Women endure a slew of disadvantages when it comes to financial security. Though it’s cheekily referred to as the “pink tax”, the additional cost women incur for personal-care products, toys, clothing, dry cleaning, health care, mortgages, and vehicle maintenance is no joking matter. It inflates our budgets, limits our ability to save, and sometimes hinders our ability to access affordable and safe sources of credit.
Based on that semi-intense description of the pink tax, you may think it’s already been made illegal to charge someone more on the basis of their gender. But that’s not true. There’s no federal law prohibiting companies from charging different prices for products that are identical (or very similar), but which are marketed by gender. At least not currently.
Only one U.S. municipality — Miami-Dade County — has banned this practice. California enacted a similar restriction in 1995, but it applies only to the pricing of services. New York City followed in 1998.
On top of the pink tax, women still earn less than their male counterparts. The average woman is paid 82 cents for every $1 her male colleagues earn; the discrepancy is much worse for women of color.
When you’re paying more for basic goods and services from birth until death — just because you’re female — it’s easy to understand why so many women are pushing to “Ax the Pink Tax.”
About Michael Cone, Esq.
Michael Cone, Esq. is a Partner at FisherBroyles, LLP. He is a Customs, International Trade, and Regulatory Compliance Attorney, with more than 20 years of experience in federal regulatory compliance, customs, and international trade law and has been featured in print and broadcast media including the New York Times, NPR, CNN Money, and CBS News.
In 2007, the New York Times featured Mr. Cone's lawsuit challenging gender-based customs duties on its front page.
On March 8, 2016, Mr. Cone launched his website Pink.Tax, which coincided with International Women’s Day. The goal of Pink.Tax is to raise grassroots awareness of how women are disadvantaged by gender-based price discrimination affecting retail consumer goods and services like razors and haircuts, and to fight against this global phenomenon called the "Pink Tax". Its broader secondary goal is to identify, raise awareness about, and fight other gender-based financial discrimination against women (such as lower pay for equal work, known as the "Gender Pay Gap").
About the Show
Comments, questions or suggestions for the show? Email us at talkwealthpodcast@gmail.com.
To learn more about DebtWave Credit Counseling, visit our website or connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
To learn more about the San Diego Financial Literacy Center, visit our website or connect with us on Facebook and Twitter.
Women endure a slew of disadvantages when it comes to financial security. Though it’s cheekily referred to as the “pink tax”, the additional cost women incur for personal-care products, toys, clothing, dry cleaning, health care, mortgages, and vehicle maintenance is no joking matter. It inflates our budgets, limits our ability to save, and sometimes hinders our ability to access affordable and safe sources of credit.
Based on that semi-intense description of the pink tax, you may think it’s already been made illegal to charge someone more on the basis of their gender. But that’s not true. There’s no federal law prohibiting companies from charging different prices for products that are identical (or very similar), but which are marketed by gender. At least not currently.
Only one U.S. municipality — Miami-Dade County — has banned this practice. California enacted a similar restriction in 1995, but it applies only to the pricing of services. New York City followed in 1998.
On top of the pink tax, women still earn less than their male counterparts. The average woman is paid 82 cents for every $1 her male colleagues earn; the discrepancy is much worse for women of color.
When you’re paying more for basic goods and services from birth until death — just because you’re female — it’s easy to understand why so many women are pushing to “Ax the Pink Tax.”
About Michael Cone, Esq.
Michael Cone, Esq. is a Partner at FisherBroyles, LLP. He is a Customs, International Trade, and Regulatory Compliance Attorney, with more than 20 years of experience in federal regulatory compliance, customs, and international trade law and has been featured in print and broadcast media including the New York Times, NPR, CNN Money, and CBS News.
In 2007, the New York Times featured Mr. Cone's lawsuit challenging gender-based customs duties on its front page.
On March 8, 2016, Mr. Cone launched his website Pink.Tax, which coincided with International Women’s Day. The goal of Pink.Tax is to raise grassroots awareness of how women are disadvantaged by gender-based price discrimination affecting retail consumer goods and services like razors and haircuts, and to fight against this global phenomenon called the "Pink Tax". Its broader secondary goal is to identify, raise awareness about, and fight other gender-based financial discrimination against women (such as lower pay for equal work, known as the "Gender Pay Gap").
About the Show
Comments, questions or suggestions for the show? Email us at talkwealthpodcast@gmail.com.
To learn more about DebtWave Credit Counseling, visit our website or connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
To learn more about the San Diego Financial Literacy Center, visit our website or connect with us on Facebook and Twitter.
Intro: 0:09
Welcome to Talk Wealth to Me, a safe space podcast where we chat about anything and everything related to personal finance.
Felipe Arevalo: 0:19
The information contained in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It does not constitute as accounting, legal, tax or other professional advice.
Chase Peckham: 0:31
Hello and welcome to another edition of Talk Wealth to me where we discuss everything personal finance. In this week's episode way, talk to a fascinating gentleman, an attorney who is out of New York City that is, fighting a battle that I'm not sure most people are familiar with. And I have to admit most of us weren't, but it's something called the Pink Tax. Yes, that is a thing, and it hits us on so many levels in this society. You're not gonna want to miss this episode.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 1:11
I mean, last night it's funny. I still think about this. I actually bought pizza, I bought spaghetti sauce, and I bought, and I had spaghetti in the meal that I could have fed four people on it. It actually cost 10 bucks. And there are a lot of people in this country who are not just living paycheck to paycheck, but struggling to put even pasta on their tables. So you know, when you when you look at it at the delta between what you know, a woman has to spend for even just her own care, Um, versus what a man does for haircuts, dry cleaning and stuff like that. Although you there's a California law which has really effectively prevented the disparity, and services significantly, I mean, this is this is really dollars to these people. They focused on this, those people who have to worry about, you know, and work hard to save pennies, conserve pennies. This will be valuable.
Chase Peckham: 2:13
And that's what's so fascinating about what you're doing. Ah, that the whole of the idea of a pink tax. And when people hear the word tax, they automatically think about, Oh, they're adding on the tax after I make the purchase. But that's not what we're talking about here. Are we? we?
Michael Cone, Esq.: 2:31
Correct. That is not what we're talking about. The pink tax is a rubric for a variety of circumstances. Some involved taxes, some don't. Most of them don't involve taxes that result in a higher financial incident. Ah, for females than males or for being female than male. I mean, I you know, if I were going, if I had a daughter, and bought her a pink tricycle. Well, that would come out of my back pocket and might There might be a premium on it because it's pink with flowers, so it impacts. You know, men, men are stakeholders in This is well, and that's something that everybody needs to understand. This is not a battle of the sexes. And if and until we get over that misconception, until we get all the males on board, Well, we're gonna have a very hard time solving this problem,
Chase Peckham: 3:30
And so do us a little favor. As you just mentioned. It's a It's a problem. What is the pink tax and what is it that you're so heavily fighting for?
Michael Cone, Esq.: 3:40
Okay, well, the pink tax is the broad circumstance whereby it costs more to be female than a male. Okay, uh, and those involve state taxes, federal taxes and then and costs for goods. Costs for services. And so let me let me just try to be clear. There's a government pink tax behavior. Um, there's private party pink tax behavior. Those are two different things, and then they're two, two broad varieties on each side. In the government there, state tax policy and the tampon tax issue falls in state tax policy, although there is also a federal problem to that, Um, And then there's federal government, uh, gender-based taxation on import tariffs. We're all familiar now with tariffs. Federal government tariff policy is gender-based and, I believe disproportionately impacts females in the aggregate, and then if you move, too, uh, individuals and companies, you have two very clear kinds of pink taxes, which aren't truly taxes, but they fall under it conceptually on. And that is, for services. now the state of California has passed a lot started with the Civil Rights Act in 1958. And then there's the Gender Repeal Tax from 1995 or 1996 which was championed by now Congressman Jackie Speier. So right now in your in your state, it is very clear that, and it has been for a long time that you cannot charge higher prices for services based on gender alone. Okay, so so for companies that aren't subject, there's no weak protection right here involved. There's no federal law, Uh, that prohibits gender-based pricing right now. Okay, we want we want some kind of law to be there at the federal level. That's primarily what I'm fighting for. My key fight right now is to get federal legislation passed that outlaws pricing and services based on gender alone. Before I get into that a little bit more and I'm sorry, I've been talking about this for 20 years. I probably talked too much, but there's a lot to say.
Chase Peckham: 6:16
That's why that's why we have, you know, every story I look up about, this stuff you are quoted. So the fact that we have you here today -
Michael Cone, Esq.: 6:26
And you know, it hasn't made a dime, you know, but But it's not about making money. It's about right and wrong. So So then? So you have, um, gender-based pricing and service is which it's illegal in New York. It's illegal in New York City that it's not enforced. It's gender-based pricing and service is, and we're talking about haircuts and dry cleaning. Primarily, it's illegal in the state of California, where the law has enough teeth, so that's effective. It's illegal in New York City, and there's no sufficient enforcement, and the law doesn't does not have enough teeth to eliminate the problem. I could walk two blocks from my apartment here on Columbus Avenue in the Upper West Side and walk down the street and see men's haircut versus women haircuts, different priced advertising, even though there's a New York City law against it. And then yes, it's also illegal in Miami Dade County and the city of Miami that's on service is now. Then there's there's the pink tax on goods, and that's the pink tricycle example. The the example we're all familiar with right now are pink razors. I think I think that problem has mostly been rectified through public outcry. People like you working with people like me, um, making it clear, making it public that that a pink razor shouldn't be, uh, cost more because it's marketed to females. So I mean, they're they're still pink razor problems. I know that because I I audit it from time to time here in the city. So you've got state taxation, federal taxation oh then, on the private side, nongovernment side. We have private parties, companies charging more for services marketed to women, and they have them charging more for goods marketed to women. And then then you have kind of a fifth leg. And if you get a chance, I think the best article that explored all of these problems was a 2011 article in Marie Claire. Um, and it talked about all the things we just most of the things we just talked about. But in addition, things like if a woman walks into a car dealership and a man walks into a car dealership. The person likely to come out with a better deal after the haggle is the man, um, and so, you know, we're just seeing it. We're seeing it all across the board and in ways that we can identify easily. Like you walk into a hair salon and you could see the price list and in ways that are hard to identify and quantify. Like, you know, men are going to get better deal coming out of, Ah, a used car dealership or even a new car, you know, dealership then than a female. And so you know my my belief and this this is a broader picture. Uh, I think it's you know it involves our linguistics or linguistics. You know, our male-based language. I think it involves our religion. Quite frankly. Um, you know, we need some female religious heroes that aren't either Virgins or prostitutes, right? There ought to be something healthy in the middle on. I think it's, ah, broad, societal, uh, problem where So that that's not pink stuff. That's that's a broader issue about
Chase Peckham: 9:59
that says something about society.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 10:02
Yeah, that does say something about society, but But we need to stay focused on the pink tax because there are some things that we can better that we can immediately fix about the pink tax and that is in the first place. Federal legislation outlawing purely gender-based pricing and services, And what I say is, uh, you know, the cost of the haircut should depend on what's on your head, not what's in your pants, right? It sounds maybe a little racy, but it's not attended to be racy. It's the truth. When you walk into a hair salon, you should look at your head what's on the top of your head, and that should be what you have to pay for a haircut now I'm growing my hair really long. So not my hair is way below my shoulders right now and I'm doing this as part of my pink tax efforts, part of my self-education and part of my activism. And I know right now that it costs, it takes less time and effort to cut my long hair. Then it did when my hair was short. Because you don't have to but bother with any cow licks right now. I could just walk in, and they can They just take scissors to the bottom of
Chase Peckham: 11:14
They're trimming your your split ends, right? They're just kind of trimming it up.
Katie Utterback: 11:21
Well, and just out of curiosity. How much are you? How much are you being charged for a hair trim? Because I recently also got my hair trimmed and I paid nearly $300 for this haircut.
Chase Peckham: 11:33
Wait. Did you get a color too?
Katie Utterback: 11:35
I got highlights, but that's separate the the cut is in is $125 on its own. Yes.
Chase Peckham: 11:45
And you didn't do anything, Major. You didn't do anything crazy?
Katie Utterback: 11:47
No, I just got a trim. I just gotta trim. I didn't do layering. I didn't do anything like that. It's just $125 for me to get in that chair. That's not including the extra amount that's put on because I have thick hair
Michael Cone, Esq.: 12:04
I have a barber down the street you should visit, you know?
Chase Peckham: 12:05
Ah, man. Oh, man.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 12:11
But what I'm what I'm gonna do is I'm not very far away from having absolutely undeniably unmistakable quote girl's hair. Okay? I mean, my hair is long and and I'm an attorney. I'm on official attorney. What I found is I put in a ponytail. Nobody cares in the often. Some people. I mean, it's like new wave and everything, but I'm going to go in not pretty soon and start asking you for you know, I like a mens, a mens, haircut, and they're gonna look at me. And because I clearly have quote women's hair and it's it's a joke. And look, all these these laws are the laws that are in place are effective and their market-oriented right? We don't We don't want to um defeat the market here. We're not trying to defeat the market. A haircut price should be based on the time and skill, right?
Chase Peckham: 13:05
Right.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 13:05
And effort required to cut your hair. Your gender shouldn't have anything to do with that price. So you know you out in California? I'm not sure. Katie, what happened with your situation because, you know, if a man had the same stuff done he oughta be paying 300 bucks too out in California. Um, and but But almost all the rest of the country people, you know, it's just normal. You walk in. It's like women haircuts are higher rate than men's haircuts
Chase Peckham: 13:34
Should I tell you, I spent 18 bucks?
Katie Utterback: 13:38
No, but I do want to bring up this. So the reason I brought up the price of my haircut in the state of California is that I think related to the pink tax. Ah, a lot of arguments saying that the pink tax is, just kind of some women being sensitive or the rise of quote, feminism or something is that it's a choice. It's a choice to get the $300 haircut versus the 18. Yes, I could go get an $18 haircut, but there's also these beauty standards to be a woman in the workforce also, And if your hair doesn't look a certain way at a certain level. You start getting dinged for it. In a way, you may not get a promotion.
Chase Peckham: 14:20
But could you tell the difference between the $18 haircut and the $300 haircut?
Felipe Arevalo: 14:25
Yeah, because she couldn't get an $18 haircut.
Chase Peckham: 14:27
Sure she could. She goes to my barber. I guarantee you he's not gonna charge or more do. I don't think she wants the Clippers going on.
Chase Peckham: 14:36
I agree. I think what she's trying to say is because her hair has to be a certain style. Quote unquote should be a different style. Um, she's more inclined to have to pay the $300 one. where if her hair was cut, like yours or mine. Um, you know, people would look at her differently and say, Oh, wow. Interesting haircut, Katie. If she had yours and I's haircut.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 15:01
Katie brings up a really, really interesting point. And that is the underlying question of whether through advertising and other societal pressures, females are taught that they have to pay more for this kind of stuff. Okay, to be acceptable, to be pretty, to be professional, whatever it is. And, uh, and I think the answer to that is yes, indeed. Uh, we We bombard females with advertising that they have to invest all this money and they have to have flowers and wear pink to be female, pretty and successful. And so I personally believe that advertising is in part responsible for some of the higher costs that women pay. Now. You know, I also believe in choice, and there's nothing wrong with paying more for stuff. And we have to keep that alive and and we will lose this fight if we eliminate choice, whether it's always, uh, right, we're gonna lose the fight. We don't want to lose this fight. And you know, if it's a men's razor, let's say a man's razor. Let's say it costs more because the steel has to be harder because our you know well, first of all, we've taught women that they have to shave their legs, um, to be female. Now I'm sorry. There's so much to talk about here, but this is just another one. We've taught women that they have to shave their legs to be feminine. It's an absurd proposition, right, because either there's natural selection or we are created by a divine being. In either case, women were intended to have hair on their legs. How could it possibly be that having hair on the legs and under their arms unfeminine that right there is about advertising. It's about societal norms. It's about some other things, too. But But this is how far society takes it. We are distorting natural gender traits to sell stuff and so in and in our in our system. And I'm a capitalist and I'm a free market guy. What's going on right now is distorting choice, and it's distorting the free market, right? So, um so But anyway,
Chase Peckham: 17:31
so let me have your question there, that right there before you go any further. So when you talk the difference between products, right, there's you can look at a pink razor and say OK, and I don't mean to throw Gillette under the, but they are what we owe. Now you look at this, just say their most expensive razor because I mean it. It frustrates the heck out of me as a guy who has to shave daily because my face gets very dark and now it's gray. Looks terrible. So I shave every day. Let's just say we look at those to the men's higher-end brand, the women's higher and brand. And they're clearly a difference in price, whether it's $2 to $3 whatever it might be. And you might argue that, right? Well, the handle this pink, but it's more ergonomically set for a female's hand Now. Whether we know any of that is true is none of us would know that, Um, I'm sure that there's some kind of study that says that it fits the female hand better. But how do you compare something like that where its products and you can clearly say, Look, that there's a price gouge here? There's a price difference versus a service when you're talking about so many and you talk about fair trade, you know, fair trade and all those kinds of things and capitalism, when you're talking about you could get even further. I mean, one person is gonna have charged you $300 because the time they've been in business, their history of clientele, how many seats that they've sold, or how many reservations they have says that I am going to sell my haircut for 300 bucks where the other person has been in business less time might price it less because supply and demand, right? So how do you get into those? How do you fight that? I mean, I'll be honest with you right now because of my son's hair cut. My son's hair cut is $50 every time he gets a haircut. Mine's 18
Michael Cone, Esq.: 19:34
Yeah it's normal. He's a boy he's worried about how he looks. We're old
Chase Peckham: 19:39
Well he's 11 and he does He cares a lot, but he's got cowlicks that are going all over the place, and I'd argue that their hair is so fine that it's harder to cut than mine. But, I mean, that's where we get down to. It is how do you really police that? How How How can you tell?
Michael Cone, Esq.: 19:56
That all those are all crucial core questions, Right? So, um, look the haircut. Uh, you know, you could look in terms of policing, which is really, really important, right? You know who's charging it? They're right in front of you when you walk in. Now in terms of the price. Yeah, You want the market. You want a young upstart, they're gonna work harder for less. That's how it works, right? And the older established person you can rely on reputation and turn business away, says you know fooey on you. You pay 300 bucks or I don't have time for you. That's that's good market stuff. But what we don't want to have happen is hey, you know that that established person says, Well, you're a woman. I'm gonna charge you 300 bucks and and the man is only gonna pay $250 for an hour of my time. That can't happen. All right? That's not That doesn't happen in California. Why doesn't it happening in California to any detectable degree? Because the law has teeth and this is an enforceable law. So let's talk about enforcement and policing and what makes sense in terms of a lot. And I'm sticking Chase with your ideas because you're going to get back to the issue of of Goods. And this illustrates how the services are different from goods. Services are easy to police. They have just a couple actors you walking in to get just to give him your shirt, your shirt or your haircut. You know how much time they spend? Yeah, they could goof around like a taxi driving a you know, uh, on unsuspecting tourists all over all over the city that could do that, but they don't really do that. But what happens in California if someone isn't aware of the law and charges gender-based pricing alone? Now the law allows them to charge more if it takes them more time? Right lot, right?
Michael Cone, Esq.: 21:50
Whether you're male or female, you can charge more if it's if it's gonna If it's really complicated stuff, no problem. But what if that person out in California, that service provider, who's who's a dry cleaner or or a salon owner doesn't know the law? Well, under California, then you know the consumer could report that person, and then the state sends him a letter. It says, Fix it In 30 days, or we're gonna hit you with $1000 fine. I believe that. I think it's $1000 in California, so it's perfect. It has teeth. They can't - 1000 bucks for a first offense is a lot and it gives them time to fix it, right? Go to rehab. Come back, make sure you're fixed in 30 days. No problem. And guess what we haven't seen. Service providers go out of business. All mass in California. They got with this. Just fine, alright?
Chase Peckham: 22:42
Okay.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 22:42
You can walk in and see the people in there, and they're working on your own stuff. It's like your right face to face with the people and then the law is excellent, because because it's serious enough, there's a heavy enough penalty to make them stop, and it gives time to cure. Now you know what comes Come to the opposite coast, you know, New York, really not as well organized here on this front. And we have the law on the books but it's, I think, $100 for the first offense and you don't get time to cure. Well, guess what? you could make more than $100 in one day by charging women more. I'm sorry you get you make more money than that right? And we have about, you know, 10 inspectors. You know, they have less than 200 citations a year, and that's the law is not working here because it's not being enforced and the penalty is not severe enough, and we don't have enough people on the ground to go out there and police it. I would be like California and your former your congressman. I'm not. I'm not sure if she's your actual Saint Diego congressman, Congressman Spire. She has introduced the Pink Tax Repeal Act in Congress, and I argue that it's fatally flawed because it's not directed solely in service is that goes after goods. So the least preferred chase to go back to your good example? I agree with you that they were a laser that was designed for a female hand, because on average, women have smaller bodies than we do in on average, they have smaller hands and then do right and and there could be other. There could be other gender days differences which are legitimate and could cause pricing different wrenches. And we want those to exist. We want to have that choice, right? And and And if we say Oh, no, you can't market to men or women, all the goods have to be the same. Then you lose that choice and you nobody's happy and you've interfered with the market in ways that are unhealthy, because we want the market to deliver gender-based advantages to us when that makes sense and we want to be willing to pay for them. If that makes
Chase Peckham: 25:05
we want choices,
Michael Cone, Esq.: 25:07
we watch choices. Yes, we want choices. Absolutely. We want color choices. We want size choices. We want design choices right with the goods. What we don't want to have is two tricycles, which are identical except for a color pink versus blue and the pink one higher. That's what we don't want to have. And we don't wanna have that in clothing. Right? And so, you know, I know from my customs attorney work that the most significant cost in a garment or any piece of clothing is the fabric. How much fabric is there again? We don't, you know, given how the market works and maybe what we want. Women's clothing can have more trim and design that sort of stuff so that that goes into the prices well. But my personal perspective belief, uh, is that we are not in a position right now from a societal position to outlaw gender-based pricing on goods. It won't work as a law once again. California is in the vanguard on this about two years ago, and you can read about this in an LA Times story about two years ago, maybe three years past, faster as I get older California and one of your state,
Chase Peckham: 26:33
Ben Suissa.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 26:33
Legislators. Pardon me,
Chase Peckham: 26:35
Ben Suissa
Michael Cone, Esq.: 26:41
yeah, you know, talk. What? What? What? What do you know about this issue?
Chase Peckham: 26:45
Just what you were gonna tell me. It just that he was trying. He was trying to put that into this into, ah, into a bill, and it got slapped down pretty quick. There was no way to police it. Basically,
Michael Cone, Esq.: 26:57
there's no way to police it, and there's no way to police it. And it's going to breed all kinds of of inefficient lawsuits. I mean, you think prop 60 I mean, we prop 65. That causes problems for all kinds of importers all over the country. You guys didn't get inundated with these warnings about how everything you see going down the street is going to give you birth, you know, cause birth defects, if the federal government were to pass a law. And this is this is the problem, in my view with the Pink Tax Repeal Act that was introduced by Jackie Speier. Congressman Speier again. She she was the one who championed the pink tax or the gender repeal tax legislation. in your state did a study in 1995 came that it was very thorough and said, Huh. It looks like women pay over. There was an exact number, but it was over $1300 a year more for goods and services than men for the same kind of services. But here's the problem with with goods, aside from the fact that there could be totally legitimate gender based designs that create pricing differentials, which is something we would want right. If the design makes sense for us, you're perfect example of an ergonomic handle for a smaller hand, right? Let's not pretend that men and women are the same, that our bodies are the same, that they're the same size because they're not right. We can't do that. So So the problem with goods is, you know, we have international number of problems trying to go after police goods and say the the way the legislation reads right now is it's pending in Congress. It's dead in the water for the same reasons that that gentleman, your your state legislators bill, was dead in the water. How do you enforce something that says you can't charge different prices, on you know, goods marketed based on gender. Um, where the goods for the different genders are, Quote substantially similar. I'm an attorney. Substantially similar? You're talking four decades of litigation on what that means. Okay. I mean, what the heck, is substantially similar. Well, what if you have an ergonomically designed handle for a smaller hand for a female? I mean, is that substantially similar or not? It's just It's just there's too much litigation, and here there are other problems with that. So who is responsible for this now? Our supply chains are international and each actor in the international supply chain has a markup opportunity. So let's say let's go back to the pink tricycle and the blue tricycle and it's going to be made by a company in China. And that company in China is going to sell it to an importer who might sell it to a distributor or that imported might sell it to water. So you have that states a real simple, very common type of supply chain Chinese factory with the U. S. Importer who designed that thing for Wal Mart. And you have three players Well, that Chinese factory might say, Ah ha. They've asked depicted blue ones. You know, we're going to charge the importer more for the pink one because we know we can get away with it, right? Cause you know Daddy's are gonna buy special pink tricycle for their, girl, because Daddy's have been told that if they're girls have take tricycles, they're they're prettier and more more like princesses. Okay, so then there's the middleman in the middleman imports that good in the middle man or middle women. However you want to call, it also has a markup, and then it goes to Wal Mart. So So who? Who if If, if the factory, if the factory charges a different price and the importer just takes it 40% mark up across the board and then sells it to Wal Mart and Wal Mart marks it up 40% those those prices, you're gonna be different at retail. Is that Wal Mart's fault? Walmart have to go in and police what? Substantially similar not. And make sure that things that might be marketed to females versus nails but are substantially similar are priced. The same
Chase Peckham: 31:08
comes up to profit lies to me, right? I mean, they're not going to it comes up to profit and loss to me. They're gonna They're not gonna lose money on the girl's bike because they want to price in the same. They're gonna whatever they paid for it, they're gonna mark it up the same amount.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 31:24
They're gonna mark it up the same amount, and you're gonna have a different price. And if they're going to get sued by plaintiff's lawyers for that for 40 years, you're gonna you're not gonna have pink, blue and green bicycles anymore. You're gonna have one color, Okay, I mean that. And I'm giving another really good example. Why the federal government Uncle Sam's kind of perverted. I apologize when it comes to this tariff policy. Right? He's your creepy uncle, because with footwear and clothing a significant amount of footwear and clothing, including gets hit with different tariffs based on whether it was imported for females or males, and the worst areas are, uh, leather shoes for women. So the tariffs can get highly detailed and it can describe commodities in very precise ways. Footwear with, you know, leather uppers and and soles of plastics or rubber, you know, and the certain size and then the tariff says for men, youth and boys. Eight and 1/2 percent important duty, called tarriffs. For other persons. Okay, quote other females. Yeah, that's females in the footwear area of the tariff. Other other persons. Um, it's 10%. It's 10% now. I've run the numbers. I haven't run the numbers recently, but that right there is about $60 million a year and higher import taxes on on footwear imported for women versus for males or females versus males and another part of the tarriff schedule. It's higher men's goods or higher men's shirts are higher, so on so forth. But the tarriff schedulekicks you were accounts they really get you. You know you're in your key items. But where patent shirts, a man, footwear from females. In that,
Chase Peckham: 33:23
let me ask you, do you think that because women typically buy more shoes than men do?
Michael Cone, Esq.: 33:28
Well, this is That's exactly the problem. What is the explanation and the explanation you just offered is the most common sense explanation, and that's why I say they kick you wear it counts. All right, we've got We've we've, you know, society is convinced women that they need to buy all these shoes. You know, I wore my same black wing tip shoes for decades. But who that was on casual Friday I'd wear something else. And yet we've got women in a situation where they have to look different every day. Or there's quote, sloppy, right, that sort of thing. But anyway, that's that's why I say that the the the tariff schedule kicks you where it counts. Is the go after gender like, really sensitive? You know, special areas within where the tariffs have the biggest financial impact are those things that are kind of gender spit, gender, intensively. Men. We like our cotton shirt. We love those those get hit with, like 5% 5 more, uh, like it's like 16% for men's cotton shirts. There's a 10% for women something like that, but I've I've run the numbers, and then the aggregate. It comes out a little bit higher financial impact for women's goods imported for females versus males. But I suspect that over time I have I have two problems that over time I have no doubt that the women's goods in the aggregate have been hit historically much harder than men, Males goods. And the other part is, uh, the opportunity to create mischief is it's horrendous here and want eliminated. But let's go back to this goods part that Chase is talking about goods, you know. Can we police it? Well, the federal government does not have the moral authority, the police, the pricing of goods that are marketed to genders at retail. Why? Because the federal government charges gender paid based import taxes on shoes and on clothing. Most of our clothing is imported. Most of our shoes are imported. So how can the government go to Walmart say, Hey, you know you need me now the federal law that even though we're charging different tariffs import taxes on the goods based on gender, you you can't take your normal markup on that. All right, it's absurd.
Chase Peckham: 35:54
So direct conflict of interest.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 35:58
It's a conflict of interest, and in law, we would say you have unclean hands. You can't complain about a problem that you are causing, in part because you know that one and 1/2 percent that's coming in on all that leather footwear it's not just 1.5% gets marked up down the line by the time gets to retail. That could be 5% more, you know. Then then 1.5%. So the government has unclean hands in this discussion, and then I'll give you another. So so you have multiple players in the supply chain who's responsible for the differential between a pink tricycle and a blue tricycle, huh? When it comes to leather gloves, footwear, and garments, a very significant portion of them are taxed differently by the government on import. And then, on top of that, you have manufacture suggested retail price. MSRP's. You probably heard about it. So if you're a drug store and you're selling all these cosmetics and razors and all that stuff and their major brands were a lot of those brands, we have an M S, R. P. And if those stores sell below that, the brands would say, Forget it. We're not gonna sell to you anymore. Now me personally, I think that's price-fixing, and it sure does sound like it. But the Supreme Court has dealt with this, and there's a very old case of over 100 years old called Colgate, where they allowed manufacturer's suggested retail prices for reasons we don't won't go into during this discussion, but I So I feel that the pink tax on goods needs to be solved at the grassroots level by people like us and by purchasers of retail. This is where your listeners should listen up because, uh, there are a lot of tricks in retail. A pink razor or antiperspirant in a pink plastic container, maybe more. Then a blue razor or antiperspirant in a blue plastic container. Uh, and it sometimes the tricky it gets tricky. So, for example, you might pick up a male and female version of cologne or antiperspirant, and the sticker price may be the same, but the female version may have half an ounce less than the man version in CNN. If you look at the CNN video on this, I think they came up with a couple of examples like that. But there are videos out there where this is. This is part of the trick. It looks the same. Look, the volume looks the same, but it's not.
Felipe Arevalo: 38:52
It's great, and I think it's something we're
Michael Cone, Esq.: 38:54
fascinated.
Felipe Arevalo: 38:55
I'm wondering what kind of effect can a shift in supply or in demand? Can that trickle down all the way down through the supply channels? If consumers want to, for example, you know, rallied together and create a shift in the demand.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 39:17
I think that's happening now, and I actually think it's happening now. I think I mean, Target has come out already and said that they're not, You know, that they are fighting gender-based pricing at retail. There has been a correction. It isn't it isn't a complete correction, but you know, the razor issue and the way people like you and people like me. We're putting serious pressure on the companies to fix this problem because while it may rob, men's goods are sometimes higher and men certainly do suffer discrimination, prejudice as well. When you're talking about pricing at retail for service is in goods. The in general that hits the nose harder than males and they're listening now. I was I'm going to do a pink tax panel here under the auspices of EU changing European Union Chamber of Commerce in January February and were lining up some good speakers and Panelists. But a woman working with me on that sent me a Burger King ad. Have you seen the Burger King pink tax ad?
Katie Utterback: 40:28
No!
Michael Cone, Esq.: 40:29
the Burger King Burger King has an ad where woman, customer, single customer. You get these that chicken fries, but it's in a pink container, so you have to pay more. And then and then there's like astonishment. An argument with a customer after customer than Burger King comes out and says, Fight pink tax. Now that's opportunistic. Like Burger King doesn't have any, you know it doesn't have a dog in this fight. It's trying to sell Burger King food by using a public platform attacking the pink tax.
Chase Peckham: 41:04
That's exactly what this is, where we are marketing,
Michael Cone, Esq.: 41:07
right? But it was marketing. It is marketing, but But you think of it. Burger King is aware of this. They're gonna use it. I mean That is part of the move. It is part of the awakening that is going on right now across the country. And yes, it's marketing. Yes, it's opportunistic. But at first I thought, Yeah, OK, guys, you're trying to use this just to sell more fast food, and then I thought World, any help helps right now, I mean, because we need to get these laws past and yeah, we need to get the lodge past and And so, um, Anyway, uh, I'll let you guys move this conversation well, I think in another direction, because I will just keep going,
Chase Peckham: 41:51
The question I have for you and this is this is a whole different one. And this is where we really talk about services or a product in general that men don't use because we don't need to. And I'll have I. Literally Three weeks ago, my wife asked me if I would stop by Target. I was on my way and pick her up some feminine products, some tampons. And of course, every man loves to go do that. Um, I went in to Target, and I didn't know where any of it was and I had to ask not to mention that the five million different types there are, and the writing is so small on all of them that I don't know the difference between, and I'm not gonna get graphic on this, But there are, like so many different ones. And of course I didn't buy the right one. But here's the thing. My wife ended up going back because I didn't. They all look the same
Felipe Arevalo: 42:47
You gotta get a picture.
Chase Peckham: 42:49
Even with the picture, she did send me a picture. But even with that, writing on about which one she needed was so small and all the boxes looked exactly the same that I thought that I was still getting the right one that beyond that is when I paid for it, I realized that there was a sales tax on it. And for the longest time, for some reason, I had thought that feminine hygiene products were not taxable. I thought they were, like, technically, like food. And
Michael Cone, Esq.: 43:19
yeah,
Chase Peckham: 43:19
Then when I found out we were gonna have you I'm like, Oh, my God, I literally just experienced this. So what? How is that possible?
Michael Cone, Esq.: 43:26
That's great. Okay, but that is that's a excellent question. And wonderful to have a real-life story to Help highlight what's going on here. So, in tax policy, there's generally nothing wrong with taxing anything. Okay, if you want to have ah state tax policy or a federal tax policy that everything you buy has a tax on it, who's to object? You're never gonna win that fight in the law and and then then, however, policy comes in and they say, Let's have some tax exemptions because from a policy perspective, we want things to be exempt from tax. Wanna promote health. We want to promote festivities. Want to promote worship. Uh, and so then you get into the exemptions. This is the problem. Although I'm I am actually dissident evolution in my in my head. But let's talk about the problem first. So the problem with a tampon tax? The first problem is that in various states, and I have not, you know, I have a day job, and I have not gone through the 50 states to look at every look at all of their state tax to see what they're doing in terms of exemptions. But the problem? The biggest problem with the tampon tax was in states where they had medical exemptions for purely male goods, but not truly female goods. Best example. Rogaine. Okay, this this This was this did happen. It maybe exists Still, in some places. Rogaine was a a medical device. Remember? Right or medical supplement that state some state taxes exempted from their sales tax, and yet feminine hygiene products from that. Now, this very issue percolated through the Legislature and the court all the way to the Supreme Court of Illinois over, like, a 15 year period. And they finally got on board and they exempted, uh, feminine hygiene products as well. Like, two years ago in the state of New York, we had the same exact problem with Rogaine versus feminine hygiene products. And three or four women filed an equal protection case. Uh, because you can file an equal protection case against a state or federal government, we can't file on equal protection case against the dry cleaner. Right? So they're not subject to the protection clause of the Constitution. So? So the four women filed in the state of New York and the state of New York Legislature fixed right away. Now, though, there are probably other states right now in the country that provide exemption for purely male needs. These I mean, you know, Rogaine. I mean, what else is there like? Another medical, purely medical common, you know, over the counter Medical needs are specific to us? Baldness. This is the only one I can think of, their probably others.
Chase Peckham: 46:41
Maybe ED products coming up here? Are those over the counter?
Michael Cone, Esq.: 46:48
They are?
Chase Peckham: 46:49
No, I don't think they are.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 46:51
Wow, I don't think they are, either. I don't think they're over the counter that, but But, you know, so, anyway, they could still be states out there that that exempt, um, certain types of prescriptions or medical products that are designed for males, but not females. And that's a huge problem. The next step. And this is my my I I want to hear from Kate. We should hear from Katie on this issue. But let me tell you where my sense has evolved on the tampon tax. It's come from a purely academic perspective. As a trade lawyer that says taxation on everything is fine, so long as it's not discriminatory. To, huh?,We should probably exam things like tampons and diapers. Um, state policy, regardless of whether we're exempting mail items, Huh? So I mean, Katie, do you have anything you wanted?
Katie Utterback: 47:56
You know, I mean, I'm talking. I agree with you. I mean, I it seems like it should be an all or nothing kind of thing. And I was listening. To, um, a Manhattan Assembly member Linda Rosenthal. She gave a Ted talk on, um, how she kind of accidentally became a period activist. And what she was saying was just in an effort to try to make sure that women and girls had access to tampons and pads so that they could get to work, they could get to school. Um is a struggle. And she was saying, It's not right that fruit roll-ups qualify for being tax-free, at least in New York, but tampons and pads would be taxed.
Chase Peckham: 48:36
You can argue that that's food,
Michael Cone, Esq.: 48:37
right?
Katie Utterback: 48:38
It is. But I mean, if if a state is gonna have ah, tax-free weekend, for example, before back to school shopping to try to lower the cost, What about women? I mean, it's not like I signed up to get this. I was born this way, and
Chase Peckham: 48:52
I'm 100% in agreement
Katie Utterback: 48:54
you know? So I'm 29 I went on to There's a website where you can figure out as a woman based on your birthday, how much you paid into the pink tax. So far, I'm 29. I've estimated that I've almost paid in $41,000. It's over $40,000 that I've already paid in the pink tax. Think about what I could go with that money.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 49:19
It's it's a horrendous. It's a horrendous problem. And with the tampon tax, you know, something we as. Guys have to really think hard about because wait, don't go through that. I mean I mean, there's it's truly, a medical situation, right?
Chase Peckham: 49:36
For sure.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 49:36
Women are I don't want, you know, they're losing blood. Um and, uh, they can you know, they need those items to go to work. Thank you, Katie, for talking about that, cause again. I'm I'm handicapped since I don't life a fullperspective, since I don't But gosh, let you talk me. Some people can't afford this stuff,
Chase Peckham: 49:59
and they need
Michael Cone, Esq.: 49:59
I'm I'm living and they need it. I'm at 92 and Broadway. You go up one mile north here, you know, and probably even right around where I live in some of the public housing. And, you know, there could be a question is whether these are affordable for young girls who are in high school, right? Or maybe in elementary school, right elementary school in high school, and women who need to go to work, and they're they're they're going paycheck to paycheck. You know that minimum wage jobs and we need to alleviate the financial burden of buying these feminine hygiene products. And so I have come round to trying to try to understand this. Better is, I think about it and talk to people like you. I think that we should, in terms of a tax policy, if we're going to have a back to school tax holiday. If we are going to exempt clothing, let me give you an example for my real life here. So a real life example for me today. I bought a couple Christmas presents for my son today, and one and I bought him two pair of socks, and I actually had brought him something else on Amazon. And I looked at the tax because now Amazon is collecting tax. And then I looked at the tax to be collected on clothing in his ear from Amazon, even though it was in New York. Why? Because purchases of clothing and footwear below 100 some dollars are tax exempt now. Why if if if someone was gonna buy feminine hygiene, she's
Chase Peckham: 51:31
which is gonna be under $100 right away.
Katie Utterback: 51:34
Yeah, I was gonna say I grew up in Minnesota and there was no clothing tax
Chase Peckham: 51:38
that makes no sense at all.
Katie Utterback: 51:40
Right?
Michael Cone, Esq.: 51:41
It makes no sense from a policy perspective. And you know what? I think I hate? I don't hate to say this, but, you know, I'll say it is just kind of Ah, a manner of speech. I hate to say it, but I think this problem is because we haven't had enough female legislators, but we haven't had enough people making these laws who are actually female and understand this issue.
Katie Utterback: 52:03
I feel like standing up and just applauding
Michael Cone, Esq.: 52:08
And so the interesting thing about the tampon tax choose that it's a global phenomenon,
Chase Peckham: 52:14
Right?
Michael Cone, Esq.: 52:14
If you If you Yeah, it's a global phenomenon, and this is where we're headed. This is gonna happen. Okay, this is gonna happen. That's that's kind of an exciting part of what we're watching. We right here right now is we are moving. The whole world is moving towards. You were gonna have the elimination of tampon tax. Not in every country, but in a lot of countries. And we're gonna have the elimination of the pink tax in the $1300 a year this has happened. This is this is this is this is the century of the woman and this is the also the century of the Chinese. But it's also the century of the woman. And we're seeing this movement and the pink tax. I'll tell you what I see from my website, and I've been so busy because I'm a tarriff lawyer with Trump tariffs and all that kind of stuff that I haven't had a lot of time to maintain it recently. But I keep getting these types of communications that put us in contact, and we keep seeing these articles put in place and now Burger King is picking it up. This movement is gaining momentum, and I get about 6 to 7000 hits on my website every month from all over the world.
Chase Peckham: 53:25
Wow.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 53:25
So this is Yeah, this is This is this is the proverbial snowball going down the hill. And it's an exciting place to be. And we need, like, you know, who's really crucial is you guys. It's the journalist. It's the people who are actually getting this in the news. For people like you, you're used, you know? Yes, I've been fighting it now. I've been doing this for like 20 years. But without people like you broadcasting this issue, uh, and creating a dialogue for everyone to hear and participate in, this wouldn't happen.
Katie Utterback: 54:07
So, Michael, for our listeners who want to get more involved or maybe connect with your website and see what kind of advocacy or grassroots work that they could participate in. Do you have any recommendations?
Michael Cone, Esq.: 54:21
Well, I would recommend first the grassroots attitude, which is for those people to become aware and to start talking to their family members and their friends about it. And this means right? So So I have a lot of materials on my website. My Web site collects more material than anything else. I need to, you know, there are some stuff it's not up there that needs some work, but it remains the biggest clearinghouse of materials of all kinds, so people should check out pink.tax and read things about there and the FAQ's are Very, um, informative. And I think they're pretty brief, Uh, and then they should vote with their purse and their pen. Now it's much easier to just go in, too. And this is where the invisible hand of the market comes in. If you've got higher price pink razors that are sitting on the shelf right, those retailers know it right, believe they know it fast. They know it every month, if not every week. And they talk to their suppliers and so on and so forth and and and that invisible hand of the market is very powerful.
Chase Peckham: 55:34
I think that's the way you're gonna do in the most. I think that's the way that I think that's the way honestly, you're gonna have. We as citizens they're gonna have any kind of impact is Look, how do you impact anybody? You hit him in the wallet, and if you're not buying their products, then they're gonna They are going to change. They are going to adapt exactly right, and not because we come out and say, We want you to just don't buy their product.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 56:04
That's right. That's absolutely right. And what will happen if higher-priced goods for females are left on the shelves? They know what's going on that I can't express to you in the language. I would prefer to use, since this could be going on the air. But they are scared. They are scared right now, but they are afraid. They're gonna lose some of their margins. They're afraid that if they can't do these markets anymore on their goods for females, they're not gonna make it much money. I personally don't believe that's true.
Chase Peckham: 56:38
I don't believe that's true.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 56:39
Maybe they could, you know. But maybe maybe it is. But it doesn't matter if that's true. You know, they if they're charging a premium for female good, they shouldn't be. And it's in the market will solve it. Because if those things were wrecked on the shelves now and they and they got pink and flowers and all kinds of other stuff To create to prey on the insecurities that fostered through advertising, Otherwise they will know why they know the big companies are very aware of what's happening right now in the marketplace. And Burger King and Gilette did a toxic mail advertising. I actually think that they were trying to sell razors to females through that advertising, but who knows? So anyway, I think the market is an extremely powerful the invisible hand of the market, is extremely powerful and it is the best tool and so people need to become educated consumers and brilliant and look at labels. When there walking through the aisles in the stores. And if it is a something that's market that has a gender component to it, whether it's whether it's a tricycle shirt Uh uh, antiperspirant, cologne, razor compare. Spend the time to compare the price and by the lower price. One. Whether it's market for males or to females, if you otherwise like it, that's a very powerful tool, and that's voting with the purse and then voting with the pen. If if if consumers will take the time to get online and write a two-line email to a company. Or how about a little paragraph? Hey, do you know, do your someone? So I went shopping today and, you know, I actually noticed that there was a higher price on this item and therefore I bought the male version. Just wanted you to know, you know, love Samantha. You know something like that, right?
Michael Cone, Esq.: 58:40
And they will hear that they're listening to that. They're aware, but I do agree that just being an intelligent, uh, shopper and disciplined shopper and buying a cheaper thing at the at, the retail will do probably the most to help fix this. You know you could People. Yeah, people, People can also write their Congress person and say, Hey, you know, we want this solved at the federal level. Now again, I think there's this terrible problem where the Pink Tax Repeal Act introduced by Congress Speier, and she's introduced it three times. There's been not not. They have a good excuse. Now they're busy with impeachment. They've been busy with President Trump it. Even before all those problems came in, it didn't go anywhere. And it's not gonna go anywhere so long as that consumer good prom is there. If we sever that just passing on services, you know, we would knock down a lot for every woman per year. Who you, who goes to a hair salon and uses dry-cleaning in Lincoln, Nebraska, Grand Rapids in Michigan, my hometown or anywhere else it will. You know it'll do a lot,
Chase Peckham: 59:58
you know. It does ring true. It used to be in the old days. You'd go in and you would see right up on the wall. It would say men's hair cut women's hair cut with certain prices. Now, you don't see that?
Michael Cone, Esq.: 1:0:08
Yeah,
Chase Peckham: 1:0:08
Anywhere.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 1:0:09
Yeah, especially. You guys don't see it in California. I You know this This person I'm working with here of the European Union Chamber of Commerce sheets. She took a picture. She's out in Brooklyn. She was in Brooklyn and she was walking down the street. She's become sensitized to it. She took a picture and send it to me. You know, the women's hair cut? $35. Men's $25 right in Brooklyn. Um, and it's illegal here. That's, you know, cause got in the rest of the country it's like this. And everybody accepts it. And guess who else accepts it? The women accepted.
Katie Utterback: 1:0:41
Yeah, well, hopefully we change some minds today.
Chase Peckham: 1:0:44
Yeah, I hope so. We can't thank you enough for your time cause this I mean, it was fascinating and eye-opening, and I'll be honest with you a little bit irritating, uh, that that this even exists, but, you know,
Michael Cone, Esq.: 1:0:59
yeah,
Chase Peckham: 1:1:00
the only people that can make this happen. My dad used to tell me this when I was a kid. He would say, Sonny, you got to do something about it, cause if if people like you don't. Then nothing will ever get done. And
Michael Cone, Esq.: 1:1:11
that's absolutely right.
Chase Peckham: 1:1:13
So I think the only thing I can say though there is not women can't stop buying feminine products. So no, somebody's just got it. We've got to be able to just demand that this is something that they need and whether they're states. I
Michael Cone, Esq.: 1:1:31
know we're closing, so in closing. Look, I'm a fan of Jerry Brown, but he vetoed the tampon tax tampon repeal tax out in California. He vetoed it.
Chase Peckham: 1:1:46
Somebody probably showed him what kind of outcome they're making on the sales tax of it.
Michael Cone, Esq.: 1:1:52
I think I think it's been reintroduced. But Governor Brown went up to him. He said, This is gonna take too much money from our fist, from our revenue And people said, Well, okay, well, let's tax alcohol more And he said no. So, no, it can't tax alcohol more to make up for the revenue will lose overtaxing feminine hygiene products. You guys have a real fight out there.
Chase Peckham: 1:2:18
Oh trust me
Michael Cone, Esq.: 1:2:23
talk about grassroots stuff. The Legislature passed a tax exemption for feminine hygiene and the great Governor Brown and I really mean that. I think he's a great governor, vetoed it. And that, to me, is painting the offensive. And I'm getting my dander up. E let me finish by saying that something. I think it's really crucial. I'm going to repeat it, uh, to winning this fight. And I hear it. You know, um, with I guess it was Chase. Um, but men men are stakeholders here, but aside from the fact, but that we don't want our daughters, mothers, wives, loved one's, female friends charged more just because of their chromosomes. We want to get some things back, too, right? So we want to get the color pink back. So when I grew up, I'm 55. You know, if you wore pink is a male group was a statement about your sexuality. Okay, um and we need to We need to be able to enjoy all the colors of the spectrum. Um, and you see that now who gets away with it now? It's the men who break each other's bones for a living. They get to wear, take the football players, right. The basketball players, Right now you can wear pink if you If you're a male who breaks Other males bones It's cool, but we need to. I think this is a big issue, actually that that we don't get to enjoy this color. It's an important color that's hard. I'm not supposed to cry. You can't dance together, right? Can't sleep in the same bed together. All those where this is going is also going to be really good for men in terms of the things that they have to deal with the challenges. They have a secondary issue that men have to understand that their stakeholders here and it's not about charging them more money, right. It's not about retaliating against men. It's about creating a bigger, better place, for everybody. everybody.
Chase Peckham: 1:4:38
Well, you've given us a heck of a lot to think about today, and we can't thank you enough for your time. Uh, I know that our listeners will get a heck of a lot out of this and now for a little follow up with myself, Phil and Katie.
Katie Utterback: 1:4:55
So going back to haircuts, I did some research, and the Professional Beauty Association found that the average haircut in the U. S. Costs women $45. For men. It's 34
Chase Peckham: 1:5:09
really. It's that high for men?
Felipe Arevalo: 1:5:11
$34 for a haircut?
Katie Utterback: 1:5:12
Yeah the average haircut for men is $34. For women, it's 45.
Chase Peckham: 1:5:15
That surprises me yesterday or two days ago when we we did the recording with with him. I had just got my hair cut and or no, I got my hair cut that day. Wait a minute. I'm confused. I got it that day. But anyway, my haircut was 18 bucks. I tipped him five. I walked out of there for 23 bucks. It was an old school barber. I mean, you know where they're all in line. They all talk, and they're probably not very PC. But it was just It's so fun. And they did a great job. He spent an hour on my haircut. 18 bucks
Katie Utterback: 1:5:45
WHAT?!
Felipe Arevalo: 1:5:45
Oh that's a long time.
Chase Peckham: 1:5:46
Yeah,
Felipe Arevalo: 1:5:47
I'd be mad if I sat in there for an hour.
Chase Peckham: 1:5:49
Yeah, but they took their time.
Felipe Arevalo: 1:5:50
I like that quick easy haircut. It's 11 bucks,
Chase Peckham: 1:5:54
See, but you're getting to the point. You have a very full head of hair. I do, too. But mine's thinning, you know, and so you can really notice when it grows out in a bad hair and I had a bad haircut. You will see areas where there's, like poof and everywhere. So why a good haircut?
Felipe Arevalo: 1:6:10
I have to get a haircut every three weeks. That's probably why I'd like to just quick in and out faster. We have to go more often.
Chase Peckham: 1:6:17
That's crazy. So the barber that I went to has been in business since the 1950s, and it's a dad and son's place. And then Dad now is handed it off to his son, and it's just it's got this old, unique feel and I took my son there once to get his haircut. He's like Dad, I don't really They don't do a good job in here Now he goes to this kind of more hip place that you got to go on an app and make your reservation and they serve you beers or kind of drinks or whatever. They're all there's TVs everywhere, and he just loves that. But his haircut cost me 40 bucks. It was 30 $10 we tipped him, but I mean, he spent an hour on clay's hair and it was beautiful. But my son's hair costs me 20 more bucks than mine. It's crazy
Katie Utterback: 1:7:04
Well, it sounds so. I was looking into why men's hair cuts range so much in price. And it said that your face and head shape if you want a haircut that takes that into consideration, you have to pay more. If you go to those very cheap ones, they'll just do whatever you want, but they're not gonna blend the hair in. So that's when you see those people that maybe the top doesn't blend in with the sides. Cheap haircut.
Chase Peckham: 1:7:30
So that's what you say. But I'm gonna do, you see, Does it look like it blended?
Katie Utterback: 1:7:35
Yeah, they did an incredible job,
Chase Peckham: 1:7:37
and I mentioned because he didn't want to say anything, I said, I said, Does my hair look as messed up as I think it is? And he said, I was gonna ask you if your wife cut it.
Katie Utterback: 1:7:45
Oh, uh,
Chase Peckham: 1:7:47
And I said. See, this is what I thought, and that's but there's this was a line like they don't take reservations, they only take cash, and you might walk in there one day and there's nobody and then you walk in there and you have a two-hour wait and it's It's more. The two-hour wait. And so you have to go in and you just know, All right, I've got some things to do. I'm gonna do some work, and I'm just gonna wait for my haircut. But it was worth and not for the cost. I mean, if I would pay 30 bucks if they sat and did what they did for my haircut. Um, but it's so interesting to see we were last night and now coming back and talking about women's haircuts, Carrie was saying, God, I just I I want to get I want to lose my my I want to change my want to say this in a nice way to
Katie Utterback: 1:8:35
You want to break up with your hairstylist?
Chase Peckham: 1:8:36
I want to break up with my hairstylist. Yes, that's it! Yes And I said, Well, why don't you? She said, because I just feel so bad. And I said, Is it because of the cost? She's like she's like, Well, it's the cost only because I feel like my hair doesn't turn out the way I want it. And yet this other girl that is like her apprentice has done her hair really the way she wants it. And it's $50 cheaper. So it's But yet if she Kerry said she felt like when she got her hair cut by this apprentice. And it was really because her stylist didn't have appointments until January. You know, her slate was full. And Carrie said she got the stink eye from this lady because she was getting her hair cut from her apprentice. apprentice.
Katie Utterback: 1:9:20
Oh Yeah,
Chase Peckham: 1:9:21
she felt guilty. I can't. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, Really?
Katie Utterback: 0:00
In girl world, you can't go to the same salon and just change stylists. Like your stylist will definitely give you the side-eye. It's scary to break up with your stylist.
Chase Peckham: 1:9:23
You go with us they go: You're next. You want them, right? Exactly. Way. Just gotta go. All right?
Katie Utterback: 1:9:43
Yeah, but I mean, I started going. To I've had the same stylist for about three years now. And when I started, she was new to the salon, she had the cheaper pricing. Since that time, she's been promoted, like three times, and now she actually has her own, like, hair service. So she just rents a booth from the salon. So now I have to pay, like, right. The premium. Yeah,
Chase Peckham: 1:10:07
That's the way those premium salons are. They all just rent their chair-based or their space. And then there's a different owner. And then they got so much goes to the house. So much goes to them or they just the rent. So especially for these higher-end salons, that's just the way.
Chase Peckham: 1:10:21
Yeah, The
Felipe Arevalo: 1:10:21
thing is, girls here is so much more intricate, so it doesn't do
Katie Utterback: 1:10:25
a lot more to its Not I looked it up. So men's hair cut actually takes more skill because that's when you're using more of like a buzzer clipper type. Told you. You have to know how to use that properly. You have to get the right length and everything. You have to know how to blend it all in together.
Chase Peckham: 1:10:42
Look at my neck. It's never like it just kind of tapers up now. Usually you get this crease right across the back. It
Felipe Arevalo: 1:10:50
was like when I cut my kids hair,
Chase Peckham: 1:10:52
you cut your own kid's hair?!
Felipe Arevalo: 1:10:53
It's curly. I can get away with a few mistakes
Chase Peckham: 1:10:55
goodness.
Katie Utterback: 1:10:56
Oh, no, you can't with curly hair
Chase Peckham: 1:10:58
You couldn't pay me enough to try to do that.
Katie Utterback: 1:11:01
Yeah, but for girls. So I looked it up at the salon that I go to its start haircut start at $65 for men and women. Short or long hair starts at 65.
Chase Peckham: 1:11:10
So like what? He said, his long hair. So that doesn't really make a difference from what the research you did
Katie Utterback: 1:11:14
so that this is where the price is going up. If your hair is thick, it's an extra charge. If your hair then requires extra product, you get extra charges. So for me, because I have longer thicker hair and my hair is naturally curly, my hair absorbs a lot of product. So I was looking through the receipt. I got charged three times for product Wow, three times.
Chase Peckham: 1:11:38
So that's where they're making up.
Katie Utterback: 1:11:39
That's where they're making up the difference.
Chase Peckham: 1:11:41
Yeah, because Carrie's hair is very blond, blond and is fine. She has very fine hair. It's not thick. It also she's got that opposite problem. She's tryingto have it be thickened up, and you get a hair cut cut to make it where it looks fuller and it does for two or three days. And then But she's really gonna work at it, make it better so that but that doesn't
Katie Utterback: 1:12:01
well your hair color that also plays a role too learned, which is blonde hair is apparently very dry, and so it has to be cut a certain way. Additionally, blond hair shows air pollution more than any Yeah, So they I was talking to my stylist and then choosing Yeah, like every time you come in, I need to wash those chemicals that have gone up in the hair follicle out of your hair So late
Chase Peckham: 1:12:24
are shampoos that we just don't do
Katie Utterback: 1:12:26
that Not all of them. And that's why she was telling me. That's why I recommend certain shampoos to you. And that's why I tell you, if you don't want to buy the shampoo or the conditioner from the salon because it's a little bit more expensive, that's gonna make a lot of their money. She's like, That's why I send you to Ulta. But I tell you not to buy it from Amazon because I don't know what chemicals are in that product. I don't know if it's been switched out, similar to Target WalMart, Walgreen's CVS.
Chase Peckham: 1:12:53
So Carrie does that same thing, and ever since she's used this new product and it's only sold in marketing, direct sales marketing in a friend of ours does it. It's called Moneight. And ever since then, her hair has just flourished. It's growing. In fact, it's costing us more money because a the products more. But her hair is growing thicker and longer, but she's she's gotta get her hair done more often. Okay, I guess. Healthy hair. It's worked for me like this spot on the top of my head. I have to get a haircut every four weeks. Now when I was getting my hair cut, every 5. So it's a big It's a big difference, but that a lot of times what you pay for. And I was just just think that, you know, pert. What do you know? Anything that you buy? But it's not. I mean, there are things in those over the counter that are just chemicals, right? I think Eddie Murphy said it in the movie coming to America, and he said that No, no, there's nothing in there but juices and Berries and the barber goes because all that's nothing but an ultra perm. Okay, I wonder how much he charged Eddie Murphy for that.
Felipe Arevalo: 1:13:56
What will you see with all the added fees that Katie has to pay for I can get almost a whole year's a haircut, a whole year worth of haircuts at my $11 plus $4 tip. $15 haircut for the price of one of her hair visits.
Chase Peckham: 1:14:14
Katie, I don't know about you, but I think it shows that I definitely
Felipe Arevalo: 1:14:18
need there, especially if I stretch it out like I'm doing now. I need a haircut, like two weeks ago.
Katie Utterback: 1:14:27
Oh, but I think that's an interesting point, right? Like that's kind of part of this conversation is that is there more pressure on females or even you guys go out and speak a lot in public too. You know,
Chase Peckham: 1:14:41
I think society is kind of set those parameters. They just set prices because in the world we think that women, because their hair's longer or they doom or different types of styles with it, that it's it's just that it costs more. I don't know. I wonder if you say you as you mentioned the skill actually tougher with men because it shows more right. Women can get away with doing their hair a little bit differently if something's not cut quite right. Oh yeah, Where if somebody hacks my head. They gotta shave it down because it's gonna show. So I understand I meet with Children. I mean, their hair is so fine and does all the crazy, weird things that it's very if you make a mistake on a kid's head really shows.
Felipe Arevalo: 1:15:21
Oh, yeah, the My little one. Apparently, except for my little one. I wouldn't touch his hair because I would. You would definitely see the. The mistake is very fine and very straight. So if I miss something, it's gonna show the other one his curls are kind of all over the place, and he kind of likes that. That's kind of his little personality. I mean, some of friends come Curly and the people at school love his hair and say Oh I love your hair. and no one's noticed that I cut it. I just put the someday the guard on the Clipper, and I know it won't last forever. But right now, when he's sick, it's just it's easy here, sit right here, and I'm gonna do this and know that was so much fun. We got to listen to music while we did it and done was ready. Jump in the shower
Chase Peckham: 1:16:06
you know, it's funny you talk about cost in price on I mentioned that my son, who's 11 down, is going to this ultra cool place, and it really is. When I sat there last night waiting for him and I had a Corona, it was pretty cool. But at the same time, I think about it. His haircut. Even with his first haircut, he went to this place called Kids Carousel, and they had videos and they had all these training. They sit and they just did kids haircuts. But their haircuts were $25.30 dollars, and they would. With Avery's here, there would be little, You know, they put sprinkles and they put all these different glitter and they, you know, make it looks to preferences. He
Felipe Arevalo: 1:16:43
had toys, cool mirrors and all that stuff. But
Chase Peckham: 1:16:45
it was a niche, right? So we were paying for a niche, I guess, and I would say it must be as as we were just starting to talk about that society has just set that women's haircuts are more expensive than men's, and we just go with that.
Katie Utterback: 1:17:01
I mean, that's why they were talking about the pink tax with people who are advocating for the end of the pink tax. They describe it as a tax that effects women from cradle to grave. And I think that's the point. We indoctrinate girls from a really young age like you need the pink version of this car or even not even need a lot of little girls just like it.
Chase Peckham: 1:17:22
Yeah, it is And again, as he mentioned, you know, we talk about choice, and none of us want. Our choice is to be taken away. And we don't want our society to be, you know, so bland that everybody Okay, this is the haircut, your woman, And this is the haircut you're gonna get, and that's what it's gonna cost. And so we all want choice. And if somebody wants to pay 300 we have the choice right way. If you want to pay $300 for your haircut because you believe you're looking the best and that person is doing your hair is the best, then it's worth it to you, right? It's We talk about budgeting all the time, and you're making decisions on what's important to you. And if you don't want to search out for other people. That might be cheaper. But Justus Good, because believe me, they're probably is. It's just reputation. We talked about that and you took a chance, right,
Felipe Arevalo: 1:18:13
because you might get it wrong and they might mess it up.
Chase Peckham: 1:18:17
The last haircut I just got from this, these great Dell's up in Escondido. They it was 18 bucks. I got my hair cut at a barber locally by me, and same $18 dollars. I think it actually was $20, and he butchered my hair and I was in and out of there in 10 minutes.
Felipe Arevalo: 1:18:34
I like that part. Think about that sometimes. That's why it's fast, cause there's no wake what must have come back.
Chase Peckham: 1:18:42
Maybe it's just eventually, as I'm looking at it, I ultimately if I feel comfortable that I'm gonna walk out with a great haircut. It's worth it to me to pay $30.
Katie Utterback: 1:18:53
I'll add in too. For women, it's a longer appointment, so your stylist is also part therapist, like they know everything that's going on in your life.
Felipe Arevalo: 1:19:02
It's true. They're like Sarah's. Like friends with her stylist moved away to Colorado and she was sad like, Oh, she's leaving me and my hair person disappeared, Uh, where they went. Yeah, this is No, they're not in there anymore. That different person,
Chase Peckham: 1:19:15
the barber shops, we don't We don't do that. We talk football and write the Chargers leaving. You know that stuff? There's no women getting their hair cut in this place. I mean, it is a man's place and it is old school. It looks like he got thrown back to the sixties. I mean, it's really interesting. All the barbers have buzz cuts. I mean, it's really pretty interesting how that goes, but inflation with them hasn't changed much. I mean, they pretty much kept their prices kind of the way it is, and probably because their rents low. So you take that into consideration too, right? I mean, what if these people at a higher end in the salon? They want to get the reputation because the salon's got a reputation, right. So they're gonna build their reputation because the salon's got this great reputation so that their rent is gonna be higher. So they're gonna and not only that, they can't undercut the other stylists. Right. So there's gotta be a minimum to. What they have to charge, Because if somebody's charging you 40 bucks and everybody else around here is charging 90 there, that's gonna look bad on the rest of them, right? So they have to kind of make these adjustments.
Katie Utterback: 1:20:21
Oh, yeah,
Felipe Arevalo: 1:20:22
it's also location, absolutely ready now in question. Even your place you mentioned it's probably not in AA mall or near a mall or you're popular. So it's probably not a strip mall.
Chase Peckham: 1:20:34
Very, very far. Outskirts of town. Yeah,
Felipe Arevalo: 1:20:38
right. So that a lot. But you'll go seek it now because it was referred to me. Yeah, so that's something where if you want to, if you're trying to draw a new customers, you can't go put yourself in the outskirts of town or it won't it won't.
Chase Peckham: 1:20:52
They're not. They had generations and generations and generations of people that have gotten their hair cut there and, you know, their dad's got their hair cut there. They get their hair cut there. Now their kids get their hair cut there, and I mean literally generations. So you're right. They're a completely different place where they're not technically worried about where business is coming from yet. If you're starting off and you're tryingto be the next Jose a bear, right, Who was nobody that knows. It was not a long famous famous Hollywood stylist. And you wore the hair, The cowboy hat. Um, anyway, that's probably little bit before you guys so sorry. The pink tax I mentioned it to Keri the other day and I said, Did you ever notice that you're paying more for these products? And she said, To be honest with, you know, I just the price is what it is, and I just I need that product So I purchase it And she said, That's probably a weakness in my repertoire is I don't really look at that nice of man. Next time you go in, just check the difference between my razors and yours. And so she said, All right, we'll do that. So she went to target last night and she goes, I'm not buying raise anymore. I'm just using yours because they're almost the exact same blade. The difference is there might be a little bit more moisturizing Strip strip there.
Katie Utterback: 1:22:22
Yeah, I was looking into that. I'm I'm with Carrie. I'm going to switch to men's razors. A soon as I run out of these stupid Venus replacement things like that expensive. They are expensive. So I was looking up and Gillette came out with this whole F A Q thing. It's on their website. You can read it. They also partnered with Cosmopolitan, that women's magazine to explain why women's razors costs more. And their reasoning was that women shave 30% more like body. Yeah, and then, um, this is the part that I get confused on. Though there are three blades in the women's razor, there are five in the men's razor flat cleaner. Closer should. But what makes me think
Felipe Arevalo: 1:23:06
is the catch
Katie Utterback: 1:23:07
right. But like if you're if you're putting that razor on your face, what makes me think it's not safe enough to go on my leg? I would be far more terrified to shave my neck or my face than I am my leg.
Chase Peckham: 1:23:18
All the spacing in the blades is a big difference, so the chances of cutting yourself with three blades versus five blades is much different.
Katie Utterback: 1:23:24
Apparently, it's higher. Well, according to Gillette, it's lower. But according to research from women that I've been talking to and just looking online. A lot of women say as soon as they use their guys razor, their legs are softer for days, so they shave less frequently. And it's a closer shave.
Chase Peckham: 1:23:42
Yeah, and I have no problem sharing with it. I mean, we share basically everything else in our shower, So why not? Um, yeah. I firmly believe that there's there are products that are marketed for women and then marketed for men deodorants. Another 10 I've Honestly, I've used my wife's deodorant before and it works just fine. We're lucky that Carrie and I, neither of us have much body odor, so we don't put on a lot anyway, uh, but surely the difference is she doesn't want to smell like the musky nous of a man. I don't care if I smell like, you know, girl hours or flowers. I don't know. Um, I don't go around showing people my armpits either.
Katie Utterback: 1:24:27
That's funny, because I actually yesterday and today I used AJ's deodorant. Did you? Just out of curiosity, I few like, First of all, I'm in love with it. I think I'm going to be I'm going to start buying Old Spice for my own self. I believe my Uncle John. I hate smelly like baby powder. I don't know what that option secret smells like. Yes, yeah. So I had the lavender-scented secret deodorant. But I also feel like AJ's is working better. My it's crazy
Felipe Arevalo: 1:24:57
if you get a Costco, I get the theater and the degree one, and they have a pack of a
Chase Peckham: 1:25:03
really busy just walking billboards cost.
Felipe Arevalo: 1:25:06
But I could get a pack of the one I use, and it's cheaper than the pack of the one Sarah would use. If you switch to like I don't know, I remember what brand they carry cause they don't carry that many. Ah, but I want to say it's like secret or something like that, and it's cheaper for me to buy a pack of deodorant, then her to buy a pack. Same amount of huh, individual bars, but in the hers are even smaller. If you look at the the actual content of the inside,
Chase Peckham: 1:25:36
you look a target. You look at Walmart, you go to any of those places where the volume in the multi packs men's typically will come in three and women sometimes in two. Yeah,
Felipe Arevalo: 1:25:44
And you get a bonus.
Chase Peckham: 1:25:49
is interesting. He opened up a whole new world for me because I think Justus consumers and his guys, we just go about buying the things that we buy that interest us that we use and then not really noticing really looking at it like, Wow, this really does exist. And I went, looked I went last night, went to Target when looked at bikes just the same thing. Same size boy's bike versus girl by pink versus blue There was a difference of about 30 dollars in price, which is insane. Why?
Katie Utterback: 1:26:19
It is insane, especially since blue is not a gender-neutral color right now to me, like it's so much associated with a newborn baby boy or something. And I know like I wear blue all the time. I'm not saying that women can't wear blue, and I absolutely adore the color pink. That doesn't mean that I want to pay $30 more for it either,
Chase Peckham: 1:26:40
right? That's what you know, my, I don't know if my daughter if I would get her her first bike and it would happen to be blue or orange or whatever it might be. I don't know the language. I think that's what my wife would say. Hey, it drives my wife crazy that Avery has to wear orange for her soccer uniform. But that that whole idea is I don't think if she wasn't conditioned. Like I put the pink bike in front of her and I put the blue bike in front of her. She would definitely want the pink bike because that's she's watched all these cartoons where all the little girls wear pink. Where princesses wear pink. Um, so the kids are just for whatever reason, they're drawn to that color, and the marketers know that. But if I were to just bring home a bike and it was the color it was, I don't know if she would say, How come I didn't get pink? Yes, I am drinking out of a pink cup right now
Katie Utterback: 1:27:32
but I mean, there's a It's beautiful. Well, that's your flamingo cup, huh? Okay. Yeah.
Felipe Arevalo: 1:27:41
Yeah but he was saying I wore a pink all the time. Um and and to me, too. And it's not because I mean, it's Oh, look, there's a pink one. There's a pink polo, um, and I even wore pink Before, before Sarah, before she I knew she liked pink, so it's just ah, but the polo, the pink polo didn't cost more than the blue polo. They were the same price. I probably got a deal for buying two of them or something along those lines. And sometimes in guy's clothes. If you go to like the clearance section at whatever store or an under pink, you're gonna find times of sales on the pinks left because that's what's leftover at the end. Pink and yellow or prices Really Muchas bought, right? And so the clearance section that cheaper shared sometimes are the pink ones in the guy section. Yeah, like he was saying, Sometimes guys don't wanna wear pink, and I'm all for sale.
Chase Peckham: 1:28:36
Notice those sales racks that you might find a few of the blues, but they'll never be in the size that you know they're going to extra smaller, extra smaller or double action Triple XL, right? They're not normal colors where if you pink or lime green or something like that, you'll find an array of different because they're just obviously not, isn't
Felipe Arevalo: 1:28:55
there? Weren't as popular right. The hotter the pink, too. But
Chase Peckham: 1:28:58
I don't think in clothing. I haven't seen where colors are differences. It's the make of the shirt or whatever it is.
Katie Utterback: 1:29:04
If you go on Amazon, you can clearly see really discrepancies. Yeah, because it's like I saw this on an instagram post and this woman was trying to buy the past because popularity? No. So, like, even I just bought some headphones, for example, I got them in the color purple if I wanted them in black or pink, and the thing that was another color is gonna cost me maybe 10 to $15 more for black. Yeah, even the popular one. Yeah, interested.
Felipe Arevalo: 1:29:30
So if you go on Amazon and you're looking at something where there's different sizes and colors, you can pick the size and then I'll tell you which colors are available, and then it will tell you how much each different color will cost. And there's There's a discrepancy in a lot of products, depending on the color. Ah, and things like that. So I don't mind off-color just to save money because of the color. The spatula is two pancakes. I
Katie Utterback: 1:29:56
think most people don't really care what the color is, but when you start adding in words. So, for example, this woman was trying to buy a pacifier for her daughter, and she was gonna just by the blue one. But then it says boy in parentheses after blue. So she selected Pink. She's like, No, have a daughter of a girl, And then it was $3 more.
Chase Peckham: 1:30:16
That's weird
Katie Utterback: 1:30:17
right? This isn't the
Chase Peckham: 1:30:18
pacifiers are not ergonomically different because it's a boy or girl, baby.
Katie Utterback: 1:30:22
No, there's a lot of stuff that's not going to be like I was reading in that ethic you from Gillette and it was like, If you're a woman and you try to use a man's razor, it's gonna be difficult in your hand because it's not gonna be turning and flipping around. I will be the first to admit I dropped my razor almost every time I'm shaving my legs because it's just like an awkward thing. Like
Chase Peckham: 1:30:45
I've watched my wife. I am so thrilled that I don't have to do that. It is it's got to be so difficult. That's why she honestly sorry, babe, she doesn't like twice a week because she's like, I don't want to do it every day. It's a big giant like Friday's. Today was a really long shower and shave the legs day. Yeah, and using my razor by the way, which is OK, but we go through more blades now. Yeah, completely, especially when we go on vacation, which we don't have much. So yeah, right Deodorant. Same thing we share. So it's just kind of it's now leaning its way. We've used the same shaving cream forever, and I use the woman's shaving cream I don't care. You know, my face is so conditioned to shaving now I don't break out. I don't have sensitive skin anymore. I mean, it's I just shave every day. I don't I don't like you do the five o'clock shadow. I feel very uncomfortable. My wife doesn't want to kiss me as much, so we keep it clean. It's just funny how these different products as we've gotten married, there's just not nearly as much on the counter now. There's just not, and it's really kind of funny that way, I think bottom line what I learned the most through this whole thing is we can't look to government to change these things. we as the people, and I think this probably goes for a lot of things. We, the community's the, ah, people who are buying and purchasing these things have to just stand up and say I'm not buying them anymore. And what is that? That's gonna be education that's gonna be people learning what products, you know, we're just conditioned buy what's there, what they tell us to buy. So if we just say I'm not gonna buy those female razors anymore, they're gonna wake up to it.
Felipe Arevalo: 1:32:38
Oh, yeah, because the
Chase Peckham: 1:32:39
bottom line, the dollar speaks more than anything else,
Felipe Arevalo: 1:32:42
right? The principles of economics will hold true. If you decrease the demand, it will have an effect on the price point that they can go ahead and put on their on their supply because they want to be able to still move the product in the at the end of the day. So if enough people get informed and then make that decision to to change and to not have that demand for that product, it will change the price point or though just have to see sticks dabs. They won't have to adapt to the demand and economics and they had a whole
Chase Peckham: 1:33:16
truth. Yeah, yeah, without question. So I mean, I think that's what this platform is for. I think that's what's we. Just as consumers need to get the word out to each other that this is happening, it's a very real thing. And the only way we're gonna get it is not complaining. I mean, we could do that, but where you're going to hit them is in the wallet, so and the bank account. So just don't buy it. Yeah, it comes down to
Katie Utterback: 1:33:43
when I was noticing. Too related to the pink tax is that the ingredients are different, too, so D order. It was kind of, Ah, blatant example. There's aluminum in women's deodorant, not in men's deodorant. I wonder why that is right, But it's It's one of those things where it's a cancer causing agent, so it's kind of like why isn't in one, not the other? And then there was an example of depends adult underwear. And in the women's pack, so many women's cost the exact same. The women's has like five fewer diapers or something. But even though the language for women it says control for men. It's guard. That's interesting, right?
Chase Peckham: 1:34:27
Yeah. Marketing. Yeah. Yeah, just the way men and women look at things differently.
Katie Utterback: 1:34:34
Yeah. So it's just, you know, something to be aware of. Um, like you're saying in using your dollars to try to make an influence and try to change the market. What's available? I think you're saying, Try, to, you know, buy the version that you support, like the cheaper version, if that's what it is. But then I think also take that extra step and let people know why you're doing that. It's not that we all all of a sudden want blue razors or something. It's that we want it to be.
Chase Peckham: 1:35:02
You have a pink and a blue one and be structurally the same. And if you have a choice of which color you want, great. But don't make a little lump in the middle of this handle and say that this is gonna be more ergonomically correct for a woman. Look, my wife is doing just fine shaving, and she probably dropped it a few times, too. I drop him. So the only thing I will say as we wind this up. I think that that women's the tax on women's products, hygiene products. Those. I think that that's something where we need to stand up and say, Look, in the state of California, where we live, those air still taxable and why that makes no sense to me. I mean, it's a must have same thing with diapers, But again, the mighty dollar is going to speak. And I'm Republican here, folks, and I'm economically public Republican. But I can I can see, you know, the state of California is gonna say everybody, all every woman in the state of California has got to buy these products. How much money are they gonna lose on that sales tax because of that and that, that's really what's gonna drive this, and they'll try to figure me think about every time that something happens. They added extra tax to gas here, right? It's I don't That's the only thing. I think that where we do have to bang on our on our government officials or local government officials and say, Look, this has got to change. That's just one man's opinion,
Felipe Arevalo: 1:36:47
and I think it's it's something where maybe some guys don't even realize that that's there. I did. If if you're not, you know, married or in a relationship where you're buying that for someone, you'll never know that that is a taxable item. Because as a guy, you just you just wouldn't have bought it. Um,
Katie Utterback: 1:37:12
There are a lot of women who don't know that exists either. Yeah, especially since everything you
Felipe Arevalo: 1:37:15
find your target tripped isn't usually I'm gonna get one thing, uh, or whatever story here. And it's usually not just, you know, should be if you're in there for one thing, by one thing. But you know, how often do you Oh, I I should get this. I should get that. And then you don't realize which part of your receipt was taxed in which part wasn't? Because people won't go through it with a fine tooth comb. Yeah, very true.
Katie Utterback: 1:37:42
I just never remember. Like when I put the razors in the cart exactly what the cost was, especially by the time I get to the next aisle. Like I don't remember. So I must. I took a photo. I can't compare the price.
Chase Peckham: 1:37:54
I hate buying razors. Yeah, it's just so funny when we talk about the different things that people love to buy and things that we don't like to buy. I hate buying. I will literally use my razor for months on end. It literally has to be almost rusting out before I will change it out. And it doesn't change my face much. I really don't know until I put in the new and I Oh, it's like butter. But I just It's one of those things where I know it's gonna cost me 15 bucks for four cartridges, and it just ah, what the heck is so expensive about this, right? It is what it is. And I'm not gonna go buy the cheaper ones if you've ever bought those disposable razor travel ones. Oh, my gosh, e mean it literally is taking layers of skin off your face. It hurts so bad and just do anyway, corners on there's some things you can't.
Katie Utterback: 1:38:45
Amen.
Chase Peckham: 1:38:46
Amen. What's up next?
Katie Utterback: 1:38:49
Next we are talking to a woman who wrote a book on how to have a conversation with your parents as they age about their financial situation.
Chase Peckham: 1:38:59
Yeah, that's gonna be a good one. I I have a lot of experience in that, so Yeah, so for those people who haven't had to have that conversation, hopefully pass along. Absolutely. And just as one reminder, we spoke with Michael Cohn. Go look at his website. Pink.Tax is an amazing, amazing website. That amount of research in different things on that website is insane. So if this topic has really caught your attention to yourself favor and go chck out that website. goodbye, everybody.