Cannabis - commonly referred to as pot, weed, reefer, and ganja - is increasingly becoming legal, not just in the United States, but around the world. Recreational cannabis is already legal in Uruguay and Canada, and in the U.S., more than 25 states have legalized cannabis in the form of recreational, medicinal, hemp, and/or CBD.
Given that cannabis legalization would not only be profitable in itself but has the potential to disrupt other established industries, it comes as no surprise there's been a rush in recent years for investors to get into the cannabis industry on the ground floor.
Grove Group Management CEO and Co-Founder of Kevin Shin joins the Talk Wealth To Me #podcast for a conversation on what it takes to invest in cannabis, what kind of changes we'll see in the cannabis industry when U.S. legalization occurs, and more!
About Kevin Shin
Kevin Shin is the Chief Executive Officer & Co-Founder of Grove Group Management. Kevin has over 17 years of experience in the finance industry serving as a financial consultant at AXA winning multiple sales awards. He also led ChungKing Recording Studios where Russell Simmons and John King worked to bring Rap music into households. Here he restructured the corporation and brought this historic studio - with a roster that included LL Cool J, Michael Jackson and Mariah Carey - back to profitability in three short months.
In 2004, Kevin founded an innovative corporation to house a venture capital company and a commodities trading desk. The venture capital company started at $20M in AUM in year one to $3.8bn in AUM with IRR consistently in the 20’s before his departure in 2017.
Kevin also joined NewOak Capital as a Senior Advisor in 2009 on a limited basis and as a Limited Partner. He has worked with clients like: Tongyang for restructuring their corporation during a financial crisis, Starwood Capital as a capital raiser and senior analyst for proposed deals, and taught Asia structure to multi-billion dollar hedge funds while working in Asia during his tenure at NewOak.
About the Show
Comments, questions or suggestions for the show? Email us at talkwealthpodcast@gmail.com.
To learn more about DebtWave Credit Counseling, visit our website or connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
To learn more about the San Diego Financial Literacy Center, visit our website or connect with us on Facebook and Twitter.
Cannabis - commonly referred to as pot, weed, reefer, and ganja - is increasingly becoming legal, not just in the United States, but around the world. Recreational cannabis is already legal in Uruguay and Canada, and in the U.S., more than 25 states have legalized cannabis in the form of recreational, medicinal, hemp, and/or CBD.
Given that cannabis legalization would not only be profitable in itself but has the potential to disrupt other established industries, it comes as no surprise there's been a rush in recent years for investors to get into the cannabis industry on the ground floor.
Grove Group Management CEO and Co-Founder of Kevin Shin joins the Talk Wealth To Me #podcast for a conversation on what it takes to invest in cannabis, what kind of changes we'll see in the cannabis industry when U.S. legalization occurs, and more!
About Kevin Shin
Kevin Shin is the Chief Executive Officer & Co-Founder of Grove Group Management. Kevin has over 17 years of experience in the finance industry serving as a financial consultant at AXA winning multiple sales awards. He also led ChungKing Recording Studios where Russell Simmons and John King worked to bring Rap music into households. Here he restructured the corporation and brought this historic studio - with a roster that included LL Cool J, Michael Jackson and Mariah Carey - back to profitability in three short months.
In 2004, Kevin founded an innovative corporation to house a venture capital company and a commodities trading desk. The venture capital company started at $20M in AUM in year one to $3.8bn in AUM with IRR consistently in the 20’s before his departure in 2017.
Kevin also joined NewOak Capital as a Senior Advisor in 2009 on a limited basis and as a Limited Partner. He has worked with clients like: Tongyang for restructuring their corporation during a financial crisis, Starwood Capital as a capital raiser and senior analyst for proposed deals, and taught Asia structure to multi-billion dollar hedge funds while working in Asia during his tenure at NewOak.
About the Show
Comments, questions or suggestions for the show? Email us at talkwealthpodcast@gmail.com.
To learn more about DebtWave Credit Counseling, visit our website or connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
To learn more about the San Diego Financial Literacy Center, visit our website or connect with us on Facebook and Twitter.
Welcome to Talk Wealth to Me. A safe space podcast where we chat about anything and everything related to personal finance.
Felipe Arevalo:The information contained in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It does not constitute as accounting, legal, tax or other professional advice.
Chase Peckham:Hello everybody and welcome to another edition of Talk Wealth to Me. Today we sit down with someone who is at the epicenter of a very interesting topic and that is the legalization of cannabis and Kevin Shin and his company Grove Group Management is that the epicenter of cannabis and the financial stakes of different companies that are using cannabis for different wellness products. Among other things. This is an incredibly interesting episode and we can't wait to have Kevin back. Ladies and gentleman, Kevin Shin.
Katie Utterback:So I think this is going to be a fun topic for us. Before we start, Kevin, could you just kind of introduce to our audience Grove Group and could you kind of break it down for us too in layman's terms what exactly it is you guys do related to the cannabis industry? What that means to be a cannabis investment fund.
Kevin Shin:Sure. Katie, uh, what the cannabis investment fund, uh, we started back basically in 2018, uh, and we launched off a cannabis investment fund. And basically what we are is we're a venture capital slash private equity fund because we allow for some debt and we're looking for innovative products, uh, you know, gaps in the market. We're constantly checking for, uh, inefficiencies and developing solutions and trying to find ways that we can make money in the market. And then when we did our initial research, we found that, uh, there were good margins to be made. This is actually a very good fun concept. Uh, we can return a decent amount of money, uh, after the initial investment and the buildup it takes, I like it because it's brick and mortar, you know, we're producing usually goods or some type of technological service. Uh, there's a lot of disruptive technology. Uh, there's a lot of disorganization. And then in finding disorganization in the market, uh, there's a lot of opportunities for profit. So, uh, a lot of key things where new, find a new industry, there's buildings, so find and exploit opportunities to fix inefficiencies. And then we went about it as a minority corporation. We're trying to help minority corporations as well. Uh, you know, that's about being smart and pressing our advantage while also helping, uh, minorities. Right.
Katie Utterback:Yeah. And I want to talk to you about that more because for years there's been in the news reports that, um, specifically African Americans and Latinos were more so negatively impacted by the prohibition of cannabis laws throughout not only the United States, but around the world. And is that why, uh, I guess the diversity component is so important to you guys? Is it trying to correct some of those maybe wrongs,
Kevin Shin:Correcting some of these wrongs? It's about, uh, the present system justice. It's about us being people who care about the economy in the United States, right? Uh, there's the amount of tax dollars that go to, uh, keeping people in prison that were wrongly convicted on the three strikes rule. Right? Uh, you're, you're talking a large portion of our tax dollars are going to keep people that have minor infractions that eventually they end up being criminals because they get put into the system. So, uh, you know, it's something that's near and dear to our heart, but then it also has economic purposes, you know, supporting minority corporations and helping people do and make smart business choices and uh, pressing in our roll up strategy and giving them our expertise to help them run a business, uh, gives advantages in the market. We know if you're a minority corporation that's selling, uh, let's say soap and then that's soap is made by minority corporation, then there's grants available to you in most States because you're a minority corporation producing this product. And then on top of that, when you get to distribution, distribution, there's a advantage because certain stores have to buy a certain percentage from minority corporations. So then it goes hand in hand. We're, we're helping minorities take advantage of what's available here in America, uh, using the laws and making sure that everything to their advantage is there. And also make sure that best practices are being established.
Katie Utterback:So let me just kind of follow up on that too. So when you're talking about the economic impact of some of these policies and making sure that there are some, I guess, investors who are helping minority groups, you're also talking not just racial minorities, but you're also talking about gender. You're talking about women as well, right?
Kevin Shin:Yeah. Women are underrepresented in the market, uh, but the, uh, we, we try to establish that, uh, we invest in women corporations. We have corporations that have women in their C-suite and on their staff. And it's, it's essential to us to make sure that we're help helping to right some of these wrongs. Right? It's essential for us to know that we're, we're taking advantage and then we are using the system that's in place, at least in United States to our advantage, uh, economically as well. Right? So we're not doing this sheerly, uh, 100% because, you know, we're great people, I'm sure doing this also because there's an economic advantage to it.
Chase Peckham:You're smart people.
Katie Utterback:Yeah. I mean the cannabis industry has for a long time kind of been jokingly referred to as like the next green rush, kind of playing off the gold rush. So I do want to ask you is that that economic opportunity and the ability to, I guess bring some minority, um, entrepreneurs with you, is that what attracted you and your partners specifically to work in the cannabis industry versus any other industry where money's always needed, right? You always are needing investment Investors
Kevin Shin:We're not going to address one specific group and we're not going to discriminate, right? If, you know, there's a white corporation that has a very good product, we think it's disruptive, uh, you know, survival of the fittest, we're going to look to acquire that asset, but then we're also have a mandate to look for minority corporations and, and getting the correct investments that, uh, can help our portfolio. So then, uh, you, you have to look at the whole market in its entirety. Do I think that some of the legal aspects, uh, will change in the future as we find that the money requirements for marijuana is so expensive? Uh, you know, if you're running any specific business, the cheapest business is still a couple million dollars. So we start up and that's not even maintaining and running and seeing the, uh, you actually hit critical mass in terms of what your production capability is, where your sales capabilities are and distribution possibilities are. So like, it's not a cheap game to play. And then the ability to take in investors, our investor women basically minimum it's half a million dollars. So we're not taking money from people that don't have the money to afford to invest. We're taking money from people who can afford to invest. who does have connections who can help and they participate. They participate to help, uh, our investments grow bigger and better. So that's why we're more of a role of strategy. We love it.
Katie Utterback:Well, and let's talk about the financial aspect too a little bit more. Um, given that cannabis is not legal on a federal level, there's a lot of, uh, federal red tape around using banks or even, I guess applying for a loan. Sometimes it's very hard for a cannabusiness to even get that seed money to start. So what kind of, um, problems, what kind of experiences I guess, have you had because of those limitations on where you can store your money, save your money, access your money?
Kevin Shin:I have lots of stories that over the course of the years. I think really early in the time where banks were a lot less available, uh, I was down in a state, I'm not even going to name the state and the person had multiple dispensaries. Uh, and I went to a warehouse in the warehouse space in this storage for the cash for, uh, but that they earned off of sales. And, uh, there was absolutely a scene out of something like Scarface. I was throwing it back because, uh, you know, they had some cats and dogs. They're like, you know, what's the cats and dogs for? They were like Yeah, we had problems in rats. It was eating the money. He couldn't deposit the money.
Chase Peckham:Oh my goodness.
Kevin Shin:Yeah, absolutely. So then like, it got, it went from there. You know, it's still not necessarily welcome. Uh, I'll say that, uh, it's getting a little bit easier. Time goes on, but you know, there's difficulties around our group and uh, these days, even for something that's readily legal, like CBD, uh, getting a merchant account so you can process credit card processing, you know, uh, it became relatively hard. Uh, you know, there were a lot of services that were mainstream that just kicked people off even though it was a federally legal item. So what, ah while I'll say it's a lot more open and then there are banks that are going to process it. Uh, you know, you just have to be smart and finding those banks and then working with them and hopefully, you know, growing out the debt aspect of the industry's still very tight. Uh, there's a lot of, a lot of work to be done in that sector. Uh, we're working to help solve that and establishing debt protocols and, uh, the ability to put that facilities into the market. A smart meeting cleverly. That's one of the things that I think that we're doing that's different. Uh, we want to make sure that the whole suite and the financial world is available to the cannabis. And I know just because we're in such nascent years, we have the ability to develop so many different things. It's a lot of fun.
Chase Peckham:So you use the word cannabis, is that including the, what we're seeing as far as CBD goes and the different products that are coming out with the hemp plant versus cannabis. And I know that they're very closely related. Do you differ?
Kevin Shin:When I say cannabis I do mean hemp and also marijuana.
Chase Peckham:Okay.
Kevin Shin:Generally I'm just using cannabis as a typical Latin term from genus. So hemp and marijuana, you know, both are are great tools. Uh, the implications of what they can do have not been completely solved yet. And I think it's going to be a lot of fun to find out what we can get out of it.
Chase Peckham:It is, it is interesting from, from your aspect, there must be a ton of work that goes into looking at all these different companies and these different products that come out and research. Because, I mean, you see CBD in 711's now and in little corner markets to buy the pills and yet, uh, you can go online and find these incredible websites from everywhere from Colorado to California where you know that it's legal. How do you differentiate and go through all of the different products that you have available to you?
Kevin Shin:It is absolutely impossible, right? Uh, the number of choices out there is extremely big. And finding something without a known brand name that you know and trust already is relatively hard. I think that's the benefit of having some celebrities involved. Like, uh, us working with Tiki Barber, uh, we're actually launching a line of a CBD pet products called"Our Pet Paws" and also placate, uh, on Walmart and Amazon as well. And then, you know, having that celebrity person, you know, that we're putting money into the factories. There's news articles that's supported, right? In general, I am looking for those news articles, uh, from the corporations that show that a decent amount of money has been invested in the lab. So you're not getting hemp wick, right? Uh, you have to do more research than normal. None. A lot of the times you're not going to find much. And because of that, uh, it actually breeds mistrust for me because, uh, you look at, uh, all these different markets and avenues for selling, uh, you know, the stuff that you might find that 711 or a gas station could literally be hemp seed oil, which is the same thing you can buy at maybe a Costco to cook with, right. And spike with maybe a vitamin or something like that. And they said, Hey, no CBD, uh, because of the regulations and the testing of saying like, Oh, this is what must be in it. Uh, in order to, to, to sell it, then these claims could be absolutely unfounded. Uh, I've, I've read at least a couple of articles where, uh, they tested things like, uh, bath bombs and, and other things where no, CBD was present at all. So, uh, the amount of hype that cannabis gets drives sales, but then it's, it's almost in a bad way because there's going to be a lot of bad actors. And then the bad actors gives the whole market a bad name.
Katie Utterback:Well,I wanted to ask you about the bad actors because there was a scare, um, not that long ago. It's still kind of ongoing. Um, here in California where we have recreational and medicinal legalization, vape pens are available. Um, not even that far from where we're recording this podcast. And a huge push came out in the local news. You need to buy your vape pen from a licensed dispensary. Um, because the products, even the fake ones look so similar to the real ones. It's very hard to tell. Um, do you think that the lack of education, not only for consumers, but just around cannabis in general, um, has had a negative effect on people's ability to invest in the product or for the industry to just kind of expand a faster pace? Or what kind of impact do you think that these bad actors are having for, I guess, investors like yourself to bring new products to the market
Kevin Shin:Investors like myself because we establish more SOP's and then we establish ways with our marketing team to make sure that, uh, the customer knows that they're getting quality, right. Uh, we have to put it on ourselves to regulate ourselves a lot of the times just because the amount of oversight given can vary from state to state and uh, you know, places like California, right.you have some great brands over there. U h, and the problem is as soon as you buy a product, then the person who c an c ounterfeit i t and scan it with t he today's t echnologies a nd a lso b e e asy t o f all a nd knock off, right? Y eah. You just put it in a box that looks similar, printing it up and u h, you know, going to a local printer, u h, you know, getting the sticker and then putting t he sticker on, it looks very similar and then, you know, the black m arket i s g oing t o take advantage of that and make things.
Katie Utterback:What kind of response are you hearing from lawmakers regarding legalization?
Kevin Shin:Lawmakers, uh, some of them understand it, some of them don't. Right. Uh, you know, I, I've walked on both sides. I've talked to both because I just like to know like, uh, each, each side saying and the reason behind their, their thoughts and actions. Uh, and it seems like the people that are for it, uh, they understand the health benefits. They, they read the research, they understand that it's basically a more healthy option alternative to alcohol. Uh, what they also understand, uh, on the other side, the people who don't like it, uh, they're scared that it's a gateway drug, uh, that the addiction levels, uh, which is actually lower than alcohol, uh, is basically gonna give them a gateway into hard record drugs. Right. But the research is out and you know, I think also on the naysayer side, there's a lot of people who are worried about their, their neighborhoods and law enforcement. You know, having a hard time coming up with that universal tests, Hey, you know, you're driving under the influence and that's a real problem. Cause you know, if people Drake and drive, there's a standard test and you say, Hey, you know you're going to jail if you do this. Uh, if you smoke and drive under the influences, you're still more dangerous. You know, it's just like if you're texting and driving when people should be aware of that. And then that enforcement problem all of a sudden became moves a lot more difficult for law enforcement. So then there, there are things that have to be sold. This is some of the inefficiencies that we like to look at and say, Hey, you know what, what's the answer? What's the solution?
Katie Utterback:Does does an absence of though a universal federal legalization law, is that where some of the challenges lie though in terms of enforcement or policing? Cause I mean here on my way home, I saw a billboard yesterday that said this is your sign, don't drive. High. It was in green letters and it was very clear, like don't basically don't toke and drive, don't smoke and drive. U m, so here we can get that message right along with the don't text and drive billboards a nd the don't drink and drive billboards. But that is not necessarily happening throughout.
Chase Peckham:The amount of CBD and cannabis billboards we have in San Diego alone is astonishing. Yes. It's everywhere. Yes. Yeah. There's a lot of marketing.
Kevin Shin:It's, it's something that, you know, where the lawmakers who are against it, you know, this gives them a low good venue munition, right? Like everyone has to be responsible. And then being responsible means, you know, don't try to kill somebody with a weapon and cars or a truck is a weapon, right. SUV is basically stronger than a gun because it weighs more and then you hit people with more force. Right? Yeah. So like people have to understand that. Appreciate it. And then not only that, respect the law enforcement. You know? Uh, know the, the laws have to become stricter for, for driving under the influence. We have to find a universal test. Now we've been looking for a couple of different kits and seeing if, uh, you know, distribution of these kits in the, in the townships where in the communities that we're in and distributing there and seeing if that would help. Uh, you know, it's all things that we have in the works in the plants and trying to try and find a solution.
Katie Utterback:So do you, do you foresee the US legalizing cannabis federally at some point, and if you do see that happening, what kind of impact do you think that US legalization would have on the cannabis industry worldwide? Especially since we would not be the first country to legalize cannabis
Kevin Shin:we wouldn't be the first, uh, what, hopefully we do it better than some other countries.
Chase Peckham:Be the largest.
Kevin Shin:since. Yes. Yeah. We're the largest. We, we wouldn't be able to, uh, look federally legalization of cannabis is coming to America. We have basically two thirds of this state that has something marijuana laws available for the public and, uh, the ability to consume right. If we're looking at, at that fact alone, it's just a matter of time before the rest of the States come along and we say, all right, it's federally illegal. You know, being able to, uh, have an overriding regulatory board and hopefully with the best picked laws from each state that has worked and seems have worked and enforcement and what the problems that has happened and ways to not overkill it not overtaxing the industry. So it gets, uh, I guess melted down to, uh, you know, is it worth to buy your weed from a local dealer, you know, whereas the taxes is just, you know, way too overbearing. You know, there has to be the correct balance that's going to be tough to find. But then if you have everyone working on it, finding a solution even after we pass it and you still know that the legislation's gonna take probably years to actually fix and, and be able to actual enforce.
Felipe Arevalo:Yeah. Then somewhere here, like in California where it was legalized, then each individual city, it seems like has passed ordinances for or against, I mean that just adds a whole another layer of difficulty when it comes to trying to do business. It seems like, you know, you drive a few blocks and it's something illegal and then you drive a few more blocks and it's not. So is it the local communities also making it more difficult or, or do you feel that if it did become legalized nationwide, more of the smaller communities, would just kind of follow suit?
Kevin Shin:Regardless of where you go in America, we're Campbell soup, right? Campbell's vegetable soup. You know, we have like a, a little bit of carrot there, a little bit of a celery there, you know, a little bit of tomato here. Um, each little section of America is gonna have their own little, uh, beliefs and, and I guess own little distinction of saying like, Oh yeah, yeah, I'm orange, uh, you know, I'm green, uh, et cetera, et cetera. So we're always gonna hit little problems like that. And I don't think we miss stop things like that, but, you know, having the federal government saying like, Hey, you know, this is legal change, at least the aspects of how much they can limit what they can do.
Katie Utterback:So, I guess given all these different, um, rules and laws throughout the land, is there a type of investment that's still exciting in this industry at this point? Cause it seems like.
Kevin Shin:there's so many. Like, like I said, there's so many inefficiencies in this market, right? There's a lot of gaps. There's a lot of things that still has to be solved, uh, when even the distribution lines and how things are going to run out. And, uh, I can't even declare wears and specific brands and sophisticated markets, right? You can take California for example. I can't tell you that the number one vape company is going to be there five years from now. Uh, I can't tell you, you know, who's the best edible corporation because I think that change will come.
Katie Utterback:Okay. So you, you're predicting major disruptions in this industry. They're like, just because you're on top today does not mean you're still going to even be around five years from now.
Kevin Shin:You compare the market from here to five years from now, we're going to be looking at completely different way, right? Uh, we're, we're seeing, uh, basically people that have overly valued their corporation raised money and now are now getting sued because the investors found out that they're not gonna get their money back. Right? Uh, that's happening a lot more frequently now. Uh, you know, I've always told, uh, the general public and our investors that, look, we're not going to tell you the cannabis tax. We're not going to say because we get a dispensary, we're going to ignore the basic principles of economics. You know, we're still going to look at what our sales numbers could be, what the population is, what the demographic is, how much we think we can get per sale, uh, and how many customers we can attract within that given region based on our competition. Uh, after checking out the competition with the clicker in front and finding how many people walk inside, right? You know, we're, we're, we're, we're gathering, we're gathering as much data points as we can to make smart decisions and saying, Hey, look, we think we can make this much money, this location. And if we do these different factions, we can make more money then go into it in a detail where I'd like the, uh, probably make it akin to maybe like a hotel or boutique hotel for dispensary's. Manufacturing. Uh, you know, we go into it with, all right, who can we distribute with, you know, the fact that we develop products, we can, you know, sell them at walmart.com and get them up on Amazon and, you know, get distribution through these major channels where a lot of people are selling through, you know, websites, uh, you know, they're all personal websites and having problems with payment portals, right? Uh, there's a difference in terms of developing the plan before you invest and then we're, we're rating these businesses and we're not gonna give them a benefit of cannabis with the exception of the margins that are generally pretty good.
Chase Peckham:So it's no different than any other business really at this point then. I mean, you're looking at the value of the business plan, profit margins no differently than any other venture capitalist would do.
Kevin Shin:That's a different business. Look, look at what Med Men did, right. Ah Med Men made a splashing the market because they basically did the marketing play. It's like, look, we're in Hollywood when they're really not, or not Hollywood in a, was it called Beverly Hills when they were in a town next to Beverly Hills, right? You know, they're, they're making splashes in splashy real estate areas where the real suit is probably more expensive, but the economies of scales didn't make sense and they're paying for it. The first thing they got rid of was a real estate, which was not terror of a, of a mistake in terms of decisions, uh, because you know, that's the basis foundation that they can get loans off of, etc. And they totally gave that up. And where are they now? They're trying to pay off vendors with stocks and dilute Their, their existing members. You know, that's like punishing the people who made you what you are. People are just looking to make a splash and you know steal some money from some people. And, uh, you know, and there are like I've seen, I, I've seen a shop give me a proposal before they ever opened and said that they're going to have their, they're valued at$30 million. They haven't made one sale from a dispensary. And I said, all right, if it's$30 million, that means you're going to be producing, you know,$30 million net X, uh, and you can pay us back in this amount of time, no way. And how would that be possible based on location, based on the area. And it's not like it's only frigging dispensary in Las Vegas or something like that. It was like one of many and you know, the person just wasn't rooted in reality. They did the tech cannabis tax and then you know what the person also raise money because of it. I think by the time we got to, uh, that specific project, uh, they already raised about four or$5 million without making a sale.
Felipe Arevalo:That sounds like a bad episode of shark tank.
Kevin Shin:That's the problem in well, because people hear cannabis. It's like, Oh yeah, you know, everyone thinks like Tony Montana, you know, Scarface, lots of money everywhere. And then that's how it goes. Nah, it's a business. You have to run it like a business. Uh, you know, you have to, you have to have the discipline of it, but then you know, there's going to be some great products out there that are needed in the market. Right? There's this existing solutions that you just have to modify and develop it for cannabis and then there are great opportunities.
Katie Utterback:Well, and I want to talk to you about those opportunities too. Cause it seems like we briefly mentioned this before, but the cannabis industry has the potential to disrupt other industries. Um, we briefly mentioned the criminal justice, um, aspect, which is that there were so many people that were in prison for possessing this plant. But with legalization that's going to change. Healthcare. There's a lot of people who are benefiting medicinally from using the plant. Um, both with the THC form and then just the pure CBD. And then there's hemp, which can, there's a lot of stuff you can make with hemp. You can make food, you can make rope. Um, I've heard before that the first.
Kevin Shin:You can make glue, you can make lots of stuff.
Katie Utterback:I've heard that the first model T ever was made from like a hemp material cause it, it's like almost as strong as steel or something. Um, but I, I mean even, yeah, even beyond that, um, weddings, you're gonna, you're starting to see more, um, weddings incorporate, uh, bud tenders and offering cannabis to smoke instead of alcohol, bachelorette parties. There's tours, there's a restaurant in LA where you can go have something to eat and then something to smoke or vape. What do you think that this industry is going to do? Like do you really see it flipping all these other industries and kind of disrupting them? Or do you think it's a little bit dramatic to think that cannabis is this powerful
Kevin Shin:I don't think it's dramatic at all. What I think, you hit the nail on the head. Absolutely. The, the fact that cannabis is out there and the things that you mentioned that it can do and it is a textile, right? It's also, uh, I guess like a alcohol replacement. It's also a drug, right? And the pharmaceutical aspects of it, the, the cosmetics and the, the lines that you can develop that can help people, uh, even pets. Right. And if you look at the testimonials that we have for our pet line, you know, our pet paws, uh, the, the difference in coats and then differences, the pets and how they walk. And you see the difference as they are constantly treating with CBD. And as they get treated with CBD, you see Shinier coats, you see, uh, uh, you know, testimonials that have dogs with skin diseases disappear. And then dogs who have a hard time moving around, moving around a little bit easier. Right. Uh, I, I, I love the implications that this has, uh, not only because it's environmental friendly. I think that's, that's a great point to call out. You know, we can plant this in the ground. It's one of the fastest growing plants in the planet. Uh, it's, uh, yeah, it's basically a weed. It's one of the fastest growing plants in the planet. You know, it has lots of fat in it, so we can make plastics out of it. And then that's completely biodegradable. Right. Uh, we, you can make, uh, not only is the textile strengths very close to steel, uh, what it's also has anti, uh, uh, what fire properties. Oh wow. So it's flame retardant, right? It's there. There's a lot of applications for this that goes beyond, uh, uh, just basically, you know, getting high. But I'd like to liken it to probably like the oil industry and the second probably to something like the alcohol industry or the opioid industry. Right. But the opioid industry in a good way because, uh, the addiction ratings and then the fatalities toning don't right now exists. And research, you know, this is a safer drug than opioids.
Katie Utterback:Yeah. I had a, uh, I used to be a cannabis reporter and I had a defense attorney once tell me, I've never had someone come into my office because they smoked too much weed and then hit their wife. Never happened. Only at least to this defense attorney. He was like, the only thing I've ever had happen is somebody smoked too much. And then they passed out on the couch. Like
Kevin Shin:I talked to a lot of police officers, right. And he said, you know, they've seen a lot of angry drunks but then, you know, they, they meet a guy who smoked some weed and then most of the times when they go over there, they're invited in and say, Hey, do you want a glass of water?
Chase Peckham:That's funny. So do you think federally, can I getting back to that in my, I'm so interested in the medicinal side of it, but how soon and if they haven't already. Would the mainstream pharmaceutical pharmaceutical companies get involved because you know, doctors could be looking at this as pain relief, uh, and other, you know, cures or how soon does this get, those major players in pharmaceuticals involved if it hasn't already?
Kevin Shin:it's naive to believe that they're not. Of course they're already involved. We are actually working with doctors. We developed a, a doctor line for CBD that's distributed only through doctors for prescription usage. So the doctors can figure out what the patient, what the dosage is. We give it to neurologists we give to podiatrists, which is pain management. Uh, you know, we give it to a dermatologist, you know, we'd develop lines specifically for doctors because they wanted the CBD aspect because it's easier to just, you know, resell at their office, help bolster their income and not only bolster their income, help their patients, you know a lot of the patients don't want to be on the opioids anymore just because of the bad, the bad image it's gotten. And rightly so. There's 100%. Yup. Okay. The Johnson and Johnson's of the world and you said, Oh, you know, when are they going to get in the game? Uh, you know, I, I'm absolutely positive that they are spending tons of cash to figure out what's the next best. Yeah.
Chase Peckham:I would imagine, I think I asked a very loaded question,
Katie Utterback:but I do want to follow up on your question though, Chase, because, um, Kevin, you briefly mentioned his name, but one of your, you cofounded the Grove Group with Tiki Barber. How much, I guess, how important is the medical cannabis component to you guys simply because of the NFL and CTE related issues?
Kevin Shin:Why we went over to the more mainstream, uh, CBD factors, right? CBD is easier to distribute. Uh, the people don't have, the doctors don't have to be necessarily a card carrying prescription cannabis doctors or, uh, even understand, uh, something as complex as basically gift prescribing, uh, you know, marijuana to a patient. So we've been working with doctors to help relieve pain. Uh, we developed a product brand line, uh, pure X CBD and basically it's formulated for people that have anxiety, that have, uh, you know, muscle problems, inflammation problems, uh, needing to sleep. And we're, we're working with the doctors to create those formulations so that their patients have the best benefits available to them. That's easily done. And we're also helping them doctors because they get to earn, uh, some more money and the ability to basically, uh, give them a supplement that they can use that will better their life.
Katie Utterback:Are you working at all with the NFL in any way to try to see if the CBD products help players who may be suffering or more susceptible to developing CTE?
Kevin Shin:CTE, uh, that was actually done by a couple of other NFL-ers. Okay. Tiki and I, you know, like we'll, we'll talk and then we'll distribute you know, say amongst friends and family and, uh, say, Hey, you know, what do you think of this product when you think about product? Put this on here. You know, we've developed with the doctor, you know, see if this helps, see how that works. And we're getting just feedback in terms of how that specific physiology for that person who reacts to, uh, the formulations that were created.
Katie Utterback:So for, for those people who want to get involved in this industry, what makes, um, a canna-business a worthwhile investment for you? What are the things that you're looking for?
Kevin Shin:To have a tremendous amount of money you have to have influence with, with, with government, and you have to know what you're doing in terms of running a business, right? So if you can find that in a team and basically find people that have a good idea, that aren't charging an arm and leg for those valuations, then you know, you can possibly find things like, uh, if you look at the general stock market, they've been taking a beating. And I think, uh, you know, the top three is three in Canada has been down close to 65% valuation, uh, since last year. Uh, the, the, the public market, uh, the only reason I don't like the public market is because they need to use numbers each quarter. And then, uh, we like to take our time and finding investments that we think make sense and then developing and working with those investments so that they develop to the potential that we, we wanted to see from them. So, uh, if you're investing by yourself, uh, I would say do a lot of due diligence, uh, find out if you're not qualified to rate of business or don't understand manufacturing or don't understand, uh, distribution. If you don't understand how to run a store right then don't buy, you know, uh, shares, uh, a corporation, but manufacturers, I guess, you know, a factory of baselines or edibles or you know, a dispensary, like you have to understand the business and then you have to understand, you know, how much they can potentially make. Because, you know, projections are just projections. Everyone writes them, you know, a lot of people flop them up and, uh, you know, it's all good and dandy. So the rubber rubber meets the pavement.
Katie Utterback:That sounds like some pretty sound advice.
Chase Peckham:very sound advice. I've got a few friends that are involved in that, in Florida, started the business purely because their mother died of cancer. Um, it was an extraordinary pain and they would go over and get the medicinal and, uh, from the other. And they looked at it and this very, very savvy businessman. And he, uh, just started to do it and just over a long period of time didn't get too crazy, but got a lot of, you know, investments through friends and family and those kinds of things. And, uh, now the state of Florida has kind of loosened its rains a bit, um, and they're purely in the medicinal side of things and those products. Um, but he, he had literally a 10 year business plan and started this way before it was even legal in this day and age. Now he feels that he wouldn't be as successful now if he hadn't started when he did. Do you find that people now you're in such a crowded marketplace that it really has to be product specific rather than just getting into the quote unquote marijuana business?
Kevin Shin:That's a tough question because, uh, it's, it's not an easy answer. The easy answer is sure if, if this team has been around for multiple years and it's gone rec, uh, then you know what, your opportunities are going to be limited, uh, unless you have a tremendous amount of money behind you to develop a true campaign to earn market share, right? If you're talking about a new state that just came online, then it's still is the wild wild West there. Right? And then new States are coming online as we speak and you're having opportunities there. Right? But New York, New Jersey, uh, they're heavyweights States, they haven't gone recreational yet. Yet, they still have a very strong black market presence, uh, that actually harms their, their medical applications. Right. Cause you know, if you, if you talk to the doctors down in New York and New Jersey, uh, you know, the New York doctors telling you it's, yeah, know, I'll prescribe something to my patient, but then he'll go to his corner drug dealer and you'll get it. It's not hard to find,
Chase Peckham:which is dangerous.
Kevin Shin:Yeah. Well, you have to understand that they're smoking flower and then, you know, once the more fine products come and then, you know, the, the, the products become more mainstream than, you know, not everyone wants to smoke. Right. You know, I don't like inhaling a joint. Uh, I just don't like the feeling of it. You know, I would prefer another, another methodology in order to deliver that's, uh, a lot more controlled than a, you know, like a brownie or a cookie.
Chase Peckham:Yeah. Yeah. 100%.
Kevin Shin:So Kevin, just before we let you go, um, what do you, I guess, what are your, um, predictions for the industry and what do you think is, what are your goals, I guess for grove group? Do you hope to continue, um, doing exactly what you guys are doing? Or do you have any long-term goals you could share with us? What, what we see is grove groups. Big thing is we're gathering innovators, right? Like a lot of our guys are so obsessed with this and we've taken people that are successful in their own industry and it hasn't failed. And we asked them to switch industries and join us in cannabis. Like, I like to make that point out because, you know, we have some talented individuals that dream about cannabis at night and we come up with some great ideas and find out ways to help and develop products that are in our roster. So, you know, the distribution, the branding, uh, just creating, uh, I guess more clarity in the madness, right? Uh, we, we think that there's so many inefficiencies in the market we can fix. Uh, I would love to announce, uh, one of our new projects or that's already almost ready for market, but I can't yet. That's a huge game changers is disruptive technology. Uh,
Katie Utterback:I thought we were going to get your big announcement. Yeah.
Kevin Shin:Almost though. Cause trust me, I want to say it's so badly, but it's just such a game changer that I can't, you know, we just have to hold onto it for a little bit longer. Uh, they're like, there is a lot of opportunities here. You know, you know, there's B2B, uh, opportunities developing the sales, developing all the different lines. You know, we're looking at the, you know, the applications for CBD, the hopefully THC in the near future. And we're working to find ways to basically build a better mouse trap. You know, everyone does, doesn't stop and say, Oh yeah, we're good. You know, we're, we're locating inefficiencies, we're developing solutions. Uh, a lot of our guys will wake up, it's like, Hey, I dream about this. And then I think it might be a good solution. And then they write it down in their notebook and compare it in meetings. It's like, wow, that's fucking genius. Oh, sorry.
Katie Utterback:No, that's ok.
Kevin Shin:Sorry about that
Chase Peckham:in fact that just made the whole podcast. I hear the passion now. Yeah.
Kevin Shin:You know, we're, we're really passionate about it and then we really work on it. And then I, I just loved the participation, you know, even our shareholders, they come up with some, some amazing ideas as well. And then like a, I'd love to give out some shout outs but then I'd be breaking some NDAs.
Katie Utterback:Are you using these products by the way, when you're coming up with these grand ideas?
Kevin Shin:All right. So I am medical card user and then I do smoke and occasional J a and do vape on occasion, right? I'm staying away from the edibles now. Uh, and uh, what I do definitely use the CBD stuff. I love it. Uh, some of the products we've come out are absolute game changers for me, I have lower back problems and you know, using a certain, our CBD stuff's awesome.
Chase Peckham:Okay, so you hit me at lower back problems or are we talking muscle, lower back problems or are we talking like spinal structure Lower back problems.
Kevin Shin:Um, both, so muscle and you know, I'm probably going to have to go in for surgery eventually, but then they can't slow me down yet.
Chase Peckham:Do you have like stenosis or something like that?
Kevin Shin:Oh, I just It's just me being I guess a, a lot of the athlete and you know, doing, you know, living large, you know, I used to own a Ducati and race around and then I love skiing. I love being active. And then, uh, I think all of that just caught up to me one year and then my doctor's like, Oh yeah, you're missing a disc between here and here. And I'm like, do I need it? It's like, yes, you will.
Chase Peckham:Yeah, I'm paying for all that now. Just so you know. So I'm looking at the, uh, it's either surgery or, or just how do you learn to survive with it? And that's, that's what I'm having to look at.
Kevin Shin:Yeah. Like I, my sister is freaking awesome with that. Uh, you know, if you want to talk offline, I can give you her contact information. I'm sure she'll look at your charts like this is the right way to do it. She's so anti surgery
Chase Peckham:and I am too. I've heard horror stories, but at the same point, and I'm not, I'm at my age now, 48, I'm just worried that I don't want to be slumped over and have a cane when I'm 58, you know, when I'm 60.
Kevin Shin:Totally, totally understand you. I'm right there with you cause uh, right. You know, like I can't ski anymore. I can't run anymore because of the back problems. I'm like, ah, alright. You know, I'm going to have to get the surgery so I can just stay healthy.
Chase Peckham:Exactly. And that's, I'm trying to avoid that and that's what I'm trying to figure out. I've heard nightmare stories of people that have back surgery and yet, you know, I, I just know that they're looking that line. Trying to find the right product for you can be really overwhelming. Uh, I looked at it when my mother passed away and I went through a bout of anxiety after she died and I was like, this is crazy. And I tried CBD and it didn't work for me at all, but yet then somebody else gave me a little bit of a different brand of CBD and it calmed me right down. So it was like, I thought I'd done all this great research and yet didn't work for me. So I, and then did, so it's just, I think navigating that world is, you know, some CBDs are$49 a bottle, some are$350 a bottle. So is price always better? I mean that's kind of where this.
Kevin Shin:Pricce isn't better cause you don't know what's exactly in it,
Chase Peckham:but do you ever, I mean, it's hard to know, right?
Kevin Shin:Even when you agree the ingredients, like I said, I'd rather see some news articles on that specific corporation, uh, that's mentioned in the news, right. Uh, and hopefully buy it from a major retailer because you know what, they do some checks and make sure that they have insurance and everything like that for their products. Right. So then you're getting real producers. Gotcha. Uh, I, I would say that one there, there's something called the diag diagnostic, uh, differential. So then what may be prescribed to you might not necessarily work cause physiology. Like I've seen people get loopy on a CBD tincture and the person's an absolute giant, you know, maybe like six five 340 pounds completely, just a total rock. And then take like a couple of drops CBD, which would do nothing for me and I'm like five eight and like 165 and like it'll do absolutely nothing for me. The person there will be like, ah man, I gotta sit down for a second. Wow, Whoa. You know, the, the physiology and how the chemical pathways work for each body is a little bit different. So then there is going to be real experimentation that goes on, which is why they know we like to team up with the doctors so that when they do give it to their patients then you know, they construct and find out, you know which one works.
Chase Peckham:Right. And that's no different than pharmaceuticals. It's no different than let's say I never had the opportunity to take it cause I didn't want to. But you know, when they were looking at talking about whether it be depression medication or something like that, it's trial and error for them to uh, constantly cause everybody reacts differently to different products or different, again, physiology, right?
Kevin Shin:With cannabis, there is a small percentage of the population that gets anxious because of it. Everyone else might hit chilled out and then, you know, anxiety is actually one of the top four things that uh, you know, cannabis is known to help for. And you know, for a small percentage it's the absolute opposite. They get anxious, uh, you know, it's not for them. So, you know, each person has to do their own thing and see how well it works.
Chase Peckham:I think that that's, I can hear the absolute passion that you have for what you're doing and I can imagine that the sky's the limit for you and your organization. And I can't thank you enough for taking the time to be with us today.
Kevin Shin:We had like a cool little chat, so it's a good time for me. I love doing things like this. if you ever want to discuss again, hit me up.
Chase Peckham:And now for a little follow up with myself. Phil and Katie. Kevin Shin. Yeah, that was, that was very fun. I enjoyed the heck out of that guy. I didn't know going in quite where we were going to go with that and he was very engaging, incredibly smart. I mean you could hear that from all the way across the country via the phone line. Although the connection was a little funky here and there. But he, he's got something going.
Katie Utterback:Yeah. I mean I didn't know how this interview was going to go either cause it's like I mentioned I was a cannabis reporter and so sometimes you get people that are very willing to share their experience using a product or something or they'll be more open about the challenges or something. And he was great because he was willing to share that he uses it personally. You know,
Chase Peckham:from time to time.
Katie Utterback:From time to time.
Chase Peckham:No gummies. Stopped with the gummies.
Katie Utterback:But I think it's cool too how when you're talking about an investment, I think there's all different types of investments you can do. It's cool when there's kind of a social justice aspect to it. And I know we briefly mentioned this during the interview, but I actually have a number now. So back around 2012, 2013, before there was any sort of recreational legalization within the United States, there were about 2,000 arrests per day for like.
Chase Peckham:possession.
Katie Utterback:Yeah.
Chase Peckham:Use.
Katie Utterback:Yes. Just for marijuana. Yeah. I also want to circle back to that too. The reason I was using the term cannabis instead of marijuana, sometimes marijuana is only referring to the part of the plant that's got that psychoactive component. THC, THC, tetrahydrocannabinol.
Chase Peckham:Can you tell how much I use it?
Katie Utterback:um, but there's also, um, back in like the 1930s, when reefer madness and prohibition started, uh, regarding this plant, it was kind of a racist term, a slur. So that's another reason why you'll see a lot of.
Chase Peckham:Cannabis was?
Katie Utterback:No marijuana was.
Chase Peckham:really, yeah. Why would that be a racist term?
Katie Utterback:So back in like 1937 ish, um, that's when you started to see jazz started coming out. Yeah. Um, he saw a lot of people from Mexico started coming up in the South East region. Like Lousiana, Mississippi.
Chase Peckham:So what you're saying is culturally marijuana was kind of attached to the African American scene?
Katie Utterback:not even just the African Americans. There was also attached to the Chinese and it was attached to people that practiced, um, voodoo magic.
Chase Peckham:medicines because the Chinese have used it for generation, I mean forever or right,
Katie Utterback:right. I mean, even in the US too, there was a federal medical marijuana program. I looked.
Chase Peckham:back in the thirties?!
Katie Utterback:no, so it was called the compassionate use, investigational new drug program. And this is what, this is what happened. There was this guy named Robert Randall and he was arrested in 1976 for growing cannabis on his deck. So he came out and said, the reason I'm growing this plant is because I have really a severe form of glaucoma and this is the only thing that's helping me keep my vision. So he went to court over it. May 10th, 1978, the U S government basically opened up this federal medical marijuana program and.
Chase Peckham:back in the 70s?!
Katie Utterback:So 15 people ended up being admitted, thousands and thousands and thousands of people applied 15 and then they closed the program. They closed the program in 1992. Um,
Chase Peckham:more people use that in studio 57. Wait,
Katie Utterback:Studio 54. Yeah. So I actually, back when I was a cannabis reporter, I interviewed some of the surviving, uh, folks who were part of that federal medical marijuana program. So to this day, I don't know if anyone is still alive in 2020, but back in 2012 when I was talking to some of these people, they get about 300 joints a month from the U S federal government.
Chase Peckham:No way. Yeah. And joints like rolled joints.
Katie Utterback:However, they all told me that the joints are some of the poorest quality and a lot of the joints are filled with the seeds and the sticks, which you're not supposed to smoke that part of the plant. You're supposed to smoke the bud.
Chase Peckham:Who do they get it from?
Katie Utterback:So there is a federal researcher from the university of Mississippi and he's like, this is t.
Chase Peckham:he rolls them and sends them to these people,
Katie Utterback:I think they have a machine. But then another problem was that they would freeze dry the bud, which ruins the THC. Apparently you have to use THC is only active for about three years or something. So back.
Chase Peckham:as all plants die.
Katie Utterback:Right. So when I was talking to these people back in 2012 they were saying they were getting joints that said on the label it was made in like 1996. Oh yeah. So a lot of them went to the black market because what they were getting wasn't good enough. But some of these stories were things like people weren't able to keep, uh, medicines down for various like chemotherapy and everything. So a lot of these people hadn't eaten in weeks and there was one man in particular, he hadn't eaten in weeks. He was basically told by the doctors, you're going to die in this hospital. And at one point a nurse was like, okay, you're dying.
Chase Peckham:They were feeding him intravenously if he's in.
Katie Utterback:correct. So he, um, hadn't eaten anything like on his own. And so a nurse was like, Hey, we have, um, a patient down here who has some marijuana cigarettes. Would you like to try one of these instead of smoking your tobacco cigarette? He agreed. He was like, well, I'm dying. Anyway, later that day he ordered food. He was hungry for the first time in weeks. He was released from the hospital. I interviewed him in 2012.
Chase Peckham:Oh my goodness. Wow.
Katie Utterback:Yeah, so there's money to be made here.
Chase Peckham:I think that's the part of this, that this specific episode is so interesting to me because you know, obviously we're a financial show, right? And we talk about the opportunities for finances and helping yourself and, and, and that's exactly what Kevin was talking about is, is being a almost like a steward, you know, making sure that there's quality products, but he wasn't, he wasn't sitting back saying, I'm doing this for the quality of, you know, society. They're making a buck and they're making a legitimate business out of this, which is, Hey, when creating a business and making money became a crime and socially unacceptable, I don't know, but good for him as long as those products that they're creating are serious quality because people will pay for quality products and it's those black market and those CBD that we talked about in 711's and those kinds of thing. Not saying the 7 1 has bad products, but those aren't the products that we're talking about typically for healing people, right?
Katie Utterback:There's a difference.
Chase Peckham:There's a big difference.
Felipe Arevalo:when it's a big industry and if you think about big industries, there's not that many of them where you can say, I got in pretty close to the ground floor and it's a newer industry. You can't just jump into most industries and say that you were on the front and like you know, way early in the process and this is one of those opportunities where if you were in the industry right now, you're kind of in at the ground floor,
Chase Peckham:you're in at the ground floor and he's going to be in the ground floor a few more times, maybe more than a few.
Felipe Arevalo:and you might lose some. Well he was well aware of that, but.
Chase Peckham:The landscape's going to change. The laws will change the way they create the plant might change. There's going to be all different kinds of things. And then as he mentioned, more States come on board or if they make it federally, you know the landscape of the way they sell it, the way they create it, the way they make it, the way we invest in it all might. It's going to change. It's gonna. It's going to be an evolving thing. And I think that's why Kevin was so fascinating to me in the fact that he and his team are aware of this and they are ready for every change. In fact, not being ahead of the game and creating and help helping create the change or, or how it's evolving I think for, for us, cause we can sit here and talk about socially whether we think that it should be legal and because that's not really the discussion anymore. Right? That's.
Katie Utterback:no, but there's a financial component to that, right?
Chase Peckham:a huge financial component to it because we're talking about, as you mentioned before, as a, it was all illegal. So any marijuana that was being smoked or being sold was the illegal inside the borders of the United States, Mexico and Canada for the longest time as well. Now Canada is a federal federally, uh, across the nation, uh, selling it and creating it and doing all that. I don't think the US is going to be far behind the federally because of all the positive things that can come of it.
Katie Utterback:Well, I think the banking aspect is going to play a huge role too. Absolutely. Um, here in California, even though we have recreational, it's legal, you still have to pay in cash for any sort of product that you may purchase at a legal dispensary. There are some dispensaries now that do have lines of credit that they offer. Um, but I mean that's a question in itself too. This is not, I mean, if you buy 10 joints on a credit card and you can't pay it back, it's not like somebody can take those joints back if you smoke them.
Chase Peckham:And the reason the banks do that is because most of the large banks are federal, right. And international. So they are going to try to very difficult to follow state regulations for each state.
Katie Utterback:Well, any federally insured bank will not even touch it. Allow us to savings account because you're right, it could be taken in a forfeiture, right.
Chase Peckham:So if it was a local, only a state run, uh, let's just say credit, uh, then the NCU. Yes. I see what you're saying. Federal insurance is not going to cover it all.
Katie Utterback:So, yeah, but even just from like bringing it back to more, I guess, consumer day to day life, because after Kevin said you need half a million dollars to invest in his company, like I am out, I don't have that kind of money. Right. Um, but it is interesting because these people are pushing for legalization. Um, it's an interesting kind of safety question too going back to the banking. Um, he mentioned some of the money that people have stored has been eaten by rats. Yeah. I've also heard from people that at the end of the day, because all of their employees are paid in cash, all of their money has to go somewhere safe. They'll have about five cars when they're closing up a shop. At the end of the day, the money goes in one and all the cars go different ways to try to confuse, you know,
Chase Peckham:if anybody's watching them. Correct. Right. That makes, Oh my God, I can't imagine living like that every single day.
Felipe Arevalo:I know. That makes a perfectly-legal in California business operate a lot like a black market business.
Chase Peckham:Absolutely. Yeah. Even though it's legal, even they're operating like they are run by the mafia right now. I know nothing the mafia, but what I see in movies. But as I would imagine, they're not that they're laundering the money, they just have nowhere to put it. Right. And then, and then that goes into why the federal government wouldn't do it is because now you're paying all these people in cash. How do they possibly pay the taxes that are due on that?
Katie Utterback:You're not paying taxes.
Chase Peckham:You're not.
Katie Utterback:Most of the time you're not paying tax. I mean for us in California, if you go to a medicinal dispensary, you're paying less of a tax than you would if you went to a recreational dispensary. Um,
Chase Peckham:the state of California is making getting taxes on that, right?
Katie Utterback:That, that was a state decision.
Chase Peckham:So where are they putting their money?
Katie Utterback:So it's all, all the States are different. California, I, I believe a lot of our tax dollars on marijuana, cannabis related products goes toward public schools and education.
Chase Peckham:Where do they put that?
Katie Utterback:Oh, good question.
Chase Peckham:If they're not putting it in a bank, where does that money go? Where does the state of California keep it?
Katie Utterback:We're going to have to get the cannabis task force on the show.
Chase Peckham:Well, that's what I'm saying. You know, the state of California is no different than you and me individually. Right. In theory, banks right there, they're getting that money in there has to sit somewhere to be paid out to go to schools or wherever they say it's going to go. Is it going to the same place that they make money? You know where we buy lottery tickets is, I mean, where does this all go? That's got to sit somewhere. Yeah.[inaudible] Investigative reporting.
Katie Utterback:I know.
Felipe Arevalo:you got Katie's attention now.
Katie Utterback:I do because I think it's such an interesting thing. Um, I had a woman talk to me back in the day and she was saying just being a female, it's scary if you're buying cannabis on the black market because here you are, you can't really tell the cops where you're going. Now you're dealing with a hundred percent cash. What happens if it doesn't go well?
Chase Peckham:Yeah, that's true.
Katie Utterback:You don't really have a lot of options. So legalization was kind of also seen as a safety thing for some minority groups too. And I think like a financial component in there too. Like it's going to be interesting to see what happens to um, the minority groups that were first kind of punished for their participation in the cannabis market. But now it's going a whole different way.
Chase Peckham:So I think we're obviously finding out that cannabis can help society in so many ways.
Katie Utterback:Do you think the tax dollars.
Chase Peckham:I mean it helps your dog, I mean, Oh yeah. It makes him realize that he wants to keep you home every day. I don't know if that's the case.
Katie Utterback:It might be so, yeah. Truth.
Chase Peckham:CBD, right?
Katie Utterback:Yeah. So my dog, he's six months old and he started losing a lot of his teeth and he was bleeding a lot when he was losing his teeth. And there was one day he lost three teeth and I had been giving him toys and I even gave him a t- shirt of mine to just bite on, to try to, yeah, just to stop the bleeding. Nothing was working. I'm a nervous mom, so I didn't know what to do. I called the vet and she suggested I give him a CBD ice cube. So I went to the store and they have CBD infused water here.
Chase Peckham:at like PetSmart or Petco?
Katie Utterback:No. So I went to a dispensary because I've had experience talking to people like Kevin before. I really wanted the quality CBD. Um, my dog eats better than I do, like let's just be real. He has better things like his world. Everything is like organic and clean and fresh. Um, but so I got him ice cubes, but then I saw that they had this little, I thought it was the travel size CBD for pets, like kind of a tincture. I've seen little kids use it and they stopped having seizures or their seizures were less intense. So I was very much so willing to try it for him. Um, I also had learned that the CBD tincture helps pets with separation anxiety issues, which the separation anxiety starts to show around six months too. So it turns out that was$80. It wasn't the travel size. I was too embarrassed to say, I didn't know how much it costs. So I completed my transaction, but when I gave it.
Chase Peckham:In the grand scheme of things$80 is not very much.
Katie Utterback:No, I mean that's the thing,
Chase Peckham:going to the vet and getting whatever medications you were going to have to get for the dog to do that kind of thing.
Katie Utterback:Right. Well and if he had like if he coughed once, didn't even have kennel cough but just coughed once, I probably would already be pleading with God. Like okay$80 is nothing. Like I'll pay you$160 just please like let him be. Okay cause that practice and it's going to be worse. I was telling Felipe, I just bought Jagger a seatbelt. It's been like a, well it's like a seatbelt harness and it's the only one that's been, it's one of three that's been crash tested in everything for a dog. Like my, I'm not kidding, my dog literally gets like creme de LA creme over here.
Chase Peckham:I put the seatbelt on, my dog wants just because I'm sick of that ding, ding, ding seatbelt. He doesn't like that very much. He just got out of it. So, but I keep it locked so it won't cause it's heavy enough to put off the sensor sensor.
Katie Utterback:This one is going to He has like a little harness and then there's a kind of like a car seat. Can you please take a picture? In fact, will you take a picture and p osted on our site? So when people listen to this they can see what you're talking about. I should also post a picture. We're trying to teach Jagger how to catch a Frisbee. He hasn't quite figured it out. So his face is just k ind o f through, u m, the h ole a little bit. I'm trying to bring up a picture a nd show, g eez. But yeah, his face just k inda sticks right through. And that's my dog.
Felipe Arevalo:See, there was a thing on Twitter and it was like, uh, explain your podcast co-hosts in one tweet or we're using one GIF and I tweeted a picture of some people sitting, two people sitting in a tub full of puppies. It's like, Oh, here's Chase and Katie. That's funny.
Katie Utterback:But yeah, here's Jagger trying to carry a Frisbee.
Chase Peckham:Oh my goodness.
Katie Utterback:That's, yeah. So his head is just through the hole in the middle. And yeah.
Chase Peckham:My dog is a golden retriever. He's a golden doodle and golden retriever. God bless him. He's, he's in remission right now. He's going through a lymphoma and his hair is starting to fall out. Uh, so he's getting, you know, he had this beautiful thick coat that we kept trimmed cause he looked more golden than, uh, than poodle. But, uh, he, it's really thinning out. And so even though he's healthy right now, uh, he looks more sickly than he ever has. Uh, mostly just because he, with a poodle, you've got real hair versus fur right. Which for that sheds all the time where the doodles have hair that they don't shed. That's why they don't have dander. That's, you know, or, or their dander danders not quite, uh, as, it doesn't bother people as much cause it doesn't go anywhere. It's just on the dog. Hypoallergenic. Right. Uh, but he, for the first time we've owned the dog, the kids are going, Oh my gosh, what's Jackson shedding on me? And it's because of the chemo. And they said that would happen. Um, but you talked about retreat. That dog will run after a ball and pick it up on the ground. Only when it stops. A Frisbee. He will not try to, he will not try to catch it. In fact, it just donks him on the face or he gets out of the way and then he won't return it. He won't retrieve it or he will retrieve it, but he won't return it. And he'll walk upright to you and you try to grab it and then it's like keep away. Yeah. Dumbest retriever I've ever met and I blame the poodle part of him. For those of you with poodles, and I know they're very smart, they are very smart, but they're also, they are very conniving. Yes. They're not retrievers and he wont swim. You've ever met a golden retriever? The ones who are scared to death of water hates it. Absolutely hates it. Back to CBD and cannabis. Sorry, going off kilter here.
Katie Utterback:That's a great point though. Like this industry, think of the money that you could make just from the pet angle alone. Yes. Yeah. You know,
Felipe Arevalo:Oh, people spend money on their pets.
Chase Peckham:He talked about it to Kevin. Kevin talked about the different quality of products that can, can come from this. I have, um, friends of ours that we used to be name my neighbors, but still live in our neighborhood and their poor little daughter has had epileptic seizures for since she was nine months old, 10 months old in there. And she, they're terrible. I mean, some of these things would last 15 minutes. I mean, really long. And they have done everything and they have done all kinds of studies and they've gone to the best hospitals up in UCLA and up in, uh, children's and a Cedar sign and all these places. And they've come a long way. But the one thing that helped her more than anything, and that was before it was legalized in different States, they've found that the doctors with these seizures were like, started her on cannabis without the THC. Yes. But it helped a lot. Um, still has the seizures, but not to near the severity that she was, um, you know, obviously S, you know, seizures and I, I'm no expert on any of that at all, but all I know is as a parent and as a friend of parents who have to deal with and have to have a, a child that is, could be struck with these seizures at any time. Uh, I know that that was, that helped them. And not only that, the stress levels that they were going through, that, you know, they can use the to help ease their nerves, um, and, and ease them along. I mean, how can people ever be against this and how can we not want to use this for medicinal purposes or recreation? I mean, it's been, I mean, shoot, we all, I drink a beer. I drink two, three, four, sometimes five in a given weekend and society's fine with that. But we're not okay with smoking a plant. It doesn't make sense to me at all. And I was a kid that grew up not, I never smoked a joint in my life. To this day. I smoked one since it's been legal. Right. And I joke with my son because he's, you know, he doesn't like to follow rules quite as much. I was the super rule follower. Right. And so if it was illegal, I didn't do it, although I did probably have a beer or two before I was 21, you know, so I guess it wasn't straight across the board, but when it came to something like that, I just didn't want to get in trouble. The, the point that I'm trying to make is, is that we are so far along in this and their studies have shown so much that how is this not from at the federal level happening? I mean for a government that loves the, created the, the, the um, C CPF, I always screw it up.
Katie Utterback:Oh, the CFPB, Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.
Chase Peckham:CFPB, thank you. Every time. And I work with them all the time and they're great. The problem is we want to regulate everything. How are we not getting on top of this right now a nd finding out how can this both work economically and then get this to the masses for all different types of usage and have our banks figure out how to do this.
Katie Utterback:because people are still making money off of the prohibition. I think that would be the greatest. But going back to what.
Chase Peckham:But does the government care about black market and people selling this, maybe they do.
Felipe Arevalo:I think it would be interesting to see what happens to the black market?
Chase Peckham:are we worried about black market trade coming out of Mexico?
Felipe Arevalo:I think it'd be interesting,
Chase Peckham:and I'm talking about cannabis, I'm not talking about the other drugs that come up that.
Felipe Arevalo:I think it'd be interesting to see if it were legalized in a, on a national level. Um, what that would do to the black market of it.
Katie Utterback:Well it has been legalized in Uruguay and Canada already.
Felipe Arevalo:That's true.
Chase Peckham:And it's legal in some European nations.
Katie Utterback:So partially I looked into this just so I could make sure I was accurate.
Chase Peckham:Don't tell me it's not legal in the Netherlands. Everything's legal in the Netherlands.
Katie Utterback:It's not. It is technically not legal in Amsterdam,
Chase Peckham:You can do mushrooms.
Katie Utterback:So cannabis is legal in the specific pot shops in the Netherlands. So that's the catch.
Chase Peckham:So in the Netherlands, and I think we should clarify this right, there are specific areas of the country that where these uses are. Okay.
Katie Utterback:Yes. So Amsterdam.
Chase Peckham:in Amsterdam, right.
Katie Utterback:You would still have to go into the pot shop now because there are,
Chase Peckham:you can't do it on the street.
Katie Utterback:technically, no. But this is where again, um, Spain is another example. It's technically not legal. I'm in Spain, but there are clubs where you can go. Denmark is similar, there are shops, you can go. Colombia has some sort of medical and Chile has some medical. But again, it's kind of like when marijuana was medically legalized in California, it if you smelled it like a cop wasn't necessarily going to say like, show me your medical ID card.
Chase Peckham:if you've. if you've ever been to a concert since by speaking from my experience, my first concert. But it's really any, any genre, any genre. Yeah. My first one was lingo Bango when I was in eighth grade. I'm telling you it is a strong smell and I didn't see any cops around there looking for people. So I mean even though you know it's.
Katie Utterback:speaking of the odor.
Chase Peckham:Interesting.
Katie Utterback:I interviewed, I interviewed.
Chase Peckham:the odor. I love the smell.
Felipe Arevalo:Really.
Katie Utterback:Okay.
Chase Peckham:I love it. I do.
Katie Utterback:So this guy that I interviewed, he works for,
Chase Peckham:I'm not a supertaster though.
Katie Utterback:He works for NORML. It's the national organization for the reform of marijuana laws. N O R M L Norml. And he was telling me that he's been smoking weed for so long that when he smells a skunk, like his mouth starts to salivate because there's a similar similar, yeah. So here is, but his mouth will literally salivate
Felipe Arevalo:That's funny.
Katie Utterback:It just cracked me up. I've never, every time I smell a skunk, no. Like Oh I wonder.
Chase Peckham:there is a, there is a difference. One is much stronger than the other, but yeah, there is. There is very similar. Yeah. Well sometimes you're like, I hate the smell of skunk, so go figure.
Felipe Arevalo:You walk through like a parking lot. My kid was like, Oh, there's a skunk nearby. No buddy that was something else. I had to explain to him. I was like, no, I don't think that must've been something else.
Chase Peckham:You notice the big old smile that comes across our face though, when you ever noticed that when you smell it,
Katie Utterback:you can't be mad.
Chase Peckham:You can't, I mean, how can something that makes you so happy? Let me think about this. I mean, you ever had an officer who is going to come into your house because somebody has been called and if somebody is drunk, right, chances are the drunk is going to get disorderly and get angry and fight the cop. The cops will always say, I never, I never met anybody that wanted to beat us up. They invite us in for food.
Katie Utterback:I mean, it's true. Like I I know that there are some people that do have a bad reaction with anything else. Right. But that's the point. Like anything else. Right. Um, but I want to circle back to what you were saying though about your friend who has a child, um, who benefits from CBD CBD. Okay. Um,
Chase Peckham:and I, I can't say whether it's from the hemp plant or the, or the cannabis. I believe it is from the cannabis plant that they're using these H the CBD from, cause they're, they're related but they're not the same thing.
Katie Utterback:Yeah. So hemp is usually more of the stock. Um, the bud that you actually smoke is the flower. So it's the female part of the plant. Hemp I think is the more masculine, the male part of the plant. Gotcha. Um, CBD technically to be effective has a little bit of THC in it,
Chase Peckham:but so minute.
Katie Utterback:Yes. So for pediatric patients they will try to lessen that THC. There are some pediatric patients who do need a higher dosage of THC. So I mean that's interesting in itself, but what I wanted to bring up is the green rush and the number of people who had to move out of their home state to a different state just to help their kid get access
Felipe Arevalo:I have seen some of that, some news stories about it on, on TV when it first happened, like Colorado and then,
Katie Utterback:yeah. Yeah. So I think it's interesting, a lot of times, um, attention is paid to the bigger coastal States, but this is where a lot of legalization happened first. So I think it would be interesting to see economically if the country were to legalize nationwide, how demographic demographics would maybe change and state populations would maybe change.
Chase Peckham:Yeah, that's interesting. That's a sociology, that'd be interesting.
Katie Utterback:But I mean, I do wonder how it affected pricing of housing cause Colorado be one of the first to legalize. That's where everyone was going.
Chase Peckham:Absolutely.
Katie Utterback:You know,
Felipe Arevalo:I didn't think he mentioned and you know, with everything else, I mean this is beer, everything else. Trying to find a way to enforce it as far as public safety, which is very important, you know, and he mentioned that they're trying to be responsible for everything. It's the public safety, safety aspect of it, the driving. Um, and yeah, and how that takes into place with, what are the financial penalties for an infraction? What are the insurance increases for infractions? Much like, you know, you're trying the standards for, is it the same standards as alcohol? Is it, you know,
Chase Peckham:I don't think so. I think that's all going to have to be studied. It's affecting, you know, I guess I would think that marijuana is not going to get into your blood system. It is in your blood system. But is it the same weightedness as alcohol? R ight.
Katie Utterback:It's more,
Chase Peckham:it's stronger,
Katie Utterback:so well, yes and no. So what happens is when you, if you were to smoke a joint and you never smoked a joint, you may have traces of cannabis in your system 30 days later. If you are a frequent regular user, it may take months and months and months for any trace to be fully washed out from your body.
Chase Peckham:I am aware of this for the mere fact that a lot of companies do test for it. Yeah. And many, many people have lost their jobs or didn't get hired because of that very thing and they're like, but I haven't done that in weeks and it's still there.
Katie Utterback:So yeah. So the employment factor too, because even though it's legal in California, if you work for a national company, that can be a reason that affects your employment.
Chase Peckham:Yup. Especially if you're already working in a business where you drive or operate machinery or anything like that. Yeah.
Katie Utterback:People with the commercial driver's license far more effected to Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Chase Peckham:And can you imagine those people that have commercial licenses in their backs are bad because they sit and drive all the time and they could use it because they're, you know?
Katie Utterback:Right. But I mean even the creation then of CBD proper equipment to properly test whether or not someone's high.
Felipe Arevalo:I mean that's going to be a breathalyzer.
Katie Utterback:No, they had, in Colorado they have these like nose breathalyzers where they can like smell like cops. Like put it almost like a nose binoculars and like smell the intensity, see where it's coming.
Felipe Arevalo:It's interesting.
Chase Peckham:There are so many other episodes that we are getting out of this round table, people that we need to interview and find out how this is economically going to hit us at so many different ways. So stay tuned for that cause we will, we will get that. What's up?
Katie Utterback:Next week we're having a guest who's going to help us try to talk about the financial challenges specific to the LGBTQ community, and then we have another episode coming up on addiction and finance.
Chase Peckham:That's awesome. Look forward to that. Until next time.