Talk Wealth to Me

#034: Financial Challenges for the LGBTQ+ Community

February 28, 2020 Felipe Arevalo, Chase Peckham, Katie Utterback, David Rae, CFP Season 2 Episode 8
Talk Wealth to Me
#034: Financial Challenges for the LGBTQ+ Community
Show Notes Transcript

A study from the credit bureau Experian found that 62% of LGBTQ individuals experienced financial challenges because of their sexual orientation or gender identity.

Joining us on the show is David Rae, Certified Financial Planner™, Accredited Investment Fiduciary™, and President / Founder of DRM Wealth Management LLC. David joins us to provide some insight as to what kind of financial challenges members of the LGBTQ persons face compared to the general population, as well as tips on how to better your financial situation regardless of your sexual orientation or gender identity.

According to the 13th LGBTQ Community Survey from San Francisco-based Community Marketing:

  • 73% of LGBTQ people eat dinner out at least once a week
  • 69% buy wine while out or for use at home
  • 77% pay for streaming TV subscriptions
  • 52% regularly attend live theater or musicals
  • 73% buy facial moisturizer
  • 41% have paid for a clothing item worth more than $100 in the past year. 
  • 86% took at least one vacation or leisure trip in 2019 
    • one-third took four or more.
  • Many LGBTQ community members have shared some excessive spending occurs because they are either hiding who they are or for the first time don't feel they have to hide who they are and want to belong to a community. 

On top of the emotional stress, life can also be financially stressful because of job insecurity and the inability to pursue higher incomes. 

  • LGBTQ persons can be fired for being gay or transgender in more than half of the 50 states.
    • Transgender people are more likely to have household incomes of $12,000 or less. In fact, according to the most recent U.S. Transgender survey, 29 percent of respondents are living in poverty, compared with just 12 percent of the general population. 

Additionally, members of the LGBTQ Community face financial challenges such as:

  • Pay Gap
    • Gay Men earn about 69 cents on the dollar to their straight male peers
    • Lesbian Women earn about 89 cents on the dollar to their straight female peers
  • Higher Living Costs
    • Areas traditionally more welcoming to LGBTQ persons come with higher price tags. For example, Manhattan and San Francisco are well known for being both LGBT-friendly and budget-unfriendly. Living costs in the respective areas are 195 percent and 118 percent above the national average, according to research firm Sperling's Best Places
    • States with the lowest living costs – West Virginia and Arkansas at 17 percent below the national average and Oklahoma at 16 percent below average – are also among the 20 states that do not have hate crime laws specifically protecting LGBT people.
  • Retirement
    • 7 in 10 LGBTQ Americans say they are behind on saving for retirement. 
    • AIDS Epidemic: Many gay men now in their 60s - 80s didn't save for their retirement or old age because they didn't expect to survive the AIDS epidemic. 
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Intro:

Welcome to Talk Wealth to Me a safe space podcast where we chat about anything and everything related to personal finance.

Felipe Arevalo:

The information contained in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It does not constitute as accounting, legal, tax or other professional advice.

Chase Peckham:

Hello and welcome to another edition of Talk Wealth to Me. Did you know that more than 60% the LGBTQ community members reported experiencing financial challenges because of their sexual orientation or gender identity? Neither did I, but we're going to talk about that today with Mr. David Rae. He is a certified financial planner and accredited investment fiduciary and president and founder of DRM Wealth Management LLC. You can find many, many articles. You can find his blog and you can find him even on TV. This man knows his personal finance. He's next. As we go along. I've done a lot of research on what a lot of your articles and you touch on this a lot. Give us an idea of research that's been done, studies that have been done that this community is behind the general public.

David Rae, CFP:

So there's , there's kind of both directions. There's some research to say that there's obviously a lot of visible people that are at the top that are doing very well for every Ellen and Elton John, they're , you know , millions of hundreds of thousands of people that are struggling. And there are definite challenges for the community because between discrimination, being kicked out of the house , um , homelessness, especially like, you know, 50% of youth homeless people are identify as non non-heterosexual. So there's a huge challenge there. And if you're homeless as a teenager , uh, not to be negative, but I'm going to assume you're going to run into some financial challenges later on in life. It's not, you're just behind the eight ball from that. And then you just kind of have the more normal things that people just don't have the milestones . You know, if you don't get married, you don't have kids or you're not able to do a lot of things , more traditional points in life. If someone get serious about their finances, you just never took the steps. So you might be extremely successful, but all of a sudden you're 60 and you've never saved any money or you know, you've racked up credit card debt or you know, there's a , there's a whole generation who probably thought were HIV they were never going to make it to retirement. So they cashed in what they had or they spent every penny they made and enjoyed life along the way. Good news. HIV is manageable now, but bad news for your retirement plan yet saved anything.

Katie Utterback:

I want to actually go a step back and ask you, David, when did one sexual orientation , um, start to play a role in your finances? Or do you have any information on when people had to start kind of vocalizing what their life looked like with their financial advisor so that they could plan accordingly? Is this something to Chase's point? Is this new even though there has been an LGBTQ community from the beginning of time. So how long have we, I guess, at least acknowledge that there are different , um, financial I guess, steps that we have to, there's different financial , um, I'm trying to think of the wording but like different , um, priorities maybe .

David Rae, CFP:

Yeah. And I think, you know, if you were legally married, which the gay community was not able to do until fairly recently, so it was their history. We have not been getting married. You have to talk finances with your , your spouse at least once a year. When you file taxes, having to leave. It doesn't mean you're going to plan to retire appropriate insurance or pay off your debt, but you're , you're forced by the government to at least do something financially with your spouse or partner. Um , at that point in time where I was, I was dealing with couples that had been together 20 or 30 years and they've never talked finances at all. So that doesn't always translate into problems. But you can imagine you're not really necessarily on the same page or a problem like credit card debt can fester. And you could have, you know, maybe a positive net worth between two, two partners. You know, the , the one husband is making tons of money and saving money and the other husband is probably doing fine in spending all that money. So you know, the , the credit card debt is balanced out by the, the net worth of the retirement account or the other. But that's not really how you want to make decisions cause that interest on that credit card is probably a much larger number than what that person is earning on their retirement accounts, that type of thing. And I think until recently, you weren't really forced to make these decisions. There obviously were couples that made choices and plan together and they're definitely couples who did not.

Katie Utterback:

Well, and you, you kind of touched on this briefly when you were mentioning , um , not everyone in the LGBTQ community has saved enough for retirement. Um , and then you mentioned too that legalized , um , marriage for LGBTQ couples. That's a recent ruling. Um, what was that 2015 that ruling?

Chase Peckham:

Um , it depends on the state.

Katie Utterback:

Yeah. Well, and then the state laws too. They'res not every state. Um, you have all those protections. So talk to me a little bit about that too. Cause I think a lot of people assume that when there was legalized gay marriage that that just took care of a lot of financial issues or um, worrying about if your spouse is going to get your retirement earnings if something happens to you. I mean there's a lot that needs to be improved upon. Is, is what I guess I'm, that's my takeaway from all of the articles that you've been writing.

David Rae, CFP:

Yeah. So if we just look at the general population, kind of everyone in America, something like 50% of people have no money saved for retirement. So, you know, we're starting from a pretty low bar here and that's with marriage and that's with knowing and education and all these things that we have that are available to us to make us aware that we need to save for retirement. But if we take it to the gay community, the LGBT community, there are not planning. There's just less likely that they're going to plan for their future. There's just a lot more pressure to spend money now on your lifestyle. There's maybe not, you're not okay, I'm having kids. I need to get serious about my finances or I'm getting married. I need to get serious about my finances. So they just never did it. And there are a lot of people who had great careers, made tons of money, they just have nothing to show for it. And to be fair , there are definitely people who are great savers in the LGBT community, so I don't want a blanket at 100% but there , there are challenges and without some of the legal protection, you would see a spouse or someone who is not legally married, but in their minds together they were legally married or they were married in their , in their hearts I guess is a nice way to put it. And they had no rights to the other person assets. You know they were treated like a roommate or not even as well as a roommate. If they weren't on the lease . A lot of times you would see families come in in the 81st cousin that you've never talked to have more rights to your stuff if you passed away. So there's some challenges for the community there that hopefully been corrected with marriage equality and things like it just wasn't very efficient. There's a lot of taxes and fees and costs that go into estate planning that the community would have to do that would just be assumed for heterosexual couples before marriage equality came to the United States. So there's just challenges that just made it harder for the people in the LGBT community to have a secure retirement or to pass their assets to their partner. We're all going to die some day. Again, not too negative, but you know, give it enough time. One of us , some of us are going to pass away. You knkow, someone is going to be a widow or widower and there are gay widows and whatever. And you know, the challenges we faced to do proper estate planning or to pass assets between, between the spouses, it's challenging, but it's much more efficient to leave your retirement account or leave your life savings to espouse than it is to lead to like another heir or a kid or a family member or friend. It's just the government takes a much bigger chunk if it's not your stuff. So little things like that probably just hurt the community overall.

Chase Peckham:

Well, I would imagine that's just, that's history and probably going to be a large learning curve, especially for those who have lived well before gay marriage was allowed or, or was legal. And so that learning curve for that group has got to be huge because they have lived so long in a certain way , um , with no rights whatsoever. Now all of a sudden there is, so that's gotta be kind of overwhelming to all of a sudden change everything they've known for so long. And on the other end for the younger communities that are going to be coming up where this has been legal their whole lives, hopefully that becomes more mainstream for them and it's just something that they grow up with. Do you find that that is a possibility because you are right when at the very beginning of your last statement, we as a whole in the general population are terrible at saving money, getting ready for retirement. I mean that's across the gamut. So obviously organizations like ours and the reason for these podcasts and for what you do is to try to help people alleviate that. So do you think that now that the laws are in place that for generations to come, we might see this, these numbers become more in the normal or normal is not the right word, but in the more in line with the general public's numbers?

David Rae, CFP:

I think over time we're going to end up much closer to the general population numbers in many respects. I think because of certain things, there's going to be a generational divide for people that are maybe playing catch up. So I think, you know, many gay men or two , two lesbian women having children for example. They're much more likely to have them at say 50 or 40 or some cases 60 then probably the population as a whole. But I think as younger people growing up and are planning our future thinking about their future, they may make the choice to have children or start a family at a much younger age. So there are definitely challenges and advantages to having your kids out of the house before your retirement age.

Chase Peckham:

tell me about it.

David Rae, CFP:

And if you plan for them, we also probably have to spend much more money than average. You know, we don't, when you're not procreating yourself completely, if you're paying doctors and IVF or surrogates , there's a lot, a lot of additional expenses as well as even adoption that can be quite expensive. So there's things like that that will help the LGBT community over time. But for now we still have generations of , uh , very successful people that are maybe just playing catch up, getting married later in life. They're having kids later in life. They're starting their planning later in life, but to kind of answer your question. I do think over time we're going to see much more of a community this kind of blend in and it's just going to be more of an afterthought then than a big deal. I think 40 or 50 years ago, if you wanted to live an out life , you had to move to the city. You had to go to New York or San Francisco or a few of the other more stereotypical enclaves of the gay community where now I think, you know, there are definitely places where it's probably more challenging to be gay, but at the same time you have much more openness to be out and about in a small town, in a farming town, and you know any city, any job in the country, then you maybe did even five or 10 years ago. You still can be fired in many, many States or just being gay, which is still super fun. But yes, I think it's something like 26 states. So I don't have the exact number, but it's a scary number that you can just be fired for being gay. You can lose your housing for being gay. Uh, so, you know, we're making steps in the right direction, but we still have a lot of challenges to , to overcome. I would like to think that the odds of you being fired from a major corporation are probably very small, but you know, if you're working for a smaller employer, these are still things that have to be in the back of your mind and you have to be aware of.

Felipe Arevalo:

That's what I was going to ask geographically. Is there, you know, with it being , um, the geographical area where there's the discrimination shrinking and then being able to be open in more parts of the country , um, do you feel that will have a , a greater positive impact as well, where like you mentioned, as opposed to having to live in some of these very hyper specific areas and expense, kind of more expensive ones? Yeah. Like San Francisco, New York. Um, you know, that freedom opens up a whole new , um, I guess dimension to be able to live wherever you want , um, more openly. Anyways.

David Rae, CFP:

I think that's a huge advantage to be able to live wherever you want to be at . Something most people would just take for granted because just think about, you know, if you're going to New York or San Francisco or LA, the cost of living is astronomical in many of these cities. So you know, having the ability to work in a different career path that might not really be great and somebody said is something that been a challenge for the LGBT community for years is also, you know, just being able to stay near your family. I think you're still hopefully seeing less and less people being disowned or kicked out of their house for being gay. It still can happen. It can happen in a way. It can happen in New York and I'm not bagging on any part of the country specifically that, but I think stereotypically we're seeing probably more of it, but probably the smaller town you're from or the more middle of the country, you're probably more likely to see parents who are kicking their kids out of the house. At least in my experience. Uh , with the homeless youth that I've met heer in LA, quite often they're coming from far, far away. Not like every homeless person in LA magically born and raised here is homeless. So I do think being your family, being able to not have to move across the country, have more job opportunities throughout. Just being able to move wherever you might find the right job for your career is going to have advantages. One , it gives you more opportunity to move up in their career if you're able to move around and take the right job for you, rather than being like, I don't want to live outside of this square radius where LGBT folks are welcome. I also think the more you're able to network in the general population it sounds terrible to say it that way, but to just network with anyone, there's more opportunities for your career to advance which your career advancing typically involves more money and not that more money will solve your debt problems or a spending problem, but it's your health .

Katie Utterback:

Sure. Yeah.

Felipe Arevalo:

So you touched a little bit on that

Speaker 4:

Less money will definitely make those, those problems. Amplifier for sure.

Felipe Arevalo:

Right. And you touched a little bit about youth , um , and I kind of wanted to circle back on that as far as, you know, youth being , uh, disowned by their family upon, you know, coming out. Is it something where, you know, that you mentioned that's hopefully decreasing as well, the trend anyways,

David Rae, CFP:

I'd like to think that it is decreasing. I don't have specific stats to prove that it's decreasing. I also think that as there's more acceptance of gay people in general, they're more, they're more likely to find support , um, through, I've definitely met some people who were taken in by other families and their communities. So they were, you know, they were lucky enough not, not to just be on the street, but you know, even just, even if someone was like , you in college is expensive. So you know, if you're not necessarily able to pay for college all of a sudden you're , you're a step behind in life or you know, the stress of being kicked out of your house, probably going to hinder your study . So, you know, I think it is getting a lot more opportunities. I think there's a lot more support of uh , the gay and lesbian centers that I know are really doing a lot with homeless youth and housing and job training and things. You know, even in San Diego or here in LA, u h, New York and San Francisco j ust g oing and surprisingly, there's quite a few popping up i n more and more cities that you wouldn't a lways t hink o f as being kind of gay center gay center places. But there's more and more opportunities for homeless youth to get a leg up to get some j ob t raining a nd t o not just really fall i nto t he, the really the worst case scenario for someone kicked out of the house as a teenager.

Katie Utterback:

Well, so I want to actually kind of go to the other end of life. So more retirement age. Um, you briefly mentioned that very shocking , um , fact that LGBTQ persons , um , can be fired , um, for just being gay in, I have in my notes, 28 States allow an employer to fire someone for identifying as lesbian, bisexual, gay , um , 30 States will allow an employer to terminate someone for being transgender.

Chase Peckham:

Look, this is a personal finance podcast , but socially that blows my mind. I even fathom, but

David Rae, CFP:

I think what that does to your finances, if you're just worried about that or think about, you know, what your career would look like if you only work for certain places that you would hope wouldn't fire you or , or let me just give you the worst case scenario that you happen to put in all this time at a career with a company. And you maybe realize that your boss was homophobic and they don't know that you're , you're gay, you never come out after working there 20 or 30 years. I mean, what is that gonna do to your psyche? What is that gonna do to your finances and what would that do to you if you were really fired after 20 or 30 years? Or maybe she's not on it one year, but it's probably a lot worse than you really doesn't have a career . Um , at the very least, even if you're not fired, it can really hurt your,

Chase Peckham:

the stress.

David Rae, CFP:

You might be passed over for a promotion or a raise and it's just, it's just astounding that this is still a thing. But it is, unfortunately

Katie Utterback:

it is. And it related to that, there was , um , David , a point that you just made, it was that LGBTQ persons, it was gay men that have a more feminine sounding voice or appearance. And then lesbian women who have a more huskier voice or appearance are more likely to be passed over for a promotion.

Chase Peckham:

Stereotypes.

Katie Utterback:

Stereotypes, yeah. But they're more likely to be passed over for a promotion. Similarly , um, there's a pay gap. We often hear about the gender pay gap. Um, but it's reported that gamer gay men earn about 69 cents on the dollar to their straight male peers. Gay women earn about 89 cents on the dollar to their straight female peers. So going back to David's point, just going into work, I mean, your financial standing is going to be, it could be affected without any sort of protection. So let me ask, so let me ask you that, a question about that then David. So regarding spending, chase brought up the emotional impact that this can have on a person to feel like your bosses may maybe discriminating against you and you don't really have anywhere to go,

Chase Peckham:

let alone not living a life that is real. at least publicly.

Katie Utterback:

Yeah. So let me just ask you how we kind of know that emotion , our emotions can have an impact on our spending. Our , our desire to spend can increase sometimes. Uh, when we're having an emotional day. I'm one of those people. Um, so let me just ask. Retail therapy is a thing for me. So was chocolate therapy, but I just want to ask for someone who may have been living in the closet most of their life and now they have this opportunity to be authentically themselves, what does that do, I guess, to your finances in a way? It's like just the psychological impact, having to maybe go back into the closet.

David Rae, CFP:

Yeah, I mean I think a lot of us had been told we're less than or felt like we're less than because it's being in the closet or being gay or, or all the other things we've heard from society over the years. So we do sometimes make an effort or many people that you need to make an effort to show their success through spending. And that can be at various levels. I mean there's buying, you know, the midlife crisis car or how they look and buying clothes and travel and you know, a lot of things. It's still other people doing that in the population at large, but it's sometimes very, very specific and the community will see a lot of people really trying to prove that they're successful and prove that they're worthy through shopping or through spending or through, you know, how nice their houses or their cars or their clothes are, and that can really have devastating impact , especially if you are trying to keep up an image that you'd necessarily, and they can't necessarily afford and as we know for anyone, if you're spending beyond what you make, you're going to have some problems over time and then if you're already spending beyond what you make and then you lose your job or go get that promotion or don't get that raid, all of a sudden that problem even more compounded

Chase Peckham:

And those things you just talked about are universal. Yeah.

David Rae, CFP:

Yes . Well I think some of the , a lot of the challenges that the LGBT community faces, I think that other people definitely fall for as well. I think some of them are more amplified on certain parts of the population are . We just have a little added layer of risk , anyone to be fired I guess for, it's just much easier to fire an LGBT person in more than half the states. So little things like that that just adds up .

Katie Utterback:

Can you talk to about um , maybe some of the, the spending that's kind of fueled by the community itself and like when you're hanging out with your friends, how it almost kind of becomes a competition of well this is where I went on my last vacation or did you, I got, you know, into the new hottest bar or I was able to donate this much to a charity or whatever. Is there kind of this um , one up men's ship too, to try to be the best of the best in this community too ?

David Rae, CFP:

I think in certain parts of the community there absolutely is one upmanship I think, you know, you will see pressure to drive a certain type of car. You'll see pleasure to live in a certain neighborhood or certain level of how I have some clients are tired of Palm Springs and there there appear to be pressure to like continuously be remodeling your house. Um, in this particular community they were living. It just was how it seemed to work out. Like everyone there, but well my, kitchens brand new and I've got this appliance and I've got that and all this stuff that , you know , they're probably really nice. I'm sure they're gorgeous kitchen, but you know, it probably doesn't cook any better on a $1 million stove versus you know the stove you probably already have, especially if you're not a great cook. So , um , there's , I think a lot of it right now with social media, there is pressure on where you travel. So you know, there's a little bit of like, Ooh, look at me here, look at me there. And you know, you can still find great ways and travel very budget friends , had a budget friendly trips, there's a lot of amazing places or even just be stupid with it and blow your, blow your budget. I love to use miles and points and travel the world, but that I think I see friends who don't use miles and points and they spend near 10 times on travel for half the fun . So there are ways to stretch your dollars . Um, I think just there is just a little more pressure from kind of just showing your wealth and showing your success a little bit more in the community. It's just, it's hard to explain but you just kind of feel like we want to prove that we're worthy and prove that we're, which can be set in many parts of the country. But at the same time I think we just a little bit more affected by that in many parts .

Katie Utterback:

Yeah. The reason I asked that, cause I, I'm in this game with my friends all the time. Like I just had a friend, well she's from Egypt, but she just went to Egypt and the photos are gorgeous.

Chase Peckham:

So she went home,

Katie Utterback:

She went, she went home. But it's, it's funny like in our little friend group it's kind of like, okay, well she did this, he did this. When is it my turn and kind of a sense, you know, and so that's why I was just curious because when you're kind of in this tight knit group, you are kind of like family, you know, you kind of get the little pings of jealousy sometimes.

Chase Peckham:

And that's probably, again, this is a personal finance podcast, but again, that is probably just a , uh , something within you and whatever. You wonder if that's really a competition between the whole group or that's just what you see personally. And how much of that is in any community that you live in or friendship group that you live in or just maybe that's a little bit your personality too.

:

Right. And that's the point I was trying to get to is , um , how much of it I guess is my Katie personality, but then how much of is it too , like this need to feel like I belong and that I'm doing something that other, yeah. So I guess I'm just

David Rae, CFP:

some of the actually trying to keep up the way you were describing here . If I find one on vacation, I want to go on vacation to totally normal and very common. But I think probably more day to day is going to be, it's going to be something more like who your friends are and which restaurants you might go out to for dinner or where you might meet for a drink or if you guys are meeting up for a social activity, how much you're spending and the more money some of your friends might have, the more likely they are to pick a fancier restaurant. Uh , you know, and all of a sudden you're ordering a bottle of wine or a few cocktails and that bill can get quite large, quite fast. So it's not necessarily keeping up, but it's just being around people that are made of spending more than you can afford or want to afford or should afford. And I'm sure you have friends that you might think, Oh wow, their life's great and I want to keep up with them. And then we find out they're drowning in debt. Are they having zero saved for retirement or 20 other things that you're like, Oh, someone else paid for that trip. So great that they went on that trip. But you're not quite lucky enough to have parents that are paying for it or spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend paying for it and you're trying to keep up with something that's not even necessarily real or I , I've definitely seen some people that travel for work and were paid for it. Well they were working in Egypt, which is so great. There still in Egypt, but that conference room isn't as exciting as the trip you want to take to see the Pyramids I've been guessing. So you know, sometimes you have to look at the reality of what's happening.

Katie Utterback:

Right. And then that brings me to another point too, which is sometimes you know, you have to be open with your friends about your financial situation and just kind of share that going to our particular restaurant is just not in the cards for you this particular month, week or a year .

Chase Peckham:

Without question .

Katie Utterback:

So let me just ask you this David too . Do you find the LGBTQ community is more open with their finances than the general population would be or is it pretty similar? We just, it's kind of a taboo topic that we just don't really talk about.

David Rae, CFP:

I think it's going to be very similar in many respects. I think we'll probably see a little bit more ability to be flashy in the LGBT community. Um, I think kids are a great equalizer in my opinion, as someone who did not have kids. But um, it will blow , they will blow up your budgets, blow up your finances no matter what you do. So , uh , have a little bit more room to be flashy. You know, if you took a two gay man or two, two lesbian women and had exactly an income as maybe a family, a heterosexual couple of two or three kids, all of a sudden the gay couples have a lot more money to travel and go to dinner and do this stuff. Even just from the basic reason we go to dinner, we don't have to pay a babysitter, you know, so all of a sudden there's just more money to be spending. Even if we have the same income. So there's, there's definitely the pressure there, but I think we just sometimes have a little bit more sporadic freedoms to spend. But , sometimes that freedom to spend is taken advantage of. And that means people don't save or don't plan for the future. They just don't have to, I don't have to worry that, you know, little Johnny, is going to need braces or, you know, ortho next week so we can go on a trip.

Chase Peckham:

So let's kind of doing what you do for a living. Um, and being a financial planner, there's a, there's an in society in general, there's a kind of a , a stereotype that if I don't make much money, then what is the reason to find a financial planner? Um , or if I don't have two pennies to rub together, what's the point? Um, and in , in a couple of, I believe it's one of the studies that says that more than 53% were unsure where to get financial advice or want to go get financial advice. How do you overcome that or or break down the stereotype that they should be seeing and discussing their finances with a third party?

David Rae, CFP:

Yeah, I think people need to get advice and I think just reaching out and finding the right person to kinda point you in the right direction. It might be as simple as helping you set up your 401k properly. If you have one at work and making sure you're getting your employer match , it might be making sure, you know, if you do have kids or you want to have kids, you're taking the steps to make sure that your family is protected if something happens to you. There's a lot of, there are a lot of resources out there. There are advisors that work with people at all asset levels. You can save money. I have, I've worked with people over the years that are making 30 40 grand are able to say that I have time to make $1 million a year and they struggle to save. So you know, someone making 30 or 40,000 and paid money and again , especially if you're in LA, anyone could save money. I'm sure there's people listening that might make less than that, but you do what you can to find ways to stretch your dollars and you know, make money work. I know when I first graduated college I was making like 20 or 30,000 a year and I didn't say it a ton, but I was a little bit each month and I didn't really miss it. That automatic contribution to my savings account was huge and that just snowballed and I was able to save a little bit and then I think a little bit more and I think a little bit more. And now years and years and years later I'm saving a ton. So now I am a financial planner and I love to save money and make you happy, but anyone else can do the exact same thing that I've done.

Chase Peckham:

So that was born, you were born like that, is that what you're saying? You love to save, you're a saver from the get go.

David Rae, CFP:

I would say I was raised a savor the way you know , the way of my household was run . We kind of had a lump sum of money that we had for live on for our whole life. So I've always been aware of the value of a dollar. Both my mom and dad are very good about instilling, you know, what stuff costs and how much money we had and you know, what that meant for things for the future. And you know, I took that in and I started saving money and I'd like to save money and I like to make money, I like to make people money. Um, and I really liked to get a good value on stuff, but I'm not getting it at home. Just, you know, never leaving my house, not spending money , but at the same time, if I can find a way to get, you know , my flight , let's use Egypt for example for half off or if I can use miles and points and how to not have to pay anything for that trip. That trip was just as much fun, actually. Probably more fun if you don't come home with credit card debt. So there's, there's quite a few ways to be strategic and make smart choices. And the sooner you get started planning for your future, even if you're just saving a tiny bit compounding interest or getting your employer match. So letting that money grow over time just makes it so much easier.

Katie Utterback:

Oh yeah. So let me ask you too , for I guess, straight allies, how can we be of help to the LGBTQ community as they're kind of experiences experiencing some of these financial hurdles? Um, and I guess a lack of legal protections for some things that are gonna affect them. Um, pretty largely financial.

Chase Peckham:

I mean, stepping on, on top of that, what about finding financial professionals to go speak to and , and knowing they're not going to be discriminated against? I mean, is there, I don't know this, but is there a place that is openly, we're gonna we'll work with like LGBT LGBT , yes. I mean, do we have to advertise that these days?

David Rae, CFP:

Um, I do think you still need to advertise it unfortunately. I think the ability to get unbiased and on homophobic advice is greatly increased in the last five or 10 or 15 years. But discrimination still does happen. I have had people come to me after being turned away from financial advisors here in California that didn't want to meet with them once they figured out it was a gay couple. Um, so this stuff does happen. Uh, ultimately garbage in, garbage out. So you know, if you're not telling your advisor that you're married or you're in a relationship, I'm not saying you have to, you absolutely have to come out to your advisor. But at the same time, if you're planning on doing some things, that will be challenges for the gay community. Like if you didn't tell your advisor , Oh, I want to have kids someday. If they think you're straight, they just might think, okay, great, someone's going to get pregnant and have a baby. We'll plan for that. If we're talking adoption or surrogacy or egg donors, all these other permutations, you're going to be a lot more money for this conversation or the time frames of when you might have children. Like , for example, women, I think there's a biological clock in there. So you know, if we're adopting 50 year old is a much different number than if you're trying to biologically birth a child. There's just different advice that you will get. And you know, you really don't want to be going into that meeting , you know, the advisor going, Ooh , girl , you know all this.

Katie Utterback:

Yeah, right. Yeah.

David Rae, CFP:

Uh , we'll be really awkward if you're a gay guy going , uh, you know , but , uh, you know, it's very, there are a lot more resources for , um , LGBT specific advisors . A lot of advisors who do specialize in it. We're still very underrepresented within the financial planning community. There's not as many out advisors as I would like to see, but there is definitely enough to, you know, help people on the way. And there's definitely a lot of allies that are totally cool with giving advice. They won't blink an eye if you come in with your wife or your husband or whatever permutation you know, works for you. Um, so you know, look out for that advice and if someone isn't right for you, move on. And if you find someone and then you realize that they're , they are homophobic. And I would personally I'm biased, but I would say, you know, even to my straight friends, if your advisor's homophobic, they're probably a dick and they're probably going to screw you over. But that's just my personal opinion.

Chase Peckham:

No , you find out your , I think there's quite a few people that share that opinion,

David Rae, CFP:

you know, did this , like if you walked in and there , you know, you see their KKK or uniform in the corner, you probably don't want to use them as your advisor either.

Chase Peckham:

I don't think anybody wants that person.

Katie Utterback:

I mean. But that's a great point is some of these things are so subtle, but it's kind of an authentic snapshot of your real life. And if you're going to come in and ask for help with financially planning to make sure you meet all of these goals in life. I mean.

Chase Peckham:

like anything else, you're going to want somebody to help you that ha that can help you and kind of understands the shoes that you walk in, right? They can help - It helps to find somebody that you're comfortable with. And this goes for anybody, right? You're going to need to interview people. I mean, I don't just take the first plumber that comes into my house. You want to get a quote, right? You want to meet the person. Is this person going to take care of my home when he tears it apart? I mean there's so many things that you need to look at in all of our lives and that's just one extra step, right?

David Rae, CFP:

It is. And I think the same thing would go the opposite direction, for someone is super religious or in , you know , no matter what they're going to tithe to the church and all that stuff, that's great. But I may not be the best person for that. I have no problem with anyone in any religion. I've clients probably every major religion in my client base, but at the same time I'm not really going to be the one that's going to be the best for certain church related things. I just don't have the personal knowledge

Chase Peckham:

and you're not going to guide them that way because you don't, you're not experienced in it switch . If that's what they're looking for, then they need to go find that.

David Rae, CFP:

Absolutely. I just think, you know, no matter who came straight or otherwise, you want to find the right person for you. I think there's a big challenge. I think women are very underrepresented in the financial planning industry as well. So I think it's like as the certified financial planner, that's still only like 23% of CFPs are women. It's still a good amount of women, but it's definitely not 50 50. But I think there are advantages for women working with women. Uh , I've done very well. I have a ton of single women in my client base. And I think it's partially because as the gay man a gay man they couldn't find a woman to work with that I'm one step removed and I can still kind of relate to my neighbor respect and make the money on it. And then at the very least I'm not going to talk down to them the way they probably have unfortunately been talked down to by other advisors that are men .

Chase Peckham:

David, this is a , this is a personal question, you don't have to answer it if you don't want to, but you seem very well adjusted and, and very smart and obviously through the many articles that , that we have read that you have written , um, was growing up. Did you know early and did in the , and it sounds like the family dynamic that you lived in was very accepting. Is that true? Am I reading that correctly? And do you feel like that helped you in the, in the way that you went in the direction you went in your life?

David Rae, CFP:

Yeah, I mean I think my family is a really great about my when I came out, but I feel think even in the best of circumstances it's still challenging. There was definitely times growing up or you know, I knew I didn't fit in and I had to make my life choices or I felt I had to make certain life choices based on that. And I had worried about, you know , what would happen when I came out. I think there are some advantages along the way. I'm from kind of where you don't have a girlfriend or pining over girls in high school even have a lot more time to study. So my grades were really good. Take that for what it's worth. And you know, I had a lot more time to study and do my own work and some other people. So that part was great. But then you know, there's still work challenges with it. You know , I've been out for decades , I think almost 20 years that come out now. At this point I'm happily married. I am doing very well career-wise . You know, there's just a lot of positive in my life and it's grown up to this. Um, can, I do think there was definitely periods probably in my twenties where drinking was probably heavier than it would've been. Granted, there's probably lots of people in their 20s drinking heavily.

Chase Peckham:

Yes, I can say that

David Rae, CFP:

I didn't drink much as most people in college, so I made up for it a little later. Um, but you know, there , there are definitely things that are still in my psyche that drives some of my success that I've made manifested and positive things for me as far as the drive to make sure I'm taking care of myself to make sure I have a social, a financial safety net to make sure I'm self sufficient. But there are drawbacks to that some of that is driven by worry from being gay or not being insensitive and nearly some of my career choices that actually worked in my favor. Part of the financial industry that I really liked was, you know, I could have my own business and find my own clients and not have the pressure of one of those corporate jobs. And not just from a pressure standpoint of working hard. But the pressure of my boss doesn't like me. My boss doesn't like gay people, you know, I'm not getting this promotion or this opportunity because I'm gay . I felt in the financial industry one, I mean there's people in the community that needed help in the LGBT community and then two, that so much of it, I don't see numbers driven, but it's really based on, you know, I've had that happy client leave me alone, I'm doing my job. Um , versus in a corporate world you could be doing best job, be the number one employee. and still not get a promotion, let's just say, not officially since you're gay, but probably because of your sexual orientation .

Chase Peckham:

You know, there is, and I, and the reason and the reason I asked that is because the one thing that I was brought up with that my parents always brought me up with was, you know, you , you can't talk about things you don't understand or you have not grown up with. Are you casting judgment on something that you don't know anything about is wrong. And I've always grown up that way. Um, and, and being heterosexual my entire life, we don't ever know what it's like to walk in somebody's shoes unless of course we grew up with a sibling or something like that or had a best friend that had to go through that. And that's why even for somebody as well adjusted as you seem, there was still some, a lot of insecurities growing up and , and that, those insecurities could've gone many different ways. But where you always was math always something that you were interested in and you always knew that you wanted to go that direction.

David Rae, CFP:

For me personally, I've always been math has always been my thing and personal finance is always on my agenda. And then I had some really good things that went my way. Like my parents had their financial person and I always saw what they were doing and I got to see this industry. And then in college I had an amazing mentor who just kinda gave me some more insight into different parts of the financial industry so I could find where the best spot was for me. You know, did I want to go to wall street and be a trader? And you know, no, I want to do the There's different parts of the profession and I really like math and money and saving and all that good stuff. But I also liked being social and helping people and all of these things that being a national financial advisor, working with the general public was going to be the best fit for me. So I, I think I can come on a place like here and talk about my answers and hopefully the information and bring information to your audience and not be too boring. But there's also times where I actually can back it up and do what I need to be doing and help people. So it's just a great, it just seemed like the great opportunity for me career wise. Um, and it's worked out well doing this for, you know , 17 years now. And I know , I can't imagine doing anything else.

Katie Utterback:

So , David, can you , uh, are you accepting new clients and if you are, do you work with people outside of the state of California as well?

David Rae, CFP:

I am accepting new clients very specifically at this point. Um, but I do have clients across the country, so no , but you don't need to be in LA. I'm meeting a client this afternoon is flying in from Hong Kong , uh , to see me , so I have clients around the world.

Katie Utterback:

Wow. That's very impressive. Yeah. And then I guess one other question before we let you go. Is there , um, some sort of website or resource people can go to if they want to look for more specific LGBTQ financial information?

David Rae, CFP:

Yeah, I think the best place to find me is my blog, which is financialplannerLA.com and we have a lot of the stuff have the gay voice to it, but there's a specific LGBTQ section for stuff that's 100% written for the gay audience, but most of the other stuff has some references and you've got some golden girls themed financial articles and different brand kids . You'll hear that . You'll find the gayness and all of it. I'll read it if I do my job. Wow .

Katie Utterback:

I love it. Grace and Frankie is a great show and it's filmed down here.

Chase Peckham:

It's a great show. It's a great show. Um , you know, for a math guy, you're a heck of a writer too . Um, you have many articles out there.

David Rae, CFP:

I, yes, it's not easy.

Chase Peckham:

Uh , there's not too many people that can use both sides of their brains , uh, the way you do. But I'm a writer, my wife's a writer and neither of us can do math worth a Hill of beans. So , um , I wish somebody would teach me how to use that side of my brain.

David Rae, CFP:

Well, that's why I have a job. That's the , there's a lot of job security and math and financial planning. You know , I think I just want to make sure we just dispel the myth cause I think some people think financial planning or financial advisors are just there to help people that have problems and I think at the same time the more successful you are, the more busy you are, the more valuable it can be. And another thing that I really do for me is when I sit down with couples , sometimes it's just like therapy. Like one spouse is saying a and the other spouse is saying a but a different way and they're not getting rid of the other person. And I can just, here's what you're both saying , you both are saying the same exact same thing and you're fighting about it. Like you're saying the opposite. So you know, we can kind of get people on the same page or help them figure out like we're saving money, we're not going to dinner on Fridays , so we can go on that vacation. You want to take, you put it in perspective of that type of thing versus just going, no , we can't spend money on food . I get to translate or I get to be the bad guy and you're mad at me rather than here's your spouse.

Chase Peckham:

well, if you look at it like, you know, why wouldn't you hire an expert to do something that they do every single day? You know, I mentioned earlier a plumber, I'm definitely not going to go try to fix that plumbing and neither is my wife, so why wouldn't we hire somebody that that's what they do all the time and money is no different and they take the emotion out of it, right? They take a look at the whole picture and say, look, as far as what you two think, where you want to go, this is the path to go on. I mean, I do this for a living. I have financial advisor and if I didn't, I don't think we would be in as decent a shape. In fact, I know we wouldn't because there's things we forget and don't look at.

Katie Utterback:

Well, that sounds like David's also playing a part time marriage counselor too .

Chase Peckham:

I think every financial planner, I think every financial planner does it a bit . A bit of that in psychologist. Yeah.

David Rae, CFP:

Yes, I do think, I think it's a benefit for any couple that's working with a great financial planner that their marriage will be , um, more successful. And I'm no guarantees there because life happens, but it can definitely take some of the stress out of it or at least reduce the things that people fight about.

Chase Peckham:

Well , money's the number one thing for couples. I mean you're always number one reason for divorce, finances,

David Rae, CFP:

money.

Chase Peckham:

Yeah, it absolutely is . Well thank you so much for being here today. David. I hope you'll come back after so many other questions. It's so many other different roads that I would want to take that just, we don't have time for in this, in this episode, but we'd love to have you back if , uh , if you'd like to.

David Rae, CFP:

anytime. Thanks guys.

Chase Peckham:

Thank you so much. Thank you very much. And now we'll follow up with myself. Phil and Katie,

Katie Utterback:

You know what I was thinking about regarding a lot of what we talked about during our LGBTQ discussion is that so many things that David was talking about applies to the general population. Cause I could see in myself, you know, just talking about the spending and trying to belong to a community and then there are certain things that you're willing to spend more on just so you can feel a part of that. I think that happens to the general population too. Like I don't want to say that it's just LGBTQ population. Um, cause I can think of examples from my own life where I, especially in my early twenties I went to the bar way too many times. I ordered way too many drinks too many times. I know and it was all because I thought that that's what I was supposed to do. I wanted to fit in, but I couldn't afford bottle service . Like what was I doing? You know what I mean?

Chase Peckham:

Seriously, what were you doing? I tell you what we told the story about me being $26,000 in credit card debt by the time I was 26 years old. Right. I've told that story a thousand times in our, in our presentations over the years of what not to do. I swear to you , half of that was bar tabs and happy hours just because everybody would go. So I would just go and I'd leave my credit card down.

Katie Utterback:

Let me ask you, so you're kind of a financial person now.

Chase Peckham:

Sure.

Katie Utterback:

Were you back then?

Chase Peckham:

No. Okay. But I thought that I'd learned, I mean I, I thought my, I thought I was, my parents taught me, they thought we thought.

Katie Utterback:

so just even not even really being that much of a financial person. Did you feel guilty when you were closing out some of these bar tabs?

Chase Peckham:

I think I knew I couldn't afford it, but I didn't care at the time. It was just, you know what, this is what we do. and by that time when I first started with credit cards and doing all , you know, using them on a regular basis, I didn't really understand how to use them. I mean, eventually I started to figure it out. Right. When you start, if you read, if you read your, your , um, why am I blanking on the word that comes in every, your statement when it comes in, right. You read it and you go, Oh wow, okay, finance charge , let's figure out what that is. Because apparently what I'm purchasing isn't the end result here. That's not everything and I'm not paying it off. They're gaining money. So eventually you figure it out. Um , a little bit, but it just, at the time, I think where we are, your young life, like you said, fit in or just really want to have fun and you're single and you're like, this is what I want to do. And we, I don't have that filter to say, you know what, I'm going to stay in on a Thursday night because I can't afford to do that. That, that urge to go out and be with my friends and be one of the Jones' far outweighed any response, responsible act I should've had financially.

Felipe Arevalo:

Well, yeah, if you think about it, you don't want to be the one person at that age, especially the walks into the bar and they say, open or close , Oh, you can just close it out and I'm just going to have this one beer.

Chase Peckham:

I have limited my bar tab to one beer.

Felipe Arevalo:

Exactly. That's not what you were thinking. Or at least not what I was thinking in my first five minutes of happy hour, so. Right . And then we're going to do for the other hour. I mean the free peanuts. Yeah, exactly. You don't want to be the only, right. You didn't want to be the only one really nice place. Chex mix . Oh, there you go. Pub mix.

Katie Utterback:

I thought you're not supposed to eat those. Like I thought they were supposed to be germ infested like nobody.

Chase Peckham:

Okay, well honestly that's.

Felipe Arevalo:

after a few beers.

Chase Peckham:

and by the way, it's a little late to let me know that.

Katie Utterback:

good thing there was the alcohol to burn off some of those germs .

Chase Peckham:

Lucky for me. Now I only go where there's really nice white queso. It's hot so there's probably not a lot of germs in there, you know?

Katie Utterback:

That's true. It's probably ordered specific to you . It's not just sitting there.

Chase Peckham:

I'm a high-class person now.

Katie Utterback:

But I mean, I've just noticed, even in my own life, just the evolution of my priorities. And so when I was in my early twenties like you guys were saying, I didn't want to be the person who had just one drink at the bar. But then also, even though I felt guilty spending this much at the bar, I , I still felt like I had to go because if I didn't go, then what am I doing?

Chase Peckham:

You right. And I think , I think the kids these days call it FOMO, right? And we all might have that, that fear of missing out on whatever it is, even though we may not even know what that is, it's just the idea. And we may not even know that we're scared of missing out on anything. It's just that we're like, I am 25 years old, I'm 24 whatever it is, and I'm sitting in on a Thursday night and I'm sure everybody else's out. So I must go out

Felipe Arevalo:

now you have social media reminding you that you should be out there too. I didn't even know we didn't have that right now you've got, you know, you're seeing people Snapchats their stories. I'm Instagram and I'll pull other podcasts. People are [inaudible] and then now there's a increase , you know, wow, everyone's having so much fun. I saw all these clips of them doing this or that and I'm the only one at home. You know, you don't see the clips of their credit card statements.

Chase Peckham:

I think what has struck me the most with talking with David is that all of these communities, wherever you're from, whether it be , um , different parts of the country, different countries in general , um, if you come from specific different ethnic backgrounds or , um, they all have their own difficulties, right? Individually, we all have our own crap. We all have our own lives and different things that make our life difficult, including obviously the LGBTQ community.

Katie Utterback:

Well, yeah, there's like the youth homelessness with your parents are not okay with you being a part of that community and then you're right , like it trickles all the way in.

Chase Peckham:

But there are a lot of different people in those societies are homeless youth, homeless for different reasons. Maybe it's , they have parents that are drug addicts and they've just kinda been, you know, they fall apart and they're out. So all of us, these, these, these things that they do financially is not far off from what the general population goes through. They just have a different set of unique circumstances that gets them to that point. And looking at the different things that , that David has written and other articles and other things that I have researched through this whole thing. It talks about, you know, what couples should talk about is for instance, if now that marriage has come into play and whether looking at whether they should get married or not get married, right. What are the benefits of getting married? What aren't, not a whole lot different than a typical straight couples go through these days that, you know, for instance, couples that have been together for a long time, and I'm just going to throw Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell out there because they're probably , they're famous and probably the most notorious couple for being together for.

Katie Utterback:

a common law.

Chase Peckham:

decades, but never being married. Right, right. And , and why is that? That's their own reasons. They don't, who knows? Yeah . But for instance, what couples should talk about, right? We talk about this all the time with people thinking about marriage, talk about taxes, how are you going to handle that? How are your deductions going to be different? Discuss different benefits that you might do health insurance together. Um, determine financial aid needs that you might need with kids going to school or having children in tax write offs. Um, all those different types of things that a normal couple would go through. Now the LGBTQ community can legally look at these different things. And yet as he mentioned in the interview, they're still adapting to this cause it's so new.

Felipe Arevalo:

It's incredibly new . And you know, there States where it's still not even something that they could do. Um, if you think about it, California , uh, was the second state that legalized same sex marriage that started in June of 2008 and then there was the appeals and the legal process and that stopped, you know, from 2008 to 2013 while people were figuring out the legal process of prop eight. And that was 2004. The prop eight , uh, was on the California ballot. I remember, I remember that was, that was my first election, I was 18 um, and that was like the big uh , portion of it or you know, the one that kind of stood out amongst the other props. Yeah . Other than of course the presidential stuff.

Chase Peckham:

You had a very important vote for your first one.

Felipe Arevalo:

Yeah. And , and I remember signs all over for and against and the commercials and all that, but that, that's fairly recent.

Chase Peckham:

I'm Republican and I voted for it just so everybody knows.

Felipe Arevalo:

But the thing is, it's so like rececnt, I was 18 and , and I'm not that old. Um , some would argue, but you know, it's just, it, it's a learning curve and it, the election took place in Oh four, but then it didn't really, after the appeals and appeals and appeals and appeals, it wasn't until June of 2013 where same sex marriage was legal again in California. And that wasn't that long ago. Great scheme of things.

Katie Utterback:

Well and to that point, Philippe too , David mentioned that because there's not like a federal law protecting LGBTQ people. There's these like coastal towns that people kind of flock to. So I found some information. Manhattan and San Francisco are kind of known as like LGBTQ friendly hubs. Um, respectively. The cost of living there is 195% and 118% above national average. By comparison, West Virginia and Arkansas. Those States have , um, the cost of living is 17% below the national average and 16% below the national average respectively. But they are part of States that do not have hate crime laws that protect LGBTQ people. So it's kinda one of those -

Chase Peckham:

Wait they don't have hate laws?

Katie Utterback:

They, they don't have any sort of hate crime protection laws.

Chase Peckham:

For anyone?

Katie Utterback:

LGBTQ specific hate crime laws.

Chase Peckham:

don't, doesn't every state man am my ignorant , doesn't every state community have a law against hate crime period?

Katie Utterback:

No. And like , uh, David mentioned during the show there are States where you can just be fired for being LGBTQ. Almost half of this, actually more than half of the States, you can be fired for that reason.

Chase Peckham:

It blows my mind. I just don't understand this.

Katie Utterback:

I just cant imagine the financial.

Chase Peckham:

If someone is good at their job. They're good at their job for gosh sakes.

Katie Utterback:

Right. I just can't imagine that financial insecurity that would be constantly hanging over my head. Just being in a a right to work state. I mean you can just be terminated for really almost no reason. So there are people in the general population who live with this too, but not, it's usually more of like you did something and it may not have been like totally inappropriate, but it was enough for your employer. This seems more like being fired for being an LGBTQ person. It seems more of like a personal thing than just like a right to work state.

Felipe Arevalo:

Yeah like someone's boss would see them at a park or something and then yeah, I also go to work the next day and Oh, by the way, by , yeah, it just seems like it would be so extra stressful.

Katie Utterback:

I mean, even on this show, we talk about our personal lives and we use examples from our personal lives. I can't imagine having to hide the fact that I had a wife or that like if we were going through something, like if we wanted to adopt a child together, like I can't imagine having to hide that. Especially since Felipe, I, we sit next to each other. So even when we're not on the show, we're talking about things going on in our lives.

Chase Peckham:

We should seriously just put a microphone between you two . It would be very interesting.

Felipe Arevalo:

People come over sometimes. I'm like, are you talking to yourself? No, I'm talking to Katie. Yeah. But yeah ,

Chase Peckham:

personal finance as far as maintaining a budget , um , trying to navigate finances every single day in general is difficult for most of us. And as we were talking at the beginning of this thing, even, you know, us, we're straight and , and I don't think straight or gay, we all have our , our insecurities. We're all growing up at all. You know, now you know me as a white male, I probably in fact know that even though I had my own securities, I w I didn't have it as difficult as some other races or um, sexuality , uh, might have sexual orientations, right? That are discriminated against. I personally don't know what it's like to be discriminated against and I can't imagine what it's like. So I can't put myself in those shoes, but I do know that when you do have those stresses and you do have those social things that you're trying to navigate through, that navigating your finances is not something that's going to be the top of your book. It's just not, and you're gonna to try to live the life that makes you feel the most comfortable because inherently us as humans beings, our whole inner core wants to be happy. Yeah. This didn't do anything to get that, even if it's fleeting.

Katie Utterback:

Yeah. This is why this was the first episode where it really clicked in my mind why it's called personal finance. Because even though we have talked about it before where we have certain preferences or things that we may want. Like for me, like we have HBO, we have Disney plus we have a lot of these streaming services because that's what we usually do for entertainment is we'll watch a movie. Um, so that's in our budget. Whereas other people, that may be the first thing that they cut because that's their priority.

Chase Peckham:

They don't use it like you do.

Katie Utterback:

Right. But this, I could see this was different in terms of being personal finance because this for me was a reason of why you should be honest with whoever's helping you with your money. And you know, like I was saying like if I was in a same sex relationship, if I still wanted to have children, like I don't have to necessarily go an IVF or adoption route because AJ and I made biologically be able to have kids. But I mean just that right there. Like, if I knew that that was going to be something that's a conversation I'd want to have immediately with a wealth manager or a financial advisor, but because that's not necessarily something that's going to impact me, I don't have to bring that up. So I can see just being honest about these are the things going on in my life. I mean, that's gonna have a huge impact on your finances and finding somebody who understands the intricacies of what it means to be a part of a different community is also going to be essential.

Chase Peckham:

Yes. I don't think you could have said it better than what you just did flat out, you know, for people that I was very , um , I didn't know how I was gonna feel when we first were interviewing David and not because of David. It was, I am not privy to, yeah , I'm going to just stop right there. I think in my life where I am now, I'm , I am so sensitive to the fact of something that my father used to tell me when I was in my mom when I was super young and that was don't disbelieve in anything you don't know anything about. Don't judge others because you don't walk in their shoes and you don't know what is going on behind their closed doors. Don't look at somebody and cast like an initial, Oh I know who this person is just by their , by their appearance, don't the old, don't judge a book by its cover. And it as through the years with all the different people in all the different communities that our organization has worked with and all the different people I've spoken in front of, I think I am more sensitive today and a lot of people as they get older, they get a little bit harder and a little bit more stuck in their ways. And I feel like I'm going the opposite direction in that there is so much I don't know. And there's so much to learn and understand about different communities and the struggles that they go through. And in the world of personal finance where Philippe and I work in all the time and you write about a lot, there is just no one way to teach something, especially when it comes to personal finance. Because as you mentioned before, the word personal really fits and you to get to know somebody, to really understand what makes them tick, what really understands what their motivations are, where they want to go and what they want to do. It's never more important to find a personal financial professional that you are comfortable with that you can sit down with and say, this is what I want or what we want. And I think somebody like David for that community or someone like him, there is no more important move you can make for your financial future than sit down with somebody like that. And it may take some time to interview. It may take some time where you're , I'm going to interview somebody that you just despise and as a complete jerk but event. But that could be anyone. You know, if you're, if you're not in that community, you're still gonna want to interview somebody because you may just have a personality conflict. You may have a look at what, how things are, you know, you may have grown up in a completely different place than you did and you have different ideas than that person does. You're not going to click Oh yeah. So you need to find that person.

Katie Utterback:

Yeah. Well, thinking about retirement, we didn't go too much into this with David, but um, he briefly mentioned it, which is that there are some retirement communities that do not allow LGBTQ persons, which it's actually a majority of them. So there's a lot of people that have to make a decision of going back into the closet in order to get into one of these communities, or they just have to make sure that they have enough money that they can stay at home or we just need to build more LGBT.

Chase Peckham:

Well uh, forgive me for being, you know what, don't forgive me. Why wouldn't somebody go, just start building a bunch of LGBTQ retirement communities because I think you might have a hugely op , a profitable business. And , and started founding these,

Katie Utterback:

well, I was thinking about myself too. I am not a part of the LGBTQ community, but I'm an ally and I have several friends who are part of this community. I can't really imagine myself being like 80 and hanging out with a bunch of people that are not friendly with people that I consider my nearest dearest friends. You know, like I don't want to go there either.

Chase Peckham:

True. Oh absolutely. And by the way, I guess it's different than what we're talking about. Are we talking retirement communities or are we talking about,

Katie Utterback:

I'm talking.

Chase Peckham:

hospice, we're talking about?

Katie Utterback:

we're talking about all of the above. Cause right now , um , seven and 10 LGBTQ Americans say they're behind on saving for retirement. And we know that a lot of gay men in particular aged 60 to 80, it's because of the AIDS epidemic. They were not saving money because they thought they were going to die.

Chase Peckham:

Right. I think that was brought up a few times.

Katie Utterback:

Yeah, I think cause it's so shocking to me, even though I learned that like more than a year ago, it's still.

Chase Peckham:

You guys don't really remember that do you.

Katie Utterback:

You know, when I, when I was growing up, my dad was a federal agent and his partner was a lesbian and I grew up in Minnesota and a lot of the people that , um , his female lesbian partner hung out with were on the Minnesota Lynx women's basketball team. So I grew up hanging around a lot of lesbian women. Um, and then I w I'm a dancer, so I hang, have a lot of gay men who are friends and I perform with. And so it's, I've just kind of been in that community and I actually feel I'm Felipe and I were talking about this when I was in my early twenties I sometimes felt safer going to the gay bar than I did go into the regular bar.

Chase Peckham:

I've heard that from women. Yeah, a lot.

Felipe Arevalo:

Well, it's, it's interesting, I hadn't been to a gay bar until somewhere in my thirties but there are people in my life now who are part of that community. And, and if they're going to invite you out to their birthday, if they're going to invite you out to something and you're going with their friends, you go to where they're going. And it's a different , uh , it's a , I've been to a lot of bars, regular bars from the dive bars with one pool table in the corner, to bars where I paid too much because I thought it was cool to sit somewhere where some presidents used to drink to drink beer. Um, but you know, they're, they're , they're very friendly and they have the best food. The ones I've been to, they have really good bar food. And some of the bars I've been to with with my buddies, it's like, Oh, don't get the food here.

Chase Peckham:

Was it Chex mix .

Felipe Arevalo:

No, it wasn't Chex mix it was some decent food. Um, so it's like, it's a different atmosphere at first being in my thirties for going in there for the first time, you know, you don't know what to expect and you're like, Oh, it's just the bar where people were having fun and better food.

Chase Peckham:

It's like anything that you don't know, right? Your people are uncomfortable with unfamiliarity. They're uncomfortable with change. That's just human nature. If you're not, if you don't know what to expect, if you don't know your surroundings, think about the first time you went to college. Everybody goes to, a lot of people go to college. How many of them are nervous as heck? Because why ? Uncertainty?

Katie Utterback:

Oh yeah. Even starting a new job.

Chase Peckham:

Yes. Yeah . Yeah . It's human nature. I don't think we could ever come to, and I think we've got to do , there's just so much more as we , as we mentioned David at the end, there's so many different ways we can go down this, this topic. Uh, and I don't think we would ever be able to completely cover all of it. I , I would love to have him back. Uh, I'd love to have other guests to talk about this very thing. Cause I think it's incredibly important as it evolves.

Katie Utterback:

Yeah. I mean we started off with this big overall topic, maybe just to bring awareness or kind of help people understand that it's there. And hopefully later on later seasons of the show, we can dive deeper in on a bunch of topics too.

Chase Peckham:

100 % agree with that. Until next time.