Talk Wealth to Me

#055 The Black Tax with Shawn Rochester

September 18, 2020 Felipe Arevalo, Chase Peckham, Shawn Rochester Season 3 Episode 4
Talk Wealth to Me
#055 The Black Tax with Shawn Rochester
Show Notes Transcript

Shawn D. Rochester is the CEO of Good Steward LLC (GSL) and the founder of PHD Enterprises, and the IDEA Institute. Shawn grew up between the New York area (Brooklyn and Queens) and Barbados. He then attended the University of Rochester and ultimately with a degree in chemical engineering and a Master’s degree in Business Administration from The University of Chicago Booth School of Business with a focus in Accounting, Finance and Entrepreneurship. He is the acclaimed author of The Black Tax (which is the financial cost of conscious and unconscious anti-black discrimination), creates a massive financial burden on Black American households that dramatically reduces their ability to leave a substantial legacy for future generations. Please enjoy this great discussion with Mr. Shawn Rochester.

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Intro:

[inaudible] Welcome to Talk Wealth, to me, a safe space podcast, where we chat about anything and everything related to personal finance.

Felipe Arevalo:

The information contained in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It does not constitute as accounting, legal tax or other professional advice.

Chase Peckham:

Hello, and welcome to another edition of talk wealth. To me , today's guest Sean Rochester is the CEO of Goodwill steward , LLC, and founder of PHD enterprises, as well as the idea Institute. And if that weren't enough, he is also the author of the critically acclaimed book, The Black Tax: The Cost of Being Black in America. We cover this book in detail.

Felipe Arevalo:

Yeah, I think it's definitely given us a lot to think about. And, and just to kinda , even after having a little bit today , adjust it, it's, it's definitely an eyeopening conversation.

Shawn Rochester:

Thank you guys for having me on your platform I appreciate it. Looking forward to the conversation , um, in terms of background and stuff, I'll try to make , um , a long story short, although I'm rarely successful at doing that.

Chase Peckham:

Neither are we. So that's okay .

Shawn Rochester:

So , um, you know, I'm originally from, from Barbados, right. And I grew up between like Barbados in New York city. Um, so I'm , I'm both a product of the public school system in New York city and also the education system in Barbados, which is based off the British system. And it's just very, very different. Right. And , uh , you know , far more intense , um, just in , in general, like , you know, I kinda came up here when I was around five or so , um, lived in , in Brooklyn for a little bit. And then Queens , uh, finished up elementary school. Then I went back to Barbados, one of my summers that was spend there and I just , uh , asked my mom if I could stay, because even when you're young things can get hot pretty quick, right. If you know what I mean , um , in , in the city and you didn't really have that, any of that kind of energy in Barbados , uh, that was a huge blessing , uh , because , uh, I was able to get into an excellent school down there , uh , through no effort of my own. I would never, would've been able to test into the school. Um, but you know, it was there for five years and I just gave me the foundation and from an educational standpoint. Right. Um , and from just , uh , your confidence in yourself and all those kinds of things. Things that are often missing, like the presence of, you know , uh, you know, black teachers, right. Who can pour into you at all levels and have great , uh, who are extraordinary and have great expectations, you know, that, that was a very normal thing. Um, and you know, you, you didn't have to choose if you were going to be cool or athletic or smart for the troublemaker, you could , you could be all of it. Right. And then you had really smart people who , who did all kinds of stuff. It was a different kind of energy, but it was, but it was a , a great place to be, right. The expectation was high. Um , and if you didn't do well, it's cause you didn't work hard enough, right. Not that you couldn't do it. And when you overtime , you rise to people's expectations, you develop confidence right in yourself and you prove it out. And I came back here, you know , finished up high school in New York city. Um, did really well, went off to university of Rochester and got my undergrad in chemical engineering there. Um, and then I, you know, left there worked as an engineer. Right. Um, and as like a production manager and a bunch of stuff, you know, like I was a young guy and I had like 120 people working for me, you know? Um, and you know, that was a really great training ground. I worked in a paper industry, which is hugely capital intensive, not sexy. Right. Um, and then I went off to business school to shore up like my skillset and just, you know, accounting and finance and the language of business , uh, thoroughly enjoyed that, that Chicago Booth , um , school of business, university of Chicago, you know, did a small stint , um, on, on wall street and then worked for IBM , um, in their mergers acquisitions, corporate treasury, corporate finance, you know, sales operations , uh, for a number of years , uh, went off to do M and a for another company where I headed up their ITA communications , um , group in terms of, you know, business development and strategy and stuff like that. I traveled all over the world. So I got to see a lot of things. Right? Um, and working a lot of really cool projects go to a lot of different countries. Um, always was very engaged. Um, you know, in my community, my wife and I were part of an organization that during our tenure gave , uh, over $2 million dollars to black high school students who were going off to university , um, and, and other things, and, you know, as you, as I was going through all that , um, you know how every six months, eight months you'll see a news report about a study that came out where there's discrimination in some area, right. Whether it's housing or something else. And I like, you guys would read those reports, but they often seem like taxes to me. Right. Um, and I, you know, I would read them and it always seemed like a tax, but a very nefarious tax, the kind that doesn't benefit you. Right. And, and I thought to myself, at some point, I'm going to come back and take a look at that. It kind of just kinda maybe aggregated, you know, and I went on that , you know, kind of , so that planted a seed, right. That at some point I would take a look at that. Right. Um, but when I decided to, to leave corporate America, because I was traveling like 80% of the time, I had like a young family and I was thinking about what I was going to do to have impact, you know, to do good and to do well. You know, my focus was initially, you know, how do I attack the wealth gap through helping people manage their resources better? So personal financial management, right. So I started off with talks and workshops and classes. And in terms of, you know, how to help people manage their resources through something, I call SOL, which is stewardship, ownership, and legacy. And then I figured once I help people truly put themselves in a great financial position. So your cashflow is stronger. You know, you , you have a plan to drive down your debt and a methodology to keep it low or to stay out of it altogether. And then you are maximizing your projected assets at retirement. You know , I wanted people to do business with black enterprise, right. Because , um, you know, I said, once you're balanced, your situation is strong. Now it'd be great if you did business, if you could, with black enterprise, cause that would create jobs, right. That creates demand for products and services. People have to go hire , right. And , uh , it'll attract capital, right? Because you know, incremental demand, if it's profitable, attracts you, know capital. And you know, we're missing all these jobs and capital in the black community. So less direct our resources in that way. Now you can tell people to do that. And I , I know you don't just tell people what to do because the data says, you know, people spend very little on black enterprise, right. Despite the rhetoric. So, and often people think of it as a tax or a charity, like I'll help you out. You know what I mean? Or you feel like you're taking a hit because you're worried the quality is going to be low or the ambiance , a whole host of reasons people have, which sounds like a cost. Right. So I said, listen, let me show you what the cost is now. Right? Um , and I start to go down that path of looking at the financial cost of discrimination. Right. And then quantifying it for folks. Um , and I was really looking at that in the current context, like in the present and areas that are critical for accumulation. So let's look at it and automotive and housing, the insurance and finance that underpin those things, the job search high-end careers, let's kind of go through all that. Then I was just like, I'll also do a quick look back. That was my intention, right at the past, kind of quantify some of the practices and programs and policies that were in place that we may have heard of right. To pro provide the strongest case that I thought was possible for commercializing black enterprise. So , um, and that really led to , um, all the research, right. That I went, I went down this path on , um , and that opened my eyes, you know, tremendously. Um, and , and it led ultimately to , uh, to this book , uh, which is really the, the first that I can see, that's really taking this perspective when it comes to , uh, discrimination against black people.

Chase Peckham:

It really is , and, you know, I've, I've followed you from afar , uh, because this book, obviously, especially today , um, which stands out so heavily with all of us amongst COVID and black lives matter and what is going on in our communities across our country , uh, give us an idea of the research that went into the book and what exactly is the Black Tax.

Shawn Rochester:

Yeah. So the black tax is the financial cost of discrimination against black people. That's driven by conscious and unconscious bias either from individuals or institutions or, you know , other, other organs organizations. So is how does , um , anti-black bias manifest itself in a way where it has a financial impact, right. A cashflow will impact. So in the book, I take a look, you know, as , as I said, is, is how does that manifest itself in markets that are critical to wealth accumulation for black people? So housing automotive, insurance, finance, job, search capital raise, but business, you know, all those things. And then try to answer the question, like how did we get here in the first place? Right. And , and I define what here is from my perspective, because everybody has a different version of what here is for them.

Chase Peckham:

Right.

Shawn Rochester:

But I like to look at things from an economic perspective. And the here is having about 2% of U.S. Wealth after having been here for about 400 years. Right? So like, how is that possible? Either the individual or the group is consistently and colossally, inept and you have large number of people who, who believe that, or there is something else going on in your environment, right. That is causing that. It's simply not possible for that to last, for that period of time. The probability of that is , is astronomical. You have to have an outside factor, right. That is constantly weighing in to lead to that, to be the outcome. So then I started to look at what what's happening in the environment. And instead of just talking about things from a qualitative perspective, because, because if I'm speak about it from a qualitative perspective, we can just agree to disagree. I think it was a big deal. You don't think it was a big deal. You know what I mean?

Chase Peckham:

Yes.

Shawn Rochester:

I think it was a long time ago. You don't think it was that long time ago. We could agree to disagree when you start to quantify things based on research from the finest universities in the country. Now it's different right now, we start to understand what the numerical size of something actually means. Right. And it has a powerful effect on people because they generally had no idea.

Felipe Arevalo:

It's kind of like that. Uh, if you can put things into numbers, it's hard to say that the numbers, the numbers going to lie to you.

Shawn Rochester:

Right.

Chase Peckham:

For most of us, it was a chapter in a history book in at some point. And then we went on to the next thing. Right. So it wasn't in depth. So most of us, it was a period of time and that's the way we looked at it. And we went on a lot of us, weren't taught exactly what went on.

Shawn Rochester:

Yeah. So, and that's part of what I wanted to do to say, okay, well, what are some of the estimations that researchers have made about the value extracted? Cause you got to set the scope, right? It's a bunch of things you will never be able to value when it comes to that period, because it was a horrific period. There's a reason they don't go into detail on it. Right? You , you've never been able to value what it is to be a man and be able to, unable to , to protect any one you love, not, not your , your mom, your wife, you son none of that, like no Liberty whatsoever. Right. And you it's , it's hard to value what that would mean, but some of the things you can value is a labor extracted from people over that period of time. And they took meticulous records on that. Right. It was, it was known as a push system, which is, they measured how much cotton that you were picking on it on a , on a daily basis. And the level of torture that you received was proportional to the deficit in that, right? So you manufactured increased productivity. And when you start looking at, you know , what was the size of that? You know, some , um , researchers put as high as 24 trillion, others put it as high as 97 trillion, right. Which he assumed the truth is in the middle. It's probably about $50 trillion. That's over a quarter, but millennia , right. Millions and millions of people. Um, and then if you just look at, if you want a statement about the value or the impact of these folks, Jeff, you go to 1860, we noticed about 4 million people held in bondage. We know that the most liquid asset in the country, you can price those people. They are traded on open markets, right? So when you, when you think about what their value was at that time, you put in today's equivalent, the estimates are it's. Um, and from a wealth perspective, it's between 16 and 20% of U.S. Wealth, right? From a income perspective. Cause it's different ways you can value it is between one and two years of national income or GDP. Right? So from a wealth perspective, you know, when I was doing all the work, U.S. Wealth was about 85 trillion. So you're talking about between 14 and $17 trillion, right? 15.5. If you take an average, if you look at it from an income perspective, national income pre COVID was 19 trillion a year, right? So that's 19, the 38 trillion take an average of that year of 28.5, two independent ways of doing it. You take an average. So those two you're at $22 trillion, mind you, you can, you can keep going, right? You , you can go back to, you know , the 1810s where you have , uh , Thomas Jefferson and James Madison , uh , calculate in the right of those folks and what they say, it's , uh , it's about one year of GDP, right? Which is about $19 trillion.

Chase Peckham:

Extraordinary

Shawn Rochester:

Or you would have to sell about a third of all public lands, right? Because the conversation was always, how would you compensate the slave holders that they value these folks? They, they, they were not unaware of it. Right? You know, you, you have a 61% of us. Exports is what those 4 million people are, are , um, that's raw cotton, pure raw cotton. And then when you think of the entire global market world cotton, which was the first global market, the U.S. Dominates 80% of it. It's like oil today. And they dominate 80%. You just can't beat free labor. Right? So the value of these folks is , is extraordinary. When you do the math and different permutations, you're at about $22 trillion. Now you go to school, you learn it. That is the present value of your future earning ability discounted back to today. That's what that is and means, right? That's what they were slated to be producing or expect to be producing over time . Back to that day, put in today's equivalent, right? It's a gargantuan number. So when you have numbers like that, that are backed by research is it's not about what I think about it and what somebody else thinks about it. And if you say it wasn't a big deal, but how do you juxtapose not a big deal with $22 trillion, right. Or any trillion dollars. Right. So it starts to put some real context behind the conversation. You know what I mean? So that people can understand like, wow, this is a lot bigger. And this was a bigger part of the country than , than I ever knew. Or that was made plain to me, whether it's in K through 12 or in, you know , university or through my other institutions, right. Houses of worship or anything else, like I never got this information and then it starts to help shift the paradigm.

Chase Peckham:

So let's go forward, like to today and kind of get the idea, get the idea of how, what are your recommendations that you discuss in the book , uh , to help eventually eliminate that tax and then create businesses that are missing in that, in the black community and narrowing that gap.

Shawn Rochester:

Yeah. If I, if I may, right before I answer that question and I absolutely will , um, I liked that you said what's kind of happening today because one of the things that , that I do in the book as I started talking about what are the current levels of anti-black bias.

Chase Peckham:

Right.

Shawn Rochester:

Right. And I also go on to explain, cause remember I said it , black tax is being driven by conscious and unconscious bias. Right. Like some people know what they're doing. Some people are not aware of it. Right. But yet the impact is still happening. So I kind of talk about how, how the, you know , um, researchers and, and , um, um, psychiatrists like psychologists kind of come up with clever ways to determine an unconscious bias. Right. You'd be like, well, how would you tease that out? But then they also do lots of research on what are those levels. Right. So, you know, they did some research back in 2012 where they're looking at the American electorate. And I found that the levels of , um, you know, conscious bias, which is people know exactly what they're doing was about 51%. So think about that. That's every other American.

Chase Peckham:

That's extraordinary.

Shawn Rochester:

Right.

Felipe Arevalo:

It's a huge number. Yeah.

Shawn Rochester:

Yeah. And this is like Chicago associated press, Michigan, Stanford, you know, you know what I mean? Like these are names right involved in this. Um, and then they, in that same study, they looked at what's the unconscious right . Or implicit bias. And those levels were about 56%. So almost six and 10 that's just from that study. If you look at the work that Harvard has done and they have this thing called the , uh, online , um, IAT, Implicit Association Tests, really clever way of how you can determine someone's subconscious, right. Or implicit bias, millions of people have, have taken this. Right. They started with a focus on race. They've expanded it. So some other things, but the vast majority, right. Is on bias. What they do is they call it automatic white preference, which is a wonderful way of, of saying , uh , you know, anti-black bias. Technically what they're measuring is how quickly can you associate positive or negative things with black or white images. Right. So from their work, you're talking between 70, 70, 70 to 75%, right. Of folks have an automatic white preference. And they say that that can lead to discriminatory behavior and this empirical that you can see it in, in the data. Right. Yeah. Right. That's extraordinarily high levels. And by the way, think about who's taking the test. Right. It's unlikely to people who've taken the test. Think that they're biased .

Felipe Arevalo:

Correct.

:

For sure.

Shawn Rochester:

Right. They're probably not sure. Right. Or probably think they're there that they're not,

Felipe Arevalo:

Or taking a part of a college course.

Shawn Rochester:

Right.

Felipe Arevalo:

Because I remember taking it, I believe that same exact one when I was at San Diego State for a , uh, it was part of a, I believe a Chicano Chicana studies course. Um, and it was, I don't obviously remember it was a long time ago results or how the data was compiled, but I do remember taking a Harvard and it was like images of people in an images of people smiling and

Shawn Rochester:

Yup . Yeah. Yup . It's , it's basically much harder to associate positive images with black people with, you can do it much more rapidly with, with white people. Right. Um, but it's very, very rapid where people can associate negative images of black people and you can take the test a bazillion times. You're not going to be able to like, you know, goose the tests or anything. Right. So , uh , these levels, the point is these levels are quite high. So then the issue becomes how do they now manifest themselves in the marketplace? Cause I'm interested on the economics of things, but, but also on your , the everyday course of a day, right. In discriminatory behavior. And that's where you start to see things that are emanating in housing. Right. So if you think about housing, it starts off innocuous, right. So, you know, on average, it's going to take you longer to find a home if you're black , right. You're going to be shown about , uh , you're gonna be told about 20% less homes you to be shown about 20% less homes, right? So your fear of homes that you're going to get introduced on average, they're going to be much lower. Right? The second thing is they they've done research that says that , uh, when you apply for , um, loans for credit to, to buy the home, on average, you get treated as if your credit 71 points lower.

Chase Peckham:

Even if the numbers say otherwise.

Shawn Rochester:

Right? So because the issue is what triggers the bias and what triggers the bias or associations with , with blackness. So it can be your name, right. It can be , uh , your voice, right. And how you sound. It can obviously be , uh , visible, right? Like, you know, melanin content. Um, and there's lots of really interesting research that was done that shows how profoundly the interpretation of things changes. The minute somebody thinks that it's from a black person versus a white person. And , um, and then, you know, you're, you're much more likely given the same credit profile to be denied of course. Right. Um , and to be, to receive a much higher interest rates. So interest rates are like 150 basis, 0.1 0.5% higher, which is , which is a huge, huge,

Chase Peckham:

Huge number.

Shawn Rochester:

Right. And then also to receive higher fees. Now on top of this, you have the issue of, for communities where you have , uh , you know, a higher concentration of black people. The first , uh , is that you , you start to see a reduction in equity appreciation to the equity as a portion of the home that you own, the difference between what the house is worth and any debt that you might have on it. Right? So as the number of black people in the community starts to get into that six to 10%, right. Uh, first thing is you start to see white flight and as you have greater concentration of black people within the community, you'll see less appreciation. Right. And in many cases, 18% less for appreciation. So think about that on the biggest asset that you have on your portfolio. Right. Um, so, and now you also have the issue, which, which sounds fantastic, given all the messaging that you hear, which is black homeowners generally pay more in taxes, right. Per assessment than their white peers. So you, so you're , you're paying higher taxes, right. Uh , per home, on top of it now, how does this all play out? Now, if you were in a position to have to experience this, you know, the first couple of things are, are more , uh, you know, annoying and inefficient uses of your time. Right. If you're seeing less shown less, it's harder to price that. Right. But , um, if you are receiving higher fees, when they did studies in the greater Chicago areas and black people receiving like, you know, 3000 plus in higher fees over the life were alone , that could be $13,000 .

Chase Peckham:

So is that right? Let me stop you right there. Does that, are we talking about, if you were to the , the cost of the home was just, Just say apples for apples, that there Being charged $3,000 or so more.

Shawn Rochester:

Yes. This is, this is like , um, where they adjust for income, credit profiles are the same. Right. What's different in these studies is , is racialized, right? So , so they identify racialize , uh , impacts.

Chase Peckham:

Same bank.

Shawn Rochester:

Same, same, same bank.

Chase Peckham:

Holy.

Felipe Arevalo:

Is it different communities? And as sometimes Chicago, for example, I guess, I don't know in communities, different neighborhoods , um, like neighborhood based where, because this neighborhood is predominantly , uh, one race and then the other neighborhood is predominantly another race. Is it kinda like that? Where if you were to find yourself in a different neighborhood that perhaps you're the only one in that neighborhood, you can kind of get grouped in with them as well.

Shawn Rochester:

No, it it's, it's, it's, it's different because , um, it depends on how you're interfacing with , um, whoever the intermediary is. Right. So is there an opportunity for any bias that's present to be triggered? Right. So y our, your neighborhood can definitely trigger that to be known as a place where XYZ people live. Right. So they're going to be some associations with that. U m, your, your name o n the application may trigger that, right? U m, your, u h, y ou k now, picture, certainly if y ou a re in front of a person having a conversation, right. Can trigger that you guys probably have read about, u h, I think it was, it was down South. I'm not sure if it was Atlanta, North Carolina, you have this kind of black and white couple and they were getting assessment done on their home. Right. This is.

Chase Peckham:

Right I did hear that.

Shawn Rochester:

National news. Right. And, and in one case, it's , it's clear that a black person that lived there. Right. So the value's lower in terms of the assessment. And then another case they strip out all knowledge or visualizations that a person's black. And then the husband who I believe is white is the one who's interfacing right.

Speaker 3:

With the appraiser, appraiser is. Totally different. Right. So a hundred plus thousand dollars difference. Now for me, I I'm, again, I'm not I'm , I see that as what are the financial impacts of that? Because people use their homes, the equity in their homes, they might start a business that might pay for college. Right.

Chase Peckham:

Sure.

Shawn Rochester:

They might leverage it to buy another home, to generate income right. For their family.

Chase Peckham:

Rental properties., whatever. Sure.

Shawn Rochester:

Yeah. Right. And then that's part of that. You can use that now to have economic mobility, right. To move in a place that , that may be better for you and your family, for whatever reasons. And now you have actually resources to leave to your children and their children. So they're starting off with , in a , in a better situation, right. For their kids, because wealth is directly tied to educational outcomes, health outcomes, all that stuff. You are now eliminating people's ability to leave a positive legacy, right. And to have a positive impact today on themselves. And then we don't just interact with just ourselves. We interact with our communities, right. We're engaged in our places of worship, right. We're engaged in our nonprofits as volunteers or board members or contributors and givers and different things. Like it has a huge ripple effect. And this is what I want people to understand. It's more than just that, you know, it's unfortunate or it's wrong or is disturbing, is that this thing is economic and it's financial. And it resonates actually across, you know, generations. Now we don't know the other aspects of what they're dealing with. We don't know what's going on with their mortgage and the fees and how they were perceived or seen or any of those things. Right. We don't know what the appreciation has been on their house or , or hasn't right. And , and the challenges , you know, because we don't know, we think like this can't be real, right. That must be that town, that family, and that particular appraisal, that's a one offer. You know what I mean? And what people have to understand is not, that's just an anecdote within a much larger framework. That's actually been statistically, looked at the levels are very high. That's just one way, which it manifests itself. Right. I'll give you this quick example of a study that was done. I think it was by like, I think it was Yale and like Harvard business school. And they wanted to look at kind of discrimination in online space. So , uh , what they did was they did a study based on eBay. They got some baseball cards, right. Uh , and he put them online, they put them up for sale. And what they found was that there was like a , I think it was like a 20% differential and a price. Same as that baseball card. She's just depended on whether it was being sold by a black person or white person right now. Again, it , it , it doesn't make any sense. Like it's a object that value.

Chase Peckham:

that makes zero sense.

Shawn Rochester:

Why would there be a price difference? None. Right.

Chase Peckham:

None.

Shawn Rochester:

question you might have also is anyway, how would they even know whether the person was black or white? Right.

Felipe Arevalo:

Is it just the picture of the person holding it.

Shawn Rochester:

Yeah. Here's what they did. So when they to display the baseball card, they had the person hold it in the tips of their thumb and pointer finger and then take the picture. So it's , so you have white hands holding it with the tips. So just the tips of your finger showed enough melanin to say, that's a black person triggers a pricing differential in the same asset, the same object. Right? So the, what people need to understand is this, this stuff is real and it's actually has a significantly larger negative effect that than you would believe ordinarily, right? You might think this guy's just talking and I'm like, no , no, no, no. This is, this is a study that was done in a significant way. And they've done these things on Airbnb, right? If you are black versus white, you could be looking at a 30, 35% differential, right. On your offering and, and their reaction, or the anti-black bias shows up whether you are , uh , renting your home or whether you are a renter trying to utilize somebody else's property.

Chase Peckham:

Right.

Shawn Rochester:

So that's significant. So you're losing as a person who's trying to generate income, and then you're also losing, right. Because either people are less interested in you, right. Or they want to charge you more. If you're, if you're , uh, if you're black and trying to utilize, someone's someone else's space , again, all of this flows through your PNL, your personal.

Chase Peckham:

Right.

Shawn Rochester:

Profit and loss statement. And all of this hits your personal balance sheet, right. Either you are getting less cashflow or you're paying more of something else for something that's that one would think would be irrational and irrelevant, quite quite frankly. And , uh , at a time and in a country where the only thing that's supposed to really matter, it's just hard work. Right. Um, and , and , and there's so much more to that. And that's, what's missing from a lot of dialogue in Conversation.

Chase Peckham:

And missing just ignorance. I would think it's just, and I'm not saying everyone, cause you talked about the 56% versus the 51%, but you know, as you talk to that, I mean, I'm, I'm having, you know, gut reactions and physical reactions. And when I go to rent an Airbnb, I I'm looking at the place. I'm not even, I don't even know who's renting it to me. Right . So I guess that's what hits me is I can't imagine people looking that deep to, for a transaction that, that , that shocks me. And maybe I'm ignorant for thinking that way

Shawn Rochester:

We listen, the question becomes, how would you know now granted people are saying this, right? Like we know about taxi cab , like everybody in America has got to know that. Right. We've seen it in all the movies, the sitcoms, or if you're black, it's much harder to get a cab and all that. So we've heard about those qualitative types of things. We don't know how to translate that into something quantitative.

Chase Peckham:

Right.

Shawn Rochester:

Well, when you start and then how is this discussed in K through 12? It's not, how is it discussed at the university level? It's not, unless you get some hyper-focused class that would speak on levels of bias. And very often they don't take the next step of quantifying it . So think about this, right? So you , you might be tempted to say, okay, all right . So research says that this stuff is happening.

Shawn RochesterSpeaker 3:

Right. And okay, it's happening in some areas that are really important because your home is your biggest asset, right? Like a super critical.

Chase Peckham:

it's the American dream, right?

Shawn Rochester:

It's 100%. Right. And it , but in the higher end areas, you know, with the high end careers, surely people are more objective. Right. They've been through so much training. They clearly have to be like beyond this type of thing. Right. And by the way, it's bad for business. You know? So a study was done to look at discrimination in , in the legal industry. Right. Um, so , um, a firm did , uh , something that was really clever, they created a memo from one of , you know, it was supposed to be from an associate and I embedded errors into the memo. Right. I believe it was 21 errors. So errors and facts, you know, the analysis of the facts, grammar, spelling, whole host of things. Right. Um, and he sent it off to a bunch of law partners, right. 60 law partners in big firms. Um, and one half of the group got, got the memo and they were told it was from a white lawyer, the other half. Got it. It was told us from a black lawyer, right. When the results come back in, like, how do you grade and analyze this, the group that thought it was from a white lawyer, gave it about a four to five. It's about 80%, you know, nothing to write home about. It's pretty good grade for something with 21 errors in , by the way, you know, when the, the, the group of partners that thought it was a black person, same exact memo, nothing different. They gave it like a 3.1 out of five. That's a failing grade in every school district in America, the same exact thing, no difference. And on top of that low grade, they had lower predictions of this. Person's likelihood to be a partner and make partner. So the difference between partner and not partner, it could be $11 million will be a career, right. You , you may not get the types of assignments and sponsorship and mentorship. If somebody starting off seeing more errors in your work product and already thinking that you probably likely not going to be like a great , um, you know , uh , partner. And when you think about what that means for that family and for their children, what you think that means for their community, where they interact and where they do business or for their work, places of worship, right. Where people are very generous. And I want to be very helpful, or for the nonprofit boards that you might sit on where you're making contributions to do good. Right. And in this world, it has a huge effect to that individual and to the family and far beyond.

Chase Peckham:

Generational wealth.

Shawn Rochester:

Yeah, absolutely. Right. So, and that's part of what people need to understand. It's not just, you know, that it happens and that it's unfortunate, it happens, and it has a financial impact. So what are the things that we need to do now to be able to combat that?

Chase Peckham:

Correct.

Shawn Rochester:

Um , so it , you know, what I, the book is basically a big case for commercializing black enterprise. And I talk about this framework that I call a PhD, which stands for Purchase Hiring Deposit in ways that create jobs, create and expand business and provide capital in the black community. Right. Because at the end of the day, you know, we're missing about 1.4 million , um, businesses with employees. Let me tell you what I mean by that there are about 2.5, 6 million black businesses. This was pre COVID.

Chase Peckham:

Right,

Felipe Arevalo:

right.

Shawn Rochester:

Right. Um , only about 4% of those have any employees it's roughly like 109,000.

Chase Peckham:

Okay. So they're sole proprietors.

Shawn Rochester:

Yep . Okay. Only 4% of employees that 4% generates about 70% of the revenue for black business, about a hundred billion dollars plus about a million people. And we're missing 1.4 million of those proportionately , right. Huge gap. We're missing over 6 million jobs across the boarder black community associated with those. Right. And then of course you have the massive gap and the trillions of dollars in terms of wealth, between, you know, black families and white families. It's those gaps that are driving almost all the socioeconomic issues that, that we're seeing. You simply cannot have a thriving community based on a massive gap in presence of businesses , presence of jobs, good jobs at that, and then capital. So

Chase Peckham:

Which leads me to another question, is there a cultural difference in spending and investment behavior in the black communities versus white communities and other racial communities?

Shawn Rochester:

I think once you adjust for wealth, there's no difference.

Chase Peckham:

So, okay . So that, that's a great question and that, and that's a great answer. And I was hoping that that was the answer. Um , so it really comes down to opportunity.

Shawn Rochester:

Yeah. It's environment. You , once you adjust for the environment in terms of economic resources and the other resources, the outcomes are , are, are the same.

Chase Peckham:

So how do we get there?

Shawn Rochester:

So there's a couple of different things. Uh , one of the things is that I talk about is first this framework, right? How do you, you know, when frameworks are really critically important, right? Because it helps people to understand the efficacy of whatever action is being taken. Right. Is it consistent with this? Right. So there's a giant national framework that we operate under. It's called U.S. Constitution. You know what I mean? In our actions, policies, business, whatever, consistent with this framework. So the framework that I'm talking about is a PhD. So I start off and I talk about what can the individual do? What can the organization do? What can the government do? Right. So the individuals, we have our own , um , personal spending, right? So the P is , um, purchase. So it's what you do as an individual, where do you spend your money? Where do you have your coffee? Who's your attorney, who's your wealth manager, who's your carpenter, who is , um, your plumber, HVAC person, whatever it is, where do you buy your cars? What realtor do you use? Those are all choices that we can make, right. Um, and it's really critical. So if you look at it on all levels and the other P is for businesses and organizations is their supply chain spent , or their procurement. And at core , across corporations, less than 2% of their span is on black enterprise, right across government at all levels, federal local state is it's 2%, right or less, even on the individual level when it comes to , uh , the black people in black communities, about 2% of the total income is spent on black enterprise. So you have to have a greater demand for the businesses, both that are present, and those that will come right. And we can do that through our individual actions. Organizations can do it through their individual actions. How do you leverage your payroll to make sure that black people are better represented? Cause great families are based on your ability to earn income, to cover cost today, have something leftover to for tomorrow, right. And communities are based on, on families, right. And countries are based on a pervasive communities. And if you don't have the income, none of those will be strong. Right. Um, the other piece of it is, is, you know, there is the higher, which is to what extent are people properly represented? There's the payroll. I mean, the supply chain, which is you can create tens of thousands of jobs by doing business with enterprise, right. With, with black enterprise.

Chase Peckham:

Right.

Shawn Rochester:

You know what I mean? Because they've got to meet the demand. Now you got to make capital available. Cause they're going to need access to working capital, right. As you get into the supply chain for these bigger, these bigger corporations. So use your balance sheet. You you've heard, probably heard about like Netflix is decided taking maybe 2% of their available cash and put it into black financial institutions bank . What they're doing is providing liquidity, right. In those, in those communities and through institutions that do it in an affordable non-discriminatory way, right? The , the , the credit is, is the grease, right? For , for business, you need it right. To grow, to thrive, to make payroll and all that stuff . So you can leverage your , uh, your, your procurement. You can leverage your, your, your balance sheet and then you can make sure people properly represented when you payroll and as individuals, we can do business, whoever we want. And when we do business with people, it creates jobs. Right. And then of course , um, you know, there is , um, the deposits, which is, you know, place, money and institutions that are providing liquidity for black people about, I think it's $4 out of every $10,000 in the us banking system is in a black bank. The ability to sell finance is just not there, right? So that clearly needs to, needs to change in a , in a big way. And those are things that individuals can do before any policy goes in place. So, but it's all under this banner of PHD. And if you don't do PhD, what are you going to get is you're going to get a fraction of the economic impact. You can do a $1 billion economic development project and the middle of a low income community. And almost nobody in that community benefit from it. If you are not intentional, when it comes to PHD. So you're hiring people from there and you are upskilling people who were there, right? And that you are doing business with folks who are there, and then you're using your resources to provide liquidity for folks who are there. You're not going to have an impact we're going to do is move those people out. And you're going to import people , uh , who can engage in that.

Felipe Arevalo:

It's like a gentrification type.

Shawn Rochester:

That's what happens because there's no PHD involved in it, right? So they keep wash, rinse, repeat again and again and again, and not seeing that you're actually not changing the architecture of the place. You're just changing the facade.

Felipe Arevalo:

Because they're no longer there. the outside in, and then pushes the inside out type of scenario.

Shawn Rochester:

So once we have the framework, now we can get in and think about develop and debate on which policies will actually drive the most benefit. Right? Because if you don't have the framework, you'll keep losing the benefit. You might bring in like a nonprofit and you're there to help people. And you probably are helping people. But I look at your payroll is nobody from , there's no black person on there. You're not hiring anybody. You could be hiring people and affecting families, right? You're not buying any of your products or services from anybody in that community. Again, running it through businesses that has this ripple effect. You're not opening an account and institutions that are providing liquidity there, by the way, that's all your choice to make. You don't need anybody's permission to do it. You could do that and have a huge multiplier effect and still be doing the good that you're doing. A lot of people don't do that. Right? So once you start to have the framework, now we can start talking about, okay, I've maximized what I can do. How can we now leverage what we can do? Right. And what are the best mechanisms to be able to do that? So this, this, this framework is really, really powerful and it's just missing. And it's missing from people who are really well, meaning like I've had conversations with people kind of take me through their plans and their approaches and they just, they never thought about it, right? It , it, it didn't occur to them. They weren't trying to be in a Ferris.

Chase Peckham:

And do you think.

Shawn Rochester:

people who are nefarious

Chase Peckham:

Because they , they have a pattern for how they do their business and they do it typically with the same people, whether no matter where they go, it's just kind of systematic.

Shawn Rochester:

Uh, I think there is that, but what drives that system? There's no question that this bias in that system, because the bias is talking is , is, is informing us consciously unconsciously about who we think is capable irrespective of their actual capability.

Chase Peckham:

Whether they know that.

Shawn Rochester:

Right, like all these studies where everything's the same, except the race. So technically according to free market, that's very irrational and we should not be doing that.

Chase Peckham:

Right.

Shawn Rochester:

That's a subordinating, but that's actually the background resonance of what's happening. So we've got to kind of shift that paradigm and then show people how they, a new framework that they can utilize and then help them work through it. Right. Because if you're like, all , alright , now I want to do that. How do I find these folks? Right. So it needs to be resources to help you find them. How do I upskill folks? Because if it is a low income community, like we're talking about in this example, it could be some other community. If it is a low income community, then the architecture of that place, people may not have been developed. Right. Um, to their fullness. So now you got to upscale people, right? So that they can work for you in different capacities.

Chase Peckham:

Right.

Shawn Rochester:

Who's going to do that. Right. And how do we cover that cost? There's a price on everything.

Chase Peckham:

Sure.

Shawn Rochester:

What role does everyone play? in being able to get to this, to this outcome, which has huge stimulative benefits, not only for those people, families, and communities, but also to , to the country, as a whole,

Chase Peckham:

It's an incredibly powerful conversation that we've had. And the amount of research that has gone into it is mind boggling to me. Um, my question, I guess, to you is do we do this through educating our organizations and companies, or do we look to government to make policies to do this? And the reason I ask this is the first thing that comes to my mind in , in this is, is through the NFL and the Rooney rule. And they make that rule , um, to interview black , uh, positions for head coaches. Is it kind of the same thing that we should be looking at in our economic and business communities?

Shawn Rochester:

Yeah. So it's that plus other things, the , the, the, the answer is that and more right? Because you , you, you definitely need the education of , of the business community, because people are operating based on what they know and see, feel and believe , right? Like they feel very justified in that, right? So people need to be provided the opportunity to get a different, to get actual information and context, and it has effect on, on some folks. The other thing is you , you need to upgrade and augment the curriculum. We're producing millions of kids who are graduating every year at university in K through 12, don't know, very little about us history and very little about the place that black people have in it. And what was extracted from and deny to black people. If you do not know that our brains are associated by nature, you would just be associated with your circumstance. You would have no context about the mythology of how that came to be. Right. You know, so you need that education , um, in , in the K through 12 and you need it at the university level. And we also need to be aware of it at our business level, because there's so much that people can do. And they also need to understand that the view is that it's a zero sum game, right? So I'm giving a bunch of stuff to , to other people in my life is my life has no cookies and cream. You know what I mean? So why don't you guys just fix yourself and I'll fix myself and it will be great. And the issue is the environment is reacting very differently to you. And you are unaware of it. You didn't ask for permission, you didn't give your authority. You, you don't even want it doesn't matter. Right? The steady state, the normal state is automatic white preference. Right. It's going to be interpreted differently if it's you, it doesn't matter that you don't agree with it. That's the process. The other issue is we never dealt with these things. They would just stop talking about, right? Like you never had a resolution coming out of slavery. Right. You never said, okay, all of the pseudo science that we created to justify just , uh , a level of dehumanization, right. And torture and rape, that's not been seen before was wrong. Right. That's not the case that people are people and all this kind of stuff. And it was done for economic reasons. And this, that, and the other, you just stopped talking about it and said, well, it's passed and you gotta pass some laws and you move on what laws don't change with how people feel and think and what they believe. It's not that they're not necessarily there necessarily, but you got to compliment them with wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, right. So they can have some empathy and be part of the solution. Right. And many people want to be part of the solution, but they don't want to help people that they think it's their fault. Right. And that context is really, really important. So you definitely need an augmentation of the curriculum. So just people know and understand, and you need information in the corporate world. And we also need to be specific because, you know, because people have a , you know, an anathema to thinking about things that are black, it's almost like it's beyond the pale. Hey, you're, you're, you're making something racial. That's not racial. Right. They convert it to something that's more, more comfortable, which is minority diversity inclusion, right. Which is a much, much bigger group. And that's great for all the members of that group who are not black, but that does not address the black specific issues. Right? So these are things that people need to, to , to kind of understand. Um, so you need to have that aspect of it. And then we also need to focus on, on the economics, which is when possible, where possible utilize high quality, black talent make investments in people. At the end of the day, we were taught that this is all zero sum. Your gain is my loss, right? And it was justification as to why to gain should go to one group, right. Which were like people from Europe, particularly men, but people from Europe in particular and others, less so and black people at the bottom of it, the fact that the matter is talent skill capability follows a normal distribution. It's Gaussian. It means 70% of people are in the middle. 15% are way above average, 15 % or below.

Felipe Arevalo:

It's a very common bell curve.

Shawn Rochester:

Yeah. That's common across all religions or ethnicities. People look about it, doesn't it doesn't matter. So what you are doing with these kinds of existing policies is you are under developing people. There's brilliance. That's actually not being developed. Right. The issue before, right. Was the brilliance wasn't there in the first place. It was all hyper concentrated in one group. So investing in one group makes the most sense investing in this other group is limited. So it's a waste of resources, it's totally wrong, right? So it's bad for capital when you don't invest in people, discrimination is actually really bad for capital providers. There's all these studies on how you get much better performance industry, leading performance. When you have more kind of diverse groups, what people don't realize is it's not magic. It's not the magic of putting in a bunch of different people in the room. What you're doing is including the brilliance, the horsepower and the perspective of people who have been previously excluded. Yeah . Right. This so that it's like, if you don't even care about all the touchy feely stuff, it's good for business.

Chase Peckham:

You're benefiting from backgrounds and knowledge. Yeah .

Shawn Rochester:

Yeah, yeah. It's , it's great. What you're doing is you're losing actually, when you don't include these , uh, these folks, despite whatever people believe the data is really, really clear on that. So it's a win for everybody.

Chase Peckham:

Let me ask you, we, we work with , um, lower income communities quite often , um, with, with children , uh, high school students and talking about finances, personal finances , uh, how to , uh, you know, take care of your home, introduced credit cards, introduce what they are, you know, the financial , um , system that they're going to grow up in. And a lot of the reaction that we get in lower income communities is we have no money. We have, no, we have, don't have two pennies to rub together. What do I need to learn this for? And we combat that a lot in trying to inspire and say, you know, this doesn't have to be this way. Um, how do we get through to those generations and those communities in that way?

Shawn Rochester:

I think we, we , we got to do two things at the same time, right? Um, you know, the black tax and stuff associated with that, it's ultimately all about job creation at the end of the day, business expansion is about job creation, right? Providing capital is about job creation. You know what I mean? So that's going to do a lot to have earned income. So in low income communities, they don't have enough earned income and a lot of solutions don't do anything to address it. It's fascinating to me that people don't realize that the way you address low income communities is to , by making them not low income anymore.

Chase Peckham:

Right.

Felipe Arevalo:

Right,

Shawn Rochester:

Right. So you actually have to be bringing in income earning opportunities. And that's where the investments in upskilling have to come from. Right. So because we're social right investments and your mom and dad, and cousin, and whatnot impact you because you're interacting with them. I'm now aware that there's an opportunity here. Right. I can see what that person is doing. So what are we doing to upskill people in this community? This is what I mean by complementing , right? So you guys I'm sure have a great and effective program who is complementing what you were working with. So now we bring in, you know, another company that is providing the training and we're saying, Hey, if we put, if we help people develop these skills, will you hire these folks? Right? And the answer is , yes, we will. If you, if you put in the time and they put it in time, okay, fine. Now people go from earning X to earning. Y we , you have just now created more earned income where you and myself and others who are very passionate about this, come in. It's how we got to turn earned income into retained income in a world that's fueled by spending and debt spending across income levels. Right? It's, it's, it's all kind of consuming.

Chase Peckham:

A hundred percent.

Shawn Rochester:

Now, these the information, right. And the strategies and everything that you're working, compliments that we've, up-skilled folks they're making better money. Now we can help them retain more. Cause they're not going to get the intergenerational wealth transfers because we just in the first stage, right. So all they're going to have and all that we have, like when I say we, I mean, me too, right. Is how. Is is how you are managing the limited resource that you have right now, that skill is become super critical because how do I help you think about when you make an automotive purchase, that's a huge way to get fleeced. Right?

Chase Peckham:

Oh for sure.

Shawn Rochester:

I'm sure you guys talk about that.

:

Absolutely.

Shawn Rochester:

You know, how do you think about these, these predatory lending folks , right? These kind of payday type loans, which is huge way of extracting resources. How do you think about when you're approaching, you've gone through this incredible content to get to a point of buying a home and how to think about that. How do you think about, you know, when you or someone in your family is about to go off to university, how do you get the best possible education at the lowest possible debt levels? What are the things to avoid all of that? Right. So they kind of go hand, hand, we have to have policies and programs that actually lead to higher incomes, right. Through, through upskilling of people who are present old and young. Right. And then we have to compliment it with the knowledge on what I call personal financial management. How now? How do you like you, you know, when I work with folks, I was telling him like, you are never going to get credit for driving a civic. Right? Like somebody is out there driving, you know, a Benz, you know, no disrespect to Mercedes. Right. And the assumption is they must be doing well. I tell people don't make any assumptions. You don't know anything. Right. You don't know if it's that their car, you don't know who that car belongs to. You don't know what they're paying for it . Insurance

Chase Peckham:

We bring that up constantly in our workshops constantly.

Felipe Arevalo:

I love my Civic.

Chase Peckham:

Do not judge the book by its cover. Yeah. You're absolutely right.

Shawn Rochester:

Yeah . You know , until we get under the numbers and then we kind of run through them, you know what I mean? Because what I've tried to do there in the area of personal financial management, you need to have a framework also. And our framework is what I call Sol Stewardship, Ownership, and Legacy. And we only do things that are consistent with SOL. Right. So stewardship is how do you manage your cash, your limited resources to drive cash flow , no cashflow , there's no conversation. Right? How do you put yourself in a position where you are the only one who has claims on your assets, right. That's being able to get out of and, and stay out of debt, which is very difficult to do. Right. And it's a continuous effort. And in how do you put yourself in a position with all of these challenges to actually maximize your , your assets at retirement, and then do these actions, are they consistent with SOL? And we go through all the steps associated with,

Chase Peckham:

Give us that acronym. One more time.

Shawn Rochester:

It's stewardship, ownership, and legacy. Right. And then people can say, all right, like now I know how to make this decision because when you, somebody could really afford that, that car, right. Somebody else is driving around on somebody else's legacy. You know what I mean? Like you could be driving your kid's legacy around, you know, there's plenty of things I could do. I just don't do it because I'm aware of how many buckets I gotta fill . Right. And once you start to become aware of the enormity of that situation, you're like, well , even when you do have resources, you feel like you don't have any resources. Right? So it's, it's, it's complimenting complimentary actions that need to take in place. That way you get the 10 X benefit out of what folks like yourself are doing. You know what I mean? And now that flows to intergenerational because when you help a parent or a personal place in meaningful roles , somebody else's life, you help them too, because they're like, well, how did you, how did you do that? Like , how did you get that? And, you know, there's a difference between, like I say, now people have substituted possession for ownership. Right. So you can see possession, you can't see ownership.

Chase Peckham:

That's correct.

Shawn Rochester:

Right.

Chase Peckham:

Yep.

Shawn Rochester:

So don't, don't focus so much on what , what you see. Cause you're assuming we don't know, unless you have that deed in front of you, you have no idea.

Felipe Arevalo:

Especially in the world of social media.

Shawn Rochester:

Ah, yeah. Apps and it's, the pressures are amazing. Like people look like they're James Bond. Right. Um, and so, but unless you have a framework, a guide by which you use, you know, like, and it's like, you know, as you go through different levels, how do you apply this knowledge to be able to do things like I'm like , you didn't have to buy, you know , cheap things just don't buy at retail. You know what I mean? Like I love discounts and I do that, you know, and personal life and you do it in business, right? You, you, the money's made on the purchase, not the sale, you know what I mean? If you buy poorly, that's how it stays. You know what I mean? So whether it's a pair of sneakers or shoes or you make an investments , the philosophy, right, the framework is the same and I'm not going to subordinate my future voluntarily if it's within my control, because I know what this would mean. And now if you start getting a critical mass of people who are now talking to each other about that stuff, and here's the final thing that I'll say deals are great, but it don't mean anything. If you say the a hundred bucks on a purchase, if you reallocated to consumption. So the things that we talk about is reallocated to SOL stewardship, ownership, and legacy, put that into augmenting your cashflow position, put that into your debt elimination plan, put that into whatever investments that you can possibly make right into assets at retirement, capture those savings and reallocate them to you. Right? And now it becomes a wash, rinse and repeat , um, you know, to the best of your ability

Chase Peckham:

Without question Sean today, I can't thank you enough for joining us today was , um , extraordinarily eye opening . And I feel very blessed to have been educated in this way. Um, and I know that , uh, the work you're doing , uh, is going to have a benefit it's feels like I'm sure to you, that it's going to take forever, but this is the first steps to, to bringing equality where it needs to be.

Shawn Rochester:

Yeah. The great thing is you don't have to convince everyone , um, you don't have to boil the ocean, right. Um, and it's not going to happen tomorrow. You know, the the things that were done to bring today about took a long time, right? The things that are going to need to happen to change it, it's going to happen . It's going to take the time it's going to take a long time. We just need to be making sure to be ensuring that we can do what we can, right . What's available to us. And that's why I say when possible, where possible to PHD , um , make sure the companies that you do business with know that is something that's important to you, and they will do it , uh , make sure that the people who represent you right. Make sure that it's important. They know it's important to you. You know what I mean? And then the institutions that, we're a part of, whether it's our place of worship or whether it's our Alma maters of we're so fortunate, right . To have gone to university, make sure that they know sometimes they don't realize how much they're leaving on the table because they don't have the right framework.

Chase Peckham:

I think we can leave it right there. Shawn, thank you so much for joining us today.

Felipe Arevalo:

Thank you for joining us.

Shawn Rochester:

Chase Felipe pleasure is mine.

Chase Peckham:

Let me ask you one more thing. If people want to find out more, if they want to work with you, if they want to be educated as well, where can they find you? And I love it. You know, you mentioned PHD at multiple times and I'm guessing that's where PHD enterprises came from.

Shawn Rochester:

Yeah. So , um, the people you can go to the website is www.blacktaxed. That's with an ed .com that's www.blacktaxed.com. And , um , and you know, you can get the books and information there. Uh , w we're going to have courses on the site , uh, that go through stewardship, SOL, legacy , uh, you know, all of that, I can be reached at a [email protected] People have kind of questions and want to reach out. I'm also on social media well I'm trying to do better.

Felipe Arevalo:

That makes, that makes two of us.

Chase Peckham:

Yeah, that makes three of us.

Shawn Rochester:

So I'm also on LinkedIn , uh , that is , uh , you know, Shawn Rochester and Twitter at blacktaxed and Instagram at blacktaxed and Facebook as well.

Chase Peckham:

Again, thank you so much.

Felipe Arevalo:

Thanks for sharing.

Shawn Rochester:

Thank you guys. Appreciate it. Take care of yourself. [inaudible] .