Talk Wealth to Me

#056 Financial Therapy: A dive into Our Individual Mindset of Money and How it Affects Our Relationships with Nate Astle

September 25, 2020 Felipe Arevalo, Chase Peckham, Guest: Nathan Astle Season 3 Episode 5
Talk Wealth to Me
#056 Financial Therapy: A dive into Our Individual Mindset of Money and How it Affects Our Relationships with Nate Astle
Show Notes Transcript

Money... Finances... are so incredibly mental and emotional. Yet we all tend to learn about these on our own and figure everything will work out. Why shouldn't we get help with it? Not just setting ourselves up for retirement but with the emotional side of it? According to the Financial Therapy Association, financial therapy is a process informed by both therapeutic and financial competencies that helps people think, feel and behave differently with money to improve overall well-being through evidence-based practices and interventions.
 
On this podcast, we spend time talking about decision making regarding money and finances. Why is it that we make the decisions we make? Why does buying something off Amazon make me feel better? Why am I afraid to buy anything? Have you ever wondered how money makes you feel and what money means to you? Well, we get down deep into those questions and more with Nathan Astle. Nate is family therapist at Kansas State University where he is also attending graduate school. He is also a board member at the Financial Therapy Association. 
https://www.financialtherapyassociation.org/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathanastle/

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Speaker 1:

[inaudible] Welcome to top wealth, to me, a safe space podcast, where we chat about anything and everything related to personal finance,

Felipe Arevalo:

The information contained in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It does not constitute as accounting, legal tax or other professional advice.

Chase Peckham:

Hello, and welcome to another edition of Talk Wealth to Me I think it's really safe to say that every decision we make when it comes to money, we'd like to think isn't an emotional one, but how many decisions do we make that are emotional? How many issues do we have with money? How much of these did we get when we were a child? How much of it is just within us? We have that conversation in this episode with Nate Astle he is a board member of the financial therapy association and a financial therapist. Just kind of give us a little bit of your background. How did you get interested in money and then not only that, but the psychology of money.

Nate Astle:

Yeah. So , um, my, I guess home discipline is in couples and family therapy. So I'm, my heart is in the therapy part of this, where it's, we help people think, feel and behave differently. Um, and, you know, reduce distress really , um, money came up because , um, I, well, honestly, initially it was my first semester in my master's program and I was looking for a job and they had a financial coaching thing here and I was like, Oh, okay, that's interesting. It's it's coaching, you know, it's that line of work. Um , but then as I started really doing my own personal deep dive to where my beliefs about money came from and , um , got more involved with financial therapy. Cause I , it felt like it was like, yeah, this is , uh , this is a significant factor in how families function as is their financial behaviors. Um, I started up thinking about my parents and, you know, the fights that they would have about money and how much of that influenced my, my financial behaviors later on in life, but also my relationship with my partner and how she and I can, you know, talk about different financial things differently. So honestly, ever since getting involved with like financial therapy association, it's been kind of a whirlwind, but it's, it really shows how, how deep some of this money stuff really is.

Chase Peckham:

So why don't we jump on that right away then, then what is financial financial therapy?

Nate Astle:

Yeah. Um, I mean, the definition from the you'll find if you were to Google financial therapy, it's , um, it's a process informed by both financial and therapeutic competencies. Um , and it helps people think, feel, and behave differently with their money. Um, the goal is not just to make more money. This isn't like behavioral finance where we're, you know , timing markets and things based on fear and risk and all that kind of stuff. It's the goal isn't just to make more money. The goal is to improve overall wellbeing is how do we help people live better lives as it relates to their financial behaviors?

Chase Peckham:

And that's interesting because it's, it's, I would imagine that not too many people are like looking up and Googling , uh , financial therapy when they're looking for a therapist. Right. I mean, that's not something that most people even think , uh, I need to go do this. So how many people will be searching you out and looking for therapy, and then as part of the therapeutic process, this, you find out that that could be a big root of the problem.

Nate Astle:

Yeah, honestly, it's still fairly new. I mean, the , the association itself is only a 10 or 11 years old now. Um, and so with that, most of the public might not know what is financial therapy. Um, but there have been lots of different outlets that we've been able to get into. And as far as, how do you market yourself and how do people find you as a financial therapist kind of depends on your home discipline. So if , if you were a therapist they might be searching for, you know, a couples of therapist or , uh , you know , therapists that can help me with anxiety, for example, and then they, as they talk, or as they're searching you, you know, on your little Psychology Today profile, you might have something about, and I specialize in money or money disorders. Um, on the flip side, if you're a financial planner, you might talk more about, you know, financial life planning, for example, where it's, it's more holistic approach. It's less, you know , focused just on investments or certain insurance coverages, things like that. It's more holistic about your overall financial goals and then talking about, okay , so, you know, when it comes to, how do we actually reach our goals? It's , it's learning to follow through on a plans of financial therapy is a really great way to examine some of these underlying things that might affect these plans. So it kind of depends.

Felipe Arevalo:

So you kind of get , uh , either side of the spectrum, depending on what you specialize in. Is there times where people you start, you know , going through a regular therapy and then all of a sudden they realize, Oh, wait, I'm having less of these issues because of money. Um, you know, is it ever like that, Oh moment. Or it's like, wow, I can fix this a lot easier if I address this issue.

Nate Astle:

Most of the time when they, when clients come and they have, they have something they want to work on and they're like, okay, I'm having trouble with my partner or I'm having anxiety attacks or I'm having really bad depression. Um, t hey aren't. A nd most of the time, I think a lot of them can say, and i t's, it's usually around money. U m, honestly the biggest problem is, is that therapists in general tend to avoid topics around money. There's actually some interesting research on this, that, u m, therapists themselves as helping professionals sometimes have scripts or beliefs about money that, u m, make them want to avoid conversations about money. U m, and that actually comes out in the way that therapists are paid. U m, so if you think of a social worker, u m, they aren't paid very much honestly, u m, r ight there. And when they look at that, there's actually a , a decent correlation with it's called a money avoidant script or money avoidant belief. It's this idea that I d on't, I don't want to have to deal with t he money i t's t oo b ig. I t's too scary. Rich people are greedy and there's some virtue of living a poor or a less than life. And that belief system is associated with lower income, but also it's also associated with people in t he helping professions. So therapists, social workers, sometimes nurses. So it's kind of interesting research that even the professionals sometimes avoid topics around money

Chase Peckham:

When in reality, I mean, I think we all know that most the time , uh , I would say most people at some time or another are going to be very stressed out regarding money, whether they have it, don't have it. I want to hold on to it. Um , how do you discuss that with people? How do you bring that up to discuss, Hey, this is a finding, you know, a financial issue you might have outside of, you know, what typically people think of when they're stressed is I don't have enough of it. Right? Or I'm trying to keep it.

Nate Astle:

Yeah. Um, I mean, one of the first things I do is like, I kind of explore , um, before we get into the numbers. Um , quite honestly, unless they're in this emergency situation and they need immediate resources before we even get into the numbers, I ask them, you know, you're sitting in here and you're talking about money, what feelings are coming up, I'm feeling anxious. And you're like, okay , great. I mean, not great , but like, okay . So you're feeling anxious. And what else are you feeling? Well, I feel like you're gonna be judging me. Okay . So there's, there's maybe some shame in there. Do you think that fits and what you're doing is you're , you're just poking at their process. What does their emotions look like? What are they thinking about? Um, and then I like to go backwards and say, okay, so, you know, is this how you normally feel when you think and talk about money? Or do you talk about money? And you can be like, yeah, most of the time I'm feeling anxious or worried. And I'm like, that's why I'm here. I'm like, great. Okay. So, you know, before we get into , um, looking at, you know, all the numbers and what's your net worth and all that kind of stuff, just want to talk about, you know, one, how does money make you feel and what do you think about it? You know, are there certain experiences you have growing up that were like really impactful, how you view money? Um, and so then this obviously changed a lot depending on the person. But if I, if I grew up in a house where money was a big source of conflict, I might have an aversion to money. I might not like talking or thinking about it. Um , because I associate it with this really negative time period in my life, or maybe I grew up in poverty and it felt like money was never there when I needed it. And that was something I saw a lot of stress from parents though there . So I'm going to try extra hard to always be getting money. Um, and maybe not always, but maybe it comes at the cost of other important things in your life, like family or other relationships. Um, so I , I start there, start with okay what feelings are coming up with , what are you thinking? Where do , where are those thoughts and feelings coming from? And then once they can kind of identify, okay , there's, there's actually some things in my past that affect why think and feel the way I do. They'd be like, great. Like you're connecting with this part now, how is that stuff affecting your financial behaviors now? And so then I might take a deeper dive into the actual numbers and be like, okay, so you're doing this and it's not really in your financial value system. It's not something you have to value, but it's something you keep doing. Keep on , help me understand this. Do you think that any of that is coming from this stuff that you were talking about before? So just helping them piece together, their relationship with money.

Felipe Arevalo:

That's great that you mentioned it because most of our presentations to youth, like a college age students, so we have our most popular one is budgeting and we're out in the community. And that's one of the questions we like to ask. You know, what feeling does just the term budgeting with people who are associating as money, you know, what feeling does that bring to you? And, we rarely get an answer about happy or anything like that. It's usually stress restraints , um, worry , uh, you know, so even at a young age, especially, you know, you get the, the idea of the quote unquote broke college student , uh, lifestyle, and, you know, they, they , they have a negative connotation to money. Very rarely do we get something like uplifting, stress relieving, you know, one time we had someone recently say, you know, power. And I was like, Oh wow , we don't get that one often, but you know, it's usually negative. Do you find that, is it a generational thing? Where, or , or is it just more individual thing? Like do younger generations because, you know , they may have gone through different things. Obviously every generation goes through different things. It does it kind of follow generational lines, the outlook on money.

Nate Astle:

Um , well, there's always, there's always a danger in , um, putting any one of a certain age into a certain box, right? Not all college students are the same , uh , however , uh , yes , uh , there are some generational things and there's some research out there on , um , millennials for example, are less likely to , uh , be investing or putting large amount of, or wide amount of monies to , um, things that are affected by the stock market because they, a significant portion of their time in the early workforce was during the recession in 2008. So there are things like that , but I think in general, money is a much more complex relationship , um, then is completely on generational lines. Um, but if you think about it, this, and this is an example of a financial trauma. So , um, our , our, I say our, you know , great grandparents , um , or grandparents that went through the great depression , um, they are going to have, and this was also research back. They are going to have different financial behaviors because of that time period, that time period in their life really changed how they behaved and felt and thought about money. Um, as far as generational thing, I think that makes sense if you grew up and saw the recession happening and saw family members lose their jobs , um, there might be certain belief systems there, but I also think it's a college thing. So , um, I mean money, isn't always this really sexy topic for most people.

Chase Peckham:

Right . Um , for sure. Trust us, we know.

Nate Astle:

Yeah. Um, but you know, if I'm thinking about budgeting , um, I'm also thinking about the party or the fun that I'm missing out on , um , by not participating in maybe financially inappropriate activities. Um, and this is again , uh , if you're interested in research, Stuard Heckman came out with an article about a couple of years ago, and one of the biggest things that affected college financial behavior , uh , was FOMO. So fear of missing out, and which makes a lot of sense. So if you're going to be addressing this with students, you're going to want to talk about FOMO when you're going to want to talk about how can you engage in socially fun things that are developmentally appropriate that aren't, you know, financially responsible, I guess.

Chase Peckham:

And that's funny because I spent a large majority of my young life with FOMO and a there's a reason I got myself in so much credit card debt when I was that young. But, and that seems to be behaviors that a lot of kids going through school and starting their lives, they get into that, into that part of it, just not knowing how to use those vehicles, right. How to, how to handle their money. Um , but, but also making decisions based on whether they're going to be a part of something or not. Uh, and you're, you're exactly right. So let's kinda let's you mentioned something earlier, that was really interesting. It caught my attention. Uh, but you said that you remembered your parents arguing about money quite a bit. And that, that was probably I'm gathering. That was a big source of , uh , animosity, or if they did have arguments, it was typically about money or something like that. And I think that we all have that. I mean, I, I mean, I'm sure all of us at some point have had that. So how did that affect you then in the way your behaviors were with when you finally got into a relationship?

Nate Astle:

Yeah, that's a good question. So , um, and this is a story I share. I'm not shy about it, I guess. So I remember I grew up in a middle, middle to upper class , um , family. So I didn't come from a place where money was in the wants , and I felt like I was, could get what I needed. Um, but I do remember when I was about 11 or 12, my , um, my dad bought a four Wheeler, a quad and he did it without telling my mom, and there is significant conflict that happened out of that. Understandably. Um, but I remember even at 11, I remember thinking, Oh, cool, there's this new toy. And I don't, you know , I don't know anything about the money. I'm just excited to go have fun. Um, but I remember seeing them fight about it. And me internalizing as a man is me enjoying this new toy, somehow making their conflict worse. Um, just the fact that I liked this who I, who had no real say in the financial decision , um, is this making things worse? And so that's kind of where some of my money avoidant beliefs started. It was like gosh. It's just always money. It's not just like, Oh, you shouldn't have spent money on this money problems. Also come up with time at work money problems also come up with, you know, financial priorities. Um, so it's , it's, it's not always about parents or people fighting over dollar bills maybe takes on a different language. Um, anyway, flash forward , um , I , I got married and , um, I guess the identity I held at that time was the poor college student. Um, and I remember there's time that my wife and I were needing to talk about our budget and talking about tuition and things like that. I just, I just felt so much, so much anxiety and I hated it. I just hated it. And then I , you know, we started getting into Excel sheets and Mint, man I love mint to love that they try and make it too . Um, but all those things just brought up a lot of feelings that I didn't want to deal with. I think there's some also some gender things about, you know, the man and the relationships , as opposed to, you know, making money, all those kinds of things, which honestly is a whole different topic. But point is, is it those that first year was hard for me to get into it . I knew I had to. Um, and luckily I had a partner that was supportive and was patient with me, but it was, it was difficult at first. Um, so later when it got into financial therapy, all of the experiences that I had had when I first, first married and when I was a kid, sort of make a lot more sense in context.

Chase Peckham:

Well , and then, so you have your own issues with, with money and, you know, from, from your past, and then you bring a second person into the equation, right. And now they've got their whole background. So now you're supposed to combine these two backgrounds, right. And these different money personalities and make them work and that's gotta be incredibly difficult.

Nate Astle:

Yeah. Um, and that's with every couple. And so the , you know, as a therapist, couples are kind of, they're my jam. That's what I like to work with. And every couple has things that they are just different about. And this is if you really think about it, it's unfair to expect any two people to believe and think the same way about everything. Because even if you grew up in the same family , um, I mean, they're all different from our siblings and lots of way were , you know , raised by the same people. Um, so like my point is , this there are going to be differences with financial beliefs, personalities, whatever you want to call them. Um , and they're normal and it's okay if they sometimes cause conflict. The important thing is that you are intentional about addressing him and not just about, well, I believe this. And he believed that intentional about the communication process. Well, it wasn't just that you said that I shouldn't buy it made me feel like I didn't have a say. And so then you start talking about power in the couple relationship. That's a much deeper conversation than, Hey, you shouldn't buy the new video game or whatever it is. It's , it's a deeper conversation about, you know , relationship dynamics and that's what needs to happen at the financial conflict is really going to go away. You need to have those kind of conversations.

Chase Peckham:

How much of that dynamic comes from just the personality within the human being as well as their background. Um, for instance, and the reason I say this is my wife, very type A personality , um , just kind of a take charge person, always gets it done, you know, that kind of person where I'm kind of the opposite. Right. And so in our dynamic, and when you mentioned, we, you know, how often do we find somebody that's exactly how boring would that be if, if we found our exact counterpart, right? I mean, I love the fact that I feel like I grow from my partner being with my partner and learn from her. And she learns from me in relaxing and not being, you know, overly aggressive when it comes to making decisions. Right. And I guess that's 14 years of marriage and 17 years of being together, but learning how to grow from each other and how, when you sit people down, how often do they even recognize that those things are going on?

Nate Astle:

Not, not very often. Um, it's, it's hard. I , I have empathy for that because it's hard to do that personal work of like, Hey, where's this coming up for me? And what's coming up. And , um , how am I really responding when my partner says X, Y, or Z, to me , um, it's hard to look at yourself. Um,

Chase Peckham:

Oh my gosh, yes.

Nate Astle:

It's especially hard in couple relationships , um , or, you know, just romantic relationships in general. Cause you're being vulnerable with this person. You're sharing things with them that you probably don't share with most of your other, you know , coworkers and things. And so when they respond in a way that rubs you wrong, just those natural personality differences, it feels a little bit more personal. Um, so, you know, I would say there's, there's probably things when it , in any financial conflict or any conflict for that matter, there's probably things from both of partners in their past that kind of, once you understood that it makes sense why they respond the way they do. But then also couples tend to get into a cycle where if you've ever noticed that you fight with your partner about the same thing over and over and over again, it's because the there's a dynamic that couples engage with every time they fight. And , um , it's that that process , um, also gets in the way of resolving the conflict. That's probably more details than you want, but it's , it's a you , me and us problem, I guess.

Felipe Arevalo:

I love the details. It's very interesting that you mentioned that it's, it can cycle. So that's kind of where you guys can, you know, talking to someone can kind of help break that cycle or stray away from it to try and get to a resolution faster. Is that or a middle-ground faster ?

Nate Astle:

Yeah. I think a couples, family therapist , or a financial therapist, even if you're, even if you're just a single student , um, if you notice that money issues as many stress as a problem for you, seeing someone that has, you know, financial and therapeutic skills , um, about that could be a really helpful way to identify your personal cycle. So I feel when I feel anxious and this is just an example, and I feel anxious, I do a little retail therapy and I buy some extra stuff on Amazon. Then I feel guilty about that because it doesn't fit with my money values and I don't have the money. And then I get more anxious. Eventually it gets to the point where I can't, I can't regulate myself enough and so I need to buy something else. And so this is what I mean with the cycle, things perpetuate themselves and our behaviors. I'm until, you're able to look at it and make some different choices, oftentimes.

Felipe Arevalo:

I think you just explained my early twenties.

Chase Peckham:

Well, I mean, I guess that's true, right? I mean, anxiety comes from, I mean, obviously different places, but a lot of times when my mom passed away, I went through therapy as well and , and dealing with anxiety issues and never knowing that I had it right. That it was, and it was probably a little bit of depression too, as she was sick, but found out that I just, your mind, I just kept going down the rabbit hole and it just got worse because as you mentioned, it's just an endless cycle. So it's breaking that cycle and looking and having your brain look at things differently. Right. And having in learning how to cope with them. If you're trying to get one person, because they're going through that and then the relationship, but then the other person in the relationship doesn't see any of this as an issue. How does that then get resolved or does it?

Nate Astle:

That happens kind of often actually where one partner is experiencing a lot of stress about whatever topic. And then , um , the other partner doesn't know how to help. And so, and , and maybe they want to, and I , I hope that most partners want to help, you know, help their other , um, but not knowing how to help also can perpetuate the problematic cycle. So , um, and that isn't anyone's fault. And this the point isn't to blame any one partner. Um, it's okay . So I don't know how to help. And so I do what I can. Um, but maybe I'm anxious about talking about it. Cause I don't feel like I know what to do. And then I start feeling powerless. Um, and then my own cycle is starting with, even though I'm not worried about money, my own insecurities , um , are going on. And then when you come to me and you say, Hey, I need help with money. Um , or I need, I need help talking about, but I'm already stressed out because of this other thing, then I'm not able to be a helpful resource to you. And then you go back and your cycle continued because as a man, I don't have any help. So it's , um, it's always happening. There is never a time where you are not thinking, feeling and behaving and reinforcing your own thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. Um, and that happens in relationships. It happens in families , you five people that it's all happening at the same time. So being aware of yourself and being aware of how yourself responds to others , uh , it's going to be a good start.

Chase Peckham:

You have a client and they're discussing their issues. And then so through this therapy, they realized that, okay, my partner and I need to talk about this stuff. How often do those partners come in and , and, and then join you later , uh, when you originally had one as the , as a client and how often does that happen and do, or does it?

Nate Astle:

Yeah. Happens quite frequently. Um, not everyone's partners willing to come in and that's understandable and lots , lots of reasons why that might happen. But I think most of the, I wont say most, lots of times , um, there are partners that want to be helpful. Don't know how, and when I, as the therapist suggest, Hey , um, it might be helpful to get your partner in here to , um, at the bare minimum, just to talk about this all in the open so they know how to help you. Um, and then often times I find that the partner wants to stay because they're getting something out of a couples therapy like, Oh yeah, okay . This is really helpful. Cause I never know what to do when he says this, or I never know what to do when she starts doing this. Um, yeah, it happens quite frequently , um, where you'll, you'll get, you start with one and he kept more,

Chase Peckham:

How often do people come in and they want to talk to you because they have a hard time having money discussions on their own and don't know how so for you. Can you kind of guide them in , what is the, what is the area that should be discussed

Nate Astle:

If I'm understanding you? Right. It's like if I was having trouble talking money with my partner.

Chase Peckham:

Yes. So a lot of people have that. They, they want to discuss money. Uh , we , we work with people all the time. They want to discuss it with their spouse, but they don't know how, because it leads to that argument. It will it'll lead their blow up instead of, so if you're there as the third party, you can almost deescalate that from happening or, or do the couples just fight right in front of you too ?

Nate Astle:

Yes. all of it couples fight in front of me quite a bit. Um, I think , uh, yeah, having some role plays, but you're , you're not the goal isn't to take side with the person that's in the room with you, because there is the other person that you never seen them therapy that has their own issues. And maybe, you know, you're only seeing part of the picture and I , I try and be extra mindful of that. Um, but you know, practicing some things like, okay , you know, this issue usually leads to a fight. Um, do you, you know, tell me about your part of that fight. So, and they'll tell me, well, my partner does this. That's great. I love what you're telling me about your partner. Let's focus on you. What are you like in your fight? Um, and then talking about, okay , so what coping skills can you do? You know, your partner tends to say this, when you say this , um, what coping skills do you have or what else could you say in a way that maybe , um, makes that cycle a little less strong? And so , um, you might practice with that or if they say, I really just can't imagine myself doing that, I'd be like, okay, what would it look like for you to invite your partner to come in here? Um, well that would be really hard. Yeah. Okay. But you're really hard. What feelings are you having with thoughts you're having , um, you know, what, what would be helpful to , um, or has the rent a time that you have been able to suggest something and your partners going along with it? Um, what was that time like? And your , what you're doing is you're expanding their vision from beyond. It's gonna fail, it's gonna fail. It's gonna be like, okay . You know, you're looking for exceptions. Have there been times that it has worked. Um, and has there been times that me have been, you've been a little bit more emotionally unstable, so even if they don't respond positively, it doesn't totally throw you off. Um , there's lots of different things that therapists can do to invite collaboration.

Chase Peckham:

So do you feel like the , this, if you said like the, the association you're with is, you know, 10 or 11 years old, or we're just scratching the surface on therapy when it comes to financial counseling?

Nate Astle:

Very definitely. And , and all of this that I've been saying is been informed from a mental health therapeutic point of view. I'm a financial planner or financial coach might be thinking very differently, thinking about goals, thinking about plans and all of those constraints. It's not bad, it's just different. Um , and so there is so much room in here and financial therapy, isn't going to look the same, how I do financial therapy. Isn't going to look like how a planner might do it, or isn't going to look like another therapist. Um, but that's, that's okay. The point is, is are we helping people , um, think, feel, and behave differently with money, helping them reduce that distress and , uh, you know, doing it in an ethical way, which is a big part of financial therapy is ethics and, you know , regulation and making sure that we're not just people say, yeah, I'm doing financial therapy. It's like, no, you have to have some skills and some training in this,

Chase Peckham:

Honestly, talking to people, talking to a therapist and realizing that you're not alone in what you've gone through, that there are many, many people that go through the same thing, have the same feelings as you, that that's not an, it's not, you're not different. Um, it's just, and let me ask you, I mean, I think especially through these days that we're finding now through COVID therapy is becoming, and even before that it's, it's, it's become widely accepted more, and it's not an embarrassment that you have mental health issues. If you go see a therapist, that's not necessarily the case, you just need to talk through some things and have a good sounding board. Um, so, and why would it be any different for finances? In fact, as Felipe mentioned, when in our presentations, we talk about communication with your partner or spouse is one of the most, the most important thing you can do in a relationship. And that's about all of it. And money is a big part of it. So how this hasn't been a thing beforehand , uh, I'm not sure, but I'm sure glad you guys are doing it.

Nate Astle:

Yeah, I am. I'm very happy. I'm, I'm hoping I have big hopes and dreams for financial therapy in the future. Really it's, it's an important field and there's stuff that we can do about it is like, this is information that is out there , um, on, on , you know, on couples and finances, there's information out there on how to work on spending and overspending there's information out there. And so I'm, I'm excited and I hope, I hope that , um, over time the public can get more used to it, more accepting of it and that we can hold it to a , you know , a high standard as a profession then it's , um, that we're doing what's best for the general public.

Chase Peckham:

And tell us a little bit about the FTA, the financial therapy association , uh , that you are a board member of what is it, what work are they doing?

Nate Astle:

Yeah, so , uh , the FTA is the , um , governing body of the field of financial therapy. Um, what we do is we , um , provide research. Um, so like I said , we want to make sure that this isn't just a cool theory , um, but that it's actually working and that people are actually getting better when they go through financial therapy. So , uh , we sponsor the journal financial therapy, it's an academic journal. Uh, we have an annual conference that is both research and practitioner focused . So if you know, if I am a financial professional, or if I am a therapist, how do I use financial therapy, your trainings on that? And then , uh, recently in the last year, we came out with a Certified Financial Therapist designation. Um, so financial professionals and mental health professionals can continue getting continuing education and , um, take a national exam. And so show the world that they have competencies in both mental health and financial health practices. So we're, we're doing a lot. Um, we're also doing outreach and making sure that the general public is more exposed to ideas of financial therapy. Even if they never see a financial therapist, they just hear this podcast and start thinking differently great than we would have done our job. Um, but yeah, it's , it's primarily for the professionals, but we want to give the professionals the tools they need to change public views.

Chase Peckham:

Is that a good place for potential clients that are looking for therapy to find somebody that is an expert in financial therapy?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So if you go to financialtherapyassociation.org on the homepage , you're going to see a find an ft. Aha . And I believe it's separated by state. Um , there aren't, like I said, because the field is newer, there aren't a ton in every state, but there are quite a few practitioners that can see clients from across state lines. Um, there's some mental health practitioners that are required to stay within their state , um , that has to do with regulation licensing issue. Um, but if you go to find an ft, you probably are going to , um, be able to find someone that can help you. And if you're listening to this, you can go ahead and reach out to me. And I , if I can't help you, I can point you to someone that can,

Chase Peckham:

And that's great. So why don't you give us how people can get in contact? Yeah .

Felipe Arevalo:

Where can they get a hold of you ?

Nate Astle:

Yeah, you can. If you have a LinkedIn, I can just search for Nathan Astle. And then I think my title is like Board Member of Financial Therapy Association. I also have a Twitter. I tweet, you know, because I'm happy.

Felipe Arevalo:

I just followed you.

Nate Astle:

There you go.

Felipe Arevalo:

You have a new follower.

Nate Astle:

You also can email me. Nathan.astle93 @gmail.com . I'm I'm accessible. I'm not, I'm not trying to sell anyone, anything. I just want people to get the information and hopefully more.

Chase Peckham:

I think that comes through the microphone loud and clear. I really appreciate your time. And it was really eyeopening and hopefully we can We'll have you back.

Nate Astle:

Thanks. Yeah. Love to do i t.

Felipe Arevalo:

Yeah. Thank you .