This week the guys discuss the very difficult and often heart-wrenching decisions that need to be made by pet owners when caring for an ill pet. Chase discusses the roller coaster ride it has been with his dog, Jackson, over the last two years. Not just the emotional toll of caring for a sick dog, but the very real financial decisions that go with it. Most pet owners will endure this at least once in their pet's lifetime. What treatments do we choose? What is the cost involved in those treatments? Will it cure them or just sustain a normal life for a short time? And many, many more.
We all love our pets because they become a part of our families and love us unconditionally. Unfortunately other factors such as finances have to be considered, no matter how difficult those choices may be to make.
This week the guys discuss the very difficult and often heart-wrenching decisions that need to be made by pet owners when caring for an ill pet. Chase discusses the roller coaster ride it has been with his dog, Jackson, over the last two years. Not just the emotional toll of caring for a sick dog, but the very real financial decisions that go with it. Most pet owners will endure this at least once in their pet's lifetime. What treatments do we choose? What is the cost involved in those treatments? Will it cure them or just sustain a normal life for a short time? And many, many more.
We all love our pets because they become a part of our families and love us unconditionally. Unfortunately other factors such as finances have to be considered, no matter how difficult those choices may be to make.
[inaudible] Welcome to Talk Wealth To Me, a safe space podcast, where we chat about anything and everything related to personal finance, the information contained in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It does not constitute as accounting, legal tax or other professional advice.
Chase Peckham:Phil, what's going on? How are we doing today?
Felipe Arevalo:Good. Doing good. It's a nice day out. Um, weather is uh
Chase Peckham:It's okay for San Diego.
Felipe Arevalo:It's OK yeah.
Chase Peckham:I mean, it's in the low, low sixties, high fifties, and we find ourselves complaining a little bit and because we've had a stretch of quote unquote cold weather and rainy weather for us. Uh, but, uh, you know, with, with all respect to, uh, us Californians, uh, the rest of the country for the most part is, uh, in a deep freeze. And, uh, our former colleague, Brad Pagano, and I were going back and forth on text just yesterday. And he said he hasn't seen anything like that in 20 years. And he lived in San Diego for a long time, but as originally an East coaster, so he's used to cold weather and he said, it's pretty nuts.
Felipe Arevalo:Yeah. It's definitely something where, you know, we wouldn't fare well here in San Diego, uh, dealing with that kind of weather or anything even remotely close to that. But, um, you know, there's other parts that deal with it constantly. I know on, on social media, on Facebook, I'm part of like a dad group and there's the international dads and the Canadians are, are saying like, Oh, that's just, that's just an every day occurrence up here.
Chase Peckham:Well, no, thanks is all I can say. My brother-in-law and his family, my mother-in-law live in, uh, North Carolina and, you know, they get winter, but it's mild winters typically. And, but they've lost power for three days.
Felipe Arevalo:Wow.
Chase Peckham:Yeah. I mean these ice storms, they were getting were pretty crazy.
Felipe Arevalo:Yeah.
Chase Peckham:Well, this week we're going to talk about something that is a bit bittersweet for me. Uh, and it's been an emotional roller coaster, the last four or five weeks in the Peckham family. Um, something that you and I have known and talked about for at least the last three years and that's that, uh, our family pet, um, our dog, uh, three years ago, was diagnosed with cancer and took a long time to, for them to figure out what kind of cancer was very strange. Um, and you know, this is something that people with animals, uh, are, you know, this is not a new occurrence, right? I mean, animals get sick. They pass on. Typically when, you know, when you get a pet, you're probably going to out live your pet. You're, you know, there's, there's a finite amount of time. Uh, what's different about Jackson is that he was diagnosed with this lymphoma, a very strange lymphoma, something that our oncologist had never seen. Um, He was four He's a golden doodle and at four years old got cancer. And at the time, you know, we were devastated. It's like, we just got used to him being a really, you know, big part of the family. And, uh, you know, for me, it was my first dog ever, uh, never had a dog growing up, had a cat. Um, my parents, we were just traveling all the time and gone so much that my parents never wanted to have a dog because they felt like it wasn't fair to them. And, you know, I grew up and, and even into my adult life thinking, I don't want a dog, you know, I, I don't want that responsibility, but over time my wife and my kids beat me down and we ended up getting Jackson and to be perfectly honest, it was one of the best things we ever did. And, you know, of course, Jackson adopted me as his human and, you know, follows me around everywhere. And as much as he loves everyone in the family, it's for whatever reason, he found. Me. To be that guy that he goes right to and lays on my chest in bed and, you know, licks me constantly a very loving dog to everybody. I mean, and he loves people and, you know, at the time it was whatever we can do to help him. And we went through this process and thank goodness we had insurance. Um, we got pet insurance. In fact, what's crazy is we were, we, we barely ever went to the vet prior to the cancer being and we were going to get rid of it.
Felipe Arevalo:Right.
Chase Peckham:I mean, it was a conversation of, you know, we're putting money down, this, what I thought was this empty tube. Um, and thank goodness for it. Um, because you know, we're in hold your breath, his medical bills going into, um, all the treatment, uh, when, when all was said and done was exorbitant. And thank goodness that the insurance company took a large part of that. But that's just part of the story.
Felipe Arevalo:Yeah. It's something where, you know, with all insurances, um, until you need them, they feel like a bit of waste of money.
Chase Peckham:They do don't they?
Felipe Arevalo:Um, and then when you need them, you say, Oh, thank goodness I've been paying for this.
Chase Peckham:Right. Yes. I mean, and the thing is, is you just don't think that your animal at four years old is going to be diagnosed with a really when it comes to cancer in animals. I mean, it's, the percentages are in the nineties that they're not going to survive the illness. So basically terminal. So what we went through the oncology, I mean, if you would've told me, I got to know an animal oncologist, I mean, never in a million years would have thought about that. And we did everything we could. We went through the process and the great news is, is, you know, with the emotional ups and downs, We did something called a chop and it worked Jackson after eight months of, of going through chemotherapy, doggy chemotherapy, he came out of it and, and was in remission for close to a year. And so we got in, you know, when we were first diagnosed, they told us he could be eight weeks to 16 months. I mean, that's really all they gave him that was the averages and he made it. But, It's back about five weeks ago, we noticed he was limping. You know, we thought he might've just hurt his arm cause he loves to run and walk. And, but deep down, I think there was something in my stomach that knew. Um, and, and, and the tumors were back. And, uh, we've been going through the ups and downs of this since and the emotional rollercoaster that we've gone through has been crazy. I mean, as a parent and beyond the dog owner is having, you know, my wife and I Kerri telling the kids that Jackson's sick again and that, you know, and there's just, no, we don't know anything. Right. We do know that when dogs get cancer and if it's not treated, if it can be treated, it goes quickly. It can. Um, so we're just preparing ourselves that, you know, we could be weeks away from saying goodbye to our dog. And we, uh, since then have gone through a number of things, we're lucky enough that apparently chemotherapy is a possibility again, because he went so long of being in remission without any treatments, without any poison in his body, so to speak. Right. And we thought that there was no chance of this happening. We thought we were just gonna have to make him as comfortable as we can and make decisions very quickly though. He didn't suffer. And then we find out that treatments are possible again. And they tried one treatment and he was great for a couple of days. And then he went bad again. And then we figured, you know, we're told there's two chances choices here. We give him steroids, we see alleviate pain and being uncomfortable for awhile. And then, or we, we try one more chemotherapy that we know worked for him the first time, why this is relevant to this episode is we're not talking just about emotions here. We're not talking about just, you know, doing all we can to have our dog be with us as long as he can.
Felipe Arevalo:There's a significant financial component that goes along with all these decisions.
Chase Peckham:Yeah.
Felipe Arevalo:And, um, it's one that has to be taken into account, uh, as I'm sure you guys have. And it's something where it, it, it definitely weighs on, on the decision-making process when they're telling you one thing or another, along with obviously the, the, the, the want to have them around as much as possible and the want to have them not suffer as much as possible. There's that financial component that goes along with it. That that is not an inexpensive one. Um, you know, I had a dog growing up and he was over at my parents. I wasn't living with them anymore obviously, but a couple of years ago, just recently, Facebook does a good job of reminding you of things good and bad. Um, you know, we found out that he had cancer, unfortunately, you know, in that scenario, he was, he was much older. We adopted him from the shelter, so estimated 12 years. Um, so for a dog, for a dog that's, that's, you know, on the older side, um.
Chase Peckham:Yeah, you expect that.
Felipe Arevalo:He didn't show signs until it was very advanced. So, um, our decision was, I guess, in a, in a way you could say made easier, uh, from a financial, uh, perspective, because it was just so advanced that proceeding with treatment was such a low probability at that age. And it how advanced it was, it was a low probability of, it was going to be a lot of suffering for him for a very small probability of a very short extension.
Chase Peckham:Right.
Felipe Arevalo:Um, so, so there was that nonfinancial component that turned out to be, uh, if you look at it from a financial point of view, uh, a big, it relieved that decision-making of, do we proceed with this very expensive, uh, treatment, or do you just kind of just, uh, as you mentioned, make them comfortable as long as, as long as it's possible, and as long as it isn't making it any harder or any too difficult on the dog.
Chase Peckham:Yeah. It, you know, even you just mentioning that 12 years old at the advanced age and typical for a dog who's getting older, um, you could still see the pain in your face, right?
Felipe Arevalo:Yeah.
Chase Peckham:There's still that you're losing your pet and human nature says we'll do whatever we can to try to help your pet live a good life. And then there's those decisions that you just have to make. And, and that's where Kerri and I are struggling right now. Not that we won't do everything we can. I mean, he's now six and a half years old and he's not even seven yet. And it came back and we now are with the reality of, can we afford to do another full round of this because it was even with insurance, it was absorbent. I mean, it's still only covered a little more than half of what the total bills were to treat him the first time,
Felipe Arevalo:Right.
Chase Peckham:There's caps on all these different treatments and how many x-rays you can have and how many, uh, blood tests you can have and how, you know, then the treatment itself with the chemotherapy and everything that goes with it. Not to mention just the cost of the visits every time he goes, it adds up and it adds up quickly and you have to make a decision. And we struggle with that reality of we've got college to save for, for our two children. We've got our, just our regular bills. And then we've got this dog that we all love and cherish so much,
Speaker 2:But we got to have the conversation on whether we can afford to do that again. And what a terrible decision you have to make.
Felipe Arevalo:Right.
Chase Peckham:That you're literally talking about dollars in the life of your pet.
Felipe Arevalo:Right.
Chase Peckham:And that seems so ridiculous. Right? It seems like that well wait there. Of course, there's no question. You just, you do whatever you can to have your dog live as long as possible, where, when he's not suffering or hurting or uncomfortable, but the reality is, we're not sure how long we can do it. And it just, the emotional toll it has taken has been ridiculous. Not just that you look that poor dog in his eyes, and you know that you're going to have to say goodbye here at one time, that dog that loves you unconditionally and has brought so much joy to you and your family. But the reality of I can't go into 20, 30,$40,000 in debt in medical bills.
Felipe Arevalo:Right.
Chase Peckham:Because that would set us back. So, so far.
Felipe Arevalo:On so many other things, Correct.
Chase Peckham:And it's, I know it's something that people run into all the time. And if Jackson were 10, 11, 12, and our oncologist told us that most dogs end up dying of cancer.
Felipe Arevalo:Right.
Chase Peckham:But typically it's at an advanced age,
Felipe Arevalo:Yeah an older age.
Chase Peckham:Yeah. And it's just, it's, it's random that Jackson at age four would get cancer like he did. Now, he's a golden doodle. And we found out earlier that cancer has been running, uh, pretty, pretty regularly within golden retrievers, that golden retrievers are susceptible to cancer. So, you know, they interesting when they were putting the breeds together, they thought maybe that putting those breeds together might breed the chances of cancer out of it. And in, in our case, we, it hasn't seen it, but she's saying they're seeing more golden doodles in now, not at Jackson's age. This is a crazy weird thing. Right. So, um,
Felipe Arevalo:And it's something where, you know, we did the episode, um, um, with the doctor, a guest on from Baja dog rescue was early on, I think, season two. And, and we went over the different costs of potential costs of adopting a pet. And this is one that people don't like to talk about because, well, the human nature, we don't like to talk about sad things. Um, you know, we can talk about dog food and dog treats and cat toys and, and, and you know, all the different, fun things for our pets. But this is a very real expense with dogs, with cats, with a different extent with other animals. Uh, but there's that medical expense component that is an unknown, uh, you figure there's going to be your regular medical expenses, but, you know, as you mentioned, it can pop up usually at a more advanced age, but it could pop up at any age. And, you know, it's something that you, you want to plan for as a, as a pet parent, as a, you know, someone who has a pet, but, but at the same time, you know, we mentioned with so many things, personal finances, sometimes oftentimes the really big expenses, even if you have a good plan, may not be able to cover some of these bigger financial, uh, hits that, that happen from time to time.
Chase Peckham:And I mean, these insurance companies, they know what they're doing, right. You know, you can have good coverage, but they know that ultimately they're going to put limits on each of the treatments and they do it yearly. I mean, it's crazy. The timing that happened in this situation was Jackson got his tumor in early January. And we found out doc got diagnosed mid January. And we were lucky that our insurance policy was turning over because we had exhausted everything from this last year,
:Right.
Chase Peckham:Like anytime we went to a vet, it was out of pocket for anything at that point, unless it was a completely illness, right. Which doesn't, you know, broken bones or something, which we hadn't run into. We were just lucky that the very next week it rolled over and here we are starting all over again. And we have all of that insurance to us. So timing wise, you know, I, as a man of faith, I look and I go, God, man, God was he, he timed this. Right. Um, and still the emotional side of it, just the idea of, Oh my gosh, here we go. We've got to make these decisions again is heartbreaking. And the, the emotional roller coaster of being, I mean, literally last week, we thought he wasn't going to make it. The next five days we thought we were going to have to make decisions. I mean, our oncologist was in touch with our regular vet. Our vet called our vets, like giving us, this is, you know, the process we can come to you to put him down. You know? I mean, literally we're at that part. And we did one last chance of one chemo that he responded to before when they didn't even, they, they were having a hard time saying it was lymphoma. Again, the only thing they could, there's nothing normal about his cancer. And the only thing that they said was there's lymphocytes in this cancer. They thought it was a carcinoma or something like that. That was in his liver. And that's not even really treatable with chemo. It can make him feel better, but it's not going to be treated where lymphoma can be treated. And here he is like old Jackson, again, he's within days of giving them the treatment and you're going, Oh my God, he's back. But you spend every day looking now,.
Felipe Arevalo:Right. That added stress.
Chase Peckham:Is he limping again? Is he, is he is, he is vibrant and excitable and, you know, kissing us as he jumping up and down and off the bed or into the car, like normal, or is he, you know, basically trying to alleviate any pain that's in that shoulder and you go, Oh my God, well, how it looks, it looks like we're going to have to do this through the end of his life before we make that decision. And that's so hard and that, you know, I feel for so many people who have to go through these as a pet and make those decisions of, you know, do I put my ourselves in serious financial turmoil for something that you know, is going to come to an end sooner rather than later.
Felipe Arevalo:Right. It's definitely something where, and you mentioned it earlier, it's hard to put a dollar value on something that is so emotional where by nature, we think, well, that's invaluable, uh, is your pet's wellbeing and your, your pet's life because it, but there is a dollar value attached to it as, uh, insensitive as that may sound financially. You know, that that's just the, of the situation. And it definitely weighs into the decision making, whatever that decision is.
Chase Peckham:And that's what Kerri said. And I couldn't bring myself to say it. And as I was driving home with the dog Jackson sitting right next to me in the front seat, which he loves to do, and here I call Kerri and give her, you know, Hey, our oncologist is really upbeat. Uh, they want him back on Friday to do another round of a different type of chemo. And, you know, that's two days, that's two visits, you know, that's another a hundred dollars another, and we're not talking just a hundred. I mean, it depends on what they do that day. You know, what kind of blood, if they pull blood and cause they have to check white blood cell count with chemotherapy, all this stuff. And I'm like, we have to decide what to do. And he's like, what do you mean? And I said, you know, do we go down this road again? And we go through the emotional rollercoaster of, is it working? And, or do we let mother nature take its course? And as bad as that conversation is, and as, as, as you just said, as human nature, that's not even a question, right? I mean, it's a life we're talking about.
Felipe Arevalo:Right.
Chase Peckham:But at the same time we have to communicate and say, are we willing to go$20,000,$30,000 into debt for six more months, right. When that's all you're going to get. And that's a hard, that's a hard decision to make,
Felipe Arevalo:Right. And it's a difficult conversation to have with. And we talk about all the time communicating and talking to children about money that just, uh, exponentially makes the situation, uh, that much more difficult. You know, having to explain that, and we have a hard time grasping the concept and we do this money thing all the time and it makes it a lot harder for children to get a better idea of, of the, the, the, the financial implications and how that calculates into the whole decision-making process.
Chase Peckham:Yes. And it is a difficult one, uh, that we find ourselves in. And, you know, I don't know if there's a right answer. I mean, I wish I was in a financial place that I, it would not be a question, but it, you know, money would be no object, but it is. Um, and you know, I'll tell you, we're going to, we're working right now. We're, we're doing the best we can where we're, we're treating him. Um, and hopefully it works. Um, but there's, you know, we have the insurance to do it right now, but there's going to be a time when we have to make a decision on, you know, and I guess it depends on how well he's doing, literally it's a week to week thing now, day to day, and you know. How hard difficult this is just with an animal. I mean, for those who have gone through cancer with their loved ones or friends and the financial toll that takes, you know, it's, it's difficult. I mean, there's a big difference between a human and an animal. I mean, obviously, um, but although there are some dog people that would argue, I've met a few.
Felipe Arevalo:Some very passionate dog people.
Chase Peckham:Absolutely. There are, there are. And it's very individual thing that, that this is the reason I wanted to talk about. This is it's, it's a very real thing that people have to go through all the time. Um, and there are those financial decisions that we have to make through our lives that we might question for quite awhile, my heart breaks for my dog. And, you know, and it's, again, you go through it, you know, people are losing parents. I've lost my mom. I mean, people lose friends and in this time that we're going through right now, but an animal really does become a part of your family. And they become a very emotional point, um, of helping you get through so much, you know, going through all this things. And one thing I can say that I can say that, am I ready? I like to say that I was ready for this information. I was ready for this news. I was ready for the doctor to tell us the Jackson was going to be sick again, because chances were, it was going to come back. And so I felt like I was ready for it, but the emotional crying and ups and downs, and the looks on your children's faces, your wife's face has been really, really, really difficult. But one thing this pandemic has given us, which is, you know, obviously I wouldn't wish this pandemic anybody, and if I could do it over again, I would not want to have it, but we did get to spend what would be Jackson's last year of his life with him every day when we normally wouldn't have been able to do that, the kids would have been at school, both Kerri and I would be at work every day. We'd be with him all day or during the weekends, but we'd basically see him at night. And now he got to sit at my feet in my makeshift home office, if there's been any positives to this whole thing. Um, it's that I got to spend more time with my dog and, uh, I can't tell you how medicine and thankful to the vet that we have here in 4S ranch, that they've just Dr. Bone and her, uh, colleagues have just been unreal. Um, Dr. Miller, who is our dog oncologist up at, uh, vet specialty hospital in San Marcos have, the people they're the most caring, unreal, uh, animal loving, just really good people. And, uh, man, they have bad jobs, man.
Felipe Arevalo:I know.
Chase Peckham:You're an animal lover and then you, your dog oncologist and you know that most of the time you're treating your animal there. They're not going to have a good ending. Right. Um, but they've been amazing.
Felipe Arevalo:That's a tough one to say that you love animals. So you want to be a vet and then decide to go into that branch of veterinary medicine. Um, yeah,
Chase Peckham:It takes a special human being and Dr. Miller and the, the staff up there at vet specialty hospital there just their bedside manner. So to speak has been unreal. And, um, I can't thank them enough for helping us through this. Um, let you know what happens, you know, but, uh, it's not an easy decision to make on any way around. And, uh, you know, people shouldn't feel like they abs there's no wrong answer. There really isn't every, every animal, every, you know, they, their illness is unique to themselves, their situation, their outlook, um, insurance. I mean, all of it has to, you have to take that into consideration, but the emotion that you feel for your animal or your loved one is, is unmatched. Um, and unfortunately it, the money doesn't fall off trees, so to speak. Soo not one of our more uplifting episodes, but Phil, thanks for the conversation. I know it's something that we run into when we meet with individuals and they're trying to pull themselves out of debt. Um, medical bills are always a huge thing and animal bills, vet bills are a thing they're really is.
Felipe Arevalo:And it's something we encourage people to, to keep in mind when they're making the decision to whether or not they want to adopt or, or, or get a new pet. You know, there is the very real, uh, likely potential that there will be medical ex vet expenses associated with that. And do you want to take that? Can you obviously, if you're a pet lover you want to take on that pet,
Chase Peckham:Keep chocolate and onions away from dogs. That's what I can tell you. Jackson ate a sandwich with onions on it, and I never make my own sandwiches with onions on it. Usually I get onions when I'm out, eat out somewhere and he just happened to eat my sandwich off the counter that day. And then we had to go get his stomach pumped but we love him.
Felipe Arevalo:It's, it's always, uh, you know, it's, it's difficult situation and, and you know, the finances play a role in it, but you know, you want to try and be as prepared as possible and definitely be open to having the conversation, uh, with your family.
Chase Peckham:Yeah, absolutely. And communication again, you know, Keri and I had the conversations are difficult, but pent emotional, but you have to have those conversations together and know that we're, we're gonna, we're going to make the decisions together. That makes it a little easier that you know, that you both are on the same page.
Felipe Arevalo:Right.
Chase Peckham:Well, if you're enjoying this podcast, please, uh, like us follow us, um, leave comments. We we'd love to read those comments. They do matter. Uh,
Felipe Arevalo:And shoot us an email. If you have an idea for a future episode.
Chase Peckham:Or you have questions about any of the topics we can talk about. Thanks so much.
Felipe Arevalo:Thank you for listening.[inaudible].