This week we touch on a subject that is quite disturbing. Seniors have long been taken advantage of, and quite frankly, are the prey for scams. There are many reasons for this and Mitchell Freedman, a longtime CPA and financial professional, is an expert on the subject. He sits down with us to talk about his life's work to raise awareness about financial elder abuse and how to protect those we love.
This week we touch on a subject that is quite disturbing. Seniors have long been taken advantage of, and quite frankly, are the prey for scams. There are many reasons for this and Mitchell Freedman, a longtime CPA and financial professional, is an expert on the subject. He sits down with us to talk about his life's work to raise awareness about financial elder abuse and how to protect those we love.
[inaudible] Welcome to Talk Wealth To Me, a safe space podcast, where we chat about anything and everything related to personal finance, the information contained in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It does not constitute as accounting, legal tax or other professional advice.
Chase Peckham:Welcome to another edition of talk wealth. To me, and today's topic is elder abuse. Seniors have always been a target for fraud, uh, for crooks, uh, trying to get quick cash for a number of reasons. And there are so many different types of elder abuse. And today we have an expert on the matter he's a CPA. He is the founder and president of M. Freeman and company Mitchell Friedman. And this has been a passion of his for years, and he really breaks down what elder abuse is, how to combat it, what to look for and the ever-changing landscape of fraud in the 21st century. Really, I can't thank you enough for, Uh, taking the time out to be with us today and, uh, give us an expert, your expertise on a topic that we have not covered on our, our podcast yet, but yet it's a real thing. Uh, and, and, and, uh, something I've experienced with my grandfather. No, not at, uh, not internally. And I think that that's what we'd really want to talk about because when we talk about elder abuse, there's so many different forms and so many different branches to that tree. Uh, and we can go over those. But, uh, my grandfather, who was a, a brilliant attorney in downtown Los Angeles for many, many, many, many years, but in his elderly years, I don't know whether through boredom or whatever, but he got into all kinds of he'd sign up for magazines and all these things that were not legitimate. And he would get all these prizes. And I, and for those of you, can't see me, I'm putting, I'm quoting the air. Next thing you know, we'd find out that he would be 30, 40, 90, a hundred dollars would be coming out of his accounts every month. And it ended up that there was a big FBI probe later on. And my grandfather was very, uh, he got mixed up in it, um, unbeknownst to him, but it was out of Canada and it was, uh, it was a big deal, but it went on for years before anybody knew it. And we, I mean, we, he must have lost thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars over that period of time.
Mitchell Friedman:Yeah. It's extremely sad. Uh, and the experience you've just related is something I see all the time and I've been seeing it for twenty-five years. Uh, and those scams are going on to this day and the elderly, uh, unfortunately, particularly when it comes to telemarketing, uh, 80% of telemarketing scams are, uh, perpetrated against seniors. And that's really, really sad. Uh, but the, the entire process of financial elder abuse, um, is something that, uh, for many years was in the closet. People didn't want to talk about it, even the victims didn't want to talk about it. Um, but in recent years it is coming to light, but yet there's still a significant problem with it. Um, uh, I have seen estimates that only one in 14 cases of financial elder abuse are reported in 2018. The securities and exchange commission did a study. And they concluded from their study that only one in 44.
Felipe Arevalo:Oh wow.
Mitchell Friedman:Of cases of financial elder abuse are actually reported. So it is, um, uh, it's more than a cottage industry. It's a booming industry to defraud people. One of my colleagues said something, uh, just a couple of weeks ago, which resonated with me, uh, because we have this epidemic of financial elder abuse. He said, we really need a vaccine against fraud against seniors. And it was a very apropos and apt, uh, uh, comment that he had made and, uh, I've stolen it from him. And I, uh, I've been repeating it many times since,
Chase Peckham:Well, it definitely fits these days, doesn't it?
Mitchell Friedman:It sure does.
Felipe Arevalo:That's a very small number being reported, um, or with the study, do you think it's because I'm guessing it's a little bit of many factors, but this is sometimes go unnoticed except for the person who's falling victim to it. And they just don't have someone to notice it for them or there's something
Mitchell Friedman:Great. Quick questions, Felipe. Um, uh, the reality is there are a number of different dynamics that go into it. Number one, the victim is shamed at having to have been, um, uh, falling victim to, uh, such a crime. That's one thing. Uh, the second thing is that, uh, in many cases, particularly the smaller cases, it does go unnoticed because there isn't a plan in place, uh, in order to help the, uh, senior citizen, uh, manage their finances. And so it can happen that way. And the last reason, uh, which is also a shame, but it's certainly understandable is that many elders fear that if they come clean with the fact that they've been victimized, that their adult children are going to try to take away their power over their assets. And that too is, it is a reality, a lot of people, as they get older, they start losing control of their lives. They, they aren't permitted to drive any more. Um, uh, they have to take various medications. Their whole lives are, are different, and they become dependent in a lot of ways and controlling their money is one of the last things that might be taken away from them. And there's great fear of that. And again, it's very understandable, but, uh, I think that families have to have a plan in place, uh, in order to protect, uh, seniors who are starting to, or have already lost their cognitive ability, uh, due to, uh, Alzheimer's or dementia or, uh, other medical issues that a plan should be in place to protect them. Um, but all too often, unfortunately, I hear adult children wanting to protect their inheritance rather than wanting to, uh, see to it that their, uh, elderly parents are, uh, living their final years in comfort and ease.
Chase Peckham:Well, that's that's man that you, you, you stole my thunder because that's kind of where we were going to go with this. And because I, I experienced my mother, unfortunately, succumbed to, uh, dementia. And when it started to be, we really started to notice that things were going downhill. Uh, and my father, who is an extraordinarily, it learns so much with dealing with both my mother's parents and his own, I mean, just getting myself on her bank account to make sure that we were able to handle things if something happens to her, uh, which eventually it did. But then if God forbid, my dad gets in a car accident and he has nothing, what do we do? It was we had, and it was the steps that we had to take with the bank. And I'm not going to mention the bank that we were working with, but it was amazing how many steps we had to take just to get me as a signature on the account, just one bank account, uh, because obviously elder abuse is, is a huge, as you mentioned earlier, an epidemic, they obviously know this too. So they're being very protective of that at that time. My mom not knowing if I'm a good person or not, what is, and how many form or what kind of forms of elder abuse can take on?
Mitchell Friedman:Sure. There are, uh, quite a few, uh, uh, areas of elder abuse, uh, there's physical elder abuse, which is self-explanatory, uh, this sexual elder abuse, um, emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, self neglect, where, uh, quite a few, uh, elders, um, for a variety of reasons, sometimes fear of running out of money. They neglect themselves. And, but the largest area is, uh, financial elder abuse, which is also, uh, uh, referred to as material exploitation possibly is a legal term for it. But, uh, all of those areas of financial abuse are, uh, uh, matters that, uh, elders can encounter, uh, both, uh, at home, uh, or living with family members or living in institutions. And, um, uh, and unfortunately, uh, they do go on to a great extent and, uh, and seniors have to be protected against it. Um, it's, it's really interesting about 25 years ago, the American Institute of CPAs, recognizing that the tsunami of baby boomers who are going to begin to age started examining, uh, all aspects of senior's lives so that CPAs could, uh, better serve their, uh, elderly and aging and soon to be retired clients. And I was fortunate enough to have been assigned to this task force, which was a by country task force between the American Institute of CPAs and the Canadian Institute of chartered accountants. We also periodically had members from the Australian Institute of CPAs at people from, uh, England and Germany, um, because all countries, uh, are going through this same population shift of very, very large portions of their population, uh, reaching their senior years. And so, uh, I learned a lot about it, uh, at that point in time. And at that time I was a, you know, much younger CPA, uh, looking to be able to provide guidance to my clients. Uh, and at this point in my life, um, probably a target client for a lot of CPAs, uh, due to the age that I have, but, uh, I continue to work and I continue to have a passion of the prevention of financial elder abuse. It is one of the things that I'm very passionate about.
Chase Peckham:You mentioned earlier that that families really should create a plan, uh, for their parents or the parents should. I mean, when you think about the fact that every parent is going to believe that their kids have their best interests at heart, what do you recommend to people as their parents and, and even to their, to the parents themselves, uh, how soon should they get started in this? I mean, when do you have that? It's, which sometimes can be an uncomfortable discussion,
Mitchell Friedman:Uh, Chase It is, and it can be, and often is a very uncomfortable discussion primarily because in, in, in many families, uh, the discussion of money, uh, just in and of itself is a verboten subject. Uh, so it can be a difficult, uh, subject. Um, uh, and as I hit indicated area many, many seniors do fear, um, uh, contrary to your belief, uh, that their children are, uh, going to try to, um, uh, receive their inheritance before it is due them. And, and so in reality, um, over the years, over the decades, the law, the, the, uh, single, uh, largest segment of, of people who know the elder who commit, uh, financial elder abuse are the adult children. And, uh, in fact, uh, to this day, that's still probably the, the biggest number of people who, um, uh, commit financial elder abuse. Now, uh, surprisingly at least it was to me until I started studying it. Uh, who's coming up to be the second largest perpetrator is a spouse. And you might say a spouse, why would a spouse commit financial elder abuse against their other spouse? And the reason is actually very understandable today with people living longer. And there are a second, third, and sometimes more marriages with different children from each of those marriages, a spouse, particularly a non-property spouse may be interested in trying to divert assets to their children or their grandchildren rather than their spouses. And so we're seeing great numbers of, uh, spouses that are, uh, attempting to, uh, uh, have assets to be diverted to where they want them to be. Uh, and, and again, that's a shame, but getting back to your question about having a plan, I think, you know, at, at a particular point in time, it's a good idea whether it's family trusted family or trusted professionals, that there be a multi-disciplinary team put together, it might be a CPA and an estate planning attorney, or an, a financial advisor might be a gerontologist. It might be a clergy person, um, uh, trusted friends. And so a team of individuals can be put together, uh, some of them to take care of the physical aspects of aging, some of them to take care of the legal aspects, some to take care of the medical and gerontological aspects and some to handle the financial aspects. And, uh, if there is a trusted advisor, a CPA or financial advisor, um, uh, sometimes making them a, uh, a co-trustee, uh, with, uh, other fiduciaries, uh, like an executor or a trustee of, uh, of, uh, of, uh, trust, um, having a financial professional involved can accomplish two things. It can protect the senior as well as, um, as well as accomplish the goal of, uh, making sure that the, uh, financial assets, uh, are not exploited by those who might want to do it now, interestingly, um, when you were talking about your experience of trying to become a signatory on a financial account and how, uh, uh, troublesome it was, there's a reason for that too. It's not just the altruism of, uh, the financial institution, certain, uh, individuals and companies are now called mandated reporters. And, um, if they suspect that they're, uh, let let's say a senior is trying to withdraw money from a financial account. Um, and if the institution, uh, uh, or an individual involved, uh, feels that this withdrawal might be exploitive, um, then they have an obligation, a legal obligation to report it, uh, to the authorities. And so, uh, that's one of the reasons banks have become very, very careful at this point in time. Uh, I know from as a CPA practicing in this space, we are not mandated reporters.
Chase Peckham:It's funny. I have been accused of being a hopeless, romantic, and believing in humanity, uh, far too often. Um, and because I am that kind of a trusting person, and I think that's just the way my family was and is, um, even since my mom passed, obviously there's just the relationship that we have is, you know, the family's family to us. And I realized that things are different. And I realized, also realized in doing what we do that money or lack there of it, um, stresses can make a human being, do things they wouldn't normally do. Um, and how often is that the case when it comes to elder financial abuse within the family or from within, I would call it,
Mitchell Friedman:Yeah. Uh, there, uh, financial elder abuse is performed by anybody. Uh, it could be male, female. It could be somebody who is known by the victim or unknown by the victim. Uh, but speaking about those that are known in the family, there are lots of reasons. It happens, uh, one reason, uh, and it's a big reason, believe it or not, uh, is that the perpetrator, um, uh, is under tremendous financial stress, uh, or other emotional stress. And it might be a child. It might be a grandchild is because of people become addicted to a substance, or they may be, uh, be in gambling debt. Um, or they just may feel that, uh, if they're a caregiver, you know, the elder has so much, and I'm working so hard and I'm going to get this money someday anyway. So why don't I get a head start on it? And it's quite sad, but nevertheless, that does happen. And, um, uh, so, so that's, uh, one of the reasons, another reason, and this could be by a caregiver or a family member, they get into financial trouble and they decide to borrow the money. Why did they borrow? It's easy to borrow it. And then all of a sudden another problem comes up. And again, they have nowhere to turn. So they write another check to themselves, out of the account that they have signatory authority over. And, uh, and then it, it snowballs and it just begins to become a, uh, a recurring, uh, habit and a recurring problem. And, uh, and, and the other part of it is even if somebody is caught, the likelihood of them being prosecuted is pretty small for a variety of reasons, which I could go on for, uh, just on that subject alone, the entire, uh, time limit for our discussion today. But, um, we are seeing more, uh, uh, uh, perpetrators be prosecuted now than we did before. Uh, and that's good because, um, if, if a perpetrator gets away with it, then not only are they going to go back to the, well on this particular occasion, they may ha they may go against somebody else at, sometime in the future. I want to say one of the thing too. I know Chase Felipe, you know, it'll never happen to you. You will never be victimized. And.
Felipe Arevalo:Isn't that what we always say.
Chase Peckham:That is what my teenager says. It's not going to happen to me dad.
Mitchell Friedman:Not going to happen to you. So let me share some experiences with you, a client. He wasn't an elder. He was in his late fifties, and he was a financial executive, uh, had an MBA, very smart person. And he was a spiritual person. He hit some difficult times financially and he prayed and he prayed for a financial help. And the help came in the form of an email. And, uh, this email promised a substantial amount of money to him. This individual felt it came from the Lord. And, um, he was a once a year tax client for me. So we weren't involved in his life, a great deal at the time. Um, I get a call from him and he said to me, he tells me this story and he tells me how, uh, this answer, uh, came. And, uh, in order to, for him to get his money, he had to give them a wire, a certain amount of money, uh, to them. And it was, I dunno,$500 or something like that, which he did then, um, he related to me that a week or two later, they came back and there was a need to get additional money to them for franchise costs and administrative fees and this and that. And he gave them about another$1,500, um, a week or two later, he gets another call asking for more money. And that's when he contacted me. And, uh, when I had to say to him that he was never going to see his money again, that he had become victimized by a scam. Um, uh, at first he didn't believe me, but then he realized he was, and these kinds of things started decades ago with, if you remember the Nigerian mail scams, um, which you still can get them,
Chase Peckham:Oh Yeah.
Mitchell Friedman:But now most of them come in the form of an email or a text, and he was victimized by it. Uh, smart, educated, uh, had a degree and an advanced degree, and he was a financial executive and he was taken in a, and here's another story, a client of mine who is a very well known director and his, um, he, he was, uh, directing a film on vacation and he got received a call from his mom who lived in rural, rural Arkansas. And, uh, mom told him that he didn't have, she didn't have money for groceries. I said, how could that he knew, you know, she had plenty of money. He, uh, and, and he was always supplying her with money and she, she had her own savings. So what happened? She was sold a very high commission, variable life insurance annuity, uh, by, uh, an individual who, uh, uh, was disreputable. It was the wrong financial product, uh, for this individual at her stage in life. And, um, uh, and she gave him all her money and this was a woman in her eighties. And, uh, she just, she just wanted a little bit more independence so that she didn't have to rely on her son so much. And so in that particular case, we were very fortunate. I won't go into all of the details, but we got the transaction unwound, uh, and, uh, that worked very well. In fact, in California, I believe we have a law right now that, um, a buyer of these types of policies has by the 48 or 72 hours to be able to change their mind and unwind the transaction, uh, because there has been so much abuse in this area and, um, uh, chase, I'm sure, you know, being in the financial services space, you've seen these, these things.
Chase Peckham:Oh Yes.
Mitchell Friedman:you know, where somebody comes to you with a financial product that it never should have been, um, uh, sold to them because it just didn't fit in any way, shape or form
Chase Peckham:Felipe. I can tell you too. I mean, just us personally, the, the amount of crooked, the scams that we get on a day,
Felipe Arevalo:As a company or it's like, we're just the amount of scam. The volume of it has increased significantly. Um, just people, Hey, why don't you put this link on your website? Why don't you, uh, I wrote an article or I was looking through your articles and I noticed this article and you'd look at it. And like, that was like 10 years ago. I wrote that, no, one's looking through the blog that far down the list.
Chase Peckham:That's right.
Felipe Arevalo:You know, and, and, or, or getting an email from supposedly like, uh, some higher up in the company saying, Hey, don't tell anybody, but I'm really trying to surprise the staff. Why don't you text me at this number and include your name, and then, um, I'll let you know how you can help me out so I can surprise the whole staff.
Chase Peckham:Yeah. And we really see it here in San Diego. I mean, besides the senior community or elderly community, we see it a huge amount in the military community, uh, being that we're a huge Navy and Marine town. Uh, it's constant,
Mitchell Friedman:But Hey, but here's how, you know, the first of all the perpetrators, not just against seniors, but against everybody, the perpetrators are always one step ahead. And so, uh, uh, cyber security and, uh, protection is always trailing behind because, uh, we're trying to fix things that have already happened. And I said, you can't be victim. You know, you're not going to be victimized. There's nobody more careful than I am. And chase, you indicated you're a trusting person. I am not. I, to me, somebody has to prove that they're honest, not prove that they're dishonest. Well, one day, uh, after heading down to your, uh, uh, territory, this was some years ago, uh, I was traveling on the 73 freeway th the, the toll road. And at that time we didn't have an account. Um, and so we had to, uh, pay our toll on the internet, uh, within a certain number of days, I told my wife to pay it. Um, about two days later, I received an email saying that I had to pay the toll, uh, that wasn't paid, uh, and that I should click on this. Link, uh, so I clicked on the link and the minute I clicked, I said, why did I do that? And, um, I then called my wife and I said, did you pay the toll? And she said, yes. So I immediately talked to my it people. And I said, I think I clicked on a bad link. And somebody, uh, could plant a virus or otherwise take over my account. And, uh, within minutes we were searching through. And in fact, I clicked on a bad link. Uh, and they w they were planting. I forget what the, what the terms.
Chase Peckham:Malwares
Mitchell Friedman:Yeah. Malware would be all encompassing. And we were able to extricate it before anything happened. Uh, but as careful as I am, I'm sure that email went to 500,000 or a million people. And all it took was the one or two or five people who happened to have been on that freeway a couple of days before,
Chase Peckham:Right.
Mitchell Friedman:And they could get sucked in by it. And, and so, uh, uh, it's so difficult as smart as anyone is, it's so difficult to fully protect yourself from the possibility of, uh, being exploited or scammed or, uh, uh, taken advantage of, uh, that I think everybody should feel as if they can very much be victimized, uh, despite their best efforts.
Felipe Arevalo:And it's so easy to send so many emails. Uh, I mean, you could send thousands with just the click of a button, so it allows them to, like, you mentioned, send it out to the masses and maybe one of them did go on that freeway, uh, during that time period,
Mitchell Friedman:the shotgun approach. Felipe.
Felipe Arevalo:Right? Yeah. And it's something where, you know, the other thing I get so many of his phone calls, the robo calls and, and they vary from the ones where you listened to. And you're like, you didn't even put an effort to very elaborate ones where you're like, Oh, wow. If I didn't know better, now this might get my attention. Um, you know, and.
Mitchell Friedman:How many times a day do you get a call about your, uh, your expiring car warranty?
Felipe Arevalo:Oh, all the time.
Chase Peckham:Every day, sometimes two and three hours a day, right? Yeah.
Felipe Arevalo:Car warranties, or telling me I'm being sued by the IRS or something,
Mitchell Friedman:You know, uh, Felipe And that is also an increasing, um, uh, form of abuse. That's occurring by, uh, people who are strangers to the victim. Um, and that is making believe there from the internal revenue service or from the state taxing authorities, uh, or, uh, from social security. Uh, and, uh, again, trying to, uh, scare people saying that the police, uh, are on their way, unless, unless they send a Bitcoin, uh, uh, immediately or, uh, uh, or some other form of electronic payment, uh, this happens with great frequency as well.
Chase Peckham:Before we let you go, I want to ask this because it goes the other way as well. What have you been working with somebody for 40 years? And they're getting to the point where they're going to retire and yet your finances, your life is still ongoing. How do you work with the transition of a professional that you've been working with for so long that you trust with everything? And now they're thinking about retirement or they're discussing, how do you go about that transition, uh, to somebody else handling your affairs?
Mitchell Friedman:Uh, wow. That's a great question. Um, and, you know, I, I'm getting kind of long in the tooth myself, but I plan to be taken out on a gurney. I'm not, I'm not planning to retire. And I tell my clients that, um, I've only had, uh, fortunately, maybe perhaps over the years, one or two clients who actually pose the question to me, are you planning to retire? Are you going to sell your business? Are you going to do something? And, um, my answer to them is, uh, that I don't plan to retire, but, you know, anything can happen. I could become disabled or, uh, or I could pass away prematurely. Um, but I'm very fortunate that I've had people who've worked in my firm for many years, the person who's my right hand in the, uh, financial planning and, um, uh, uh, an investment area has been with me for more than 15 years. And it's my stepson. Uh, the head of my tax department has been with me for over 30 years. And these are individuals who, um, my clients have relationships with. Um, they, my clients know that they are proxies for me now, hopefully, uh, an elderly person is aligned in a firm that, um, uh, should the advisor decide for whatever reason not to work or represent them anymore, that the firm has a plan in place. And perhaps has younger advisors who are already knowledgeable, uh, about the accounts and about the individual's life. Um, that that could be an important conversation to have, um, uh, very often, particularly with the very, very large financial financial institutions. They just substitute somebody in. Uh, but that doesn't necessarily mean that, uh, that individual is going to be, uh, compatible, uh, with the elderly individual, um, uh, from a personality perspective. And so there might not be trust there. Um, uh, but I think it is important for anybody, whether it is the, uh, the aging individual or the spouses, um, or the adult children, if they are involved in their lives to have trust, uh, and confidence, uh, that the representatives, the professional representatives, whoever they are, financial tax legal, uh, whoever that they have, their clients, uh, their, their family members, uh, best interests at heart. Um, I know we do it. I like to think that most professionals, uh, operate the same way, but whether or not, um, an individual is in fact compatible with somebody after being, uh, um, after working with one person for decades, uh, I guess at the end of the day it's trial and error.
Chase Peckham:Yeah. I mean, I would think that that's just the relationships that you have throughout your life, uh, that, that you're going to, there's going to, there's going to be change. There's going to be turnover. Uh, and you just got to keep your eyes open, uh, right. And, and even more, not just your eyes, your ears with all our listeners, Felipe. And I talk about it all the time, because people will say, well, I can't afford a financial professional or a CPA or somebody like that. And, and I, we always say you can't afford not to, uh, have somebody that's a professional to handle your affairs in whatever situation that might be, because whatever, you know, monthly obligation, you feel like you have towards that, that, that individual, that's going to save you tons of money down the road, uh, because they do this for a living and they know what they're, and if you have somebody that really is good. And has your, as you mentioned, has your best interest at heart, uh, you're going to sleep better at night, knowing that you're taking care of, because there's just so much to life. Life's so complicated already with just the day-to-day decisions that we have to make. Uh, when we get to that point in our life, having somebody that feels like they they're there with you, uh, it is just that much, that much better, uh,
Mitchell Friedman:True. That's true. Chase. And, and one of the questions I think it's important to ask, uh, is, uh, particularly with a financial advisor is to ask, are you a fiduciary? Do you hold yourself out to be a fiduciary? And, you know, that's, that's a legal term. Some listeners may not know what that is, but a fiduciary must always act in the best interest of her client. They must, whereas somebody who doesn't act as a fiduciary only has to, uh, make recommendations that our recommendations are appropriate, not necessarily in the best interest. So if I make a recommendation to a client, uh, and we are feeling lonely, uh, if I make a recommendation, um, it's not because I'm going to get a higher fee or a higher commission, but somebody else could sell a product. If they're not a fiduciary can sell a product with a high commission. And as long as it's an appropriate product, regardless of the cost, they have fulfilled their legal obligation. So having a professional who holds out, uh, and adheres to being a fiduciary, uh, is to me, um, uh, something that anybody who is looking for a, uh, financial professional should ask that question. Uh, that doesn't mean that somebody who doesn't hold out to that standard, uh, uh, is going to do something wrong, but at least, at least the client is making a, um, uh, an informed decision, uh, about it. And, um, uh, that may be the parting shot.
Chase Peckham:Yeah, it definitely is. I guess, lastly, if somebody does find that they are or think they are being taken advantage of, uh, in some way, or you're a child or an adult child of somebody that you feel is where should they go, what should they do?
Felipe Arevalo:Are there support.
Mitchell Friedman:Well, these are, these are not for profit organizations that will help, uh, uh, elders, uh, if they find themselves in trouble. Um, uh, and some of these organizations, they have, uh, the acronym, fast financial abuse specialist teams, and, uh, they are all over the country now. And they are multidisciplinary teams that, that investigate, uh, and try to mitigate and even recovered damages, uh, from victims of financial elder abuse and these teams, um, uh, they have people from law enforcement, people from medicine, uh, psychologists, financial people, attorneys, CPAs, uh, they have all of these specialist teams. In fact, as I recall, orange County, California was the first community to develop a financial abuse specialist team. And, uh, yeah, now you'll find them pretty much all over the country. And they are a resource that, um, uh, an individual or a family could go to and they will, uh, help to prosecute, uh, claims, unfortunately, all too often. Um, those who perpetrate the crimes don't have the money. The reason they're taking the money is because they are spending it for whatever reason. So even if you get a conviction, um, it, it may not do anything except mitigate future, uh, uh, losses rather than, uh, result in a recovery of financial assets. You told the story of the director, his mother was taking, uh, taken advantage of the fact that she got it reversed is, is unreal. I mean, not that chances of that happening are pretty slim. I would imagine most of the time, you know, there's not a lot you can do
Speaker 3:Well in all honesty, the way we did it was this director was very well known. And when I confronted the sales organization, um, I went above the advisors, uh, the insurance sales person's head. I went directly to the CEO of the company, um, and started without threatening talking about who this, uh, policy holders fo, uh, son was, and that he had a very powerful public relations team. Uh, and, uh, need I say more.
Chase Peckham:No you don't.
Mitchell Friedman:They were able to do it, and that wasn't because I was smart. It was because in this particular case, we were fortunate and lucky,
Chase Peckham:Well, I can't thank you enough Felipe. And I, you know, we have some, we have great experts and financial, uh, professionals on this podcast, and this is, uh, a topic that we've wanted to get to for a long time. And I can't thank you enough for taking the time to, to do, to spend your time with us.
Speaker 3:It's been my pleasure. Thank you, Jace. Thank you, Felipe.
Speaker 2:Thank you.