Bank fees have been around forever and are costly to all of us. However overdraft fees have become all too much of the norm over the last decade. Banks seem to be relying on overdraft and non-sufficient funds (NSF) revenue to maintain their high-profit margins, according to a new December 2021 report from the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB). Specifically, the U.S. financial watchdog agency found that roughly two-thirds of bank profits come from NSF and overdraft fees. Well it seems that report has made a few banks take action and get rid of their overdraft fees. The Talk Wealth To Me Crew discuss the the implications of this report and the subsequent moves by at least one major bank.
Bank fees have been around forever and are costly to all of us. However overdraft fees have become all too much of the norm over the last decade. Banks seem to be relying on overdraft and non-sufficient funds (NSF) revenue to maintain their high-profit margins, according to a new December 2021 report from the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB). Specifically, the U.S. financial watchdog agency found that roughly two-thirds of bank profits come from NSF and overdraft fees. Well it seems that report has made a few banks take action and get rid of their overdraft fees. The Talk Wealth To Me Crew discuss the the implications of this report and the subsequent moves by at least one major bank.
Welcome to Talk Wealth to Me, a safespace podcast, where we chat about anything and everything related to personal finance, The information contained in the podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It does not constitute as accounting, legal tax or other professional advice.
Chase Peckham:It's so interesting that this came out at the time of year, that it did Katie. And when I read your blog, um, I was like, you gotta be kidding. I didn't see this. How did this happen? You must have been on top of this pretty quick.
Katie Utterback:Yeah. It came out December 1st. And I think I turned it around like the next day, or I forget all the days are blurring.
Felipe Arevalo:It's big news in the personal finance world,
Chase Peckham:It's a huge, it's a huge news.
Katie Utterback:Yeah. And it was actually piggybacked by huge news from Capital One who tried to get ahead of the news by announcing their own end to NSF fees.
Chase Peckham:Oh, you don't think that was good for branding?
Katie Utterback:<laugh> so good.
Chase Peckham:What's in your wallet.<laugh>.
Felipe Arevalo:Exactly.
Chase Peckham:And what's not ours at this point.<laugh>, it's so true though, because NSF funds and, and let's take this back. I mean, uh, you know, fees have been around forever, especially penalty fees. Um, and before 2008 or prior to the 2008 and the crash, and then there was all that, um,
Felipe Arevalo:New legislation.
Chase Peckham:The legislation that went through the credit card act of 2010 or 2000, I can't remember. Maybe it was 2009.
Katie Utterback:Dodd-Frank.
Chase Peckham:Dodd-Frank, correct.
Katie Utterback:Yeah.
Chase Peckham:Um, there was they the CFPB and, and they just made all kinds of legislation and they really tightened down the screws on NSF fees and overdraft fees and, um, over, um, over your credit line fees. And they really took the, uh, competition out of it, which is really interesting considering what the C P F B has talked about. The fact that competition has gone away from banking, right? Because they did, they kind of drew the line that the, the fees could only they'd be, uh, limited to 40 to$45. I don't remember exactly what it is, but everybody, they, they had to cap it. So what does everybody do? They cap it.
Felipe Arevalo:Cap it at the top.
Chase Peckham:At the top, right? They might as well get what they can, instead of people saying come to our bank, we don't have fees, or we have, we top it$25 overdraft fees, you know? So there was competition in trying to get people in marketing to get people into their banks. Remember Felipe, when that came out, we talked about the fact that that was going to be an issue that that was gonna take competition out of the banking system when it came to those types of fees. And yet here, here we are, which is amazing.
Felipe Arevalo:And something, Katie, as I was reading your, your blog, just the numbers of it, I knew it was a lot of their revenue, but, you know, with the CFPBP saying that they found that roughly two thirds of the bank's profit come from the NSF and overdraft fees, it was just, I knew it was bad. I didn't realize it was that bad. That much of their revenue comes from those late fees. And I tell college kids all the time, how do the banks credit card companies make money? It's those fees. It's those late fees on top of the interest. It's really those fees that college students tend to get<laugh>
Katie Utterback:Yeah. So you, if you've ever used an ATM and you have to pay$2.50$3 just to use the ATM.
Chase Peckham:Go to Vegas and it's like 15.
Katie Utterback:Oh my God.
Chase Peckham:In a, in a casino<laugh>.
Katie Utterback:So just to like further illustrate just how much banks we're earning from the NSF and overdraft fees, the amount of money that they earn from ATM fees is not even to what they were earning from the NSF overdraft.
Chase Peckham:That's crazy.
Katie Utterback:And think about how many people use ATM fees and end up paying that fee because they have to, or.
Chase Peckham:Convenience.
Katie Utterback:Convenience. Yeah. So that's kind of why this news came out and just to kind of clarify the, so the CFPB is the consumer financial protection bureau, and they are very much similar to like the federal trade commission, the FTC, where they're not ones going out and making laws, but what they do is they come up with rules and they try to enforce it. So what they did with this research that they published on December 1st was they came out and said, we're creating a, a rule where we don't want this kind of predatory fee policies to continue. So basically what they're saying is that these fees are essentially equivalent to payday loans because you might be charged$34 for, you bought a water bottle for a dollar, right? And you didn't have the money. So now you're paying$35 as soon as you put money in the bank's taking that money out. So even if it's not even a full day that you've borrowed that$35, it's almost like 10000% interest.
Chase Peckham:and it's taking advantage. Like it always has. It's taking advantage of low income households.
Felipe Arevalo:I was gonna say, Sarah's the one who actually heard about.
Chase Peckham:Disproportionate.
Felipe Arevalo:before me. And, and she was like, ah, now I'm educating you. Um, but it was something where I was telling her, I was like, this affects that lower level. That person who's already struggling so much more than it will. The people who can't like, these are people who, there's a reason that overdrafting their accounts and it's not because that's how they choose to, like, that's not always by chance.
Chase Peckham:It's not because they're just not paying attention. A lot of it,
Felipe Arevalo:They just don't have the money.
Chase Peckham:Right.
Felipe Arevalo:And, and there's a reason that they have overdraft fees. And it's the reason that, you know, if someone had a bunch of money in their account, they're never gonna get an overdraft fee because they're not gonna encounter that problem. It's the people living paycheck to paycheck. It's the people who are struggling to make ends meet. And those are the people who are getting hit with all the fees. So it's just crazy that the banks are making such a big part of their profit off the people who are already struggling
Chase Peckham:Yeah. And it kind,
Katie Utterback:I think that was, that was even cited in the CFPB's research, which is like 10% of consumers with bank accounts were the ones paying a like 80% of that overdrafts, NSF fee. So it's just a small portion of people, but those people are trapped this like cycle of overdraft fees and then poverty. And then it almost turns into like generational poverty.
Chase Peckham:A lot of times they don't even know it's happening. What happened? I don't know, you're still here. Oh, oh, I know it happened. Sorry about that.<laugh> I couldn't hear myself because my thing fell off the table.
Felipe Arevalo:Gotcha.
Chase Peckham:Technology at its finest,
Felipe Arevalo:But it's something when we do budgets with, with, you know, military families that I do a lot of budgets with and, and you see, like, we do the soft credit pool and we're looking, it's like, what's this little thing here. Oh, that's my overdraft protection from credit union that I'm not gonna name. And, and it's something where it's like, what do you mean? I was like, well, yeah, they, it it's overdraft. So they'll let me go over my account and then I'll just pay it off. And when I get paid, they'll take the money. And it's like, now you're in a cycle though, because now you're gonna be that amount short next month. So what's gonna happen is you're gonna be back into this. And, and it's something where if those fees are cycling and it just makes it harder to catch up and harder to move out of that cycle. And I think that's part of the reason that you see those lower income families go into the unbanked category.
Chase Peckham:Yes.
Felipe Arevalo:Because it's just, you know, you might say, well, now you're paying 3% to cash your check. Yeah. But they're, they see those fees accumulating over time that it just kind of, they enter in a little bit of a despair where they decide, you know, what I'm done dealing with this bank.
Chase Peckham:And they don't trust the system. And, and that's, it comes down to not trusting, uh, the, the, where they might see it as government or the man or whatever it might be. They just say I've been taken advantage of, and I'm not gonna do it anymore. And that's a problem. And it's not, that's how you just, you hit something on the head there, Felipe. We talk to people, they just figure that this is the way it is that this is just the, the cost of doing business with a bank that I'm just gonna pay this every month. And that's crazy that it's ridiculous that oh, and okay know, I'm late. And they cuz they don't know, they, it just money gets put in the bank and then it gets taken out electronically. So it's not like they're physically having to write a check to the bank and saying, here's the extra money I owe you. Like they would with a credit what's terrible.
Katie Utterback:And sometimes you don't even know like what your other options are. I'll just share. I've worked as a freelance writer before, which meant I didn't have like a steady paycheck coming in, which meant I couldn't sign up for the automatic payroll deposit.
Chase Peckham:Right.
Katie Utterback:And if you don't have an automatic payroll that a lot of times banks wanna charge you five, 10 plus a month just to have a checking account or a savings account. And then they put minimums in there. So you have to have at least$150 in, plus you're paying$10 for that account. And if you fall below that minimum or you know, you didn't pay the fee, then you it's
Chase Peckham:And they charge you again, which makes zero sense.
Katie Utterback:And so I've been in that situation before, like I, I paid to have a checking account because I didn't know what my other options were.
Chase Peckham:That's terrible.
Katie Utterback:And so now you see like these online companies, these online banks coming out and trying to say like, okay, we're not gonna charge you for having an account. We're not gonna charge you for like an overdraft or insufficient funds, but there's still like exceptions for that rule. So even with capital one capital, one announced on the heels of that CFPB news.
Chase Peckham:Jumping out ahead.
Katie Utterback:Yeah. We're gonna offer free overdraft protections to all of our customers starting in 2022. Um, but then they say, actually you can opt out and you have to have automatic payroll deposit in order to get this. So you can see like there's still the, the people who are most hurt by this, the people that were.
Felipe Arevalo:Still get affected.
Katie Utterback:Yeah. It's still gonna affect them. So you can see why, like the CFPB said, like, we're still gonna be tracking all of this. We're still gonna be doing everything in our power to make it more affordable just to bank.
Chase Peckham:Well, and it makes sense for the banks that want them to do direct deposit, because that means that there's less employees that they have to have at their branches to physically take money when it's deposited. So, you know, like everything else, I would imagine like us working from home now, the banking system is trying to be as automated as possible. Right. Because that saves money. Um, you lose the personal aspect of it. Um, I used to know my teller for years and I love to go see her every once in a while and say, hello, put my money in the bank. But that personal side is really not there anymore.
Katie Utterback:Mm-hmm<affirmative> well, I think too, I, I mean, just calling a spade, a spade banks also have shareholders.
Chase Peckham:Yes they do.
Katie Utterback:They've been, you know, they've had record profits that they've been able to disperse to their shareholders and that's, I mean, this is just how it is. Corporations have a responsibility to their shareholders to get the most profit for their shareholders. And that's part of what they're also trying to do.
Chase Peckham:And I don't right. And I, I, I don't, uh, but moan them for doing that. I, as far as, you know, trying to make as most profits as they can, but to a point of where it's rational and where it's the ethical to those that they serve. Um,
Katie Utterback:Yeah,
Chase Peckham:Because there's plenty of money to go around. It doesn't have to be where you're sucking the less fortunate, dry.
Katie Utterback:Right. And so in 2019, 15. 47 billion in revenue collected just from overdraft NSF fees, I think that's, you know, the, what you're talking about. Exactly. Chase.
Chase Peckham:Yes.
Katie Utterback:To your point.
Chase Peckham:Yes, It is. And, and, you know, I don't care what side of the aisle you are on politically. I mean, there is a human element to this. I mean, I'll just say it I'm Republican. I fiscally Republican, but that doesn't mean, I believe that you'd jump on everybody or, or step on people to make the extra cent and a half or whatever it is that you're gonna bring in that there is an ethical part part of doing business. And there should be, uh, because we all prosper more if we're all doing better. Uh, I, I truly believe that now the one percenters, um, and I'm not calling every, because there are really, really, really great one percenters, but there are people that just, I, you know, I, I gotta keep the foot on my foot on the pedal and keep going. Um, and that's not necessarily for the greater good, I'm not saying that we should disperse everything out and everything is equal. I'm not saying that at all. In fact, not even close, but I do believe that there is a way that we can make these practices, um, in doing business that is fair and efficient for all. It just seems like our lower income people, we keep seeing it over and over and over again, all the fees, all the extra stuff, it just keeps preying on that demo, those demographics and that, how are we gonna help them get out of it and, and be a part of the, uh, really productive part of our economy. If we keep draining them in those ways, it doesn't make sense. Or, I mean, we're not in any difference, but the difference between you, me, we act we're on top of it. And we're making enough to where it's the insufficient funds isn't coming into play as much. It might because we make a mistake every once in a while. Right. But it's not a chronic thing.
Katie Utterback:Right. And that's actually something that the CFPB was talking about was that overdraft protection actually was born out of the era when we used paper checks to pay for things. So sometimes the check would hit your bank account at an inopportune time.
Felipe Arevalo:Wrong time.
Katie Utterback:And if it, where, you know, you were making a payment for something, but your paycheck didn't hit quite yet, you could overdraft. And so that's really where it was born out of. And now with debit cards and online banking, and being able to check your balance or transfer money from savings and checking.
Felipe Arevalo:Auto payments.
Katie Utterback:On your mobile, the need for that has really shifted. Cuz that was part of it. You had a grace period back in the day,
Chase Peckham:Right.
Katie Utterback:Of like a day or two where you could move money over.
Chase Peckham:Yep, absolutely. And you know, transfer fees were a big thing for a long time. And I know that, you know, when we were originally had our bank accounts, you, it wasn't, you couldn't transfer for free. There was a like$2 fee. Every time you did that now with online banking, that's what they're selling, they're selling ease. And that you can move it so very easily and even in between other institutions. Uh, so even that has gone away, but who does that help? That's those of us that are a little bit more fortunate than know how to use that and, and have that, uh, technology that we use to move those things around.
Katie Utterback:Yeah. And it's interesting too, when you're talking about, you know, the one percenters and how there are some that are very generous, but there are some that are still kind of operating in scarcity mindset. They don't think that they have enough. Right.
Chase Peckham:Wow. We could get into a mental side of this<laugh>.
Katie Utterback:I was just listening To a podcast.
Chase Peckham:Yeah. And,
Katie Utterback:From Rohit and he was interviewing this couple where they have multiple million dollars. Like he, I think he earns 10 million a year, just himself, alone. And they share a Netflix password. Their yard is just kind of a disaster because he doesn't wanna spend any money on landscaping. So his wife now is really frustrated because she just realized how much money they're actually earning how much money they have. She just learned their net worth. I think their net worth was like 25 million something. So it's, it's a lot. And he's very cheap for a lack,
Chase Peckham:Very frugal,
Katie Utterback:of a better word, very frugal<laugh>. So we're just kind of, the whole podcast was kind of talking about how he's very much so still in this scarcity mindset, he doesn't think that he has enough and how there is this kind of trend of people in the FIRE movement who are getting older and they have like millions of dollars and no idea how they're gonna spend it all. Cuz they're still thinking that they
Chase Peckham:They can't change the frame of mind. So what they were reaching for in the first place, doesn't go away naturally. Right?
Katie Utterback:Yeah.
Chase Peckham:It's got, so they're gonna live that way. They're trying to retire early and then enjoy the latter years of their life or they're even the, you know, middle years of their life. And yet they're still in that same mode. So they're retiring early, but they're still not doing anything.
Felipe Arevalo:Now they can't get back to spending. Right.
Chase Peckham:So.
Felipe Arevalo:So what was the benefit?
Chase Peckham:What Do you do? Right?
Katie Utterback:The moral of story is you have to change your money, mindset,
Chase Peckham:Cost benefit analysis, literally<laugh>
Katie Utterback:Otherwise you're gonna forever be stuck. Like if, how you feel about money today is not good and you just continue to rack up money, but you never work on that relationship. Even when you have it. It's it's not gonna feel good.
Felipe Arevalo:It's gonna continue right.
Katie Utterback:Yeah.
Felipe Arevalo:And it's something where at some point, you know, the idea behind the FIRE movement is that they will get to retire early. But if they're not enjoying it, then what was the point of saving up all the money to begin with?
Chase Peckham:Right. If you're not reaping the benefits of the hard work, what was the hard work for?
Felipe Arevalo:Right.
Chase Peckham:It doesn't make sense to me. I mean, that's why goal setting is so important. Right. But at some point because you you're, the goal is you wanna reach the goal to enjoy it. But some people just aren't that, that way, it it's very, very interesting how that goes. And it goes the other way too, by the way, it goes with the people that, that are const that don't have that, that have grown up in poverty or grown up where they're paycheck to paycheck. That's what they've known for so long that the idea of going out and not spending, because they've never had the opportunity to spend, it can go the other way, where they just blow everything they have, anytime they have it.
Katie Utterback:Oh yeah. Like the tall poppy syndrome. Why, why better improve your situation if you don't have to,
Chase Peckham:Right.
Katie Utterback:Or if you can figure it out, if you're comfortable
Felipe Arevalo:Or like the stories you hear about sports athletes or celebrities who made millions, but still found a way to spend the millions and still end up broke after they've made, you know, millions of dollars over the course of their career,
Chase Peckham:That's actually an epidemic that mindset in certain sports, where are these? Yeah. Unfortunately, and, and unfortunately it mostly comes from, uh, individuals who were brought up with nothing and they, they made it through college. They made it into the professional sports. They made a ton, their career ends. And they spent at such a rapid pace and lived such a LA uh, a, a, such a lavish life style that then all of a sudden it was gone and not to mention, you know, the entourages that they're taking care of and their families and all the handouts that come with that. Uh, it's, it's pretty crazy, pretty crazy.
Felipe Arevalo:It's crazy. So Katie, do you see it being a shift where more people see this big bank Capital One, doing that and saying, Hey, if we don't hop a board, we might lose people to Capital One. And maybe we need to like, say, Hey, look at us over here. We're also doing this. Or do you see it just kind of being Capital One, being that one big outlier where everybody looks at'em and says, see what happens?
Katie Utterback:Well, I think there's gonna be more banks doing things because even before all of this news, there were banks that were trying to.
Chase Peckham:Compete.
Katie Utterback:lower the cost. Yeah.
Chase Peckham:Right.
Katie Utterback:They were trying to lower the cost of the fees, get rid of fees. Um, you saw like Ally Bank was a huge one, like an online digital bank that was really trying to be forward thinking, no fees make this accessible to everyone. And, uh, especially the unbanked, right. That's a huge market that the banks are trying to go after. um, cuz truthfully, those of us who are already with
Chase Peckham:Subprime to speak,
Katie Utterback:Right, we there's a loyalty that you get, you start to like your bank.
Chase Peckham:mm-hmm<affirmative>.
Katie Utterback:Or a credit union. And the problem that the CFPB saw was that even the smaller banks, the credit unions had raised their fees to match the big banks. So I think that you're gonna start to see credit unions and smaller banks maybe work together to see what they could do to lower fees and to make access easier. But I think like Capital One's news, there's always gonna be that asterisk. It's gonna be, you still have to be a good candidate in order to really benefit from all of these fees and things, which is, I think your credit score is gonna start to play more of a role in all of this. Because the other thing that the CFPB wants to see in all of this is the ability to just switch banks, like with a click of a button and not have all these differences and fees and like access and all of that. They really wanna just make clean access across the board no matter Where you are.
Chase Peckham:That's really Ty. That's interesting considering.
Felipe Arevalo:Reduces competition even more.
Chase Peckham:That typically unbanked don't our, are credit shadows, you know, they, they don't have credit because they've very reason is they're unbanked and they can't get credit in the first place. So, and you, so you using credit scores and that kind of stuff could be very difficult to assess don't you think?
Katie Utterback:I think, but I think.
Chase Peckham:Unless the, the way we do credit scores or the way we look at at, at rating, uh, financially changes dramatically,
Katie Utterback:I think it's already changing. I mean, we saw like in the last couple years, Experian is a great example. One where they're trying to give you credit for paying Netflix.
Chase Peckham:Yep Experian boost,
Katie Utterback:Even renting. Right. They're trying to make sure cuz I actually signed up for that program. And so for a couple months, while I was renting, that was added to my credit score and it actually did make a difference
Chase Peckham:On your Experian credit score though, right? Yes. So I mean that's the, that, that's the problem who's looking at it. So we may feel good about it, but who is actually is our other, our businesses that are wanting our business. Are they, are they looking at that? Cause that's what matters. I mean, you can't go.
Felipe Arevalo:If you want to buy a car.
Chase Peckham:Hey Mr. Chevy dealer, can you please look at my experien boost number? It's awesome. You know?
Katie Utterback:Yeah. Like let's just ignore these other two. You
Chase Peckham:Those other things, let's not look at those. Right? Exactly.<laugh>
Felipe Arevalo:Because you might walk in and they might use TransUnion exclusively and right. So then it didn't really help in that case. So it's just a hit and miss and people are like you buying a house, you know, they're looking at a everything at all of them.
Chase Peckham:Well, Mr. Peckham I'm sorry to say that we can't loan you on this car, but did you look at my Experian boost number?<laugh> it was awesome.
Felipe Arevalo:It's the same thing we see on social media.
Chase Peckham:No, seriously. Can you look it up please?
Felipe Arevalo:Yeah. It's the same thing we see on social media where you see it, every popup every so often where people walk in with like their vantage score or their free credit karma credit score. And then they're so surprised when they go into a car dealership or a lender and the score that they're given there doesn't quite match up to the vantage score or the credit karma or the wherever.
Chase Peckham:Especially it's Right. And it's typically an auto type score. So, you know,
Felipe Arevalo:And it's not apples to apples. So then they're sitting there like, wait a minute, what happened? I was in that tier and then it isn't and then you see it on, on social media start trending every once in a while.
Chase Peckham:Well, since capital one is the one, you know, the biggest dog to do this. And I don't mean dog in a<laugh> in a negative way. I just mean, you know, like top one of the dogs, uh, are we gonna see bank of America and the, the chase banks of the world follow suit? You think?
Katie Utterback:Well, I think JP Morgan Chase already did something where they're trying to lower their fees and they did this like a year or so ago. So they actually have been pushing back on the CFPB news saying this is, is not quite accurate from where we're sitting, we're doing everything in our power to try to lower these fees. Um, but it's, and this is kind of where you have to almost do your own research and figure out what works for you. This is where the person really comes into personal finance. If you think that a bank's fees are unreasonable or too high for how you're going to use that bank, try to find something else.
Chase Peckham:Well, that is the, exactly what we were kind of talking about at the very beginning. And what we were worried about in 2010 is competition is a good thing. And we, as a free commerce have the right to leave. If we don't like the way they do business,
Felipe Arevalo:But how many times do we talk to people?
Chase Peckham:So they're going to evolve. They will evolve if too many people leave.
Felipe Arevalo:But how many times do we talk to people, especially students I'm like, where do you bank? Or what do you have? Do you like'em oh, I can't stand'em I hate it. And it's like,
Chase Peckham:Why don't you switch? Right?
Felipe Arevalo:Why did you pick this one? Well, that's where my parents banked. That's where my brother banked that that's the one that was on the corner, you know? And, and it is just like, sometimes change is tough. No one likes change.
Chase Peckham:Yes. And that's the thing.
Felipe Arevalo:They don't want, you know, the, the idea of, oh no, I'm at the new bank accounts. I'm gonna have to get new checks. Do I, do I get free checks? Do I not? Do I get new debit card?
Chase Peckham:Am I really gonna understand what they're selling me?
Felipe Arevalo:Change my card on Netflix. Do I gotta, you know, and then it's just like, there's a lot, it's a process changing a bank. If you change from one bank to another, it's gonna take a little bit of time and effort on your.
Chase Peckham:And the mindset might Be, well, all banks are the same. I mean, they can write whatever they want, but they're all gonna take advantage of me anyway.
Felipe Arevalo:Right. so.
Chase Peckham:Which is not necessarily true.
Felipe Arevalo:Yeah. There's just the change element that people want to try and avoid.
Katie Utterback:Yeah. And so I, for me personally, I found that a credit union works best for my needs, but I've also worked with some of the bigger banks and truthfully, like I said, I was a freelancer, so it wasn't great.<laugh> for me.
Chase Peckham:Right.
Katie Utterback:But at the same time, I also now live in a neighborhood where access to credit union ATMs is few and far between. So it actually would make more sense for me now to open an account with a more traditional bank. It's just like, you know,
Chase Peckham:yeah.
Katie Utterback:To just weigh it for yourself.
Chase Peckham:Yeah. And, and there's so many different options within each institution that could fit for you. So.
Katie Utterback:mm-hmm,<affirmative>,
Chase Peckham:it's not one checking account fits all. There's different types of checking accounts for the different type of consumer. It's just a matter of educating yourself enough to go check it out. Um, and that's why, again, Felipe, I think that's exactly why people don't leave is because they don't wanna go through that
Felipe Arevalo:Research to try and find a new one and trying to, yeah, it's just,<laugh> that cold is getting you.
Katie Utterback:It's worth it though. If you, yes, it's a pain to switch everything, but if you're gonna be able to save yourself$30 a month, that's gonna add up. Or if you're not gonna have to worry about a fee or something, think about how much that stress would cost you or.
Felipe Arevalo:Absolutely. Yeah. It's it could be a big difference. And maybe after a few times where you don't hit get hit with that fee, then maybe it's created a shift where you've moved out of that mentality or that cycle just in general. And it doesn't did a full like paradigm shift where all of a sudden you're not getting the fee because you're not running outta money.
Katie Utterback:Mm-hmm<affirmative>.
Felipe Arevalo:because you were able to catch up and you were able to build that little bit of a breathing room every single time. So that it's not just that the fee's not there, but that you wouldn't have been getting it in the first place, cuz it's just sometimes hard to play catch up. And then it's important once you've caught up, then maybe you avoid it going forward or you avoid falling into that situation cuz it's an extra$30 every time or$35 or whatever it is. And it could be for some multiple fees multiple times a month.
Katie Utterback:Yes. And so you can always sit down with someone. Like I sat down with somebody at the credit union and she explained to me, okay, this is how much, you know, is required to be on your account. This is how much it costs. You open an account. And even with, you know, checks, she was, Hey, I don't think that you're gonna want to order checks because most people just don't use them. However, I would recommend, you know, buying the$2 printout, just one page of checks. So you get it for your payroll, right? So there's when you talk to somebody and you're asking questions, you might be able to find ways to save yourself money as well.
Felipe Arevalo:Absolutely.
Chase Peckham:<Cough> Were you guys waiting on me to cough or what
Speaker 5:<laugh>
Chase Peckham:Sorry.
Felipe Arevalo:It's all right.
Chase Peckham:Wow.
Katie Utterback:No, I just, I think I'm just kind of sitting soaking at all this information cuz it, it truthfully shocked me when I got the press release from the CFPB saying that this rule had come out and I was even more shocked.<laugh> when like minutes later I get the Capital One statement saying, you know, yeah. We believe that a, a banking account is a cornerstone to everybody's financial lives. You need to have access to it. So if that means we have to strip these fees out, we'll do that.
Felipe Arevalo:Right.
Katie Utterback:I just did not see that coming, But that, that's a really interesting point though. Katie, I think it's, I mean, I, I still think more banks are gonna jump onto it and more banks are gonna see that Capital One did it. And like how can we word it so that we look, we come out looking like a good guy too, but still collect the fees kind of on down low. Yes exactly, how we word this<laugh>.
Chase Peckham:Yeah, I mean,
Felipe Arevalo:Yeah, how can we also make an announcement? Look at us. We also did. Yeah.
Chase Peckham:There will be a fine print, right? There will be something so
Felipe Arevalo:As with so many things.
Chase Peckham:A hundred percent. Well, at least I think it's going in the right direction. I mean, I'm always, I'm always afraid of government watch dogs getting a little too into it. So there isn't competition. Um, but at the same time, I think by just making this public, by putting it out there and having the banks have to look in the mirror and, and face the public opinion, that's gonna make decisions more than any kind of government entity putting down a here's the law. They might go, oh gosh, that doesn't look good. We don't look good in this article. You know what? We need to do something. So in that way, you know, nothing's, nothing's more important to a big business than in the court of public opinion.
Katie Utterback:Yeah, that's true.
Chase Peckham:So I, yeah, I think it's really interesting. I think that it's it's um, I think we're we're banking as far as we, we have to make it more reusable for everyone. Um, cause we're only gonna benefit when all of our society can participate in our economy. I mean, it's not good for the economy when there's a bunch of haves and a bunch of have nots and a few of us sprinkled in the middle. Um, we really need to be, and I'm not saying can't have this, but we'd rather lift everybody up to the middle and higher, right. That's, that's where we would all let love to be. Is that romantic in thinking probably a bit. But I think that we shouldn't start striving for it and I don't think it, it comes from having, uh, us take from one entity and handing it to another. But I do think that when you get more people involved and you, and you create more opportunity for more people, it will take care of itself. Um, but that's those people, those individuals need that opportunity. And it's tough to come by. I, I, I think we could talk this over and over and over again. I think today was a great, uh, a great discussion and Katie, uh, it was a really, really well done blog. And if you haven't seen it go to debtwave.org and look at it's one of the last ones that was put out there. It's uh,
Felipe Arevalo:Yeah, we'll go ahead and put the link in the, in the show notes as well.
Chase Peckham:It, it overdraft NSF fees is coming to an end question mark it's really well done. So, um, thank you for, for doing that. And as always, if you enjoyed this episode, please, uh, follow us, uh, like us, uh, and listen to us and share us. I let people know we're here.