Julie VanLier and Dr. Svetlana Cvetkovic discuss their experiences and successes teaching phonics. They both highlight the importance of a speech-to-print approach and the impact it has had on their students' reading and spelling abilities. The conversation also delves into the principles of speech to print and the scope and sequence of instruction. They emphasize the importance of interleaving, where concepts are revisited over time. The integration of phonics into all aspects of reading and writing is key, as well as the use of authentic text. Overall, their approach focuses on engagement, flexibility, and integration to ensure student success in literacy.
Takeaways
Key Tenets of Speech to Print
- Sounds can be represented by 1, 2, 3, or 4 letters.
- Sounds can be spelled different ways.
- Spellings can be pronounced in different ways.
Resources
We wrote a book! The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night
Don't miss an episode! Sign up for FREE bonus resources and episode alerts at LiteracyPodcast.com
Helping teachers learn about science of reading, knowledge building, and high quality curriculum.
Julie VanLier and Dr. Svetlana Cvetkovic discuss their experiences and successes teaching phonics. They both highlight the importance of a speech-to-print approach and the impact it has had on their students' reading and spelling abilities. The conversation also delves into the principles of speech to print and the scope and sequence of instruction. They emphasize the importance of interleaving, where concepts are revisited over time. The integration of phonics into all aspects of reading and writing is key, as well as the use of authentic text. Overall, their approach focuses on engagement, flexibility, and integration to ensure student success in literacy.
Takeaways
Key Tenets of Speech to Print
- Sounds can be represented by 1, 2, 3, or 4 letters.
- Sounds can be spelled different ways.
- Spellings can be pronounced in different ways.
Resources
We wrote a book! The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night
Don't miss an episode! Sign up for FREE bonus resources and episode alerts at LiteracyPodcast.com
Helping teachers learn about science of reading, knowledge building, and high quality curriculum.
You're listening to. Melissa and Lori Love Literacy. How can a kindergarten teacher have three-fourths of her class spelling CVC words by November? Yes, you heard that right November. With effective and efficient phonics instruction, students can learn the code quickly. In today's episode, two teachers, svetlana Svetkovich and Julie Van Leer, share how they teach structured phonics to give students what they need and keep it moving. They provide tips that you can incorporate into your own phonics instruction.
Lori:Hi teacher friends. I'm Lori and I'm Melissa. We are two educators who want the best for all kids, and we know you do too.
Melissa:We worked together in Baltimore when the district adopted a new literacy curriculum.
Lori:We realized there was so much more to learn about how to teach reading and writing.
Melissa:Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.
Lori:Hi everyone. We can't wait to talk to two educators today about teaching phonics and what's worked for them.
Melissa:As Lori said, we have not one, but two amazing teachers here today. With us we have Julie Van Lier and Svetlana Cvetkovich, and they are going to share effective and efficient ways to teach phonics. Welcome to the podcast, thank you, thank you so excited you're here.
Lori:Yeah, we met so long ago and I'm so excited that you're both finally here on the podcast, thank you. Thank you, so excited you're here. Yeah, we met so long ago and I'm so excited that you're both finally here on the podcast. So I'm hoping we can kick this off by each of you sharing a little bit about your story. So, julie, I'd love to hear from you first, and also if you could share a little bit of context of what you've taught and what you're doing anything about yourself you think would be interesting for our listeners to know as we head into this phonics conversation.
Julie VanLier:Alrighty, I'm in my 23rd year of teaching right now. Originally, I taught first grade for four years, so it was like eons ago, I feel like. After my first four years, I moved to a different district and I was teaching in the affluent country club school, so it was a country club in our attendance area, so we had all those kids. Principals from our district sent their kids to my school administrators, teachers in the district, so it was sort of like the school to be at. I was there for 10 years teaching kindergarten and then I was approached about moving to a different school in the same district and at first I was like nope, no way, and I moved. So this is my ninth year teaching same district, but in a high poverty school. Now, in 2022, 75.9% of our kids qualified for free or reduced lunch and I was in the same district, but I was moving and I stayed the same grade level.
Julie VanLier:But I was flabbergasted my first well, let's be honest like three months of school, because these kids who are coming into kindergarten, they couldn't recognize their name, they couldn't spell their name, they didn't know how to hold a pencil, they didn't know letter sounds, they didn't know letter names Most of the stuff that kids at my old school knew how to or knew what to do With that high poverty, a lot of single parents, parents working two jobs, and so when I moved schools to, it was just my kids couldn't do what they could do at my old school.
Julie VanLier:And then at end of the year we used iReady for our test and my scores were horrible, and so I'd approached our curriculum director about getting an intervention program. He's older, he just retired, but he's very much in the mindset of teachers are the best creators of curriculum and knowledge, and so you know better than any program. And I said quite clearly I don't, because look at my I-Ready scores. And so, through a series of really fortunate events, I stumbled upon Ebley, which is a speech-to-print curriculum, and Ebley is different because it starts with what children already have, which is language, and so I'm able to use Ebley with my Tier 1 kids, my tier two kids, my tier three kids. I also, when my kids go to their specials, arts and music, I go and help fourth grade and third grade kids who are struggling, and so that's amazing to hear and I think you might've forgotten to share that at this point.
Lori:Three and I don't want to speak for you, so tell me if I'm wrong, julie, okay, three quarters of your class in November could spell CVC words. They could, they could. Yes, I just want to say your kindergarten yes.
Julie VanLier:Yes, yes, yes, and just wait till you hear about what my kids can do that my partner's class cannot do.
Lori:So it's good, all right. So, svetlana, we would love to hear a little bit about you, about your knowledge and what brought you here too.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:Yes, thank you again. So I was a second grade teacher, primarily for the larger scope of my classroom experience, probably about eight years but in general I taught kindergarten and first grade and some third grade and then. But what happened? Also, like Julie, I was in a high poverty school, title one, and many of my second graders kept coming in reading at a kindergarten level and I couldn't get them to catch up. So I thought, ok, I'll go get my reading specialist credential, that'll fix it. So I went to school, got my master's, did the whole reading specialist thing, came with a few more little tools in my toolbox, but not enough to catch the kids up. You know they were making some progress.
Lori:I know it's unfortunate, and it's unfortunate that the title makes you think that you knew yeah it did I go?
Svetlana Cvetkovic:oh, I should know. But I'm trying all these things, but it's really the same thing. It was just covered up, you know, called something different or I don't know. Anyways, so then I became a reading specialist for the school K-5. I did remediation there at that school for a few years. Military took us across the country to Maryland and I became a reading specialist there at a middle school and that's when I had a real big aha, because it was on the other side of the coast and I had seventh, sixth, eighth graders coming in reading at a kindergarten level. And these are kids who have had extensive Wilson training. Especially they did Wilson in that district or in Gillingham as well, since kindergarten, since first grade, and they're in eighth grade, seventh grade, not able to read or spell.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:So that's when I decided I need to go get my doctoral, I'm going to go back to school, I'm going to do more research. There's something missing that I need to find out what it is. And in my research I really found this speech to print way and really phonographics is what I, what I stumbled upon first, and then that's when I started searching some more and I found Ebley and I got trained in both phonographics and Ebley. But then I decided to actually try the Ebley system with my first student when I submitted my dissertation. I go, let me try this, let me see how this is working. And I had a fourth grade dyslexic student who was struggling since, again, he was at about a kindergarten level and I was able to remediate him in about you know six hours. He just took off. I mean, he wasn't skilled but he understood for the first time how the whole thing worked.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:And then from there on I've been remediating students ever since, of all ages. I did my first adult student about a year ago, 47 years old. Adult student about a year ago, 47 years old. And by our third session he told me you know what, svetlana, I actually get it, I get it now. He understood how the whole thing worked after, again, years of remediation, his whole life. So here I am today sharing these stories and just knowing that finally it took all this time right To finally say you know what I could teach anyone to read and spell at any age and any level to their highest potential. And I was never able to say that until I got trained in Ebley and the speech to print you know sort of principle that we follow and the speech to print you know sort of principle that we follow.
Melissa:Yeah, this is great and this is what we want to dig in even deeper right here. So, julie, you might have some more successes to share with us, so feel free to jump in there. Svetlana, you just shared some great ones with us, but I also want you all to dig in a little bit with. You know, you mentioned phonographics, you mentioned Ebley, but I know the teachers out there are thinking like, ok, so what are they doing? Though? Like what, what's happening in their classrooms that's different than what, than what was happening before? So go ahead, julie, if you want to share some more of your success stories and then dig into what you're doing.
Julie VanLier:So, kids, come to school with their language and so we start off with those language skills are already having. And there's three principles that my students learn right away from the beginning of the year. So one of the speech-to-print principles is that one, two, three or four letters can spell a sound. Then they learn that a sound can be spelled many ways and then they learn that the same spelling can represent different sounds. And so my kids, throughout the entire day, not just phonics time they stand the same horse, so it doesn't matter if they're reading something in calendar, reading something in science or writing something in calendar, science, social studies, math All day long they learn the principles of one, two, three, four letters spell a sound. A sound can be spelled in many different ways. The same spelling can represent different sounds.
Melissa:So, Lana, do you want to add anything on to Well?
Svetlana Cvetkovic:I do. So I'm really happy that Lori mentioned Pam's work and that spelling leads to that stronger orthography. There is a recent meta-analysis that I just read by. I don't know the name now I'll link it to you guys. But Yi and somebody but David Sher's work on self-teaching hypothesis. He mentioned their meta-analysis. That just happens. That's when I dug around into their meta-analysis but what they found is that the spelling led to an enhanced version of the self-teaching. So because Julie is actually starting with the spelling to teach the kids how to decode, they're actually gaining a stronger like Lori said orthography.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:They're connecting all those neural pathways a lot more efficiently as well, because spelling, we know, demands more from us. You're a blank slate. You're engaging everything to figure out what letter am I going to write for the ro sound? What letter am I going to write for a? What am I going to I going to write for a? What am I going to write for good? And you're just trying to put some letters down on a board or paper. So these kids are, from the get go, really integrating all those networks right away and they're again understanding how the code works and they realize that they're going to sound to spell and they're going to sound to decode, they're going to use sound no matter what, and they don't view words differently. They just see a printed word and they're going to just apply sound.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:They don't know if it's a red word or a fancy word or any kind of other word that we're trying to categorize, words under Her. Kids just know that they're going to apply sound, and if they don't know the sound, julie's going to provide those sounds for them for whatever grapheme they don't know the sound for yet. So it's not a big deal.
Julie VanLier:Yeah, I was going to say if I could add on to that. You know the kids, like Svetlana said, the kids know I'm going to provide the sound or the spelling if they need it. So you know we don't have a high frequency word time where I do flashcards and lists, or you know we don't put hearts around the tricky spellings. No matter where we are in our day, or even like if we're in the hallway taking a bathroom break and there's all these signs by the bathroom my kids are noticing lately. We do our spelling and our reading the exact same way, no matter where we are or what we're doing.
Melissa:And for those words. I was going to ask you about these high frequency words that often are irregular words. We just had a lot. We had Katie Pace Miles and Daniel Kolenbrand around to talk all about this and it's really fascinating. But I'm wondering, like, even if you haven't taught that sound or that sound spelling correspondence, you still tell them Is that right, julie? You still like, just like, this is what it is, yep, so lately, yeah them is that is that right, julie? You still like, just you're like this is what it is.
Julie VanLier:Yep, so lately, yeah, so lately. Um, because my kids are doing so well, when I do a read aloud I'm like I'm not reading you the title, you're reading me the title, and so if there's a sound, if there's the spelling pattern they haven't learned, you know, we get to it, they try it and I'll just say you know, say ah, you know, or whatever it is, and then they say it and they blend it together and now it's sort of fun because we've done so much of the code. They're like we did that before, or we know that, or they'll even say no, we haven't, we haven't done that one yet, but it's just like it's. So they're blank slates, you know. It's so natural to them.
Melissa:You don't feel like it's feel like the. The vibe is that that would be overwhelming for students, right that you want to keep it to, just like a finite number.
Julie VanLier:You know, when I got trained in Ebley which is speech to print, I was overwhelmed and I'm like kids can't do this, no way can kids do this. And I dragged my feet to start. And I dragged my feet to start and all these excuses in my head, like they can't hold a pencil, they can't even write their name, um, and I was shocked what kids could do. And then there was even times like I was doing my lessons, I'm like, well, they can't do X. So like I helped them and I sugarcoated it. And then I'm like, oh, I guess they could have done it. Um, and so I like I really had. I, my beliefs are what told me was holding my kids back. I mean, my kids can do this and it's natural to them. They all can talk, you know, so they, if I put my adult mindset, then it is hard and they can't do it, but to the kids there's nothing to it.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:Yeah. To add, I think Julie touched on something important in the fact that we're not holding them back, so meaning she's giving them as much of the code as she possibly can, as quickly as she can, and they're not taking it to the point where they're overwhelmed, they're shutting down. These kids are excited for it. They can't wait for more of that code. They don't want to be in CVC land for their whole kindergarten year because they're not going to understand how the code works if they just stay with those patterns. She's teaching the consonant E pattern already in October. By November they're doing multi-syllable words and she's teaching them how to tackle those, both in reading and in spelling. And so the kids are empowered and they have enough of the code by November to activate that statistical learning which we all use to learn new things.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:And that self-teaching hypothesis takes over for them. And they're just, they're just moving on that train. So not all of them, of course. A lot of you know, let's say a handful are always going to need extra doses, more time or repetition. All those things are still the same, but. But the rest of the class, you know, is taking off. But those, even those, that 1% of the class or 2%, they're still making incredible gains that they probably wouldn't have otherwise.
Julie VanLier:Yeah, and you know Svetlana mentionedlana mentioned all the things we're doing in the fall. And it's true because I start off with the principles for speech to print right away. So first they learn all the one-letter spellings, the ones that traditionally in kindergarten and in some first grades they take all year to work on. But the beginning of October the kids learn that sounds can be spelled with one, two, three or four letters. So then we're getting into digraphs where you know we're getting into the you know, consonant E.
Julie VanLier:Actually mid-October is when they learn about the consonant E and that plays into sounds can be spelled with one, two, three or four letters and that plays into sounds can be spelled with one, two, three or four letters. And so they're spelling and they're reading and you know they're doing all these things to help them with that. But then we also get into the same sound can be spelled with different spellings, and that's end of October. I mean, back when I did other phonics programs we I don't even know if we were really into sounds by that point. And so that's why my kids were doing such outstanding things with spelling in November is because by end of October they had learned the three major principles.
Lori:So I'm thinking about, I'm a listener right now and I'm thinking okay, there are these, these tenants of speech to print that you mentioned, julie. You called them out. I'm wondering if you've you could kind of go through a scope and sequence. I know you, you alluded to it, you shared a little bit about it, but what does that look like? And I don't know. I'm picturing it being a little messier than like okay, check the box. We've learned this, check the box. We've learned that Because I, as a practitioner, need to know all of the sound spelling patterns and obviously there's resources to help, right.
Lori:But I mean, I will tell you, when I was an adult and I learned one of those tenets of the speech-to-print approach right, that sounds can be spelled with one, two, three or four letters I didn't know that. I was blown away and I felt really silly. I was like how, how did I not know this my whole life? And then I just wanted to go walk around with it on a shirt for, you know the whole. I was like this is so cool. How do people not know this? You know.
Julie VanLier:Well, you know it's. It's so funny you mentioned that because when my kids go to gym art, music, music I go and work with some of the third and fourth graders and one year was first graders and this little first grader that up to earn way the sounds can be spelled with one, two, three or four letters, is my absolute favorite lesson. Like not for kindergarten, because they just sort of accept it and they're like it's just, you know, but when I work with struggling readers, that is like such a light bulb moment for me. So there was this one little first grader and I taught him that lesson.
Julie VanLier:He hits himself on his forehead. He's like you have got to be kidding me. He's like why did nobody ever tell me this? And he said his name. And he's like I have a two letter spelling in my name and so. And then, even when I work with the third and fourth graders, like when you explain that to them, like Svetlana can explain it in better words than me. But it's this light bulb thing and it just opens up this door to them and it all makes sense.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:Yeah, I think to them they finally understand the logic that there is not just chaos, like how you're saying, like, oh my God, it seems like it's chaotic the way you're explaining things, but there is a scope and sequence. We go from simpler to more complex. The difference is it's just going a lot faster and you're introducing more at the same time. So we're not going to just teach that the letter A spells the sound A. We're going to teach them right in that same lesson AY is A, a constant, ae is A, ai is A. And then they're just going to go oh. And then they're going to see in this, like this you create these categories because the way we learn is we look for similarities and we look for differences, patterns, right, exactly, our brains are pattern seekers. So the way it's taught and Ebley has these lessons for free there's an Ebley supercharged section on YouTube and I believe it's maybe lesson I don't know five or six, I'm not sure, but I'll send you guys that link. But anybody who's interested in how this kind of goes, these sorts, these sound sorts, this is the key. And so then they unlock this logic of like oh, okay, here's some spellings. This is more common than this one. This one likes to be at the end of the word, this one likes to be at the middle of the word. You look for these tendencies but there's no rules, there's no hard set thing of. This is always here, always there, but there's definitely more common, less common, and they just kind of take it and run with it. You know they're not going to become masters of that spelling or that sound or different spellings right away, but again it unlocks that statistical learning which is what we want.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:We want that balance between explicit and implicit learning, what Seidenberg talks about all the time, and giving the kids more of that application to actually integrate this. We're going to not spend a ton of time on that sort. Maybe, I don't know, 10 minutes it takes to do that sort. The rest of the time, we're right away applying that to connect to text. We want to play the game. The rest of the time, we're right away applying that to connect to text. We want to play the game. We don't want to just do drills all day long. We want to play the game, and the game is actually reading and spelling, of course. So we're going to write a sentence afterwards as well of whatever we read a quick little summary sentence. So it's always. It's always integrated, it's never just sitting in one little you know subscale. All the subscales are always integrated, which I think is a key factor. For anything to be efficient and effective is keeping things integrated.
Julie VanLier:And I think a key thing too is you know, yeah, I do my small groups when my kids leave, but I'm doing this tier one with 26, 26, no, 26 kindergartners, and so, if you know, I'm not teaching to mastery, so you know, every kid is at their level and the ones you know, like they're all getting accelerated. So I'm not teaching to the middle, I'm not teaching to the end. I'm not losing anyone because there's so much interleaving going on and I think that's too. You know, that's why my scores and I ready are so good at the end of the year and it's why so many are actually above grade level, because they are just as engaged as those kids who are towards the bottom. You know, everyone's working, everyone's learning.
Melissa:I'm also wondering about. I've had set for variability in my head for a little bit here. I wanted to ask you all that because it sounds like you also set them up with this mindset from the very beginning, right, instead of them coming in thinking, okay, this letter says one sound, this is the sound, and then you know months later you're like just kidding it actually has more sound and not just in like one word, in like 2000 words, the word yummy.
Julie VanLier:Okay, today we did yummy, Yummy has the Y with a Y and yummy has a Y at the end with an E, and the kids just they're like that's how it goes.
Melissa:So you're setting them that set for variability? Is that like where they get to play with it right In their heads? Oh wait, this, this might say this sound, but you're bringing that to them from the very beginning.
Julie VanLier:Day one of kindergarten. After we learn how to use the bathroom and we learn how to use the playground, we're right into our phonics.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:Yeah, I'm so happy you said that, melissa, because yes, I didn't mention that. Set for variability is definitely a key component that the kids are introduced to right away. They're learning to be very flexible with all those spellings and if they try once they're going to try a sound, let's say it's the word above. They might start by saying above. Oh, wait a minute, that's not really a word, okay, let's try, try a right here. And you're going to point to that graphing with the A, say a, and then they're going to go a, b and then, if they try, try a again, above, okay, above, they got. Oh, that's a word, okay. So you're helping them, you're guiding them through that. Just enough again, not forever, but just for enough for them to pick up and take off on their own.
Julie VanLier:Yeah, it is so exciting to see as kids flex those sounds. Just yesterday we were doing a sort with same spelling, different sound for Y, and I had 26 kids but then three third graders joined me and that's a whole nother thing about how much growth they've actually made with doing kindergarten, because it's speech to print. But just like I, so I had 29 eyes, pairs of eyes on the board, like trying to decode this word, and I'm like I wish I could have videoed it, because every single kid was engaged and they were saying a sound and then they flex that sound and then they got the word, and then the kid next to them got the word and it's like whoa, I bet there's first grade classrooms that can't do this yet.
Lori:Okay, so I want to take us quickly back to a word we used earlier. I think you used it, julie Interleaving. I'm wondering if just Svetlana, you're next to me on the screen Would you like to explain interleaving for us and how that works in what you're doing, when you're instructing, using this approach?
Svetlana Cvetkovic:Okay, great. So I love interleaving Again. Interleaving is just means that you're going to teach something one day and then you're going to bring it back into the mix, let's say two or three days later, or even a week later or two weeks later you never quite forget about it. You're going to weave it back in again. It's kind of like that spiral review sort of. So you're going to interleave and give those doses until you get more and more automaticity with whatever you're interleaving.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:And that's with any kind of skill that you're learning. But in terms of the scope and sequence of how the speech to print works, we're going to introduce, let's say, consonant E, which is pretty tough at the beginning because kids get a little bit frustrated with this advanced code.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:They're like what you know what's going on, this E hanging out the end, and they forget. But again, that's a great opportunity to show them that flexibility. Oh, you're right, it could be A, say A, and they just fix it. But the point is we're not going to move on to the next thing, meaning digraphs, or the sort for the O sound or the sort for the E sound or the sort for the A sound. We're going to keep moving them through the advanced code, even though they're not getting, they're not always reading the CVCE pattern accurately with 100%, because again, we're not doing mastery. We're moving them along through the scope but interleaving consonant E, always within any kind of a story, because of course you're going to see, you know the CVC E pattern everywhere. It's very common. So if you're using enough authentic text, which we do, they're going to see those things that you've taught them previously, especially the easier stuff. But we want to them to get to the advanced stuff quicker.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:So we're not letting the mastery stop us from moving forward. We're just going to keep interleaving.
Julie VanLier:Well, I think you know, because of that interleaving too, my school is really transient. I've gotten a bunch of new kids since November. I just got two new ones this week and they because we're interleaving and we're always going back and we've never taught to mastery and then moved on these kids. They always come, they all. When I get them they're always more like September kindergartners, but it just takes. It doesn't take them long and they're caught right up too. So you know, it's the power of it. Doesn't matter when you get a kid, you don't need them from day one for them to be successful. I mean, they could. They could start anytime during the school year.
Lori:Because you're always interleaving and bringing it back around. Okay, just want to pin that for everyone.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:And integrating it in everything. So we're going to integrate it. They're going to write all the time, like every opportunity. Julie, how many times a day do you think your kids are writing or spelling?
Julie VanLier:Two to three, two to three. I mean because if we have something Times a day, yeah, I mean because if we have something in math that needs to be written, they're going to say their sounds and spell it. If we are doing something with our science, knowledge building, they're going to write it and spell it. And you know, somebody sends us a note, we're all going to read it.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:Yeah, and so Julie doesn't have spelling time. Phonics time it's all day time and that time is always integrating not just phonics, but we're also teaching the kids how to apply phonemic awareness into phonics. I think this is key for how they're moving so quickly, because we're starting with the word. So if we start with the word, I don't know what's a good word to do. Let's just say cat for the simplicity sake. Right, cat? We're going to just start with that pronunciation Cat. What's the first sound you hear in cat? And this child is going to say k. What's the next sound you hear in cat At? And we're going to do these little lines on the board like sound lines, little placeholders as they're saying, identifying those sounds.
Julie VanLier:Like an Alcona box. Like an Alcona box.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:Okay, we have these lines and those are our little placeholders for those sounds. And guess what they just did? They segmented right, they identified those sounds. I didn't write any kind of a word yet. And now, if they don't know their letters at all, if they've never been introduced at all to anything, I would have little cards with some letters written down. Been introduced at all to anything, I would have little cards with some letters written down, little flashcard things, three by five.
Melissa:Sticky notes.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:Yeah, sticky notes, and I'll just have them a C, an A, a T, and maybe I'll have a P and an M and I'll go okay, which one of these is K? And they'll point to the K, whatever they think is K. If they get it right, great, they get it right, they can slide that down. If they don't, I'll just say, oh, that's this is okay, take it down. And then again, where is the app? Which one of these app bring it down? Which one of these is bring it down? Then they're going to, they're going to erase that or get rid of that. And now they're going to spell the word cat and they're going to say the sounds as they spell.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:So in that one little activity they did phonemic awareness, they did phonics, they did letter. You know associate pairing, right, they connected symbols to a sound. They blend and if we wanted to, we could switch out a sound. Okay, let's turn cat into caught, what's changing? C-a-t, c-a-t. Oh, a, that's not a, that's a. Let's get rid of the a. Where's a? And we could switch it out. Now, that's manipulation of the phoneme. So you could do all that in just that same five minute activity. So again, integration.
Lori:If you were to do cat to caught, would you point out, okay, that that a sound in at has one letter, and then let's see in caught. Are we, are we? Are we explicitly pointing that out for students?
Svetlana Cvetkovic:I'm just curious uh, well, I just have an o. I'll have an o. Uh, I think you know I'm hearing.
Julie VanLier:I'm hearing you both, I'm hearing, I think it's.
Lori:I was like that's very advanced. I was here for it.
Julie VanLier:It's the different dialects because I hear caught like the the bat and I hear caught like I caught a fish.
Lori:I was doing caught a fish, but that's a good speech to prince thing too, because go ahead, svetlana. Well, I thought Svetlana was just really throwing out an intense example and I was tracking, I was tracking with her. That was October.
Julie VanLier:So they're good for it.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:And you know what, if I had that for letters spelling on there, they'd be like, oh, okay, they'd be fine with it.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:I'm not going to teach them that on day one, but yeah, yeah, I wouldn't be a problem. But yeah, I know it's not funny. I worked with a student from London, virtually, and it was my first time working with somebody with an accent. We had different accents. I work with students from the East Coast too, but it's a little bit easier, but this one was totally different. So we did the sort on.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:The same spelling can represent different sounds. In this example it was the spelling A. A I call a chameleon. He could be a lot of different sounds and a lot of different parts of the word. So, but it was interesting in London or England, the English accent they only had. They had fewer categories than we did in our English dialect. So, or American sorry American dialect. So then I was learning a ton from him. That was really fun. So that was a good learning experience. But with accents we do have to take that into account. And but again, which makes speech to print just so flexible and easy, just to go? Oh, you know that's. To me it sounds like ah. To you sounds like you know. However you say it, the ah in caught. To me it sounds like ah to you sounds like you know.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:however you say it, the ah and ca. To me it's the same sound. To me it's the same sound, I know.
Julie VanLier:But you know, like, even like, take this word P-O-L-I-C-E. I'm a resource room teacher who grew up the next town over from me. I was doing, we were doing that word last year and she and I, you know, same town, same demographics. We pronounce that word differently, you know, and so that's not even like across the world or across the country.
Melissa:That was, like you know, down the road, but I love the flexibility. Still, like you said, oftentimes when that comes up it's like someone's saying it wrong instead of just honoring. Like we say it differently and there are different ways to spell. These sounds no big deal.
Julie VanLier:Yeah, the kids don't care, and I think, because I reinforced those speech, to print principles all day, like I don't know if you guys remember, but I used to teach like sight words and then snap words and then popcorn words, and my kids could always say, oh, that's a popcorn word, you know that's a snap word, but they didn't know the word, they just knew it was one by sight, they could identify. Well, they didn't even they couldn't even say what the word was.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:But they knew some, some symbols.
Julie VanLier:Yeah and so and was a popcorn word or a snap word, but they didn't know how to read the word and or of or whatever. But now, because I don't do any of those gimmicks, you know they just, they see it, they read it. There's no big debate about what do you call it. You know no big deal. We save so much instructional time.
Melissa:Well, you all have been given some like really good tips for people in the classroom. I'm wondering if you have any more. I'm just thinking of those teachers who you know they might not. They a lot of teachers don't have the Ebley program, you know that or a speech different program at all. But I'm wondering if there's any other tips you would give to teachers who might have a more traditional program but just little things they might be able to incorporate in their day to get some of the success that you all have seen.
Julie VanLier:Well, I know that one thing we do is that we say the sounds when we read and when we write all day. So you know, if the kids know, if they're reading and they know the word, they just automatically read it. If they don't know the word, they go right to the sounds. Same with spelling you know, if you know how to spell the words, you just quick write it. If you don't know the spelling, you say each sound and then you attach a spelling to it. So you know, I think that is what gets me a lot of bang for the buck with my kids is that you're saying the sounds when you read and you write. You know it doesn't matter what we're reading, what we're writing, they follow that same thing. Well, and there's no island teaching, so it's not like we do a specific phonics time and that's the only time we're reading and spelling. Or you know we have a writing time and it's the only time we're writing. If the opportunity presents itself to read or to spell, the kids are going to do it.
Melissa:I mean, even if it's, you know, the first week of school or the last week of school and I would say phonemic awareness time and phonics time, which is a pretty big debate right now.
Julie VanLier:Yeah, there's no, like 10 minute, five minute, two minute. It's all interwoven with you know when we're spelling and when we're reading.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:Because again, we have to remember what's the purpose of phonemic awareness it's to get us to read. So why keep it separated and isolated? There is a time and place for it for those students who have that severe phonological deficit going for them or speech language issues, okay fine. But again, it shouldn't be for everything. It should just be like literally three minutes, maybe maximum daily, but that's it. Everything should always be integrated to those printed letters, because that's the whole point and showing the kids that that's what the point of it is, because they're not gonna just do phonemic awareness for phonemic awareness sake. What's the point of that? Or spelling for spelling sake. We're going to spell to actually write a story for someone to read, or to share our thoughts and communicate what we think about the world.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:So again keeping things very relevant and authentic, keeping it real for these kids makes a big difference. But to add to Julie, the tip that I would give is watch those videos. There's free stuff, so you don't have to afford anything. There's a ton of free stuff. I could link a source that I compiled of a bunch of there's just there's Ebley free stuff. There's Phonic Books free stuff on SpeechPrint. They have a ton of infographics that are for free to show them how to sort the same sound for different spellings. Okay, for the same sound. There's, like I said, ebley earlier has a whole like 20 lessons in progression. You wouldn't use those with a kindergartner, though.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:Those are for second grade and older but it allows you, as the teacher, to understand the process and how it all works. But the number one thing is say the sounds as they write. Always whoever's doing the talking is doing the learning. So if you're saying the sounds for the child, you're doing the learning. But if you're having them say those sounds, the moment they're writing those letter graphemes, it's powerful. And I tell the kids all the time, I don't know something happens in the brain. It's magic. They love that word, they love that. They're magic.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:So if they hear that they're like okay, I'm going to say those sounds, I go, something happens and it just sticks and it stays in there forever and you never have to do it again.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:But in fact we are always sounding things. It feels like magic to me, I know we are. We are always sounding like Lori said. Feels like magic to me, I know. We are always sounding like Lori said.
Svetlana Cvetkovic:Next time you write something, you'll hear your subtext. You'll hear that voice. You'll hear yourself. You're going to hear yourself sounding as you write. You're going to hear yourself sounding as you're reading. You're not sounding out words, because you're reading words by sight, but you're not going to always know every single word. If I pick up a study, a chemistry study that I've no terminology of, I'm going to have to sound out a lot of words on that study. So you're going to hear my voice in my head sounding that out and taking it chunk by chunk. But I would recommend investing in at least a small group of whiteboards. Whiteboard and marker is a huge cognitive relief for kids. They just love those whiteboards, they're super engaged with them and it's making you, the teacher, get those kids writing and spelling spell to decode, which again creates that stronger connection and orthography which we want.
Julie VanLier:I mean my kids are doing so well because you know I'm pushing them and if they don't know something I just supply it. But they're not stuck reading CVC. I mean yesterday they read to me Piggy who is that Elephant and Piggy book, you know, and the sounds they didn't know I supplied. So you know, like just getting into authentic text. You know there's a really short window that you need decodable text, but it's not forever and ever. All school year.
Lori:So much more to say about that. If you have another couple hours to stay on, we have a whole decodable text series. If you're listening and you're like I, want to learn more about decodable text, we will also link that decodable text series and, svetlana, I will take you up on that link, so we will link all kinds of good stuff. And also, if you're listening, sign up for our newsletter. We share a ton of free resources there as well, so we'll be sure to put a lot of these links in there for you too. Most importantly, though, thank you so much, both of you, for being here. We can't thank you enough. I hope everyone grabs a whiteboard and starts chunking sounds and saying sounds and just so inspired by your amazing work. So, thank you both. Thank you.
Julie VanLier:You're welcome, thank you.
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Melissa:Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests of the Melissa and Lori Love Literacy Podcast are not necessarily the opinions of Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Lori:We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to learn with us.