From 3/4/2022
We’ve been asked about spelling and the connection to reading science more times than we can count. Today, we talk with expert J. Richard Gentry, author of Brain Words and blog contributor to Psychology Today: Raising Readers, Writers, and Spellers (An Expert Guide for Parents).
He tells us all about spelling and how it connects to our speech and language system. Moreover, he supplies teachers with practical, meaningful, science of reading-aligned strategies to teach spelling.
We wrote a book! The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night
Don't miss an episode! Sign up for FREE bonus resources and episode alerts at LiteracyPodcast.com
Helping teachers learn about science of reading, knowledge building, and high quality curriculum.
From 3/4/2022
We’ve been asked about spelling and the connection to reading science more times than we can count. Today, we talk with expert J. Richard Gentry, author of Brain Words and blog contributor to Psychology Today: Raising Readers, Writers, and Spellers (An Expert Guide for Parents).
He tells us all about spelling and how it connects to our speech and language system. Moreover, he supplies teachers with practical, meaningful, science of reading-aligned strategies to teach spelling.
We wrote a book! The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night
Don't miss an episode! Sign up for FREE bonus resources and episode alerts at LiteracyPodcast.com
Helping teachers learn about science of reading, knowledge building, and high quality curriculum.
Welcome teacher friend. I'm Lori and I'm Melissa. We are two literacy educators in Baltimore. We want the best for all kids and we know you do too.
Speaker 2:Our district recently adopted a new literacy curriculum, which meant a lot of change for everyone, lori and I can't wait to keep learning about literacy with you today, about literacy with you today.
Speaker 1:Hi everyone, welcome to Melissa and Lori Love Literacy Literacy Podcast. We are here with Richard Gentry today. He is an internationally acclaimed author, researcher and educational consultant which sounds very fancy Known for his groundbreaking work in education topics such as early literacy. But the thing we're going to talk to him today that we are most excited about is spelling.
Speaker 1:We have not talked a lot about spelling, and we can't wait to learn more. He has a game for us, or a game or an activity. Either way, it should be really fun, and we don't have to tell if we were wrong or not, so that's very appealing to us. You don't have to tell if we were wrong or not, so that's very appealing to us.
Speaker 2:Don't have to take a spelling test.
Speaker 1:No, I know what we should talk about.
Speaker 3:It's actually a pre-test, but you get to self-correct.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, okay, you know what that self-correcting is learning.
Speaker 3:So thank you yes.
Speaker 1:Well, Richard, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3:We're thrilled to have you.
Speaker 1:You're such fun.
Speaker 3:Laurie and Melissa. I'm just delighted to be here, honored to be here, and thank you very much for inviting me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course we're glad you're here.
Speaker 2:Richard, is there anything else? Oh, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll tell you a little more about myself. Please do Our audience. I want you to know that I was a well. First of all, I'm coming to you from my home on the Gulf Coast of the United States, from beautiful historic Mobile Alabama, the birthplace of Mardi Gras.
Speaker 1:So right in the middle of it right now. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we're having about a million people here. Ours is a little different, a little more family friendly than New Orleans, and we'd like everybody to know that we came up with it first.
Speaker 2:I lived in New Orleans for two years and I love Mardi Gras.
Speaker 3:Oh, everybody does.
Speaker 2:It is so fun.
Speaker 3:Everybody does. It is very fun, and I want everybody to know that I was a third, fourth and fifth grade teacher. I did an elementary education major at the University of North Carolina. After teaching, I did a master's degree and PhD in reading at the University of Virginia. For 16 years I directed a reading center at Western Carolina University. I was a full and tenured professor, but it took a big risk. I gave up the university position and became self-employed as a researcher, writer and educational consultant.
Speaker 3:I have 17 books and my most recent book is we're all interested in the science of reading, and my most recent book is Brain Words how the Science of Reading Informs Teaching. And I did that oh thank you with my co-author, who is a renowned reading scientist, dr Jean Ouellette, and I think one of the things that makes our author and reading educator team special is that we both come out of the classroom and Gene leaves his classroom and spends a lot of time outside his science lab working with children and teachers in schools. His wife, katrina, is also a teacher, so we think that's so important in helping teachers understand the science of reading from cognitive psychology and neuroscience and how we need to be informed and translate that into science-based practice in the classroom. So again, thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me to. Melissa and Lori love literacy because I love literacy too, I know we can tell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, richard, I've had brain words. I've actually had the book for I don't know how long, but I've had it for a while and I didn't dig into it because I was, honestly, a little bit scared of it. So I was like, oh, this, just this, feels like I don't know heavy. They're like I'm not going to understand it.
Speaker 2:That's how I was like really nervous, but I was like, if I'm talking to him this week, I got to dig into it. So I'm glad to report that it is not that way that I there is definitely a lot to learn, and that was it was. You know, there were parts where I was like, oh, this is new for me, especially around brain science and things like that. But it was really really great and, like you said, there's so many applications to the classroom and like how do you know? It's not just theory, but it is like what do you, what do you do in the classroom, and so it was a really good read this week. So thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Oh, wonderful. And you know, let me say this we are so proud. The book has become Brain Words, has become a bestseller, and one of the things that teachers tell us is that, unlike a lot of the science, of reading books from scientists, this one is not 400 pages long. It's designed to be easy for teachers and compatible with. You. Don't have to know a lot of jargon in the neuroscience literature or the cognitive science literature, and so thank you, I'm just delighted you are giving us this exposure here on the podcast today.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Would you mind doing a little summary of it for those listening who I know? Melissa just did a little. Oh, I thought it was scary. And it's not scary. It sounds very we're talking about brain words, but can you just give a little insight into what it might be about? A little snapshot for listeners.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely. Well, one of the things that will happen in our podcast today is that you'll all learn exactly what brain words are. We start out with two chapters on the architecture of the reading brain, and that's a little bit technical and scary because you know, you see the terminology that you may not know. You know the different lobes of the brain and we tried to make that as palatable as possible without scaring everyone away. But then it goes into all the rest of the chapters are very much application chapters.
Speaker 3:There's a chapter on the phases of invented spelling Phases of Invented Spelling. There's a chapter for a special chapter for how to do teach beginning reading in kindergarten and first grade, based on science. And then a chapter on grades two and beyond, the importance of spelling, why our view of the importance of spelling has changed over two decades, based on science, and we really point out that spelling has been given short shrift and we need to bring it back. And then, finally, it ends up with a chapter on dyslexia, and I like to tell teachers I'm an expert on dyslexia because I'm a lifelong dyslexic person myself and in many ways that's given me insights into what parents need to know and what teachers need to know about dyslexia, so I hope people will check out the brain words, how the science of reading informs teaching.
Speaker 1:That sounds amazing. I'm. I am fascinated with how the brain works and it. I wonder how you know I got to this point in my career without really understanding it. I bet lots of other teachers are wondering that same thing, like just realizing that we should, as educators and practitioners, be aware of that and we're so grateful for you for giving us that knowledge. So thank you, and I can't wait to jump into some of the content for today. And did you want to start with the game or the activity? I kind of want to know what it is. I'm so curious, like I'm really bad at waiting.
Speaker 1:But if you think it would fit at a better time we can talk about spelling first and then go into the activity I think I think this is the perfect time.
Speaker 3:I think you know I could not be set up better, because the whole purpose of the little activity is to answer this question what? What are brain words? And the activity is something that any teacher in first grade through grade six and even beyond can use. It is a five-step spelling process, okay for a pre-test. So what I'm doing is giving you a science-based spelling pre-test activity. So let me begin just listing the steps. Step one will be this is what you would do, maybe at the beginning of a week of spelling study for a grade-level classroom, and we would so. Imagine you have a spelling book and you want to do a pre-test on Monday, and then this would be a test, study test that would study the words, do activities throughout the week, and then there would be a post-test on Friday. So this is a pre-test activity. And again, five steps, and you might want to write these down if you have a pen and paper handy.
Speaker 3:Step number one is you hear the word and you will hear the word in a sentence. So what we're doing in this step is we're beginning with sound and meaning and then I'm going to ask you to say the word. That's step number two. Step number two is to activate your phonological awareness. Are you phonologically aware in your brain of how to pronounce this word? And the teacher is modeling the correct pronunciation of the word for phonological awareness. Step number three is that you will write the word You're going to spell it and, interestingly, by step number three, you have not seen the word You're going to spell it and, interestingly, by step number three, you have not seen the word this is a sound to spelling activity, encoding sound, to spelling activity.
Speaker 3:And step number four is that for the first time, you're now going to see the word. Now, of course, on our podcast today you won't be able to see the word, but I'm going to give you the spelling and you're going to match. You know, you can write it down, uh, the correct spelling. You can just write it down and that will uh represent step number four, reading the word. And in step number four, reading the word, and in step number four, you do an analysis of your own, you self-correct, you will analyze the word and you see, this is not just looking at a word and trying to memorize the word, but you're actually engaging your brain with this internal representation of the brain of the word in your left hemisphere. And then step number five would be using it and you would be using the word in science-based activities throughout the week, just for a short period of time. Integrated word study, generally speaking, is 20 minutes a day and, as you see, in our integrated word study we're integrating a lot of different aspects of word study, as opposed to teaching separate lessons in phonics and phonological awareness and vocabulary, sight, word recognition. We're integrating all of that within this one weekly study. So, if you're, let me, just before we start brain words are internal representations in the left hemisphere of your brain and brain words are part of the architecture of the reading brain, and one thing about spelling that's important to point out is that all of us are born with spoken language circuitry. You come into the world and you have architecture in your brain that enables you to easily learn to speak the language that you are exposed to, and if you're exposed to more than one language, you can pretty easily pick both languages up. The interesting thing, though, is, in contrast, no one is born with reading circuitry. Reading has to be taught, and this little activity to demonstrate that spelling is at the very foundation of the reading architecture or reading circuitry in the brain, and often you aren't aware that you are using the brain word or the visual representation of a spelled word when you read, because it's in your long-term memory, you have committed it to long-term memory, and you aren't aware that in the left hemisphere, an area called orthographic processing or the word form area, you're actually using spelling to read and comprehend, or the word form area, you're actually using spelling to read and comprehend. So that's what we're trying to demonstrate today.
Speaker 3:Are you ready? Yes, here's your first word. Okay, all right. My neighbor I'm giving you the meaning has a black and white dog. Okay, the word is you're going to hear it dog. Okay, now you say it please.
Speaker 1:Dog.
Speaker 2:Okay, now I want you to spell the word I jumped the gun.
Speaker 3:I did that before. That's all right, because, you see, you already knew you had that brain word. Okay, now step number four is to read it. Of course, we can't read it today, but I'm going to spell it for you and ask you to self-correct the word is spelled D-O-G. Now you can read it and self-correct. The word is spelled D-O-G. Now you can read it and self-correct. Well, I, you know, am sure, and we already know from Melissa, that dog is a brain word for you and you had no conscious awareness that you were actually using the picture of dog and a visual image of dog to activate dog for spelling it, because it's a brain word.
Speaker 1:You're not even conscious that you're using spelling so I'm really grateful that you chose a word that we knew I was very stressed about.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Okay, well, just relax, because we're not going to know, unless you want to share with us, whether you have a complete representation of the spelling of the next word or a partial representation of the spelling, or whether you don't even have a clue. We're not going to know, but you know? That's the whole importance of a pre-test. Okay, the next word. You're going to hear it in a sentence. My neighbor's dog is a King Charles Cavalier Spaniel and the word for you today is Cavalier. Okay, now you say it, please.
Speaker 1:Cavalier Okay very good.
Speaker 3:Now I want you to write it. Nobody's watching you write it, so we'll never know.
Speaker 1:We'll be honest with everyone, okay, and apparently Lori thinks so. We'll never know. We'll be honest with everyone, okay.
Speaker 3:And apparently Lori thinks she has it correct. She's brave enough to be honest.
Speaker 3:Okay, Now I'm going to step number four again is to read it. But you can't read it until I give you the correct spelling. So you write it down. The word cavalier is spelled C-A-V-A-L-I-E-R. Cavalier. Now you self-correct. Compare your spelling with the visual spelling. Now, integrated word study, which is what we're doing in this pretest, includes developing phonological awareness. So one of the things that one could use is called the syllable chin drop. It's very powerful to spell words by syllables. That's why we teach things like the six syllable types, and so I'm going to ask you to put your fist right under your chin and say the word cavalier Cavalier.
Speaker 1:Cavalier you felt your chin drop three Cav-a-lear.
Speaker 3:Cav-a-lear, you felt your chin drop three times. Yep, three syllables, okay. Integrated word study also reinforces phonics. For example, cavalier has three syllables the first syllable is a closed syllable, the next syllable is a swah syllable and the third syllable is a vowel team syllable. So you see, all of this is really importantly integrated into spelling word study.
Speaker 3:Spelling word study also includes developing vocabulary, meaning and grammar. For example, a King Charles Cavalier, spaniel is a noun. It's a small spaniel, but we can extend that vocabulary. Cavalier can also mean a horseman, can mean a mounted soldier. Imagine, visualize a bunch of medieval cavaliers coming, you know, up to the French castle. It can also be an adjective. It can mean disdainful, such as an arrogant and cavalier attitude toward others and cavalier attitude toward others. Or as an adjective it might even mean offhanded. The very dignified officials were confused by his cavalier manner.
Speaker 3:So that's what a brain word is and it's a science-based, very practical activity that anyone who is teaching spelling in first grade through sixth grade and beyond can remember to use. And one thing that comes out of that is the importance of syllable types. It's important in the science of reading that all teachers recognize the six-syllable types and that recognize that we use those throughout elementary school, even into middle school and beyond. When, as an adult, you learn to spell a word, you see a new word. Spell a word, you see a new word. You should think about it in terms of the sounds and the letter combinations for each syllable. So there you have it. There's a brain words activity. How'd you do? You don't have to tell us it was great.
Speaker 1:It was great, it was fun. I was thinking if I were teaching fifth grade again, I would call this a game and play it so often with my students.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and that's the thing that we often don't recognize with the science of reading the science of reading. There's not any part of it that, in my view, shouldn't be joyful and fun. Phonic study is not about sitting down in a desk with worksheets or short-term memory of words. It's engaging, really fun word study and that's how we would like teachers to visualize or think about spelling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, richard, I would love to practice this and try this out with Presley, my daughter. She's in fourth grade. Is that something that I can do? You mind if I record it and like maybe put it on social media and tag you in it? Is that OK? Oh, that'd be great, I'd love that yeah. I feel like it would really be helpful as an example for teachers and educators out there to see this as an accompaniment to this podcast.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes, yeah, I love that idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I won't do it with her doing it in reverse to me, cause I'm sure she'll want to play the teacher. But we'll skip that part. We'll just do the part where I'm a teacher.
Speaker 3:I can tell you make it fun for her. That's always good.
Speaker 1:We do have a lot of fun. That was. That was really fun.
Speaker 2:I'm wondering um, you know, I think back to my days in school and my spelling tests were. This is how I felt them. I don't know that my teacher meant them this way, but how I felt them as a student was here's a list of 20 random words for the week and I would spend that week at home memorizing them. I would put them on flashcards, you know. I would have my mom go through them with me and I would memorize those spellings until that Friday test and I would get that test back with. You know which ones I got right, which ones I got wrong. And then we moved to the next list. How is this different than what I felt as a student?
Speaker 3:Okay. Well, what you were experiencing was not based on science.
Speaker 3:It really didn't involve any teaching. What I call that is assigned and test. You know they gave you a list of words and one thing you pointed out is that the words weren't organized according to phonics or syllable patterns. You know seemingly random list of words and you know, in too many places where we, you know, we've not had any science-based teaching of spelling and in fact, in the last two decades three decades as a result of, quite frankly, whole language domination it sounds like you were in a whole language spelling book we simply were told that spelling wasn't important and we didn't need to teach spelling. And so what you were doing on Thursday night when your parents dreaded coming in and having a call?
Speaker 1:It was Thursday night. Yes, thank you for saying that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you were memorizing the words. You were putting the words in short-term memory and one of the things that happens with many kids is that the problem is that if the words are in short-term memory, you're not going to remember. You're not going to remember them. You have to get those words into long-term memory before their brain words. And that's why we have this recommendation for a test study throughout the week using different types of activities, maybe 20 minutes a day, and the. The concept is that you're encountering the words in different kinds of activities often enough so that those words by the Friday are transferring into your long-term memory and you aren't even aware, when we spell dog, that you were using the spelling.
Speaker 3:But that's absolutely how the brain architecture for literacy works. You have to have spelling and one of the reasons that I'm speaking out about the science of reading is that in so many schools and districts we've absolutely shoved spelling onto the back burner. Principals say teachers, you don't need to teach spelling, you know, we have spell check. You know, just do a test prep activity if you know. If your school is worried about the test scores, teachers tell me all the time that this is what they're hearing.
Speaker 3:And the problem is that we now know from cognitive psychology and neuroscience that we have to, that spelling is at the very core and that we have to teach spelling. We have to teach spelling. And we also know from research that spelling in the brain is critical for reading comprehension. So you know, when you have teachers say, well, we don't need to do spelling, we need to do comprehension work, well, my response to that is if kids can't read words, automatic word recognition, automatic word reading, then they can't comprehend. And so it's just so important to recognize that we really must in places where we push spelling on the back burner or in places where we're haphazard about it.
Speaker 3:There are a lot of different haphazard things can happen, with teachers just pulling words off the Internet and, quite frankly, the spelling component in many of the major reading programs is what I would call haphazard spelling. You know too many of those reading programs. They're not very congenial to teachers. There's just too much stuff and you know they're not integrating spelling. They have a spelling lesson, a phonics lesson, sometimes not even the same words as a vocabulary lesson. There's maybe a sight word lesson and maybe even a spelling component and maybe even a list of spelling words, but the teacher has to somehow put all that together along with all of that other stuff, and so teachers just need resources for teaching science-based spelling and an understanding of how important things like knowledge about six-syllable types and how important it is for all kids who are learning to read and going up through the elementary grades to be to know that spelling is very important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the things that you had said previously is that this well, in our pre-call, not on this podcast. So I'll say that the phases of spelling are really shown in children's writing. Is that right?
Speaker 3:It's absolutely right and that's one of the important parts of the Brain Words book. Chapter 5, I think, is on early phases of spelling development, and there are five phases early phases of spelling development. And there are five phases. Phase zero starts. It's not a phase, it's zero because it often happens in preschool and it's just wavy writing or loopy writing.
Speaker 1:That's where my son is. I was going to say Elliot is in that phase now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, how old is he? Oh, wonderful, wonderful. And phase one begins with the first time that the child is able to write his or her name. It's a beginning kindergarten phase and it's called pre-alphabetic because a kid can stream together some letters, but it's before a child recognizes how the alphabet works. Pre-alphabetic because those random letters don't represent sounds. And that's what an alphabet system is. It's the letters represent sounds. And at least by the end, by the middle of kindergarten, kids should move from phase one to phase two in the second half of kindergarten, and this is at minimal. Many kids will go faster than this or beyond that, but they all go through the same phases. And phase two, second half of kindergarten, is called partial alphabetic spelling. So for the first time they are beginning to recognize how that alphabet system works, that the letters are supposed to represent sounds, but it's only partial because they don't know all of the letters of the alphabet and all of the sounds that they represent. So from there they move to phase three, which in general is very, very important for the first half of first grade, and it's called full alphabetic spelling.
Speaker 3:And imagine a child is drawing a picture of an eagle that she saw at the zoo and she wants to write about this eagle. And she's in phase three. She's going to be able to spell all the sounds in the word, but likely what she's going to do. You'll hear her all the sounds in the word, but likely what she's going to do. You'll hear her if you're standing by. She'll say ego, e. And she'll have to think, hmm, what letter makes that sound? Then she has to think, hmm, how do I write an E? Then she'll say guh, guh, oh yeah, that's G. She'll write a G. Oh yeah, that's G. She'll write a G and E-G-L and maybe come up with an L. So EGLEGL is a phase three full alphabetic spelling. Full alphabetic because it spells all the sounds. But English doesn't work that way.
Speaker 3:So what has to happen is that kids have to move to phase four, which generally happens in the last half of first grade, and move to what's called automatic consolidated alphabetic spelling. So what they do is they consolidate letters into chunks, like syllable chunks, so eagle in that phase might be spelled E-G-U-L, g-u-l, and that's a tremendous, tremendous psychological advancement for kids. At the same time they are learning more and more words as brain words. So imagine the kids in a research-based spelling book by the end of first grade. Guess how many brain words that child should have. You don't have to say it out loud, but a child at that phase end of first grade moving into second grade, should have 300 plus brain words, words that they can automatically spell, brain words, words that they can automatically spell.
Speaker 3:And if the way we're teaching in kindergarten and first grade doesn't have most kids at the end of first grade with 300 plus brain words, then there is likely to be a need to re-evaluate. Know what's going on there, because that's what enables kids to something called self-teaching kicks in and they will pick up many. You don't have to teach all the words in the language. Of course you can't do that, but they will begin their brain architecture, will be able to self-teach from reading. They'll pick up many words by analogy to the words that they do know. So that's the important work that I have done in all my career and many others, including folks at the spelling folks who came out of the University of Virginia, spelling folks who came out of the University of Virginia, and also very important work in automatic word reading, coming from a separate line of research, the research done by Linnea Erie, which has been so powerful in leading the science of reading.
Speaker 3:And here's a quote from Linnea Erie. She says poor spellers do not develop into skilled readers. Spelling instruction must remain an important goal of teachers and schools, so important that we recognize that. She also says it's clear that students need explicit spelling instruction as well as explicit reading instruction, and what she's talking about there is decoding as well as phonics and encoding. And what she's also talking about there is that that part of instruction for early kids, the importance of these phases, shows that acquisition of reading architecture is reciprocal, that is, the phonics helps the spelling and the decoding helps the spelling and the encoding, the spelling helps the reading. And in fact many kids do learn to read, learn to decode, by going through these phases of invented spelling. So many kids will learn to read by going through these five phases.
Speaker 2:And I was going to ask you about those phases. I went through the letters training pretty recently and we talked about ARIE's word reading phases and they I mean when you talked through the phases of the spelling it sounds like they're very, very similar. I mean when you talked through the phases of the spelling.
Speaker 3:It sounds like they're very, very similar. They're absolutely aligned. They're exactly the same thing. Now there are some alternative theories of how spelling develops. This work, based on Gene and my work and others, and based on automatic word reading, based on Lanier Ery's work, which has dovetailed two lines of research, are literally supported by hundreds of science studies and cognitive psychology and even newer science. So it's all been very fun.
Speaker 3:And imagine, as kids are going through these phases. Here's how it would look in the classroom. You would have the kid beginning in kindergarten draw a picture of something he or she is interested in Maybe it's my pet, and maybe the kid draws a picture just a sketch, not art, but a quick picture of the cat and you talk about it, because bringing out the oral language is so important in all of this. What does your cat eat? Has he ever done anything funny? And kids are really having fun talking about their pets and their pictures, but they're also.
Speaker 3:This is kind of like planning the story. They're going to write and they're getting background knowledge to put in the story and they're getting background knowledge to put in the story and then, at whatever phase they're in, they write the story. And then there's another step. Another step is to have the teacher do the publication of the story. That is, the teacher writes a story in conventional English. So if the child wrote at the beginning of kindergarten this is Buzz, the teacher would write under it in correct spelling this is Buzz. And the child would learn to read back his or her own story. And they're thrilled to do that. Look, you know, it's easier to read because they wrote it, they have the background information for it, they're using their own language, no-transcript. Learn to spell without having to do anything with worksheets or, you know, memorizing or driving your parents crazy because they have to call out all those words every Thursday night. Whoops, let me readjust my mic there. Can you hear me okay?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, You're good.
Speaker 3:Oh, good, good.
Speaker 2:I have a question about that, thank you for.
Speaker 1:Sorry, oh, sorry, no, it's okay. I just wanted to say thank you for giving that practical example and thank you for naming too, that the other ways to teach spelling were really not effective because they land in the short-term memory versus the long-term memory. So I appreciate that being called out very much and I know that it brings up some things for me that I used to do, you know, when I was a teacher. I remember my first couple of years doing some of that stuff that might have landed in the short term memory. So thanks for giving me tools to use with my own child now that will help land those words in the long term memory. So thanks, richard.
Speaker 3:Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome. You know. There's one other point about this work that we're discussing that is often overlooked or not given the recognition that it needs. There may be as many as 10%, and some scientists say 2%, of kids who do have learning disability. That there is for reading. And the thing about these five phases is you can detect dyslexia if you're watching for the phases as early, even maybe kindergarten, but for sure as early as first grade. And that's so important because that's all about early intervention. So those red flag symptoms of dyslexia can be recognized much sooner. Too often, you know, kids aren't for learning disabilities aren't identified until third grade or fourth grade, and that's just too late. We need early intervention. So I always call spelling a dyslexia-specific intervention, so important that we pay attention to spelling.
Speaker 1:I want to make sure we get to Melissa's question from a minute ago, but what I know, can you share a couple of the red flags that you might see in the phases? Like what if I'm a teacher, what might I look for? And as kids, as I'm going through those phases with my students, and like, what should I look for as they're writing?
Speaker 3:Well, one thing you would look for is if they are in fact going in the phases that I described, from phase one to phase two to phase three. In phase three, suppose you have a child who is all over the place. That is, you see some phase one spellings, you see some phase two spellings. What you should see is the dominant strategy that they're using. So if you look at a lot of phase three writing, the dominant strategy should be that they are doing full alphabetic spelling. But if you see a conglomeration, then that's a red flag and also it shows us what to teach. If you are working in first grade with a first half of the year, you know there's certain patterns that no matter what reading program or phonics program you're using, there's certain patterns that have to be taught. For example, the CVC short vowel pattern is probably the most important pattern in English. Children normally will not spell that correctly in phase three because short vowels don't sound like the letter name that they're trying to spell. And another one is the long vowel, that syllable that ends in a V in words like no go or me, he.
Speaker 3:All of those are words that we should be seeing spelled correctly by the end of phase three as kids move into phase four, and if those aren't brain words, then that's a red red flag. Another red flag is how many words they're spelling correctly and how much they are struggling to get those words into long-term memory. If you have kids who are in phase four, there should be many more words in a two-page piece of writing or one-page story. Many more words should be spelled correctly than incorrectly, and so there again, that would be a red flag. Other red flags would include things like how the kids are pronouncing words. Are they showing phonological awareness, for example, or are they having certain when they articulate certain words? Do they mix up syllable sounds alumamon or alumamon you know, Are they mispronouncing it?
Speaker 3:Paschetti instead of spaghetti? You know those can be red flags as well. So it's so powerful in showing teachers what they need to teach and recognizing early on that kids who may have some processing difficulty with both sounds letter, sound, correspondence, decoding and encoding.
Speaker 2:That actually kind of gets to my question, which was you know I was the state steps you took us through are pretty. It's pretty simple. Like, as a teacher, I'd be like, yeah, I could, I could do that tomorrow with my students, right. But I think the hard part is knowing which words, and I was wondering if you had any practical advice of like where, what do you go for the right words to use for your students?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's such an important question and it's, it's a. It's it's what I've been doing really all my career, and that is providing teachers with a grade-by-grade spelling book curriculum. And so if you're skeptical about that, go to a research-based spelling textbook. You can Google my name and come up with one. You can Google my name and you come up with one and look at the table of contents and you'll see how very specific the words and also the lessons are for 20 minutes a day of spelling instruction.
Speaker 3:And it really is what we have not used as a result of whole language domination in many schools. Ken Goodman, for example, in what's Whole in Whole Language, a very powerful book, said kids don't need spelling books. He said you know, use that money for good children's literature. Of course we want good children's literature, but that notion of whole language has been debunked. Now I can talk about whole language. I was part of the movement. I studied with the late Ken and Yetta Goodman at the University of Arizona. I studied miscue analysis. The three queuing system have tremendous respect for all of the contributions whole language brought respect for teachers and equity for children, good children's literature all of that's so important. That came out of whole language.
Speaker 3:But here, three decades later, based on new cognitive science and neuroscience, there are things that we really do need to look at. I mean, after all, after three decades, shouldn't we be doing some different things, especially in light of the fact that so many of our kids a third of the kids can't read proficiently at fourth grade level? There's something wrong. There's something wrong with that system, and I would say to any teacher if your kids know 300 plus words at the end of first grade as brain words, keep doing what you're doing. If your kids in fourth grade take a fourth grade level spelling test and they are spelling on grade level, 90% of them are spelling on grade level. Keep doing what you're doing.
Speaker 3:But if not, then we need to reconsider what it is that we can do better, and I think teachers are passionate. They all want to have the tools that they need in order to be successful. But many teachers in the last couple of decades haven't been given these tools. They haven't been trained in the kind of knowledge about beginning reading, six-syllable types, even how to do handwriting, you know, with simplified handwriting language, and that's so important as well. So it's good, powerful work that we have ahead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I feel like it's work that has clear answers. There's a you know like this, or at least clear strategies, clear ways, this example that you provided to us today. You know with the activity the, the way that you've shared in your book, you know what are brain words if anybody wants to learn more about that and you know the direct connection between the phases of spelling and the word reading phases. There are very clear ways to approach some of these things that we have questions about as educators. So we're super grateful for your time today. I know we were coming to a close and we'd love to hear your advice for educators out there in the trenches doing this good spelling work.
Speaker 3:Well, my advice is just you know, keep passionate about what you're doing. We're so recognized as of COVID how very important essential teachers are. There's no one more essential than teachers, and you need our support and you need the tools and strategies to be successful. So I'm just thrilled to have been invited and I just want to, you know, thank every teacher in America and wish them well, because it's been a tough couple of years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and thank you so much. I feel like we could pick your brain forever. So thank you so much for sharing with us. We'll have to have you come back and do you want to share real quick that you were just interviewed for a documentary as well?
Speaker 3:real quick that you were just interviewed for a documentary as well. I was. I was just in new orleans to interview with a very important, a very important documentary that is being developed called the Truth About Reading. It is being produced by a famous Hollywood producer, Nick Naughton, and is supported by two very powerful foundations for reading the John Cochran work. John Cochran is a guy who wrote A Teacher who Couldn't Read and it's an incredible book. And Nora Chabazi, who probably you've had on your podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we actually had all three John, nora and Nick.
Speaker 3:They all came on together, so teachers may be familiar with their work. Her foundation is literacy, but LB.
Speaker 1:Ebley Yep Ebley.
Speaker 3:Evidence-based. Evidence-based.
Speaker 1:Literacy instruction.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, literacy instruction. I you know, being a dyslexic, I'm terrible with that, but I would recommend that all teachers who are listening to this just Google the truth about reading trailer and the trailers out and they can get a view of what's coming up. And it's very heart touching and hopeful about how we can change things in America and beyond to make literacy available for all children and especially powerful for kids who are struggling.
Speaker 1:Can't wait to see you in that.
Speaker 3:We'll link all this good stuff, yeah, good good, I hope I get a couple of segments. Who knows?
Speaker 1:We'll put in a good word for you. Thank you, oh good, good. Thank you so much for being here. We can't thank you enough. This was really illuminating. I know I learned so much and I wish that I had known some of this sooner, and we're just really grateful that you're here, Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Thank you, and thank you all of you folks who tuned in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you for listening. Literacy Lovers, remember we have a new episode out every Friday and we send a super helpful newsletter with follow-up content each Tuesday.
Speaker 2:Be sure to visit our website to subscribe to our newsletter and podcast. It's literacypodcastcom. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Twitter at Literacy Podcast.
Speaker 1:And please reach out with questions or ideas for podcast episodes. We love hearing from you, Melissa. What's our email address?
Speaker 2:Melissa and Lori at LiteracyPodcastcom.
Speaker 1:We are so glad you're here to learn with us.