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Research-Backed Strategies for Academic Talk with Jeff Zwiers

• Episode 217

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Episode 217
Have you ever wondered how to get your students talking in a way that builds deeper understanding? In this episode, we chat with Jeff Zwiers, author of Academic Conversations and Next Steps with Academic Conversations, about the power of authentic discussions in the classroom.

Here’s what you’ll learn:

  • 3 Key Features of Authentic Conversations: Building on ideas, clarifying and supporting, and using information gaps to spark curiosity.
  • Practical Strategies: How to use routines like Think-Pair-Share to foster meaningful discussions.
  • Building a Culture of Communication: Tips for helping students share opinions, argue effectively, and engage deeply.

This episode is packed with actionable ideas to help you create a classroom where every student’s voice matters. Tune in to discover how academic talk can boost participation, agency, and long-term success!

Resources




We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.

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Lori:

Do you ever feel like getting your students to share their ideas or engage in conversations is harder than it should be? You're not alone. We all want our classrooms to be spaces where students learn from each other, not just from us teachers.

Melissa:

We're so excited to have Jeff Zwiers on the podcast today. As a leading expert on academic conversations, he'll break down the key features of authentic communication and share simple strategies to enhance the academic talk routines you're already using in your classroom.

Lori:

Hi teacher friends. I'm Lori and I'm Melissa. We are two educators who want the best for all kids, and we know you do too.

Melissa:

We worked together in Baltimore when the district adopted a new literacy curriculum.

Lori:

We realized there was so much more to learn about how to teach reading and writing.

Melissa:

Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.

Lori:

Hi, Jeff. Welcome to the podcast. We can't wait to talk about academic conversation with you today. Looking forward to it.

Melissa:

All right. So, jumping right in, you have written a bunch of books and articles and all kinds of things about the importance of teaching kids to effectively communicate their ideas through academic talk or conversations, and specifically you've identified three key features of authentic conversations. I'll just list them really quickly. So they are purposeful building of ideas, clarifying and supporting and designing and leveraging information gaps. So can you just jump right in and explain what do those mean and, even more importantly, what do they look like in classrooms?

Jeff Zwiers:

You got a minute.

Lori:

We got plenty of time.

Jeff Zwiers:

Okay, well, you know, after quite a few years of basically observing classrooms and looking at things that were working and not working so well, and even just looking at regular human interaction, I kind of came up with those and it's a little there's a little bit simplified, but simple enough to keep in mind. All the time I was looking at what were kids thinking when they were answering a question, for example, whatever question it was about a text and started to think well, when it's connected to building up an idea, a larger idea than just here here's my answer to the question you get more language, you get more thinking. So I started to notice these patterns where, if there was something beyond just that moment of, okay, I'm going to make the teacher happy and answer a question, then things stick more and you actually get more, like I said, more language, more sentences out of the kids, and so, even though I've focused quite a bit on oral language and conversation, which I'll probably talk about quite a bit, I've also noticed that, you know, you get more language and thinking when you're reading, when you're writing, if you're questioning the text and saying, okay, I'm trying to build up a big idea from reading this text, and so you get that, that more interactivity. And so the building ideas is sort of that, that overarching goal or purpose. And then the two ways that people ask well, okay, how do you build up an idea? And even though these aren't the only two skills, these are two skills that have been around for a long time, but when you use them to build up an idea, then you're going to get more out of them, right? It's like if some kid answers a question and you say can you clarify that and is it why? Why are they clarifying it? Why are they supporting it? With an example, if a kid says okay, I guess I'll support it. Here's my one example. But if they're really trying to build up an idea for the other person, whether it's orally or if they're building it in their mind, then you're getting more again language and thinking out of it.

Jeff Zwiers:

And then, finally, the information gap piece comes. A lot comes mostly from language teaching, particularly second language teaching, but I realized it was so powerful for all language use and all content areas because, instead of just answering the question for points, they're actually providing information to someone who needs it. So, for example, an information gap is where someone has information but the other person or persons don't have it and need it or want it. So those are the kind of the conditions. So if you don't have that, if both people have the information, there really isn't a gap to bridge and there's no reason to use language.

Jeff Zwiers:

People go through the motions. You get kids doing that all the time right. I'll get my points. I'll say this even though I know you know it and I know you the whole pattern of IRE or IRF, where the teacher initiates a question, kids answer but the teacher knows the answer. So like, why am I telling you an answer you already know?

Jeff Zwiers:

Whereas, if we can get that to where it is, an authentic you know I use the word authentic a lot an authentic information gap, then you can get more language, usually get two, three, four more sentences right Often, instead of just the one word or the grunt or the half a sentence. So that's kind of and they all work together. When you think about I'll look at, I'll watch an activity, I'll watch a class, and sometimes there'll be two out of the three. But if they had that third feature right, whether it's an extra clarifying support scaffold or something like that, or the information gap was there where you know, kind of like a jigsaw A lot of jigsaws actually have the information gap, but they're often missing the other two, which is extra clarifying and supporting and also idea building. So that's kind of where you know where they all work together. They feed into not just conversations but they feed into other uses of language as well.

Melissa:

Yeah, you had me thinking of classrooms. Hopefully most classrooms don't look like this anymore, but back when I was in school, the way that conversation usually went was like a teacher had a question in mind with an answer, like you said, and you called on students until you got to the right answer. Right, they just like try it, try it again, try it again until you get to the right answer. And I think that can often be like the way it goes in school, like students are ready to just, or they think they just need to give the right answer, and so I like the things you're thinking about or you're talking about here which get to that, like you said, authentic conversation, like reasons to really talk and not just give that right answer back and forth. That often can happen in school.

Jeff Zwiers:

Yeah, and I mean along those lines. I have several videos where kids are sharing their personal information which in some circles recently, you know, people say, well, that's not text based. You know we can't test that. But I push back really hard and I say, you know, these some people call personal connections, I call them personal building blocks, just to kind of keep in line with the building metaphor of building up an idea. And so, you know, there's this one video where the kids are going through, they're kind of building up an idea that I'm not sure they know they are, but they are, and one girl goes to the text and says notice, right here in this text, which is really, you know, this is we're very happy about, right, using the text is. But then after that, and kids are like, okay, yeah, I had that too, I had the. But then this kid shares a personal story about his grandma or something like that.

Jeff Zwiers:

That relates very well to the power of music. I think it was the, the video. And and that's when, all of a sudden, you everyone like, not only at the table with the kids, but also when I'm, you know, presenting and I use this video, they're all listening much more intently than when the girl was pointing to the text. They're like, oh yeah, I like that, that's great. I know we have to do that. But then you actually listen to this kid and no one's ever heard about his grandma in this particular story and so he shares, you know, twice or three times as much as he might if it were just pointing to the text and saying, yeah, here's a, here's a here's text that supports our idea. So I mean, I'm just. What I'm saying is like you want both. You want the school or the text building blocks, but you also need those personal connections and building blocks which create that information gap, right or bridge that information, because there's almost always authentic information gaps if you're talking about the personal stuff.

Lori:

That's such a powerful story. That helps me a lot too, because I feel like I have the kind of this old way sometimes in my head of thinking about, like personal connections. I remember like having those sentence stems like and students would say I would like to make a personal connection, and then there's and it was very trite, you know, and and and forced almost, and um, it was missing. The authentic piece that you're talking about and that I think is, you know, when you're building those personal building blocks, that's the piece, that is the missing link, that authenticity, especially because that personal connection, like the kind of forced or trite kind, often, I think, took us much more off course than it did leading us into the text. And it sounds like from this short story that you're sharing, that this story really deepened students' knowledge about the text and about this big idea that they were trying to get at.

Jeff Zwiers:

Yeah, I mean again this particular classroom. I'm not sure if they were, because you almost have to really hyper-focus on idea building and that has to be more obsessive than a lot of people want to go for. But the more that they, for example, the more that those other kids are realizing. You know what. I'm building up this idea and this boy who's sharing, you know this our group member who's sharing is helping me build up this, this idea. That's coming from this text. Maybe it started with the text, but then they're going to listen more Because, I mean, one of the things that I, you know, we see it in adults and kids all over is and even in my training sessions right, is that mentality of someone's just sharing over in the side of the room and I'm thinking about other things?

Jeff Zwiers:

Right and so.

Jeff Zwiers:

But if everyone realizes that they're sharing to help others build up an idea and they're listening to help themselves build up an idea and maybe even make a little connection and add even more to it, then you've got that whole class true conversation, not just a popcorn session, because if no one's listening, then it's a popcorn session and the teacher just kind of, you know, nods their head and says Okay, good job, and that's it.

Jeff Zwiers:

So I think, the more they have that. You know, I call it an idea building mindset, where I'm helping you, you're helping me. This is why we're here, this is why we're reading this text, this is part of it, and we're going to do this tomorrow as we're going to continue to build this tomorrow and maybe the next day and maybe the rest of my life. Right, we might not have as many texts in the next unit on this, but it's something that should stick rather than just be the mindset of OK, this is school, I answer a few questions, I get through, I get through the school day, I do the test on, you know, in two weeks or whatever, and then I move on and we do something else, right, so, so so it's that, that that building overall of ideas that you know, at least I'm I'm trying to promote in settings.

Melissa:

Yeah, that's what I was thinking with your example, Laurie, was like you know, the purpose there was just to share a connection, Right? But the other students didn't see why should they care about this connection? Right? It wasn't building to that like, oh, I'm listening to you because it's helping me understand something better, it was just you're just sharing a connection, so it's not. That's not as helpful for sure.

Lori:

Yeah Well, when we think about academic conversations sometimes it's like an activity and I think really like from reading your book, jeff, and reading your work, it's really helped me kind of switch gears to think of it as more like really just deeply embedded into the practice of teaching. And I know that, like teachers listening probably already incorporate some academic talk activities in their classrooms, or academic talk I don't know what do we want to say, not activities, academic talk structures, routines in their classrooms, and I'm just thinking how can they enhance these so that it feels more authentic and that it's integrated?

Jeff Zwiers:

Yeah, that's a lot of what I try to do, right, there's, and I, when I'm working with teachers and districts, I kind of I don't know if I want to divide it too much but I kind of split it up into structured interactions. I usually start with that because, you know, look at a pair share, for example, or think pair share. You know there are quite a few things that we can do to I think, pair a share which is actually manageable, right, that can make them twice or three times as good. So maybe they're twice as long but they might be three times as good. I'm just kind of making those numbers up. But these things, like what I just mentioned, those three features. So I will tell teachers, you know, or I'll tell kids, let's say, and I do a lot of model lessons in classrooms and I'll tell kids, okay, we're about to do a think-pair-share and I don't know how often. You know how much time you need to think about this. We'll give you a little bit of time to think. But there's a couple things we want to do. First is you are listening to build up an idea Whenever your partner talks, and then you are talking to help your partner build up this idea and I might point to the idea on the wall or whatever just to remind them. You're not just saying one sentence and then saying I disagree or I agree or whatever it's. You know, this is a building, this is a chance to build up an idea. So I tell them that just directly and then I'll say, and I want to make sure that when you're listening, I want you to ask one clarify or one support question, and those questions I actually have hand motions. If you're just listening you won't be able to see, but I'll describe the hand motions and they're pretty quick. So the clarify is I put my two hands together and kind of thumbs together and then I kind of open up my fingers in front of my eyes. So it's kind of like you know, opening up, clarifying and those two sentence frames are is I put five fingers on one hand up and I put my palm kind of a flat palm like a tabletop on top of it and that's for support. And the support questions are just, can you give an example of that and why? So with those four stems kids can go a long way.

Jeff Zwiers:

One of the actual biggest problems with lack of talk and conversation stopping or think pair shares ending way too soon is that kids don't know how to continue the conversation with some of these pretty simple prompts, and so, or they'll think it's just takes one, like oh, I only have to do that once, right? Well, in a conversation we say that all the time. We might say you know, can you give an example three times? Or what do you mean by that? Four times? Right, and so, just, these are conversation extenders as well. So, even though pair share, you don't want it to be a full-on 10-minute conversation, I know that, but these are ways to practice.

Jeff Zwiers:

So in the structured interactions there are really good chances to practice these moves and you can just say you know, every time you hear, especially and this is a biggie if you hear one sentence or half a sentence or one word, you have to ask a clarifying or support question. Now, it might not always be, you know, true, there might be, like it's just, it's real simple. Okay, the answer. You know eight divided by four is two. You don't really have to clarify that, but most of the time you know, when kids say one sentence, especially if it's kind of an abstract, you know thesis or topic sentence type thing, you can ask one of those questions and get a lot more out of it.

Jeff Zwiers:

So I think you know, the more we zoom in on especially these interactive activities like a pair share, oh, and also the third part, right, so I think I covered building ideas, clarifying support and then the filling information gaps, that's more on me, the teacher, to make sure that they're not just sharing the same information.

Jeff Zwiers:

So I don't say, okay, we all read this story and share with your partner who the main character is, like really, yeah, I mean, I know that you know the answer, so I don't have to talk much and you know that.

Jeff Zwiers:

I know that, I know that you know, and so we don't really have to talk or listen much. So we really want to make sure they've had two texts. They have maybe two stories, two somethings, two math problems, two whatever, or even in their personal lives they have some different examples from their personal backgrounds that they can share that are different, their personal, you know backgrounds that they can share that are different. And then they do that. You know one sentence is not enough. You know it's always like two or more sentences and usually you know teachers are pleasantly surprised and even the kids are like, okay, I like this extra stuff done to the pair share because I get to know my partner better or it's allowing me. I do like to talk, but if I don't have the skills or tools, or even these simple ones, to do it, doesn't happen.

Lori:

Oh, jeff, I love thinking of this clarifying and supporting and having these sentence structures and then the information gap too, and thinking about how all this is in service of building ideas, because I think, as you were speaking, I was thinking okay, so why are we doing this routine? Why am I having students talk right now? What is this structure serving a purpose for? And I think, when we think of it in service of the bigger picture, that does really help not only place where and when I want students to have these experiences, but also what I am hoping for in terms of the outcome of building some more ideas here and what they're in service of. So they might be in service of preparing for a Socratic seminar, or might be in service of preparing for a writing task or both or many other things. So I love thinking about it with like that kind of laser-focused big idea in mind.

Jeff Zwiers:

And the examples you shared were really helpful. Yeah, and even that, let me be your example of preparing for the Socratic seminar. That Socratic seminar also is meant to build up an idea, right. So kids realize it's the test, the essay. These are not the be-all, end-all. The points are not really the end. We will give points and that's kind of secondary, but the primary purpose for what we're doing. There's two primary purposes. One is to build up an idea in our head and I'll give some examples in a second because I might want some of those and the secondary purpose would be to communicate that idea to others in a powerful way. So it's also us as teachers being open to. Now, let's say, a teacher like I'm not taking away my test, but maybe adding something.

Jeff Zwiers:

That's not an essay, because kids don't like essays either, but something that's a little more of a creative way to communicate your unique idea. Right, it can't be the same idea as everyone else, even if you have, like you know, photosynthesis is a way to produce food, you know, by plants or whatever that idea about. That idea might be similar there, but the presentation and the structure of it, how it's built, might have some personal examples, and there's plenty of different plants out there and trees that can become these interesting building blocks that you don't know about, right? So it doesn't have so that top, what I call the top building block of the idea statement or the abstract statement or the abstract, that might be the same, but the building is not the same, and so so I think that's, you know, thinking about it in those two ways, and it's not like this is brand new, right? People, kids, have been building up ideas and they've been doing projects that are really cool and fun and communicate. It's just, I think we need more of that and a little more conscious, you know, focus on, hey, you are building up an idea. This is why I brought this text in.

Jeff Zwiers:

It's not just to cover standards one by one, is to cover these random standards just to check them off. Kids do not care about standards, right, they might care, some will care about the points, but then it's the kids who don't care about the points and don't care about the standards that we're kind of most concerned about. Idea examples, just in a nutshell, would be, you know, like the photosynthesis example. Some of them are just like it's important to be honest, right, themes that come from novels, memories make us human animals adapt to survive, right? Some of these just high level ideas or concepts or claims there's also controversial, you know. There's arguments which we can get to in a bit, but arguments are also the big ideas. Like there's two claims on each side and we're deciding which one weighs more. So I can get to that in a little bit. But if you want more on, I think I have lists of ideas somewhere and appendices or something like that, so I can I can find those and send them out.

Melissa:

Well, we would love to share those Absolutely. Yeah, I'm wondering if I want to back up a little bit when we were talking about the turn in talks or think pair shares, and one thing you mentioned that I used to do with my students and loved was stronger and clearer. Can you explain that very simple take on the, you know, think pair shares as well?

Jeff Zwiers:

Yeah, I mean, like you're saying, it's kind of a modification of both the pair share, but also a give one, get one. You know, which you've probably heard about, and it's it's it's sort of a give one, get one soup souped up on steroids or like like a think pair share. It's basically threehares in a row, and each time, though, the kids borrow, well, first of all they get practice. Let's say, in the first pair-share they get to practice. It might come out really wonky, unorganized, not a whole lot. The first draft, the first draft, it's an oral first draft. The first draft, the first draft, is I call it an oral first draft, um, and then the second one, and the trick here is, between first and second and second and third, the teacher, pretty much every time, has to say this has to be stronger and clearer, and maybe there's a little time for note-taking, if you know, if, if you can fit it in just something, because if, if you don't do that, they say the same thing each time and it becomes just a give one, get one Three times, and so, yeah, three times. So not that that's bad, right, but if we can get a little more out of it, better right.

Jeff Zwiers:

What we really want to do is have kids practice their speaking, practice their presenting of their idea. Usually it's an idea level question. It's a big enough question, it's not just a simple little thing. So they practice speaking and then they read the other person's eyes, they listen to any questions that come back like, well, what do you mean by this? So if I say something to Melissa the first time and you say, well, what do you mean by that? And I can tell you really don't understand it, I clarify it for you. And then in my second partnership maybe I'm with Lori, then I don't use the first way because it doesn't work with humans, and so I go the second way that you you started nodding your head and you said, no, I get it, so I go with that way. So then you know, it gets a little better with Lori. And then maybe my third partner I've started to really and then I get ideas from both of you because you have shared with me too, so I add those. That's why it becomes stronger. Stronger is the more of the content, the examples, and then the clear would be anything I do with language or organization of the message. Clear would be anything I do with language or organization of the message. So I don't, you know it's.

Jeff Zwiers:

You don't want to heap too too many tasks on kids, but what happens. What's nice about the brain and the language use is, the more we are face to face with someone who we can tell is kind of responding, understands or not, the more the brain kind of gets used to okay. This is what I got to do to communicate. But if we don't allow that face-to-face time and this is three pair shares in a row I know it's tough to even pull off one pair share in a lot of you're.

Jeff Zwiers:

One of your goals is to really get more kids in front of each other and talking, even if it's not perfect and I always tell people even the first five times it is not going to be perfect Kids are like what. I have never done this before in my life. But after they get used to it and they start getting to know kids I mean part of this is also relationship building in the classroom, right, getting to know kids. I mean part of this is also relationship building in the classroom, right. Social skills and relationship building, because you don't get it from whole class discussions or even small groups, right, some of the kids that we're most concerned about. They do not get that kind of talk and listening practice in a group of four. So some of it is also, you know, kind of moving kids into. It's a little bit uncomfortable. Most of us I mean most of the people in the, even the teachers in the trainings they don't want to turn to a partner and they don't want to say things twice or three times. They don't want to stand up, but after they do they're really happy about it. Right, they get to know some of their people and so there's just a lot of positives from that particular activity.

Jeff Zwiers:

And imagine doing it two, three, four times a week over the course of years, what that does for you.

Jeff Zwiers:

I mean I often tell people a pair share, one pair share, you might listen in and you're not impressed. Right, it's like it's just one little snippet of time, but over time, over a year, you might not even see it this year and you might not see it with these kids, because these kids might move on. But over the course of the school is really pushing for, you know, building up this face-to-face practice time, especially on, you know, academic-ish topics. They don't always have to be on academic topics, but then you're starting to build up that set of skills because it only comes from practice. It's a little bit like a sport. You can't just sit in a classroom quietly the whole time and learn about basketball and then go out and expect to be an awesome basketball player. But I think that's kind of what we've been doing to kids, right? Oh, our reading and writing scores are really low. We have to spend, you know, six hours a day on reading and six hours a day on writing when you know and the talking is just going to be shoved aside.

Lori:

I love thinking about too, like you didn't say it in this way, but this idea of failure, like we need to be able to. What I'm hearing you say is, like this example stronger and clear. The first time is not going to go so great and then the second time is going to probably also be a little bit challenging, but we need to fail in order to learn. Here, and in this case, failure is teaching kids like it's okay, it's okay to kind of fumble around a little bit, and I love that you broke it down Like stronger is the content and the examples. The stronger is the content, examples, the clear is the organization of the message, so that we can help kids see, like I actually am really good at providing some content, some examples I'm kind of struggling with getting my message across and so we can, like give them some concrete feedback and help them with some sentence stems, with some specific structures to support them, so that they have tools to use to improve.

Lori:

Just like you said, just like a sport right, when you're teaching that free throw, there's an acronym for it. I don't know what it is, but there's an acronym to teach that. So we're helping them build that. I think it's beef or something. We're helping them learn it up. Learn it up.

Jeff Zwiers:

Exactly Well, and I have a good. I have a good example Also, another video where this girl they're sharing animal adaptations. She shares something about claws in the first, in the first pair, and then the second pair you in the video you don't see it but the other girl, her partner, shared something about eyesight of these birds. They were looking at a lot of birds of prey and so she shared with her second partner about eyesight because she got it from her first partner but she didn't share about the claws. And then in third partner she starts sharing about the claws and the eyesight. And then a kid asked her well, what about? You know how do owls use their talons or something like that? She hadn't used the word talons yet but she used it a couple times in her answer with that third, you know, with that third partner. So even though she probably knew it back here it wasn't part of her. You know, speaking vocabulary, normal speaking vocabulary, until she kind of heard it and then responded and it wasn't in a full class stressful situation. So again, it's still kind of messy and it's going to be messy and, like you said, I put failures in quotes here. But it's a messy business.

Jeff Zwiers:

But the other nice thing about Stronger and Clear. It actually is a kind of a small example of what we do in life. Right, you know, over time it might be this week and then I have a conversation next week, next week, but we do this. Every time we talk with someone, we're trying to be clear. Every time we talk with someone, we're trying to be clear, and I think that's the thing that is sometimes missing. Is that? No, you know, every time you talk to someone, your goal should be to be clear. No one purposely muddies up there. You know, if they really want their message across, they don't purposely muddy it up or limit it Right, especially if I want to get my message across.

Melissa:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jeff Zwiers:

Oh and sorry. Other adaptations would be kids can use you know other languages. They don't have to you know, it doesn't have to be in English. This is about communication period. So if they're going to draw something, act it out, use other languages, emphasize their you know, stress certain words or syllables. I don't look up at the board, the wall. I mean it's all about hey, I'm trying to get this idea across, I'm trying to improve, you know, I'm trying to build it up, as I'm listening to you especially and I'm trying to help you build it up this whole time.

Jeff Zwiers:

So it's really about communication rather than just a you know a little activity

Melissa:

loving all of these ideas, and I'm thinking back to my classroom, and I used to. I loved doing discussions with my class, but I know sometimes they would be awesome, right, I was like this is a great discussion, and then other times they would not go so well and sometimes I felt like it was like the structure, like how I set it up, like whether they were talking to partners or a mix and mingle or a Socratic seminar, like something about that was off, or sometimes I felt like I was not asking the right questions. So I'm just looking to you for, like, what kind of tips can you give to teachers to make sure they have more of those successful times with these classroom discussions and less of those ones that don't go so well?

Jeff Zwiers:

That's a big question. I don't know if I can help you in the past there, but and I don't know again, that's why I'm stalling is because it is a. It's every. The reason is every kid, every classroom and everyone you know most every teacher knows this are different every year, and so a classroom discussion is one of the most like, let's say, a productive for everyone.

Jeff Zwiers:

Classroom discussion is one of the most challenging things that can happen. So I mean a couple of things that have worked and might work would be break them up into pairs every few minutes or so, because a full on and I understand you could have a nice long 10 minute discussion. That's really about deep topics. But the more kids break up into pairs and process something, whether it's whatever question comes up, the more they're going to actually think, because there's going to be kids half the kids that'll probably be checking out at any given moment. So you don't want that One would be again.

Jeff Zwiers:

I'll backtrack a little bit the idea of building mindset that everyone has. Hey, you guys in this classroom we're going to have a classroom discussion for five minutes and we're going to build up this idea or we're going to decide which idea to build up right, something like that, where it's or there's an argument and we're going to build up both sides and then we're going to decide which side weighs more and I'll try to help out, but I don't want to do all the work as a teacher. So I would say, making sure that a debility mindset breaking up into pairs about every three to four minutes just because of the attention span and that includes high school, right, it's not like you're saying that, yes, it's not like they're older and suddenly, and so that includes high school, and then I often try to have them do something.

Jeff Zwiers:

You know, I'm not really into big on really long word based notes, but some kind of keeping track, maybe filling in a graphic organizer that I have, one that kind of looks like a building where the big ideas on the top, so filling in what they think are both big and medium size and even maybe small building blocks. So if, like, a really major example comes up, like that's a big building block, you know, and I'll give you a little bit of time to fill it in, but always with the, I'm trying to and this is idealistic thinking, but always thinking this idea that you guys are building here, that you're writing down, this is for you, this is not for points. You're not going to turn this in. I hope you stick it in the back of your binder and you keep building it during this year and next year and the year after, but this is for you. Okay, I'll give you a little bit of time beforehand, and this is another strategy for that discussion.

Jeff Zwiers:

Fill in some building blocks, both clarify and support building blocks that you think you might want to share. Right, so taking those, and so then more kids have a chance and now share it with a partner, share a couple Like. Then they get their talk time and then the partner you know, hey, partner, validate, show, you know, highlight some of the things that you hear so that maybe your partner will share them. Right, I'm not going to say, you know, I don't want you to raise your hand and say, oh Jose has this really nice idea here, necessarily, because sometimes that puts them on the spot. But having those little scaffolds, the notes, the full-on 10-minute, 15-minute discussion, I know they happen, they're beautiful but they're hard to come by and then you still don't know what half the kids are thinking, because you can't have all 30 kids share.

Lori:

Yeah Well, it's also unrealistic in a lesson to be taking 10 to 15 minutes of a lesson unless you have prepared for it and it's something very specific, like you're building up to a fishbowl or you're building up to a Socratic seminar. The way you would build up to those would be what you described. Right, you're talking every few minutes and then you're writing as well, so you can, like, the teacher is transferring the learning to the students by having students talk and then students are tracking their own thinking and learning by having them write. So you're going back and forth between those two, so students can really internalize what they're they're thinking and what they're learning.

Jeff Zwiers:

Right, and, and emphasizing again back to that personal building block, I mean it's just saying you know, if you think we know all this stuff, then don't share it. If it's just something that you know, it's just something that you think you want to highlight from the book that you really liked and why you think it's important, that would be shareable, right. But if you're just answering questions, just to participate and get your participation points, we don't really want it. We want stuff that helps us all build up ideas, right, and so that I know that's idealistic thinking.

Jeff Zwiers:

I also apply this a lot to writing and I say this rubric is not for points, this rubric, I want you to think of the rubric as a guide to help you communicate through your writing better, and the more we can get kids obsessed with that. I know this is idealistic, okay, because I know some kids are going I don't care about communicating, I just want to get my points, but the more we can push for, hey, you know this is going to help you write and writing is important in life, and the better you communicate through writing, you know, the better your life is going to be, and so, and you have some great ideas that are unique, you know for. So we really want to know. You know, I want them to be as clear as possible to whoever's reading it, not just me, the teacher. I am going to read it, but you know what I mean, so I was just trying to get beyond that.

Jeff Zwiers:

Okay, here's a rubric what I got to do for points, how many, I mean, how many? How many of us have heard? How many paragraphs does it have to be?

Melissa:

Oh yeah.

Jeff Zwiers:

How many?

Lori:

sentences in each paragraph.

Jeff Zwiers:

How many words in each sentence. But part of that's also on us. It's saying it's it's it's having kids come up with these unique ideas that they need, slash, want to share. That, like this, is a unique idea. This is really cool and that's why sometimes you will get, I mean, kids who are somewhat interested in stories. They will write a story because they know that no one else has written this story, so there will be a lot in that story.

Jeff Zwiers:

But then if you get a five paragraph essay you know some expository essay you're not going to get much because you just they just think, well, you already know all this. Right, the teacher, teacher, you already know all this. I'm just, I'm just covering my points here. So it's really shifting that somehow to no, no, no, writing is communication. It is an extremely powerful way and I know you've got AI out there, right, I know you can just put a little prompt into AI, but AI does not have the personal building blocks that you have, and so, yeah, you could come up with some generic, you know textbook-y description of this and break it into five paragraphs and turn it in. I know that, but that's not what I want. I want your unique idea with your personal building blocks in there. They still might use AI, but at least it's a little more personal and at least they have to process it. They can't just okay, I'll just print it up, turn it in and never even look at it, right?

Melissa:

Jeff, earlier you brought up opinions and I'm thinking, like you know, asking students to share their opinions and all the why. That seems like it would be a pretty powerful, like you're talking about, like a reason to do this, a reason to talk, a reason to write, if they're sharing their, if they're writing and supporting an opinion, versus, like you said, just kind of telling something back to the teacher that they already know. Do you want to talk a little bit about the opinions, telling something back to the teacher that?

Jeff Zwiers:

they already know. Do you want to talk a little bit about the opinions? Well, yeah, I'll lead into that with this concept of intrigue that I've been kind of playing with slash pushing the last few years. The nice thing about arguments and I'll use the term arguments instead of opinion right now, but the nice thing about arguments is that you don't know what the result is. It's a little bit again back to basketball, a sport. It's a little bit like a story. It's a little bit like a science, like a science phenomenon or experiment. You just don't know exactly what the ending is, and it actually gets you a little more interested.

Jeff Zwiers:

I mean, we're you know the term engagement comes up all the time right in classrooms, and sometimes it's not that engaging. You go to learn this standard, this standard, this standard. You've got to learn it. You'll answer a test question on it, and so none of that seems very intriguing to me. But the nice thing about it is if we can get argumentation in there not that you can't always fit it in there, but if it can fit into certain things then you have this competition and you don't know who's going to win, right, or which side is going to win, and you might decide this side wins. I might decide this side wins, right, and it's okay as long as we can argue why. And so what I've been trying to push and it's been really well received and teachers are liking it is this argument balance scale, which you can imagine what it looks like it's just a cross beam and then you build up each side. So one side is a claim like the internet is making us smarter, right, yes, no, you build up the yes side, you build up the no side, and then you have examples from texts that you've read or your own personal life, that kind of thing, and then we would do this together. There's a group of two, group of three, and then we would decide which side weighs more. So the catch here is that most kids are used to being asked right away what's your opinion? And I tell them I say I don't want to know your opinion At the end, at a certain point, either when you write it down, or we have a discussion at the end of this unit and it's still that might not be your final opinion on this matter for your life. So you know our whole lives.

Jeff Zwiers:

We are kind of doing this up and down with the balance scale, depending on new information that we receive. So be open. In fact, I tell this a lot. I say music to my ears is when a kid says which side should we build up first? So what that means is it means that they parked their initial. Everyone has an initial opinion. I have one about everything, but I park it back here, right, and I say this is an initial opinion, and it seems like it sounds like we're going to be doing some building here on both sides right Now.

Jeff Zwiers:

If it's just like, oh, it's your opinion on this and we're never going to revisit it again, okay, well then, we, you know, but for the most part, I would want a kid to say wait, I don't know enough about each side of this. I need to build it up, I need to read some stuff, we need to talk, I need to watch videos, whatever, and so just that being able to you know, instead of saying, well, my uncle said this last night, so that's why I think this is the right, you know. So it's building up both sides, and you can imagine like when let's say let's start with so, melissa and I are building up both sides of that question. Is the internet making us smarter. And so again, we're not saying which side we think yet. We were just saying, okay, let's build up the yes side first, and then we share and when she shares her stuff, I share my stuff and we put it in there.

Jeff Zwiers:

And then we decide what are the largest building blocks. We kind of, you know, prioritize or evaluate what are the and some are like stupid, like my uncle, I might even throw that block out, right, because my uncle's not an expert on the internet, so I might throw that out. But still we have the solid side. And then we have this other side and then we decide now, melissa and I, now you don't have to decide in that first part of the activity with the partner you've been with, you can say, okay, now bring all that stuff over to another partner who you haven't talked to yet, and then have a little more of an academic conversation.

Jeff Zwiers:

I would call it because then we haven't done all this processing. You could do it either way, but I usually try to have that second partner. You know, because they haven't, there's a little more information gap, they're not expecting all this, all the stuff. And then at the end I say you know what we might differ because we evaluate, we have different values and so it's okay to have, but you got to explain why you have that value or why not, and it can't be because your uncle said so. So it's a way to apprentice them into what is, you know, kind of what's what is acceptable, kind of acceptable logic out there, even though we're having some problems, you know, with that right now, big problems with argumentation and, you know, backing up things with evidence and all that we still, you know, in schools. We have to keep on pushing for this as objective, as unbiased as possible, weighing of, you know, and the parking, like I say, parking that initial opinion back until you have all the information.

Lori:

Yeah, I'm envisioning too, like as a teacher, I would be putting these up all around the room as visuals, right Related to what we've learned about, so that, as we're modeling throughout the year, like, oh, we're learning more, oh, let's add to it. Oh, we're learning more, let's add to it, and I think kids can rally around that idea of continuous learning, like they're super pumped when something comes up to talk and share about that they've learned before. Right, they can't wait to tell, tell you all of that, um, and so just to kind of continue that idea, I think that's really a cool way to think about it and a great um, a great teaching tool too, to have that balance scale. So, um, we'll definitely share that. That's great.

Jeff Zwiers:

Yeah, and especially if you have the room and you're I mean, I know you run out of room pretty quickly in classrooms, but some of that's prioritization right. Are kids using that section of the wall right now? How often are they looking up at it, using it, especially if there's like a little tiny print up there? I don't see a lot of kids standing up and reading, so I might have it up there for a while and then I say, okay, well, let's put a another, a different visual or graphic up there.

Lori:

I think that this also kind of gets us to where we wanted to ask you about the advantages and the the research around academic talk. So we, you know, we know that there's so many things to do in a school day. We realize that sometimes academic talk does end up getting cut right, like writing academic talk, things that take a little bit longer. But we want to hear from you, from your perspective, why is it worth it to invest more time into academic conversations and what are the benefits for students?

Jeff Zwiers:

Yeah, I did this. I was with several groups here and there and you know we talked about what are the advantages and some groups came up with 30 or 40 advantages of that time. Whatever, that amount of time is fuzzy because a lot of research fuzzy in a good way and then also fuzzy in a bad way. But some of the research will look at test scores, right, they'll say, okay, well, this classroom, even though it's hard to even keep track of how much and the quality and quantity of talk, is really hard to come by, especially on a large scale. But even the ones that have done that, they found, you know they found positive results. But again, there's so many variables in educational research it's really hard to keep track of. You know, these schools because of the talk, that direct relationship, because of the talk, and again, we don't know the quality of it, did it influence these test scores? And then I said, okay, whether or not they influenced the test scores, let's pull back a little bit because most research is actually connected to test scores, unfortunately.

Jeff Zwiers:

But some of the other research that isn't they've looked at. They've interviewed students, they've interviewed teachers and they've just seen that the overall. You know several things. One is, kids stay in school the more relationships they have and the better relationships they have with others they feel, even if they're not doing great in their classes, right? Or if they're struggling and particularly multilingual students who, especially in secondary, are struggling with the language demands, but they tend to, especially if there's more social activities, like we're talking about, they tend to stay in school longer and attend more. And so not only that, and then there's the even harder to measure pieces which would be inside the student's mind, right, the student agency is huge, whenever you you know, yeah, you'll get some student agency from you know, getting a good grade or getting good marks from the teacher or even teacher validation.

Jeff Zwiers:

But when you get multiple students validating, valuing what you're saying right, just like every day, I mean it's not like. It's not like you have a lot of time for the kid to write down whatever, and then a peer editor says, oh, great, great job, but a pair share can be enough to build up that student confidence, that student agency. Like, oh, I have stuff to say and I can say it and I can communicate it, even if it's not perfect English, it doesn't matter, because I've got these, you know, people who you know are supporting me, valuing me, and they're using some of my ideas that I'm sharing from my background or from my, you know, personal preferences or whatever, and so that's kind of the powerful piece that isn't really. You know, there aren't a lot of research studies on that because it's really hard to, again, it's hard to get inside kids' minds and talk about confidence, agency. And then, of course, social skills, which, when you look at whether I don't know how much it matters, but if you look at a lot of the preferences, the top three, whatever characteristics that people are looking for in a new hire and this is, you know, whether it's right away or down the line, it's communication skills. And so they often say I can teach you the content here in two weeks, right, but I am not going to teach you how to relate to people or how to communicate with others or how to just have a.

Jeff Zwiers:

I often use the example of a job interview where, you know, the interviewer asks and says so, you know, why do you want to work here? And then, let's say, the student or the interviewee says oh, because I heard it's a really good place to work. And then nothing. So it's that one sentence answer. That is not enough.

Jeff Zwiers:

Out in the world it might be enough sort of in a classroom, you know, because we're looking for these short one-ers, but then, and even with a teacher, will often ask a follow up. Oh, what do you mean by that? Where'd you hear that? But that's not going to happen out in the world. They don't want to ask you those follow up. Quite. You have to know that. You have to, you know, say that second sentence or that third sentence in that fourth sentence. You have to be able to communicate and know what is expected. Now you don't want to overdo it either and go on to a full-on novel. You know that. So it's really knowing that right, amount right. And then also not just that, but the facial features, the smiling, the warmth, the back channeling.

Lori:

You know which would be like you know saying oh yeah, great, uh-huh yeah, oh yeah, like say more, those kinds of little things that actually end up adding up when it comes to face-to-face communication. If I were to be working with a student and they're doing that one sentence, okay, so they need some prompting to get to that next piece, to give a little bit more. But so helpful, and I love the adult context of it because it does make such a difference when we think about it as adults and how that translates into the real world. That's a great example. Well, jeff, this has been amazing. I'm wondering is there anything else that we didn't talk about today that you think is really important for our listeners to know about?

Jeff Zwiers:

Not really. I just I think. I mean the only thing I would say is that believe in the messiness and the loudness of the interactions, but believe that even in the moment they might not see, like you might have three jokers in the back corner messing around but then all these other kids are talking. So just, even though it's messy, believe in the process of having kids talk to one another and really they will thank you in the end. They might not directly thank you, really they will thank you in the end. They might not directly thank you, but they'll thank you in the end for pushing them to talk.

Jeff Zwiers:

You know to engage in high quality and high quantity of talk. So I think that's all I can. You know, even though it's not in the curriculum. That's another challenge is, I know fitting it in is not easy, but it is going to be worth it in the long run, especially over multiple years. You know, if kids don't just have it one year but go to a second year and oh, you do this too, oh, okay, whatever. And then, but little by little, you know, over three or four years, suddenly they're talking way more. I kind of look at it. You know like way more if they're saying two, three, four sentences in a pair share versus one sentence, over time it really adds up. So a lot of this really adds up over time, even though you don't always see necessarily in test scores or necessarily in that one short amount of time.

Melissa:

Well, we cannot thank you enough for sharing all of this great information, having such a good conversation about conversations. You know I read your book and used everything things from your book in academic conversations years and years ago, and I have your new book right here that I'm digging into next steps with academic conversations and I'm just very thankful for you coming on to share some of some of those things with us today. Thank, you.

Jeff Zwiers:

It's been fun my pleasure.

Melissa:

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Lori:

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Melissa:

Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests of the Melissa and Lori Love Literacy Podcast are not necessarily the opinions of Great Minds PBC or its employees.

Lori:

We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to learn with us.