Melissa & Lori Love Literacy ™
Melissa & Lori Love Literacy™ is a podcast for teachers. The hosts are your classroom-next-door teacher friends turned podcasters learning with you. Episodes feature top literacy experts and teachers who are putting the science of reading into practice. Melissa & Lori bridge the gap between the latest research and your day-to-day teaching.
Melissa & Lori Love Literacy ™
Building Better Academic Talk Routines in K-8 Classrooms
Episode 218 is chock-full of super practical ways to implement academic talk in your classroom tomorrow!
Elementary science teacher Jami Witherell shares her insights on fostering academic discourse in the classroom, emphasizing the importance of giving students time to think before they speak. She discusses practical strategies for engaging students in conversation, including the 'read a little, think a little, chat a little' approach, and the implementation of Socratic seminars and fishbowl discussions. Jami highlights the significance of preparation and creating a safe space for all students, especially multilingual learners, to express their thoughts and ideas. Her personal experiences as a multilingual learner shape her passion for ensuring that every student feels their voice matters in the classroom.
Fourth grade teacher Lauren Proffitt discusses the importance of oracy in education, detailing how her school has implemented a school-wide goal to enhance students' speaking skills. She explains the significance of structured routines and strategies that promote student engagement through talk, emphasizing the role of oracy in both academic and lifelong skills. The discussion also covers peer observations, collaborative learning, and effective management of classroom discussions, providing practical insights for educators.
Resources
- Fail-a-bration by Brad and Kristi Montague
We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.
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If you're an elementary or middle school teacher striving to create a classroom where students confidently engage in complex academic talk, this episode is for you.
Melissa:Right now you might be wondering how do I get my students to talk more or more deeply about what they're learning? Today, we're interviewing two teachers who will share actionable strategies and tips to get your students talking.
Lori:Hi teacher friends. I'm Lori and I'm Melissa. We are two educators who want the best for all kids, and we know you do too.
Melissa:We worked together in Baltimore when the district adopted a new literacy curriculum.
Lori:We realized there was so much more to learn about how to teach reading and writing.
Melissa:Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you. Today, let's hear from Jamie Witherow, an early elementary science teacher.
Lori:Hi, jamie, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Yeah, we cannot wait to talk to you about how you bring academic talk into your classroom.
Melissa:So we want to hear all about your routines, your structures, how you make, how do you get your students talking in your classroom. We want to hear all about it. So let's start like on a smaller scale. We want to hear about just what's a strategy you use like every day, something that teachers could easily just like pop into their class tomorrow. They really get students talking more.
Jami:Yeah, this is something that comes to me from the incredibly talented Becky DeSmith from Keys to Literacy just a dear friend of mine at this point. But years ago we were sitting in a PD and she said kids really need a chance to think about what they want to say before they're going to actually say it. They need an opportunity to think a little. And so she was like we're going to read a little first, then we're going to think a little, then we're going to chat a little or talk a little, and then they're going to write, and that became a poster that now hangs in my room.
Jami:And so, read a little, think a little, chat a little, talk a little, or talk a little, write a little is sort of like this structure that we use pretty consistently for any piece of text that we're looking at, and I just find that I need, as the educator, I need the time to give my students time to think before we jump into even that conversation, because we talk so much about academic discourse and conversation is so important, but we also have to have something to say.
Jami:And so this read a little, think a little.
Jami:Time builds time for me to sort of chat with students who may need a pre-chat before they chat with their partner, and also to give students a chance to think about what they want to say.
Jami:And so, like honoring that time of formulating your ideas and your thinking, and that that takes time. It doesn't just apparate like the thought that you want to share isn't immediately there, and then that transfers into the conversations they have with their partners or their teams and then hopefully, obviously, the end goal is for that to transfer into their writing and take what they've said and what they've talked about and put it in their writing. And it seems, I don't know, is it too simple, is it too easy? But it's sort of like that moment as an educator where it's like, if I don't have that poster in my room, I'm like here's what we read, here's the question, talk about it, because that's just sort of the flow of the classroom. But that poster is a reminder to me that I need to honor that. They need time to think a little before they chat a little and they need to chat before they can write.
Melissa:That's great, and you mentioned like they're doing this probably in partners or maybe with a small group, I'm guessing of like four, and how long are they talking in this? Like, how long do you give them to talk?
Jami:Sure, I've heard variable times for chatting.
Jami:I think to me it sort of depends on the lull of the room. I was with a bunch of teachers even just last night and somebody was saying like no more than 40 seconds, and then they're coming back and I was like whoa, that has to be like the fastest second grade conversation that I've ever seen and that's incredible if you can do that. But, like, sometimes it takes a little bit of time to like get your thoughts together. So if you are putting in the think first and then you have a big chunk to say I don't want to cut you off and I don't want to stop. If what you've said inspired somebody else to say something, I don't want to cut them off. So it is partially reading the room and then also, like the students that I'm working with and as a facilitator of that lesson, I'm around listening to all of these conversations. So it could last anywhere from, I guess, 40 seconds but hopefully up to a minute or two of discussion for a duo or a team to have that conversation.
Melissa:Yeah, and I'm wondering can you give us an example of like what kinds of questions they might be thinking about? Maybe something from your classroom, if you can think of it off the top of your head thinking?
Jami:about, maybe something from your classroom, if you can think of it off the top of your head, yeah, so right now we're thinking about tugboats. Tugboats are high on my mind. My kindergartners are looking at the way that tugboats move through water and they are pushing and pulling, and so the big, big question that we're wondering is how do tugboats help other things move through the water? But they might be looking at particular ships and whether, if it's a cargo ship, are they pushing or are they pulling, and I want students to recognize like that there are different pieces to the tugboat, so like there's ropes, there's hooks, there's all these different things, without me saying let's go and look at this picture and photograph and really look at deeply the picture here. I want them to do that in their academic discussions because I want to see what they know and what they notice. So it might be something as simple as how is that tugboat moving, the cargo ship? And then really asking them to look at the piece of text, which in this case, is a photograph. Right, we're thinking about the kindergarten level of access of text or written structure. Is really photography at this point, or pictures. So they're looking at that picture and then discussing with their teammates.
Jami:Like I see a big, big big ship and that's a cruise ship and I went on a cruise once. Then there's all this dialogue happening there and then somebody else will say, like I noticed a big rope. And then there's some. Somebody said the other day wagon wheels, and I was like tires, but not a wagon wheel, but thinking like the way things move. And so then somebody was like I think they have wagon wheels or tires because they're rubber and then they can help them. And so we have this like sort of adjacent discussion because of the academic discourse that was happening in their small groups, sort of reframing and renaming, like you're making a connection to when we talked about wagon wheels in our last books and now we're looking at tires that are on a tugboat. So it can be something that simple but that, given a little bit of time to think before they pair and share, I think can be a huge transition into what they actually talk to their partners about.
Melissa:First, can I just say tugboats Like how cool is that of a topic to talk about and learn about? I don't think I know that much about tugboats. I kind of want to sit in and learn too. But a couple of things just stuck out to me there. You mentioned you're doing this with kindergartners. So you're doing academic discourse with kindergartners who just started school a few months ago. That's amazing. You're doing it with things that were like you know they might not be reading yet, but they still have a text and that text is a picture and they're still doing this academic discourse grounded in a text, which is super cool. And, just to remind everybody, you're teaching science, right. So you're even doing this outside of an ELA classroom. You're doing it in a content area. So just wanted to point out all those really cool things you're doing.
Jami:I mean, I think it's so important. Having come from a literacy background and jumping into STEM, this year has been a little bit of like it can't just be the job of a homeroom teacher. It has to be not on all of us, but with all of us, kind of working together, working together. And so I think about making sure that they have access to rich science texts and then that opportunity for that really strong academic discourse to be a part of the lab as well. And a lot of them will tell me, like this doesn't feel like science. I'm like, okay, well, what does it feel like? And they're like it feels like art. I'm like oh.
Jami:I love that. It feels like library, it feels like we're in reading class, it feels like math and I'm like science should feel like all of those things right, like you should feel really good about all of the things that we're doing that make that STEM or STEAM family.
Melissa:That's great. I have one last question for you about this particular routine that you use. I know sometimes I would have my students. Some students would jump right in and have these great discussions and they'd be like, yeah, I have so much to say, and then you'd have some students who kind of are just like they give their one word answer because they, your teacher said that you have to, and then they don't have much more to say. Do you have any tips for teachers of like how to get some of those students saying more in these types of discussions?
Jami:I think our old friend sentence stems cannot be underutilized and sort of giving students that language to start, even as I'm, as I'm saying, like this is what we read about. Here's the question. I want you to think a little before we chat a little, and at this point they know that routine and I said you might be thinking like I think the tugboat is connected by something, so the tugboat is connected by, and then some of them will yell at me like rope and I'm like nope, that's in your brain. You're thinking about what you want to say when you meet with your partner. But I know for a lot of my multilingual learners that's a huge piece of the opportunity to engage, is like they've gotten that sentence stem just from me when they're thinking about it and then they can have that opportunity to practice and then I'm not afraid to partner with a group. So if I know that there are students that I want to hear from and there are students that are striving to have their voice be heard, I'm a third member of that team or a fourth member of that team and I'm going to come over and I want to listen and hear what they have to say, whether we're talking about this particular protocol or just having a conversation as a group is creating that safe space where you can try out academic language that you may make a mistake on.
Jami:So that sort of comes into the whole way that I run my room around tell me, I'm still cool. So whenever I make a mistake I'm always like tell me, I'm still cool. And I have a chorus of 22nd graders who are like you're still cool, or like a bunch of kindergartners who are like you're still cool. And so I do the same thing in academic discourse. If they're striving to put that sentence together, I'll say, oh, you're still cool, but you want to start with this whole beginning of your sentence. And they're like I'm still cool. And then they'll start their thought over again, and so it's sort of creating that opportunity to fail forward. Have that opportunity to try out something and not have it work and know that that's just as good as trying out something and it coming out exactly how you want it to the first time.
Lori:Yeah, this idea of feeling really safe in the academic conversation space is so important and I'm so glad that you brought that up and you have another like really just small strategy that teachers can take and use right away. I love that. You are still cool, you're so cool actually. Thanks, you're welcome. But this, like this strategy that you shared, the read a little or learn a little, right, think a little, talk a little, write a little, it just it's so replicable and it's a really easy way to get students to talk in the classroom and I think that that's like on a smaller scale, maybe like an everyday kind of routine you can implement. But I also know that with academic conversations, we want to address like some bigger, bigger ways to address conversations. So I'm thinking about things like Socratic seminar or some fishbowl discussions. I'm wondering if you might be able to tell us about these routines and what happens during each of them.
Jami:I think I was sort of blown away many years ago during my very first Socratic seminar. I sort of touted as the change in me, like 10 years ago, as a teacher who sort of realized I had to get out of my own way and I had been lowering the bar and lowering the bar so that students felt successful. And my very first Socratic seminar was the moment that I was like, oh, everybody is so capable and I need to like keep that level of academic rigor high. Because they will totally meet me there. And I always thank the most adorable second grader named Dylan, who I wish I could just like take with me now although I'm sure he's like in eighth or ninth grade at this point who was a student who was not in our room full time. He had a lot of academic pullout support but he was in our first Socratic seminar and we couldn't stop him from talking Like he was just a chatterbox through Socratic seminar and I was sort of like his peers were able to see him as having the strong voice and value, and so I was like gosh, I need to make sure that Socratic seminars become like a salient part of what I do as an educator. And so they are. You know those student-led discussions with no teacher voice. They are run through a lot of practice, so it's not like we just like all sit in a circle and everybody has their hands in their lap and we're all ready to go. But it's definitely that opportunity for me to step back and listen to students who have a strong voice, students who maybe are a little bit quieter.
Jami:When I started, way back in the day, I was using tokens to talk and so I would give everybody their three tokens. It was actually a fellow who used pennies to do their Socratic seminar, which just becomes like that thing that I'm like please, for the rest of my life, give them two pennies so that they can put in their two cents, which I think is such a brilliant idea in small group. Sometimes that works really well in second grade and sometimes there's just pennies everywhere. But we do a lot with showing them that their idea is worth something, right? So when you're putting it in here, I want you to share your token or your idea, and then that there's no sort of like. That's so correct, right?
Jami:Because I think sometimes in discussions as educators especially, we're looking to guide them somewhere. There's like sort of this answer that we know in our minds we would like to get to, and the reality is like the best discussions don't necessarily have like this one thing that will be the answer at the end of the discussion, but rather it's the actual discussion itself that is the real gift. And so I think I've been running them for literacy for so long that stepping into the science lab I was sort of like I need them to be a part of science so that kids can argue like if we should build a pergola or a shade over our playground so the sun doesn't get to us and they can have this like really rich discussion around. Pergolas are made out of wood and a shade has vinyl or plastic, and so I'm hearing like all this vocabulary coming from them and what they do or do not understand. Some kids were like you can't build a pergola because it's it's like you need nails and a hammer and I was like well, at least you know what a pergola is, but we could build a pergola here. So we have those opportunities for that really rich discussion, something that people will come in and sort of be like I can't believe you have kindergartners having this kind of conversation.
Jami:And I still laugh because it took me nine years to do this and I did it for the first time last year and it becomes the thing that I'm like why didn't I do this nine years ago? But I had a group that was very like policing each other during Socratic seminar and like it's my turn to share. You have to wait for me or I'm going to share first. And then they also wanted to go in order and I was like y'all, we have to like work as a team to be able to have this conversation. And so I just found a fellow educator actually a Maryland educator who was doing inside outside circles, and I shared it. They were eighth graders, shared it with my second graders and they were just like oh wait, that's what Socratic seminar is. That's like so you?
Melissa:actually showed them a video model.
Lori:Yes, I showed them a video?
Jami:Isn't that like the most simple thing ever in the history of mankind life? But I was just like yes. And they were like oh, we can do that. Yeah, now that that's what you want. Like we can do that. And I was like why?
Melissa:Why wouldn't I like model in some?
Jami:way. Well, because I think you can't like bring in a bunch of other teachers because they're going to be like you can do that because you're a teacher, so to see other kids do it, they were just like, oh okay. So then that was like the end of bickering, the end of arguing. They were like we want to be like those eighth graders, like we're going to do that. So now I start the beginning of every Socratic seminar season with here's where we're going. We won't be here on the first Socratic seminar, but this is what we really want. We want to listen to each other, we want to hear what the other people are saying and we want to add on to people's thinking. We want to make those links, those connections for each of our classmates. And so I think that has been such a game changer for myself in doing it. And then that all kind of comes into like the grace of it all, like I think, when you're trying anything new and this particular thing for me nine years ago was completely brand new that it's not going to be like this perfect, beautiful conversation that you could like film and showcase with everybody, like they are a little bit messy the first couple of times you do them. And that's the beauty of academic discourse is it grows. Over time it gets better and better.
Jami:I think one of the things that I hear a lot for my multilingual learners too. People will tell me in Socratic Seminar. The kids are just repeating each other and I'm like, yeah, but in English. So that's incredible. I'm so happy that they are restating what their peers are saying in the English language. I mean, the school that I teach at is so diverse. We are so lucky. We're more than 50% diverse. We have students from all over the world Bulgaria, central and South America and they all come to this like one little island school, which is so exciting. But we have languages that represent those cultures as well, and so making sure that they have opportunity to hear spoken language in English and then also to try it out. So copying or mirroring or mimicking, those are all steps in the process of learning the English language and certainly how to use English language in academic discourse.
Lori:Okay, there's so much I want to follow up on Jamie, but I think number one I would like to just stay on the Socratic seminar for a moment and think about the preparation that goes into it. Can you describe some preparation? Because I know your students still just don't show up on Tuesday and you're like here's the question, let's Socratic seminar. So can you maybe walk us through what that preparation looks like and just speak to your multilingual learner population again, I think that's so helpful, at least for me to hear. I love hearing you know the support that you're giving your students all around, but also for that specific population. I think in this, the way that we're talking about academic conversation, it really makes a lot of sense to hear how we're supporting students.
Jami:Yeah conversation. It really makes a lot of sense to hear how we're supporting students. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the big things is it has to be done with this sort of like the end goal in mind. So this universal design is purposeful in that we understand backwards planning right. So I don't want to arrive at Socratic Seminar and then hope they have enough to talk about. But I need to know that along the way we've picked up some information so that they're coming to Socratic Seminar with something that's going to be really successful. And I hope that I'm doing read a little, think a little, chat a little, write a little before they come to Socratic Seminar. So they are doing some sort of drawing or picture creation to have something that they want to share, show or say in Socratic Seminar. But even well before that point of the day of Socratic Seminar I've have to think out kind of like weeks in advance for what students are picking up along the way, because I don't anticipate that a kindergartner is going to come to their first Socratic Seminar and just know pergola and shade and umbrella without some sort of lessons that have introduced those along the way so that students can feel really successful. So in that way it's sort of like planning with that destination in mind, and one of the stops along the way we know is going to be Socratic Seminar, and so where do I need to stop along the way to support them?
Jami:I often tell this like really funny story in my own life that has less to do with Socratic Seminar but more to do with backwards planning, that has less to do with Socratic Seminar but more to do with backwards planning. And I lived in a city very recently where my mother used to just drive from her house towards my house and like did not have the destination and the GPS. And then she would tell me like okay, I'm by a brick building and there's a woman in a pink shirt, like do you know where I am in the city? And I was like no. And I was like and mom, like no one gets in their car and just drives in the direction that they're heading because you're going to get lost and I'm not going to be able to find you.
Jami:And I feel like that about the end of a like the culminating experience for Socratic Seminars, like you can't just get in on that day and be like, here, you have this great conversation. It's just not going to happen. But if, along the way, I've given them tips and tricks and directions and they kind of know where we're going and the vocabulary is built in and then we've had discussions about things that are very similar and then they get to this ending point where they can have this culminating experience, it makes for a much richer and deeper Socratic seminar, because the other 50% of Socratic seminar is just a really good question, right? So I can ask a question like, do you like chocolate ice cream or vanilla ice cream, and you can have a discussion about it, but there's not going to be depth there. So when I'm thinking about the creation of a really good question, it has to be something that I know there can be really deep discourse about and that has to be in the backwards design as well.
Lori:Yeah, connected to what they're learning about. Yeah, yeah, okay, so thinking about Socratic seminar is like the big picture it's going to be built in, uh, over time I'm going to maybe even scaffold my questions leading up to that bigger question, right that then they're coming and they're ready. I'm I'm just picturing, like very practically, I'm picturing students coming with their notebooks, having their vocabulary, having their pictures drawn, having anything like glued in that they might want to refer to or point to, and they are not surprised, like they have. They know the question, right, that they're going to be answering. I, this is not a surprise to them, right? I see you nodding your head.
Lori:So if you're listening, jamie's nodding your head. Yes, there's no surprises here. We're preparing our kids well, so like on, and all students participate in this. Jamie, I hear you saying that they're. They might have a coin, they're going to participate, they know their value add, their roles and they see where this all fits into the big picture. Yeah, I'm wondering if we can kind of flip, cause I mentioned fishbowl earlier and if any teachers who are still listening are thinking okay, so what's the difference between a fishbowl and a Socratic seminar?
Melissa:And you mentioned that video was inside out, which I think is similar. Yeah.
Lori:I did write that down too, melissa. I was like, and we said it's something else. So, jamie, we're going to turn it to you. Can you clarify for us maybe? Like, what is a fishbowl? And, melissa, is that a synonym? For I would use it as a synonym. I think inside out is.
Melissa:I'll ask Jamie though.
Lori:I've been using it as a synonym. Okay same, I wasn't sure. Okay yeah.
Jami:Because to me, a fishbowl is like there's a group that's having their discussion on the inside and then there's a group that's sitting on the outside, or a circle inside-outside circles.
Lori:Sure, inside-outside, outside-inside. Are you singing the song from Recess? Do you guys know what I'm talking about? No, oh my gosh, you didn't grow up in South Jersey. Okay, carry on.
Jami:Amazing. So I think one of the things that is really I'll hear from even colleagues that will say I'm scared to try a Socratic seminar because it feels like a huge group Then I feel like Fishbowl or Inside Outside Circles is a nice place to start right, because it's half of your class is having a discussion on the inside, the other half is able to listen on the outside, and then they'd switch and they have an opportunity to come to the Inside Circle and be an observer on the outside. But I think for some teachers who are maybe feeling that anxiety of not really sure how this is going to go, starting with inside-outside can be a real opportunity to help guide the learning. It's still a student-led discussion. So for my perspective, if I'm doing inside-outside, I'm not a voice that's in that conversation, I'm just an observer both times.
Jami:And again, I think picking of the groups and the way that you create those inside-outside circles is sort of like every teacher is a little bit magic and it's sort of like that's part of the magic of teaching, is like knowing, like I'm going to need some multilingual learners in each of my groups.
Jami:I'm going to need students who are striving readers in each of my groups and really building out an opportunity to have kind of a diverse team. That's having that conversation and then switching, can be really powerful. Something that again always feels like more obvious to me than it did, like the moment before it happened, is sort of that outside circle, really valuing being able to hear what their peers have to say, because you just listen in a different way when you don't have to talk right, when you can actually really listen. Because if you're on that inside circle, you're listening while processing to get your answer together and if you're a multilingual learner, that's a lot. So you have to be hearing what people are saying and be processing for the next idea, whereas if you're sitting on the outside and you're a multilingual learner, what a real gift it is to be like I'm just processing what people are saying and then when it's my turn to go in, I can practice with my language.
Lori:Such a good point, jamie. I'm wondering if you can give us any tips or any thoughts on the engagement for that outside circle, like how does it not become unwieldy?
Jami:That's a really good question and like I think it's okay if sometimes it does right, like so that goes back a little bit to like you're still cool and we're still figuring it out. I read this incredible book this fall. It just came out and if you don't have a copy of it, I want you to pick up a copy. It's called Failabration and it's all about, like celebrating your failures and it has radically changed when we make mistakes. So like I might say to my outside circle team, like we're going to have to have a little bit of a fail-abration when we're done here, friends, because it's a little too noisy on the outside and we need to be listening and we just send each other, like you know, positive energy or a woo after after for our fail-abration. But it's really been like this tactile thing that I've used fairly successfully this year to sort of be like that wasn't exactly what I was looking for. You're still cool and we're not going to be like upset about it or never, never, have a Socratic seminar ever again, but just like that we can do better, right, and sort of what that's going to look like. I also think like one of the things that I've leveraged is like, I'm not going to ask you to participate in that conversation, but I am going to ask to hear from you know, like an equity stick, pull one or two of the outside circle friends about what they heard before we switch to inside, outside, so they don't know who's going to get pulled and they don't really know what I'm going to exactly be asking them about what they heard. I mean, typically it's sort of like can you not summarize, but can you tell me a little bit about what you heard this student say? Or can you tell me a little bit about what this student said? Or did you hear anybody that agreed, who agreed with each other, who disagreed with each other? And so they have to be listening in case their equity stick is pulled.
Jami:But again, I think as educators we have to like, lean into, like it being a little bit of a messy thing when you first get started and the more you can do to create those routines that are sort of like I just grabbed my can of equity sticks and they all know like, oh, she's going to pull one.
Jami:The end of this. We got to be ready to like, have something in our mind and be ready to have that conversation with her I think is a huge factor. I've also done it where, like, I want them not in this outside circle because I think that can be really distracting, but it's sort of like, right when the inside circle is done, I want the outside circle to go, add something to their drawing or write something that they heard that was said, so that they know they have an actionable purpose before they switch into the inside circle. And again, it might be something as simple as like they're just checking off that they did the same thing, like they're just checking off that they did the same thing, or they heard the same thing that they wrote on their paper. But it's that action of like there is something to be done and not just like this passiveness of sitting and listening.
Lori:Yeah, that's a good point. That does make so much sense.
Lori:Yeah, I asked that because I didn't really try this until I taught fifth grade and it was, I remember, with the students Fishbowl or Inside Out, whatever you want to call it with the students who were like amped up to talk.
Lori:They were in it to win it. But the other students were sometimes a little bit hesitant, and so sometimes I remember using like a little checklist for them, or like I had a student come who didn't speak any English at all and I remember having just like a checklist for him of like talking, you know, not talking like and then like maybe just like a little question, and like he could participate in different ways, like touching vocabulary that we were working with in addition to these like executive functioning things that were happening in front. So I love that idea just of even an equity stick or going to add something to a drawing or a diagram, something to create involvement and engagement. That's kind of low pressure but also does set the stakes of, hey, we're all still participating, we're all still learning here, and it wasn't your time to be like super active in the middle of the circle, but you're still responsible for learning during this time.
Jami:Yeah, and it's still not an I gotcha or an aha. Like you know, like I want you to feel really successful, so it's never going to be like, when you go to add it to your paper, that like, oh, you didn't have anything to write, like I want you to have something to add to your paper, but I feel like I have to move away from like you're not getting penalized because you didn't have something to add. It's really about adding to your own thinking.
Melissa:I was going to say that I thought the hardest part of doing a Socratic seminar in my classroom was really getting them to listen to each other and not just like putting their pennies in and saying they were done, you know, but really listening and all these things you're talking about, plus the like having a really good question that you mentioned earlier, but all of these, like there's a reason for listening. That's why we're doing this. It's not just about you saying something right, but it is a whole conversation, so you're learning from each other as well. So I think that you've given some really good tips for that as well. Thank you.
Lori:Yeah, and there's so much value to me in both protocols, if you will right, like both speaking protocols either the Socratic seminar or the fishbowl slash inside out. I know, though, there are probably more, but these are the two we're just focusing on today, and I think it's really helpful to think what does my class need right now, what would be a stepping stone to get to an end goal that I have for them, and I love thinking about how to use these two protocols specifically to kind of scaffold where we are or where educators listening are, and how to get my students to where we want them to be in terms of learning all of the content that they need to learn.
Melissa:So, to wrap up, Jamie, it's pretty obvious that you really value academic talk in your classroom from everything that you've mentioned, but I'm wondering if you want to just share a little bit about why is it so important to you to have this academic talk and for your students to to be talking in your classroom?
Jami:Sure, I mean, I think, and I always like hold this story and value it so much because it's sort of like the reason I became an educator as well, and that is that I'm a multilingual learner. So I was adopted from South America when I was three years old and I came to this country not speaking any English and I grew up like really wanting to be the best I could ever be as a kid. Now, as an adult, I get a little verklempt about it because it is like that moment as an educator where I wish that I had access to academic discourse. When I was growing up, I went to school when we were quiet and you sat and you listened and that's what you were to do. And I think as a little kid I was always worried about getting sent back and my adoptive family was always like you were never going to send you back. What do you have in your mind? I was like I know, and I couldn't tell you as like a little kid that I was like feeling those feels, but I wanted to and there just wasn't room for academic discourse at that time and I think if there was, I would have had a lot to say, but I was sort of like working really hard to like just kind of hold it all in. And it's why, like, I didn't really weed out of multilingual learning support until I was in sixth grade.
Jami:And I meet educators now who are like what, like how, how did that happen? And I was like, because I wasn't talking right, I wasn't really given the space to be able to do that, and so it matters to me so much that my kiddos don't have that feeling that their voice is so important and it matters so much and they matter. But also the opportunity to try out their English and their skills is so important. I will never know none of us will what the backpacks are that I walk into my room every day and what they're filled with. And so, whether it's through adoption or through moving to this country as a new person, I just I want them to know that this space is an opportunity to have deep conversations, critical learning is happening and that academic discourse is so important. Even when it's messy and even when it's a little bit loud and boisterous, that's okay.
Jami:And I think there's a little bit of like the little Jamie, the little me. That's like if someone had given me the opportunity to be in a Socratic seminar when I was in second grade. I feel like maybe my trajectory in education would have been a little bit different, because I was always the kid that felt like I was trying to keep up and I wanted to be good enough to keep up with everybody else and I would go back in time and sort of be like no, you are, you totally are. And like I would go back in time and sort of be like no, you are, you totally are, and like you should be having conversations. So I make it a huge part of, I think, my classroom because I know for so many of my learners it's important for them.
Lori:Sorry, no, you're so inspiring. I just want to tell you that you're so cool. Thanks Really, though. This is you're just amazing, jamie, and we're so lucky to have talked with you, and I can't thank you enough I know melissa can't either for being here today and for sharing everything that happens in your classroom, and for sharing that story that helps us really understand why this is so important to you. Thanks. Now let's hear from fourth grade teacher Lauren Proffitt.
Melissa:Hi Lauren, Welcome to the podcast.
Lauren:We are so excited to have you here and hear all about what you do in your classroom with academic talk.
Lori:We are very excited. Hi, thank you so much for oracy and I think it would be helpful for our listeners too, for you to define oracy in that response to your school-wide goal on oracy and what that looks like.
Lauren:Sure Oracy is the ability for anyone to articulate ideas, develop understanding and engage with others through spoken language. So our students are learning through talk and learning how to talk. They are deepening their knowledge through talk that has been planned, modeled, scaffolded and structured for them.
Lori:Amazing. And so how did your school choose to focus on Oracy and what is the actual goal for your school?
Lauren:The goal was originally created so that students would be speaking more in every single lesson, regardless of content. So Oracy has become a mechanism for us for teaching and not something that we're doing in addition to everything else. So it's not this added component to our day, it's how we are facilitating learning for students. So they are constantly speaking. We expect students to speak multiple times throughout a lesson. In fact, we know like the most effective teachers are requiring students to speak three to five times per minute for shorter responses and then giving students an opportunity to speak once a minute for, like, more thoughtful questions. So students at our school are speaking several times a lesson. They know it's not an option. We require them to speak in complete sentences, always, regardless of whether we're asking them an academic question or it's something else. So we've really created an environment where students are constantly speaking.
Lori:That's so cool. So why is this important to your school? And I would love to hear why is it important to you in your classroom and a little bit of what it looks like there.
Lauren:I think if we are asking students to learn something new, their background knowledge is largely invisible to us unless they are talking. So we need to be asking them questions and they need to be given the opportunity to speak. So it's really become the foundation for how I quickly gather what students know about a topic and what they do not know. I think it's also incredibly important for preparing them for the future, for when they have a job and they're asked to converse with coworkers, they need to be able to develop a claim and provide evidence to support that and reasoning, and so it's not just an academic skill, it's a lifelong skill, and their voice is what is going to create opportunities for them down the line, and we're really trying to hone those talk skills so that they have as many opportunities as possible.
Melissa:Yeah, I love that your whole school is focusing on this. That that is really admirable, that it's not just you alone in your classroom, and I also love that you all think of it not as something separate. You know you sometimes see those oh, we have speaking and listening standards we have to meet and now that's a whole, nother thing and it's more time and that's stressful as a teacher always. So I love that you see it as like that's how we get to what we're teaching.
Lauren:Some component of our PD is focused around oracy and how we are promoting these practices in our classrooms and just different strategies, so that it's not just something we've talked about once or twice. We continually come back to it and I think that's really important for everyone, but also for teachers who are new to the building and who are trying to establish those routines in their classrooms as well.
Melissa:So that's what we want to hear about now. We want to hear about those routines, because you know just, you can't just ask students to talk more, right, you have to be able to make them into some like structures and routines that they know. And so can you tell us about some of the more of the small scale ones, the ones you do all the time, every day, that are within your lessons?
Lauren:From the very beginning of the year. We or at least in my classroom we provide students with sentence stems so that if they're in a situation where they're not sure how to respond, they have that scaffold in place At this point in the year. A lot of them don't even need that, however, I think it's helpful for new students to see what this looks like and to have something to fall back on. We are from the start of the day, from morning meeting on. Students are turning and talking with a partner. They're turning and talking with their table. So setting that foundation with low stakes tasks is helpful. We a couple of strategies that I employ throughout the day. We use a traverse, which is where students line up and they move down a line and answer and elaborate on a question that is posed. So, for example, yesterday in math I had them stand up and the question I first posed was is it possible for a triangle to ever have parallel sides? And they had a minute to think. They shared. Their partners have to repeat back to them what they said. So it's not just about eliciting responses, it's also about encouraging the listening and then adding on to what their partner said. So it's not just we don't see kids just wanting to speak. We're requiring them to listen and elaborate and start to build conversations.
Lauren:At the beginning of the year it's harder for that to take place. They want to just share what they know and they want to add their own ideas, and so it's really. We have to take time out to plan and have them listen back. So sometimes I'll record them in a conversation and say what did you notice about this conversation? And almost immediately students will say oh, I noticed we weren't elaborating on what each other would say.
Lauren:And some students will say I noticed that we say we want to add on to what they said, but then we're just introducing a new idea. So it's really. It's a harder skill to develop than it would seem, but once we get there they really are having really meaningful conversations. Another strategy that we use is a mix and mingle, so students are moving throughout the room. It's a great way to get them up and moving If they need a brain break. You pose a question, they pause, they discuss, we move again, and so they're adding on to their response each time, using that academic vocabulary and sharing what their previous partner said, so that it's not just the same canned response each time.
Melissa:Yeah, can you mentioned one of the tasks you use for the traverse, but can you, like I'm just thinking, what kinds of tasks would would you? Or questions, would you ask for a turn and talk, like you said, a low stakes kind of question, versus ones where you would say, okay, this is worth us getting up doing the traverse, or mix and mingle so that they're listening, they're able to like go back and forth in this conversation. Can you think of, like, the difference between those kinds of questions you would ask, yeah, Sure.
Lauren:So typically for the Traverse, I would ask a more thought-provoking question. So something that's coming up is students will be asked beyond and this is shifting from math to ELA but they would be asked to think about, beyond the loyalist and patriot perspective during the American Revolution, what are some other perspectives that are important for us as the learner to take into account. So they would want to be, we would be looking for them to talk about the perspective of African Americans or the Native Americans or people who were on the fence. They didn't know, they didn't really connect with one side or another, the Quakers. So that would be more of a typical traverse discussion.
Melissa:So there's lots of different answers they could be listening for and talking about.
Lauren:Exactly. And so then that way they are not just like I said, they have to repeat back to them what they said and then they have to add on on and then they're moving down the line and they're sharing what their previous partner said. But that could go on for probably 15 minutes without having to like stop and pull everyone back together, because at that point we've had the students have engaged in so much learning and have read a number of texts and have developed the vocabulary that they're very easily able to do that A mix and mingle. We could do something similar, but that's a little bit more low stakes. That would be something we use morphology as part of, well, an extra piece of ELA.
Lauren:So we, I might ask them, stand up, they do the mix and mingle and I ask them to use a prefix or a root word and a sentence and then they share back. So really it's about just keeping them talking and engaged. So I'll use that more when I feel like they need a break and they need to get up and move. But I also want it to be purposeful and you know I don't want to like have everything devolve into chaos.
Melissa:But I even see, even with that one, but especially the traverse that you mentioned, like they might go in with just one thought right, but then they, by the time they go and sit back down, it's like, oh, I have all these other perspectives or all these other words that use that, that route. You know they can see, hear from all their. You know, it's not, it is about the talk, but it's also that they're learning from each other and have more ideas when they're done.
Lauren:Yes, so another great thing about the orSC strategies is that we will often use them prior to beginning a piece of writing so that we are getting them thinking and they're hearing from multiple other students and they are able to then they've said it, so then they can much easy, much more easily go write about it. So we've found that if they can say it, they can write it, and this looks different for all students, right, we have very high achieving students whose writing is above grade level, but we've also found that for the students who need the most support, the Oracy has made such a difference because they are constantly being asked to rely and think back on the knowledge that they've built, and so, paired with a knowledge building curriculum, it's really a game changer.
Lori:Yeah, I totally agree. I think kids need to have something to talk about in order to really deeply talk or even just, like you said, like get the juices flowing on. Like a surface level. Even with a vocabulary term or morphology, they have to be able to put it into context and to be able to do that effectively, you need to have something to talk about and then to write about. To write about Exactly, I love, I love thinking about Oracy as the bridge to writing, and I know sometimes writing can be the bridge to Oracy. Um two, do you have any thoughts on that, lauren?
Lauren:Yeah, I think it can go both ways. I I a lot of times we'll do like a think, write, pay or share, and so that you know, we want them to think about what they know and elaborate on a topic beforehand and then go share. I think that's helpful to get some basic ideas down on paper. Big picture, though, I really think that the speaking and listening piece of it really supports the writing so much, and even in a way where students pair up and they can fill out an outline pretty quickly about a specific question and then they can go back and they can refer to their text and their different sources and add to it through writing. But I think the talking about it beforehand is so powerful for so many of them.
Lori:Yeah, for sure, 100%. I love that. You said if you can say it or if they can say it, they can write it. That's 100% true. That's like my big takeaway here. So, all right. So I'm thinking about how you manage all of this in your classroom. There's a lot of routines and I'm sure there's a lot of practice and a lot of preparation and a lot of setup. So would you share with us how you manage all of these routines within your classroom?
Lauren:I think it's really important to think about both like strategic, like talk moves, and when you're going to use them. So, like I mentioned previously, we pull a lot of our questioning from the curriculum, the writing pieces of it, small or large but also thinking about where are students sitting, who are they going to turn and talk with when it's just a quick turn and talk, right. So we set that up from day one. This is your shoulder partner. We set that up from day one. This is your shoulder partner.
Lauren:These are like when I say table talk, you're turning and everybody at the table is looking at each other. One person is speaking at a time and I'll stop them and I'll say I see three people at table two talking, stop, start again. And so we really practice that from day one so that when I do give them those opportunities, they understand one person is speaking at a time. They have signals that we use to show agreement, disagreement, they want to add on that sort of thing. We have those sentence stems both on the board and on a card ring at their table so that they can grab those if they need them. We utilize the vocabulary wall so that they have access to that. So we just have all of these pieces that are there to serve as a support and at this point in the year it's a pretty fine tuned. Can you share?
Lori:with us the, the gestures Like when I I remember using this one. Like I agree, like this, just the sign language gestures Like I agree, I disagree.
Lauren:Yeah, they. They do this if they want to want to build on to what somebody else is saying.
Melissa:What are you doing, lauren, for?
Lauren:I know, I didn know, I didn't do it either. Yeah, oh sure.
Lori:It's hard to explain. Put your hand into a fist and then take one hand and put it over the other one to add on yes.
Lauren:And then they just shake their hand to show that they might disagree. Yeah, like a flat palm back and forth. A flat palm back and forth to show that they might disagree, or I don't know what. Yeah, like a flat palm back and forth A flat palm back and forth to signal that they disagree and would like to share why they disagree.
Melissa:Can I just jump in real quick? I know it seems so simple and I'm probably preaching to the choir with teachers here, but the way you just said that you make sure they know who their partner is and you already have that planned, I know it seems so simple, but I watched my son six and he goes to different sports and like there's some that he goes to where they'll say find a partner. And it is just chaos when that happens versus when they're like you two together, you two together, you two together done.
Lauren:Exactly yes. So at their tables they have an assigned shoulder partner. When we get up and do a mix and mingle, I play music. When the music stops, they go back to back with the person closest to them and that's it. They know they're not moving around the room trying to find their best friend. We just have that routine in place and we practice that. Right, and I think teachers have to become comfortable with practicing these things and saying that didn't meet my expectation. Go back to your seats. We're going to try this again, because you don't want to be having that conversation in January. Right, like, at this point we are dialed in, we are focused on the content and we don't have time to send you back to your seats and try it again. But I will, right, like, those are just things that you have to do after major breaks and just to revisit the expectations. So I think teachers just need to get comfortable with if it doesn't look and sound the way you want it to sound, try it again.
Lori:You just answered. The question I was going to ask is like sound the way you want it to sound? Try it again. You just answered. The question I was going to ask is like, how do you keep it from getting to be too chaotic? And what I'm hearing you say is practice these routines, practice them a lot in the beginning of the year and then reset those expectations through structured practice after big breaks, even if, you know, on a random Tuesday it's just not going the way.
Lori:Like me, I'm just thinking maybe there's an assembly everybody's pumped for and you know they're all out of control and just really psyched up about it. So you're going to reset that expectation throughout the day, throughout the weeks, throughout the year, as needed, and just do a lot of practice or just resetting. Yes, awesome. So I'm wondering how you might do this. If you said, like this is like something that you do in your classroom and your school has these oracy goals, are other teachers in your school doing it the same way? Are they doing it a little bit differently? Does your school do this like big picture for planning, like how does it look in your school building? And then what happens if, like, you're doing things a little bit planning, like, how does it look in your school building? And then what happens if, like, you're doing things a little bit differently, like, is that okay? How does it work?
Lauren:Yes, we. So we have an incredible amount of autonomy with how we roll this out in our own classrooms. Right, we all are aware of the different oracy practices that are available to us, but I think everyone has the two or three that really make the most sense to them and are easiest for them to implement with their students. So this might not look exactly the same in every single class, but I can say that every single teacher in this building is thinking about the questions that they're asking their students, thinking about how they're asking them so that students are having the opportunity to respond as frequently as possible.
Lauren:I have a colleague in kindergarten who I collaborate with pretty closely, and I was in her room before winter break and the way that the kindergartners are able to discuss in science they were learning about tugboats and forces and just the conversation that conversations that five-year-olds can have when you structure the environment so that they're required to talk is incredible.
Lauren:It really is special, and so you know you see this at different levels and throughout the building, but everybody is focused on it, and we see that when we get a new group of students each August and you, of course, have to remind students what this looks like and sounds like, but since it's a school-wide goal, we don't have to explain why it's important. Students understand why it's important. They feel more confident because they are constantly being asked to recall information and build upon each other's ideas. So I think the main takeaway is that we have students who feel empowered and confident to speak about things. In fact, we hear from parents often that they come home, they get in the car and they share you know what they've learned at school and the parents are just blown away by the vocabulary and the way that students are able to sustain a conversation about a certain topic.
Lori:So, lauren, I think it's amazing that you got to go see a kindergarten teacher and what it looks like in that classroom. How often do you get to do that? Or was it just like, oh, we're buddies, I'm going to stop in because I feel super comfortable. Or are those activities structured through your school? Is it something where you're like, okay, I get to go see this teacher this day? I remember I had an amazing principal who facilitated those opportunities for us at one particular school that I worked in and it was so amazing just to step into other teachers' classrooms, you know, even if it wasn't the same grade and just see how they were facilitating very similar focuses like our foci that we were working on in our classroom.
Lauren:Yeah, that's something that we are currently like. Building out is the peer observation model. We have a mentor-mentee program here, so the mentors go in and observe their mentee and then we go and visit a classroom that's doing something or focusing on a goal that our mentees might have. So we are popping in and out of classrooms to get ideas, to see best practices. So hopefully in the next few months that will be more of an opportunity for everyone. I do think it's so incredibly powerful to be able to go in and see what's happening in other classrooms. I can be in a classroom for five minutes and walk out with three new ideas of how to do something, and I think it just keeps things fresh and it prevents you from becoming stagnant. So I just think it's the more that we can do that, I think, the better.
Melissa:Lauren, I want to switch gears a little bit here. I know we talked about those like quick routines, some a little bit more extended, but still ones you might do more on a daily basis. But I know you also do some more extended, but still ones you might do more on a daily basis. But I know you also do some more extended, in-depth discussions, like the Socratic seminar type of discussions, which they can be tough to manage for sure. So we want to hear from you what are some tips you have on how teachers can manage those types of discussions.
Lauren:Yeah. So I think I always start with identifying the question that's going to be asked and then the sub questions that might come off of that, and so it's all built upon the knowledge building curriculum, whether it be an ELA or science or social studies. And so students come to a discussion with their research, with their text, with their notes. We ask, we pose the question ahead of time, we give them, you know, the planning time to go through and find evidence and think about how they're going to elaborate on the evidence and their reasoning. And then, before we have the actual discussion whether it be a fishbowl or a Socratic seminar, or sometimes I'll split the class in half so that students are given more opportunities to speak we have like a pre-discussion meeting where students are a pre-discussion meeting where students are determining a speaking and listening goal for themselves. They're thinking and reflecting on the last time we've done this. So I pulled a couple of examples.
Lauren:One of my students before break said they wanted to seek first to understand, and to them that meant asking questions and finding their voice, but also knowing when to listen and knowing when to help other people find their voice if they felt like someone wasn't being given the opportunity to share.
Lauren:Some other goals that they had were to synergize around a topic so that the discussion stayed. You know we maintained the. We stayed on the question, we weren't veering too far off, but also introducing new evidence so that they aren't all sharing the same evidence, which can be hard in a fourth grade class because we only have so many texts that we have used throughout the module. Some other goals that they have set are around maintaining eye contact and showing that they're listening by nodding and using our hand signals, and knowing how to respectfully disagree instead of saying you're wrong, right, it's not, you're wrong, it's I disagree. My ideas are different and this is why. So those are all goals that they came up with during our pre-meeting and I just it's really, it's really cool to see them reflecting on their previous discussions and seeing how they want to grow and become better speakers, and listeners, for that matter.
Melissa:I love that they all have different things. So that helps kind of manage the whole discussion If, like you know, you're keeping it on track and you're making sure everyone's voice is heard. You know it kind of helps the discussion to flow a little bit better if everyone has their part. But I'm wondering if do you explicitly teach some of those things at some point, like, I'm guessing, at the beginning of the year, because I'm not sure that fourth graders would necessarily know how to do those things.
Lauren:In our first module for ELA there's a whole group discussion that is suggested and I always take it and I break it up and I hold five different discussions and so I'll pull, you know, a small group of students back to my table and I what I do is I always put a student in charge so they will post the question and then they sort of are the facilitator and I just listen. But something I do in that first discussion is it's called a spider web I write everyone's name down on a paper and I draw lines to show who's speaking, like so that I'm getting an idea of how many times each person spoke. And then I add notes to that paper as well. Oh, they responded to what the person before them said or they brought up an entirely new idea, just so that I can sort of see. And then we share that. We finish the conversation. I usually time it, and at the end of the conversation I say how do you think that went?
Lauren:And they're really like pretty critical of themselves at this point, even at the beginning of the year.
Lauren:So they usually have more like feedback for each other than I do. But then I share, like this is how many times this person talked and I think next time we need to make sure that we're focusing on asking everyone else what they think before we share. One more thing, right, and so it really is like, and if I feel like a conversation is going off the rails a little bit, I'll pause them and I'll jump in because I don't want it to be a waste of time. But sometimes if you give them the time to grapple and sort of try to get it back on the on track themselves, they'll get there. So I think it's just about knowing like OK, this is, we're too far gone here, we need to, I need to intervene. But they've gotten to the point where you know they're pretty cognizant of what's going on and they'll like nudge each other if they feel like somebody is talking too much and not giving you know equal talk time to the rest of the group.
Melissa:And can I ask just one logistical question about this that I never I don't think I ever mastered very well? Do you grade a discussion and if you do, how do you keep track of what's happening during this? You mentioned the spider web, which I think would be one helpful tool. Is there anything else you do that helps to like keep track so that you can, or do you just not grade it? I'm just curious.
Lauren:Well, so I don't. It goes in it's participation, and but the most important part of it for me is the feedback for the students.
Melissa:On that specific goal that they had to.
Lauren:Yeah, so we shared before the discussion what, what their goal is, and we also, like, I'll look at the speaking and listening standards, for we'll look at those there in their ELA materials so they'll highlight one that they want to focus on and so when they bring their packet back to me, I'll see what's highlighted, or they'll have it out on their table so I can see. And it's a range, right. So it's like developing on grade level, like meeting expectations, exceeding expectations. So I'll let them know that.
Lauren:But then I think the you know, the verbal and like the written feedback is also really important and I try to do that pretty immediately. So if we have a whole group discussion, I'll stop and we'll stop the discussion and at the end I'll ask, like, does anybody have any feedback for each other? And they'll share out and they they really do, at this point, have good feedback for each other. But then I'll share out and they really do, at this point, have good feedback for each other. But then I'll share out some things that I noticed different students doing and then I'll make sure that they get the written feedback pretty immediately so that they know that's something that they need to work on for, you know, the future.
Melissa:Yeah those goals are helpful.
Lori:Do you share the spider web with them? Is that something?
Lauren:I do.
Lori:I feel like that'd be really helpful visually for me to see if I were a student in your class. That should just kind of see like, oh, okay, big picture, where do I fit in? And like, okay, this, this person is talking a little bit more and like this person's not talking. So maybe I need to engage this person a little more, Like I'm sure you could coach them to do that, but that seems like such a helpful tool.
Lauren:Definitely, and I actually something that I did this year for the first time is I had kept a couple of spiderwebs from last year and before the first discussion I put it under the doc cam. I like crossed the names out from the students but I asked, like what do you notice about this spider web? And it was one where I had two students who really dominated the conversation and I wanted the students to pick up on that and I said, like, what questions does this spider web elicit? Like, because they've seen them, right, they I'm not the only one in the building who's using them and so they had good questions. They said, well, did, did this person just not speak? Did they not want to share? Did they? Were they absent a lot? Did they not have the completed organizer? And they, you know they had some really good questions. So, you know, I think encouraging them to be thoughtful about that as well as helpful.
Lori:This is so amazing. I feel like our teacher friends listening have learned so much. I know I would love to see one of those spider webs and I just. I think there's so many great pieces of information that you shared today. I even especially love the idea of, like you, breaking your class into two during some of the bigger discussions so that there's not as much like downtime, if you will, for the other kids, like, for example, in the Socratic or in the fishbowl, like what a great little tip, like once you have those routines in place, you can break it into two and kind of have them run it and you're just facilitating between the two. So so amazing. We're so glad that you came on to talk with us, lauren. We can't thank you enough.
Lauren:Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.
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