Melissa & Lori Love Literacy ™
Melissa & Lori Love Literacy™ is a podcast for teachers. The hosts are your classroom-next-door teacher friends turned podcasters learning with you. Episodes feature top literacy experts and teachers who are putting the science of reading into practice. Melissa & Lori bridge the gap between the latest research and your day-to-day teaching.
Melissa & Lori Love Literacy ™
Effective Reading Instruction for Multilingual Learners (And Why It Works for Everyone)
Episode 223
Antonio Fierro and Gabi Bell Jimenez break down the essentials of teaching English learners—covering the simple view of reading, oracy, and literacy instruction.
English learners thrive when we amplify language, not simplify it. They explore how to build language like Legos—piece by piece—so students can truly master it.
Key Takeaways:
✅ Embed language development into reading instruction
✅ Use images and real-world connections to deepen understanding
✅ Keep content rigorous while supporting language growth
Listen in for practical strategies to help your English learners (and ALL learners) succeed!
Resources
- Strategic Use of Visuals by Antonio Fierro and Gabi Bell Jimenez
- National Literacy Panel on Language-Minority Children and Youth
We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.
Grab free resources and episode alerts! Sign up for our email list at literacypodcast.com.
Join our community on Facebook, and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, & Twitter.
Did you know that 5.3 million students are English learners in the United States? Teaching reading can be tricky when students are just learning the English language.
Melissa:Today we're unpacking two key skills for reading comprehension word recognition and language comprehension Experts Antonio Fierro and Gabi Bell Jimenez will share research about the best ways to teach these skills to English learners.
Lori:Hi teacher friends. I'm Lori and I'm Melissa. We are two educators who want the best for all kids, and we know you do too.
Melissa:We worked together in Baltimore when the district adopted a new literacy curriculum.
Lori:We realized there was so much more to learn about how to teach reading and writing.
Melissa:Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.
Lori:Hi Gabi and Antonio, Welcome to the podcast. We are thrilled to have you here today.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:Thank you so much for having us.
Antonio Fierro:Thank you, it's really, it's so much fun. I mean, I've heard so much, we've heard so much about Melissa and Lori and all your podcasts, and to be on it it's just, it's a pleasure, thank you, and an honor. Thank you for having us.
Melissa:Absolutely, and we've been seeing you all at conferences. So we're so excited to actually have you here today and we're going to start by talking about the simple view of reading, which I think most of our listeners are probably pretty familiar with. The simple view of reading, which I think most of our listeners are probably pretty familiar with. But you know, the simple view of reading tells us that reading comprehension comes from both word recognition and language comprehension. But we're wondering, with the two of you we want to talk about, how does this all play out for English learners and, you know, how does their language proficiency impact those two big pieces of reading?
Antonio Fierro:Right, right, let me start off by really looking at this question a little bit deeper. Before we get started, though, let me just one quick caveat. Just a super quick caveat, and then we'll get to that question. Super quick caveat, and then we'll get to that question.
Antonio Fierro:So my colleague Gabi and I will be addressing this topic and we'll be using the term English learner right, and just want to go ahead and just mention very quickly that we're taking a look at this term based on what the Every Student Succeeds Act of 2015 also states, that an English learner is any student whose primary language is not English, whose English skills are not sufficient to be successful in the classroom and who has not yet tested proficient in English.
Antonio Fierro:The reason we want to bring this up real quick is because there are many terms that are being used out in the field, like multilingual learner, emergent bilingual, and we don't want to step on anybody's toes and think, oh, we're not addressing these issues. It just, basically, is a student who is, like the definition states, is still not proficient in English. Now, a multilingual learner may be a student, for example, who is in a program that is English-speaking and is learning, for example, another language like Spanish or a Native American language as well, or whatever the case might be, but the issues are very, or the challenges really are very, very similar. But we really are looking at the English learner period. Who is just not proficient in English as of yet, zach? Am I okay with that, Gabi?
Gabi Bell Jimenez:Absolutely. Clarity is love and we want to be absolutely certain that we are really thinking about our babies, who are home speakers of a language other than English and are going to school and acquiring content and language Absolutely.
Antonio Fierro:Which brings up, then again, going back to your question, melissa, about the simple view of reading and realizing that when we take a look at those two domains of word recognition and language comprehension, they also apply. They apply across the board. I mean, let's not kid ourselves, they apply across the board. So I need, I need to be able to identify those individual sound units, those speech segments of sound, uh, in words, and then identify and make that, that correspondence obviously to, to the grapheme or to whatever the, the symbol may be that represents that sound. Well, you know, in an alphabetic language we're talking about a grapheme, and in english, definitely, uh, a grapheme, uh, because you know, when we're talking about graphemes, we're talking up to what four individual or four letters that can represent a sound. So you know, when we're talking about graphemes, we're talking up to what four individual or four letters that can represent a sound. So, just, you know. So, realizing that, that we have to make that connection as a foundation and also realizing, just like, like my colleague Gabi mentioned, you know, what about content and what about vocabulary, what about comprehension. Yes, absolutely, that is crucial, that is crucial across the board, and there has just been just too many misconceptions or misunderstandings. Right about what is needed for the English learner line is that the English learner also needs to be able to make those connections at a very foundational area, that connection between that phoneme and that graphing, and then still pick up vocabulary and content knowledge that it's also going to be delivered. So it's absolutely necessary and our research has found that. I mean, was it back in 2006 when the National Literacy Panel on Language, minority Children and Youth was published? I invite our listeners to take a look at the executive summary. It's about a 13-page executive summary of the report and in that report it states also that our English learners also need those basic foundations of phonics, phonemic awareness, vocabulary, comprehension and fluency. And not a but, and and this is taken strictly or straight from the report and the accommodations, which we are going to call the amplifications or the scaffolds. We really love amplifications. You know what? I'm not even going to own that term. I'll give my colleague, Gabi the credit for that because it really makes sense. How do we amplify this learning? And it is a scaffold, but it takes more than that. It takes language. So the accommodations, as I was saying, are those scaffolds, those amplifications. All right. So the simple view of reading is just as necessary. I mean, it also is about the English learner, the key, not a but, and.
Antonio Fierro:And we have to embed language language development within the teaching of these skills. So it's it's a two-prong approach we're teaching the skill and we are, we have to support it with language. We have to support it with that level of oracy. All right, that is extremely, that's important. All right, because I am having to learn the language. So our English learners are doing double the cognitive work. All right, they're doing double the cognitive work. So we're having to and I say we because my colleague Gabi and I, we're both English learners. All right, so we have to be learning right. We have to be learning these new terms right. We have to learn this vocabulary, develop comprehension right, comprehension right and at the same time, you know, learn how this language works and the explicitness that is needed to teach our students how this language works. And we have been saying this really for years. And I go back to the report from the National Literacy Panel on Language, minority, children and Youth. Try saying that 10 times, real fast. That's a real tongue twister, because even and most importantly in this report, it also states the importance of oral language oracy.
Antonio Fierro:This was published almost 20 years ago, but our take on this is that maybe 20 years ago we just weren't ready as a field to really internalize these findings. We did not understand the basics of reading. We were on the verge, right. So the psychology of reading is what I received my training under. So I'm very happy that I spent 20 years working with Louisa Motz I still call her my teacher, my mentor and being taught about the psychology of reading. That really just got recoined or re-identified, you know. I mean now to the science of reading, all right, so it's important to understand all these areas of language.
Antonio Fierro:And how do we embed that, especially for our English learners? That is crucial. That is absolutely crucial. Let me also mention just one other thing. When we're talking about English learners, we have oral language development. That is the foundation, right, that's the foundation as we build on these skills. So as we are building phonemic awareness, right, and we are identifying, we're segmenting, for example, or isolating perhaps the first phoneme in a word, or segmenting the word into phonemes. That's the skill.
Antonio Fierro:Now, how do we embed language in there? How do we have you know, how do we explain or we have to explain what does this word mean, because I may not own it, I may never heard it before, I've never heard it before. So this this weekend, this week and this past week actually, I did some work outside of New York City and was introduced to jetty, to the word jetty, which is those you know, the, the, the, the boulders that that are placed along the beach for lack of erosion. Right, I had never heard that word before. All right, so I can have that word introduced to me, I can break it down into phonemes. But when I say jetty, I think of an airplane, I think of something up in the air. All right, so can you see how that affects comprehension as well? All right, this is a completely new word for me. Well, I live out in the desert.
Lori:All right, I was going to say you know you're not in that part of the area. Yeah, exactly.
Antonio Fierro:I had no idea what that was. All right. So now, so if I am told, you know, let's go ahead and break it down. You know, break down the word into phonemes, identify those phonographing correspondences. It would be very beneficial. I mean, I had to say it several times oh a jetty, wow, jetty, a jetty, all right, and then you know define what a jetty is, because if I hear the word jetty again, I'm thinking something's up in the air year, because I've never seen, I never heard that term before. It was just amazing. It just brings us back, it humbles you, it humbled me because it's like well, this is what our students go through. They don't, they don't never heard the word before. Now think about having this over and over and over and over and over again, and how necessary it was for me to see this jetty, to step on this jetty, although I didn't go on the jetty because there were signs all over the place that said stay off the jetty, dude, stay off the jetty. So going back here and thinking about oral oral language is the foundation. Now here's a, a huge misconception. Well, before I I get to that, I also want to say, and I think my colleague Gabi will agree with me.
Antonio Fierro:Working with English learners, as with all students, we have to have we as educators have to have this knowledge base of how language works. Knowledge base of how language works, all right. When I first started as a teacher, I was a bilingual teacher. I taught English and Spanish, but we had this umbrella term for all our English learners and everybody fell under this neat little umbrella. And so give yourself some grace, colleagues. Working with English learners means two things you really have to have a large, a strong knowledge base of how language works and also realize that for our English learners there's a huge, there's a wide variability of the linguistic repertoire that children bring with them when they attend school. I mean, there's this variability having to do with age. I mean there's this variability having to do with age. Right, experiences, right, you know the similarity and comparisons between languages as well. You know their own experience with literacy. You know, do they have literacy skills in their home language? And if so, you know some of those will transfer.
Antonio Fierro:But let's not over-romanticize the concept. There will also be some cognitive disson may not appear in certain positions in words. So now I have to be explicitly taught, explain how this sound works, this phoneme works in the final position, for example, of words, and I've done a lot of work in that area comparison between English and Spanish. But let's not get into that area right now. Let's talk about language. And here's a misconception. All right, I have oracy, I have oral language, right, that consists of three neat little domains the rules of language, the meaning of language and the pragmatics of language. All right, I'll repeat that the rules of language, the meaning of language and the pragmatics of language. So, as I'm developing these skills, I'm talking about those three domains. So let me just go over this just super quick, and then we'll go on to the next topic. So, rules of language Every language has its own phonology, its own series of phonemes and how those phonemes can be arranged and articulated.
Antonio Fierro:All right. So a perfect example English. For the most part, you know, we agree, that there are 44 phonemes in the English language, right? But Spanish, for example, where I do most of my comparisons, or all my comparisons, just most of my comparisons has half as many. So we have to respect these language systems of not only the home language, but definitely English. And how does that work? So let me go back. So, rules of language we're talking about the phonology, we're talking about the morphology and syntax, all right. So for rules or the organization of language, every language has its phonology, its morphology and its syntax, all right. So how are these words arranged to make these sentences? Right?
Antonio Fierro:Now let me go to the second domain, the meaning of language, and this is where we're talking about vocabulary, the meaning of words and my ability to use these words. But it also includes semantics, more as a broader topic, right? Semantics, which is the relationship and the proper sequence of words very closely related to syntax, right? So how are these words related to each other, for example? And then that transfers over to syntax. So I have the rules of language, phonology, morphology, syntax. I have the meaning of language, vocabulary and semantics. I have the meaning of language, vocabulary and semantics. And then I have pragmatics, which is the use of the language, all right. So that includes, you know, social skills, matching language to situations, conversation, storytelling, the ability to use the language.
Antonio Fierro:One of the things that my colleague and I, Gabi and I, look at when we are, or look for is when we are invited to do visits is how much language is going on in the classroom. There has to be language and this sounds very cheesy, and we've said this, I mean, I've said this for many, many years. You know, a chatty classroom is a learning classroom, all right. Learning classroom, right. And in a conference, in a session that my colleague Gabi
Antonio Fierro:and I did, she mentions about, you know, the one doing the talking is doing the thinking, and I thought that's brilliant, absolutely, the one doing the talking is doing the thinking. So lots of opportunities for that discussion to occur.
Antonio Fierro:Now here's the kicker here. So I said oral language, right. Oral language, rules of language, the meaning of language, the pragmatics of language, again, the rules of language, phonology, morphology, syntax Listen carefully, because there's one language system that's missing, all right. So rules of language, phonology, morphology, syntax, the meaning of language, vocabularyology, morphology, syntax, the meaning of language, vocabulary and semantics Right. And the pragmatics of language, which is the use, right. What is missing when we're talking about the language systems, orthography, the written component. And here is our, our understanding here. Here's the deal. That, that, that why? Why my colleague Gabi and I have really worked well together? Because we understand the importance of, yes, building oral language as a foundation that's going to get us to what? To written language, that gets us to really reading and writing.
Antonio Fierro:And many times what we see, colleagues, is that we are developing language and we have this misconception that, as we're developing language and that was me very you know, when I did not understand linguistics or did not understand language period that as I'm developing language, the misconception is that as I'm developing language, I'm also developing literacy skills, and that's not true. Language oracy is one thing. It serves a purpose, though. I need that as a foundation. I need that so that I can start making that connection to the written component, right, so that, so I can read and write. I need that, and so my colleague, Gabi, and I were talking about this not long ago and realizing that I do not have to, right, Gabi, I do not have to develop, I do not have to have language proficiency, I do not have to master.
Antonio Fierro:I mean, when do we master language anyway? Right? I mean seriously. You know, I've been working around language for 30 years and I had no idea what the heck a jetty was, you know. And so, and there was another word that I learned yesterday that I can't remember now because I didn't use it, I did not say it enough, I didn't use it enough, so now it's gone. All I know is it with an I. All right, but anyway so.
Antonio Fierro:So here's the deal.
Antonio Fierro:I, as I'm developing language, I'm using language to develop literacy.
Antonio Fierro:All right, I do not have to, I absolutely do not have to master, I do not have to have a high level of proficiency. I am building my level of proficiency orally and I'm using that to also develop what my literacy skills and those work together. It's easier said than done, but it actually is not that hard, because when you are aware that I need to have Gabi speak, for example, or I need to have Antonio speak or Lori speak or Melissa, I mean this is good, good instruction period. You know, we had this view or we had this understanding of language 10 years ago or so. It was really making its way and its understanding and its influence on overall literacy. But I don't think as a field, we were ready to understand that and I think now we really are and realizing now that I mean there's so many colleagues who are doing some wonderful work with language development, and not just for English learners but across the board, but we know that it's just so incredibly important as we are developing these skills.
Lori:Oh my gosh. So much there. That was like the biggest, best intro I think we've ever had on this podcast. I don't know about that but thank you.
Antonio Fierro:I think we've ever had on this podcast. I don't know about that, but thank you.
Lori:No, that was great Like you really set the stage, and I want to turn it to Gabi, because I feel like we both were doing a lot of nodding. Melissa was nodding, so is there anything that you'd like to add on, to extend anything that Antonio said that really resonated and you just want to think a little bit more about or speak a little bit more about.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:Absolutely.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:I think that it is worthwhile for us to double down on that very important nugget that we must not wait for English learners to acquire a specific level of English proficiency before we introduce literacy Right.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:We cannot, we must not, and that is not the way in which language is naturally acquired or literacy is naturally acquired.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:So if you have a five-year-old that is brand new to US schools whose home language is other than English, you don't need to keep that baby hostage until that baby knows absolutely every letter, name and letter sound. The fact of the matter is, if that baby knows one sure vowel and two consonants, you're cooking, you're cooking. You're cooking because you can start working with CVCs, right, and it makes sense for those CVdcs to come support it right, like teach the baby what is a word and show them what the word is and have utility for the word. And then two days later you introduce a second shirvawal and another consonant and you're just cooking more exotic dishes. But we must not hold our kids hostage to these imaginary thresholds connected to language to acquire literacy. The fact of the matter is that we cannot talk about nothing. We cannot learn about nothing. Language is connected naturally to content, so let's use the content and the six and a half hours that we have the privilege of having our kiddos at school to use the content as the leverage to learn literacy and learn language.
Antonio Fierro:So hashtag, cooking, hashtag, exotic dishes, right.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:Exotic dishes right.
Antonio Fierro:Exotic dishes, yes. And let me add just one more thing, and be mindful also of this wide variability, because we also have English learners who are newcomers at the middle school and high school level and my colleague and I have been writing about that as well and be able to. In this case, you can really take a look and use the experiences that that child might have, all right, and the linguistic repertoire that the child already possesses to make these transfers, especially if they are older. The challenge, and I'll be honest with you, is that when my colleague Gabi talks about these babies and these young kids who are coming in as newcomers, you know what they're not as hesitant to try the language, to experiment with the language, to overgeneralize with the language, they're going to do it all right. The issue is that they don't have too many experiences to draw from. On the flip side, our adolescent newcomer, for example, might have more experiences to draw from. The challenge is that you know he or she is older and we also want to belong right, we also want to be accepted to this social group of youngsters or adolescents. So maybe a little bit more hesitant to try the language, to experiment with the language, to overgeneralize with the language, and it's up to us to provide an environment where the student, especially adolescent, feels safe, right, feels secure, which means that also, then his or her peers must also be mindful of that level of respect and that level of compassion, for example, that they are. Also, they're learning, and why not have our English learner, especially an adolescent, teach us some words from his or her home language? So you see what I mean by variability. I mean the challenges and the skills that need to be taught for youngsters is going to be not different. They have to be differentiated, especially for our adolescents.
Antonio Fierro:The bottom line and this is my theory, only, this is Antonio's theory is the reason we have long-term English learners is that they have failed or we have not done a good enough job of making that connection between oracy and written language right. That bridge is still not solid, and this is what happens a lot. We have that English learner who is just outgoing, who, you know, really starts using the language and feels darn good, right, ah, but then, when it comes to reading and writing, that's a different story, and what they have done is that they have kind of fooled us into thinking oh, I really and I've said this. I think that there are many, many, many, many, many, many individuals who are linguistically gifted. They hear the language, they have the ability to use the language and they're off and running. They're off and running, but and there is well not above it and now they need explicit instruction to learn how the language is actually written and represented.
Lori:So they can read and write For sure. Yeah, I think that that's so important. And what you're making me think about is the idea of really frequent practice, right, Like this idea of not just teach, teach, teach, Like you both just got at that point where we're teaching something explicitly and then we're providing time for that very purposeful practice and we're going back and forth a lot in that. So, for example, Gabi, you gave that example with the CVC words and you could get them cooking, which means they could be reading and writing and building context, all three of ways, right, Like orally reading and written for those CVC words. But we need to do that kind of immediately. It's not like we're teaching all of the letter sounds and then going back and building those CVC words. It's just that's not even how we teach best practice for phonics instruction, scope and sequences. But I love the idea of that frequent practice, of making sure that we're kind of going back and forth.
Lori:Melissa and I a lot of times on our podcast we do a lot of sports analogies and you're making me think about my daughter right now. She's never played lacrosse before and she's 13. So she's like Antonio, that daughter right now. She's never played lacrosse before and she's 13. So she's that like Antonio, that like middle school learner right New learner and she's learning how to play lacrosse. Well, she's not. We're not going to wait to get into a game to practice, to like be the first time that we cradle, or you know, we're doing a lot of explicit instruction beforehand and then then she's going to go practice in the game and then there's going to be more explicit instruction, Then she's going to go play another game, back and forth. So I think sports kind of illuminates that back and forth really clearly for us and how that goes. I just think that's so important that we're giving our students that frequent practice in between those instructional bursts.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:I know nothing about sports, but I would say that at the linguistic level, it is of critical importance, especially for language learners, that we are taking special care in designing instructional opportunities that elicit productive language right. So we want a lot of speaking and we want tons and tons and tons of writing. It is important for us to engage in receptive skills. As an almost an adult English language learner, I was almost 18 when I started on my journey of learning English, so this accent is absolutely and completely authentic. I will never be able to do anything with it other than flaunt it. It required a lot of experiences to be able to engage in safe opportunities to use the language. My reading skills will always be at a higher level than my writing skills. My listening skills will always be at a higher level than my speaking, and because of that intention, I close in the gap by creating those opportunities. It's fundamental. I would say that it's important for children, but it's of critical importance for language learners.
Melissa:Okay. So one thing that I hear a lot, and I'm sure a lot of teachers do when we're talking about teaching English learners, is to build on English learners language strengths, whatever language it is that they speak, build on the strengths that they're bringing. I'm wondering, I know, like Antonio you kind of brought up, you know, like the phonemes, like half of the phonemes, are similar in Spanish. Is that one way that we can build on strengths, like the phonemes, like half of the phonemes, are similar in Spanish? Is that one way that we can build on strengths, like finding those similarities between languages? And that might be one example, but what else, like what else does that really mean for teachers to build on the language strengths?
Gabi Bell Jimenez:That is an excellent question. Language strengths or looking for finding those opportunities for students starts first and foremost with a belief system from the classroom teacher, from the school community, from the principal for the data analysis person in the district, and that belief system is rooted in knowing that English language learners, that English learners have more language than anybody else, because we already came with one, and that is a trick, because most people think like, oh, you're learning English and thus you might be lacking something.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:No, he just meant that you have double Like. You're so gifted and so talented that now you're making sense not only of your language, but you're making sense of the second language and you're attaching that one systemically. And you're doing that by having this set of Legos that is your home language and you know how to build with those Legos. And all of a sudden, now you have all these extra pieces that have different prongs and you're trying to see how it's going to fit into what you already know. And how is it that they are alike and how is it that it is different? Our ability to be able to play on strengths as adults that are absolutely committed and made a free choice to be in service of students, is connected to our own commitment of understanding. First and foremost, how is it that that home language is alike or different from English, and making sense of that for students? So one of the things that I love the most about all the extraordinary contributions that Dr Fierro have put forth in his career for intentional work with language learners is theory on positionality.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:I think that we were. I don't know, tony, where were we? We were in one of the conferences and you said someone's last name and I repeat it and I completely missed. Was it t or a d at the end. And so lovingly, he's like he repeated and I'm like come again. And he's like you use a t and it is a d, and I'm like because I only have 25 years of experience with English and in my home language that letter doesn't go there. It's a Lego piece that I don't use often. So if someone doesn't tell me, I'll be building all my things without a Lego piece, right? So like a philosophical stance, a belief system that, if anything, you are confronted with a human or with a set of humans in your classroom that simply have more, is really, really important.
Melissa:Yeah, I love that Lego analogy and like finding what fits together and what doesn't, and what you need to like build something new with. I really love that analogy a lot.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:Good, because I know nothing about sports Legos we know we can do Leg Legos.
Lori:Melissa just did a whole Lego room for her son, so this is great timing. I need a picture of the Lego room.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:We'll send it to you perfect timing this is the it's really important.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:Continue to think about this Lego analogy. That is really, really important. If I am not taught how to use the Lego piece, I will not use it, and if I do not use it, I will not gain mastery. So I am not building all the things that I could be building because I don't have a way of doing that. Thinking about, for example, adolescent English learners A few years ago I had the privilege, and I was fortunate enough, to start thinking about how do we develop language and literacy simultaneously for kiddos that are kind of new to language, and I was also looking at kiddos that were long-term ELLs students that have been with us for more than six years and yet they have not been reclassified as language learners.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:And one of the things that I was that I found was that kiddos had oracy that surpassed their ability to be able to encode, to write. So I would show students a picture six, seven, eight, tenth graders and they had lots and lots of things that they could say about the picture and I would tell them now let's write only 10 things out of the 30 things that you said, and they would use words as gorgeous. They'll say like this is absolutely gorgeous when they were going, went in to write and they would use words as gorgeous. They'll say like this is absolutely gorgeous. When they went in to write it, they would write pretty and I'm like that's peculiar, I know, you know, gorgeous and they're like I don't know how to start cooking with a word. So this idea of explicit teaching makes a lot, a lot, a lot of sense.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:Now there is almost a trick that we play on teachers sometimes, in that in the United States, we are protected as language learners and our school systems, our districts, our classrooms, our schools need to report back to the state. How we said that we're being taken care of. So we are being assessed in an English proficiency assessment on the yearly, okay, and when teachers get back that report, it would say Gabi. So Gabi lives in Wisconsin, so we do the WIDA assessment. So Gabi is a solid 3.6 in a scale of six points. So that means that Gabi is able to do this, this, this, this and this.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:Now, this is the trick. The assessment tells you what I am able to do today. So if, as a classroom teacher, I look at the list of things that I can do today and rather than saying, oh, this is what Gabi can do today, but these are the things that she needs to be able to do tomorrow so she can continue to grow, but rather says, oh, this is what Gabi can do today, so I cannot expect anything else from Gabi than what she can do today. Then, in this scenario, my language will not grow. So for language learners, we must think about how do we amplify language rather than simplify language. The money is in more Lego pieces, not less pieces. It's in building bigger and better things.
Lori:Because, if anything I have more language, sure, and you, in your example, you actually showed that right With the language learners who, who were you? They were describing the photo or the picture that you showed them, and if they're saying gorgeous out loud but then writing pretty, they're connecting that, that, that they're similar, related terms. They're probably able to even do like a shades of meaning where if you gave them like beautiful, gorgeous, pretty, you know you could do a whole thing. But they also can do that then in their home language, which is pretty amazing, like that's so cool, and I think that that's like one of the key takeaways that I'm taking from this is that our English learners not only are they working double, but they know double right, they or triple. They know so much more than I think the surface shows.
Melissa:I was just gonna say and I loved what you talked about with that that the WIDA assessment and thinking about, well, what's next right With what Lori just talked about, like, okay, now I need to think about this, these spelling patterns that they're avoiding when they're writing, and how do I give them those Lego blocks so they have that to build with as well?
Gabi Bell Jimenez:So there, are really really clear ways in which we can support our classroom teachers into doing that. One of the ways is making visible that, as we said a little bit ago, that you cannot learn about nothing. You cannot talk about nothing. You cannot write about nothing. You cannot read about nothing. You write about nothing. You cannot read about nothing.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:You're always doing all those things in relationship to content. We're always doing the those things in service of communication. So our ability to be able to make sense of not only what is the great level rigor at the content level but also make visible what is the language that you need to be able to do that and making that part of your daily practice will ensure two things A that you are not systemically removing language learners, english learners, from grade-level content. That is like hashtag number one Rigor for everyone. Do not please systemically excuse kiddos that are learning English out of classrooms because you don't believe that they can attend to the grade-level content, but make visible what is the language that you need to be able to do that out of classrooms because you don't believe that they can attend to the grade level content, but make visible what is the language that you need to be able to do that.
Antonio Fierro:What do you think, Dr Fierro? Oh my gosh, I'm applauding you from over here. I mean, yeah, I just want to let you know that I'm just applauding you from afar. Right, I mean, that's yes, absolutely. And let me just add when we're talking about MTSS and we're talking about Tier 1 instruction my colleague hit it, nailed it Our English learners need to have Tier 1 instruction as well, Every day. Differentiation within tier one, differentiation within tier one, which would mean maybe perhaps multiple opportunities for practice, or more opportunities for practice, maybe some, some, uh, some, uh, more examples, for example, uh, or, or even longer wait time. I mean, those are the things that that differentiate. But I, uh, Gabi, you were, you were so uh, right on, spot on, spot on, spot on. I get chills. I got chills on that one.
Lori:I do want to dive into a little bit deeper what we just touched on, so these practical examples of strategies that teachers can use to really tap into the language strengths of their English learners. I'd love to hear some more examples and then, like, dig into those. So I don't know, antonio, would you kick us off?
Antonio Fierro:Yeah, I mean it goes back to and I know Gabi has other examples as well that needs to be addressed and it goes back though. It goes back to understanding or realizing that when we're talking about structured literacy and we're talking about the how that for our English learners, this is so incredibly important that the instruction has to be direct and it has to be systematic. We cannot take anything for granted. So we're talking about still, I mean, we're talking about explicit instruction, we're talking about it being sequential, we're talking about it being cumulative, so there's not going to be anything different. Data-driven, absolutely data-driven. We're talking about it being cumulative, so there's not going to be anything different. Data driven, absolutely data driven. And you know, I mean that's what's sometimes very alarming when we take a look at the data that we have on our English learners across the country approaches, highly interactive, and that's where the language comes in. So that's the how of structural literacy. The what is what we've been talking about and what my colleague Gabi has been talking about as well. We're talking about that. We still need that phoneme-graphing correspondence. We still need to have an understanding of morphemes, especially in English, that syllable and stress patterns, the orthographic conventions and why it is that we spell the way we do, but also have an understanding of vocabulary and semantic background knowledge. So all those areas that we talk about structured literacy overall right, and the reason I bring it up is because there's been some pushback that structured literacy is really just about phonics or it's not necessary for the English learner. No, take a look at what do we mean by structured literacy and look at what the great information, great research that IDA has published In a mindset, in the global concept, that explicitness is so incredibly important, as my colleague Gabi mentioned.
Antonio Fierro:What about that theory of positionality? You know, the thing is that we may have, like in English and Spanish, we have same phonemes, we have similar phonemes or identical phonemes, but, as she mentioned in her example, in Spanish, for example, some of these phonemes are not found in certain position, usually the final position. So this is why many of our English learners swallow their endings, not only because perhaps that phoneme does not appear in their home language, but also they're less aspirated at the end of a word. So we have to be those great models of language. So, in an overall and Gabi can go deeper into this I also want to mention that the oldies but goodies are still just as effective today as they were 20 years ago, and what I mean by that are using illustrations to support the instruction and the learning, using pictures to support that realia, you know, the real stuff, total physical response, acting that what that word is all about or what that sentence may be related to.
Antonio Fierro:And then, when it comes to the instruction itself, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, additional practice, longer wait time, because the student is processing information, and processing information across two different languages and transferring that information. But all along the way, though, we've got to embed language, so language has to be embedded throughout that. But that's in a global sense. What are some of those necessary scaffolds? And whenever there's a prompt, the student, it's necessary for the student to repeat that prompt, which is to respond in a full sentence, for example with a scaffolding that teacher uses.
Antonio Fierro:So the I do, we do, you do, is very, you know, explicit instruction. It's so necessary for our English learners, and a colleague of mine reminded me of this. You know what, antonio, why don't you add one more I do, we do, you all do, which we say in Texas right, I do, we do, you all do, and then you do. Or, if you're up north, I do, we do, yous do or you alls do or something like that, and then you do. So those are new terminologies too that I learned when I was up in New York. So we add that additional segment of you all do where you are working with, with your peers around you.
Melissa:Yeah, Antonio, can I ask one clarifying question in there, with all those great things that you said, but pictures are sometimes getting a bad rap. Showing pictures because you know we don't want students to guess at decoding a word, because of yeah, show them the picture. But what? But I think what you're saying here is not to replace decoding with guessing from the picture, but to give meaning to that word.
Antonio Fierro:Absolutely. Thank you so much, and Gabi will also. I know she also has, you know, some very set ideas on that. And I agree especially it's not the picture to help with the decoding or to take the place of decoding, but it's the picture of the illustration to help with the comprehension and to be able to store it into long-term memory. So when we're talking about that picture, we're already talking. We already talked about the phonology of that word, we talked about the orthography of that word. You know what does that word mean and even you know the morphology. If there's well, every word has, you know, at least one morpheme. But is there anything more? What story does that word have to tell? And then you back it up with the picture or the illustration and there has to be a fine line there, because I don't want to replace the rigor, right, Gabi? I mean, that is, you were talking the other day, or yesterday or the day before, about over scaffolding, right?
Gabi Bell Jimenez:Yes, when you ask the question about images, I'm like can I take that one please? May I spend a couple of minutes on it? Absolutely Okay, please can. May I spend a couple minutes on it? Absolutely okay. So remember that we're talking amplification while making language bigger and better. We are playing with more lego pieces so we can build bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger things.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:So every time that we're thinking about what is the support system that we're going to use to amplify language, we need to ask ourselves is this in service of language production or meaning making? That's how you know if you're going to use it. Will this help us use language? And if it does, is that language going to serve the master of content and language development? It cannot be for the opposite. Okay.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:So many times we misuse images and we use them as a way to rob kiddos from the opportunity of using language. That is not what we want. We want what is diametrically the opposite thing. So we do not want to come up with five words from a text that we think the kiddos are not going to understand, show them a picture of it and say this is what this is, because now you just draw them from any opportunity to engage in cognitive struggle and rigor and talk around, exactly like talk around and about a concept, to see if we can naturally arrive to that specific word. And note that the objective is not, nor should be, the expectation that students are always going to be able to naturally arrive, but by suggesting to their psyche and creating opportunities for us to talk about things, we are going to build a cognitive schema to which we can attach a word. Okay, so a way in which and I have benefited, I'm going to say this, I have benefited from being trained, um by dr ira walkie on from west ed on amplification and like she is like the master theorist connected to that, so she would um train us and teach us that then, rather than doing that like showing the kid the picture this is the word now go at it into the world, because now you have a match from one or the other, you would really intentionally identify what are the key vocabulary words that I need this kiddo to understand, and that requires some planning.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:It will require for me, first and foremost, to ask myself what is the why of this text, why, of all the texts in the universe that I could have chosen for instruction, this is the one. What is it about this text that kiddos need to know a year from now? How is it that this text is enhancing their quality of life? And then, by answering those questions, I will know. This is the why of the text. This is why this text is fundamentally important. And then this is the vocabulary, the key idea or the concept the vocabulary, the key idea or the concept. Then I have A identify, the key vocabulary, and I could select an arrangement or three or four images that are connected with each other. That will be visual representations of that idea and I will tell my students. This works with second graders, 10th graders, 12th graders. I think it also works with spouses, I don't know. I think it works with second graders, 10th graders, 12th graders. I think it also works with spouses, I don't know. I think it works with all humans.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:And you can pull the first picture out and you say I'm going to show you three pictures. They are about the same concept and idea. I want you to look at the first picture and I want you to think and make notes for yourself about what that is. And then, after that, after you have done your own thinking, I want you to think and make notes for yourself about what that is. And then, after that, after you have done your own thinking, I want you to connect with a friend and I want to show you a second picture. Now, as more pictures are being shown, I am revealing more about what a concept is, and the kids are getting better and better and better about trying to define what is it that it is, and better about trying to define what is it that it is. By the third picture, it is very likely that, as a collective, we have identified, we have been able to define what that idea is, and then, as a classroom teacher, I can say this is the key vocabulary.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:This is the word. This is the word in English for it. This is how many syllables the word has. This is how the word is alike or different. This is about a specific spelling in it. Pay attention about this specific syllable structure inside of the word. But note that now the word is the easy part because I have already built, it's already lived in my tongue, it lives in my mind and now I'm ready to accept the text and engage with the text because I understand the arc of the why. How is that, melissa? For like an idea of how to use images.
Melissa:Yes, that makes so much more sense, and I mean it makes a lot of sense for building that true understanding of a word, versus, like you said, you know, just using the illustration on the page for someone to guess at. You know, that's what this I think this word might be this, because there's an illustration of it on the page Like that's not what you're saying at all. You're saying like building this deep understanding of that key vocabulary. So then they're ready when they read a text, absolutely.
Antonio Fierro:And my colleague does that so well, and it's really taking these illustrations and narrowing down what the concept is that she's trying to get across. But notice that, when it's realized, notice that she didn't stop there, right? I mean, then she talked about what does this word, what story does this word, have to tell? Is this word, what story does this word have to tell, from the sense of syllabication, for example, or syllable patterns, from a sense of phonology? Is there something in particular about this word that helped me lead to, then, what the word actually means? Are there more themes in there that I can now expand on? So the bottom line is that she is talking about meaning, but also form. All right, so meaning and form. So that is incredibly, incredibly important. So it's a complete process that she has done.
Lori:So, like if we wanted to run through that, let's just say I'm a second grade teacher, my class is reading a book about sea turtles that are going to be hatching or living around a jetty, ok, and I let's like, let's go full circle, my class, I'm fairly sure. Let's say I'm a teacher in Texas Antonio, just for the sake of this. So pretty sure my students have no idea what a jetty is, and both English learners and my students who are not English learners right, probably everyone could benefit from this, and that's also something I love about these. Like to me, the activity you just described, Gabi, is great for all learners, right. Like to me, it's just a global pre-reading post, like post-reading extension, like it's good for everyone.
Lori:Okay, so let's say our kiddos are going to read a story and they're not sure about we know they're not going to know Jetty. So maybe the first picture I put up is of a beach and we just situated in a beach and we talk about a beach and then, okay, they're, they're identifying that. Then we're talking, maybe they're sand and waves, so there's other vocabulary coming in, right, and you all can jump in. I'm just just playing around here. Then the next one is like, okay, maybe there's some, some, some of these big rocks on the beach and we're getting like a a more zoomed out view and there's some rocks. And the kids are like, why are there big rocks on the beach? So maybe we're thinking rocks, boulders, might come up, you know, maybe, and we're like, oh well, I don't know if that's as big as a boulder, you know, let's, let's think about it, but I, you know. Then the third picture is something else that's helping them investigate it even further.
Antonio Fierro:Maybe the third picture would be of a beach eroding. I mean, there'd be some erosion because the jetty is going to be there for the sake for the purpose of preventing the erosion, yeah.
Lori:Oh, I love that. Okay, see, I knew we could put our brains together and do this All right.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:Yes, and thinking about what is. So going back to the fundamental question about the text and the lesson. So, going back to the fundamental question about the text and the lesson, what is the most fundamental about this lesson a year from now? What is the big idea that I want the kiddos to have? Is it about erosion? Is it about habitats? And once we are really clear, once we can answer, what is it about this second grade lesson that I need these students to remember when they are 20, that then I know what is it that I'm driving for.
Lori:I love this so much because there's so many questions we get from teachers in our inbox about well, how does what I'm teaching in this you know curricular unit about? Let's say, they're building knowledge on birds, right, and my students are learning about birds how does this extend to the real world? How? How does this extend to other topics? But I think it's not about the birds, it's about it's not about the birds, it's about understanding animal habitats. It's about understanding the concept of predators and prey, Interdependency, yeah, All those big features. I mean think about all the things with flight you're exploring with the wingspan and how that transfers over into so many other pieces of life and the world around.
Antonio Fierro:And think about your example, laurie, about the jetty, I mean. So this is just one thing thing, but what's the bigger takeaway? What about erosion, you know? What about habitat? You know how does that contribute to that as well.
Antonio Fierro:So I I don't know if you were, you're going to add anything more to that, but there, now, now we've, we've added to it, and what's important here is that, as my colleague was talking about, is how there's communication, there's talking going on as we're looking at these illustrations of these pictures, and we're talking about it. We're writing. Notice that she said we're writing about it as well. So we're developing all these skills. So, in actuality, now, now you know, we're talking about language from the sense of function. This is the function of language. You get this thought across. And now what are the concepts that I learned? That's the function of language, both in oracy, oral language and written language, but also form, and that was so, so critical about the example that we're talking about that we finish up with this is what the jetty is, this is how this is the word and this is how it is spelled, and these are the representations, but the overall concept was just so huge.
Lori:So much bigger than that, and in the meantime you can also teach. So I just happened to look it up. The morphology of it that you know, for example, jet, is from French and Latin, but it means like to sprout or spurt forth to shoot out to throw, I mean that's exactly what those rocks are doing, right, they're jutting out, they're shooting out.
Lori:And I think that that so we can weave all this in in the bigger picture of erosion, in the bigger picture of yes, we're reading this story, we're going to learn about habitats and erosion and this is going to transfer over. This knowledge is going to transfer these. This morphology that we're learning, this etymology I'm sorry that was etymology, not morphology, I'm sorry that we're learning is going to transfer over. So I love this so much. It's so important to think about this in a bigger context and I'm so glad that we're talking about this.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:No monolinguals will be harmed in doing this. I just want to say hashtag monolinguals are safe, right, like all the babies in the classroom. No one will be harmed by this, by this, no one will be harmed. But this is absolutely critical if you're learning a second language. I remember, because I was nearly an adult, when I started on my journey for english. I would remember coming home at the end of the school and I prayed that no one would talk to me because I was talked out.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work to learn language and content, and if we, as those that are designing the content, can make visible for students, why is it that this matters? First, engagement goes off the roof, because if you can articulate, why on earth, it's not about the others, right, it is about this larger picture. We are increasing engagement, we have increased utility, and then it pays up for me to put all of that extra effort into learning content and language. Student attendance increases when they know that you're going to keep on talking about the thing that they really want to talk about. So can I give you another example, like a really, really like clear example on how easy that we can move this let's see with a common core for grade three, all right. This let's see with a common core for grade three, all right.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:So across the United States, every single state, have adopted, of course, content standards. Let's think about literacy, and for the language learners, we also have language development standards. So we're always playing with these two sets of standards. Let's think about third grade Across the entire nation, regardless of what standards you have adopted Common Core or something specific like in Texas, california, new York every single third grade across the nation is expected to write informational texts. The standard might be a different number, it might have different words, but everybody in third grade is writing informational text.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:So from Common Core, that is really widely used Common Core for third grade, standard number two says that students are going to develop the topic with facts, definitions and details. That is all that Common Core tells you and you're like okay, that's cute, we can do that. What is the language that you need in order to be able to do that? So let's pretend that you're Common Core and you are in Illinois. So you do WIDA, that is used for 41 states. So WIDA whispers into your ear informational texts that say that you can use prepositional phrases to describe places or locations Like, for example, next to the water. So now let's put both of those things together and have a single learning target for that string of lessons. That would be that as a 3rd grader, I will develop the topic with facts and definitions by using prepositional phrases to describe places and location.
Antonio Fierro:So now you just have more language.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:You have more lego pieces. As I said, no monolingual is going to be harmed by this. This is going to help your instruction because it's going to give you an emphasis, a focus point to come in, and it's going to be able to help you make that visible. So I want to read a single sentence that has from an informational text that has a prepositional phrase, and I'm going to show you how it's said that I would use it in service of language development. Let's say that I'm reading about earthworms.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:Probably I should have chosen another word, because that's a hard word to say Earthworms. Probably I should have chosen another word, because that's a hard word, to say earth worms. Like the little worms, can you say you do it right earthworms, did I do it right? So earthworms and we know that these are amazing creatures that live in the soil.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:Okay, now the second sentence for our paragraph might be they, theworms, help plants grow by moving through the dirt. If I would have said that they help plants by moving in the dirt, I would have missed an opportunity of expanding how we said that moving through the dirt is what is allowing them to do a work that is ultimately going to oxygenate the earth and allow an opportunity for plants to be able to germinate from it right. So spending time on those prepositional phrases allows the English learner to be able to expand from simple sentences to complex or compound sentences, depending on how we say that we're using it. Sentences to complex or compound sentences, depending on how we say that we're using it, but also gives us clues about how we say that language is allowing us to access the content. Is that helpful?
Lori:So much, so much. I feel like every third grade teacher listening you're just like speaking their love language right now, like thank you for being so practical about that. That that's like, yes, I mean every third grader. I mean you're, and you're coming up with so many lessons. What is a preposition? Using it in context? We're learning about earthworms. We need to be reading about earthworms and building knowledge about earthworms right and vocabulary there Oxygenate. I heard that. So there's so many opportunities for that to happen and I love that prepositional phrase focus. It's very clear.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:And that is what we want Ultimately. I think that these are like the big takeaways Please keep your language learners and protect your language learners by ensuring that we continue I'm one of those. I'm one of them by giving us access to rigorous, grade level content. Do not simplify language for us. We have more language than most. Give us more, amplify language for us and do love us enough to give us context and explain to us how easy that that works. And when you're attending to language in service of rigor, remember the language has two parts that are completely connected from each other. Language has form Antonio spoke about form and it also has a function. Why is it that we're using language in service of what, and how is it that we're making meaning of it? So just keep those things in your heart as you continue to serve language learners. We are everywhere, we're an important population, we continue to grow and we have so much that we want to offer to the communities that we serve. We just need the opportunity to be able to do that.
Melissa:Well, we could keep talking to you all for hours, but we really can't thank you enough, for I mean all of the research-based information you shared, the practical strategies you shared the personal examples, the analogies that helped us understand it. So, thank you all so much for all that you shared with us today. We really appreciate it.
Antonio Fierro:You're quite welcome. It was a joy and it was so much fun. Such a pleasure. Thank you so so much. You're quite welcome.
Gabi Bell Jimenez:It was a joy and it was so much fun. Such a pleasure. Thank you so so much. You're superstars.
Melissa:To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list at literacypodcastcom, join our Facebook group and follow us on Instagram and.
Lori:Twitter. If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share with a teacher friend or leave us a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts.
Melissa:Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests of the Melissa and Lori Love Literacy Podcast are not necessarily the opinions of Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Lori:We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to learn with us.