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A Classroom Fluency Protocol That Works with Aaron Grossman

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Episode 225

How do we turn fluency instruction into something engaging, meaningful, and effective? Fourth-grade teacher Aaron Grossman has the answer.

In this episode, Aaron shares his fluency protocol, inspired by Chase Young’s work, that helps students develop prosody, comprehension, and confidence through Reader’s Theater. He walks us through his structured 5-day cycle, from introducing scripts to students writing their own, and how performance-based reading transforms fluency instruction.

You'll learn:
 ✅ How repeated reading and performance build fluency
 ✅ Where to find great scripts—or have students create their own
 ✅ How to support students at different reading levels

Whether you're looking for new ways to engage your students in fluency practice or practical strategies to help struggling readers, this episode is packed with actionable insights!


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Melissa:

Today we're talking with Aaron Grossman, a fourth grade teacher who uses an innovative fluency protocol built around Reader's Theater to help his students read automatically, with expression and comprehension.

Lori:

Aaron breaks down his five-day cycle, how he scaffolds fluency instruction and how students go from practicing scripts to writing their own. If you're looking for a fun and effective way to boost fluency in your classroom, this episode is for you. Hi teacher friends, I'm Lori and I'm Melissa. We are two educators who want the best for all kids, and we know you do too.

Melissa:

We worked together in Baltimore when the district adopted a new literacy curriculum.

Lori:

We realized there was so much more to learn about how to teach reading and writing.

Melissa:

Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today. Hi, aaron, we are so excited to have you on the podcast today to talk about fluency, because it's one of my favorite topics and I know Lori's favorite topics too, so welcome.

Aaron Grossman:

Thank you, it's really great to be here.

Lori:

You are a fourth grade teacher and we know you prioritize fluency instruction as really important time for your students. So can you tell us why fluency is such a focus in your classroom?

Aaron Grossman:

Well, I know that you probably have listeners who've listened to many of the more profound guests that you've had on your show, but we know that when kids can read fluently, when they aren't disfluent, they're more likely to comprehend what they've read. Moreover, I just think it's another way of either building background knowledge, reinforcing content and getting kids into material in a different way.

Melissa:

Yeah, and we should say our teachers are our most profound guests and I think everyone would agree with that, even those other guests. All right, so we know you have a really cool protocol that you told us all about. So we want to know more about the five-day cycle. So we'll get into how that five-day cycle changes over the year, but first just tell us, like, what do you do in this five-day cycle for fluency?

Aaron Grossman:

Well, full attribution. So I know that one of your previous guests was Dr Chase Young, and so my protocol is sort of a bit of a riff from what he created. So let me acknowledge that and also acknowledge that he was a primary teacher. I'm working with intermediate grades, so that's a slight twist. But in general the protocol looks like the following, which is on Monday morning I'll have a series of scripts laid out for my students and either I distribute them or they sign up for a script, just depending on that particular week and how I'm trying to change things up for them.

Aaron Grossman:

So on Monday they get the script, they read all the way through it and then they put it away.

Aaron Grossman:

On Tuesday they take back out the script and then they meet with whoever has the same script as them. In general these are groups of three to five students, so at that point they'll negotiate parts. Once they've reconciled who has what part, they'll read all the way through it with each other again and because of the scripts I'm using, which we can return to in a moment, they can get through those scripts at least once or twice in that first reading on Tuesday together, on Wednesday and Thursday, friday. That's largely about continuing to rereading it. Now kids are prompting each other, or I'm prompting them with more prosody, greater expressions, moving this pace. If there's words they can't pronounce, I can assist them, or one of the iPads can also answer questions for them, and then on Friday that's an opportunity to present so they've done all that work and then they get to share with their classmates and, as you noted, not to get too far ahead of us, but that presentation can also change throughout the week and throughout the course of the year.

Melissa:

So we're talking about Reader's Theater here. Yes, yes.

Aaron Grossman:

Okay, just to name it Almost exclusively, and I probably should have prompted. I'm glad you said something. Yeah, I use Reader's Theater as the primary driver for the fluency practice I do in my classroom.

Melissa:

And I had one other question for you before we get into this, like how you change it throughout the year, which is so exciting. But when you give out those parts, I was really curious, like, do you? I could imagine that you like plan out those parts and who gets which parts and who's in which groups. Am I right there, or is it just like a random?

Aaron Grossman:

you get what you get.

Aaron Grossman:

So it's. So, let's let's follow this. So there's a there's a bifurcation there. So there's the scripts and then there's the parts. Within the scripts, the students always negotiate who gets what parts, and sometimes that just becomes rock paper scissors if they can't agree on who's the narrator and who's one of the protagonists. With respect to actually distributing the scripts, sometimes I will put the groups together myself. In other instances I will literally list the titles of the scripts and how many parts are in each scripts, and the kids, when they come in in the morning, they will sign up for the script. And then you know I'm sure there are listeners who are familiar with technology where you can randomize groups and that becomes your group. So throughout the year, just to keep things fresh, I have different protocols for how I decide to distribute those scripts.

Lori:

And we're going to talk about them today, right?

Aaron Grossman:

Yes, of course.

Lori:

All right. So you change this protocol over the course of the year, you know, as students become more and more familiar with the routine. So let's talk about the three phases and start with phase one. But if you could just do like a quick overview and then we can dive into phase one. But if you could just do like a quick overview and then we can dive into phase one.

Aaron Grossman:

Speaking very broadly, and I don't want to think that this is always linear. We can return to different phases, but at the very beginning of the school year and this always takes at least about a quarter I'm trying to get kids to understand one. Why are we even doing fluency? And I do break that down for them. I describe what fluency is and one of your previous guests, dr Tim Rosinski, I use a rubric he created and so I help them understand what that is. And then that's when I will share scripts and I'll also introduce the protocol and what's important about the phase one and I know that many of your listeners know this.

Aaron Grossman:

One of the great paradoxes for teachers is figuring out how am I always moving forward while also filling any gaps for kids who might come to our classroom with some challenges, and so a lot of those scripts that I'm using in the first quarter they're either previewing content or they're revisiting things that I just want to make sure they've mastered. So I have scripts around subject and predicates. I have scripts around I'm fourth grade, I'm doing more work around habitats and ecosystems and I want to ensure that they understand animal adaptations, which is a third grade standard. So the scripts can serve that function as well.

Lori:

I love that. That's so helpful. Okay, that like really puts a good framework in my mind.

Aaron Grossman:

Yeah. So we're building some groundwork in the first phase and then the second phase. That's when we begin to iterate. So at that point I've been doing most of the writing. I've been creating the scripts. Now in phase two they start writing scripts. They're so familiar with the template and the protocol and the value of having a narrator and how a narrator can do the exposition in a setting. They just have a general understanding. So they're writing their own scripts but I'm kind of, largely speaking, telling them which content they're going to be writing that from. So you know, 20 years ago I was probably doing jigsaws with some of this.

Lori:

Instead.

Aaron Grossman:

Now what I'm using is the reader stator script to present a chunk of text to their classmates. Oh, okay, we'll have to dive more into that. Yes, and then also in phase two, we changed the performances. So traditionally it was always us performing with each other, and now they're performing with other classmates. Kids have been presenting so much in the first quarter that now they're seeing, oh, when we stand a certain way, when we use certain gestures, and so we become more theatrical with some of those script presentations. And then in phase three, that's when we get much more creative. So very recently we grabbed writing from a second grade classroom and then the task of my students was to take other students' writing of seven-year-olds and then turn it into scripts and really bring to life what somebody else had written for them. And then there's certain other things we can do in that phase as well, including just write a script on something that is of general interest to you, instead of me being the person who's telling you always what to write about.

Lori:

Okay, so let's backtrack now. Thank you for that overview. I think that's helpful. Let's, now that we have this framework in our mind, let's backtrack to phase one. How do you introduce fluency? How do you set the expectations for students? What skills do you focus on? How do students apply them? All this good stuff.

Aaron Grossman:

Well, let me start with slowly, so we don't want it. We know cognitive load theory and you've had guests who've spoken on that subject as well, so we don't want to overwhelm them. So, in general, the very first thing is we describe just what the value of fluency is, and at that point it's how do we present information that is at an appropriate rate and we're reading accurately? And that very first script I'll share with them. In general it's all of my students are reading from the same script, so they can see how other students are actually interpreting some of that content. Then we move into the rubric that Dr Tim Brzezinski developed and, I'll be honest, I reformatted that a bit so it's a little bit more student-friendly language. And so we break down things like prosody and specifically that includes appropriate expression, pace, smoothness, and we define what those are.

Lori:

Erin, can I jump in no-transcript? Where can I get this rubric? We will link it in the show notes. It's a fluency expression rubric. We liked it so much too, aaron, that Melissa and I linked it in our book because it's such a great rubric to help students have that reflection on expression. Totally agree. So anyway, just if you're listening and you want this rubric it's in the show notes. Probably also we'll share it somewhere on social media. So go ahead, aaron.

Aaron Grossman:

And maybe I should also add the phases that I'm describing for you. I know that's going to be linked in the show notes and, moreover, I actually linked to the Rosinski rubric as well.

Lori:

Oh, you did, you put it right in there. Yeah, yes, there you go, and I and you alluded to it earlier.

Aaron Grossman:

At just two teacherscom, which is my own sort of teacher website, there's a whole sectionader's Theater, and then you can see some more student friendly interpretations of prosody as well.

Lori:

Yeah, Actually, we should tell the story real quick that when we were thinking about guests for fluency, we saw you on the Goyen Foundation's website. Right, Am I right, Melissa? Yeah, and then Melissa was like oh, Aaron, and I was like he's just two teachers, and she's like no, he's just one. I was like I know that's his website.

Melissa:

Oh, his website, his website.

Aaron Grossman:

Anyway, now everybody has your website too, yes, and everything's free there, which is not supposed to be too self-referential, but if I'm going to allude to something, I do want somebody who's particularly interested in this. How do they bring it to life very quickly, without any kind of expense. And so, having defined prosody, having performed one time all the way through, that's when I start taking different scripts and putting them out and we can go. What are some of the scripts I've developed? And I'll be perfectly frank, most of these are being developed with large language models in which I can put in very specific parameters around.

Aaron Grossman:

You know this needs to be 500 words long. That's how I can get to scripts that can be read all the way through in about five minutes. You know I can define the number of parts, I can include key vocabulary. But interestingly, you know we start in August and one of the very first scripts that my kids start working with is around indoor recess games in anticipation of smoke days and then later snow days. Instead of me teaching them the games, we are doing what I, you know, steal from Travis Kelsey two things at once. So we're developing fluency, we're learning different indoor recess games.

Melissa:

Nice. I love that Practical but also with a purpose.

Aaron Grossman:

And again, I just think you have a lot of teachers who are listening, which is well, how do we do this? How do we always keep that instructional time for directive? So for me, it's never just about fluency, it's always in conjunction with something else.

Melissa:

Right and you're saying, like you start with something like that to get them into the routines, you wouldn't be doing indoor recess kind of things for the whole year. That's just the initial. You know, we're just getting comfortable with routines, so this is something that's an easy lift for them.

Aaron Grossman:

Exactly, and they're excited. And then you know that's an opportunity. From now that we've learned how to play scrambled eggs, let's just do it now. And it's, you know, part of that community culture building that we are trying to get established in the first month.

Lori:

Yeah, and you mentioned that they that they work on learning, like what a narrator is, what the exposition is, what the rising action means and the falling action. Can you talk a little bit more about that and just explain how you teach that within the beginning of the year?

Aaron Grossman:

Well, my guess is I'm probably teaching it a lot, like many of your listeners are teaching it, which is, largely speaking, it's driven from one of our curricular resource I'm using.

Aaron Grossman:

But it affords me another opportunity, just through some repetition and additional experiences, to say, within this reader's theater script, can we identify what the setting is and what is the problem? Because we know that we should have some kind of problem or rising action at the very beginning, otherwise we're just going to lose our reader. And so for me it's initially explicitly finding those links and then later it's putting the lift on the students so they can find those, and then much later down the line, when we're in sort of that phase three, when we're providing fear feedback on a particular script that somebody or a group of students have written. Well, what kind of feedback are we providing? And so they should be able to pull those things out At this point. If you walked up to any one of my students, they could tell you an introduction always concludes character setting. It's some kind of problem arising action, like it's such muscle memory at this point. But that is just born of all of these additional experiences they get with some of these literary terms.

Melissa:

All right, are we ready to talk about phase two?

Aaron Grossman:

Absolutely.

Melissa:

So I'm most curious about this is the phase where they start to write their own scripts. When you said it, I was like that feels a little daunting, potentially right. That's a big jump from them you know reading the scripts that you've had them reading to writing their own. Now I know they have a lot of time that they're spending in scripts, so they're familiar with it. But what do you do to get them to make that leap to writing their own scripts? How do you support them?

Aaron Grossman:

So let's go back to so. In phase one I said everybody has a shared experience and you're nodding your head and I know my listeners would be too which is just the value of a shared experience, because then we can continue to draw from that shared experience. Continue to draw from that shared experience. So if, quite literally, the first script we ever read together is something we've all done, then when we do our very first script writing, I'll give them a piece of content that we're all going to change into some kind of reader's theater script. So I think the very first thing for that, the very first thing that we ever used as source material, was around energy. That happened to be where we were with science.

Aaron Grossman:

So they took one of our outcomes. I put them in groups of three and each triad wrote a script and they have a template for that. So it just sort of tells them we need to have a setting. What's character one, character two? So there is some pretty firm guardrails in the first script writing. And then within that and I stole this from one of your previous guests, lauren prophet, who's a fourth grade teacher um, I hadn't thought of it initially, but they rotate the pen as well, which becomes a key part of that activity. So if the first character speaking, I hand the pen and they write their part for the second character, and this goes back to two things at once. So we're listening or we're focusing on some pretty soft skills. You know that social awareness or self-awareness Are we engaged in what our other kids or what our classmates are contributing, and then from that we tease out a script.

Melissa:

What was that called?

Aaron Grossman:

Aaron, the where we're rotating the pen rotating the pen?

Lori:

I think it's. Is it rotating the pen or take the pen? I didn't hear.

Aaron Grossman:

Well, probably either one. I tell my kids we have to rotate the pen, but probably take the pen. It's probably a very similar riff.

Melissa:

Pass the pen. We can call it what we want. That has a nice ring.

Lori:

Okay, all right, can you talk a little bit more about that? So we're just real clear on what that is Like. They write something and then they pass it.

Aaron Grossman:

Yep, okay. So if you could picture and we can link to some of these as well Picture a template where, so one of them is what's called a homework outline, so the very I actually have written the first three or four lines. So character one you know says I'm struggling with you know the following assignment I should call the homework outline and then all of them read simultaneously call 1-800, you know, homework outline. And then the first next person who speaks says hello, this is the homework outline. And then the first next person who speaks says hello, this is the homework outline. What question do you have? And then that prompts the next person to say well, what question would you be have about?

Aaron Grossman:

this particular source material and then from there they're off. And then their task is right Mind the text for whatever relevant evidence they need to share with their audience. And then how do we wrap this up and continue to engage whoever's listening to what we've created?

Lori:

So are they writing that about energy, like they could do this homework hotline script about energy.

Aaron Grossman:

They could do it about energy or any topic I mean, really we did one, you know, when we first learned how to add and subtract fractions with unlike denominators. That turned into a script. So how do we turn an algorithm and it's something that we can share with other stakeholders and I know that, again, we can be incredibly creative with this. But for me, again, a point of emphasis is these are always anchored in something that I can feel like I'm doing two things at once with. Always anchored in something that I can feel like I'm doing two things at once with.

Melissa:

Yeah, and I really liked that one that you, like you, you gave them the frame of the. You know the, the, where are like, where are we? We're in this, this homework hotline, you know like. You gave them that. So they're not starting from complete scratch Like I don't know where, how, what do I even do for a script on energy? You know Um. So you, you gave them that jumpstart and a little bit of a structure with the questions and answers. That I would imagine gives them more of a solid place to then just jump into the content and be able to bring that in as they finish that script.

Aaron Grossman:

And I'm glad you note that, and also I just call out the fact that the first templates I ever saw were from Rosalind Flynn, and so she's an author. You know you can find her book and I know that she's got some other content you can find online. But again, attribution, because I just think you know, like many classroom teachers, inspired by other people, and then we just sort of make it our own.

Melissa:

Writing it down. We'll link it in the show notes, all right. So, aaron, is there anything else you wanted to share about phase two? As terms of you know you shared how you get them into writing this script with support, is there anything you do then to change it over the course of phase two so they're a little more independent?

Aaron Grossman:

So let me describe two other things that make phase two a little bit different than phase one. The first is the presentations themselves. So instead of always just presenting in front of their classmates now, either I farm them out to other. Always just presenting in front of their classmates now, either I farm them out to other classrooms where they share some of their content, or we invite other classrooms in to receive some of these scripts. The other part and I hope I'm clear here the students themselves will begin to evaluate their classmates, not at the individual but rather as a group presentation. So picture somebody has just done a presentation on goods and services, so one of our social studies standards. The participants will evaluate smoothness, pace expression, evaluate smoothness, pace expression. And so then it's not just always me who is looking for these things, but they get to pay very close attention to what makes a strong presentation.

Melissa:

And that's back to that same rubric that you went over with them at the very beginning.

Aaron Grossman:

At the very beginning.

Lori:

yes, Aaron, do they ever evaluate the content of the scripts?

Aaron Grossman:

You know at that point, honestly no, because I've probably, if there's something that's a little bit off.

Lori:

You've already addressed it, yeah.

Aaron Grossman:

I've addressed that, where you get to evaluation of the content itself, is then jumping into phase three, where there are some pure editing, so that we're clear on those things that we know are included in a strong reader's data script.

Lori:

Okay, well, let's just go there. Then I feel like phase three. I'm like what else could we do? It feels like we're at the final frontier. So when students are writing their own scripts, what happens after that? Right, I'm hearing you say peer editing. I'm interested to hear what other tricks of the trade you've got.

Aaron Grossman:

Well, and I again, you know it's like you know. So we can all picture, at the beginning of the year there we haven't had as much structure as routines and places that we would like, but by the time we're getting close to spring break, one, you know, our tolerance for our students, tolerance for boredom, you know, wanes quickly, especially, I think, you know, a generation that is so used to endorphin Russians from scrolling, and so it's like how do we continue to promote fluency and keeping as gauging as possible for the kids that we're working with, and so the opportunities include one? They're writing their own scripts. It shouldn't always be me who is the one that's doing the editing. So then we just use a pure editing protocol that I'm sure many of the teachers listening have already in place. Mine is a riff from two local educators a guy named mark medcalf, another woman who's now retired, kitty gillette, where they, you know, sit side by side and there are some pretty firm guardrails.

Aaron Grossman:

Again, on what are we looking for? We can, can't look for everything. So do they have an introduction with those characters setting and rising action or some kind of problem? Does it make sense how we ultimately get to our conclusion? There are some obvious convention pieces that we can look for. But, largely speaking, does it make sense and is this worth sharing with your classmates? And I think I alluded to this earlier, we're also now just grabbing things from other classrooms. It is incredibly charming when my kids take student writing in the primary grades, turn it into a script and then get to present it for the kid. Who is the author they light up. They must love that, Yep, and it builds relationships. So that's another opportunity in that third phase that wasn't afforded in this first couple.

Lori:

Do you ever do a buddy read script where like they might have something that the younger kids can decode, or am I giving you a cool idea now?

Aaron Grossman:

I think you're giving me a cool idea. To be fairly honest with you, I haven't done it that way, but that's great to be fairly honest with you, I haven't done it that way, but that's great.

Lori:

I was thinking a lot about how, when you said, it builds relationships. Often in schools they do like the classroom buddy readers, where the older students read to the younger students. But that would be really cool for the younger kids to be like wow, this is my work. That was changed into a script, so cool. And maybe there's like a couple of words that they could say or repeat over and over again. That's so awesome. I love that. I love the concept. It's very cool.

Aaron Grossman:

And I love you volunteering that, and so if people go to my classroom page, please reach out, because I just think I'm always blown away by what teachers do with research and how they iterate and make it stronger. I just think we don't tap into that wealth of knowledge as well as we should. But I am always just again, like I alluded to the law and profit who just very simply said how come you don't have them rotate the pen or pass the pen?

Melissa:

I was just thinking that you know you've taken a lot of research, like you said Chase Young's research and Tim Ruzinski's research. You've taken a lot of this research but you're still making it yours as a teacher, right, and there's not. The researchers aren't going to say stuff, things like that, like pass the pen or to, you know, create, create the scripts in a certain way. You know they say that this repeated reading is great, that Reader's Theater has some impact for students, but all this is this is why we talk to teachers is so that you know you get all of these really great ideas for how to actually make it real in a classroom and make it work for kids and to build on that a little bit, which is, I think researchers are really well in general.

Aaron Grossman:

Right, I think there are three things we're always attending to, which is why, how and with what. And researchers and academics are fabulous with why and they're really good at directing people with what. Academics are fabulous with why and they're really good at directing people with what. Um, but how is what? Teachers and I think again to to borrow from rosinski and young who talk about that art and science and how you marry those two guys, the how is so much art? Yeah, um, and so you know, you recently had on andrew watson, who talked about retrieval practice and, I think, about the value of these readers. Theater scripts are another way of addressing retrieval practice in a way that doesn't feel really obvious to the kids but clearly is of value to them All right, aaron, we have a few really practical questions for you.

Melissa:

You know teachers need to know the logistical. How do I do this? You've mentioned a few times already, but I just want to like stamp it when you're writing the scripts or when you're giving the scripts to students. Where do you find them or how do you create them?

Aaron Grossman:

So I am using generative AI. I won't call it a specific one, but what I've learned over time is it's really helpful for a couple of reasons. A lot of the reader's data content that I was shared with me, especially as part of large adoptions. There are two problems that I noticed with it. One they're too long, Like how do you get to repeatedly reading and leveraging the research on that when it takes kids 45 minutes just to get through a reader's theater script, through a reader's theater script? So that was one reason to motivate me. And the other part was I wanted things that were always really tailored to things I was currently doing in my classroom.

Aaron Grossman:

So, using AI, I will pick out a piece of content and then I will say I need 400 to 500 words. I need four parts. Every part has to speak the same number of words. I will even pick out key vocabulary words from things that we're studying and then I'm able to embed that vocabulary in the script itself. And one more reference to one of your previous shows but you had Blythe Anderson on who talked about emphasizing a word and how. That's one of these really strong talk moves we can do with vocabulary. So now I will bold or italicize some words within the script and that prompts the kids to say this is the word that I need to emphasize for my audience.

Aaron Grossman:

So what's fresh right now is I wrote a bunch on economics, so here's goods and services We'll talk about that. Or entrepreneur, and you hear the kid really emphasize that word and then the definition that follows, um, and then that word entrepreneur might appear three or four times all, which is reasonably easy to do with ai tools. Um, and there's one other very subtle thing and I want to be clear about this so you know other tips which is obviously we have kids in our classroom are highly impacted. Maybe they come with an SLD of some kind, so either they're working with another professional to do some kind of repeated reading, if you're very fortunate, maybe families are able to afford some additional support. But in instances where they quite literally just can't even access you know something with a Luxile of about 800,. You know something with a Luxile of about 800,. That's when you can use generative AI to say can you make this one part completely decodable using only the following vowel patterns or diphthongs, whatever it is that you might have been studying with that particular student.

Melissa:

Yeah, and a very good tip for teachers who teach lower grade levels right that they could do that same thing to create their scripts from what they've already taught in their phonics lessons.

Aaron Grossman:

Yes, so those are two biggie ones. And then the other one that I just I'm sure people know, which is when I say that sometimes kids get to just sign up for the scripts. Sometimes we know there are certain kids who just cannot sign up for the same script for any number of reasons. So I do want to acknowledge this. I don't have every year kids who just all magically work well together.

Lori:

So we didn't think you were like a unicorn in this world, don't worry, all right. So you kind of alluded to this idea of differentiation, but I want to give you the opportunity to talk a little bit more about it. Like, if we do have, you know, your fourth grade, if we do have a fourth grader who's struggling, who's reading several grade levels behind, what else do you do? I mean, I'm hearing you say you manipulate the words in the script a little bit, but is there anything else? Do you make it shorter? What else happens?

Aaron Grossman:

And that depends, you know, really specifically on the child, and we can get into IEPs. So by the time they're in fourth grade, largely speaking, there are some things in place for that child. So that's a document you can refer back to. So if repeated reading and having additional opportunities where there's work with the script don't work, you can again using generative AI. If I said this, one's 500 words and everybody's speaking the same number of words, perhaps instead you say I need one part that's limited to 18 words, so they get to participate fully, they get to be part of that community. But here the tweak is they just have to read less and so the lift on them is a little bit lower than it might be for some of the other students. But I think you know again, it's nuanced because as best as possible we can, you know, I think we all know we want them engaged with grade level content, but sometimes we have to put. Sometimes that's very challenging.

Lori:

Yeah, I like the idea of that. They're still participating in the activity and also tracking and hearing that fluent reading and I would think we would scaffold up to work on more words as time goes on, so I love thinking about that.

Aaron Grossman:

And let me volunteer one more, which again I'm sure there are people in the audience just going how come you didn't say that first, which is sometimes you just choral read. So all four participants will be reading along together, and so that's another supporter scaffold. Also point of research.

Melissa:

Also very easy.

Aaron Grossman:

Yes, jinx.

Melissa:

Jinx, I'm just wondering if you do any kind of fluency assessments throughout the year and does that play any role in you know your groupings or anything like that? And I'm also just curious if you see improvement in fluency from all this work that they do.

Aaron Grossman:

So I do the. I certainly do a reading curriculum-based measure, and I do it with all of my students. So some are probed more frequently, but for all of my students, at the very least, I'm doing it monthly. So that's one way of tracking how kids are moving. And the other part, again, is using the Rosinski piece. I do keep track of those scores. So we were talking about. You know, if people choose to pull it up, they'll see a matrix with four categories scores of 1, 2, 3, 4. And so that's another measure. Scores of one, two, three, four, and so that's another measure. And so I will share those with, certainly at parent conferences, so that they understand that fluency is more than just moving quickly and accurately across a piece of paper, that there's more to it, and so they have a language to work with their kids if they so choose, if they choose to promote that outcome in their house.

Lori:

Okay. So I'm wondering if you'd like to give any pieces of advice to teachers. Listening, I feel like you've shared so many amazing tidbits but, as you're thinking about closing this podcast out, what's one piece of advice, two pieces of advice you'd give to teachers looking to really strengthen their fluency instruction in their classrooms?

Aaron Grossman:

Well, I'm going to be a cliche right now which is it's that leap of faith which is the first ones are. They don't go particularly well. You know they're awkward because everybody's getting used to that, especially when we're talking about August where, if kids are still kind of risk adverse, you haven't established that culture and so, like so many other things, you got to kind of stick to it and then you'll know your room, you'll know what they need to be successful with this. So I always think you know, do it at least two or three times. So that's the first one, and the other one is again, the real value and utility of short scripts. So Dr Young talks about this, but again, just to keep reinforcing this idea of if we're not getting to repeated reading, we're not going to get to the kind of prosody that we're hoping for. So those performances on Friday can become pretty flat Again if they're just logging through something and they've only had a chance to go through it maybe once or twice before then sharing it whole class.

Lori:

All right. So if we're looking on the Just Two Teachers website, what can we find? Our listeners, I'm sure they want to know.

Aaron Grossman:

Well, there's a lot on the Just Two Teachers website and it's just because I've worn a number of different hats, but there is a Reader's Theater section. So if they go to the website they'll see a frame. There's a reader's theater section. You know I've because I've taught multiple grades and I've been doing this for a while now. I mentioned indoor recess games, but you know I do ones around Aesop fables because we want that background knowledge. So again, I could just keep reading to them.

Aaron Grossman:

But here's another way of building understanding of Aesop fables or famous fairy tales, because we know there are communities in which kids are just unfamiliar with these stories but then there's illusions to them constantly as we get to intermediate grade content and especially middle school literature. There's lots of stuff around science. I do a whole thing on the language standards, I have a bunch of content on math, and so I've done the best, if I can, to really be very broad in what these scripts are addressing. So that would be one thing. And then they're also going to find all kinds of tools around inclusion, around PBIS, but everything that they would find there is absolutely free. My entire first week of instruction is posted there. And then one last piece, which is you asked about the protocol. At the very start of this, there is a short five-minute video of my kids sort of engaged in the protocol and reflecting on it, so if people wanted to see what that looked like from a student's perspective, they could see that.

Melissa:

I was going to say that, if you didn't, I just found that video today.

Lori:

That's amazing, oh my gosh. Well, it sounds like we'll be linking your website in the show notes, among other places. So thank you so much for this amazing work that you do and the contribution that you give to your students and also this literacy learning community every day. Thank you.

Aaron Grossman:

Thank you and sincerely thank you very much for having me on. This was really fabulous. And sincerely thank you very much for having me on. This was really fabulous.

Melissa:

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Lori:

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Melissa:

Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests of the Melissa and Lori Love Literacy Podcast are not necessarily the opinions of Great Minds PBC or its employees.

Lori:

We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to learn with us.