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Scaffolding Challenging Texts for All Readers with Christina Cover

• Episode 231

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Episode 231

Working with students who struggle to make sense of complex texts? You’re not alone! Christina Cover, a high school special educator, interventionist, English teacher, and literacy coordinator, is here to help! 

In this episode, Christina shares real-world, research-based strategies she uses to help her students break down and make sense of challenging texts. From her go-to routine Getting the Gist to building vocabulary and using morphology instruction in context, Christina walks us through what works in her classroom.

You’ll hear:

  • How to support students in summarizing and understanding complex texts
  • Why vocabulary and morphology matter so much for comprehension
  • Ways to make test prep meaningful without sacrificing deeper reading
  • How writing can be a powerful tool for reading comprehension

If you teach in grades 3 and up, this episode is full of tools and inspiration you can take straight back to your classroom.

Resources:


We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.

Grab free resources and episode alerts! Sign up for our email list at literacypodcast.com.

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Melissa:

Every teacher has faced the challenge of supporting students who need more help to read grade-level texts. If you are looking for ways to help your students become stronger, more confident readers while tackling complex material, this episode is for you.

Lori:

Teacher Christina Kover joins us to share practical strategies you can use right away, like summarizing, building vocabulary, metacognitive tools and integrating writing. You'll leave with simple, effective tools to make complex texts more accessible for all learners. Hi teacher friends. I'm Lori and I'm Melissa. We are two educators who want the best for all kids and we know you do too.

Melissa:

We worked together in Baltimore when the district adopted a new literacy curriculum.

Lori:

We realized there was so much more to learn about how to teach reading and writing.

Melissa:

Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.

Lori:

Hi, christina, welcome to the podcast. We're so glad you're here.

Christina Cover:

Hi Christina, Welcome to the podcast. We're so glad you're here. Hi, Melissa and Lori, so so, so glad to be here. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Melissa:

Well, I am personally so very excited to talk to you today, Christina, because you are a teacher in a high school and, dear to my heart, that's where Lori and I actually both start.

Melissa:

We both started teaching in high school, believe it or not. We made our way down to younger grades eventually, but we both started teaching in high school and we know that one of the biggest challenges teaching especially ELA or English in the older grades and really this middle school, this even upper elementary school, all of those grades students end up reading texts that can be really challenging for them, and they need support as a reader, because we know that all of those students have different reasons for why those texts are challenging to them. So you're going to talk to us about some really great strategies that you use with your students, but before we get there, I wanted you to set the stage a little bit, because a lot of our listeners are elementary teachers. So we want to hear from your experience as a high school teacher. Just what kinds of texts are your students reading and how do they, you know if it's a challenging text. How do they respond to that?

Christina Cover:

Absolutely Well. I want to say hello to all the elementary teachers listening and thank you for your work as a secondary teacher. There's so much that I've been reflecting on during the year and you know I'll start by saying at my school. I'm at a high school in New York, a high school in the Bronx public high school, and I quite like the curriculum. You know I'm more of an impressionable younger teacher, I suppose, but I really like the curriculum. I think it has a wide range of texts for students to really understand and dive into, and so some of the texts that we read together this year include the 57 bus, which is more like a literary nonfiction text on the story of two teenagers and how their lives crossed and their paths crossed forever in Oakland, california. Really great book. We also just wrapped up reading Romeo and Juliet.

Melissa:

There's a tough one.

Christina Cover:

That's a tough one. Any Shakespeare is always a tough one. Any Shakespeare is a tough one Still, as an adult, I feel like it's tough still.

Christina Cover:

Yeah, it's challenging for anyone, and so it was interesting to see that play from Shakespeare is included in the curriculum in the workbooks, and so students are asked to read that and then also write which I know we'll get to later, but they have to write about how themes and ideas from Romeo and Juliet are still relevant today, and so that was a huge, huge lift.

Christina Cover:

We read Night by Elie Wiesel, we read a lot of fiction and nonfiction texts that were shorter, some informational texts.

Christina Cover:

We also read some poetry and we also read literary analysis pieces, like examples of literary analysis essays on Romeo and Juliet, and also listened to and read a transcript of a podcast, and so there was a wide range and I think that my students really enjoyed some of the texts that were more relevant to their current day. You know things going on today, but I would say, when it comes to the texts that are more challenging, we definitely get a range of reactions. Some students will try to find ways to power through, but other students will feel really discouraged and have a difficult time understanding the text and then the corresponding activities. So it really is a wide range, and I'm teaching like I've mentioned to you, melissa and Lori, I teach small groups and I also am the ELA teacher right now and I have been since around January, so I co-taught and now I'm taking that lead content role and so I've been seeing a lot and trying my best to work with the students and help them throughout the year with the curriculum.

Lori:

Oh my gosh, this is. I mean, the texts that you mentioned alone are really complex, like just I mean, you know, we already talked about the Shakespeare one, but there are so many other texts that you called out that are complex for so many different reasons, and that's not even taking the reader into consideration, right, just the text alone, and then when you add the reader in, there's so many challenges.

Melissa:

So can Lori can I jump in real quick? Sorry, I just wanted to add so, like night, I feel like, is one of those ones where, like it's tricky, cause I think, if you look at the Lexile level, isn't it like a pretty low Lexile level? You know, so I think people assume, oh, that's an easy book to read. But even just thinking about the topic of it, right, and the heaviness of the Holocaust and everything that understanding you know what he went through and what his family went through. I mean, that is so complex. You know the Lexia level doesn't cover the complexity of that text.

Lori:

Absolutely 100. Okay, so that's a good point. I'm glad you called that out, melissa. So, christina, I know that you have strategies to share to help your students get through these complex texts right, and I'd love to cue you up for one that you told us about in our pre-call, called Getting the Gist, and this is really all about summarizing, right. I'd love to hear how you teach your students to get the gist right and also how it helps them, how you see it in action, helping them as they're reading these really difficult texts.

Christina Cover:

Totally, totally. Yes, I think you know Get the Gist is a strategy that I'm excited to talk about today because it seems like it's something that is really taking hold, at least in New York, among the New York City public schools. And, after doing some research, I think it's a John Cunningham who is one of the lead developers of the strategy, and it stands for generating interactions between schemata and techs, and so I first learned of it because I'm hired as a centrally funded special education intervention teacher at my school and so we get to go to these great monthly trainings. There's a wonderful leader, rebecca Vitale-Dicola. I have to shout her out. She's an amazing leader who does a lot of work with all the centrally funded interventionists throughout New York City public schools, and she introduced it to us because, you know, a lot of us will colloquially say gist, like oh, what's the gist?

Christina Cover:

But this is a really neat strategy that asks the students to read a specific passage from the text, and it can be an informational text, fiction, nonfiction, but we're really looking for a dense text that students need to unpack and then you can scan it for text features and model how to do that with the students, and then the key is asking the students to identify the who or what and the most important information from the text. And so you can do this at least how I've been doing it. I can ask the students to focus on the sentence level, or ask them to focus on the paragraph level, and then they'll read it. I'll ask them to create a chart or there's a worksheet that you can provide and they'll write down that who or what and that most important information. And so, after they do that for a while, they'll be asked to make a gist statement. And this is the fun part that gist statement can be no longer than you can set it 15 or 20 words, or no longer than 8 and 13 words.

Christina Cover:

You know whatever you want it to be and you can use those parameters to really help the students to narrow down. And you know, whatever you want it to be, and you can use those parameters to really help the students to narrow down. And you know, get that high level summary from what they've just read. And so I really appreciate the versatility of the strategy. I think it's very versatile. It's great to model on the board, it's great for independent work, it's great in a notebook. Anyone can create that chart and I really like the strategy too because I think it can be embedded into curriculum very easily. So pre-standing you know curriculum and, for example, we've seen how it can be added to new visions curriculum. There's a lot of new vision science curriculum that's coming down.

Christina Cover:

We're seeing a lot of that really dense syntactically all of that material, and so you can embed those gist boxes throughout and it can really help the students with keeping up with what they're reading. And I think it's powerful because it helps students with that syntax. Particularly if there's a pronoun in a sentence he to the store, he went to school. Who is the he referring to that same character from the previous sentence, we'd be surprised. But if students are having difficulties with syntactic complexity, they might get lost with all those references with pronouns back to earlier in the reading, and so I try to assign sentence level just to some students, paragraph level just to other students. It depends on how pressed for time we are and I see some impact and I really do think that it helps students understand what they're reading a bit better.

Lori:

Yeah, oh my gosh, the pronoun thing is a real thing. That is so confusing for students, right, and especially when there's lots of commas or clauses very confusing or you have to refer back to them in the sentence prior.

Christina Cover:

Totally, totally, and we've seen some impact, I think, with that and I've been able to go into different spaces as a co-teacher and recommend that as a go-to strategy as teachers are trying to find ways to help students with their comprehension skills. So I think it's been really helpful and it's reminiscent in some ways to me reminiscent of the writing revolution, which I know we'll talk about later, which I know we'll talk about later, but this process of revising and making a strong gist statement, counting how many words that you used, that revision process, I think that's also powerful for students as they break it down. See, oh, this paragraph is coming back to that same person again and again and I think that they find that interesting. It might feel redundant at times, but they really understand the passage when they're done.

Melissa:

That's what I was going to say. It's really helpful that you're giving them actual steps to use to get to that just statement, because I think you know sometimes you see and you know no offense to anyone out there but sometimes you do see where it's just like okay and now write a summary or write a just statement. But this is the important part is teaching giving them those like okay, well, what are you looking for to put in that statement? Like, how do you know it's the most important information to put in that. So that's really helpful. The way you broke that down or I guess John Cunningham broke it down I didn't even know it was based on research. So, thank you, yes, you taught me something today.

Lori:

Yeah, I also really like, christina, that focusing on the sentence level or the paragraph level. I bet that that's a great scaffold for students right, who might need it, and not that you're going to go sentence by sentence every single. That'd be tedious, but you as the teacher then can pull and correct me if I'm wrong, if this is like maybe not the way to use it, but I'm just throwing out one way that I would use it right. I'd pull out a really important sentence or a couple of them and use the gist there, like have the student kind of zoom in on those sentences rather than maybe have them feel overwhelmed by a whole paragraph. Do you want to add a bit to?

Christina Cover:

that Certainly you know, and please you know my apologies to Cunningham If I'm not myself. I still have so much to learn, but I think. So. I think, just like you said, lori, that sentence level or paragraph level option can be really powerful and there might be something that you want students to zoom in on a little bit more. That can be a great opportunity for sentence level, paragraph level, if students feel confident or if we don't have as much time in the day, in the class day. So I think it can be pretty flexible and I've been seeing some success.

Melissa:

So that's how I've been putting it into practice in my classroom and is this something that you're doing? It sounded like you said it was taking hold in New York, so I'm imagining this is something you are doing across your school, which would be really valuable, and I'm wondering about other content you are doing across your school, which would be really valuable, and I'm wondering about other content area teachers Are they using it in content areas outside of English.

Christina Cover:

I will say because in addition to being the central you know teachers wearing so many hats in addition to being the centrally funded interventionist, I also am taking the role of like literacy coordinator at my school.

Christina Cover:

So that's just been an excuse for me to chat it up with colleagues about literacy and what they're seeing in their classroom. So I think that in science, in social studies, particularly in science, we've had some conversations and again some of this new curriculum can feel so dense, so many texts, students might feel lost, struggling with what to do and how to break it down. So I do see that this is an easily implementable step that can literally those boxes can be added into the passages from like a PDF. You can go in, make those changes and students seem to be responding to it well. And I'm hoping that more schools can implement strategies like these across multiple content areas because the consistency can kind of relieve that cognitive load for the students so that they see consistency in how they can address any issues and any difficulties they have when they read. So I think that consistency can be really powerful.

Melissa:

All right, let's move on to another one of your strategies, because I know you have many to share, but you talked about the importance of vocabulary, and we know vocabulary is really important to comprehending any text, especially more complex texts and morphology, so I can't wait to hear your thoughts about that. So what do you do with your students to help with it, with vocabulary and morphology? And I'm really curious if you have any examples from those texts that you mentioned, or any examples that you have.

Christina Cover:

Yes, absolutely Well. Like I mentioned, in addition to the full class ELA tier one work that I'm doing right now, I also am a teacher who does small groups, and so some of the programs that I'm sure any listener many of the listeners listening right now might be familiar with include Rewards by Dr Anita Archer, and Phonics for Reading is another popular one that we're seeing right now in New York in the city, and so with Rewards, that's a great program for small groups and there is a focus on affixes, prefixes, suffixes and that morphology work, and I think that Rewards also has a strong vocabulary protocol that I've been trying to implement across Tier 1-2. And so some of the things that I've been trying to do is take some of those tenets of explicit instruction from rewards and try to implement them at the tier one level during vocabulary instruction for everybody. And so I know Dr Archer says that learning is nota spectator sport, and so I try my best to elicit frequent responses when students are learning the vocabulary words.

Christina Cover:

I ask the students to use the word in a sentence and I try to move at a brisk pace and I provide immediate feedback to sound something like this next word is the word. They'll repeat the word. You ask them to repeat it. You'll ask them for the part of speech and then you'll give them a couple of examples and ask for a choral read where everybody reads those examples together of the words in a sentence, and then you might also provide them with a word family. So forgive, forgiveness, you know, adverb adjective, you know whatever it is, that part of speech. You'll go over that with the students and then ask them to turn and talk and use the word in a sentence.

Christina Cover:

And I really think that instead of a vocabulary list, that kind of lives in a notebook only we really are trying to encourage the student to have many instances with the word so that they're more likely to remember it and practice it day to day. And so I'm trying to promote these practices as a literacy coordinator in professional development sessions and while co-teaching with colleagues at my school. And we've also seen some success with word matrices, like word matrix activities and, of course, frayer models are a classic, another classic way to help students to break down vocab words and remember them. And so these are some of the things we're doing, but I still have so much to learn around vocabulary. But we've been seeing some success with those strategies.

Melissa:

So thank you for sharing all that you do with vocabulary. That's a lot. I love that you're just having students pronounce the word. I mean it sounds so simple, but we had a researcher on who talked about how important it is to just have kids say the words over and over and you made me think of. Lynn Stone was one of our guests and she said the best word list is a book and I love that you're making that a reality in your school, in your classrooms, that you know, not just giving those random word lists but the words they're actually seeing and and it helps them understand what they're reading. Love that quote.

Christina Cover:

I might have to take that one and keep it in my back pocket. The best word list is a book, so true.

Lori:

Yeah, that was really powerful. When she said that, I was like, oh, such a good point. Yes, lists can be helpful tools as teachers, but truly the best word list is a book and that embedded instruction. So so cool. Christina, I'm thinking about when students have these strategies. Students are they have you know these strategies? Right, they have the getting the gist. You're using different word learning strategies. But what about when students don't comprehend what they're reading? Right? What if they're using these strategies and they're not understanding? First of all, like, do they know they're not understanding or do they kind of keep railing through, which is something I'm always like oh, stop, stop. So like, what metacognitive strategies do you teach and how do you help students who are struggling in that way?

Christina Cover:

I appreciate that and I think, especially again at the secondary level, at the middle and high school level, it's so difficult for educators to, with so many competing time demands and competing interests, what to do and what we might be able to do to really stop and slow things down or consider new strategies to help students who might still be struggling with their comprehension. And so you know the metacognition work. I feel I have so much still to learn, but I find that the GIST strategy lends itself to metacognition in some ways, as students realize. Oh wow, like you know, I really do need to stop and I need to go in write things down almost their executive functioning. I think it also addresses, with them pacing themselves.

Christina Cover:

But I will say, another strategy that has been coming up on the tier two, tier three side is a strategy called collaborative strategic reading or CSR, and that's been another one that has been very popular because my school has been implementing something called strategic reading periods and a lot of schools in my district are doing this because and any secondary teacher listening to this you know it's so difficult to find this time during the school day to focus on reading, to focus on writing, and so we have a collaborative strategic reading class that is an option for strategic reading periods, and I got to visit another high school in the Bronx that's doing awesome work, and they offer CSR collaborative strategic reading as part of what they call a reading comprehension class, and so students get programmed into that class and I think it's Dr Sharon Vaughn, who's one of the researchers and leaders, who's brought that forward.

Lori:

Confirmed, confirmed, I'm looking at it.

Christina Cover:

Yep, all righty Did my homework there. That's right, dr Sharon Vaughn.

Christina Cover:

Collaborative strategic reading and this is a cool one, because students get a reading and then they have to identify their clunks, which are things that they're having a difficult time understanding, and then they have to turn those clunks into clicks using different strategies that are very explicitly shared with the students. And there are these clunk cards like you can pass out. It almost becomes this like team activity, where they get the reading and they have to find their clunks and find ways to turn their clunks into clicks and then create those statements and work together to address them. So that's something we've been trying to implement at our school in the smaller group setting, and I think that that also, in my opinion, lends itself to metacognition, because students are thinking okay, if I'm having a hard time, what are my strategies, what can I do? Can I use my prefixes and suffixes? Can I read the sentence again and think about what comes before or after? It's really neat to see the different strategies that are explicitly taught through collaborative strategic reading.

Melissa:

Can I just say that I feel like the mindset around that is really great, because I think oftentimes kids get these tough texts right and it's like I think they feel like they are supposed to just get it right and they probably then feel bad if they don't. And I love that. That idea is like hey, we're all going to have a place where we're going to have some clunks, we all are going to have some places where we need to read it again or think about it in a different way or use the gist statement idea to figure out what's going on here. And just that idea of like we're all going to find our places and all help each other to figure them out, I think it's just so helpful for just again, just the mindset of that's what we're here for in school is to help you through these challenging texts.

Christina Cover:

I completely agree and it's so neat to see how the protocol asks students to activate their prior knowledge, which is something I know we'll also talk about later that importance of having prior knowledge that you're bringing into the text and then going from there and I think there's also a possibility for roles, like there can be a scribe and there can be. So it really takes everything from like oh I'm struggling by myself, I don't know what to do. It takes that anxiety away and gives students a chance to work together as a team. So that maturity level has to be there Students who are willing to work collaboratively and be productive and be productive. But you know, when that productivity and the instructions are clear. It really is cool to see students work together and give that strategy a try and, we hope, keep those strategies in mind as they are facing a text on their own and applying that to other situations in school.

Lori:

Yes, okay, so I also want to give credit to, uh, jeanette Klingner.

Lori:

Her name came up as well when I searched for this Um but, thank you, jeanette, to my middle name, you know, ladies of the eighties, um, and I love these roles. I'm kind of looking at them right now. Uh, christina, there's a leader, there's a clunk expert and announcer and encourager, a reporter, a timekeeper. Now, I could kind of see older students being a little eye rolly about some of these, but at the same time I think what they eye roll about like they actually will still do if you can sell it to them in the right way. Right, like I mean an encourager, I could be like you know, here's a pom pom and go for it, you know. Or I just, you know clunk expert, I'm going to give them like a fake little brick or something. Just make it fun. I just feel like this is such a cool strategy, like I want to make sure we plug it. What do you think, christina? Are my ideas totally outrageous?

Christina Cover:

Not at all. It really is a cool strategy and I completely agree, you know, and it's attention. It is attention in the secondary intervention space so many offerings out there right now but we want to find that you know spot where it doesn't feel babyish to the students. But it's also something that is addressing the skills they need. And I agree, Lori, when you sell it and when you're excited, the students are excited too. They might not say it at first, but they are looking for answers, they're looking for strategies, they're looking for things that can help them when they feel like struggles day to day. They're looking for help, and so this is something that can be fun and that collaborative environment is really neat to see in the tier two, tier three settings.

Melissa:

And you also mentioned writing already, and the writing revolution specifically, but writing can sometimes be a challenge for our students too. But I'm wondering how you kind of use writing to help your students actually comprehend these tough texts, instead of it feeling like now we just have two challenges a tough text and you have to write about it.

Christina Cover:

Yes, I joke all the time with the writing revolution and the Hockman method. I'm the most enthusiastic unpaid member of the writing revolution fan club Like I have no, but I just love talking about it because I really think that the writing revolution has served as a phenomenal check for comprehension for my students. And I think you know, since taking on this kind of lead ELA teacher role this past year towards the end of the year, I've really been all in on the writing revolution because I think that it is a bit of a checkpoint. You know, do not go forward. Do you really understand what we read in class?

Christina Cover:

What's so cool about writing activities, sentence level activities following the Hockman method? In my opinion, you can't complete these activities unless you've read the text. You just can't. You know the because, but so's the subordinating conjunctions. I know my students are so tired of hearing the word a positive. The amount of times I've tried to bring that one forward, but I think some of them are really getting it.

Christina Cover:

But I think it's a phenomenal check for comprehension because you're able to use whether it's the 57 bus or Romeo and Juliet or night you can use those texts, create these custom activities and students will have to have read the text in order to complete the activity. And if they haven't, it's been so cool this year to see students going back into their workbooks, back into their books, searching, asking questions oh where was this again, what page was this on? And I think that their comprehension of the text has really increased because they had to use the writing revolution activity knowledge. They've had to use their knowledge in order to complete those writing revolution activities and I think that it's translated to more engaged conversations about the text and more engagement around the readings. You know. So I've been all in and I think that I've seen increased comprehension using the Writing Revolution this year. Do you use it?

Lori:

across contents.

Christina Cover:

Oh, that's the question, lori, that's what you know. We're really hoping to continue to push for and we're seeing that again. You know, thinking of other schools in the district, other schools across the country, from what I'm seeing in my district in the city, we're seeing that when teachers are across the board, going all in, using strategies in a consistent way, we're seeing increased success for the students. And so I've had the opportunity to partner with the Writing Revolution and bring a PD to my school, where teachers got involved, they got to learn more about TWR and so there is some interest in ongoing training in the summer going into next year for my school, which is exciting. It feels like we're making some steps there and even until then I've been able to talk with colleagues and they've told me in the hallway hey, you know, ms Cover, I use this strategy from TWR and I gave it a try, so I can't say that we're at all content level like every content before. Is that consistency which relieves that cognitive load and ensures that students don't feel stressed as much, going from this strategy to this strategy, they see some consistency and that can help with their academic success.

Christina Cover:

So it's certainly no light effort. It's certainly an undertaking at the school-wide level. But having allies in the work is so important and I think that we're seeing some progress and it's exciting to see all the strategies that colleagues are putting forth. We're also leaning into QFT, the question formulation technique at my school right now, which is, I think, something coming out of Harvard University and the Right Question Institute. We've seen some really great student experiences around QFT as well. So you know, I think every teacher comes in with like this is my thing. I want everyone to try to use this thing. So I think it takes a balance of implementation and then also some grace, as that work takes time. But we've been making some good progress and even at this class level a lot of positive progress can be made if you're all in on an evidence-based technique.

Lori:

Oh my gosh, so important, yes, and you took the words out of my mouth that, like, progress takes time and I love that you're just at an entry point of figuring it out together and it seems like you know, I love the idea of having some professional learnings this summer, seeing what sticks, what you can get, you know, moving in the meantime while you wait for school to start again.

Lori:

So, christina, something I'm thinking a lot about as you're speaking is these strategies that you're sharing, right this, getting the gist, which is really summarizing, building vocabulary knowledge, using these metacognitive tools and really integrating writing in everything. How do these strategies differ than, like, test prep strategies or test taking strategies? How are these different? I'd love to hear from you because I feel like I have some ideas in my head and I would actually encourage listeners just to pause and think about that too, because I know it can, as we're all educators. It's like this test taking time of the year. It's really stressful and thinking about test taking strategies and test preparation, which I think has a space, right, a time and a place, as well as these strategies that you're talking about too, like how do they work together? How are they different? I'm sure that's very nuanced.

Christina Cover:

Certainly, certainly, and I have to give another shout out Dr Katie Pace-Miles and all of her amazing work. She's great. And I just wrapped up my advanced certificate in reading science experience through Brooklyn College and it was awesome. And for my review of research topic in the spring, I focused on reading comprehension, which I know I told you, melissa and Lori, on the pre-call that I was so excited to get to dive in and then go to get to talk today. And I agree, lori, it's really I've noticed even in my research where I still have so much to learn.

Christina Cover:

But there's such a tension, I think, particularly at the high school level and at the secondary level, when we think about test prep strategies and test taking strategies versus comprehension strategies. And from what I'm starting to kind of glean, you know, and even in my couple of years, my short experience comparatively as a teacher, I think that I noticed that when there's a focus on comprehension and it's not test taking, the gravity, you know, the center, the core of the focus in the classroom is on the text instead of the test. And I've had some really tense well, not tense, but I think everything's so tense but I've had some conversations with colleagues and folks over the years where teachers feel so much pressure to teach to the test and so it's like I'm sorry, you know, ms Cover literacy interventionist we don't have time to focus on comprehension and digging deep. We've really got to get to this region, we've really got to get to this end of year summative assessment, and so it is such a tension. But I think that it's important to focus on that center and you know, I've been reading and listening to a lot of Natalie Wexler's amazing work and reading the knowledge gap and having those conversations with colleagues in evidence-based comprehension activities, while also acknowledging the need to have those opportunities for test-taking strategy and test-taking review and prep. And you know, I think even in the advanced certificate program with Dr Katie Pace-Miles there was a lecturer on who said even Kaplan and some of these really renowned test-taking companies have strategies embedded that derive from some of those comprehension evidence-based techniques.

Christina Cover:

So I think that too often, because of the ways that high school teachers are stretched so thin, they can feel in competition. They can feel in competition comprehension test prep. They can feel incompetention comprehension test prep. They can feel in conflict.

Christina Cover:

But I think there's a world where we can work towards a synthesis where strong, tier one instruction is happening all year and we're using Get the Gist, we're using CSR, we're using TWR those real world test taking strategies, especially towards the end, to give our students the best possible chance at success in the test and in life beyond high school. So it's something that I'm learning a lot about and I think that that concept of a knowledge gap is something also that we need to be reckoning with, because for so many students, that knowledge that they didn't have access to because of decoding or fluency struggles over the years, we can't expect our secondary educators to be able to address all of that in the span of a year, plus get them ready for their regents or their state exams. So it's a true struggle, it's a tension, but I think there's a place for both in our secondary schools.

Lori:

Yeah, and that's such a good point, christina, and you know I wish that you were in my school as, like you know, it's not like one or the other. Yeah, test taking strategies are helpful to learn, but not in absence of really good tier one instruction, which includes a whole host of things that you mentioned. So I appreciate that. So we know that there's a place for test taking strategies. You just kind of shared that and I was going to ask you about it next. But is there anything else you want to say about that, like what that could look like effectively?

Christina Cover:

For sure you know I again in that research and you know my research paper.

Christina Cover:

It felt like a lot to me, but I know it's a minuscule amount of all the research that's out there on comprehension and knowledge building. I did a deep dive on the work of ED Hirsch and core knowledge, which was a whole nother world that I wasn't familiar with. I mean, we talk about, you know, the reading wars and the science of reading, debates and discussions, but knowledge building is something that I'd really love to learn more about. But we know that when we look to the IES practice guides and we look to best practices for older striving readers, that a majority of older students with comprehension difficulties, like I mentioned before, also have those difficulties with word level reading and fluency, and so you know we should never minimize those skills when we consider how to improve outcomes. And so I think that as we continue to do this work, we'll want to keep on pushing for, as I mentioned, those strong, evidence-based practices. Give those students who need that word level work opportunities to be part of programs like Phonics for Reading or Rewards in small groups and then also collaborate on the tier one level so that all teachers have access to strategies that are in their back pockets that can address comprehension in alignment with the evidence.

Christina Cover:

It's a measure of accountability, you know. It's something that's a bit political too in so many respects, particularly in systemically under-resourced communities like the Bronx and places where we want students Black. Trying to do finding that balance, consider these comprehension strategies embedded throughout the year and then, of course, with a big exam coming up, to try to embed test taking but to try to keep the center of gravity to the text and not as much to the test whenever possible. And I think that focus on the text will hopefully give students strategies that they can apply even after that test is done. But I know that it's easier said than done and it takes system level conversations with administrators, with colleagues, and it takes a lot of trial and error in the classroom with students 100%.

Lori:

I want to just say to Christina, it makes a lot of sense. I love the idea of thinking about the center of gravity and like kind of where it should fall a little bit more toward. Maybe it's not centered, maybe a little off center, or what's in the center versus what's on the outside. But I love that and I think you know it's one of those things that Melissa and I talk about all the time on the podcast. You have to practice things Sometimes. You just have to practice to get better sometimes, and to me it's like you know, I would never put a test in front of a kid that I haven't done a little practice with. At the same time, I'd want to give them lots more practice with the bigger picture things that matter, right Cause that's like long, it's a long game. The test is a short game. The long game is, you know, you see it pay off. So I don't know, melissa, is there anything you want to add to that? Well, I was going to say those will.

Melissa:

I mean, they will also help with the test. You know you have to do all those real things to help them as readers, to help them be successful on the test. But I also want to just get to one last thing with you, christina, because I can't let you leave without talking about Project for Adolescent Literacy, because in all your free time as a you know special education teacher and a literacy coordinator, you have taken on this whole project with other teachers, including Julie Brown, who's been on our podcast, who is amazing, and you got you all are specifically doing just some work and finding out information about adolescent readers and many who may need support, even at the decoding level right, the decoding at the word level. So even you know more than what we've talked about on this podcast today, but we don't have a ton of time, so can you just give us a you know few highlights from what you've learned from that project.

Christina Cover:

Absolutely, and thank you both so much again for your support of teachers all over the country, all over the world who listen in, and with this project for adolescent literacy we're also getting to hear from teachers across the country, across the world, folks who are really interested in bringing the same energy and excitement and focused attention that is being given to elementary work and trying to bring more science of reading, evidence-based instruction to the elementary level. We're also hoping to build capacity so there's momentum on the secondary level too. So it's been a really cool experience. We have our phase one project report out on the Seek Common Ground website so that's available for everyone to check out. And you know we're trying our best to be very open source. We say all the time that the materials that we're gathering and learning about do not necessarily represent or are endorsed by our PAL steering committee, but we do have in the appendix of the report some of the resources and approaches that have been coming up the most among the folks who responded to our survey work across the country, and so certainly Orton-Gillingham, wilson Rewards, lexia, power Up Writing Revolution, which we talked about today.

Christina Cover:

Take Aim at Vocabulary, rhyme Magic, winston Grammar these are the ones that seem to rise to the top among secondary educators who say that they're seeing positive action and positive results in their classrooms action and positive results in their classrooms.

Christina Cover:

So I think it's so cool to have an opportunity to talk directly to teachers, see what they're using, because often the policies are different than what's actually happening in the classrooms, and so we're trying to create a space where teachers can be really honest with what's working for them, what they're trying to create, what they're trying to build, and we're trying to build capacity, and so we're excited to see what other curriculum rises to the surface across the country, and in the next couple weeks we'll be embarking on phase two and building these communities of practice around assessment, around instructional materials. Subscribe to our email list by sending us an email at pal at seekcommongroundorg, and then they can get involved. I check those emails myself and so you can reach out anytime, and this is what I do outside of school. I'm separate from school just to try to help build capacity in this space, and we're looking forward to what's coming up this summer.

Melissa:

I really don't know how you have time to do all that you do, but you are very impressive.

Lori:

I was going to say literally eat dinner. How do you?

Christina Cover:

have time, you're the best you know eating dinner, looking at the survey results and it just. It makes it easy when it's when it's a passion and when it's it's so cool. So it's been a dream side gig for sure. And hearing from other teachers from the Bronx to Colorado to Wyoming, with similar experiences, it's just been so awesome and makes me feel encouraged and uplifted as we try to keep this work going Well.

Lori:

We are linking all of this stuff in our show notes. Christina, like Melissa and I have been crazy linking stuff while you were been talking today, but I want you to repeat that email address one more time for anyone listening. Yes, that is pal.

Christina Cover:

P-A-L at ccommongroundorg and we get those emails and we'll add you to the list.

Lori:

Great, Perfect. Well, I'm going to sign up right after this episode, but this is amazing. Your energy is contagious and thank you for just reminding us of the power of you know, positivity, curiosity and really strategicness, Just so. You're just so smart with how strategic you are. It makes it work smarter, not harder, and that's so necessary, especially with our older readers, whether they're third grade quote older and struggling or sixth grade or 12th grade, because we know that they have less time in our school system than all of the other ones. So thank you for all that you do.

Melissa:

Yeah, and thank you for sharing everything today. It's been amazing.

Christina Cover:

Thank you so much for the opportunity. Thank you both for your leadership. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Melissa:

Thank you both for your leadership. Thank you so much. To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list at literacypodcastcom, join our Facebook group and follow us on Instagram and Twitter.

Lori:

If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share with a teacher friend or leave us a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts.

Melissa:

Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests of the Melissa and Lori Love Literacy Podcast are not necessarily the opinions of Great Minds PBC or its employees.

Lori:

We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to learn with us.