{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.34,"body":"So this is another"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.34,"body":"one of my episodes where I'm"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2.34,"endTime":6.03,"body":"talking with somebody I've never"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2.34,"endTime":6.03,"body":"met face to face and actually"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":6.03,"endTime":10.17,"body":"only got to know through social"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":6.03,"endTime":10.17,"body":"media again. So there is there"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":10.17,"endTime":13.11,"body":"are joys in social media, but"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":10.17,"endTime":13.11,"body":"there are some negatives. But"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":13.11,"endTime":16.44,"body":"this is a joy to connect with"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":13.11,"endTime":16.44,"body":"somebody who's involved in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":16.44,"endTime":20.28,"body":"design education at the Open"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":16.44,"endTime":20.28,"body":"University. So Derek, I'm going"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":20.28,"endTime":22.23,"body":"to hand over to you give"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":20.28,"endTime":22.23,"body":"yourself a bit of an"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":22.23,"endTime":24.69,"body":"introduction about who you are,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":22.23,"endTime":24.69,"body":"where you are, and what you do."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":24.9,"endTime":26.79,"body":"That's quite an"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":24.9,"endTime":26.79,"body":"introduction to that already."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":26.79,"endTime":29.79,"body":"Awesome. Thank you very much."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":26.79,"endTime":29.79,"body":"Yeah. Well, my name is Derrick"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":29.79,"endTime":33.42,"body":"Jones, I'm a senior lecturer in"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":29.79,"endTime":33.42,"body":"sustainable design at the Open"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":33.42,"endTime":37.14,"body":"University in the UK, the Open"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":33.42,"endTime":37.14,"body":"University is kind of still"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":37.14,"endTime":40.41,"body":"slightly unique, that we are"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":37.14,"endTime":40.41,"body":"still entirely a distance"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":40.5,"endTime":43.71,"body":"education institution. 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I'm actually an architect,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":68.37,"endTime":71.43,"body":"I'm still, technically speaking,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":68.37,"endTime":71.43,"body":"a qualified architect, just"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":72.15,"endTime":74.52,"body":"haven't kept up with the latest"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":72.15,"endTime":74.52,"body":"changes in technical standards."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":74.55,"endTime":78.12,"body":"But you know, so I've had 15"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":74.55,"endTime":78.12,"body":"years of experience designing"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":78.15,"endTime":80.49,"body":"lots of different types of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":78.15,"endTime":80.49,"body":"buildings, I've worked across"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":81.48,"endTime":84.66,"body":"lots of different design sectors"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":81.48,"endTime":84.66,"body":"as well acted as a client, not"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":84.66,"endTime":88.41,"body":"just a designer. So I do still"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":84.66,"endTime":88.41,"body":"very strongly come from a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":88.41,"endTime":91.71,"body":"practice background, if that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":88.41,"endTime":91.71,"body":"makes sense of, I suppose"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":91.71,"endTime":96.03,"body":"product to academic practice, as"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":91.71,"endTime":96.03,"body":"well, leading to understand,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":96.6,"endTime":100.68,"body":"like how the whole production"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":96.6,"endTime":100.68,"body":"process works right across the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":100.68,"endTime":103.41,"body":"Open University. And so yeah,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":100.68,"endTime":103.41,"body":"it's an interesting space to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":103.41,"endTime":106.65,"body":"work in. We don't necessarily"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":103.41,"endTime":106.65,"body":"teach disciplinary specific"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":106.65,"endTime":110.97,"body":"design either. We teach design,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":106.65,"endTime":110.97,"body":"as I guess, a kind of form of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":110.97,"endTime":114.24,"body":"knowledge in itself. Or as I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":110.97,"endTime":114.24,"body":"suppose it's what you would call"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":114.24,"endTime":116.85,"body":"design thinking these days, I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":114.24,"endTime":116.85,"body":"suppose it's, you know,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":116.88,"endTime":120.12,"body":"technically speaking, you could"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":116.88,"endTime":120.12,"body":"argues at the Open University,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":120.15,"endTime":122.97,"body":"we are design cognition and the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":120.15,"endTime":122.97,"body":"original formation of design"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":122.97,"endTime":127.41,"body":"thinking kind of started way"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":122.97,"endTime":127.41,"body":"back in the 1970s. I suppose"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":127.41,"endTime":129.75,"body":"that's another point I should"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":127.41,"endTime":129.75,"body":"make is this isn't you? We've"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":129.75,"endTime":133.23,"body":"been doing this for quite a long"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":129.75,"endTime":133.23,"body":"time. 50 years now. Our 50 year"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":133.23,"endTime":136.59,"body":"anniversary of when the first"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":133.23,"endTime":136.59,"body":"design course was written is"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":136.59,"endTime":140.67,"body":"coming up. So yeah, we've been"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":136.59,"endTime":140.67,"body":"doing this for quite a while. So"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":140.67,"endTime":141.0,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":142.5,"endTime":144.03,"body":"There's so many"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":142.5,"endTime":144.03,"body":"questions I want to ask you"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":144.03,"endTime":146.76,"body":"already about how do you do a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":144.03,"endTime":146.76,"body":"design course when you haven't"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":146.76,"endTime":150.54,"body":"got a studio? So I'm sure is the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":146.76,"endTime":150.54,"body":"obvious question to be asking"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":150.54,"endTime":153.96,"body":"you because you're like, I can't"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":150.54,"endTime":153.96,"body":"I can't visualise this then. So"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":153.99,"endTime":156.96,"body":"I know that oh, you is all"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":153.99,"endTime":156.96,"body":"online. I've got a good friend"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":156.96,"endTime":161.16,"body":"who worked in education. Oh,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":156.96,"endTime":161.16,"body":"you. So can you give us a little"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":161.16,"endTime":163.02,"body":"insight into that before we go"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":161.16,"endTime":163.02,"body":"any further?"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":163.65,"endTime":166.8,"body":"Sure. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":163.65,"endTime":166.8,"body":"absolutely. Um, oh, god for the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":166.8,"endTime":171.24,"body":"start with us. Yeah, good. When"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":166.8,"endTime":171.24,"body":"there's so much, you've got to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":171.24,"endTime":173.88,"body":"unpack even asking that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":171.24,"endTime":173.88,"body":"question. It comes from so many"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":173.88,"endTime":177.12,"body":"assumptions. I mean, you could"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":173.88,"endTime":177.12,"body":"ask him question, secondary"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":177.15,"endTime":179.73,"body":"school teachers. And we were"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":177.15,"endTime":179.73,"body":"reminded of this last week, when"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":179.73,"endTime":182.49,"body":"we did a presentation on the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":179.73,"endTime":182.49,"body":"studio project that we're"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":182.49,"endTime":185.46,"body":"working on just knows what"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":182.49,"endTime":185.46,"body":"happens if you're teaching in a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":185.46,"endTime":188.85,"body":"classroom where you don't have a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":185.46,"endTime":188.85,"body":"studio, you don't have a space"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":188.85,"endTime":192.18,"body":"that's continuous for students"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":188.85,"endTime":192.18,"body":"to kind of come back to and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":192.18,"endTime":195.6,"body":"they've got their own desk"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":192.18,"endTime":195.6,"body":"space. So yeah, it's a really"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":195.6,"endTime":198.42,"body":"big and loaded question. I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":195.6,"endTime":198.42,"body":"suppose it goes right back to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":198.84,"endTime":202.26,"body":"the very start of the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":198.84,"endTime":202.26,"body":"university. And also one of the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":202.26,"endTime":204.66,"body":"things I think we're wanting to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":202.26,"endTime":204.66,"body":"touch on today as well. Also on"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":204.66,"endTime":208.2,"body":"the kind of design knowledge"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":204.66,"endTime":208.2,"body":"stuff that goes way back to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":208.2,"endTime":211.92,"body":"Bruce arch after the 1960s and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":208.2,"endTime":211.92,"body":"1970s, the Royal College of Art,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":211.92,"endTime":214.68,"body":"the design as a third way of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":211.92,"endTime":214.68,"body":"knowing"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":216.18,"endTime":218.1,"body":"I'm gonna start"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":216.18,"endTime":218.1,"body":"cheering you I can hear it"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":218.1,"endTime":222.66,"body":"Norman's listening, he's going"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":218.1,"endTime":222.66,"body":"to be cheering. Yeah, okay. Are"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":222.66,"endTime":224.1,"body":"you touching my heart already?"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":224.37,"endTime":225.99,"body":"Oh, that's good."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":224.37,"endTime":225.99,"body":"Well, just for anybody who"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":225.99,"endTime":228.12,"body":"doesn't know about it. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":225.99,"endTime":228.12,"body":"it's a really kind of simple"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":228.12,"endTime":230.31,"body":"concept. But it's never really"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":228.12,"endTime":230.31,"body":"been, I don't think it's really"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":230.31,"endTime":233.43,"body":"been taken seriously. So it's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":230.31,"endTime":233.43,"body":"the idea that you are if you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":233.43,"endTime":237.24,"body":"want to talk about fancy"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":233.43,"endTime":237.24,"body":"knowledge of design knowledge,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":237.45,"endTime":240.99,"body":"is only on any kind of like"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":237.45,"endTime":240.99,"body":"academic knowledge base,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":240.99,"endTime":244.59,"body":"identifying the fact that you've"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":240.99,"endTime":244.59,"body":"got a few like scientific"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":244.59,"endTime":247.35,"body":"knowledge or formalised"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":244.59,"endTime":247.35,"body":"structured forms of logical"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":247.35,"endTime":250.68,"body":"propositional knowledge to use a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":247.35,"endTime":250.68,"body":"fancy theorem. And on the other"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":250.68,"endTime":253.05,"body":"end of the spectrum, you've got"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":250.68,"endTime":253.05,"body":"our testing knowledge, aesthetic"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":253.05,"endTime":255.9,"body":"knowledge, knowledge, that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":253.05,"endTime":255.9,"body":"there's subjective and quality"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":256.11,"endTime":259.65,"body":"that relies on maybe collections"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":256.11,"endTime":259.65,"body":"of experts agreeing on"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":259.65,"endTime":262.77,"body":"something. So between these kind"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":259.65,"endTime":262.77,"body":"of two species, Archer contended"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":262.77,"endTime":265.5,"body":"that you've also got a third"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":262.77,"endTime":265.5,"body":"type of knowledge, a noise that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":265.5,"endTime":269.4,"body":"is constructed by doing by"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":265.5,"endTime":269.4,"body":"knowing things by experiential"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":269.4,"endTime":274.29,"body":"knowing, by creating stuff, and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":269.4,"endTime":274.29,"body":"that's where professionals, this"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":274.29,"endTime":276.93,"body":"is where Donald Shawn comes in"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":274.29,"endTime":276.93,"body":"as well. The professional"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":276.93,"endTime":280.41,"body":"practice becomes a space of a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":276.93,"endTime":280.41,"body":"particular type of knowing. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":280.41,"endTime":282.84,"body":"I think we pay a lot of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":280.41,"endTime":282.84,"body":"attention to both of these other"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":282.84,"endTime":284.91,"body":"two types of knowledge,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":282.84,"endTime":284.91,"body":"particularly in secondary and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":284.91,"endTime":289.35,"body":"primary schools. We don't spend"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":284.91,"endTime":289.35,"body":"as much time on that third type"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":289.35,"endTime":291.75,"body":"of knowledge we do perhaps in"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":289.35,"endTime":291.75,"body":"primary schools, you don't"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":291.75,"endTime":293.49,"body":"really get to play in the sun,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":291.75,"endTime":293.49,"body":"but you get to play with the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":293.49,"endTime":296.82,"body":"plasticine. But at some point,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":293.49,"endTime":296.82,"body":"you're told to put away those"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":296.82,"endTime":300.69,"body":"things. And that making doodling"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":296.82,"endTime":300.69,"body":"drawing next pressing in"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":300.69,"endTime":304.08,"body":"anything other than certain"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":300.69,"endTime":304.08,"body":"types of forms of expression of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":304.08,"endTime":307.5,"body":"knowledge, that's kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":304.08,"endTime":307.5,"body":"suppressed slightly, because"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":307.62,"endTime":310.83,"body":"there's definitely a hierarchy."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":307.62,"endTime":310.83,"body":"With this, there really is"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":310.83,"endTime":314.91,"body":"there's a subject hierarchy. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":310.83,"endTime":314.91,"body":"that can be a bit of a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":314.91,"endTime":317.76,"body":"challenge. So suppose to go back"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":314.91,"endTime":317.76,"body":"to the Open University thing,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":317.76,"endTime":322.8,"body":"that third way of knowing Archer"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":317.76,"endTime":322.8,"body":"had the theory, I feel like,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":322.95,"endTime":325.26,"body":"there was a couple of really"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":322.95,"endTime":325.26,"body":"interesting and lovely reports"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":325.26,"endTime":327.51,"body":"that came out of it. And in all"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":325.26,"endTime":327.51,"body":"the changes that I've made in"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":327.51,"endTime":329.7,"body":"secondary education, we can talk"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":327.51,"endTime":329.7,"body":"about that a bit later. But at"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":329.7,"endTime":332.55,"body":"the Open University, it was"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":329.7,"endTime":332.55,"body":"taken really genuinely"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":332.55,"endTime":335.25,"body":"seriously. And at the same time,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":332.55,"endTime":335.25,"body":"there was a whole bunch of work"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":335.25,"endTime":338.52,"body":"going on in Manchester"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":335.25,"endTime":338.52,"body":"University, Nigel cross, Robin"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":338.52,"endTime":342.33,"body":"Roy came from Manchester, I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":338.52,"endTime":342.33,"body":"think the PhDs there came to the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":342.33,"endTime":345.3,"body":"Open University with design"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":342.33,"endTime":345.3,"body":"methods in mind. And this idea"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":345.3,"endTime":349.47,"body":"of design methods is really"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":345.3,"endTime":349.47,"body":"quite important that you can not"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":349.47,"endTime":352.08,"body":"turn design into a recipe or"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":349.47,"endTime":352.08,"body":"something that's really"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":352.08,"endTime":356.73,"body":"explicit. But there is actually"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":352.08,"endTime":356.73,"body":"more of a way of going about"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":356.73,"endTime":359.61,"body":"something, so that you can"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":356.73,"endTime":359.61,"body":"actually see, there's ways that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":359.61,"endTime":362.67,"body":"we go about knowing something"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":359.61,"endTime":362.67,"body":"and design. And if you follow"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":362.67,"endTime":366.03,"body":"these steps, it might not give"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":362.67,"endTime":366.03,"body":"you the exact answer you want,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":366.06,"endTime":368.58,"body":"but it will help you move"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":366.06,"endTime":368.58,"body":"forward. And as long as you are"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":368.58,"endTime":372.42,"body":"consciously aware of how you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":368.58,"endTime":372.42,"body":"evaluate what's happening, and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":372.42,"endTime":376.17,"body":"these kinds of steps, that's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":372.42,"endTime":376.17,"body":"also part of your knowledge. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":376.2,"endTime":378.96,"body":"you can build these methods up."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":376.2,"endTime":378.96,"body":"And that's, that's kind of like"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":378.96,"endTime":382.59,"body":"one of the, it's one of the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":378.96,"endTime":382.59,"body":"secrets, if you like of a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":382.59,"endTime":385.29,"body":"secret. But it's one of the ways"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":382.59,"endTime":385.29,"body":"that we teach design at a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":385.29,"endTime":388.2,"body":"distance, it's through methods,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":385.29,"endTime":388.2,"body":"if you like or through methods."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":389.099,"endTime":391.319,"body":"Interesting,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":389.099,"endTime":391.319,"body":"interesting. I was having this"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":391.319,"endTime":395.189,"body":"conversation. When a swear some"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":391.319,"endTime":395.189,"body":"people think when the swear in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":395.189,"endTime":399.659,"body":"the in the UK with somebody from"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":395.189,"endTime":399.659,"body":"Ofsted the other week about"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":399.689,"endTime":404.459,"body":"design education knowledge. And"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":399.689,"endTime":404.459,"body":"and I'd kind of come to a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":404.909,"endTime":408.989,"body":"probably quite a late"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":404.909,"endTime":408.989,"body":"realisation that there's a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":408.989,"endTime":413.249,"body":"confusion sometimes in Design"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":408.989,"endTime":413.249,"body":"Technology Education, that we're"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":413.249,"endTime":417.629,"body":"not it's not a pedagogy. It's a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":413.249,"endTime":417.629,"body":"design strategy or design"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":417.629,"endTime":426.749,"body":"method, if that makes sense. So."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":417.629,"endTime":426.749,"body":"So for example, I might use, you"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":426.749,"endTime":430.229,"body":"know, teach children about or"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":426.749,"endTime":430.229,"body":"teachers but a creativity method"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":430.229,"endTime":436.409,"body":"by way of generating ideas. But"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":430.229,"endTime":436.409,"body":"I don't think about how the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":436.409,"endTime":443.219,"body":"children are learning that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":436.409,"endTime":443.219,"body":"method. Yeah. I demonstrate that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":443.219,"endTime":448.289,"body":"method, without then helping the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":443.219,"endTime":448.289,"body":"children realise it's a method"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":448.289,"endTime":452.939,"body":"that they have in their toolbox"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":448.289,"endTime":452.939,"body":"to use. And that's what I mean"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":452.939,"endTime":457.589,"body":"about this confusion sometimes"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":452.939,"endTime":457.589,"body":"between design method design"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":457.589,"endTime":464.249,"body":"strategy, and pedagogy. Yes,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":457.589,"endTime":464.249,"body":"yep. And that's where I think"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":464.249,"endTime":470.279,"body":"sometimes there's that design"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":464.249,"endTime":470.279,"body":"knowledge design thinking kind"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":470.279,"endTime":475.829,"body":"of gets lost in Indian tea,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":470.279,"endTime":475.829,"body":"because we're not making that."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":475.889,"endTime":481.109,"body":"And it's not a clear"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":475.889,"endTime":481.109,"body":"demarcation. But, but there is,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":481.379,"endTime":484.469,"body":"but equally a pedagogy and in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":481.379,"endTime":484.469,"body":"design and technology, which"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":484.469,"endTime":488.429,"body":"Matt McLean talks about his"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":484.469,"endTime":488.429,"body":"demonstration. And so we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":489.149,"endTime":493.199,"body":"demonstrate the method by doing"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":489.149,"endTime":493.199,"body":"it. Whilst we're guessing that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":493.199,"endTime":495.839,"body":"the demonstration is the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":493.199,"endTime":495.839,"body":"pedagogy, and the method is what"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":495.839,"endTime":499.319,"body":"we're demonstrating that the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":495.839,"endTime":499.319,"body":"pupils are kind of going around"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":499.319,"endTime":500.879,"body":"in circles, you know, I'm going"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":499.319,"endTime":500.879,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":500.91,"endTime":502.65,"body":"no, absolutely. I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":500.91,"endTime":502.65,"body":"think that Well, again, it's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":502.65,"endTime":505.68,"body":"it's what we, I guess we kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":502.65,"endTime":505.68,"body":"don't talk about very seriously."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":506.4,"endTime":511.23,"body":"So I suppose it's the opposite"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":506.4,"endTime":511.23,"body":"of knowledge as an object. I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":511.23,"endTime":514.41,"body":"mean, a really trivial example,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":511.23,"endTime":514.41,"body":"is remembering something. So the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":514.41,"endTime":517.74,"body":"fact that Paris is the capital"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":514.41,"endTime":517.74,"body":"of France, that's almost like,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":518.19,"endTime":521.4,"body":"it's like, the gold standard of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":518.19,"endTime":521.4,"body":"knowledge, because very few"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":521.4,"endTime":524.4,"body":"people argue it, some people do."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":521.4,"endTime":524.4,"body":"But let's not go there. Just"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":524.4,"endTime":527.76,"body":"know. That's another story, like"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":524.4,"endTime":527.76,"body":"so you have these kind of like"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":527.82,"endTime":531.36,"body":"easy types of knowledge. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":527.82,"endTime":531.36,"body":"it's really, really, really"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":531.36,"endTime":534.3,"body":"tempting to just fall back and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":531.36,"endTime":534.3,"body":"all of these easy kinds of types"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":534.3,"endTime":538.53,"body":"of knowledge in all subjects do"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":534.3,"endTime":538.53,"body":"it. Even in design you I still"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":538.74,"endTime":541.77,"body":"remember that, you know, there's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":538.74,"endTime":541.77,"body":"150 mil from the ground level to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":541.77,"endTime":544.8,"body":"the first level of the DPC"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":541.77,"endTime":544.8,"body":"simply for reasons I couldn't"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":544.8,"endTime":547.53,"body":"even explain what those reasons"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":544.8,"endTime":547.53,"body":"are. I just remember the fact."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":547.95,"endTime":550.11,"body":"James Webb young, the graphic"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":547.95,"endTime":550.11,"body":"designer, when he wrote his"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":550.11,"endTime":553.02,"body":"little book and technique for"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":550.11,"endTime":553.02,"body":"producing creative ideas,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":553.38,"endTime":556.05,"body":"referred to that type of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":553.38,"endTime":556.05,"body":"knowledge is rapidly ageing"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":556.05,"endTime":560.13,"body":"fact. It's almost worthless. But"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":556.05,"endTime":560.13,"body":"as designers, these are actually"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":560.13,"endTime":562.47,"body":"quite useful, but it's the use"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":560.13,"endTime":562.47,"body":"of which we put them that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":562.47,"endTime":566.94,"body":"matters. And the problem is that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":562.47,"endTime":566.94,"body":"even in other subjects, like"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":566.94,"endTime":570.39,"body":"chemistry or like mathematics,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":566.94,"endTime":570.39,"body":"it's actually this other type of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":570.39,"endTime":572.85,"body":"knowledge that we don't talk"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":570.39,"endTime":572.85,"body":"about is actually more"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":572.85,"endTime":576.15,"body":"important. So whilst it's easy"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":572.85,"endTime":576.15,"body":"to remember, a squared plus b"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":576.48,"endTime":579.69,"body":"squared plus c squared, it's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":576.48,"endTime":579.69,"body":"actually the experiential"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":579.69,"endTime":582.84,"body":"knowledge. The way that you go"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":579.69,"endTime":582.84,"body":"about working out the right"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":582.84,"endTime":586.56,"body":"angled triangle is actually much"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":582.84,"endTime":586.56,"body":"more important than remembering"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":586.8,"endTime":590.04,"body":"the fact of it. And again,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":586.8,"endTime":590.04,"body":"reopen University we've actually"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":590.04,"endTime":593.1,"body":"made lots of moves, believe it"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":590.04,"endTime":593.1,"body":"or not in mathematics, to move"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":593.1,"endTime":596.28,"body":"to these kinds of lessons like"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":593.1,"endTime":596.28,"body":"tacit transfer. This is classic"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":596.28,"endTime":600.6,"body":"Polonius stuff. It's showing"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":596.28,"endTime":600.6,"body":"students what math mutations"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":600.6,"endTime":604.38,"body":"actually do. And that's the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":600.6,"endTime":604.38,"body":"difference of you like between"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":604.44,"endTime":608.49,"body":"knowing that or knowing how or"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":604.44,"endTime":608.49,"body":"knowing off. And again, we don't"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":608.49,"endTime":611.67,"body":"spend enough time talking about"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":608.49,"endTime":611.67,"body":"that second type. And basically,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":611.67,"endTime":615.15,"body":"design is a good 80 90% of that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":611.67,"endTime":615.15,"body":"second type of knowledge,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":615.3,"endTime":618.48,"body":"experiential knowledge,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":615.3,"endTime":618.48,"body":"contingent knowledge. And I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":618.48,"endTime":622.23,"body":"think, teacher training that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":618.48,"endTime":622.23,"body":"focuses on that kind of laptop"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":622.23,"endTime":625.8,"body":"type. So that example that you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":622.23,"endTime":625.8,"body":"gave, you might demonstrate to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":625.8,"endTime":628.86,"body":"students some things if, for"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":625.8,"endTime":628.86,"body":"example, creative idea making,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":630.06,"endTime":632.58,"body":"completely, it's almost"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":630.06,"endTime":632.58,"body":"completely different teacher"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":632.64,"endTime":635.82,"body":"training that's required or"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":632.64,"endTime":635.82,"body":"teacher attitude that's required"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":636.39,"endTime":639.21,"body":"to develop the space within"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":636.39,"endTime":639.21,"body":"which the students learn for"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":639.21,"endTime":642.06,"body":"themselves. And this is where"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":639.21,"endTime":642.06,"body":"it's classic constructivist"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":642.12,"endTime":646.56,"body":"learning. But it's providing"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":642.12,"endTime":646.56,"body":"that opportunity so that your"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":646.56,"endTime":649.68,"body":"demonstration is like that, that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":646.56,"endTime":649.68,"body":"lovely phrase that I can't"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":649.68,"endTime":653.01,"body":"remember who has it that that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":649.68,"endTime":653.01,"body":"like, but not exactly like,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":653.91,"endTime":656.61,"body":"because it's necessary that each"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":653.91,"endTime":656.61,"body":"individual student does have"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":656.61,"endTime":659.79,"body":"their own slightly different"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":656.61,"endTime":659.79,"body":"version of doing that thing. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":659.79,"endTime":662.7,"body":"that that individuality is"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":659.79,"endTime":662.7,"body":"actually the thing that's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":662.7,"endTime":666.57,"body":"celebrated, the line value will"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":662.7,"endTime":666.57,"body":"always come out as a result of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":666.57,"endTime":669.39,"body":"it, I don't think we're good"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":666.57,"endTime":669.39,"body":"enough at expressing the value"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":669.39,"endTime":673.44,"body":"of these different types of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":669.39,"endTime":673.44,"body":"knowledge construction. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":673.44,"endTime":677.49,"body":"partly, that's our fault as both"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":673.44,"endTime":677.49,"body":"design professionals and as"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":677.88,"endTime":679.74,"body":"design educators and design"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":677.88,"endTime":679.74,"body":"school,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":680.67,"endTime":683.13,"body":"because we kind of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":680.67,"endTime":683.13,"body":"we kind of we kind of steer away"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":683.52,"endTime":687.42,"body":"from that type of conversation."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":683.52,"endTime":687.42,"body":"And, you know, again, I'm kind"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":687.42,"endTime":691.47,"body":"of thinking with, if some people"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":687.42,"endTime":691.47,"body":"in government policy or"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":691.47,"endTime":693.84,"body":"listening to this me talking"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":691.47,"endTime":693.84,"body":"about construction isn't"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":694.02,"endTime":698.19,"body":"constant, I always get it wrong,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":694.02,"endTime":698.19,"body":"which one it is, but anyway. And"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":699.27,"endTime":703.35,"body":"around experiential learning,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":699.27,"endTime":703.35,"body":"there's a kind of a shock to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":703.35,"endTime":708.3,"body":"come say, no, no, no, that's not"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":703.35,"endTime":708.3,"body":"that's not learning. And I think"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":708.54,"endTime":712.53,"body":"I can kind of see where they're"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":708.54,"endTime":712.53,"body":"coming from is because sometimes"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":712.53,"endTime":715.59,"body":"it's been completely abused"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":712.53,"endTime":715.59,"body":"that, that there's nothing"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":716.7,"endTime":719.79,"body":"independent, there's no clear"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":716.7,"endTime":719.79,"body":"pedagogy or relationship to the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":719.79,"endTime":724.56,"body":"disciplinary knowledge, okay."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":719.79,"endTime":724.56,"body":"And people can't see me but I'm"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":724.56,"endTime":727.86,"body":"kind of making waves there to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":724.56,"endTime":727.86,"body":"say this isn't about facts, but"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":727.95,"endTime":733.23,"body":"the disciplinary knowledge, to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":727.95,"endTime":733.23,"body":"be able to articulate that in a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":733.23,"endTime":738.18,"body":"conversation or in a talk to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":733.23,"endTime":738.18,"body":"pupils or just to the setting up"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":738.18,"endTime":742.62,"body":"of an activity that's done in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":738.18,"endTime":742.62,"body":"such a way that what they're"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":742.62,"endTime":746.28,"body":"learning and Matt McLean talks"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":742.62,"endTime":746.28,"body":"about knowledge in action. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":746.85,"endTime":752.01,"body":"And you know, that that is"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":746.85,"endTime":752.01,"body":"really clear and articulated. So"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":752.04,"endTime":756.54,"body":"yeah, as a result, we fall back"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":752.04,"endTime":756.54,"body":"on facts. Yes, yeah. I hear all"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":756.54,"endTime":759.84,"body":"the time in Danti, about theory"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":756.54,"endTime":759.84,"body":"lessons, and I think I used to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":759.84,"endTime":763.32,"body":"do theory lessons. What was I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":759.84,"endTime":763.32,"body":"doing that nobody was talking to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":763.32,"endTime":767.13,"body":"me about? Why was it doing them?"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":763.32,"endTime":767.13,"body":"Yeah, yep. Where do they sit?"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":767.13,"endTime":768.03,"body":"What are they for?"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":768.78,"endTime":772.59,"body":"Yep. No, I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":768.78,"endTime":772.59,"body":"completely agree. I think we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":772.59,"endTime":776.01,"body":"undervalue that side of what we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":772.59,"endTime":776.01,"body":"do as designers. I've been"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":776.01,"endTime":778.56,"body":"thinking in a recent talk I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":776.01,"endTime":778.56,"body":"gave, I talked about almost"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":778.56,"endTime":782.55,"body":"certain cognitive processes of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":778.56,"endTime":782.55,"body":"design thinking moves that are"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":782.55,"endTime":786.51,"body":"actually close up to superpowers"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":782.55,"endTime":786.51,"body":"and anything else. And again, I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":786.51,"endTime":789.93,"body":"go back to where we fall down,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":786.51,"endTime":789.93,"body":"if you like, is design"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":789.93,"endTime":794.19,"body":"professionals. And sometimes we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":789.93,"endTime":794.19,"body":"never present to clients, the 99"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":794.19,"endTime":797.55,"body":"failures, we never ever are very"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":794.19,"endTime":797.55,"body":"rarely let people see the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":797.55,"endTime":802.44,"body":"messiness of studio, we always"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":797.55,"endTime":802.44,"body":"present that final world design."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":802.47,"endTime":805.26,"body":"And there's so much focus on"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":802.47,"endTime":805.26,"body":"that you forget just how much"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":805.29,"endTime":808.68,"body":"effort goes into all of that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":805.29,"endTime":808.68,"body":"other stuff. So that's partly"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":808.68,"endTime":810.87,"body":"our own fault that we've"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":808.68,"endTime":810.87,"body":"preserved this mystique, if you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":810.87,"endTime":814.5,"body":"like, the napkin sketch on a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":810.87,"endTime":814.5,"body":"napkin, or the aha moment, and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":814.5,"endTime":818.79,"body":"all of those just absolute, you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":814.5,"endTime":818.79,"body":"know, it doesn't add a whole"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":818.79,"endTime":822.57,"body":"bunch of effort that goes into"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":818.79,"endTime":822.57,"body":"leading up moment, okay. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":822.6,"endTime":824.97,"body":"there's lots of good literature"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":822.6,"endTime":824.97,"body":"that supports that. What we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":824.97,"endTime":827.88,"body":"haven't been good at, I think,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":824.97,"endTime":827.88,"body":"as educators and professionals,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":828.15,"endTime":831.75,"body":"is preserving the specialness of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":828.15,"endTime":831.75,"body":"that, and actually talking about"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":831.75,"endTime":834.87,"body":"it in very serious pedagogical"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":831.75,"endTime":834.87,"body":"terms and give you an example."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":835.14,"endTime":839.07,"body":"So how do you deal with a hyper"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":835.14,"endTime":839.07,"body":"complex problem project? And I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":839.07,"endTime":842.07,"body":"don't just mean complex, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":839.07,"endTime":842.07,"body":"potentially a wicked project?"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":842.07,"endTime":844.92,"body":"How do you deal with something"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":842.07,"endTime":844.92,"body":"that is so difficult that you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":844.92,"endTime":848.4,"body":"just don't even know where to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":844.92,"endTime":848.4,"body":"start? As a designer? I know"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":848.4,"endTime":851.25,"body":"what that feels like, I know"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":848.4,"endTime":851.25,"body":"what staring at that blank bit"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":851.25,"endTime":854.4,"body":"of paper is like, and one of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":851.25,"endTime":854.4,"body":"your learning outcomes, if you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":854.4,"endTime":857.37,"body":"like, if you're teaching any"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":854.4,"endTime":857.37,"body":"kind of design, is to help"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":857.37,"endTime":860.88,"body":"students deal with that moment"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":857.37,"endTime":860.88,"body":"of where do I start? How do I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":860.88,"endTime":864.42,"body":"actually go about this process,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":860.88,"endTime":864.42,"body":"but we don't talk about that as"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":864.42,"endTime":867.54,"body":"much as we do the outcomes or"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":864.42,"endTime":867.54,"body":"the other bits and pieces."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":867.9,"endTime":870.45,"body":"Another example and this is"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":867.9,"endTime":870.45,"body":"where I do believe it does touch"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":870.45,"endTime":873.54,"body":"on almost like cognitive"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":870.45,"endTime":873.54,"body":"superpowers is like, say an"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":873.54,"endTime":877.98,"body":"optimism switch. You know, like,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":873.54,"endTime":877.98,"body":"where you have to very quickly,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":878.25,"endTime":882.66,"body":"really, really become deeply,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":878.25,"endTime":882.66,"body":"deeply creative, within like 30"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":882.66,"endTime":885.87,"body":"or 40 seconds and then snap back"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":882.66,"endTime":885.87,"body":"out of that. So you go back into"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":885.9,"endTime":888.87,"body":"a realistic mode, switching"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":885.9,"endTime":888.87,"body":"between all these kind of like"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":888.9,"endTime":893.52,"body":"cognitive modes of operation."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":888.9,"endTime":893.52,"body":"It's really he is deeply tiring"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":893.55,"endTime":896.37,"body":"be. That's where the effort is."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":893.55,"endTime":896.37,"body":"That's where all the ideas come"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":896.37,"endTime":899.07,"body":"out of, and then you hide all of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":896.37,"endTime":899.07,"body":"that stuff and you only present"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":899.1,"endTime":902.46,"body":"the solution. But that's the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":899.1,"endTime":902.46,"body":"stuff that you need. That's the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":902.46,"endTime":905.34,"body":"stuff that you need to learn if"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":902.46,"endTime":905.34,"body":"you like, as a designer, it's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":905.34,"endTime":908.22,"body":"not the it's actually the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":905.34,"endTime":908.22,"body":"process and the procedures that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":908.22,"endTime":910.68,"body":"you go through, I think if we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":908.22,"endTime":910.68,"body":"can start to build up the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":910.68,"endTime":914.64,"body":"language around about this so"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":910.68,"endTime":914.64,"body":"that we actually take it more"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":914.64,"endTime":917.82,"body":"seriously, as educators as"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":914.64,"endTime":917.82,"body":"teachers, and then we can help"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":917.82,"endTime":920.82,"body":"students take it more seriously,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":917.82,"endTime":920.82,"body":"and then helped to look after"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":920.82,"endTime":924.81,"body":"themselves almost to like, learn"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":920.82,"endTime":924.81,"body":"how to use a bit more seriously."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":925.17,"endTime":927.15,"body":"I think that would definitely"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":925.17,"endTime":927.15,"body":"help everybody."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":927.99,"endTime":930.54,"body":"And I also think"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":927.99,"endTime":930.54,"body":"we able to articulate it better"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":930.54,"endTime":932.64,"body":"to people outside the subject"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":930.54,"endTime":932.64,"body":"precisely. So"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":932.76,"endTime":933.36,"body":"absolutely."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":934.5,"endTime":937.11,"body":"So that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":934.5,"endTime":937.11,"body":"it's understandable where we've"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":937.11,"endTime":939.33,"body":"got to in schools in a way"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":937.11,"endTime":939.33,"body":"because if we've not been having"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":939.33,"endTime":944.82,"body":"these conversations within, and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":939.33,"endTime":944.82,"body":"we've not been able to Mmm, I'm"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":945.03,"endTime":947.82,"body":"continually developing my"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":945.03,"endTime":947.82,"body":"understanding when you said some"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":947.82,"endTime":950.31,"body":"things that I thought, not no"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":947.82,"endTime":950.31,"body":"idea what you're talking about."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":950.31,"endTime":953.4,"body":"But am I No, no, no, no, no,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":950.31,"endTime":953.4,"body":"don't apologise, don't"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":953.4,"endTime":958.68,"body":"apologise. And partly being"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":953.4,"endTime":958.68,"body":"pushed to understand and hear"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":958.68,"endTime":961.14,"body":"about the things that you"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":958.68,"endTime":961.14,"body":"wouldn't hear about is part of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":961.14,"endTime":963.63,"body":"the way you can, I need to go"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":961.14,"endTime":963.63,"body":"for I mean, I've already written"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":963.66,"endTime":966.54,"body":"10 things down a bit of paper"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":963.66,"endTime":966.54,"body":"that I'm gonna have to go back"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":966.54,"endTime":969.81,"body":"and pick up on. And I've now"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":966.54,"endTime":969.81,"body":"completely lost my train of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":969.81,"endTime":970.14,"body":"thought."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":972.24,"endTime":974.22,"body":"That's a lovely"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":972.24,"endTime":974.22,"body":"thing about what we do, isn't it"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":974.22,"endTime":976.56,"body":"both as teachers and as"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":974.22,"endTime":976.56,"body":"designers, and it's what James"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":976.56,"endTime":980.25,"body":"Webb young talks about, as well."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":976.56,"endTime":980.25,"body":"These rapidly ageing facts are"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":980.25,"endTime":984.63,"body":"still useful, like pick up"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":980.25,"endTime":984.63,"body":"concrete, quarterly pick up, you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":984.63,"endTime":987.75,"body":"know, Emily, and porters"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":984.63,"endTime":987.75,"body":"monthly, or whatever it is, all"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":987.75,"endTime":991.47,"body":"designers find inspiration in"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":987.75,"endTime":991.47,"body":"all of these sorts of things, is"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":991.47,"endTime":994.77,"body":"that constant quest, but I think"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":991.47,"endTime":994.77,"body":"there's something deeply deeply"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":995.07,"endTime":998.82,"body":"related between the desire for"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":995.07,"endTime":998.82,"body":"just learning for the sake of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":998.82,"endTime":1001.34,"body":"learning and the desire to be a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":998.82,"endTime":1001.34,"body":"designer, I think these two"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1001.34,"endTime":1004.52,"body":"things are an intimate"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1001.34,"endTime":1004.52,"body":"relationship between those"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1004.67,"endTime":1007.37,"body":"knights across talked about this"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1004.67,"endTime":1007.37,"body":"as well in haven't developed it,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1007.37,"endTime":1010.82,"body":"though, I want to ask him about"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1007.37,"endTime":1010.82,"body":"this, why he never did this. But"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1010.82,"endTime":1014.87,"body":"is that not you? He took archers"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1010.82,"endTime":1014.87,"body":"work, and he really did turn it"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1014.87,"endTime":1019.73,"body":"into foundation. But then he"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1014.87,"endTime":1019.73,"body":"also related it to learning for"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1019.73,"endTime":1023.42,"body":"the sake of learning. And it's a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1019.73,"endTime":1023.42,"body":"very close mechanism to that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1023.42,"endTime":1026.15,"body":"kind of curiosity and that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1023.42,"endTime":1026.15,"body":"iterative process that we go"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1026.15,"endTime":1029.24,"body":"through his design. So I do"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1026.15,"endTime":1029.24,"body":"think there's still quite a deep"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1029.24,"endTime":1032.27,"body":"intimacy. And when I see good"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1029.24,"endTime":1032.27,"body":"teachers, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1032.3,"endTime":1034.46,"body":"indistinguishable from good"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1032.3,"endTime":1034.46,"body":"designers, the way that they"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1034.46,"endTime":1037.22,"body":"iterate that we are constantly"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1034.46,"endTime":1037.22,"body":"observing, we are constantly"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1037.79,"endTime":1040.91,"body":"being iterated on the processes"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1037.79,"endTime":1040.91,"body":"in our thinking. I see. I think"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1040.91,"endTime":1043.07,"body":"there's a real strong"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1040.91,"endTime":1043.07,"body":"relationship between these two."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1043.67,"endTime":1048.53,"body":"I agree. And I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1043.67,"endTime":1048.53,"body":"reviewed a book recently, I co"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1048.53,"endTime":1052.01,"body":"reviewed it with Daniella"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1048.53,"endTime":1052.01,"body":"Schillaci, Roland, and the book"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1052.01,"endTime":1057.41,"body":"was teachers as designers, which"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1052.01,"endTime":1057.41,"body":"was fascinates me some of the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1057.41,"endTime":1059.45,"body":"chapters we looked at. And we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1057.41,"endTime":1059.45,"body":"felt because we were writing it"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1059.45,"endTime":1061.55,"body":"for the design technology,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1059.45,"endTime":1061.55,"body":"education, international"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1061.55,"endTime":1064.25,"body":"journal. And some of the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1061.55,"endTime":1064.25,"body":"chapters we felt they weren't"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1064.28,"endTime":1069.77,"body":"fully relevant to the primary"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1064.28,"endTime":1069.77,"body":"audience. But for Daniella, as a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1069.77,"endTime":1073.1,"body":"teacher, as a secondary school"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1069.77,"endTime":1073.1,"body":"teacher, more of them were"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1073.1,"endTime":1076.61,"body":"relevant because she's a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1073.1,"endTime":1076.61,"body":"teacher. Yes, completely agree."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1077.15,"endTime":1081.47,"body":"And it kind of I may was I was"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1077.15,"endTime":1081.47,"body":"willing to work for Lincoln."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1081.5,"endTime":1083.9,"body":"Well, yeah, just didn't he"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1081.5,"endTime":1083.9,"body":"teachers know this, don't mean"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1083.9,"endTime":1088.07,"body":"because it's part of their"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1083.9,"endTime":1088.07,"body":"culture. But actually, it's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1088.07,"endTime":1092.27,"body":"really interesting to see it"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1088.07,"endTime":1092.27,"body":"being written about in a general"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1092.27,"endTime":1096.62,"body":"education, book taking, taking"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1092.27,"endTime":1096.62,"body":"these ideas of design. So yeah,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1096.62,"endTime":1100.4,"body":"I think I think you, you"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1096.62,"endTime":1100.4,"body":"definitely, you know, talking"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1100.4,"endTime":1105.14,"body":"there about things that are"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1100.4,"endTime":1105.14,"body":"happening, but But again, it's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1105.14,"endTime":1108.56,"body":"when people in the design,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1105.14,"endTime":1108.56,"body":"education, design practice"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1108.56,"endTime":1115.1,"body":"community, then take that stuff"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1108.56,"endTime":1115.1,"body":"they've been doing in design"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1115.16,"endTime":1118.82,"body":"world, and start a bit like how"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1115.16,"endTime":1118.82,"body":"you saying this isn't a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1118.82,"endTime":1122.84,"body":"criticism of Nigel cross, start"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1118.82,"endTime":1122.84,"body":"talking about it in a different"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1122.84,"endTime":1129.53,"body":"space, a more general space,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1122.84,"endTime":1129.53,"body":"that then people outside don't"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1129.53,"endTime":1134.21,"body":"see what is the uniqueness about"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1129.53,"endTime":1134.21,"body":"design education and the way"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1134.39,"endTime":1137.81,"body":"knowledge is formed and created"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1134.39,"endTime":1137.81,"body":"and understood and established"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1137.81,"endTime":1140.93,"body":"and recognised? You know, in the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1137.81,"endTime":1140.93,"body":"same way Design Thinking I did a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1140.93,"endTime":1145.04,"body":"podcast episode with David"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1140.93,"endTime":1145.04,"body":"Spindler. We have quite a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1145.04,"endTime":1147.29,"body":"conversation, I guess, in terms"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1145.04,"endTime":1147.29,"body":"what is design thinking that,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1147.74,"endTime":1152.63,"body":"you know, and it has been in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1147.74,"endTime":1152.63,"body":"many ways hijacked by the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1152.66,"endTime":1158.78,"body":"outside didn t design education"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1152.66,"endTime":1158.78,"body":"community, whilst we don't fully"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1159.8,"endTime":1164.54,"body":"articulate what it is within the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1159.8,"endTime":1164.54,"body":"design community? Yeah, that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1164.54,"endTime":1165.2,"body":"makes sense."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1165.47,"endTime":1168.83,"body":"No, I completely"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1165.47,"endTime":1168.83,"body":"agree. Okay. I really, genuinely"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1168.83,"endTime":1172.28,"body":"do. I think it's only very"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1168.83,"endTime":1172.28,"body":"recently that we've even started"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1172.28,"endTime":1177.14,"body":"to take seriously sometimes our"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1172.28,"endTime":1177.14,"body":"own pedagogies I mean, don't get"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1177.14,"endTime":1179.39,"body":"me wrong. There's been loads of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1177.14,"endTime":1179.39,"body":"very, very good practitioners"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1179.39,"endTime":1182.3,"body":"who have been doing that for a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1179.39,"endTime":1182.3,"body":"long time. But because there's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1182.51,"endTime":1186.65,"body":"the so few of them, in some"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1182.51,"endTime":1186.65,"body":"ways, that voice is really"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1186.65,"endTime":1190.64,"body":"really, really hard. So like"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1186.65,"endTime":1190.64,"body":"some key stable Susan or Alison"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1190.64,"endTime":1194.06,"body":"Shrieve. All these people who"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1190.64,"endTime":1194.06,"body":"are doing fantastic work are"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1194.06,"endTime":1199.04,"body":"still so few of them. But that's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1194.06,"endTime":1199.04,"body":"starting to slowly slowly change"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1199.04,"endTime":1201.35,"body":"and we're starting to take her"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1199.04,"endTime":1201.35,"body":"Wouldn't pedagogy seriously"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1201.74,"endTime":1203.93,"body":"worth the work that we've been"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1201.74,"endTime":1203.93,"body":"doing at the Open University"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1203.93,"endTime":1207.41,"body":"recently to understand our"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1203.93,"endTime":1207.41,"body":"virtual studio as absolutely"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1207.41,"endTime":1211.52,"body":"hard to change mainstream"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1207.41,"endTime":1211.52,"body":"educational theories so that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1211.52,"endTime":1214.97,"body":"they fit better with what we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1211.52,"endTime":1214.97,"body":"understand as design educators."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1215.93,"endTime":1219.53,"body":"And it shows to me, the lack of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1215.93,"endTime":1219.53,"body":"attention has been paid to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1219.53,"endTime":1223.04,"body":"design pedagogy in some ways"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1219.53,"endTime":1223.04,"body":"that we've had to rely on these"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1223.07,"endTime":1227.15,"body":"other experts coming in to tell"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1223.07,"endTime":1227.15,"body":"us how it is that our pedagogy"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1227.15,"endTime":1230.6,"body":"is work that we don't need to,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1227.15,"endTime":1230.6,"body":"because we are designers, design"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1230.6,"endTime":1233.72,"body":"educators, we know it works,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1230.6,"endTime":1233.72,"body":"designers come out the other"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1233.72,"endTime":1236.09,"body":"end, people are a little bit"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1233.72,"endTime":1236.09,"body":"more creative after they've been"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1236.09,"endTime":1238.25,"body":"to one of our sessions,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1236.09,"endTime":1238.25,"body":"therefore, we've never really"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1238.25,"endTime":1241.64,"body":"had to kind of question it."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1238.25,"endTime":1241.64,"body":"Until suddenly, they start to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1241.64,"endTime":1245.21,"body":"say, you don't really need that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1241.64,"endTime":1245.21,"body":"studio space, do you? Or you can"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1245.21,"endTime":1248.9,"body":"just do this in your curriculum"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1245.21,"endTime":1248.9,"body":"instead of this. And it's when"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1249.11,"endTime":1251.48,"body":"you're challenged, if you like"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1249.11,"endTime":1251.48,"body":"in these things to actually see"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1251.48,"endTime":1254.48,"body":"well, what is it about what you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1251.48,"endTime":1254.48,"body":"do with it so special, that's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1254.48,"endTime":1257.36,"body":"where we have that kind of lack"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1254.48,"endTime":1257.36,"body":"of language. So I'd really like"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1257.36,"endTime":1260.09,"body":"to see the work of all those"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1257.36,"endTime":1260.09,"body":"foundational writers, academics"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1260.09,"endTime":1262.7,"body":"and thinkers really get taken a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1260.09,"endTime":1262.7,"body":"lot more seriously, we're"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1262.7,"endTime":1266.27,"body":"starting to see that work being"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1262.7,"endTime":1266.27,"body":"built upon. And as I say, some"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1266.27,"endTime":1268.49,"body":"of the stuff that we do at"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1266.27,"endTime":1268.49,"body":"European university, it has"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1268.49,"endTime":1271.76,"body":"built on that work and put some"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1268.49,"endTime":1271.76,"body":"really quite hard and rigorous,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1272.27,"endTime":1274.82,"body":"sort of almost not just"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1272.27,"endTime":1274.82,"body":"theoretical, but also"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1274.94,"endTime":1279.17,"body":"experimental and pragmatic"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1274.94,"endTime":1279.17,"body":"results to that our studios are"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1279.17,"endTime":1284.75,"body":"huge, we will have ports of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1279.17,"endTime":1284.75,"body":"between 800, to over 1000"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1284.75,"endTime":1288.32,"body":"students in a single studio."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1284.75,"endTime":1288.32,"body":"That's a lot of students. So"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1288.32,"endTime":1291.89,"body":"again, we can see a different"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1288.32,"endTime":1291.89,"body":"level and scale of say, social"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1291.89,"endTime":1295.91,"body":"comparison, social verification,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1291.89,"endTime":1295.91,"body":"we have to almost redefine it in"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1295.91,"endTime":1298.82,"body":"design terms to understand what"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1295.91,"endTime":1298.82,"body":"students are actually thinking"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1298.82,"endTime":1301.55,"body":"in doing. So we have to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1298.82,"endTime":1301.55,"body":"understand our subject and our"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1301.55,"endTime":1304.07,"body":"own terms. And I think there's a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1301.55,"endTime":1304.07,"body":"growing confidence in being able"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1304.07,"endTime":1308.0,"body":"to do that. And I would really"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1304.07,"endTime":1308.0,"body":"like somebody, I don't know how"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1308.0,"endTime":1310.88,"body":"we go about what the next steps"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1308.0,"endTime":1310.88,"body":"might be. But I'd really like to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1311.36,"endTime":1315.41,"body":"expand that confidence is not"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1311.36,"endTime":1315.41,"body":"just in higher education, or"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1315.41,"endTime":1318.02,"body":"further or secondary, or even"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1315.41,"endTime":1318.02,"body":"primary education, but that we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1318.05,"endTime":1322.28,"body":"do it as a community that takes"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1318.05,"endTime":1322.28,"body":"the whole practice seriously as"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1322.28,"endTime":1326.78,"body":"a form of pedagogy. Because"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1322.28,"endTime":1326.78,"body":"that's just really, really"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1326.78,"endTime":1332.75,"body":"awesome really quickly as if you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1326.78,"endTime":1332.75,"body":"like studio based education is"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1332.75,"endTime":1336.35,"body":"such a simple thing. It's been"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1332.75,"endTime":1336.35,"body":"around for so long, that notion"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1336.35,"endTime":1339.65,"body":"of an expert sitting down with a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1336.35,"endTime":1339.65,"body":"novice to demonstrate something"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1340.1,"endTime":1342.98,"body":"that's almost as old as"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1340.1,"endTime":1342.98,"body":"humanity. In some ways. It's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1342.98,"endTime":1346.58,"body":"almost like this is actually a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1342.98,"endTime":1346.58,"body":"foundational pedagogy from which"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1346.61,"endTime":1350.27,"body":"classrooms have sprung only"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1346.61,"endTime":1350.27,"body":"relatively recently. So you can"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1350.27,"endTime":1352.25,"body":"look at it the other way, if you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1350.27,"endTime":1352.25,"body":"want to."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1354.47,"endTime":1356.09,"body":"Know the reason I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1354.47,"endTime":1356.09,"body":"was going to interrupt you was"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1356.09,"endTime":1359.3,"body":"to say you're using the word"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1356.09,"endTime":1359.3,"body":"studio. And some people"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1359.3,"endTime":1361.91,"body":"listening might not be clear"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1359.3,"endTime":1361.91,"body":"about what you mean about this,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1361.91,"endTime":1364.13,"body":"because you said on the one"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1361.91,"endTime":1364.13,"body":"hand, we don't have physical"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1364.13,"endTime":1368.21,"body":"spaces. And then you're talking"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1364.13,"endTime":1368.21,"body":"about 800 to 1000 students in a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1368.21,"endTime":1372.14,"body":"studio. And I need some help"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1368.21,"endTime":1372.14,"body":"visualising that, and what does"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1372.14,"endTime":1374.45,"body":"that mean, in your practice?"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1374.96,"endTime":1377.18,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1374.96,"endTime":1377.18,"body":"So yeah, my apologies for that."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1377.18,"endTime":1380.3,"body":"Yeah, we've been working on our"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1377.18,"endTime":1380.3,"body":"studio project for a couple of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1380.3,"endTime":1383.33,"body":"years. I started a while back,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1380.3,"endTime":1383.33,"body":"it actually started when I was"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1383.33,"endTime":1387.86,"body":"doing my own PhD. I've only just"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1383.33,"endTime":1387.86,"body":"recently finished my PhD,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1387.86,"endTime":1390.14,"body":"believe it or not, I thought"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1387.86,"endTime":1390.14,"body":"it'd be quite an easy thing I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1390.14,"endTime":1394.67,"body":"started teaching at the Open"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1390.14,"endTime":1394.67,"body":"University. Firstly, wondering"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1394.67,"endTime":1398.0,"body":"who the heck can you actually"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1394.67,"endTime":1398.0,"body":"teach at a distance? Like, as"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1398.0,"endTime":1402.14,"body":"your question earlier, just"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1398.0,"endTime":1402.14,"body":"really intrigued by it, one of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1402.14,"endTime":1405.47,"body":"the things that we do do is we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1402.14,"endTime":1405.47,"body":"have these online studio spaces"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1405.47,"endTime":1409.79,"body":"spaces where students can show"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1405.47,"endTime":1409.79,"body":"their work, they can actually"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1409.91,"endTime":1413.57,"body":"see what's happening with other"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1409.91,"endTime":1413.57,"body":"students work. There's actually"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1413.57,"endTime":1416.24,"body":"lots of little different"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1413.57,"endTime":1416.24,"body":"mechanisms, particularly social"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1416.24,"endTime":1419.33,"body":"mechanisms that are at work in"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1416.24,"endTime":1419.33,"body":"our studios, and because of the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1419.33,"endTime":1422.36,"body":"size of them. So I've always"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1419.33,"endTime":1422.36,"body":"referred to them as studios."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1422.57,"endTime":1425.75,"body":"I've always understood them as a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1422.57,"endTime":1425.75,"body":"studio, because I can see such"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1425.75,"endTime":1428.78,"body":"synergy between a physical"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1425.75,"endTime":1428.78,"body":"studio and where you would also"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1428.78,"endTime":1433.01,"body":"engage in social comparison,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1428.78,"endTime":1433.01,"body":"social verification, and a whole"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1433.01,"endTime":1437.06,"body":"bunch of other little things. So"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1433.01,"endTime":1437.06,"body":"I see an immediate link between"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1437.06,"endTime":1440.69,"body":"the two, I thought I was gonna"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1437.06,"endTime":1440.69,"body":"do a PhD on competing virtual"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1440.69,"endTime":1444.2,"body":"studios to physical studios, I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1440.69,"endTime":1444.2,"body":"presumed to be able to just pick"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1444.2,"endTime":1446.78,"body":"up the book over the library,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1444.2,"endTime":1446.78,"body":"the Bitcoin studio, or the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1446.78,"endTime":1450.02,"body":"Bitcoin design. Now, it just"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1446.78,"endTime":1450.02,"body":"doesn't exist. There's nothing"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1450.02,"endTime":1453.17,"body":"nobody's ever really sat down"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1450.02,"endTime":1453.17,"body":"and define studio when you pick"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1453.17,"endTime":1456.86,"body":"it might be quite a challenge to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1453.17,"endTime":1456.86,"body":"actually define studio, but then"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1456.86,"endTime":1457.16,"body":"it turns"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1457.16,"endTime":1459.08,"body":"out, I'm hoping"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1457.16,"endTime":1459.08,"body":"I'm hoping my laughing isn't"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1459.08,"endTime":1461.18,"body":"coming through too loudly and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1459.08,"endTime":1461.18,"body":"I'm not laughing at you. I'm"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1461.18,"endTime":1464.3,"body":"laughing with you. Because I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1461.18,"endTime":1464.3,"body":"started my PhD thinking I was"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1464.3,"endTime":1467.03,"body":"doing one thing and ended up"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1464.3,"endTime":1467.03,"body":"doing something different. You"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1467.03,"endTime":1469.61,"body":"know, I decided it was this huge"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1467.03,"endTime":1469.61,"body":"thing. And I ended up just like"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1469.61,"endTime":1472.4,"body":"doing the tiny fraction of what"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1469.61,"endTime":1472.4,"body":"I thought I was gonna do."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1473.84,"endTime":1476.54,"body":"Yeah, what was what"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1473.84,"endTime":1476.54,"body":"was slightly this mean was the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1476.54,"endTime":1479.27,"body":"fact that there's there's not"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1476.54,"endTime":1479.27,"body":"really a collection or a really"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1479.27,"endTime":1482.48,"body":"good collection of understanding"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1479.27,"endTime":1482.48,"body":"of what the studio might be"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1482.51,"endTime":1486.53,"body":"across multiple modes. So you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1482.51,"endTime":1486.53,"body":"get really good understanding of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1486.53,"endTime":1490.73,"body":"what an architecture studio is"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1486.53,"endTime":1490.73,"body":"in the UK, or what an interior"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1490.73,"endTime":1494.0,"body":"design studio is in this"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1490.73,"endTime":1494.0,"body":"particular professional context."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1494.54,"endTime":1497.27,"body":"But nobody's ever really pulled"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1494.54,"endTime":1497.27,"body":"them all together with the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1497.27,"endTime":1499.37,"body":"exception of some of the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1497.27,"endTime":1499.37,"body":"scholars I mentioned earlier. So"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1499.37,"endTime":1502.58,"body":"for example, Orange Leaves work"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1499.37,"endTime":1502.58,"body":"on the stickiness of curriculum"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1502.79,"endTime":1506.87,"body":"is very close. So it's that idea"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1502.79,"endTime":1506.87,"body":"that a studio has a bit of a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1506.87,"endTime":1509.9,"body":"culture that kind of propagates"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1506.87,"endTime":1509.9,"body":"itself. But nobody's actually"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1509.9,"endTime":1512.99,"body":"boiled it down to well, could we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1509.9,"endTime":1512.99,"body":"be a bit more pragmatic about"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1512.99,"endTime":1517.61,"body":"this? Could we see that? Can we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1512.99,"endTime":1517.61,"body":"collect the properties, if you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1517.61,"endTime":1519.74,"body":"like, of studio, and that's what"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1517.61,"endTime":1519.74,"body":"we're doing with this studio"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1519.74,"endTime":1522.35,"body":"project is no, we're looking at"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1519.74,"endTime":1522.35,"body":"all of the scholarship in studio"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1522.35,"endTime":1526.31,"body":"and trying to just put it all"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1522.35,"endTime":1526.31,"body":"into a bag. Boys gyms can, I saw"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1526.31,"endTime":1529.1,"body":"would say, one of my colleagues"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1526.31,"endTime":1529.1,"body":"on the project, it's a string"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1529.1,"endTime":1532.88,"body":"bag, it's got massive holes in"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1529.1,"endTime":1532.88,"body":"it, Studio is a flexible thing,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1533.09,"endTime":1536.3,"body":"it's got a bit of a recognisable"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1533.09,"endTime":1536.3,"body":"set of core features, we don't"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1536.3,"endTime":1539.84,"body":"know what they are, yet, they"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1536.3,"endTime":1539.84,"body":"might not even exist. So there"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1539.84,"endTime":1542.57,"body":"is this kind of weird"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1539.84,"endTime":1542.57,"body":"commonality, but difference. So"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1542.57,"endTime":1545.78,"body":"that's why, you know, for me,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1542.57,"endTime":1545.78,"body":"flexing between an online studio"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1545.81,"endTime":1550.64,"body":"in our design curriculum is very"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1545.81,"endTime":1550.64,"body":"like are very likely to see the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1550.64,"endTime":1553.85,"body":"architectural studio that I was"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1550.64,"endTime":1553.85,"body":"brought up in. But I can also"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1553.85,"endTime":1559.04,"body":"see synergies to see a secondary"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1553.85,"endTime":1559.04,"body":"school studio, that might just"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1559.04,"endTime":1561.71,"body":"be sort of doing your quotes"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1559.04,"endTime":1561.71,"body":"from content, the focus is audio"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1561.71,"endTime":1565.58,"body":"only, isn't it. Where there"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1561.71,"endTime":1565.58,"body":"might be a classroom setting"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1565.58,"endTime":1567.98,"body":"where you don't have a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1565.58,"endTime":1567.98,"body":"persistent space, maybe we are"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1567.98,"endTime":1571.13,"body":"students, the persistence for"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1567.98,"endTime":1571.13,"body":"students is a project or a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1571.13,"endTime":1576.2,"body":"teacher or a theme, for example,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1571.13,"endTime":1576.2,"body":"Studio can be a lot of different"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1576.2,"endTime":1579.44,"body":"things, that can be an idea as"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1576.2,"endTime":1579.44,"body":"much as a concept. Again, I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1579.44,"endTime":1582.65,"body":"don't want to turn it into"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1579.44,"endTime":1582.65,"body":"something that's solely with me,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1582.65,"endTime":1584.45,"body":"that's what we're trying to do"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1582.65,"endTime":1584.45,"body":"with this. We're trying to bring"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1584.45,"endTime":1587.93,"body":"it all together to at least help"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1584.45,"endTime":1587.93,"body":"different studio teachers and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1587.93,"endTime":1591.14,"body":"practitioners, at least pull"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1587.93,"endTime":1591.14,"body":"down the bits that they think"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1591.23,"endTime":1595.4,"body":"maybe relate to the studio and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1591.23,"endTime":1595.4,"body":"say, That's interesting, or this"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1595.4,"endTime":1599.24,"body":"is what my practice is, this is"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1595.4,"endTime":1599.24,"body":"what my practice is. So yeah,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1599.27,"endTime":1601.37,"body":"that's what we're kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1599.27,"endTime":1601.37,"body":"working on. Just now. So I do"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1601.37,"endTime":1604.58,"body":"see a lot of synergies and my"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1601.37,"endTime":1604.58,"body":"apologies if I don't make those"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1604.58,"endTime":1604.97,"body":"clear."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1605.48,"endTime":1607.97,"body":"No, it's okay."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1605.48,"endTime":1607.97,"body":"It's okay. It's just, it was"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1607.97,"endTime":1611.75,"body":"just kind of like this word"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1607.97,"endTime":1611.75,"body":"studio. Yeah. And I presume, I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1611.75,"endTime":1614.6,"body":"think really, we don't talk"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1611.75,"endTime":1614.6,"body":"about or don't use that word too"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1614.6,"endTime":1616.64,"body":"much in Designer technology,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1614.6,"endTime":1616.64,"body":"education, I can hear some"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1616.97,"endTime":1619.4,"body":"colleagues that I know again, I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1616.97,"endTime":1619.4,"body":"use it, I use it, and I'm sure"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1619.4,"endTime":1623.99,"body":"that there are people, but how"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1619.4,"endTime":1623.99,"body":"they define it, how they see it."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1624.05,"endTime":1630.17,"body":"Yes. Is it just a label for a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1624.05,"endTime":1630.17,"body":"label sake? Or is it an idea in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1630.17,"endTime":1634.79,"body":"a space? That's that's about"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1630.17,"endTime":1634.79,"body":"where knowledge is shaped,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1634.79,"endTime":1639.5,"body":"created, established? Formed"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1634.79,"endTime":1639.5,"body":"questions, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1639.86,"endTime":1642.86,"body":"I'm gonna hard I'm"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1639.86,"endTime":1642.86,"body":"gonna hedge my bets on this one."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1642.86,"endTime":1645.77,"body":"I don't know yet. I think it"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1642.86,"endTime":1645.77,"body":"probably as both of the above. I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1645.77,"endTime":1648.68,"body":"think sometimes people do just"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1645.77,"endTime":1648.68,"body":"label it for the sake of putting"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1648.68,"endTime":1651.08,"body":"a label on it. I think you're"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1648.68,"endTime":1651.08,"body":"absolutely right. I think that's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1651.08,"endTime":1655.49,"body":"partly because we haven't"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1651.08,"endTime":1655.49,"body":"necessarily had any kind of,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1655.88,"endTime":1658.7,"body":"we've got foundational work that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1655.88,"endTime":1658.7,"body":"theorises studio sort of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1658.7,"endTime":1662.6,"body":"example, Schulman Taylor's work"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1658.7,"endTime":1662.6,"body":"going like signature pedagogies."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1662.96,"endTime":1667.19,"body":"And that applies the idea of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1662.96,"endTime":1667.19,"body":"studio to any professional space"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1667.19,"endTime":1670.25,"body":"within which, you know, doing"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1667.19,"endTime":1670.25,"body":"something or practising"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1670.25,"endTime":1672.41,"body":"something, that's where the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1670.25,"endTime":1672.41,"body":"learning takes place. That's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1672.41,"endTime":1675.86,"body":"where the is like the simulated"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1672.41,"endTime":1675.86,"body":"space. And they give properties"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1675.86,"endTime":1679.43,"body":"such as, you know, no front, it"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1675.86,"endTime":1679.43,"body":"doesn't have a classroom, it"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1679.43,"endTime":1682.4,"body":"doesn't have a one to many"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1679.43,"endTime":1682.4,"body":"distributed learning mechanism"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1682.4,"endTime":1686.15,"body":"to it. But actually just pulling"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1682.4,"endTime":1686.15,"body":"that together and saying, This"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1686.15,"endTime":1689.45,"body":"is what it means in pragmatic"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1686.15,"endTime":1689.45,"body":"terms. And even a studio,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1689.45,"endTime":1692.06,"body":"sometimes it does have"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1689.45,"endTime":1692.06,"body":"demonstration spaces, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1692.06,"endTime":1694.49,"body":"it does have a one to many"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1692.06,"endTime":1694.49,"body":"components, but then it breaks"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1694.49,"endTime":1697.25,"body":"away and it bleeds off into"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1694.49,"endTime":1697.25,"body":"clusters. And again, as soon as"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1697.25,"endTime":1700.94,"body":"you start talking about it in"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1697.25,"endTime":1700.94,"body":"terms of like connections and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1700.94,"endTime":1704.36,"body":"clusters, one to many, many to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1700.94,"endTime":1704.36,"body":"many, you immediately recognise"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1704.36,"endTime":1707.0,"body":"this, but this is just a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1704.36,"endTime":1707.0,"body":"secondary, good secondary"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1707.0,"endTime":1710.18,"body":"school. That's what you would"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1707.0,"endTime":1710.18,"body":"do. And again, that's just what"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1710.18,"endTime":1713.93,"body":"a good facilitator a good"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1710.18,"endTime":1713.93,"body":"educator would do. So by that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1713.93,"endTime":1717.65,"body":"definition, studio is much about"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1713.93,"endTime":1717.65,"body":"the kind of curriculum and the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1717.65,"endTime":1720.8,"body":"teachers in that space. And what"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1717.65,"endTime":1720.8,"body":"that space allows you to do"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1720.8,"endTime":1723.23,"body":"doesn't allow you to do what you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1720.8,"endTime":1723.23,"body":"can do with the furniture, what"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1723.23,"endTime":1726.98,"body":"you can't do with the furniture,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1723.23,"endTime":1726.98,"body":"all of those things. So you need"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1726.98,"endTime":1730.85,"body":"to keep I guess, quite an open"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1726.98,"endTime":1730.85,"body":"mind about what studio is in"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1730.85,"endTime":1734.39,"body":"terms of the artefacts is it"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1730.85,"endTime":1734.39,"body":"things as ideas as concepts as"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1734.39,"endTime":1737.78,"body":"it stuff? Is it curriculum as it"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1734.39,"endTime":1737.78,"body":"aims? Is? All of that kind of?"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1739.52,"endTime":1742.91,"body":"Yeah, cool."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1739.52,"endTime":1742.91,"body":"Blimey. headspin No, sorry. It's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1742.91,"endTime":1746.78,"body":"alright. Because me and Matt,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1742.91,"endTime":1746.78,"body":"were asked by the DfE before"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1746.78,"endTime":1751.82,"body":"Christmas, and it was it was"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1746.78,"endTime":1751.82,"body":"last summer if we would put"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1751.82,"endTime":1761.27,"body":"together have the high level"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1751.82,"endTime":1761.27,"body":"minimal space in terms of that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1761.3,"endTime":1767.93,"body":"there wasn't it wasn't like a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1761.3,"endTime":1767.93,"body":"traditional workshop. And so we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1767.93,"endTime":1771.8,"body":"kind of had a day just sort of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1767.93,"endTime":1771.8,"body":"playing around with ideas. And"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1771.8,"endTime":1774.59,"body":"then unfortunately with the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1771.8,"endTime":1774.59,"body":"Spending Review and such it"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1774.59,"endTime":1777.5,"body":"didn't it didn't get taken"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1774.59,"endTime":1777.5,"body":"anywhere but it got us thinking"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1777.98,"endTime":1780.14,"body":"and I suppose you know, we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1777.98,"endTime":1780.14,"body":"weren't playing around with that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1780.14,"endTime":1783.95,"body":"sounds playing around with but"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1780.14,"endTime":1783.95,"body":"we were exploring high higher"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1783.95,"endTime":1786.74,"body":"tables with stools and the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1783.95,"endTime":1786.74,"body":"tables were on wheels so we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1786.74,"endTime":1791.3,"body":"could move them around. The all"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1786.74,"endTime":1791.3,"body":"of the caps needed to be in the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1791.3,"endTime":1793.67,"body":"room. We didn't really want to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1791.3,"endTime":1793.67,"body":"be having stuff. We might have a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1793.67,"endTime":1798.02,"body":"small store room but we would"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1793.67,"endTime":1798.02,"body":"have handling collections which"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1798.02,"endTime":1802.31,"body":"is like what Kay talks about at"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1798.02,"endTime":1802.31,"body":"Goldsmiths. And Alice heard is"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1802.31,"endTime":1806.93,"body":"just a blog post for us on a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1802.31,"endTime":1806.93,"body":"blog about this about handling"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1806.93,"endTime":1811.85,"body":"collections. And but we also"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1806.93,"endTime":1811.85,"body":"adopted some of the scaleup ID"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1811.91,"endTime":1815.09,"body":"so if you can get scaleups,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1811.91,"endTime":1815.09,"body":"knotting Trent of Tana taken"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1815.63,"endTime":1818.57,"body":"quite a long way. And that was"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1815.63,"endTime":1818.57,"body":"about people being in round"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1818.57,"endTime":1821.75,"body":"tables and be able to work on"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1818.57,"endTime":1821.75,"body":"stuff together. And so we would,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1821.99,"endTime":1825.02,"body":"we were talking a lot about"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1821.99,"endTime":1825.02,"body":"group work and teamwork, which"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1825.02,"endTime":1827.18,"body":"is always a challenge when it"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1825.02,"endTime":1827.18,"body":"comes to assessment. But there"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1827.18,"endTime":1831.53,"body":"are ways pedagogically you can"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1827.18,"endTime":1831.53,"body":"set up that space to do that."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1831.74,"endTime":1835.82,"body":"But we ended up with a huge wall"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1831.74,"endTime":1835.82,"body":"take up the scale up idea. That"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1835.82,"endTime":1839.78,"body":"was a big whiteboard. Okay, yep."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1835.82,"endTime":1839.78,"body":"So that we had a projector in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1839.78,"endTime":1841.7,"body":"the ceiling. You're not You're"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1839.78,"endTime":1841.7,"body":"not writing these ideas and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1841.7,"endTime":1849.26,"body":"pinch them either. But things"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1841.7,"endTime":1849.26,"body":"like so Sarah Davis and I had"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1849.26,"endTime":1852.2,"body":"come up with a project about"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1849.26,"endTime":1852.2,"body":"biodiversity for year sevens."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1852.89,"endTime":1856.04,"body":"The setting would be that the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1852.89,"endTime":1856.04,"body":"children in groups will come up"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1856.04,"endTime":1861.56,"body":"with ideas and manufacture a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1856.04,"endTime":1861.56,"body":"product to make a garden more"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1861.56,"endTime":1865.61,"body":"biodiverse. Okay, but the items"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1861.56,"endTime":1865.61,"body":"would be sold in the garden"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1865.61,"endTime":1870.08,"body":"centre. And so I was to Matt and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1865.61,"endTime":1870.08,"body":"say, well, we can project parts"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1870.08,"endTime":1874.22,"body":"of a garden centre, onto that,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1870.08,"endTime":1874.22,"body":"and we could kind of walk around"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1874.22,"endTime":1878.6,"body":"it, and the children could kind"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1874.22,"endTime":1878.6,"body":"of walk around it and experience"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1878.6,"endTime":1881.33,"body":"it and kind of roleplay you"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1878.6,"endTime":1881.33,"body":"know, some loose and be ideal"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1881.33,"endTime":1886.88,"body":"ideas. And do sort of that, and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1881.33,"endTime":1886.88,"body":"then and draw things on this"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1886.88,"endTime":1891.11,"body":"whiteboard. Yep. You know, and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1886.88,"endTime":1891.11,"body":"then you can kind of see, I've"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1891.11,"endTime":1893.54,"body":"written some stuff about design"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1891.11,"endTime":1893.54,"body":"fiction, you know, you could"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1893.54,"endTime":1897.95,"body":"kind of do storytelling with all"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1893.54,"endTime":1897.95,"body":"of that. Yes. Is that a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1897.95,"endTime":1902.54,"body":"pedagogy? Design? Fiction? No,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1897.95,"endTime":1902.54,"body":"actually, it can be used in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1902.54,"endTime":1905.96,"body":"classrooms, but actually, it's a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1902.54,"endTime":1905.96,"body":"design method, my using that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1905.96,"endTime":1910.82,"body":"language correctly. But yeah, so"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1905.96,"endTime":1910.82,"body":"yeah, the idea of studio and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1910.82,"endTime":1915.71,"body":"space, and therefore it does"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1910.82,"endTime":1915.71,"body":"start to inform the curriculum"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1915.71,"endTime":1916.28,"body":"aims."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1917.18,"endTime":1919.31,"body":"Again, yeah, you're"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1917.18,"endTime":1919.31,"body":"absolutely right. But what it"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1919.31,"endTime":1922.4,"body":"also depends on then as a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1919.31,"endTime":1922.4,"body":"certain set of key conditions."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1922.4,"endTime":1926.21,"body":"So that's a lovely example just"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1922.4,"endTime":1926.21,"body":"given. So yeah."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1928.4,"endTime":1930.29,"body":"I just feel like"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1928.4,"endTime":1930.29,"body":"I'm getting to tutoring now. God"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1930.29,"endTime":1930.59,"body":"tell me."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1933.05,"endTime":1937.58,"body":"I went into I went,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1933.05,"endTime":1937.58,"body":"thinking"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1942.68,"endTime":1944.39,"body":"okay, now tell me"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1942.68,"endTime":1944.39,"body":"what I need to do to remove it."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1944.54,"endTime":1945.77,"body":"What I've not thought about."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1946.97,"endTime":1948.77,"body":"I think it's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1946.97,"endTime":1948.77,"body":"actually what you have thought"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1948.77,"endTime":1951.26,"body":"about what you've already"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1948.77,"endTime":1951.26,"body":"included, but maybe you haven't"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1951.89,"endTime":1955.97,"body":"explicitly declared it, if that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1951.89,"endTime":1955.97,"body":"makes sense. So that's the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1955.97,"endTime":1958.34,"body":"interesting thing to me about"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1955.97,"endTime":1958.34,"body":"this is that we do. And it's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1958.34,"endTime":1962.81,"body":"like the the distance design"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1958.34,"endTime":1962.81,"body":"education blog, like a couple of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1962.81,"endTime":1965.42,"body":"years back, when we were asked"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1962.81,"endTime":1965.42,"body":"to help you open people were"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1965.42,"endTime":1968.6,"body":"moving to online and distance"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1965.42,"endTime":1968.6,"body":"education species, you would"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1968.6,"endTime":1971.24,"body":"have thought that just asking"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1968.6,"endTime":1971.24,"body":"the Open University experts and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1971.24,"endTime":1973.61,"body":"distance learning we would have"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1971.24,"endTime":1973.61,"body":"been able to say, yeah, you just"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1973.61,"endTime":1976.22,"body":"do this, this, this and this."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1973.61,"endTime":1976.22,"body":"But as soon as people asked us,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1976.88,"endTime":1979.76,"body":"we realised just how little we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1976.88,"endTime":1979.76,"body":"knew about what it was that we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1979.76,"endTime":1982.64,"body":"do, because so much was"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1979.76,"endTime":1982.64,"body":"implicit. So I started writing"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1982.64,"endTime":1985.07,"body":"it out thinking you just do"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1982.64,"endTime":1985.07,"body":"this. And then people would come"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1985.07,"endTime":1987.47,"body":"back saying, What do you mean,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1985.07,"endTime":1987.47,"body":"what does that even mean?"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1987.8,"endTime":1990.35,"body":"Because there's 20 assumptions"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1987.8,"endTime":1990.35,"body":"behind what you've just said,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1990.35,"endTime":1994.37,"body":"Yeah. In something like"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1990.35,"endTime":1994.37,"body":"Flipboard, for example. So"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1994.43,"endTime":1996.83,"body":"abstract not and obviously,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1994.43,"endTime":1996.83,"body":"abstracting for the sake of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1996.83,"endTime":1999.71,"body":"abstracting, but that's one of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1996.83,"endTime":1999.71,"body":"the reasons why we're hoping"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1999.71,"endTime":2002.77,"body":"that the studio properties"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":1999.71,"endTime":2002.77,"body":"project, I'm not trying to sell"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2002.77,"endTime":2006.55,"body":"a project at all. It's simply a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2002.77,"endTime":2006.55,"body":"piece of work for the community"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2006.61,"endTime":2009.01,"body":"and the design education"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2006.61,"endTime":2009.01,"body":"community. And we are interested"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2009.01,"endTime":2013.21,"body":"in hearing anybody's ideas that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2009.01,"endTime":2013.21,"body":"can fit into this is trying to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2013.21,"endTime":2017.68,"body":"identify those things that we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2013.21,"endTime":2017.68,"body":"also take for granted that we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2017.68,"endTime":2020.47,"body":"assume that are invisible as"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2017.68,"endTime":2020.47,"body":"much as the things that are"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2020.47,"endTime":2023.32,"body":"visible. So the white quartz is"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2020.47,"endTime":2023.32,"body":"the visible thing. What's the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2024.04,"endTime":2026.29,"body":"ordinance behind that? It's"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2024.04,"endTime":2026.29,"body":"almost like what's the property?"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2027.34,"endTime":2032.17,"body":"Before immediately springs to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2027.34,"endTime":2032.17,"body":"mind is lovely recipes that we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2032.17,"endTime":2035.53,"body":"did for Britain to recipe books,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2032.17,"endTime":2035.53,"body":"believe it or not, when was on"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2035.53,"endTime":2037.96,"body":"recipes for a remarkable"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2035.53,"endTime":2037.96,"body":"research, and that's about"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2037.96,"endTime":2041.05,"body":"species that you can actually"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2037.96,"endTime":2041.05,"body":"create as an architect or a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2041.05,"endTime":2043.99,"body":"designer or as a worker. And one"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2041.05,"endTime":2043.99,"body":"of the ones that did with"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2043.99,"endTime":2047.47,"body":"Metaverse, Borthwick loans, or"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2043.99,"endTime":2047.47,"body":"who worked for Soma architects"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2047.47,"endTime":2049.99,"body":"in New York. One was about"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2047.47,"endTime":2049.99,"body":"permission, space and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2049.99,"endTime":2052.87,"body":"opportunity space. And what"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2049.99,"endTime":2052.87,"body":"you're describing there is this"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2052.87,"endTime":2055.99,"body":"lovely idea of permission space,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2052.87,"endTime":2055.99,"body":"it's a space that doesn't just"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2056.26,"endTime":2059.29,"body":"say, this is the way your"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2056.26,"endTime":2059.29,"body":"behave, it actually gives you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2059.29,"endTime":2062.44,"body":"certain cues or certain"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2059.29,"endTime":2062.44,"body":"invitations to act in slightly"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2062.44,"endTime":2065.62,"body":"different ways. And that notion"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2062.44,"endTime":2065.62,"body":"of opportunity, space is just as"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2065.62,"endTime":2069.46,"body":"important, because without those"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2065.62,"endTime":2069.46,"body":"affordances without those, like"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2069.46,"endTime":2073.15,"body":"frictionless ways of going from"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2069.46,"endTime":2073.15,"body":"thinking to actually doing,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2074.05,"endTime":2077.08,"body":"which you can do quite readily"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2074.05,"endTime":2077.08,"body":"with pencil and paper, but doing"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2077.08,"endTime":2079.93,"body":"that in a digital space is"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2077.08,"endTime":2079.93,"body":"actually slightly harder. So"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2079.93,"endTime":2082.0,"body":"there's a whole bunch of what I"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2079.93,"endTime":2082.0,"body":"would call almost like"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2082.0,"endTime":2085.99,"body":"affordances in the space or in"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2082.0,"endTime":2085.99,"body":"the studio here. There's a whole"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2085.99,"endTime":2089.35,"body":"bunch of conditions, having the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2085.99,"endTime":2089.35,"body":"right people in there having a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2089.35,"endTime":2092.32,"body":"curriculum that supports it,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2089.35,"endTime":2092.32,"body":"having the right training and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2092.32,"endTime":2095.95,"body":"the right attitudes and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2092.32,"endTime":2095.95,"body":"disposition, you know, your cell"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2095.95,"endTime":2099.25,"body":"phones and how hard it is to do"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2095.95,"endTime":2099.25,"body":"a studio afternoon if you're in"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2099.25,"endTime":2102.52,"body":"a bad mood Just as a simple,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2099.25,"endTime":2102.52,"body":"trivial example, but you know"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2102.52,"endTime":2105.7,"body":"what it's like, sometimes come"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2102.52,"endTime":2105.7,"body":"down to that I've seen quite a"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2105.7,"endTime":2110.53,"body":"few creative careers ruined by"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2105.7,"endTime":2110.53,"body":"just a bad mood."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2111.4,"endTime":2114.28,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2111.4,"endTime":2114.28,"body":"And timetabling, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2114.28,"endTime":2118.93,"body":"talked about in my work. You"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2114.28,"endTime":2118.93,"body":"know, I look at how people value"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2118.93,"endTime":2125.71,"body":"the subject. And as part of that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2118.93,"endTime":2125.71,"body":"I wanted to involve people who"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2125.71,"endTime":2126.55,"body":"just timetable."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2126.7,"endTime":2130.84,"body":"Yeah, completely"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2126.7,"endTime":2130.84,"body":"agree. What is yeah, one of the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2130.84,"endTime":2135.4,"body":"big findings we have from our"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2130.84,"endTime":2135.4,"body":"work on studio distance studio"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2135.76,"endTime":2139.6,"body":"was just how important silly"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2135.76,"endTime":2139.6,"body":"things like. In fact, I'm going"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2139.6,"endTime":2141.79,"body":"to take that back immediately."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2139.6,"endTime":2141.79,"body":"It wasn't a silly thing, how"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2141.79,"endTime":2145.09,"body":"foundational and important"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2141.79,"endTime":2145.09,"body":"things like curriculum cues"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2145.12,"endTime":2148.36,"body":"were. And one of those cues was"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2145.12,"endTime":2148.36,"body":"how much time do you have to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2148.36,"endTime":2150.91,"body":"spend in these little, and"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2148.36,"endTime":2150.91,"body":"again, we are very careful about"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2150.94,"endTime":2154.3,"body":"what we call chunking, the Open"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2150.94,"endTime":2154.3,"body":"University to little chunks of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2154.3,"endTime":2158.26,"body":"learning like a design method,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2154.3,"endTime":2158.26,"body":"or an activity that sits inside"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2158.26,"endTime":2161.68,"body":"a method and giving the right"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2158.26,"endTime":2161.68,"body":"amount of time to each of these."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2161.86,"endTime":2164.86,"body":"And knowing that some students"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2161.86,"endTime":2164.86,"body":"will take 15 times as much or,"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2165.13,"endTime":2168.55,"body":"you know, a quarter as much"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2165.13,"endTime":2168.55,"body":"time. And allowing your learning"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2168.55,"endTime":2171.46,"body":"design to flex during the boat"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2168.55,"endTime":2171.46,"body":"that these things are not just"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2171.49,"endTime":2175.09,"body":"nice to haves are things that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2171.49,"endTime":2175.09,"body":"control it. They're actually"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2175.12,"endTime":2178.6,"body":"things that students use to"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2175.12,"endTime":2178.6,"body":"negotiate their understanding of"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2178.6,"endTime":2182.38,"body":"the subject. So timetabling is"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2178.6,"endTime":2182.38,"body":"one of those things because it"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2182.38,"endTime":2185.92,"body":"gives them an idea of or five"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2182.38,"endTime":2185.92,"body":"does it take me five hours to do"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2185.92,"endTime":2188.47,"body":"something that the timetable"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2185.92,"endTime":2188.47,"body":"suggests it should just be five"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2188.47,"endTime":2192.16,"body":"minutes. The next question is"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2188.47,"endTime":2192.16,"body":"what is wrong with me. And you"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2192.16,"endTime":2195.1,"body":"can see where it goes from"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2192.16,"endTime":2195.1,"body":"there. And again, in a studio"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2195.13,"endTime":2198.16,"body":"and approximate studio. If I was"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2195.13,"endTime":2198.16,"body":"a tutor there, in higher"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2198.16,"endTime":2201.61,"body":"education, I've got the luxury"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2198.16,"endTime":2201.61,"body":"of seeing the confusion that the"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2201.61,"endTime":2205.27,"body":"hearts almost on that students"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2201.61,"endTime":2205.27,"body":"face and saying, I can correct"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2205.27,"endTime":2208.18,"body":"that situation. Because in that"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2205.27,"endTime":2208.18,"body":"moment, if you're lucky to be"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2208.18,"endTime":2211.15,"body":"there at that right time, if"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2208.18,"endTime":2211.15,"body":"you're at a distance, or if"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2211.15,"endTime":2214.39,"body":"you're in a busy classroom"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2211.15,"endTime":2214.39,"body":"setting, you know, sometimes we"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2214.39,"endTime":2218.35,"body":"don't have the luxury in those"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2214.39,"endTime":2218.35,"body":"spaces that our higher education"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2218.35,"endTime":2221.47,"body":"counterparts might have. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2218.35,"endTime":2221.47,"body":"that can be quite a challenge."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2221.83,"endTime":2222.22,"body":"Barrier."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2223.06,"endTime":2226.51,"body":"Yeah, but yeah,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2223.06,"endTime":2226.51,"body":"time similar things timetabling"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2226.51,"endTime":2231.52,"body":"location of the space lights. If"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2226.51,"endTime":2231.52,"body":"you say what did I teach last"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2231.52,"endTime":2236.26,"body":"lesson, to here? What baggage am"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2231.52,"endTime":2236.26,"body":"I am I carrying? You know, what"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2236.26,"endTime":2240.19,"body":"are they carrying? Yes, they"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2236.26,"endTime":2240.19,"body":"come from subjects and not that."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2240.7,"endTime":2243.79,"body":"So yeah, cool. There's a whole"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2240.7,"endTime":2243.79,"body":"load of things to kind of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2243.79,"endTime":2245.77,"body":"explore, I don't think we've"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2243.79,"endTime":2245.77,"body":"even kind of touched half the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2245.77,"endTime":2248.98,"body":"list that we've written. So I'm"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2245.77,"endTime":2248.98,"body":"just conscious of time, you"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2248.98,"endTime":2252.1,"body":"know, and people listening and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2248.98,"endTime":2252.1,"body":"it really might be their head is"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2252.1,"endTime":2256.72,"body":"exploding. And you've given me a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2252.1,"endTime":2256.72,"body":"whole list of things. And to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2256.75,"endTime":2259.27,"body":"follow up and to kind of put in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2256.75,"endTime":2259.27,"body":"the show notes. I think people"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2259.27,"endTime":2262.09,"body":"really like links to and any"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2259.27,"endTime":2262.09,"body":"stuff about the studio stuff, I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2262.09,"endTime":2264.76,"body":"think people would really enjoy."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2262.09,"endTime":2264.76,"body":"So I'm going to bring it to a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2264.76,"endTime":2267.25,"body":"close, I'm going to say but I am"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2264.76,"endTime":2267.25,"body":"going to get you back because we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2267.25,"endTime":2270.55,"body":"are going to continue this"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2267.25,"endTime":2270.55,"body":"conversation. And I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2270.55,"endTime":2274.51,"body":"say I'm going to put out there."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2270.55,"endTime":2274.51,"body":"And so if people want to send me"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2274.72,"endTime":2277.99,"body":"questions, or leave me a message"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2274.72,"endTime":2277.99,"body":"on SpeakPipe. And I'll put a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2278.08,"endTime":2280.87,"body":"link to that in the show notes"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2278.08,"endTime":2280.87,"body":"as well. So SpeakPipe is it an"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2280.87,"endTime":2285.37,"body":"audio way of leaving messages of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2280.87,"endTime":2285.37,"body":"question of questions that they"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2285.37,"endTime":2288.88,"body":"want to ask you direct or to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2285.37,"endTime":2288.88,"body":"talk about? Then we can kind of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2288.88,"endTime":2290.92,"body":"come back and pick some of those"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2288.88,"endTime":2290.92,"body":"those things up? Because there"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2290.92,"endTime":2294.37,"body":"was a whole load of things there"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2290.92,"endTime":2294.37,"body":"that I was thinking I want to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2294.37,"endTime":2296.86,"body":"know more about that. And I'm"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2294.37,"endTime":2296.86,"body":"sure other people listening will"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2296.86,"endTime":2299.53,"body":"want to know more and, and we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2296.86,"endTime":2299.53,"body":"could have another conversation?"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2301.03,"endTime":2305.23,"body":"Yeah, definitely. Yeah, you've"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2301.03,"endTime":2305.23,"body":"kind of made my brain hurt. So"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2305.23,"endTime":2307.0,"body":"what would you say that is"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2305.23,"endTime":2307.0,"body":"that's deep cognition."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2308.86,"endTime":2310.96,"body":"Or it's maybe just"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2308.86,"endTime":2310.96,"body":"complete confusion. It could"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2310.96,"endTime":2313.0,"body":"just be dissonance. It could be"},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2310.96,"endTime":2313.0,"body":"just pure COVID."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2314.47,"endTime":2316.84,"body":"Just like, this is"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2314.47,"endTime":2316.84,"body":"so out of my comfort zone. How"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2316.84,"endTime":2320.02,"body":"am I going to justify it? Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2316.84,"endTime":2320.02,"body":"Not quite. No, no, it's not."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2320.02,"endTime":2322.33,"body":"It's not you've kind of got my"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2320.02,"endTime":2322.33,"body":"head spinning. And I'm now"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2322.33,"endTime":2325.21,"body":"thinking, emailed Eddie Norman"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2322.33,"endTime":2325.21,"body":"this morning and said, We don't"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2325.21,"endTime":2327.4,"body":"have lunch for a while. Should"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2325.21,"endTime":2327.4,"body":"we get a date in the diary? And"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2327.4,"endTime":2331.0,"body":"I'm thinking, Yeah, I need"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2327.4,"endTime":2331.0,"body":"another meeting with with with"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2331.03,"endTime":2333.1,"body":"Eddie because he'll he'll"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2331.03,"endTime":2333.1,"body":"explain some of these things to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2333.1,"endTime":2338.08,"body":"me. And we can talk about them"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2333.1,"endTime":2338.08,"body":"in a different way. So now, it's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2338.08,"endTime":2339.94,"body":"been great, Derek, thanks ever"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2338.08,"endTime":2339.94,"body":"so much."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2340.0,"endTime":2341.38,"body":"No problem at all."},{"speaker":"Derek Jones","startTime":2340.0,"endTime":2341.38,"body":"Thank you."}]}