{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.24,"body":"This week's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.24,"body":"episode is with a returning"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":3.24,"endTime":6.15,"body":"guest, Paul Kearney and Paul was"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":3.24,"endTime":6.15,"body":"one of the first guests on the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":6.15,"endTime":10.56,"body":"podcast. And as I was sharing"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":6.15,"endTime":10.56,"body":"with him earlier, his episode is"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":10.59,"endTime":14.28,"body":"the third most downloaded"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":10.59,"endTime":14.28,"body":"episode that I've got from the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":14.28,"endTime":17.76,"body":"80 or so that I've now"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":14.28,"endTime":17.76,"body":"published. So it's great to have"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":17.76,"endTime":23.52,"body":"such a superstar for the talking"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":17.76,"endTime":23.52,"body":"DNC podcast. That just goes to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":23.52,"endTime":30.18,"body":"your head. You are you are"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":23.52,"endTime":30.18,"body":"within the DNC world well,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":30.21,"endTime":34.11,"body":"within the small world of my"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":30.21,"endTime":34.11,"body":"podcast, you're a superstar."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":35.22,"endTime":36.24,"body":"That will do me."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":36.99,"endTime":40.44,"body":"Great. But it's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":36.99,"endTime":40.44,"body":"lovely to have you back, Paul."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":40.47,"endTime":42.81,"body":"And this time, we're going to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":40.47,"endTime":42.81,"body":"talk about your second book"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":42.84,"endTime":47.16,"body":"that's come out. Drawing to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":42.84,"endTime":47.16,"body":"learn anything, which I'm really"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":47.16,"endTime":50.34,"body":"excited about. I've got to put a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":47.16,"endTime":50.34,"body":"photograph up somewhere that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":50.34,"endTime":51.96,"body":"shows I have a personally"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":50.34,"endTime":51.96,"body":"signed."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":54.03,"endTime":56.61,"body":"Yes, you're one of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":54.03,"endTime":56.61,"body":"the first people I kind of sent"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":56.61,"endTime":57.18,"body":"one too."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":57.99,"endTime":59.67,"body":"Now. So I've"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":57.99,"endTime":59.67,"body":"really enjoyed it. I've done"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":59.67,"endTime":62.79,"body":"some of the activities and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":59.67,"endTime":62.79,"body":"exercises within it. But anyway,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":62.79,"endTime":65.79,"body":"before we go into that, Paul, do"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":62.79,"endTime":65.79,"body":"you just want to say hello, give"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":65.79,"endTime":67.47,"body":"a little bit of an introduction"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":65.79,"endTime":67.47,"body":"about who you are?"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":67.77,"endTime":70.59,"body":"Hello? Yeah, I'm"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":67.77,"endTime":70.59,"body":"Paul Carney. I'm an art and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":70.59,"endTime":76.26,"body":"design consultant based in"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":70.59,"endTime":76.26,"body":"Newcastle upon Tyne. I was a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":76.26,"endTime":82.59,"body":"secondary teacher, head of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":76.26,"endTime":82.59,"body":"department for about 14 years or"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":82.59,"endTime":86.64,"body":"something. I was an advanced"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":82.59,"endTime":86.64,"body":"skills teacher at secondary. I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":86.64,"endTime":91.08,"body":"started doing a lot of work as"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":86.64,"endTime":91.08,"body":"primary transitions work and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":91.59,"endTime":94.83,"body":"really loved it. So I'm moved to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":91.59,"endTime":94.83,"body":"the primary sector, I actually"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":94.83,"endTime":100.56,"body":"moved to a middle school and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":94.83,"endTime":100.56,"body":"loved it absolutely loved it. If"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":100.56,"endTime":103.23,"body":"I grab my time again, and go"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":100.56,"endTime":103.23,"body":"back to be a primary school"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":103.23,"endTime":107.28,"body":"teacher rather than a secondary"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":103.23,"endTime":107.28,"body":"teacher. Because second, because"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":107.79,"endTime":111.06,"body":"secondary children are often"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":107.79,"endTime":111.06,"body":"going through a lot of hormonal"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":111.06,"endTime":114.87,"body":"angst. And primary teachers,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":111.06,"endTime":114.87,"body":"primary children are just so"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":114.87,"endTime":117.78,"body":"full of love and joy in the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":114.87,"endTime":117.78,"body":"bring your stickers and cakes"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":117.78,"endTime":124.29,"body":"and things or a lot of the kind"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":117.78,"endTime":124.29,"body":"of positivity but all I left the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":124.29,"endTime":129.75,"body":"classroom about 2015 and started"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":124.29,"endTime":129.75,"body":"doing consultancy and training"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":129.75,"endTime":134.94,"body":"work. And I set up my own"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":129.75,"endTime":134.94,"body":"training company with Susan"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":134.94,"endTime":142.29,"body":"calls called spaced. And yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":134.94,"endTime":142.29,"body":"do a lot of work for big"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":142.29,"endTime":148.92,"body":"organisations such as access to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":142.29,"endTime":148.92,"body":"big draw the the RSA, and things"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":148.92,"endTime":151.2,"body":"are going really well at the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":148.92,"endTime":151.2,"body":"kind of moment it's just going"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":151.2,"endTime":154.35,"body":"from strength to strength, not"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":151.2,"endTime":154.35,"body":"enough hours in the day."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":155.16,"endTime":156.81,"body":"No, we were"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":155.16,"endTime":156.81,"body":"talking about that work before"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":156.81,"endTime":160.65,"body":"you hit record about how we have"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":156.81,"endTime":160.65,"body":"to you have to manage some of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":160.65,"endTime":163.71,"body":"the organisational stuff. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":160.65,"endTime":163.71,"body":"to have the space to do the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":163.71,"endTime":165.78,"body":"creative things that we both"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":163.71,"endTime":165.78,"body":"really love."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":166.14,"endTime":168.93,"body":"Yeah. And I think"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":166.14,"endTime":168.93,"body":"it's down to that thing of where"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":168.93,"endTime":175.14,"body":"I think we own the VAT value."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":168.93,"endTime":175.14,"body":"The people who do the, the more"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":175.14,"endTime":179.58,"body":"industrial side of things who do"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":175.14,"endTime":179.58,"body":"the mechanical side of things."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":179.58,"endTime":183.45,"body":"It's like it's all very well and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":179.58,"endTime":183.45,"body":"good being the kind of chat chat"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":183.48,"endTime":188.52,"body":"cherry on the top of a cake. But"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":183.48,"endTime":188.52,"body":"you need the cake, first of all,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":188.52,"endTime":191.46,"body":"and if you don't have that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":188.52,"endTime":191.46,"body":"you're getting nothing. And it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":191.49,"endTime":195.03,"body":"I think it's really important"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":191.49,"endTime":195.03,"body":"for design to kind of know that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":195.03,"endTime":196.38,"body":"as well."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":197.28,"endTime":199.41,"body":"Yeah, it's not"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":197.28,"endTime":199.41,"body":"just finished product, is it?"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":199.41,"endTime":202.8,"body":"It's stuff that's gone on"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":199.41,"endTime":202.8,"body":"before. I like that analogy. I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":202.8,"endTime":204.06,"body":"can kind of go to town with"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":202.8,"endTime":204.06,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":208.41,"endTime":209.52,"body":"Okay, next week."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":211.08,"endTime":213.06,"body":"I know you've"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":211.08,"endTime":213.06,"body":"taken me off into a whole realm."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":213.3,"endTime":219.42,"body":"Thinking morning, can I justify"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":213.3,"endTime":219.42,"body":"getting that cake out? MID"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":219.42,"endTime":222.42,"body":"morning coffee. Anyway, let's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":219.42,"endTime":222.42,"body":"get back to this. So you've got"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":222.42,"endTime":225.78,"body":"you've got this book out. It's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":222.42,"endTime":225.78,"body":"out with our good friends left"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":225.78,"endTime":230.31,"body":"for design press. Yeah. And with"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":225.78,"endTime":230.31,"body":"Kathy Norman, now taking over"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":230.31,"endTime":234.72,"body":"the helm of that from her dad,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":230.31,"endTime":234.72,"body":"Eddie. So that's been that's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":234.72,"endTime":238.2,"body":"great that Cathy's involved. And"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":234.72,"endTime":238.2,"body":"you're working with Kathy. So"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":238.26,"endTime":241.14,"body":"tell us a little bit about this"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":238.26,"endTime":241.14,"body":"new book. It's not it's not new"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":241.14,"endTime":243.15,"body":"anymore. It it's been out for"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":241.14,"endTime":243.15,"body":"almost a year, hasn't it?"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":243.63,"endTime":244.86,"body":"About six months"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":243.63,"endTime":244.86,"body":"now?"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":244.98,"endTime":245.85,"body":"Is it right? Okay."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":245.91,"endTime":249.57,"body":"I actually wrote it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":245.91,"endTime":249.57,"body":"about two years ago. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":249.63,"endTime":255.27,"body":"originally it was just gonna be"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":249.63,"endTime":255.27,"body":"a PDF. It was just going to be a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":255.27,"endTime":261.03,"body":"simple PDF that I was going to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":255.27,"endTime":261.03,"body":"put onto my website. Because I'd"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":261.03,"endTime":267.48,"body":"heard a piece of research that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":261.03,"endTime":267.48,"body":"really struck a chord with with"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":267.48,"endTime":271.26,"body":"me and the piece of research was"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":267.48,"endTime":271.26,"body":"done by some Canadian"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":271.26,"endTime":276.72,"body":"researchers called Fernandez one"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":271.26,"endTime":276.72,"body":"as and Mead. And they done a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":276.72,"endTime":283.05,"body":"really big robust piece of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":276.72,"endTime":283.05,"body":"research to measure what the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":283.05,"endTime":288.33,"body":"most effective ways to remember"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":283.05,"endTime":288.33,"body":"things were mnemonic advice"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":288.93,"endTime":296.46,"body":"mnemonics systems, and they"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":288.93,"endTime":296.46,"body":"tested and compared different"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":296.46,"endTime":302.97,"body":"devices. And they found that The"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":296.46,"endTime":302.97,"body":"learning gains from droid were"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":302.97,"endTime":308.49,"body":"greater than any other mnemonic"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":302.97,"endTime":308.49,"body":"technique. And that included"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":308.49,"endTime":313.02,"body":"visualising included writing"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":308.49,"endTime":313.02,"body":"things down, it included a whole"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":313.02,"endTime":318.39,"body":"kind of range of different ways"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":313.02,"endTime":318.39,"body":"people remember, and yet kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":318.39,"endTime":323.58,"body":"drawing was the most effective."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":318.39,"endTime":323.58,"body":"And some notable notable"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":323.76,"endTime":332.04,"body":"researchers who, let's just say,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":323.76,"endTime":332.04,"body":"kind of prominent influences on"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":332.1,"endTime":337.71,"body":"educational policy in in in"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":332.1,"endTime":337.71,"body":"England at the moment, wrote"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":337.71,"endTime":341.73,"body":"about it, and looked at it and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":337.71,"endTime":341.73,"body":"said, yes, it's really good."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":341.73,"endTime":346.02,"body":"This is brilliant. But it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":341.73,"endTime":346.02,"body":"doesn't have much place in the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":346.02,"endTime":346.89,"body":"kind of classroom."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":348.81,"endTime":350.88,"body":"How can I believe"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":348.81,"endTime":350.88,"body":"that response? Can you really"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":350.91,"endTime":355.53,"body":"know? And I was, I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":350.91,"endTime":355.53,"body":"was so annoyed about that. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":355.53,"endTime":359.7,"body":"it was right at the height of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":355.53,"endTime":359.7,"body":"when there was a traditionalist"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":360.24,"endTime":365.7,"body":"thrust, if you like, from the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":360.24,"endTime":365.7,"body":"kind of DFE it's when kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":365.76,"endTime":370.83,"body":"art subjects were being slashed."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":365.76,"endTime":370.83,"body":"It's when DF it's when DT saw"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":370.92,"endTime":375.12,"body":"subjects would decline in"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":370.92,"endTime":375.12,"body":"through the floor. And it was"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":375.12,"endTime":378.48,"body":"just an almost blanket refusal"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":375.12,"endTime":378.48,"body":"to accept that there was"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":378.48,"endTime":384.03,"body":"anything outside of their field"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":378.48,"endTime":384.03,"body":"of what they believe worked. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":384.03,"endTime":388.26,"body":"you still see this now this"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":384.03,"endTime":388.26,"body":"closed wall, there's like a wall"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":388.26,"endTime":393.06,"body":"isn't there around this notion"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":388.26,"endTime":393.06,"body":"of this works and everything"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":393.06,"endTime":398.19,"body":"that's got creativity attached"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":393.06,"endTime":398.19,"body":"to it is somehow superficial and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":398.19,"endTime":405.3,"body":"trite and involves people you"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":398.19,"endTime":405.3,"body":"know, doing trivial playful"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":405.3,"endTime":410.58,"body":"things that have no meaning. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":405.3,"endTime":410.58,"body":"as a creative expert, this"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":410.64,"endTime":418.14,"body":"really makes my, my, it really"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":410.64,"endTime":418.14,"body":"makes my teeth grind. So anyway,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":418.95,"endTime":424.89,"body":"I thought maybe it's because"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":418.95,"endTime":424.89,"body":"outside of the role of artists"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":424.89,"endTime":428.19,"body":"and designers, maybe people"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":424.89,"endTime":428.19,"body":"don't know how to use can draw"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":428.19,"endTime":434.88,"body":"in in any way other than as an"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":428.19,"endTime":434.88,"body":"artistic aesthetic thing. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":434.88,"endTime":438.09,"body":"um, as you know, my first book"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":434.88,"endTime":438.09,"body":"was drawing for coleg for"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":438.09,"endTime":444.93,"body":"cognition. And saw, I started"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":438.09,"endTime":444.93,"body":"putting together I looked at the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":444.93,"endTime":447.75,"body":"research and started to think"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":444.93,"endTime":447.75,"body":"how could I elaborate it and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":447.75,"endTime":454.17,"body":"expand it and strengthen it. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":447.75,"endTime":454.17,"body":"I developed a system that I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":454.17,"endTime":460.62,"body":"called sad, which is syllable"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":454.17,"endTime":460.62,"body":"sound Association, draw drawing."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":461.76,"endTime":472.8,"body":"And it's basically it uses"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":461.76,"endTime":472.8,"body":"different non mnemonic Tech Tech"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":472.86,"endTime":479.61,"body":"techniques, such as breaking"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":472.86,"endTime":479.61,"body":"words down into six syllables."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":481.26,"endTime":486.03,"body":"It's, so it's breaking words"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":481.26,"endTime":486.03,"body":"down into the syllable sounds,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":486.36,"endTime":491.28,"body":"and it's drawing. And it's true,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":486.36,"endTime":491.28,"body":"and it's visualising it's using"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":491.31,"endTime":498.27,"body":"using jewel cording. And it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":491.31,"endTime":498.27,"body":"using spaced retrieval. So that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":498.3,"endTime":502.98,"body":"what you do is you take a word,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":498.3,"endTime":502.98,"body":"let's say you take the word or"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":502.98,"endTime":507.27,"body":"mean or as an amino acid, and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":502.98,"endTime":507.27,"body":"you want to remember that word,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":507.84,"endTime":513.36,"body":"you break it down into the three"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":507.84,"endTime":513.36,"body":"sounds of our mean nor, and you"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":513.36,"endTime":519.12,"body":"draw something to represent the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":513.36,"endTime":519.12,"body":"sound of something to represent"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":519.12,"endTime":522.87,"body":"the sound of mean, and something"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":519.12,"endTime":522.87,"body":"to represent the sound of law."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":525.0,"endTime":531.42,"body":"And then you draw the meaning of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":525.0,"endTime":531.42,"body":"the word. And so in this way,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":531.63,"endTime":536.1,"body":"what you do then is you, you're"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":531.63,"endTime":536.1,"body":"drawing it and you learn it,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":536.1,"endTime":538.77,"body":"then you give yourself a few"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":536.1,"endTime":538.77,"body":"minutes, and then you try to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":538.77,"endTime":541.29,"body":"remember it, then you give"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":538.77,"endTime":541.29,"body":"yourself another hour. And so"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":541.29,"endTime":546.48,"body":"you do like gradually spaced"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":541.29,"endTime":546.48,"body":"retrieval over time. And I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":546.48,"endTime":549.9,"body":"started learning anatomy through"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":546.48,"endTime":549.9,"body":"it because I was doing a lot of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":549.9,"endTime":553.59,"body":"drawing of anatomy. And I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":549.9,"endTime":553.59,"body":"started using it to learn that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":553.65,"endTime":559.47,"body":"and I forget things terribly"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":553.65,"endTime":559.47,"body":"names. I'm just like the names"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":559.47,"endTime":562.68,"body":"of people, famous artists. I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":559.47,"endTime":562.68,"body":"mean, you'd think I would know"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":562.68,"endTime":566.94,"body":"these things, but honestly, I'm"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":562.68,"endTime":566.94,"body":"just terrible. And I found this"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":566.94,"endTime":572.94,"body":"really worked. It really, really"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":566.94,"endTime":572.94,"body":"worked. And so I was just gonna"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":572.94,"endTime":577.59,"body":"put it out as a PDF. And then it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":572.94,"endTime":577.59,"body":"just grew and it grew and it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":577.59,"endTime":581.64,"body":"grew and dislike all things. I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":577.59,"endTime":581.64,"body":"just started to work on it more"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":581.64,"endTime":586.83,"body":"than I should. Because I was"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":581.64,"endTime":586.83,"body":"passionate about it. And I think"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":586.83,"endTime":589.83,"body":"when you care about something"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":586.83,"endTime":589.83,"body":"and you get the bit between your"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":589.83,"endTime":592.59,"body":"teeth, it's just started"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":589.83,"endTime":592.59,"body":"thinking, and I was thinking,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":592.59,"endTime":594.72,"body":"well actually, you could use"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":592.59,"endTime":594.72,"body":"time for this and you could use"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":594.72,"endTime":598.95,"body":"drying for that. And the only"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":594.72,"endTime":598.95,"body":"thing I'd say about it was that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":598.95,"endTime":603.15,"body":"it was extremely difficult for"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":598.95,"endTime":603.15,"body":"me as the kind of writer of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":603.15,"endTime":607.74,"body":"book, I was outside my comfort"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":603.15,"endTime":607.74,"body":"zone for a lot, because I was"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":607.74,"endTime":612.36,"body":"trying to justify how drawing"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":607.74,"endTime":612.36,"body":"could be used in any subject"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":612.36,"endTime":615.66,"body":"across the school to try and win"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":612.36,"endTime":615.66,"body":"over these people who didn't"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":615.84,"endTime":619.8,"body":"understand why it was relevant."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":615.84,"endTime":619.8,"body":"And so I was trying to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":619.8,"endTime":623.55,"body":"understand how you might you"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":619.8,"endTime":623.55,"body":"apply these techniques and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":623.64,"endTime":629.7,"body":"languages, or, you know, a bit"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":623.64,"endTime":629.7,"body":"about DTS, I was okay there, but"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":630.42,"endTime":635.91,"body":"things like geography or history"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":630.42,"endTime":635.91,"body":"or math saw. And so I was"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":635.91,"endTime":640.35,"body":"outside my comfort zone a lot, a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":635.91,"endTime":640.35,"body":"lot of the time, and I asked for"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":640.41,"endTime":645.0,"body":"a lot of help from subject"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":640.41,"endTime":645.0,"body":"specialists. But everybody was"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":645.0,"endTime":649.56,"body":"working and saw busy and ended"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":645.0,"endTime":649.56,"body":"up meeting with it as these"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":649.56,"endTime":650.64,"body":"things usually do."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":652.44,"endTime":655.62,"body":"And yeah, and I just refined it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":652.44,"endTime":655.62,"body":"and kind of put it out there."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":655.62,"endTime":660.51,"body":"And then I kind of threw it out"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":655.62,"endTime":660.51,"body":"to LA for design press. And I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":660.51,"endTime":663.36,"body":"know Kathy was taken over, and I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":660.51,"endTime":663.36,"body":"didn't know whether she was"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":663.36,"endTime":668.19,"body":"gonna take over the reins. But"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":663.36,"endTime":668.19,"body":"when she did, she looked at it."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":668.19,"endTime":671.67,"body":"And she went, Yeah, yeah, it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":668.19,"endTime":671.67,"body":"kind of definitely do it. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":671.67,"endTime":672.75,"body":"she really loved it."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":673.56,"endTime":675.42,"body":"When it's coming"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":673.56,"endTime":675.42,"body":"together really nicely, it's a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":675.42,"endTime":679.23,"body":"book. And if and you will use"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":675.42,"endTime":679.23,"body":"the word passion, just as I was"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":679.62,"endTime":682.38,"body":"about to say, it's clearly a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":679.62,"endTime":682.38,"body":"passion project."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":682.5,"endTime":683.04,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":683.55,"endTime":686.49,"body":"You know, and, you"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":683.55,"endTime":686.49,"body":"know, the book is really nicely"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":686.49,"endTime":690.09,"body":"laid out with the, with the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":686.49,"endTime":690.09,"body":"drawings with the text with the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":690.09,"endTime":695.22,"body":"photographs. It's a real hands"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":690.09,"endTime":695.22,"body":"on book and accessible, you"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":695.22,"endTime":698.43,"body":"know, as, as your other book"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":695.22,"endTime":698.43,"body":"was, and our slipper design"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":698.43,"endTime":701.88,"body":"press books are so yeah, it's a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":698.43,"endTime":701.88,"body":"really, it's a really nice book."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":701.88,"endTime":705.06,"body":"So I'm gonna, I'm gonna move you"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":701.88,"endTime":705.06,"body":"on to think about that chapter"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":705.06,"endTime":708.21,"body":"five in your book, because that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":705.06,"endTime":708.21,"body":"was sort of where it really"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":708.21,"endTime":712.17,"body":"resonated for me around drawing"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":708.21,"endTime":712.17,"body":"within design and technology."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":713.58,"endTime":717.39,"body":"And about sort of development"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":713.58,"endTime":717.39,"body":"and thinking. So join us has a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":717.39,"endTime":720.81,"body":"little bit about chapter five,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":717.39,"endTime":720.81,"body":"because that's all around four"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":720.81,"endTime":725.07,"body":"dimensional. Yeah, going in four"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":720.81,"endTime":725.07,"body":"dimensions, which people might"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":725.13,"endTime":727.05,"body":"think for about three?"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":727.98,"endTime":730.2,"body":"Well, yeah, so"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":727.98,"endTime":730.2,"body":"obviously, the fourth dimension"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":730.2,"endTime":737.25,"body":"is time. And that section came"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":730.2,"endTime":737.25,"body":"about because I was going into"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":737.25,"endTime":745.44,"body":"hot into hospital. And I was"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":737.25,"endTime":745.44,"body":"having an operation dawn, and I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":745.44,"endTime":752.61,"body":"was flabbergasted at how the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":745.44,"endTime":752.61,"body":"hospital administration is so"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":756.12,"endTime":761.79,"body":"weak and nervous about making"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":756.12,"endTime":761.79,"body":"mistakes that they duplicate,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":761.79,"endTime":766.11,"body":"triplicate, quadruplicate, every"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":761.79,"endTime":766.11,"body":"piece of information, that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":766.11,"endTime":770.07,"body":"everyone has to create their own"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":766.11,"endTime":770.07,"body":"bit of information about things."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":770.13,"endTime":779.19,"body":"And I was just about to be put"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":770.13,"endTime":779.19,"body":"onto the anaesthetic. And the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":779.19,"endTime":782.7,"body":"guys turn on me and went, can I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":779.19,"endTime":782.7,"body":"just ask you something, Paul? I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":782.7,"endTime":787.8,"body":"said, Yes. You he said, What?"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":782.7,"endTime":787.8,"body":"What are you having done?"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":789.3,"endTime":790.05,"body":"No,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":790.89,"endTime":794.16,"body":"not went? Pardon."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":790.89,"endTime":794.16,"body":"He went, I just wanted to kind"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":794.16,"endTime":798.75,"body":"of know, I just haven't got a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":794.16,"endTime":798.75,"body":"clue. I was like, Whoa, I would"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":798.75,"endTime":803.73,"body":"have thought you should know"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":798.75,"endTime":803.73,"body":"this. Oh, my goodness. So he"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":803.73,"endTime":805.95,"body":"went off. And he found the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":803.73,"endTime":805.95,"body":"naughty one. All right. Okay,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":805.95,"endTime":809.97,"body":"I've kind of found it what it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":805.95,"endTime":809.97,"body":"is. And I just thought that,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":810.66,"endTime":815.91,"body":"when you're doing something big"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":810.66,"endTime":815.91,"body":"all the time, you're kind of,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":816.36,"endTime":820.86,"body":"you don't always you're not"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":816.36,"endTime":820.86,"body":"always fully aware of all of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":820.86,"endTime":824.1,"body":"process, you kind of dip in and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":820.86,"endTime":824.1,"body":"out of it. And if there's a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":824.1,"endTime":829.53,"body":"group of people working on some"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":824.1,"endTime":829.53,"body":"some thing that they don't"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":829.77,"endTime":834.12,"body":"always know, all of, they don't"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":829.77,"endTime":834.12,"body":"know everybody else's parts,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":834.15,"endTime":840.69,"body":"often they just know there's and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":834.15,"endTime":840.69,"body":"saw, it occurred to me that if"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":840.69,"endTime":845.7,"body":"the surgeon, a donor, and many"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":840.69,"endTime":845.7,"body":"surgeons do do kind of draw"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":845.73,"endTime":849.81,"body":"drawings of things of processes,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":845.73,"endTime":849.81,"body":"and this is what we're going to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":849.81,"endTime":854.28,"body":"do, Paul, that they could have"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":849.81,"endTime":854.28,"body":"these drawings in advance and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":854.28,"endTime":857.16,"body":"give you them like a set of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":854.28,"endTime":857.16,"body":"instructions, this is what we're"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":857.16,"endTime":861.27,"body":"going to do to you. And you"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":857.16,"endTime":861.27,"body":"could see the kind of pictures"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":861.27,"endTime":864.69,"body":"you don't need to translate it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":861.27,"endTime":864.69,"body":"to any other language, you can"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":864.69,"endTime":866.58,"body":"see the pictures that they're"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":864.69,"endTime":866.58,"body":"gonna, that this is what we're"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":866.58,"endTime":871.41,"body":"gonna do. And then in the book,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":866.58,"endTime":871.41,"body":"I use the example of a hip of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":871.53,"endTime":879.24,"body":"operation. But mine wasn't mine"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":871.53,"endTime":879.24,"body":"was something different. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":879.69,"endTime":884.73,"body":"anyway, so that made me realise"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":879.69,"endTime":884.73,"body":"that I could the surgeons can"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":884.73,"endTime":888.3,"body":"have a bank of kind of drawing"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":884.73,"endTime":888.3,"body":"instructions, and that I could"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":888.3,"endTime":890.88,"body":"be given this set of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":888.3,"endTime":890.88,"body":"instructions and everybody could"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":890.88,"endTime":894.81,"body":"know these, the same set of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":890.88,"endTime":894.81,"body":"sequences, and then we could all"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":894.81,"endTime":900.57,"body":"work from it. And it's rather"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":894.81,"endTime":900.57,"body":"like if you go to Ikea nearby"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":900.57,"endTime":903.99,"body":"your bookcase, like a billy"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":900.57,"endTime":903.99,"body":"bookcase, and you get a set of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":903.99,"endTime":908.28,"body":"instructions. And it's all kind"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":903.99,"endTime":908.28,"body":"of drawn out stages of that, how"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":908.28,"endTime":913.65,"body":"to build it, you think great, we"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":908.28,"endTime":913.65,"body":"can all come do it. But the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":913.65,"endTime":916.89,"body":"reality is not like that. The"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":913.65,"endTime":916.89,"body":"reality of building that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":916.89,"endTime":922.59,"body":"bookcase is different for"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":916.89,"endTime":922.59,"body":"everybody. And you know it, some"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":922.59,"endTime":926.22,"body":"people don't put this bit the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":922.59,"endTime":926.22,"body":"right way around, and some"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":926.22,"endTime":932.13,"body":"people lose the screws, and some"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":926.22,"endTime":932.13,"body":"people get frustrated and, and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":932.16,"endTime":941.79,"body":"you've got all these different x"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":932.16,"endTime":941.79,"body":"x experiences. And if then you"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":941.82,"endTime":946.74,"body":"take that analogy, and you use"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":941.82,"endTime":946.74,"body":"it, when you're making something"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":946.74,"endTime":950.46,"body":"and you're planning something"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":946.74,"endTime":950.46,"body":"and you're designing it, instead"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":950.46,"endTime":956.04,"body":"of just designing a finished"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":950.46,"endTime":956.04,"body":"thing, an end product product,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":956.7,"endTime":961.98,"body":"if you design the stages of how"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":956.7,"endTime":961.98,"body":"you're going to make it. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":962.01,"endTime":964.2,"body":"you'll say, well, first, I'm"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":962.01,"endTime":964.2,"body":"going to do this, and you're not"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":964.2,"endTime":967.26,"body":"just thinking of it in your"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":964.2,"endTime":967.26,"body":"head, you're translating those"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":967.26,"endTime":973.11,"body":"thoughts into a drawing that,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":967.26,"endTime":973.11,"body":"you know, engineers do this,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":973.17,"endTime":976.56,"body":"architects do it, and they're"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":973.17,"endTime":976.56,"body":"working trying to throw onto one"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":976.56,"endTime":980.67,"body":"side. But if you, if you then"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":976.56,"endTime":980.67,"body":"have a set of instructions for"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":980.67,"endTime":986.76,"body":"how you need to do this, then"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":980.67,"endTime":986.76,"body":"you formalise the process by"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":986.76,"endTime":990.24,"body":"which you're going to make it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":986.76,"endTime":990.24,"body":"and then if you when you're"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":990.24,"endTime":995.31,"body":"doing it, you make further"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":990.24,"endTime":995.31,"body":"drawings over the instructions"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":995.34,"endTime":999.72,"body":"of what's going on what kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":995.34,"endTime":999.72,"body":"happened each stage like, Oh, I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":999.72,"endTime":1004.04,"body":"got this bit wrong, like, I put"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":999.72,"endTime":1004.04,"body":"too much glue on here and it got"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1004.04,"endTime":1009.2,"body":"messy, and then it wouldn't set"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1004.04,"endTime":1009.2,"body":"or I didn't put a clamp on it or"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1009.2,"endTime":1015.89,"body":"whatever, then the teacher can"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1009.2,"endTime":1015.89,"body":"look at what you've done and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1015.89,"endTime":1019.76,"body":"instantly see in a visual way"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1015.89,"endTime":1019.76,"body":"are right, this is what you need"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1019.76,"endTime":1022.97,"body":"to do. And you're thinking about"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1019.76,"endTime":1022.97,"body":"it, you're duplicating it,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1023.0,"endTime":1029.39,"body":"you're going through a process"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1023.0,"endTime":1029.39,"body":"of iteration to repeat your"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1029.39,"endTime":1035.24,"body":"learning mistakes, your learning"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1029.39,"endTime":1035.24,"body":"successes. And I think it's it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1035.24,"endTime":1042.05,"body":"that really, it's about nailing"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1035.24,"endTime":1042.05,"body":"down I guess about formalising"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1042.08,"endTime":1046.49,"body":"each of the American stages when"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1042.08,"endTime":1046.49,"body":"you're in the early place. And I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1046.49,"endTime":1053.33,"body":"read some research by Dr. Bill"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1046.49,"endTime":1053.33,"body":"Wilkinson, of a school in Bath,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1053.36,"endTime":1057.98,"body":"he's a deputy head of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1053.36,"endTime":1057.98,"body":"science department. And he was"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1057.98,"endTime":1061.58,"body":"giving some advice on his"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1057.98,"endTime":1061.58,"body":"webpage about advice for doing"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1061.58,"endTime":1066.02,"body":"practical experiments in such"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1061.58,"endTime":1066.02,"body":"science and why they go wrong."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1066.98,"endTime":1067.76,"body":"And he said"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1069.11,"endTime":1076.52,"body":"in the first place, the students"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1069.11,"endTime":1076.52,"body":"haven't visualised each stage of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1076.52,"endTime":1081.11,"body":"the air experiment. They don't"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1076.52,"endTime":1081.11,"body":"know what they're going to do"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1081.11,"endTime":1085.91,"body":"when they're working blind blind"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1081.11,"endTime":1085.91,"body":"blindly. So they don't know that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1085.94,"endTime":1090.14,"body":"the causality of if I do this,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1085.94,"endTime":1090.14,"body":"this will happen. And if I do"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1090.14,"endTime":1095.57,"body":"this, that would happen. And so"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1090.14,"endTime":1095.57,"body":"they haven't formalised the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1095.57,"endTime":1099.47,"body":"process before they begin it."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1095.57,"endTime":1099.47,"body":"And he said, the issues with"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1099.47,"endTime":1105.8,"body":"practical soft sciences that and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1099.47,"endTime":1105.8,"body":"he made a list of students don't"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1105.8,"endTime":1111.29,"body":"complete the work correctly."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1105.8,"endTime":1111.29,"body":"They don't all engage with it."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1112.37,"endTime":1115.49,"body":"They get aspects of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1112.37,"endTime":1115.49,"body":"practical work world and make"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1115.49,"endTime":1119.21,"body":"the wrong discoveries. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1115.49,"endTime":1119.21,"body":"they're not thinking about the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1119.21,"endTime":1123.44,"body":"bigger concept behind why"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1119.21,"endTime":1123.44,"body":"they're actually doing it. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1123.47,"endTime":1127.76,"body":"ultimately, they don't remember"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1123.47,"endTime":1127.76,"body":"what the teacher wants them to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1127.79,"endTime":1132.83,"body":"remember. And I think by going"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1127.79,"endTime":1132.83,"body":"through these stages of drawing"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1133.67,"endTime":1138.68,"body":"your process before you do it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1133.67,"endTime":1138.68,"body":"helps you to understand how"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1138.68,"endTime":1140.87,"body":"you're going to make it. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1138.68,"endTime":1140.87,"body":"yeah,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1140.87,"endTime":1144.14,"body":"I think I found"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1140.87,"endTime":1144.14,"body":"that really, sort of I was"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1144.14,"endTime":1147.35,"body":"thinking about it about how how"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1144.14,"endTime":1147.35,"body":"we do that in design technology."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1147.35,"endTime":1153.53,"body":"And we used to do storyboards of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1147.35,"endTime":1153.53,"body":"planning. And that that then"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1153.53,"endTime":1156.65,"body":"became almost artwork in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1153.53,"endTime":1156.65,"body":"themselves or were too"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1156.65,"endTime":1160.88,"body":"restrictive. Yeah, way. And we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1156.65,"endTime":1160.88,"body":"used to do flowcharts and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1160.88,"endTime":1164.12,"body":"search. But I think the way"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1160.88,"endTime":1164.12,"body":"you're talking about it is much"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1164.12,"endTime":1167.51,"body":"more almost as a planning"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1164.12,"endTime":1167.51,"body":"journal and then almost as a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1167.51,"endTime":1172.25,"body":"reflective journal. Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1167.51,"endTime":1172.25,"body":"So I sort of see this being with"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1172.25,"endTime":1177.86,"body":"them. And those those drawings"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1172.25,"endTime":1177.86,"body":"are for themselves or not for"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1178.13,"endTime":1182.9,"body":"for show. It's a different way"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1178.13,"endTime":1182.9,"body":"of using drawings. God Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1182.93,"endTime":1186.41,"body":"I mean, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1182.93,"endTime":1186.41,"body":"when I was doing dt, there was"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1186.41,"endTime":1191.36,"body":"such an emphasis on presentare"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1186.41,"endTime":1191.36,"body":"Titian and this is a problem in"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1191.36,"endTime":1195.65,"body":"art as well where teachers are"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1191.36,"endTime":1195.65,"body":"rewarding things that are"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1195.65,"endTime":1200.78,"body":"presented well and neat and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1195.65,"endTime":1200.78,"body":"beautiful and and If you've ever"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1200.78,"endTime":1205.79,"body":"looked at any of my working"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1200.78,"endTime":1205.79,"body":"drawings for art and design,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1206.33,"endTime":1209.39,"body":"they were never neat, there"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1206.33,"endTime":1209.39,"body":"wouldn't have won any prizes,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1209.39,"endTime":1214.58,"body":"points or scores for it. Because"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1209.39,"endTime":1214.58,"body":"it's not important in my head,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1215.0,"endTime":1219.32,"body":"I'm not interested in making a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1215.0,"endTime":1219.32,"body":"pretty image, I'm interested in"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1219.32,"endTime":1226.22,"body":"the cognitive process behind it."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1219.32,"endTime":1226.22,"body":"And I think if DT students had a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1226.22,"endTime":1232.01,"body":"kind of journal a book that they"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1226.22,"endTime":1232.01,"body":"would plan out how they were"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1232.01,"endTime":1236.6,"body":"going to make it and review and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1232.01,"endTime":1236.6,"body":"evaluate. And the thing about a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1236.6,"endTime":1242.24,"body":"VA evaluation is it's not a tool"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1236.6,"endTime":1242.24,"body":"to be done, after you have made"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1242.36,"endTime":1246.95,"body":"a thing it can be, but it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1242.36,"endTime":1246.95,"body":"better as an ongoing thing,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1246.95,"endTime":1251.0,"body":"isn't it? Where you, you're"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1246.95,"endTime":1251.0,"body":"doing it as a continual process,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1251.36,"endTime":1253.7,"body":"and you're doing it anyway,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1251.36,"endTime":1253.7,"body":"you're doing it in your head."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1254.33,"endTime":1261.2,"body":"But I think if you're drawing it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1254.33,"endTime":1261.2,"body":"around your process, your"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1261.2,"endTime":1264.35,"body":"instructions and you're making a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1261.2,"endTime":1264.35,"body":"little drawings and this went"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1264.35,"endTime":1268.22,"body":"wrong, or this was brilliant,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1264.35,"endTime":1268.22,"body":"and then it becomes a more"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1268.25,"endTime":1272.33,"body":"important working doc document,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1268.25,"endTime":1272.33,"body":"really, and I think that's,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1272.69,"endTime":1276.74,"body":"that's, that's why you're, why"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1272.69,"endTime":1276.74,"body":"you're doing it really to learn."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1277.61,"endTime":1280.91,"body":"Yeah, I could sort"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1277.61,"endTime":1280.91,"body":"of see that, that, that by doing"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1280.91,"endTime":1284.27,"body":"more of that, you know, and I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1280.91,"endTime":1284.27,"body":"can hear teachers saying, we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1284.27,"endTime":1286.64,"body":"already have lots to do in the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1284.27,"endTime":1286.64,"body":"classroom of what you're saying"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1286.64,"endTime":1290.48,"body":"is that these drawings are"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1286.64,"endTime":1290.48,"body":"personal, they're not perfect."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1291.74,"endTime":1295.49,"body":"You know, they're not neat"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1291.74,"endTime":1295.49,"body":"nonsense. And they are there for"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1295.49,"endTime":1299.42,"body":"learning, they're there for"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1295.49,"endTime":1299.42,"body":"helping the students become"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1299.42,"endTime":1303.89,"body":"autonomous, in what they're"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1299.42,"endTime":1303.89,"body":"doing, rather than trying, I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1303.89,"endTime":1307.52,"body":"mean, yeah, and strengthening"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1303.89,"endTime":1307.52,"body":"their, their understanding other"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1307.52,"endTime":1308.06,"body":"critical"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1308.06,"endTime":1310.58,"body":"thinkers is their"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1308.06,"endTime":1310.58,"body":"ability to make the right"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1310.58,"endTime":1314.48,"body":"decisions at the right time and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1310.58,"endTime":1314.48,"body":"identify this is where it went"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1314.48,"endTime":1318.47,"body":"wrong. And this is what I did"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1314.48,"endTime":1318.47,"body":"wrong. And, and being able to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1318.47,"endTime":1323.0,"body":"trace that kind of journey back."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1318.47,"endTime":1323.0,"body":"And with regard to work, Lord,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1323.66,"endTime":1328.13,"body":"I'm a huge fan of teachers not"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1323.66,"endTime":1328.13,"body":"doing a single scrap more than"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1328.13,"endTime":1336.35,"body":"they have to. And I would say,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1328.13,"endTime":1336.35,"body":"this is not a tool for you, it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1336.35,"endTime":1343.49,"body":"not a burden for you to do it."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1336.35,"endTime":1343.49,"body":"It's, it's, it's, it's for them,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1344.36,"endTime":1348.2,"body":"it's for them to kind of do this"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1344.36,"endTime":1348.2,"body":"and then to kit take ownership"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1348.23,"endTime":1351.8,"body":"of it, and do it in any format"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1348.23,"endTime":1351.8,"body":"that suits them. Some people"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1351.8,"endTime":1355.91,"body":"might want to do it in a digital"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1351.8,"endTime":1355.91,"body":"format, some people might want"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1355.91,"endTime":1360.02,"body":"to do it like me on a piece of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1355.91,"endTime":1360.02,"body":"paper or back of an envelope or"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1360.02,"endTime":1365.51,"body":"whatever. I just think it's,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1360.02,"endTime":1365.51,"body":"it's, it's something for them to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1365.51,"endTime":1368.63,"body":"do to strengthen their learning"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1365.51,"endTime":1368.63,"body":"and make them more intelligent,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1368.63,"endTime":1370.43,"body":"responsive designers."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1371.57,"endTime":1373.22,"body":"Yeah, I think I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1371.57,"endTime":1373.22,"body":"think something really important"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1373.22,"endTime":1376.61,"body":"about that kind of capturing"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1373.22,"endTime":1376.61,"body":"things in the moment, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1376.61,"endTime":1380.54,"body":"I know. Richard Kimble and Kay"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1376.61,"endTime":1380.54,"body":"stables do quite a lot of work"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1380.54,"endTime":1384.29,"body":"around children capturing what"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1380.54,"endTime":1384.29,"body":"they were doing by using"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1384.29,"endTime":1387.56,"body":"photographs, as part of a design"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1384.29,"endTime":1387.56,"body":"project that we're doing that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1387.56,"endTime":1390.71,"body":"was assessed, and the children"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1387.56,"endTime":1390.71,"body":"were able to take photographs"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1390.71,"endTime":1394.43,"body":"or, or, you know, record things."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1390.71,"endTime":1394.43,"body":"And that's, I think that's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1394.43,"endTime":1398.54,"body":"really powerful. Because it"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1394.43,"endTime":1398.54,"body":"becomes a memory job, but also"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1398.54,"endTime":1402.68,"body":"it gives them something to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1398.54,"endTime":1402.68,"body":"reflect on for themselves, about"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1402.68,"endTime":1406.58,"body":"what's been what's been going"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1402.68,"endTime":1406.58,"body":"on. And there has been, we've"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1406.58,"endTime":1409.97,"body":"almost become so much part of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1406.58,"endTime":1409.97,"body":"that digital age of taking"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1409.97,"endTime":1413.21,"body":"photographs and getting excited"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1409.97,"endTime":1413.21,"body":"as Dan teaches. And I remember"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1413.21,"endTime":1417.2,"body":"when I was teaching, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1413.21,"endTime":1417.2,"body":"digital cameras, and such as"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1417.26,"endTime":1420.11,"body":"taking photographs of things, we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1417.26,"endTime":1420.11,"body":"then lost the fact that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1420.17,"endTime":1422.36,"body":"actually, we could just sketch"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1420.17,"endTime":1422.36,"body":"this, we could just draw it, we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1422.36,"endTime":1424.52,"body":"could just cut something out and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1422.36,"endTime":1424.52,"body":"stick it in a scrapbook. And"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1425.0,"endTime":1427.46,"body":"people are used to doing"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1425.0,"endTime":1427.46,"body":"textiles design are more"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1427.46,"endTime":1431.42,"body":"comfortable with that, in many"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1427.46,"endTime":1431.42,"body":"ways of having a scrapbook of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1431.42,"endTime":1434.48,"body":"their thinking of their"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1431.42,"endTime":1434.48,"body":"exploration. And we've sort of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1434.48,"endTime":1437.78,"body":"moved away that, from that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1434.48,"endTime":1437.78,"body":"within design and technology."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1437.87,"endTime":1440.15,"body":"Some of some people have I'm not"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1437.87,"endTime":1440.15,"body":"saying everybody has, but I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1440.15,"endTime":1444.47,"body":"really like that way of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1440.15,"endTime":1444.47,"body":"sketching the process and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1444.56,"endTime":1446.99,"body":"sketching how you think it's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1444.56,"endTime":1446.99,"body":"gonna work you've got you've got"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1446.99,"endTime":1450.95,"body":"one having you here about doing"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1446.99,"endTime":1450.95,"body":"an experiment. So you sketch the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1450.95,"endTime":1453.83,"body":"process, how you how it's meant"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1450.95,"endTime":1453.83,"body":"to work, and then the space to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1453.83,"endTime":1457.73,"body":"kind of add notes, sketches?"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1453.83,"endTime":1457.73,"body":"About what how did it actually"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1457.73,"endTime":1462.98,"body":"work, you know, and, and to use"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1457.73,"endTime":1462.98,"body":"that as a, as a way of exploring"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1462.98,"endTime":1467.3,"body":"and questioning further, rather"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1462.98,"endTime":1467.3,"body":"than just well, I've done that,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1467.33,"endTime":1468.14,"body":"and I'm moving on."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1468.35,"endTime":1472.85,"body":"Yeah. And I think"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1468.35,"endTime":1472.85,"body":"drawing out some advantages of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1474.41,"endTime":1481.22,"body":"the photo in that. The"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1474.41,"endTime":1481.22,"body":"photography is brilliant, and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1481.22,"endTime":1484.34,"body":"it's great. And if you can do it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1481.22,"endTime":1484.34,"body":"fine. But I think one of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1484.34,"endTime":1487.58,"body":"issues I have with it is it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1484.34,"endTime":1487.58,"body":"needs you to get the cameras"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1487.58,"endTime":1491.03,"body":"out. You've got to take the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1487.58,"endTime":1491.03,"body":"photos, everybody has to have"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1491.03,"endTime":1493.97,"body":"access to the photos, they've"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1491.03,"endTime":1493.97,"body":"got to work they've got to be"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1493.97,"endTime":1497.57,"body":"charged or then you've got to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1493.97,"endTime":1497.57,"body":"print it out and stick it in"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1497.57,"endTime":1502.31,"body":"their books and this is that's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1497.57,"endTime":1502.31,"body":"time consuming. When. And the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1502.31,"endTime":1506.24,"body":"other benefit to actually"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1502.31,"endTime":1506.24,"body":"drawing it is embodied"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1506.24,"endTime":1511.82,"body":"cognition, the idea that the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1506.24,"endTime":1511.82,"body":"physical act of actually drawing"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1511.82,"endTime":1519.5,"body":"it, not only strengthens it in"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1511.82,"endTime":1519.5,"body":"your mind, but it, it, it, it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1519.5,"endTime":1523.88,"body":"makes a journey from your brain"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1519.5,"endTime":1523.88,"body":"to it to a certain surface, it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1523.88,"endTime":1527.72,"body":"takes the thought out of your"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1523.88,"endTime":1527.72,"body":"brain and onto a surface."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1527.78,"endTime":1529.13,"body":"externalising it,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1529.58,"endTime":1531.05,"body":"and I think I'm"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1529.58,"endTime":1531.05,"body":"going to interrupt you, because"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1531.05,"endTime":1533.87,"body":"I'm kind of waving my arms and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1531.05,"endTime":1533.87,"body":"excitement here, which people"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1533.87,"endTime":1538.4,"body":"can't see, obviously. But I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1533.87,"endTime":1538.4,"body":"think that that body learning"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1538.46,"endTime":1544.04,"body":"the use of the body, as as part"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1538.46,"endTime":1544.04,"body":"of how we learn, there's been so"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1544.04,"endTime":1548.09,"body":"much of a move, that, that all"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1544.04,"endTime":1548.09,"body":"of learning is in the head, you"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1548.09,"endTime":1553.1,"body":"know, I think therefore I am."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1548.09,"endTime":1553.1,"body":"You know, the cognition is only"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1553.1,"endTime":1557.48,"body":"in the brain, but actually, it"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1553.1,"endTime":1557.48,"body":"involves the body. And it"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1557.48,"endTime":1560.54,"body":"involves the body, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1557.48,"endTime":1560.54,"body":"we talk about designers who can"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1560.54,"endTime":1563.87,"body":"see, and Eddie talks about this"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1560.54,"endTime":1563.87,"body":"designers who can see, look at"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1563.87,"endTime":1568.58,"body":"the material and know, what, if"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1563.87,"endTime":1568.58,"body":"they shape it in this way? what"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1568.58,"endTime":1572.3,"body":"that might mean, it might feel"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1568.58,"endTime":1572.3,"body":"like it might look like and and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1572.3,"endTime":1575.51,"body":"that you can't explain that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1572.3,"endTime":1575.51,"body":"through writing it you that's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1575.51,"endTime":1578.39,"body":"come through the use of your"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1575.51,"endTime":1578.39,"body":"body? And yeah, and I think"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1578.39,"endTime":1581.78,"body":"you're absolutely right. And"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1578.39,"endTime":1581.78,"body":"this part of this way of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1581.78,"endTime":1585.59,"body":"learning, embodied learning, has"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1581.78,"endTime":1585.59,"body":"been sort of cast aside in this"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1585.59,"endTime":1589.13,"body":"focus on knowledge that has to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1585.59,"endTime":1589.13,"body":"be written down in a textbook."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1589.55,"endTime":1594.35,"body":"Yeah, rather than involving the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1589.55,"endTime":1594.35,"body":"body. And there's always been a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1594.35,"endTime":1597.83,"body":"rejection, I feel in the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1594.35,"endTime":1597.83,"body":"curriculum, if you look at the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1597.83,"endTime":1601.82,"body":"back subjects in England, none"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1597.83,"endTime":1601.82,"body":"of those, sorry, if you're a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1601.82,"endTime":1605.24,"body":"historian or a geographer, and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1601.82,"endTime":1605.24,"body":"you're listening, they are"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1605.48,"endTime":1610.22,"body":"primarily cognitive brain"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1605.48,"endTime":1610.22,"body":"subjects, and all the subjects"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1610.22,"endTime":1613.46,"body":"that involve the body for"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1610.22,"endTime":1613.46,"body":"outside of the EU back. And I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1613.46,"endTime":1617.87,"body":"think that in itself is"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1613.46,"endTime":1617.87,"body":"fascinating about what does that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1617.87,"endTime":1620.96,"body":"mean about the people in, in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1617.87,"endTime":1620.96,"body":"charge of policy around"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1620.96,"endTime":1624.74,"body":"curriculum? Are they frightened"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1620.96,"endTime":1624.74,"body":"of frightened of their bodies of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1624.74,"endTime":1628.04,"body":"using their bodies, and that's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1624.74,"endTime":1628.04,"body":"one of the beauties isn't of art"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1628.04,"endTime":1632.06,"body":"and design and design and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1628.04,"endTime":1632.06,"body":"technology, and music, and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1632.06,"endTime":1635.66,"body":"sports. And PE, you know, let's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1632.06,"endTime":1635.66,"body":"talk to sport because it implies"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1635.66,"endTime":1639.56,"body":"a competition. All of those"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1635.66,"endTime":1639.56,"body":"things that involve the body"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1639.86,"endTime":1643.43,"body":"have kind of been put outside of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1639.86,"endTime":1643.43,"body":"us as if we're fearful, when in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1643.43,"endTime":1649.04,"body":"actual fact, they're the spaces"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1643.43,"endTime":1649.04,"body":"where we facilitate students"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1649.04,"endTime":1654.8,"body":"taking risks learning from the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1649.04,"endTime":1654.8,"body":"act of doing something, but it"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1654.8,"endTime":1659.66,"body":"doesn't have to be perfect."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1654.8,"endTime":1659.66,"body":"Sorry, it. Because I really, I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1659.66,"endTime":1662.63,"body":"really, it's the kind of thing,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1659.66,"endTime":1662.63,"body":"that's my goal to really"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1662.66,"endTime":1665.87,"body":"Yeah, and it's a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1662.66,"endTime":1665.87,"body":"huge thing at the moment. I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1665.87,"endTime":1670.97,"body":"don't know if you know, the work"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1665.87,"endTime":1670.97,"body":"of Oliver corviglia. Orly? Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1671.0,"endTime":1675.26,"body":"he's a great kind of thing,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1671.0,"endTime":1675.26,"body":"theory thinker. He's a great guy"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1675.26,"endTime":1680.51,"body":"to follow on Twitter, Twitter."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1675.26,"endTime":1680.51,"body":"And he talks a lot about"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1680.51,"endTime":1684.56,"body":"embodied learning. And he's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1680.51,"endTime":1684.56,"body":"taught me a lot just through his"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1684.56,"endTime":1688.31,"body":"tweets. And he put me on to a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1684.56,"endTime":1688.31,"body":"book by a lady called Annie"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1688.31,"endTime":1695.72,"body":"Murphy, Paul, called think it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1688.31,"endTime":1695.72,"body":"called embodied thinking, or the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1695.72,"endTime":1699.23,"body":"mindful learn it was just trying"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1695.72,"endTime":1699.23,"body":"to see if I could find it before"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1699.23,"endTime":1701.9,"body":"we went. But if you if you"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1699.23,"endTime":1701.9,"body":"Google, Annie, Murphy, Paul's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1701.9,"endTime":1702.68,"body":"work anywhere."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1703.25,"endTime":1704.81,"body":"And we'll put a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1703.25,"endTime":1704.81,"body":"link to that in the show notes,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1704.81,"endTime":1706.7,"body":"there's been a few things that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1704.81,"endTime":1706.7,"body":"you've mentioned that I've made"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1706.7,"endTime":1708.95,"body":"notes of that we need to put"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1706.7,"endTime":1708.95,"body":"links in the show notes to that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1708.95,"endTime":1711.95,"body":"people can follow up and read"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1708.95,"endTime":1711.95,"body":"more and find out more from what"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1711.95,"endTime":1712.49,"body":"you've said,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1712.52,"endTime":1715.16,"body":"Yeah, and this book"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1712.52,"endTime":1715.16,"body":"is eggs, honestly, you would"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1715.16,"endTime":1718.31,"body":"love it, it is exactly what"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1715.16,"endTime":1718.31,"body":"you've just been saying. And she"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1718.31,"endTime":1723.32,"body":"talks about the fact that our"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1718.31,"endTime":1723.32,"body":"brain is just part of a bigger"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1723.32,"endTime":1727.58,"body":"organism, but she, she talks"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1723.32,"endTime":1727.58,"body":"about that the fact that our"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1727.58,"endTime":1734.0,"body":"bodies don't end at the edge of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1727.58,"endTime":1734.0,"body":"our skin, that that it's it's we"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1734.15,"endTime":1738.83,"body":"interact with the world that we"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1734.15,"endTime":1738.83,"body":"can't exist unless we touch"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1738.83,"endTime":1743.84,"body":"things if we interact with them"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1738.83,"endTime":1743.84,"body":"and that we learn through the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1743.84,"endTime":1748.88,"body":"physical responses we may to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1743.84,"endTime":1748.88,"body":"everything we touch, see do"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1748.88,"endTime":1753.56,"body":"sense and it's lovely, it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1748.88,"endTime":1753.56,"body":"honestly it's a joyful thing to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1753.56,"endTime":1761.39,"body":"kind of be reminded of how"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1753.56,"endTime":1761.39,"body":"important that is. And embodied"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1761.39,"endTime":1765.05,"body":"thinking I think, is just huge"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1761.39,"endTime":1765.05,"body":"and, and Oliver talks a lot"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1765.05,"endTime":1768.68,"body":"about gestures about how when"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1765.05,"endTime":1768.68,"body":"we're describing something as a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1768.68,"endTime":1774.53,"body":"teacher, we use our hands we use"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1768.68,"endTime":1774.53,"body":"our, our physicality to, to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1774.59,"endTime":1782.09,"body":"talk. So it Yeah, and I think"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1774.59,"endTime":1782.09,"body":"drawing is is that really"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1782.09,"endTime":1789.98,"body":"because your ideas in your head"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1782.09,"endTime":1789.98,"body":"and what they translate as onto"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1789.98,"endTime":1795.53,"body":"a drawing on the surface and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1789.98,"endTime":1795.53,"body":"never the same? It's always like"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1796.13,"endTime":1800.18,"body":"any thought I have in my head."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1796.13,"endTime":1800.18,"body":"It almost seems better in My"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1800.18,"endTime":1805.64,"body":"head than it was on the paper, I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1800.18,"endTime":1805.64,"body":"can relate to that. And, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1805.64,"endTime":1810.14,"body":"someone who has a lot of skill"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1805.64,"endTime":1810.14,"body":"in terms of drawing. So even I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1810.14,"endTime":1815.57,"body":"think that it never quite"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1810.14,"endTime":1815.57,"body":"matches up. But that's the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1815.57,"endTime":1818.84,"body":"beauty of it. And that's,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1815.57,"endTime":1818.84,"body":"that's, you have to say that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1818.84,"endTime":1821.12,"body":"your look, it doesn't kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1818.84,"endTime":1821.12,"body":"matter doesn't matter that it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1821.12,"endTime":1826.55,"body":"a scruffy drawing, it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1821.12,"endTime":1826.55,"body":"matter that it's just a squiggly"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1826.55,"endTime":1830.66,"body":"line. Because I think often"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1826.55,"endTime":1830.66,"body":"we're drawing movements, we're"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1830.66,"endTime":1834.17,"body":"drawing directions, we're"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1830.66,"endTime":1834.17,"body":"drawing instructions of well,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1834.2,"endTime":1838.22,"body":"this is going to go like that."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1834.2,"endTime":1838.22,"body":"And you're only going to draw"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1838.22,"endTime":1841.82,"body":"that as a wiggly line, which, I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1838.22,"endTime":1841.82,"body":"guess what I'm just trying to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1841.82,"endTime":1848.27,"body":"say is that embody and cognition"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1841.82,"endTime":1848.27,"body":"isn't making pick, pick, pick"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1848.33,"endTime":1853.73,"body":"pictures that look nice all the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1848.33,"endTime":1853.73,"body":"time. It's describing a series"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1853.73,"endTime":1856.97,"body":"of often intangible things."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1857.69,"endTime":1859.52,"body":"And, and is, and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1857.69,"endTime":1859.52,"body":"is really, I think, where the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1859.52,"endTime":1861.5,"body":"way you're talking about it is"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1859.52,"endTime":1861.5,"body":"something that's for the, for"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1861.5,"endTime":1863.81,"body":"the person who's drawing it not"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1861.5,"endTime":1863.81,"body":"for public show."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1864.32,"endTime":1868.91,"body":"Yeah. And also, if"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1864.32,"endTime":1868.91,"body":"you even just as a designer, as"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1868.91,"endTime":1873.02,"body":"a tea as a teacher of design it,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1868.91,"endTime":1873.02,"body":"the thing that that things are"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1873.23,"endTime":1878.72,"body":"always always excite me more"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1873.23,"endTime":1878.72,"body":"than the finished thing is the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1878.72,"endTime":1882.89,"body":"working kind of drawings that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1878.72,"endTime":1882.89,"body":"led to it. And I've got a whole"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1882.89,"endTime":1888.29,"body":"kind of collection of drawings"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1882.89,"endTime":1888.29,"body":"of the kind of mini when it was"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1888.29,"endTime":1894.26,"body":"being drawn. If you look at the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1888.29,"endTime":1894.26,"body":"drawings of the shots, that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1894.26,"endTime":1898.4,"body":"Renzo Piano audit, and on it,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1894.26,"endTime":1898.4,"body":"there's something in"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1898.4,"endTime":1902.9,"body":"architecture called nup, napkin"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1898.4,"endTime":1902.9,"body":"Earth. I don't know if you kind"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1902.9,"endTime":1906.35,"body":"of know that, but now that when"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1902.9,"endTime":1906.35,"body":"I can kind of guess where you go"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1906.35,"endTime":1909.77,"body":"with it, yeah. And you can kind"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1906.35,"endTime":1909.77,"body":"of Google it, and it's a thing,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1909.83,"endTime":1915.05,"body":"and you'll find lots of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1909.83,"endTime":1915.05,"body":"buildings, and they were drawn"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1915.05,"endTime":1920.06,"body":"on napkins, and kind of be a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1915.05,"endTime":1920.06,"body":"mutts in meeting places. Because"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1920.06,"endTime":1923.03,"body":"that's where the discussion was"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1920.06,"endTime":1923.03,"body":"taking place. And they drew it."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1923.03,"endTime":1926.99,"body":"That's the first formalised"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1923.03,"endTime":1926.99,"body":"ideas and the napkin drawings of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1926.99,"endTime":1931.46,"body":"the shard are just amazing. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1926.99,"endTime":1931.46,"body":"that's what excites me. And it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1931.46,"endTime":1937.91,"body":"not, that's not about drawing a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1931.46,"endTime":1937.91,"body":"beautiful presented drawing."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1937.91,"endTime":1941.57,"body":"That's just your thoughts, isn't"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1937.91,"endTime":1941.57,"body":"it? And that, to me, is what"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":1941.57,"endTime":1942.74,"body":"it's all about. Really?"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1943.46,"endTime":1946.07,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1943.46,"endTime":1946.07,"body":"Absolutely. And that but that is"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1946.07,"endTime":1950.45,"body":"so hard, isn't it for you? No,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1946.07,"endTime":1950.45,"body":"no that that dainty teachers"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1950.45,"endTime":1955.22,"body":"work really hard to communicate"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1950.45,"endTime":1955.22,"body":"that to children to explain over"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1955.22,"endTime":1958.19,"body":"and over again, that, that when"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1955.22,"endTime":1958.19,"body":"you're doing these types of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1958.19,"endTime":1961.7,"body":"sketches, and this drawing, it's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1958.19,"endTime":1961.7,"body":"not about perfection, it's not"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1961.7,"endTime":1965.42,"body":"about it, it mean, it's about"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1961.7,"endTime":1965.42,"body":"getting the things out of your"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1965.42,"endTime":1969.08,"body":"head, and down, so you can start"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1965.42,"endTime":1969.08,"body":"to play with them in front of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1969.08,"endTime":1972.83,"body":"you, rather than keeping it"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1969.08,"endTime":1972.83,"body":"contained in your head. But"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1972.83,"endTime":1976.55,"body":"there's this culture of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1972.83,"endTime":1976.55,"body":"perfection and things be neat."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1976.94,"endTime":1979.85,"body":"And and also, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1976.94,"endTime":1979.85,"body":"unfortunately, the assessment"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1979.85,"endTime":1985.28,"body":"tail wagging the learning dog,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1979.85,"endTime":1985.28,"body":"and it happens for all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1985.28,"endTime":1988.28,"body":"reasons. Again, we can't"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1985.28,"endTime":1988.28,"body":"criticise examples and teachers"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1988.28,"endTime":1992.87,"body":"and the system around that. But"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1988.28,"endTime":1992.87,"body":"it's about finding, finding that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1992.87,"endTime":1996.83,"body":"balance. And it's about teachers"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1992.87,"endTime":1996.83,"body":"having that confidence to take"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1997.46,"endTime":2003.22,"body":"those risks about it in a small"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":1997.46,"endTime":2003.22,"body":"and measured way. And I don't"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2003.22,"endTime":2006.85,"body":"mean safe as dictating or"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2003.22,"endTime":2006.85,"body":"outlining what the children"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2006.85,"endTime":2010.81,"body":"should do, but in a way that is,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2006.85,"endTime":2010.81,"body":"it's kind of got some gentle"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2010.81,"endTime":2011.98,"body":"parameters around it."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2012.04,"endTime":2015.16,"body":"Yes, yeah, there's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2012.04,"endTime":2015.16,"body":"got to be criteria on there. I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2015.16,"endTime":2020.86,"body":"mean, I've got no issues with"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2015.16,"endTime":2020.86,"body":"that. Everything's got to go on"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2020.86,"endTime":2024.64,"body":"the journey from that rough"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2020.86,"endTime":2024.64,"body":"initial idea to a finished"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2024.64,"endTime":2032.62,"body":"piece. I just guessed that, if"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2024.64,"endTime":2032.62,"body":"that's somewhere the criteria"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2032.62,"endTime":2038.92,"body":"has to stipulate and make space"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2032.62,"endTime":2038.92,"body":"for that. And if it doesn't, and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2038.92,"endTime":2042.55,"body":"it doesn't express it, and it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2038.92,"endTime":2042.55,"body":"doesn't stated that we are not"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2042.55,"endTime":2045.37,"body":"looking for presentation, we are"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2042.55,"endTime":2045.37,"body":"looking for the quality of your"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2045.37,"endTime":2051.73,"body":"thinking and your ideas, etc,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2045.37,"endTime":2051.73,"body":"then it isn't going to be"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2052.27,"endTime":2056.56,"body":"manifest in the work that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2052.27,"endTime":2056.56,"body":"students and teachers do really."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2056.59,"endTime":2060.88,"body":"So I think it has to be"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2056.59,"endTime":2060.88,"body":"stipulated. I do a lovely"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2060.94,"endTime":2064.96,"body":"exercise on my training courses"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2060.94,"endTime":2064.96,"body":"where I get teachers to draw a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2064.96,"endTime":2070.27,"body":"circle, a circle, a circle, just"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2064.96,"endTime":2070.27,"body":"a circle on a piece of paper,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2070.27,"endTime":2074.47,"body":"you can all try it. And then I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2070.27,"endTime":2074.47,"body":"say to everybody in the group,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2074.47,"endTime":2077.59,"body":"right, you've drawn a circle."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2074.47,"endTime":2077.59,"body":"What I'd like to do now is to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2077.59,"endTime":2082.15,"body":"transform that into an imagine"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2077.59,"endTime":2082.15,"body":"that if Pick, pick a picture, it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2082.15,"endTime":2085.84,"body":"can be anything. And I said I'm"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2082.15,"endTime":2085.84,"body":"not looking for the quality of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2085.84,"endTime":2090.16,"body":"your drawing skills. I'm looking"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2085.84,"endTime":2090.16,"body":"for your ideas as to what you"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2090.16,"endTime":2093.73,"body":"can do with it. And we get them"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2090.16,"endTime":2093.73,"body":"all together and we Issei what"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2094.03,"endTime":2098.08,"body":"not it some people are just"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2094.03,"endTime":2098.08,"body":"making it was Sun circle. It's a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2098.08,"endTime":2101.74,"body":"sun it's a football. It's And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2098.08,"endTime":2101.74,"body":"then you get people who are"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2101.74,"endTime":2105.46,"body":"taken into amazing ideas, who"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2101.74,"endTime":2105.46,"body":"haven't necessarily got a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2105.46,"endTime":2108.34,"body":"brilliant drawing ability, but"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2105.46,"endTime":2108.34,"body":"they've got this Amar"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2108.37,"endTime":2114.01,"body":"imagination. And we don't do"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2108.37,"endTime":2114.01,"body":"that enough in art, let alone di"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2114.01,"endTime":2123.1,"body":"t, we don't get children to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2114.01,"endTime":2123.1,"body":"imagine. And to, to dream,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2123.1,"endTime":2128.92,"body":"really to think to invent. The"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2123.1,"endTime":2128.92,"body":"little inventors website is just"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2129.07,"endTime":2135.37,"body":"an amazing DT resource. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2129.07,"endTime":2135.37,"body":"if I was teaching DT again, that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2135.37,"endTime":2141.46,"body":"would be on my list of a project"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2135.37,"endTime":2141.46,"body":"every single year, I would do"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2142.75,"endTime":2147.61,"body":"something based on the little"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2142.75,"endTime":2147.61,"body":"inventors. In my first book, I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2147.61,"endTime":2150.46,"body":"did you know, where they had to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2147.61,"endTime":2150.46,"body":"design a cloud catcher and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2150.46,"endTime":2156.13,"body":"things like that. And, and so"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2150.46,"endTime":2156.13,"body":"yeah, I think we have to make"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2156.13,"endTime":2162.73,"body":"design, dream, the impossible,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2156.13,"endTime":2162.73,"body":"because the way I look at it,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2163.09,"endTime":2171.49,"body":"the entire future of our planet"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2163.09,"endTime":2171.49,"body":"is dependent on good design. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2171.49,"endTime":2176.56,"body":"this is important is that we're"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2171.49,"endTime":2176.56,"body":"not, and it's been crushed off"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2176.59,"endTime":2181.06,"body":"the national curriculum, at"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2176.59,"endTime":2181.06,"body":"sorry, at exam levels, it's been"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2181.06,"endTime":2185.23,"body":"squashed. And yet, it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2181.06,"endTime":2185.23,"body":"fundamentally designs, the most"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2185.23,"endTime":2189.34,"body":"important thing we need to do,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2185.23,"endTime":2189.34,"body":"and all of our futures rests on"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2189.34,"endTime":2189.49,"body":"it."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2190.0,"endTime":2191.89,"body":"Yeah, I absolutely"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2190.0,"endTime":2191.89,"body":"agree. And it's something that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2191.89,"endTime":2194.02,"body":"we keep coming back to in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2191.89,"endTime":2194.02,"body":"different conversations on the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2194.02,"endTime":2198.22,"body":"podcast about the centrality of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2194.02,"endTime":2198.22,"body":"design. And then why as we talk"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2198.22,"endTime":2201.1,"body":"about design, thinking, David"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2198.22,"endTime":2201.1,"body":"Spangler came on quite a while"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2201.1,"endTime":2203.83,"body":"back talking about design"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2201.1,"endTime":2203.83,"body":"thinking and what makes design"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2203.83,"endTime":2210.16,"body":"thinking different in d\u0026d than"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2203.83,"endTime":2210.16,"body":"it is in in other subjects. It"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2210.16,"endTime":2212.77,"body":"is, for us, I think, condemned"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2210.16,"endTime":2212.77,"body":"to about coming towards a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2212.77,"endTime":2220.87,"body":"resolution. Rather than doing"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2212.77,"endTime":2220.87,"body":"the work, it is the day my"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2220.87,"endTime":2223.15,"body":"mind's gone blank and Mickey"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2220.87,"endTime":2223.15,"body":"gone with tell me what the word"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2223.15,"endTime":2226.96,"body":"is. And rather than convergent"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2223.15,"endTime":2226.96,"body":"divergent Oh, yeah. You know, so"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2226.96,"endTime":2229.78,"body":"what happens is, in a lot of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2226.96,"endTime":2229.78,"body":"subjects, they use design"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2229.78,"endTime":2233.77,"body":"thinking for to be divergent to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2229.78,"endTime":2233.77,"body":"come up with lots of ideas. But"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2233.77,"endTime":2240.07,"body":"then what we do in design and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2233.77,"endTime":2240.07,"body":"technology, and design, is we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2240.07,"endTime":2243.37,"body":"kind of tweaked a little bit."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2240.07,"endTime":2243.37,"body":"But we then start to convert"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2243.37,"endTime":2247.0,"body":"those ideas to lead to a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2243.37,"endTime":2247.0,"body":"resolution, we do kind of quite"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2247.0,"endTime":2249.67,"body":"a lot of that divergent"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2247.0,"endTime":2249.67,"body":"convergent, it's kind of quite"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2249.67,"endTime":2249.91,"body":"similar."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2250.0,"endTime":2251.95,"body":"And that's really"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2250.0,"endTime":2251.95,"body":"important, isn't it. And that's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2251.95,"endTime":2255.43,"body":"what gets me annoyed about"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2251.95,"endTime":2255.43,"body":"people who criticise creativity"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2255.43,"endTime":2260.05,"body":"that they don't understand that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2255.43,"endTime":2260.05,"body":"creativity isn't just going off"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2260.05,"endTime":2265.75,"body":"on a tangent, doing anything you"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2260.05,"endTime":2265.75,"body":"like in a non disciplined"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2265.81,"endTime":2271.3,"body":"manner, creativity is having"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2265.81,"endTime":2271.3,"body":"those wild, elaborate thoughts"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2271.36,"endTime":2274.99,"body":"and then refining them and horn"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2271.36,"endTime":2274.99,"body":"in them to make them into a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2274.99,"endTime":2276.34,"body":"practical, purposeful."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2277.45,"endTime":2279.43,"body":"That's what we're"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2277.45,"endTime":2279.43,"body":"doing our subjects and that's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2279.43,"endTime":2285.1,"body":"where you're drawing, for"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2279.43,"endTime":2285.1,"body":"learning. In, in a subject where"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2285.1,"endTime":2288.85,"body":"things are being realised into a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2285.1,"endTime":2288.85,"body":"resolution, whether it's three"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2288.85,"endTime":2293.74,"body":"dimensional, two dimensional"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2288.85,"endTime":2293.74,"body":"digital system or process, those"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2293.77,"endTime":2298.15,"body":"sketches of thinking, and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2293.77,"endTime":2298.15,"body":"learning and reflecting and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2298.15,"endTime":2302.17,"body":"evaluating can be can be so"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2298.15,"endTime":2302.17,"body":"important and, and giving"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2302.2,"endTime":2306.55,"body":"students space to do that. Not"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2302.2,"endTime":2306.55,"body":"every lesson not all the time,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2306.55,"endTime":2311.05,"body":"not in every project, but in in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2306.55,"endTime":2311.05,"body":"the right spaces. And D and T"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2311.05,"endTime":2315.1,"body":"teachers are expert that these"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2311.05,"endTime":2315.1,"body":"are identifying when we're going"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2315.1,"endTime":2319.87,"body":"to develop this way of thinking,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2315.1,"endTime":2319.87,"body":"reflecting, communicating, and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2319.87,"endTime":2322.54,"body":"when are we going to do this"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2319.87,"endTime":2322.54,"body":"type in which part of our"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2322.54,"endTime":2327.79,"body":"planning so we can build up"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2322.54,"endTime":2327.79,"body":"their autonomy, as you know,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2327.85,"endTime":2332.23,"body":"design thinkers and their and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2327.85,"endTime":2332.23,"body":"resolve as I can I use the word"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2332.23,"endTime":2335.47,"body":"resolve rather than solutions"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2332.23,"endTime":2335.47,"body":"these days because we're only"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2335.71,"endTime":2337.69,"body":"going to a resolution until"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2335.71,"endTime":2337.69,"body":"somebody comes along and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2337.69,"endTime":2338.41,"body":"improves it."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2338.68,"endTime":2344.89,"body":"Exactly. But I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2338.68,"endTime":2344.89,"body":"mean, you need the not not not"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2344.89,"endTime":2353.35,"body":"knowledge. You need all of that."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2344.89,"endTime":2353.35,"body":"And I wouldn't, I wouldn't want"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2353.35,"endTime":2358.84,"body":"to minimise that in any way. But"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2353.35,"endTime":2358.84,"body":"you also need creativity and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2358.84,"endTime":2364.6,"body":"there's this misconception that"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2358.84,"endTime":2364.6,"body":"creativity comes after learning"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2364.6,"endTime":2371.05,"body":"the not not not knowledge. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2364.6,"endTime":2371.05,"body":"prominent educationalists have"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2371.05,"endTime":2376.06,"body":"said, you can only think about"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2371.05,"endTime":2376.06,"body":"things you know, you can only"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2376.78,"endTime":2380.56,"body":"you can only make something from"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2376.78,"endTime":2380.56,"body":"the kind of knowledge you have,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2380.59,"endTime":2385.6,"body":"therefore, you need the kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2380.59,"endTime":2385.6,"body":"knowledge first, but that's not"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2385.6,"endTime":2390.16,"body":"the way it's not it might seem"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2385.6,"endTime":2390.16,"body":"like that in your head, but"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2390.16,"endTime":2395.71,"body":"that's not the way it works. You"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2390.16,"endTime":2395.71,"body":"need absolutely to learn things,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2395.92,"endTime":2399.97,"body":"and then creatively apply them"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2395.92,"endTime":2399.97,"body":"and you do that when you're"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2400.0,"endTime":2403.87,"body":"Five, you do it when you're"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2400.0,"endTime":2403.87,"body":"four, you don't do it when"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2404.35,"endTime":2408.49,"body":"you're finished school and you"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2404.35,"endTime":2408.49,"body":"got a bank full of kind of not"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2408.52,"endTime":2411.13,"body":"knowledge, like, Oh, I'm"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2408.52,"endTime":2411.13,"body":"suddenly going to be able to do"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2411.13,"endTime":2416.89,"body":"things with it. Because the very"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2411.13,"endTime":2416.89,"body":"process of doing things with the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2416.89,"endTime":2419.5,"body":"kind of knowledge you've got"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2416.89,"endTime":2419.5,"body":"needs to be taught, it needs to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2419.5,"endTime":2424.12,"body":"be taught, you need to be you"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2419.5,"endTime":2424.12,"body":"dTT is an art teachers are"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2424.12,"endTime":2429.16,"body":"teaching children how to think"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2424.12,"endTime":2429.16,"body":"critically, critically, they're"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2429.16,"endTime":2433.42,"body":"teaching them how to be"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2429.16,"endTime":2433.42,"body":"divergent, then convergent."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2433.93,"endTime":2440.05,"body":"They're teaching them how to"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2433.93,"endTime":2440.05,"body":"refine. And the two things like"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2440.05,"endTime":2444.52,"body":"a hand in glove, they're not"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2440.05,"endTime":2444.52,"body":"separate entities, really. And I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2444.52,"endTime":2447.46,"body":"think that's what a lot of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2444.52,"endTime":2447.46,"body":"people are missing at the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2447.46,"endTime":2451.12,"body":"moment. And it's, it's too"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2447.46,"endTime":2451.12,"body":"painful to kind of see the where"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2451.33,"endTime":2451.81,"body":"it's happening."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2451.84,"endTime":2453.55,"body":"And I think in our"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2451.84,"endTime":2453.55,"body":"subject, and I've talked about"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2453.55,"endTime":2456.88,"body":"this, previously, we've talked"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2453.55,"endTime":2456.88,"body":"about DMT capability, those"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2456.88,"endTime":2460.24,"body":"things come hand in hand in our"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2456.88,"endTime":2460.24,"body":"subjects, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2460.24,"endTime":2463.48,"body":"knowledge and the use of the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2460.24,"endTime":2463.48,"body":"knowledge and the creation of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2463.48,"endTime":2468.46,"body":"the knowledge, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2463.48,"endTime":2468.46,"body":"enabling children to make those"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2468.46,"endTime":2470.89,"body":"decisions about how they use"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2468.46,"endTime":2470.89,"body":"what they know. And but then"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2470.89,"endTime":2472.99,"body":"that comes down to good"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2470.89,"endTime":2472.99,"body":"curriculum planning about"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2472.99,"endTime":2477.22,"body":"thinking, the teacher needs to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2472.99,"endTime":2477.22,"body":"be managing that over, over a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2477.22,"endTime":2482.41,"body":"longer period to allow their"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2477.22,"endTime":2482.41,"body":"capability to grow. You can't do"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2482.41,"endTime":2486.82,"body":"it in blocks, I don't think in"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2482.41,"endTime":2486.82,"body":"in our design subjects, you have"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2486.82,"endTime":2490.6,"body":"to manage it. And I don't want"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2486.82,"endTime":2490.6,"body":"to use the word scaffold,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2490.6,"endTime":2495.37,"body":"because as my friend Sarah"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2490.6,"endTime":2495.37,"body":"constantly reminds me is"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2496.57,"endTime":2500.2,"body":"scaffolding is put there as"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2496.57,"endTime":2500.2,"body":"things are built, and then it's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2500.2,"endTime":2504.73,"body":"taken down to the building can"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2500.2,"endTime":2504.73,"body":"stand, right. And if we keep"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2504.73,"endTime":2507.25,"body":"talking about scaffolding, it"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2504.73,"endTime":2507.25,"body":"implies that the scaffolding"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2507.25,"endTime":2512.74,"body":"stays in place in terms of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2507.25,"endTime":2512.74,"body":"learning. Right. So again, good"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2512.74,"endTime":2517.33,"body":"curriculum planning, I think"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2512.74,"endTime":2517.33,"body":"thinks about how we, when we do"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2517.33,"endTime":2520.81,"body":"put up the scaffolding, and when"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2517.33,"endTime":2520.81,"body":"we take it down to help the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2520.81,"endTime":2524.44,"body":"building standard see the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2520.81,"endTime":2524.44,"body":"building standard? I'm not sure"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2524.44,"endTime":2526.81,"body":"where I'm going with that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2524.44,"endTime":2526.81,"body":"analogy. But yeah, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2527.41,"endTime":2531.37,"body":"it's got really"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2527.41,"endTime":2531.37,"body":"good. I mean, the way I was"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2531.37,"endTime":2537.25,"body":"thinking of it, there was when I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2531.37,"endTime":2537.25,"body":"was at school in 1970, something"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2537.25,"endTime":2541.99,"body":"or other I in secondary school,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2537.25,"endTime":2541.99,"body":"I was taught how to make a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2541.99,"endTime":2546.55,"body":"mortise and tenon joint. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2541.99,"endTime":2546.55,"body":"that was a big thing. We did"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2546.58,"endTime":2551.29,"body":"woodwork then and I was taught"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2546.58,"endTime":2551.29,"body":"how to make this joint. And I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2551.29,"endTime":2558.73,"body":"was rubbish I bought. My point"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2551.29,"endTime":2558.73,"body":"is that you could teach somebody"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2558.73,"endTime":2562.06,"body":"how to make one of them joints."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2558.73,"endTime":2562.06,"body":"And that's the kind of knowledge"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2562.06,"endTime":2566.68,"body":"aspect, but the creative"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2562.06,"endTime":2566.68,"body":"application for it would be,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2566.83,"endTime":2571.99,"body":"what would you kind of use it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2566.83,"endTime":2571.99,"body":"for? What what could you use it"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2571.99,"endTime":2576.64,"body":"for exactly what is it used for?"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2571.99,"endTime":2576.64,"body":"Where do we use this joint in"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2576.64,"endTime":2580.24,"body":"chairs or whatever. But what"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2576.64,"endTime":2580.24,"body":"else could you do with it?"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2581.26,"endTime":2583.48,"body":"But it's also"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2581.26,"endTime":2583.48,"body":"asking the question about why do"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2583.48,"endTime":2584.17,"body":"we use it there?"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2584.38,"endTime":2585.58,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2585.61,"endTime":2588.73,"body":"Why that one? Not"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2585.61,"endTime":2588.73,"body":"that one? Yeah, yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2588.79,"endTime":2592.03,"body":"Yeah, definitely no. And then"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2588.79,"endTime":2592.03,"body":"what we get caught up in, as you"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2592.03,"endTime":2594.22,"body":"say, you know, I wasn't very"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2592.03,"endTime":2594.22,"body":"good at doing a mortise and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2594.22,"endTime":2598.81,"body":"tenon joint is, we get caught up"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2594.22,"endTime":2598.81,"body":"in the craft of the joints"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2598.81,"endTime":2603.88,"body":"rather than thinking the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2598.81,"endTime":2603.88,"body":"application and the structure of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2603.88,"endTime":2606.58,"body":"the joint or where it's used and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2603.88,"endTime":2606.58,"body":"what the possibilities are with"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2606.58,"endTime":2607.0,"body":"it."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2607.03,"endTime":2609.1,"body":"Yeah, for sure."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2607.03,"endTime":2609.1,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2610.51,"endTime":2612.73,"body":"Good. All right."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2610.51,"endTime":2612.73,"body":"Well, we've kind of really come"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2613.09,"endTime":2615.73,"body":"out here, and I'm looking at the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2613.09,"endTime":2615.73,"body":"time we've been, we've been"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2615.79,"endTime":2620.5,"body":"recording for about 42 to 43"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2615.79,"endTime":2620.5,"body":"minutes. So and I've made some"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2620.5,"endTime":2622.3,"body":"notes here about things that I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2620.5,"endTime":2622.3,"body":"think I think I'm gonna have to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2622.3,"endTime":2627.4,"body":"get you back on the podcast,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2622.3,"endTime":2627.4,"body":"that's gonna talk about embodied"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2627.4,"endTime":2629.65,"body":"learning. And and there's a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2627.4,"endTime":2629.65,"body":"couple of other people who do"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2629.65,"endTime":2633.37,"body":"some work around this. And so we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2629.65,"endTime":2633.37,"body":"may think about setting up a"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2633.37,"endTime":2635.5,"body":"podcast where there's a few"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2633.37,"endTime":2635.5,"body":"people in which we're talking"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2635.5,"endTime":2637.84,"body":"about embodied learning and what"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2635.5,"endTime":2637.84,"body":"that means in design and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2637.84,"endTime":2640.12,"body":"technology. And what that looks"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2637.84,"endTime":2640.12,"body":"like."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2640.39,"endTime":2643.63,"body":"There's one thing"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2640.39,"endTime":2643.63,"body":"there's one thing I can't go"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2643.63,"endTime":2646.09,"body":"without telling you about, I"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2643.63,"endTime":2646.09,"body":"don't know if you've heard of a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2646.09,"endTime":2653.38,"body":"podcast called 99 P ai. It's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2646.09,"endTime":2653.38,"body":"called 99%. invisible. Yes, yes,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2653.38,"endTime":2657.01,"body":"I have heard. It's brilliant for"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2653.38,"endTime":2657.01,"body":"any of you kind of listeners out"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2657.07,"endTime":2661.6,"body":"out there as examples of design."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2657.07,"endTime":2661.6,"body":"And that's what it's all about."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2661.6,"endTime":2665.02,"body":"It's all about design in the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2661.6,"endTime":2665.02,"body":"real world to solve issues and"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2665.02,"endTime":2669.25,"body":"to solve problems and Roman"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2665.02,"endTime":2669.25,"body":"mouths is brilliant. And I love"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2669.25,"endTime":2672.61,"body":"it. It's just joyful to kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2669.25,"endTime":2672.61,"body":"listen to and it really teaches"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2672.61,"endTime":2675.79,"body":"us a lot about what design is"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2672.61,"endTime":2675.79,"body":"and what it's for. So"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2676.54,"endTime":2679.6,"body":"I might ask you to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2676.54,"endTime":2679.6,"body":"email me some recommendations of"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2679.6,"endTime":2683.05,"body":"particular episodes that people"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2679.6,"endTime":2683.05,"body":"to listen to, and I'll put some"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2683.05,"endTime":2685.0,"body":"links in the show notes and"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2683.05,"endTime":2685.0,"body":"that'd be that'd be really great"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2685.0,"endTime":2686.02,"body":"that we could follow that up."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2686.05,"endTime":2688.48,"body":"Well, here's one"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2686.05,"endTime":2688.48,"body":"for you then just one that is"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2688.48,"endTime":2692.92,"body":"brilliant. Listen to the one"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2688.48,"endTime":2692.92,"body":"called Batman and the bridge"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2692.92,"endTime":2694.06,"body":"Bill builder."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2696.43,"endTime":2699.97,"body":"Batman and the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2696.43,"endTime":2699.97,"body":"bridge builder, right. Okay. I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2700.0,"endTime":2701.26,"body":"I'm writing that down."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2701.56,"endTime":2703.96,"body":"Brilliant,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2701.56,"endTime":2703.96,"body":"brilliant example of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2703.96,"endTime":2708.46,"body":"unintentional consequences of"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2703.96,"endTime":2708.46,"body":"designing things. Brilliant."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2709.42,"endTime":2711.67,"body":"Right. Okay. So"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2709.42,"endTime":2711.67,"body":"the broadcast, we could talk"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2711.67,"endTime":2716.38,"body":"about unintentional designs."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2711.67,"endTime":2716.38,"body":"Right. Okay, we're"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2716.38,"endTime":2719.95,"body":"gonna stop. Yes, we"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2716.38,"endTime":2719.95,"body":"will. We will I will cut the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2719.95,"endTime":2720.34,"body":"shadow."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2720.97,"endTime":2723.04,"body":"No, no, no, no,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2720.97,"endTime":2723.04,"body":"it's been absolutely great. I"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2723.04,"endTime":2725.05,"body":"just love talking with you."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2723.04,"endTime":2725.05,"body":"People don't know that we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2725.05,"endTime":2728.41,"body":"actually had half an hour"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2725.05,"endTime":2728.41,"body":"before. And during that"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2728.41,"endTime":2731.59,"body":"conversation, I'm thinking we"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2728.41,"endTime":2731.59,"body":"could be recording. Anyway."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2731.62,"endTime":2735.85,"body":"Okay. Anyway. So Paul, can you"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2731.62,"endTime":2735.85,"body":"tell us where people can find"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2735.85,"endTime":2737.32,"body":"your book and where they can"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2735.85,"endTime":2737.32,"body":"find you,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2737.35,"endTime":2739.99,"body":"you can go on my"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2737.35,"endTime":2739.99,"body":"website, which is Paul Kearney,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2739.99,"endTime":2744.7,"body":"arts.com. And if you buy the"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2739.99,"endTime":2744.7,"body":"book through my website, I will"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2744.7,"endTime":2747.79,"body":"give you a signed edition. And"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2748.24,"endTime":2749.77,"body":"it stops me"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2748.24,"endTime":2749.77,"body":"feeling special."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2750.94,"endTime":2754.69,"body":"Sorry, but if you"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2750.94,"endTime":2754.69,"body":"buy it, also through"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2754.69,"endTime":2760.45,"body":"Loughborough design, press. They"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2754.69,"endTime":2760.45,"body":"sell it. It's a little bit more"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2760.45,"endTime":2764.11,"body":"expensive from my website,"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2760.45,"endTime":2764.11,"body":"because you would get postage"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2764.14,"endTime":2770.74,"body":"costs added to that. But you can"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2764.14,"endTime":2770.74,"body":"also buy it from bookstores, not"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2771.04,"endTime":2774.97,"body":"physical shops, because it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2771.04,"endTime":2774.97,"body":"print on demand book, but you"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2774.97,"endTime":2777.4,"body":"could get it through the grip"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2774.97,"endTime":2777.4,"body":"British bookstore."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2777.73,"endTime":2779.23,"body":"I was gonna say"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2777.73,"endTime":2779.23,"body":"that someone that loves design"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2779.23,"endTime":2781.33,"body":"press. Yes. But we're trying to"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2779.23,"endTime":2781.33,"body":"avoid Amazon."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2781.75,"endTime":2785.23,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, we"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2781.75,"endTime":2785.23,"body":"don't want to use Amazon. But"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2785.23,"endTime":2788.26,"body":"plus the fact that's only a"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2785.23,"endTime":2788.26,"body":"Kindle version anywhere, so."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2789.22,"endTime":2790.0,"body":"Right. Okay,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2790.0,"endTime":2791.92,"body":"so right. That's"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2790.0,"endTime":2791.92,"body":"great. Well, thanks ever so"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2791.92,"endTime":2795.16,"body":"much. And I'll put all those"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2791.92,"endTime":2795.16,"body":"links to your website. And you"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2795.16,"endTime":2798.58,"body":"on Twitter and to the book as"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2795.16,"endTime":2798.58,"body":"well. Yeah. In the show notes,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2798.58,"endTime":2801.34,"body":"but as usual, Paul, it's been"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2798.58,"endTime":2801.34,"body":"absolutely great to talk to you."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2801.7,"endTime":2804.61,"body":"We kind of planned to talk about"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2801.7,"endTime":2804.61,"body":"one thing and we as usual,"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2804.61,"endTime":2808.57,"body":"spiralled. It's pretty much the"},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2804.61,"endTime":2808.57,"body":"good, my mind buzzing."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2808.93,"endTime":2811.75,"body":"Yeah. Lovely."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2808.93,"endTime":2811.75,"body":"That's great and lovely. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2811.75,"endTime":2815.53,"body":"I'll send you over the links if"},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2811.75,"endTime":2815.53,"body":"you come need them."},{"speaker":"Alison Hardy","startTime":2816.7,"endTime":2817.39,"body":"Thanks, Paul."},{"speaker":"Paul Carney","startTime":2817.419,"endTime":2817.989,"body":"Brilliant."}]}