Wander Woman: A Travel Podcast

Are We Over Tourism?

• Phoebe Smith • Season 3 • Episode 7

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With scenes of protest erupting in some of the most visited cities and countries in the world – telling tourists to go home – Wander Woman, Phoebe Smith, shows how merely travelling a little north of the Croatian honeypot of Dubrovnik to explore the region of Zadar the rewards can be great - for travellers and locals.  From discovering the 3,000-year-old Old Town and dancing to the sustainable (and free) Sea Organ, to birdwatching and kayaking in Vrana Lake Nature Park, paddling and eating local on the islands of Ugljan & Pašman and tasting the delights of Pag, there's a whole family-friendly area to enjoy - minus the crowds. Come wander with her…
 
Also coming up:

  • 10 alternative destinations to the overtouristed locations (including scintillating swaps for Barcelona, Tuscany, Iceland and more)
  • Travel Hack: How to be a more responsible traveller in the overcrowded locations
  • Meet "Guerrilla Geographer" Daniel Raven-Ellison who is creating a national walking network connecting every single town and city in Britain
  • Pack the kit you need for scorching hot temperatures
  • Meet the 20-year-old female guide in Benin who is breaking gender barriers in West Africa's tourism industry
  • Dervla Murphy - the ultimate responsible traveller - is our Wander Woman of the Month

Contact Wander Woman

www.Phoebe-Smith.com; @PhoebeRSmith

Speaker 1

On this month's Wander Woman podcast .

Speaker 2

You have the first impression when you come to the island that nothing can survive here . But we have some good , good products that we offer and we have very nice stories to tell .

Speaker 1

As the summer holidays hit , I eschew the over-touristed hotspot of Dubrovnik in Croatia in favour of the much less crowded but no less historical region of Zadar to eat , play and hear some of these stories . Along with my four year old Wander Boy , I also meet the man who is creating Britain's largest database of beautiful , Slow Ways to connect villages , towns and cities together by footpaths .

Speaker 3

When it comes to walking, somehow people think you need to have a GCSE in geography or a Duke of Edinburgh award to find your way around , which is just ridiculous .

Speaker 1

And I meet Shanate , thanks to my translator Yao , one of the first female tour guides in the ancient town of Dassa in West Africa's Benin , who , at the age of 20 , is already inspiring other girls to consider a previously male-dominated profession .

Speaker 4

Now that they are in it , people are coming to them asking what they can do to get involved in the tourism field .

Speaker 1

Also coming up how to be a more considerate traveller when visiting an over-touristed destination . In this month's Travel Hack , 10 of the best alternatives to the world's most visited places . And in my regular gear section , I help you pack for very hot and sunny weather . Finally , I'll be revealing this episode's Wander Woman of the month , the traveller whose name is lost in the history books . You're listening to the Wander Woman podcast and audio travel magazine with me , adventurer Phoebe Smith , exploring off the beaten track destinations , wild spaces , wildlife encounters and the unsung heroes behind conservation efforts . Come wander with

Croatia: Beyond Dubrovnik

Speaker 1

me .

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So we are at the Sea Organ installation , which is the most known modern installation , even in Croatia and in the world . Why ? Because it works in an interesting way . We have 35 pipes of different length . Every pipe has a whistle with seven accords and five tones , similar to the organs . The sea enters inside of the pipes , pushes the air and the stronger the waves , the louder the sound .

Speaker 1

You're joining me in Croatia , but not in an area you might be expecting .

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Even if you only know little about this Balkan country in southeastern Europe , stretching along the Adriatic Sea opposite the long boot of Italy , you will undoubtedly have heard of its most famous city , dubrovnik , famed by TV series Game of Thrones . It is the real walled city that played King's Landing and has since been besieged by tourists , from film buffs to cruise ship passengers , resulting in some very chaotic scenes and problems for locals . Keen to take my son to experience the delights of the country , but not the crowds , I decided to look a bit further north , to a region called Zadar . I began here in the capital of the same name , where there is also a 3,000-year-old walled city with Roman ruins , medieval and Renaissance architecture perfect to discover on foot . We wandered around it all , climbed the bell tower for views of the entire city , ate a lot of gelato and ended by the water to experience the utterly inspiring and completely free Sea Organ , which you heard my guide Vlatka explain all about . And if you're thinking , how much fun can this really be for a four-year-old listen up .

Speaker 6

This is the famous work of the architect Nikola Pasic . It was his design , it was his idea , but it was also a collaboration and a work of several experts , such as musicians , acoustic experts , engineers and yes , you can hear me laughing . So , not only children , adults , everyone loves hearing this installation . It's like a concert which the sea creates and I would say that this installation is an amazing collaboration of a human idea and , of course , the nature .

Speaker 1

And you were saying he did it here because no one came here .

Speaker 6

Oh , I remember as a child , because my high school was pretty close to this area , not many people walked around this part . Everyone walked over there , where you can see the pier , and that's why he thought what to do to bring people , how to stop people to listen to the music , and that's how he got this amazing idea . It's really fascinating and unique in the world .

Speaker 1

I love everything about this modern installation the way the artist sought to regenerate an area no one went to and make it properly family-friendly , and how it's nature that composes the tune , the fact that it's completely off-grid and utterly sustainable , and , of course , the price it costs nothing at all . Continuing on the theme of nature , stealing the show when it came to entertainment , the following day we picked up a hire car and drove the 50-minute journey to Vrana Lake Nature Park in the southeastern corner of the region for more outdoor escapades , where the ranger explained a little about the area .

Speaker 7

So Vrana Lake is really specific . It's the largest lake in Croatia and , as you can see , it stretches along the coast in the same direction as the sea . It is protected as a nature park because of its biodiversity and also importance for wildlife , and we have this northern part , we are here . Right , ok , we have this northern part we are here , right , okay , in this viewpoint , we have this northern part of the lake which is protected as ornithological reserve reserve for birds . Yeah , it's because it's a marsh .

Speaker 7

Basically it's a marsh and marshes are endangered habitats in Croatia , also in europe

Speaker 1

Where we started on the limestone cliffs above the lake , there were two trails to follow to enjoy the views down over the entire length of the water , so we headed out on the limestone cliffs above the lake . There were two trails to follow to enjoy the views down over the entire length of the water , so we headed out on the longest one , following waymarkers , through the macchia vegetation where hardy evergreens similar to those found in the savannahs have adapted to survive the extreme conditions up here , with dry climate and lack of soil and water . We spotted juniper sage and immortal as we went and finally reached the lookout over Vrana and out to sea , when my son had a very important question

Wander Boy

Mummy where's our hotel ?

Speaker 1

Luckily , he was just curious about the geography of the place and not asking to go back . When we returned and sampled an ice cream , the ranger advised where we could go next .

Speaker 7

It's really nice and there is no , not so many people . Yeah , um , so here , when we look , I will tell you what we can see . Yeah , um , as you can see . So this first water , greenish one , is the lake . Yeah , uh , usually people sometimes get confused , and this , um , middle uh reef , yeah , divides the lake from the sea , so this blue water is Adriatic Sea . On the left side of the lake you have this half peninsula and behind it is a canal , prosica . There is a thin line that connects the sea and the lake . So there you will be doing kayaking in this little bay .

Speaker 1

We headed down from this promontory we were on called , which translates as Stone Hill , to arrive at Prusik , where we picked up a kayak and took to the water . Look , can you see the dragonfly ? It's just flown away . Keep looking . We've already seen cormorants . Speaking of cormorants , it was time for us to check out the last section of the nature reserve Vransko-Gesero Boardwalk , where 600 metres of wooden planks take you across the wetland to hopefully spot some of their key species , as Sandra in the visitor's centre explained when giving us our binoculars .

Speaker 10

Here are mostly pygmy cormorants and purple herons . Purple heron is on our logo also .

Speaker 1

And when is the best time to come and see them ?

Speaker 10

Early , early in the morning and late in the evening when the sun is already down . Yeah , it's the best time , when the birds are most active .

Speaker 1

And what's the most unusual bird you might see here ?

Speaker 10

Glossy ibis for me , yeah , but it's not so rare , but it's an attraction to me . I like to see it very much .

Speaker 1

We headed out , bins in hand , looking and listening . Finally , we hear something . A cuckoo and my son imparts some very important bird information .

Wander Boy

Mummy, Peppa has a cuckoo . A cuckoo clock .

Speaker 1

This is a real one , though . Birded out, we headed back to the hotel and collapsed into bed , dreaming of cuckoo clocks , Peppa Pig and kayak adventures . The next day we would be taken to the water again so we could explore more of Zadar's archipelago and the islands of Uligan and Pasman , where we met a guide , Julia , who immediately summoned a rower who took us over to another tiny islet . I asked Julia where were we ?

Speaker 5

The locals are calling it Školić . It means small island . Here is situated a monastery of Saint Paul the Hermit . The monastery was built in the 15th century and there is also a church , an old Italian cemetery , and they have also a small museum that works during the summer . It's a collection of monasteries , books and items from the printer and the glycolytic scripts . It's a very small collection but it's very nice .

Speaker 1

After meeting the monks , checking out the church and playing hide-and-seek in the graveyard , my four-year-old made me , I promise, we went back to the main town of Prejko , the name of which literally means opposite , as it's opposite Zadar Old Town . We hiked up to an old medieval fortress of St Michael , which has held a stretch like this since the 6th century and where Benedictine monks used to live . Nowadays it's a great spot for a picnic . After this , me and my son headed via a bridge to the twin island of Pashman , where our guide gave us a rundown of what makes the two places have their own distinct identity .

Speaker 11

Uligan is very much a fishing island and fisherman islands , and here in the Pasman , and in the past , this was the island of agriculture . We have a rich land and the good giving land , because every products from here , agricultural products , are just high quality products .

Speaker 1

Speaking of products, she took me next into the family owned and run OPG Mautlic , a company that makes natural cosmetics and food items from local ingredients , as owner Ana explains .

Speaker 9

Mostly our natural cosmetic is based on olive oil , but there are also like apricot seed oil and almond oil in most , all of them , and the most popular is immortale . It's helichrys flower yeah , because it's good anti-age cosmetic and it's good for dry skin . So this is our best seller in cosmetics produce everything by yourself . We don't have all ingredients here . We need to buy , like apricot seed oil and acid , obviously , yes , yes , but we have our own olive oil and herbs and flowers such as immortale or lavender . We have also lavender balm , yeah , and for food products , everything is grown here . It's figs , balsamic vinegar made of fig , yeah , and then also chili peppers . We have hot chili sauce . And then we have also sea salt , croatian sea salt from Nin , with our herbs .

Speaker 1

Ana's talk of food had us both salivating at the thought of our final destination , Pag , found to the northwest of Zadar . Now , if you are , or have been , a hedonistic party animal in your day , you will know the place due to its open-air clubs and summer music festivals amid its moonlight landscapes . But its reputation really should be for its produce .

Speaker 12

Pag , a very long island , 62 kilometres in length , A very narrow island , some one , two , three kilometres wide . The mountains we can see over there .

Speaker 1

This is Bernard , a local and guide , who is very proud of the settlement of Pag , whose name literally means small village . Due to the geography Bernard described it was the perfect place for salt pans and the Romans back in the day made them here to create a once thriving industry . They're still here now and make salt only in smaller quantities . It's also the place where you can get lamb , and even more well-known and celebrated is Pag cheese . I met Martina Skunka , president of the Pag Cheese Producers Association , for a tour and sampling of her family's Gilgora cheese , which they've been making for centuries . She told me the question and answer most people have when sampling their cheese .

Speaker 2

What is the secret of this cheese ? Why so popular ? Because it's really one of the most recognisable Croatian products . I like to say that there is no big secret in production itself . You will see inside . Production of Paschke cheese is very , very simple and it doesn't differentiate much from the production of any other hard or semi-hard cheese , like Manchego , pecorino or so on , because the technology is the same . But the secret of this cheese is because it contains the essence of this island in itself , this rocky environment with a little grass growing on it . But this grass that grows on the island of Pag is very special . It's full of aromatic herbs like lavender , like sage .

Speaker 2

Always remember how to say apricot , always , no matter many , many aromatic herbs . And and then also salt , which is brought from the Adriatic Sea by this strong wind that blows in the winter . It is called bura , or bora in Italian , and it brings salt to the pastures , and that is what eats our Pag sheep , which I call a super animal because it's very small but very strong , very resistant to this hard island condition , and that is what makes her milk and in that way she is so special . So the secret is in the island of Pag .

Speaker 1

Both me and my Wander Boy discovered the secret and the wonderful taste of this product at the end of the tour , both the hard cheese and a kind of ricotta that they make from the whey , ensuring nothing is wasted . The final product that this place is famous for is lace . Intricate handmade lace that to this day no machine can replicate . But I loved it for more than that for the fact it represented freedom to the local girls , as Bernard explains .

Speaker 12

Imagine the 16th century in a small town on an island in the middle of the Adriatic . Chances for little girls in life were equal to zero . They could go to the monastery like , get married and have 10 children and look after them for the whole life . Help the man giving them water and cleaning the salt in the salt pools , help the man in the vineyards and so on . I mean chase chances were . Chances of education were zero . Actually , now , first the Benedictine nuns and then later school , like the picture which saw inside um gave them first of all some reading and learning skill reading and writing skills , some basic geometry skills , some basic mathematical and algebra skills , and then the possibility of making a product that could they sell or exchange for other goods and so on . This actually made those little girls able to provide a better future to their children and for themselves , of course .

Speaker 1

It's fair to say that Pag far exceeded my expectations , as Martina told me before I left .

Speaker 2

You have the first impression when you come to the island that nothing can survive here . But we have some good , good products that we offer and we have very nice stories to tell .

Speaker 1

We ended our Croatian trip that evening back where we began , in the old town of Zadar , at the site of the Sea Organ and its sister sculpture , created by the same artist , Greeting to the Sun . Here , at dusk , solar panels on the floor representing the sun and planets of our solar system begin to light up , turning the whole place into a giant dance floor . With so much nature , so few crowds , a focus on local produce and free , sustainable attractions like these , both me and Wander Boy felt we had much to celebrate . And so we held hands and jumped , pranced and waltzed across the dazzling lights , while behind us the sea played a tune and the sun set on our incredible adventure .

Travel Hack: How to be a Responsible Traveller

Speaker 1

That was me and my little Wander Boy enjoying all the delights of Croatia's Zadar region , a place I went to fairly sceptical and left well , actually not wanting to leave at all . Having already been to Dubrovnik and Split in the past , I had not been in a rush to return to the country , but four days in Zadar forced me to broaden my mind , and I'm so glad I did . It truly proved to me that the answer to over-touristed hotspots is not to avoid the country entirely , but the answer to over-touristed hotspots is not to avoid the country entirely , but change where we go and visit .

Speaker 1

There are some places , though , you can't avoid going . Maybe it's due to a transit , a family member's desire to see it , or being part of a trip that includes it , or maybe there's a feeling you have that you just have to check it out and see it for yourself . But there are things you can do in very popular places to ensure you are not part of the problem . Listen up for my travel hack on how you can be a more considerate traveller .

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Now I've called my hack how to be a considerate traveller , although how not to be an idiot in over-touristed places would probably work just as well . I'm not here to preach . Most people are genuinely respectful and thoughtful when they travel . Just wait until you hear about this month's Wander Woman of the Month for a masterclass in doing it right . But over the years , I've picked up a few tips that not only make you a more considerate visitor , but also lead to a richer , more meaningful experience for you too .

Speaker 1

First up , think timing . Those locations are under pressure Venice , Machu Picchu , Reykjavik but can be visited at any time of the year . Go in what tourist boards love to call the shoulder seasons , spring and autumn . It might be quieter and you'll be spreading the income throughout the year and benefit from less crowds too . Look particularly at cruise ship schedules and avoid those dates . You and all the residents will thank you .

Speaker 1

Linked to this is thinking about the lives of the locals . I've got a friend who reported the horrible scenes in Dubrovnik when tourists were filling up the local buses on the school run , forcing kids to miss their transport . Don't travel when the buses are full of commuters or kids getting to or from school . Respect the rhythm of the place and plan accordingly , and be careful who you take . Photos of the line of children , all dressed the same , looking very cute , may look amazing on your Instagram feed , but these are people going about their lives . Respect their boundaries and it's worth thinking twice when you also photograph doorways , homes and places of work . You don't want them to become engulfed by selfie seekers .

Speaker 1

I know what some of you are thinking . Yes , many places do rely heavily on tourism for income , so we're grateful , but be mindful where you spend your cash and be generous when you do . Leave a tip . Employ a local guide shop at the corner store . Stay at a family-run guest house over a corporate conglomerate . You may leave a little poorer , but you'll have a richer experience because of it .

Speaker 1

Also , tap into the local knowledge when on the ground . Ask the locals where they go . I always ask about their favourite bar or restaurant and almost always they're happy to point me in the direction of a neighbourhood gem . And , given the loose theme of this episode of 'Off the Beaten Track' , always escape the main drag . Two blocks away from the maelstrom of Kyoto's old town in Japan , for instance , are some of the most fascinating shops and restaurants barely visited by the throngs , just a couple of hundred metres away . And these guys are very grateful for your custom too .

Speaker 1

Really , like all tourism , it's about leaving a place better than when you found it .

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Maybe it's being generous picking up a bit of litter , leaving a kind word in a guest book , buying someone a coffee Bring as much joy into the lives of the locals as you get from their home .

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Happy , less overcrowded travels ! That was my Wander Woman travel hack , the advice I give you every episode to make you a thoughtful traveller who always treads lightly . Speaking of treading ,

Daniel Raven-Ellison: Reconnecting Britain on Foot

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my next guest is a man who always likes to go to a place on foot . Daniel Raven Ellison started out as a geography teacher but is now a National Geographic explorer and a self-described guerrilla geographer . He founded and led the campaign to make London the world's first national park city and supported Adelaide in Australia , Chattanooga in the USA and Breda in the Netherlands to become National Park Cities too . He's founder and CEO of Slow Ways , a giant initiative to create a national walking network that connects all of Britain's towns , cities and national parks , and as the Slow Ways Network is preparing for an ambitious change , I caught up with him in the heart of the National Park City of London , naturally to talk about what inspired him , how you become a guerrilla geographer and how we can all get involved in the Slow Ways Network .

Speaker 3

Guerrilla geography is radical alternative . Surprising geographies that help us think differently about the world .

Speaker 1

OK , so surprise me with some of your guerrilla geography . What is it that you're up to at the moment ?

Speaker 3

Well , one of my big projects . Actually , we're sitting right now , at the moment , in Temple , right in the middle of London , and a few years ago I started a campaign that led to London becoming a national park city , which is a very large act of guerrilla geography , challenging us to reimagine whole urban landscapes as national parks . So I worked on that for a while and then , during that campaign , I got imagining this idea of slow ways , this idea of creating a national walking network that connected up all our towns and cities , and the inspiration for it really was that people have been walking on these islands for hundreds of thousands of years . For some reason , it's really easy to navigate these lands by car or by train , and yet , when it comes to walking , somehow people think you need to have a GCSE in geography or a Duke of Edinburgh award to find your way around , which is just ridiculous . Yeah , so Slow Ways was really founded . It's just a gift , really , where people could use this big online platform to suggest good , easy ways to walk between neighbouring towns and cities .

Speaker 1

I love the idea because when myself and Dwayne walked the length of mainland Britain , we our constant bugbear was how difficult it was to get from one place to another without I love the idea because when myself and Dwayne walked the length of mainland Britain , our constant bugbear was how difficult it was to get from one place to another without walking alongside a road . How have you found the projects mapped out ? Has it been quite easy ?

Speaker 3

Well , I mean , it's been a massive challenge . It's been going on for five years now , but our volunteers have created 10,000 routes connecting 2,500 towns and cities . You can walk a four or five star route from Inverness all the way down to Falmouth . Wow , there are tens of thousands of kilometres of verified routes which have been triple-checked by volunteers . So , yeah , you can , and I think you can use the routing on our platform to quickly suggest the best way to go between those places . And clearly , you know things like Google Maps are fantastic for finding your way around towns and cities , but we wouldn't necessarily trust them in the countryside and things like commutes and outdoor active and things are fantastic for algorithms to say maybe a good way to go from one place to another , but it's not quite the same thing as there being someone you can trust saying , yeah , that's a good way to go , especially if you have a particular need or desire that an algorithm can't meet and so the slow is it free to use ?

Speaker 1

Do people have to pay to use it ? Tell me a bit about it .

Speaker 3

Yeah , it's completely free . We've been very fortunate to have funding from the National Tree Community Fund for the last four years , and that has enabled us to sort of grow the platform and grow the movement , and it's just such a beautiful thing , you know , I think , a real inspiration for me as well . As you know , there are many hardened explorers people have explored a lot , like you have , yeah , um who might be able to risk a dodgy path or a bad path and not knowing whether something's going to work out or not . But there are millions of people who won't even set out on a footpath because they don't know they're allowed to , don't know that they can , don't know if it's going to work out or not , and so I think we can do better for all those people , and at one stage in our lives that will actually be all of us as well . So just the fact there's a path on a map isn't good enough . We can do better .

Speaker 1

I love it and what is the feedback been about the project , about people who've started using it ?

Speaker 3

People love it when they get into it . But you know , slow ways are linear routes that take you from one place to another . Yeah , often they're sort of . On average they're 12 kilometers long and most people in this country quite like going driving somewhere and doing a circular walk , don't they ? And coming back to where they started , which is very convenient . But then you know the problem that you and duane had traveling the length of the country , that local knowledge connected up with other local people on how you get from A to B .

Speaker 3

I think it's both been lost to some people and places , but also it's culturally a bit broken as well . You know , I don't know car . There's lots of people who don't know cars , and so actually station to station walks or bus stop to bus stop is just a fantastic way to explore the landscape . So I think once people start getting their head around the logistics and do one , two or three routes , there's a bit of a gateway moment where people can't stop doing it . And I think part of the thing there is that , you know , you patch together parts of the landscape in your imagination and then you want to connect it up even more and we've got about , I think , 10 volunteers who walked over 3, 000 kilometers of routes . Wow . And so you know , rather than trying to do just John O' Groats - Lands End , in one go . They're covering similar kind of distances , but you know , every Thursday or Friday , every weekend , they do another 20 kilometres and then slowly , slowly put things together .

Speaker 1

And can anyone be a volunteer to help grow the Slow Ways Network ?

Speaker 3

Anyone can be a volunteer to get involved . Yeah , I mean you need to be able to read a map so that you can help other people know good ways to go . You need to be able to walk the distances that are ahead of you . The average route , like I said , is about 12 kilometers , but in this city , london , there are hundreds that are under five kilometers . There are about 10 that are over 40 , but that's because up in scotland sometimes it's 40 kilometers to the next place and so what's the end goal ?

Speaker 1

Do you hope to have the entire british isles , an Ireland as well ? Is it that you're doing ?

Speaker 3

So at the moment it's Britain , and this takes me on to where we are now really . I mean , slow ease is a super ambitious , beautiful project , and that's all the towns and cities , but it's actually just not good enough . We need to meet people far more where they are and create a network that is radically more inclusive . So , Britain and Ireland , but I want to connect up all the hilltops , all the shops , all the nature reserves , all the beaches , all the villages , all the postcodes , not just for walking , but thinking right across the spectrum of mobility , people powered mobility . So people using wheelchairs , push chairs , people biking , adaptive cycling , running , horse riding what's good for them ? That could be all of us at different times .

Speaker 3

And the way we want to do it , which I think is very , very , very exciting , is to give nonprofit and community organizations across the country the ability to create networks like we have for their communities , whether that's a local community or a community of interest or need right to create networks like we have , so that people who trust them know they could follow in their footsteps . And you know , a good example for me might be that I used to be a geography teacher If I could have set for my local families and children . Five kilometre walks , two kilometre walks they could do to connect with nature and learn about geography in the local area . I'd have loved to have done that , and I know people who use adaptive cycles . They know where all the accessible routes are , but they don't know where all the places are . They could get to as long as they've got the right kit and the right strength . So I think if we had thousands of community organisations sharing good ways to go for their local communities , we can then weave them all together to create national networks .

Speaker 3

For example , anyone visiting a new place and say well , where's a local , family-friendly nature walk , I can go there there visiting a new place and say well , where's a local family-friendly nature walk , I can go there , there's some created by teachers or a disability group or a group that loves owls .

Speaker 3

Yeah , yeah , you know where's the best owl walks . If you've got a gummy knee .

Speaker 1

It sounds a little bit like you're devolving it . But then to reconnect it all together , do you think it's - do you think it's going to be easier to get it done quicker ? Is that the reason ?

Speaker 3

it's a fascinating point . Yeah , I think there will be thousands more people who can contribute now who didn't before . Yeah , because of the length and size of the slowways network , so in some ways be quicker . But some people might think we're overstating this , but actually I think if you just think about a path going from any village and you imagine a sign in the middle of that village with all the different community groups that are there , there might be a u3a group , a wildlife group , nursery school , all of who might use that same path but for different reasons . So I think an exciting thing we might be able to do in the future with this tech right is say , okay , so we , we can give you the route that's best for that particular intersection you're interested in right of like , your need .

Speaker 3

But if you were , for example , a family interested in hours with a child and someone was using a wheelchair and a push chair , if all those other groups have told us that that path is good for those people , we can then say okay , so it's good for a group with all those interests , so super ambitious but , like , completely possible if enough people join in , and that's one of the things I think it's really compelling about it and is that going to be the biggest challenge getting people to join in . Definitely , and we've got an enormous ridiculous crowdfunding campaign to pull this off , and part of it is about raising the funds that's needed .

Speaker 1

That was passionate walker and 'guerrilla geographer' , Daniel Raven Ellison , a man who is the brains behind making London being recognised as a national park city and , of course , forming the Slow Ways Network . If you've been inspired and want to help , then do reach out to them at slowways . org .

10 Alternatives to Overtouristed Destinations

Speaker 1

Now, this episode is focused on how you can be a more responsible traveller , especially in times where places are experiencing over-tourism . But by far the best way , as we heard in Croatia , is to avoid the hotspots altogether . The rewards can be great , but where to go ? Well , that's where my top 10 comes in , as I offer up the alternative destinations to the world's most over-touristed hotspots .

Speaker 1

In at 10 , it's the one in the news , barcelona , and its alternative is Girona . If Las Ramblas leaves you rattled , then head northeast to the tune of 99 kilometers or 62 miles to Girona , where a gothic maze of old paths and medieval buildings preserved in time awaits . It's a foodie hotspot too . Be sure to sample the , a kind of cream filled , sugary croissant . Yum

Speaker 1

At nine we're We're avoiding Iceland's golden circle , that's , the crowd circling Gullfloss and Geyser on loop , and instead heading to the Westfjords , on a large peninsula to the northwest of the country , where travel writers would throw around words such as remote , dramatic and isolated . You'll see puffins , empty roads and hot springs that don't use the words blue or . lagoon

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In at eight is the effortlessly charming region of Umbria , where I just returned from exploring , with Italian specialists , Slo ways , the lesser known neighbour of Tuscany . The medieval towns of Spello and Montefalco are quietly beautiful , with authentic trattorias , and the forested hills lined with olive groves make it the perfect place to sample Italian cuisine with locals rather than tourists .

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At seven , we're skipping over Amsterdam in the summer and heading instead to Haarlem , just 15 minutes away . The pace is slower , the museums are quieter and you'll find a seat at the bar filled with locals , not stag doos . Renting a bike and heading to the sea is a relaxing option too .

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For number six , we're singing the praises of Lyon , france's gastronomic capital , without the Paris price tag . Authentic bouchons , riverside cafes and farmers markets all add up to Lyon being a brilliant alternative to the capital city

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.

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At five , avoid the backpacking crowds of Bali and instead head to Chioggia Sumba , a short flight away . There are Chioggia still the beautiful beaches and fun times , but it feels remote and raw and is excellent for surfing . At four , we have to mention Venice and its quieter counterpart , chioggia , although part of the same lagoon , chioggia is a real working location for fish markets and industry . It doesn't have the same level of beauty , but hey , let's face it nowhere does but it offers a real taste of life on the water . No Bezos wedding in sight .

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At three , we're talking Machu Picchu , or rather avoiding it in favour of the . It's not unknown , but the Inca sites are just as exquisite and you need to undertake a decent trek to get there , keeping the numbers at bay .

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And for number two , it's out of London and to Bristol . Yay , I love this city . Its mixture of hipster restaurants and bars , diversity and still a little bit of grit makes it perhaps my favourite city in Britain .

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And at number one , we're swapping the Swiss Alps for the Julian Alps . A recent visit convinced me of the beauty of the Alps , largely in Slovenia and Triglav National Park . It's just as jagged and dramatic , but so much quieter and cheaper . The Alp Adria Trail traverses the best of it , so lace up your hiking boots and get ready for some quieter trekking .

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Wow , even I am now plotting my next crowdfree escapade after telling you that . list .

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One place I won't be going before I do my gear

Gear Chat: Dressing for Extreme Heat

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chat is somewhere super hot , because this month , in the heat we hope of the UK summer , I give you some advice on the best kit for tackling scorching , and I mean Death Valley , proportioned heat . Think the Australian outback , oman's empty quarter or , as I just discovered the other week , central Italy in July . Want to cool down ?

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Listen up .

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First off , get yourself a good hat . It wasn't just to look good that Indiana Jones had a trusty wide-brimmed number that he would literally dive under moving rocks to retrieve . Unlike a cap , the protection from this type of hat means

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you don't burn on your neck or your face . Look for one that has some form of ventilation , and if it's impregnated with insect repellent , so much the better . Speaking of your neck , take a buff or neck gaiter . This tube of material will keep you cool , especially if you dunk it in a river or lake or run it under the cold tap on your travels for instant cooling . Another way to take the sun off is an umbrella . Sure , there are fancy parasols you can get , but a bog standard brolly will do to ensure you have a portable shade and escape from the sun wherever you wander .

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In terms of clothing , ladies may want to consider a maxi dress . As we all know , I am a convert to them . Consider technical tops that cover shoulders from burns , have anti-smell tech Season Three sweat Episode away Four from Voodoo body effortlessly . When it comes to fabrics , linen is your friend . It's cool and breathable and looks smart . If needed , go oversized to really help with ventilation For your feet . Dassa If wearing Shanate walking shoes or trainers , be sure to get decent socks with limited seams to prevent rubbing , and I recently discovered the Compede stick that helps stop blisters before they even start Highly recommended . If you prefer an open-air shoe , look for multi-activity sandals , preferably with padding around the straps to stop any hot spots , in short , and shorts are a good option too . There really is no such thing as too hot weather , only ill-advised clothing . So now you know how to be cool in many , many ways .

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where I guide you through some of the toughest kick conundrums

Hidden Hero: One of the first female guides in Benin

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Robert Speaking of guiding on my trip to Africa with Explore , listen to season three , episode four , voodoo Child , for more . One thing I noticed overwhelmingly was that all the guides were male . Where are all the women , I asked my male guide . That was until we reached DASA and Shanati introduced herself . Although she hadn't been in the job long . She spoke to me about what drove her to go for a career not usually considered one for girls , and how her presence in the field is already changing people's opinions . When did you become a guide ?

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A couple of hours . When did you become a guide ? It's been a few months since I started training with Mr Roubaix .

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A couple of months ago .

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A couple of months . D

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Yes , she got trained . She got trained with one of the professional guides here in rare ? Sassoumi .

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Traveling around Benin and Antogo , we haven't seen any female guides . Is it quite ? Rare .

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She's talking about the man who trained her . She's saying that there are six who got trained by that man . Six girls , six girls , yes , and when people see them , they are amazed because they are accustomed to see like ladies guiding , they are amazed because it's something which is common here .

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Does she think maybe because there aren't many women guides , women didn't think they could become it . So does she think that maybe by her becoming a guide it might inspire more girls to also become guides here in Benin ? The first question is from Monty . .

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She said the fact that there are many men in the tourism field that women are not interested in . She can't give any precise answer about that , but she herself she was inspired by that guy , Mr Robert , who trained them when she was a student . When she was seeing that guy guiding , she was very interested in what the man was doing guiding , she was very interested in what the man was doing . After her studies at University she decided to go for that training and become a tour leader and she saw that she would do marvelous in the , the feed and inspire other other ladies .

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Does she think that more women are now considering it as an option for a job ?

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Yes , yes , she thinks so .

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And what do her family and friends think about her doing this job ?

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Well for my family . They didn't know that she would be interested in the field and now they have started supporting her , pushing her up .

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And do you think the community in general are becoming more accepting that oh , actually , we may see more girls doing this job .

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Yes, during the training , when people were seeing them , they were asking what are you doing ? They were eager to know what they can do to also get involved in the tourism field .

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That's really inspiring .

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Yes , she's sure that in the future she'll be a great guide Now that she has started doing this job . They didn't have the opportunity to visit many sites , but whenever she's there and they don't call her for work , she calls the the man who trained them , Mr Robert to ask them when is the next one or what can I do today ? And she also every time when she is with him , she listens to master more the histories , the stories that she'll have to tell the tourists who come .

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So she is giving all to be one of the best and be , like him , the one who trained her .

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Well , maybe one day people will say the same about her .

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That was this episode's hidden hero the personal people making real change in their communities . It was a pleasure to meet Shanate , who was just 20 years old and already inspiring others in her community . I really hope that when I go back to West Africa , especially Benin , I will see a great many more women breaking out of traditional gender roles and leading trips . And just like that . It's nearly the end of this episode , so nearly time for me to reveal my utterly inspirational Wander Woman of the Month . I hope you've enjoyed what you've heard . Please do subscribe so you never miss an episode , and please , please , please do leave a review . It means so very much . You can follow me on @phoebeRSmith , find me on blue sky or go to my phoebe- , phoebe smith . com , where you can sign up for my occasional newsletter and , of course , send me a message .

Wander Woman of the Month: Dervla Murphy

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Now this episode , we're heading to Ireland , where a 10 year old girl is about to make a discovery that will change the axis of her entire life .

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The year is 1941 . The place ? A hill near Lismore , a town in the historic county Waterford in the Republic of Ireland . Cycling up the hill is a 10-year-old girl who , for her birthday , has just been given a second-hand bicycle by her mother and an atlas . She looks down at her legs pumping the pedals and thinks if I went on doing this for long enough , I could get to India . Her name is Dervla Dervla Murphy , and that thought , that realisation she had atop of that small hill , changed the entire course of her life .

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These gifts may have set her on an adventurous path , but it was her upbringing that shaped her worldview . Born here in Lismore in 1931 , her father , Fergus , a highly educated man , had been interned for three years in Wormwood Scrubs for his involvement in the Irish Republican movement , and her mother was crippled by arthritis and reliant on Dervla's care .

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Dervla's first trip away from Ireland came 10 years later , at the age of 20 , when she took her bike and cycled through England and Wales writing a series of articles for Hibernia magazine . When she could manage breaks away from nursing her mother , she took sporadic trips to Europe , fuelling her wanderlust further . Then , when her mother died in 1962 , with nothing stopping her , she set off on the first of her many two-wheeled adventures , armed with her bicycle , her Atlas , £64 , and , thanks to the County Waterford Gardie , a .25 pistol and a quick lesson in how to use it .

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She set her compass for India by bike , along the way she fended off wolves in what was then Yugoslavia and thwarted thieves in Iran . This was all chronicled in her iconic debut Full Tilt Island to India with a Bicycle , despite breaking three ribs after a blow from a rifle butt in Afghanistan . The book is imbued not with bravado but with sympathy , curiosity and deep respect for the people she met along the way . Some called it one of the greatest travel books ever written , and by others as the best cycling book of all time . Either way , full Tilt Island to India with a Bicycle launched a remarkable 26-book career .

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Dervla ventured to corners of the world rarely visited by Westerners in the 1960s and 70s . She followed the AIDS pandemic through Kenya and Zimbabwe for the Ukimwe Road , travelled through post-genocide Rwanda , wrote from the heart of the Balkans in Through the Embers of Chaos and , between 2011 and 2015 , made repeated visits to Israel and Palestine , resulting in three deeply insightful books that today are seemingly prescient . In A Place Apart , she cycled through Northern Ireland at the height of the Troubles . Her later work became increasingly political , but always grounded in the daily lives of ordinary people . If I am to be remembered , she wrote . I'd like to be remembered as someone interested in the ordinary people of whatever country I was in , never one Want to embrace Embrace the Heroine De trope . In Wheels Within Wheels , her 1979 memoir , she reflected on how her austere upbringing prepared her for the rigours of solo travel . The hardships and poverty of my youth had been a good apprenticeship for this form of travel . I had been brought up to understand that material possessions and physical comfort should never be confused with success , achievement and security . Though she never married , murphy had a daughter , rachel , with journalist Terence Devere White . Rachel later joined her on journeys through Peru , madagascar and India , beginning when she was just six years

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old . Travelling with a child , murphy observed , often brought unexpected benefits . A child's presence emphasises your trust in the community's goodwill . As someone who also travels with my son , currently four , it's a sentiment that deeply resonates . Dervla Murphy's name does not trip off the tongue , as it should , but her books are still in print and together offer a tome to the world of that time , and it is truly global in its expanse . When she died at the age of 90 back in Lismore , a place she always loved to return to , I hope she recognised the relevancy her books still have . Her stories from Gaza , sub-saharan Africa , russia and Iran remain essential reading , as does her approach to the people she meets , the respect , the core and the love she so clearly demonstrated wherever she went , and that's why Dervla Murphy is our Wander fearless Wonder Woman of the

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Month . That was my Wander ever-inspiring Wonder Woman of the Month , the traveller whose name is lost in the history books purely because of her gender . I hope you enjoyed learning all about her and go seek out some of her books . They are utterly essential reading for any traveller . Seek out some of her books . They are utterly essential reading any traveller for

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any - with traveller . In the next episode of the Wonder Woman podcast , I attempt my first 50 mile challenge walk with the Long Distance Walkers Association , a volunteer member organisation I am proud to be the president of . Will I make it to the finish within the 22 hour time limit ? Can I manage to wonder all through the night ? Will me and my friend Ellie from season 3 , episode 3 , between a Rock and a Hard Place , still be friends by the time we finish ? There's only one way to find out . Also , I'll be chatting to TV presenter and wildlife buff Mike Dilger to learn why he says he has bird Tourette's Meeting a man on a mission to revitalise an Italian town ravaged by earthquakes and dwindling youth , and I'll be picking my top 10 short walks . I'll need one after my challenge , with big views around the world and , as always , I'll be revealing my inspirational Wonder Woman of the month . See you next time

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, Wander Woman John

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out . The Wonder Woman podcast is written and produced by me , phoebe Smith . The editor and writer of additional material is Daniel Nielsen . The logo was designed by Johnerton . A final thanks to all the people I met on my journey and were willing to talk to me . It's because of you that this podcast is able to happen at all .