Episode 179 - New Approaches to Marketing

In this episode of "Get Your Shoot Together," Kira and Mary dive into the challenges and triumphs of running a photography business in today's market. They discuss the shifting landscape of digital marketing, sharing insights on why direct mail might be making a comeback. The duo explores innovative ways to engage potential clients through LinkedIn and the power of creating exclusive community groups on social media. They also touch on the importance of rest and self-care amid a busy schedule, emphasizing how taking a step back can lead to better productivity. Tune in for practical tips and strategies to enhance your marketing efforts and streamline your business operations.

This episode was written and performed by Mary Fisk-Taylor and Kira Derryberry, produced and edited by Kira Derryberry.

Transcript

Sure, I can help clean up the transcript and make it easier to follow. I'll correct the speaker labels and fix any readability issues. Here's the cleaned-up version:

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**Kira Derryberry:**  
This week's episode is brought to you by our friends at RetouchUp. RetouchUp: Work smarter, not harder. Welcome to *Get Your Shoot Together*, the photographer's podcast where we discuss studio business life and keeping it all in line. I'm Kira Derryberry.

**Mary Fiz Taylor:**  
And I'm Mary Fiz Taylor. Hello, welcome back!

**Kira:**  
Welcome back! Hey, guys.

**Mary:**  
Hey, happy summer.

**Kira:**  
I know, we're heading into not being much summer left.

**Mary:**  
Oh, we were just talking. I was just talking to Kira that I can't believe school's already going back. This is crazy. What happened? Like, we're just getting out of school.

**Kira:**  
I don't know. Lucy starts high school next week.

**Mary:**  
High school! Oh, you know what I'm like? I have to go back to school shopping. I don't know what the high school kids wear. I mean, you know, I don't care, it's not that big of a deal. It can't be that crazy.

**Kira:**  
My understanding is they wear a lot of sweatpants at the school. Leggings, I don't know. Yeah, probably all the stuff that she's already wearing, but I don't want to buy her anything that she comes home and tells me like, "Oh, I can't wear this."

**Mary:**  
Right, like the dress code stuff. In middle school, you couldn't wear crop shirts.

**Kira:**  
Yeah, it's probably pretty similar in high school. It's public school, I mean, it would be probably pretty similar.

**Mary:**  
Yeah, so we're about to embark on that. I just want summer to be longer.

**Kira:**  
I know, I hate it. I don't like it. I never like it when summer ends. I mean, I could do without some of this oppressive humid heat we've been having, but no, my kids are growing, and I dread the end of summer and then going back to school. I loved it when we would get up in the morning and we're all home together. The sports weren't as busy and all this stuff. You know, just none of the homework.

**Mary:**  
Oh God, yeah, don't get me started on homework. I don't believe homework is good for their mental health, to be honest. I mean, they work all day and then come home and work on it some more. That's a long day for their little brains to be churning out homework.

**Kira:**  
College, I guess, it's different. It's different, I absolutely agree. But no, it is absolutely so much.

**Mary:**  
So, yeah, I went to a seminar last week. I can't wait to dig in. Guys, we're going to actually talk about some business stuff because I've got questions, I've got thoughts, I've got things to think and say.

**Kira:**  
You wish to pontificate.

**Mary:**  
I wish to pontificate, absolutely. We will be right back.

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**Mary:**  
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**Kira:**  
And we're back.

**Mary:**  
And we're back. Okay, so I have really had a challenge this year, a lot of challenges this year. I mean nothing earth-shattering, but on one hand, I can say we're having an amazing year, but I can also say it's because I've had some amazing sales. Yeah, not volume at all, like not a lot, but like numbers. And I'm like, how are these people, what do these people do? Beginning of the year spring? How are they stroking checks for this much money? I don't understand this.

**Kira:**  
Yeah, I was going to say my family sales, all large sales, all large. Yes, but my conversion on leads has been dismal this year. By that, I mean whether I did try to do a little bit of digital marketing, because I'm testing that out, just kind of trying to split-test different marketing styles.

**Mary:**  
So, obviously, we have traditional marketing and digital marketing, right. So, digital marketing can be emails, it could be lead magnets on your website, it could be Facebook or Instagram or funnel-type marketing using social media, normally.

**Kira:**  
What am I forgetting here?

**Mary:**  
Those are like social or posting on social media, right. So that's kind of your digital marketing realm, right? That's your options. And then your traditional marketing is going to obviously be referrals, networking, snail mail or direct mail, and partnerships.

**Kira:**  
Where do search engine results fall? Is that digital?

**Mary:**  
That would be your website, so that would be digital. Anything online, right? So having great SEO, that's kind of, I don't consider that marketing, that's just good business, right? Like you have to have that, and that's organic or direct. Now, the place where it wouldn't be is if you're paid marketing. So your Google ads, I mean, that's going to be digital marketing.

**Kira:**  
I actually, my call after this is with my Google person. My Google stuff stinks, and as I'm going through these certifications, I'm like my stuff's terrible. Like I've got to do better here. It's the cobbler's children. I feel like I can tell you how to do it, but I haven't done it for myself. But anyway, so you have traditional digital.

**Mary:**  
So my thing is, where do you fall with your business? Should you be? Because there is just so much money to go around, right? Like we only have so much money and at some point, like you can't, you just can't do it all. Like you really can't do it all. So I don't know, I've just really been struggling because, as prices are getting higher and things, you know, I only have so much money and time, attention, and energy. So where do you go with it? And that's kind of where my thought question is: where are we going with all this?

**Kira:**  
I mean, and I would assume that with what's going on just in the world and in the US right now, marketing, I mean your technique needs to change because people are thinking differently too, right?

**Mary:**  
They are, and I will fully admit that. You know, some people are really happy and have more hope now. Some people are not. Like, it's just been like a seesaw for the past several months, and it's just going to continue. And I think we talked about this in a previous podcast, or you and I've discussed like at some point this year, I'm going to have to just stop marketing, meaning I'm not going to try to break through any noise, late October, early November. People are going to be really hard to reach.

**Kira:**  
They are because there is an election and things are going to. People are just going to be wherever they are and, you know, wherever it falls, there's going to be some happy people and some not happy people. And I also think that people are sort of waiting a little bit on the spending to find out what happens. You know, because they don't know how that's going to affect the economy.

**Mary:**  
Right.

**Kira:**  
So, given all those things, we have to rethink the strategy for the rest of the year.

**Mary:**  
We do. And you know also, talking about the idea of, you know, are we in a recession or not? Is it media-driven? Are we going to go into a silent recession, which I think you and I talked about? My great friend Renan and I had that conversation. I loved this, you know, a couple of weeks ago. Bottom line is where do we go?

**Kira:**  
And I think a lot of it depends on your product. So, for example, if I were your headshot business, or if I decide to ever get off my tush and start a headshot line in Richmond because I bought the sites and I've just never done it.

**Mary:**  
I remember, yeah.

**Kira:**  
I just renewed them and I'm like, huh, I forgot about all those. But you know, I got a great tip from this group I'm in, and I love that I'm in this mastermind group where nobody else is a photographer, because they're always like, wow, you do this and you do that. And it's kind of neat to see them actually realize that I'm not just a photographer that takes pictures and uploads them to Dropbox or something. That has been one of

 the cool things.

**Mary:**  
Civilians don't get it.

**Kira:**  
I was, I was, just a sidebar. I was on a job yesterday or the day before where the lady was like, so how long have you been doing this? And I tell her, I'm like, oh, you know, around 14 years. And she's like, oh, so it's been a really great side hustle. And I was like, oh, no, ma'am, this is my full-time job. And the guy over there was like, do you just so? Wow, like, do you just love taking pictures? I was like, no job, you're right. I don't think people do understand that, and so I'm in this group and we're trying to. But one of the things that I thought they said was if I were a headshot business, besides obviously your outside marketing meaning you're networking with your agencies and your companies and that type of stuff I would run ads on LinkedIn. I would only run ads on LinkedIn. I wouldn't bother with Facebook, I wouldn't bother with Insta, I wouldn't bother with TikTok, any of that. But I would 100% just run ads and invest money in, obviously, Google ads. Or if you want to go Bing, you could go Bing. The only thing, Google is like 80% of the market.

**Mary:**  
But the thing about Bing is if you are above a certain age and you go to Best Buy and you buy a computer, they all come with Bing preloaded. And if you're not savvy and these are the baby boomers they are going to Best Buy, they buy a computer. Bing has a deal with HP. They all come loaded with Bing. They're not going to change their browser, they just want to get online. They just want to see their grandkids. So there is some. There's some direct market, like there's some data, like actual numbers, where, yeah, I believe you that it's a small group, but they're the buying group.

**Kira:**  
Now, maybe not for headshots, by the way. But there is something to be said for me. First of all, I also think it's important to diversify your money. So I don't, if I put everything into Google and for some reason my Google gets shut down on me like something goes wrong, I'm running no ads. At least if I have diverted 10, 20% into Bing, where I know most of our boomers are, because they buy the computer with Bing loaded and they don't know how to go to another browser. They don't care. Point being that it would make sense for me to diversify that money.

**Mary:**  
But LinkedIn, I was like, yeah, if I launched a headshot business where I just set it up, kind of like one day a week or every other week or whatever, just did headshots in the studio, I would only market it on LinkedIn. Yeah, 100%. In fact, my efforts on LinkedIn have just been to attract the corporate and the individual headshot market. I can't even begin to tell you the cool thing about LinkedIn is it doesn't have the noise that Facebook has.

**Kira:**  
Correct. It's becoming the professional person's social media place to post news about business and work and achievements and things that are going on without all the garbage that Facebook comes with. I'm actually enjoying just browsing through the feed of LinkedIn more.

**Mary:**  
Yes, so are you running ads on LinkedIn now?

**Kira:**  
I am not running ads on LinkedIn right now. Right now, the content that I'm posting is business headshot leaning towards or my business talking about my business.

**Mary:**  
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you may want to set a budget. I mean, even if you just did $100 a month and ran ads because LinkedIn is one of the least expensive places to run ads versus like, you would get so much more bang for your buck on LinkedIn than like Facebook. $100 a month on Facebook, you might as well just flush it down the toilet. Like that's not enough money.

**Kira:**  
Did you learn anything about how on LinkedIn, you'll get a sponsored message from a company? You know that, like, basically, it's something that searches all these profiles and then sends a message automatically. I wonder if we could do that. I wonder if you could message companies like pay LinkedIn for that kind of advertising where you can message auto message companies, because I see that it is paid content.

**Mary:**  
So, anyway, I'm interested in that too. I think that that comes from your end. So what I think and I don't know for sure but I think what that is, it's obviously AI. So what that is, is that company that's getting you direct messaging you. Yeah, they're paying for access to you, so they're paying for access, but they have a bot, or they have created, they've generated a GPT that knows how to search for that, so they're searching for people that are interested in or whatever, and then so it's a combination of both, I think, but I could be wrong. I mean, LinkedIn absolutely could offer that. I don't know. I've never advertised on LinkedIn, so I don't know what the, like, I go into meta to set it up.

**Kira:**  
I think we should start considering it is what you're saying, like, yeah.

**Mary:**  
No, I 100%. If you all want to do branding, headshots, that type of work, even maybe some commercial, I would 100% go to LinkedIn and just put in a budget. It could be $5 a day, honestly, you really need to pay to play, so everybody gets that. But I would 100% start advertising on LinkedIn because it's going to probably get more expensive, and I think now's the time to do it.

**Kira:**  
Yeah, once it becomes more predictable, I also predict, yeah, me, I mean like my crystal ball, but I'm also predicting there's going to be a major shift in people changing jobs starting fourth quarter because of the election. Yeah, so people are going to be looking for new headshots for the beginning of the fourth quarter. So I would start now to build up your, because the more you can, the more consistent you are, the better you're going to rank on LinkedIn or Google or whatever. You all know that. So start now, because I do think there's going to be a lot of job changes happening right around the election.

**Mary:**  
Well, I will be ready. I will be ready and waiting.

**Kira:**  
You should.

**Mary:**  
So the funny thing is for me because I had such great success with Facebook funnels years and years ago and have consistently had some this year they've been dismal. Like, it's the first time I've ever done it that they did not at least pay for themselves. Like, it was dismal for me. And it's because a lot of things. First of all, everything's changing so fast at meta that I can't get access to the people I need to. Also, photographers have saturated social media with these ads, whereas when I first started running them, they were obviously like, you know, they were. When I first started running them, I was one of the only people doing them in my area at least. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So now we're just we ignore them because they're everywhere. So it's hard to get through.

**Kira:**  
But my decision I think I talked to you briefly about this a couple weeks ago but everybody that I spoke to in this group and then they're in the seminar I 100% think I'm going to go back to direct mail. I'm going to go back to direct mail. I'm not even I'm not saying I'm dropping digital marketing. Of course, I'm going to have a blog. Of course, I'm going to work on my SEO. Of course, I'm going to run my Google ads. Of course, I'm going to post, but there's too much noise is what you're saying and you just want to get directly to them.

**Mary:**  
Well, and let's think about this: my product, where it starts meaning selling paintings, they're not looking on Facebook. So what I'm thinking about doing is just really putting the majority of my money, time, energy, effort into direct mail, which is crazy.

**Kira:**  
Well, they say everything is cyclical.

**Mary:**  
It is, and I'm still going to do my emails and my newsletter and all the stuff that I'm already doing, but I'm not going to try to do digital marketing in the respect of funnels and that type of stuff anymore. I'm going to invest in hard mail pieces for a couple of reasons. Number one: I don't think that my average client, my family portrait client guys, I'm not talking about headshots or I'm talking about family portrait client I don't think that they're looking on Facebook ads for a company that they expect to come in and drop 10K and up. Right? Like that's not where you're looking.

**Kira:**  
No, and I don't even think the newsfeed makes any. I don't think anyone understands the algorithm of the content we're getting at all.

**Mary:**  
At all, and I think that Meta's made it so hard. Like this last time, I had such a bad experience with it when I put in my parameters that I've always used home values and children in home and salaries and education and all the things that I use that identify my ideal client. I literally got someone in Louisiana that lived, like you know, in an apartment. I mean, like, I'm like, come on, what are you doing? I'm paying out the nose for these ads now too, like they've gotten so expensive

.

**Kira:**  
So I really think I am and the big I am, and you're right things do kind of change. I 100% that. Yeah, things. Well, I mean records are back. Yeah, records, books, all the stuff you know. We keep saying that. Why are record sales higher than ever? Why are book sales, physical book sales higher? Yeah, exactly so you know, the more AI, the more digital and the more fake, the more real people want to get.

**Mary:**  
Certain people and I think those are our clients right, they want actual prints, they don't want digital files. Those are our clients. But I think we're just out of place as small business owners where I feel like there was a time when I could do all of it, but I don't think I can do that anymore. I think I'm going to have to pick a lane, if that makes sense.

**Kira:**  
Well, I mean, we do that, we. We specialize all the time our efforts, right? Like we specialize. You know, we've talked so many times about specializing within your business, so that you know you because you're just diluting your effort when you're marketing and when you're focusing your skills on every single type of photography out there. So why wouldn't we do that with our marketing?

**Mary:**  
And really, you know, I've been thinking a lot about this lately because I have a lot of like, a lot of like budding ideas coming out of me lately, which is exciting, but it's also very hard because every morning I wake up with a new idea that I want to go explore. And it is so hard and I've told myself what you've got to do is just get that one. You need to focus your efforts on that one idea, the one idea that you think you can make work and function first, right, and then move forward. So maybe that's what you need to do: focus on this one area direct marketing until it's just gangbusters.

**Kira:**  
Right.

**Mary:**  
I agree, I kind of agree with you on that. Yeah, and then move on to additional things. If you need to, yeah, you can add them in.

**Kira:**  
And I'm not saying that I'm just going to abandon all digital stuff, because I'm going to continue to do emails and all this stuff and I'm going to continue to work on my SEO and I think I consistently need to have Google ads running just to rank because the bottom line is that you want to do well on Google. If you're not doing a combination of paid and organic, you're not going to rank. It's just the way it goes. Like you can, you have to have a good combination of both and, as I'm going through Google University, essentially learning all this stuff like that's the bottom line. If you aren't doing a combination of both, you're never going to get the SEO aspirations that you want. I mean, certainly if you're in a really tiny town and you have a really maybe, but that's what Google wants. They want that combination of paid and organic. So the good news is is that usually your organic search becomes your best lead. If you go into your analytics, that's your best lead indicator. But it's because you have that combination of at least some sort of paid stuff going on.

**Mary:**  
Right, if that makes sense. But I just, what is old is new again. But also it's so noisy and it's so hard and it's so expensive and I'm not hitting the right client. And I was thinking about it. I was like my clients are not on Facebook looking for me. They're just not. I mean, they may follow my page, but they've already become a client. That defeats the purpose.

**Kira:**  
But somebody said something in the seminar I was at last week and I thought, wow, that's funny. She goes, if I get a really nice direct mail piece, she goes, if you pop up as an email or on my Facebook, I just scroll past you within a split second, like not even a second you're gone. However, if you put something in my mailbox, I might grab it, look at it on the way to the bin. Like I'm going to throw it in the recycle bin, but at least I look at it for at least several seconds.

**Mary:**  
Well, that's what I do is I pick up the mail and I cycle through everything. I cycle through everything and then I save, I pull the coupons or whatever off of something that I would like to go look at and then I go throw everything else away that I don't need. But I definitely put eyes on all of it.

**Kira:**  
Correct. You know what I mean? Whereas and you're looking, you're putting eyes on it for more than a fraction of a second. So that's better marketing dollars spent for me. You know, even if I create a piece that costs me a dollar let's say a dollar, something or whatever a piece and I send out 10,000 pieces, even if I only got 0.2% respond and then 0.2% of that book. I would still be okay because of my average.

**Mary:**  
You have to evaluate what works for you, but I've just been doing a lot of work on it and a lot of research. And I also think that, whereas, yes, I could use videos and I can use pretty pictures and I can show portraits hanging on walls which, guys, I fully all I think all that's very important I really, really do. What I will say, though, is that I feel like if I get a piece, if they engage with the piece, and then I have a QR code that they can zap, and then they can look at a video of Jamie painting or us installing, or a client's testimonial, that's going to give me a much better chance that they're going to actually become a warm or hot lead, versus just a quick video or ad on Facebook or Insta or whatever.

**Kira:**  
Yeah, I think that's fascinating. I mean, here's what sucks, guys, is that you spend all this time learning about different ways to market your business over the years until you feel like you have a good understanding of Facebook ads, or you have a good understanding of Instagram and TikTok and that sort of thing, and then it's just not only do those companies change the algorithm constantly so that you don't know which end is up anymore, but eventually it's not even working anymore because people are, like tired of using it. So what has stayed true the whole time is direct marketing. Like direct marketing, there's not a whole lot that can change about it. You make the piece, you put postage on it, it goes to place.

**Mary:**  
Now the one thing that has been a problem lately in Tallahassee specifically, I know is that we have chaos at our post office right now. So there is, we haven't had a postmaster, general or whatever for the region like, and it has been. They've sent people from whatever, like high hill that the post office people live in, to come down and try to figure it out.

**Kira:**  
Old post office hills, yeah, so the kings and queens of the post office monarchy, they're coming down.

**Mary:**  
Anyway. So they've come down to try to figure it out because people in Tallahassee, in the county, in Leon County, not getting all their mail, really, yeah, and it's a huge, huge problem, not to mention the theft, and know the theft and stuff like that that we have in our boxes. So I would say that if you are doing direct marketing, take it to the post office or, if you're paying a service, make sure that you know that you understand how they're getting it to the post office.

**Kira:**  
That's a great point. Yeah, because, honestly, sometimes that stuff just gets lost, sometimes it doesn't get picked up, you know, from those blue boxes, because that's where I would dump a huge amount of mail. I would dump it in a blue box, right, but I will never use those blue boxes again. No, I don't. I use my, if it's my personal stuff, my actual mailbox. But yeah, I would highly. I mean, if you're going to do it, it just depends on the level. Right, I will have to use a service because I'm looking at 10 to 25,000 pieces.

**Mary:**  
Oh, yeah, there's services. Yeah, I'm also going to work with a highly curated company that will give me a very highly curated list.

**Kira:**  
Do you have you? Have you just coming back to services? I want to come back to the list. Have you found any? Any services that? Is there any you're ready to mention? Are you still researching?

**Mary:**  
I'm still reaching. The one I'm going to work with here is actually a local company. Um, I will fully admit, guys, it's probably higher and then it's, it's not incredibly affordable for your average small business because it's it's design and it's the service. However, I do think that there are some out there. I don't know if Marathon Press still does it. They used to do it and when we used to do a lot of direct mail, they handled all that for us.

**Kira:**  
We should find out.

**Mary:**  
I should. Yeah, we'll have to look into that because they used to. If not, I would probably call someone at Marathon and ask who they recommend because they're great friends with our industry. I'd love to support them. So I would reach out to them and ask who they recommend. But there are some companies that are gonna be more reasonable. But I do think it's important to get a really great list. And so the person that I'm going to be working

 with he's out of Colorado. His lists are like gold, evidently. And again, these are all people that I'm meeting in this group and they're using him. And like this guy that I said that's in this deal with Mark Cuban, like he runs a really high-end outdoor lighting company and he uses this guy. So I'm going to do it, but I've had to really sit down and analyze it. Think about it, because it is going to be a huge investment for me.

**Kira:**  
And again, Mary, I have sat in a restaurant nearby Mark Cuban.

**Mary:**  
Oh, well, look at you, Mark Cuban was at a table two tables away when I was in DC, I know. So I basically feel like I'm ready to invest at a level that Mark Cuban, just by association of distance, yeah, well, you know, I mean, that's one way to look at that. You're practically in business with Mark Cuban as well.

**Kira:**  
Basically, basically, he's ready, he's ready to invest.

**Mary:**  
Yeah, well, I don't know, we'll ask him, but it's been exciting. Like I was sitting in this group, Kira, it's like, cause you go around and you talk about yourself and they kind of I mean, it's tough love, like. They're like, okay, why are you doing this, why are you doing that, and why aren't you doing this and doing that? And I'm like, everybody's like saying what they do and I'm like, I'm like in a full sweat and I'm like, oh God, yeah, there I go. You know, I'm this. And the cool thing was them going whoa, I can't. This is what you do. This is amazing. Why aren't you charging more? Why aren't you working all over the world? I'm like, oh, this, y'all are being so kind, thank you for being so nice to me. You know, like it just felt so cool, but it was just a really cool walk away.

**Kira:**  
The LinkedIn they were talking about the LinkedIn thing and there's a couple of companies in there that deal, that do business services and they're like that's the only place they spend money. And I'm like, oh, okay, cool, that makes sense. Why didn't I think about that? Like, if I really want to develop that, I need to do that. And then I was already talking, as you know, a couple of weeks ago, about maybe investing in this direct mail piece. And after going to this seminar and sitting there and having every single one of them say, don't even bother anymore with that type of marketing, this is exactly what I do. If I was you, I was like, okay, these people, they know they're in a different industry, but it's still a plus.

**Mary:**  
Yeah, cause there's, you know, they're definitely seven, eight-figure businesses, so they obviously are doing something right.

**Kira:**  
I think it makes sense because you're, you're this, guys, this is different than placing an ad in like a neighborhood magazine. You know what I mean, which is nothing wrong with that either, by the way. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think, well, let's make the distinction. Because you're like, well, I kind of do that because I take the cover photo on the magazine for the neighborhood and the influential neighborhood. It sounds like that's direct mail, but not exactly. Right. We're talking about your own piece of mail that is going directly to a qualified neighborhood of clients. Right, yeah, and a quality piece. Now it depends on your business. But I'm not going to send out and no offense to any of the companies but an inexpensive 4x6 postcard that's on flimsy paper that does not represent the business I am.

**Mary:**  
I'm going to have to do a magalog or a folded piece or something in an envelope or something that also has to take them to a QR code or something that's taking them to a video, and it's so many pieces. Well, one reason why you want to have the content inside rather than on the front or the back is because those mail machines ruin the stuff, and so if it's going to have like weird tire marks all over the top of it, they're not going to see the content, it's going to look like garbage or it's going to get wet or wipe off or something weird. So, yeah, a folded piece or an envelope or something like that. It's nice to get a really pretty envelope in the mail.

**Kira:**  
I'm always going to open an envelope and not a white window envelope. But if it's a beautiful color envelope and it looks like it's been handwritten or like there's not just a sticker on the front, I'm going to open the envelope. I'm going to open the envelope. I might end up throwing it in the bin, don't get me wrong, but I'm going to open it.

**Mary:**  
And again. It's all you know. But again, going back to those magazines, now, if you're doing that, the one thing I will say is everywhere, anywhere, every day is crucial. So if you're in that neighborhood magazine and you're mailing to that neighborhood and you're in the kid's school auction, bam, bam, bam, I mean that's what we have to do because, right, we have to have five touch points before they're going to engage.

**Kira:**  
Well, that's all that. Those are all touch points. Yeah, you know, the mail piece, the magazine, the school auction, the neighbor's house or you know all that matters, like it really, and they happen to run up across an add-on or a post on your social media, all those touch points matter. So I would say keep doing what you're doing.

**Mary:**  
Something interesting that one of the people in the group said and I thought this was I haven't figured it out yet, but this is more of a PR perspective, which I don't know if we've talked a lot about on this podcast, but it's something I fully believe in. I've talked when I teach. I talk about, you know, trying to have that spot on the morning show where I talk about how to take better pictures of your kids at Halloween with your iPhone or whatever, but establishing ourselves as the expert right, talking to a garden club, how to take better pictures of your roses, whatever it is, but talking. This guy has made a ton of money and been super successful and he has essentially started Facebook groups, highly targeting areas, and then just kind of, just coincidentally, kind of slipping his product in. So, for example, if he's, I'm trying to think of a good way to do it, like this one person, oh, what is it they did?

**Kira:**  
They did something so weird, like they did some holistic stuff, like they sold supplements of some sort. So they would start Facebook groups. So they would call it like Living Healthier in Wyndham Group. Okay, and Wyndham is a neighborhood that you want to target, Living Healthier in Wyndham Group. Now they have to have a couple people they know in Wyndham, get them to join, get their friends to join. Do some fun giveaways, start talking, get people going. Do some fun giveaways, start talking, get people going. Oh my God, I bought Mary's XYZ supplements and they are just changing my life. I have so much energy I can run around after my kids all day, or my hair is full or whatever it is.

**Mary:**  
So he started these little groups and got like moms essentially to kind of run them and talk about how great his product is. And then people start joining and all of a sudden they're going, oh, I want, can you tell me more about that hair supplement or that, whatever it is, whatever you know, solving that problem, right, because they didn't know they had that problem. And all of a sudden their friend goes, oh, my gosh, my hair is so much fuller. And they're like, oh, I want fuller hair or whatever it is. It's working, because you can't go on TikTok these days without getting, I can't go on TikTok without getting an ad to make my hair thicker or get rid of my saggy chin.

**Kira:**  
Yeah, those are all that. Mine are all memes and ads attacking me for having perimenopause.

**Mary:**  
Oh, okay, so you're in that. You're in that talk.

**Kira:**  
I'm beyond. There's no hope for me. I'm beyond that.

**Mary:**  
But what a cool idea. I mean, what if you started a, or you know, was able to help get started a group, and this guy, this woman that I'm talking about, each of the moderators, every time a client comes from that group, they get a little percentage or kind of a bonus, or they kind of just have to get some passive income from it, essentially, every time it comes from the group. And she's just started all these little groups on Facebook and they might have 20 people, they might have 50, but she gets the sales and they, you know. And then she said some of these groups have really grown, where they do meetups and they get together and they're swapping recipes, so she's creating these little tiny communities. But so she's creating these little tiny communities but subliminally, always selling her supplements.

**Kira:**  
Yeah, that makes sense.

**Mary:**  
I was like, well, and that's free marketing, guys, that's digital, that's working, that's working the system there, isn't it? But let's be honest, a lot of those MLMs have been doing that for a long time. We just didn't really pick up on, oh, a hundred percent working, yeah, and I don't know

 how it could work. But I mean, if you had a group, I mean obviously seniors, that's what I was gonna say seniors, like you know, seniors are like something funny and catchy, like, help, I'm a high school senior mom group in Richmond, Virginia, or something. Because people go, oh, yes, I am, and you know, tell me more, because I don't know, this is uncharted territory. Or even, you know, if you want to do it for children's portraits, especially if you're really into the stages, you know the one, two, three, you know all the stages, you know all that. Because, oh, that's what it was. Somebody said and I don't know that this would work for me but to start a group.

**Kira:**  
And then it started essentially as a clothing swap, like a clothing swap group for children, kids. So, oh, I just had a baby. Oh, my five-year-old's grown out of their clothes, oh, I have a five-year-old but my eight-year-old's that they do clothing swap. Instead of donating the clothes, they're repurposing the clothing to each other, um, and always talk. And then somebody's always talking about how great this baby swaddle is and she's selling a shit ton of baby swaddles because, would it work this way? And I'm totally spitballing and you can be like, Kira, that bring it on, it's not, I haven't done it, I haven't done this, so I don't know. Well, could you do it for you? Could you do 18 summers, Richmond, that's kind of like neighborhood or 18 summers, you know, for a school district, you know, or something.

**Mary:**  
You know what I mean.

**Kira:**  
And then you, it would be you, but then some other high-end products or small business owners that also are in, like, target, their target audience would be moms, you know, trying to get, make sure kids don't miss things.

**Mary:**  
You know what I mean. Well, and that could be, that could obviously be children's or child, you know, children team clothing stores. It could obviously be sports coaches, like people that privately train you for swimming or swimming, yeah, boys coaches, yes, guitar lessons, the acting, we have our children's theater that do like spark, or things like, oh, oh, oh, SAT, ACT coaches.

**Kira:**  
I'm like, I want to write all of this down because, honestly, that's all. If you're paying for an ACT coach, you're my client. Equestrian classes, yes, I mean, come on, or anybody that's doing travel anything, or these kids that are, I mean, that would be the group. Right, so there's 18 summers or there's 13 first days of school, or whatever we want to call it.

**Mary:**  
But yeah, any type of tutor, any type of tutoring services, when you're paying private tutors or SAT coaches, take it for someone who's done it. That ain't cheap. I mean, you're not doing that. You know what I mean, like I don't know.

**Kira:**  
So you could be building a common target audience, a community, a community right. It's definitely a community, and you basically be creating a little bit of a BNI group with a little bit with local. You know, like I'm already. I'm sitting here going like the music store that's next door to me that has lessons. The coaches, the young actors, theater, which is like one of my big clients, you know, with all of their theater. Oh, yeah, yeah, if you offer children's cooking classes, we have one of those little groups here.

**Mary:**  
I'm literally taking notes, guys, because that's what I need is another project. I'm excited. Yeah, right in. But I mean, all you have to do is, so I have dinner Monday night with one of my biggest, she's one of my biggest outside salespeople, right? She offers tons of business to me and I'm going to talk to her and say, hey, so would you like to start this group? Because we would essentially start it together as admins, but it all is going to have to look like she's kind of running it and we could get some of her friends, but she's going to benefit, she's going to make money every time something comes through that group.

**Kira:**  
Why not? I mean, if I get a new client from it and they come in and spend, I am happy to give Katie a check, like you know what I mean. She's an independent, she's an outside contractor. She's a salesperson. She gets 1099, just like any, you know. So I'm just, I don't know. Like I think it could work. I mean Tallahassee, you know Tallahassee moms. I mean, well, the only issue that we've got some Tallahassee mom groups, and I think every city has these groups, you know, Huntsville moms or Richmond moms or whatever, and it's where people post things like looking for an affordable newborn photographer. Exactly, that is not the clientele we'd want to market.

**Mary:**  
What I would think we would do is we would get together, we'd grab some coffee dates with some of these other small business owners or whatever, explain to them what we're going to do and create the group, have them all invite their clients out of their Facebook group or Facebook friends or whatever. Invite them all to the group so that we are all working with the curated families and that it's an invite-only.

**Kira:**  
Yeah, and I kind of think it needs to be private because you do want to keep it at a certain level, and I haven't figured all that out yet. I'm going to reach back out to one of these because we can. The nice thing about this group is they're so giving. I can reach out and go, hey, could we talk more about that? Could you walk me through it?

**Mary:**  
Cotillion, that was another one, because here, Cotillion's huge, and if you're in Cotillion you're probably in one of these four schools and I know how much Cotillion costs. So those are the people I want in this group. So I'm not sure how to keep it curated to that level, because I've got to curate it at that level. Like, it's not for.

**Kira:**  
Well, I think by finding those like-minded businesses with the same audience and it had. I think that making it private, making it searchable but invite-only, would be fine. You have to know someone to get in, kind of thing. Or you know, when they fill out the form, like I am a current client of, and it has the main businesses, ooh, yes, now that's a good selling point for the businesses to partner.

**Mary:**  
Right, and then say I'm a current client of, and then they'll say, you know, Kira Derryberry Photography, but that means that all of my clients, we can tell how many clients my clients didn't have. You know what I mean. We can track that that way. I love that. And then that way people can apply by themselves without being invited, but they would have to pass that to be able to come in.

**Kira:**  
So look at us coming up with a whole idea.

**Mary:**  
Well, and if you're in a smaller town, guys, so for us, I think, Kira's exactly. But if you're in a smaller town and if you offer minis or you offer things that have that more, you know, that lower end, but you just have your more volume and your entry-level price, why not make a group and run it? Because I could see if I were in a very small town where you know I really could accommodate anything from a $100 budget on up, that would be a different type of group I would run. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's why the clothing swap thing works, because she wants all the moms, because her product starts at $34. You know what I'm saying. So mine would have to be curated a little bit differently. But if I were doing it for another type of business, I would want as many people as I could get. You know, it depends on where you are.

**Kira:**  
Maybe it's, let's call it a collective, right? I love that. Let's say, oh, I like that a lot. Yeah, so it's a small business collective that serves a specific audience. In this case, we're talking about families with children from anywhere from zero to 18 years that will be participating in extracurricular things, or families that will be making extra. I mean, you could have a travel agent in there. You can have a travel agent. We also could have certain private schools in there.

**Mary:**  
Yes, there's private schools. You could have somebody who, maybe they, like the travel agents, could set up special cruise deals for people, Disney cruises.

**Kira:**  
Disney cruises, like, listen, yeah, exclusive to this market.

**Mary:**  
Right, and one more thought on that. I think, anytime you can add value to those groups and keep them, so having at least one, if you are appointed part of the collective, that you have to promise that once a month you're going to get on and give something of nurturing or value. So I can get on and talk about how to take better pictures with your iPhone or XYZ, can get on and talk about how to make the best chocolate chip cookie in the world, or the number one thing you should look for when you buy your child their first guitar or whatever it is. Making it an education giving

 platform, because the more you give, the more you get. I truly believe that you can't just have ads coming up. It has to be a give. Everybody has to post some tips. Everybody has to post some specials.

**Kira:**  
Oh my God, I love this.

**Mary:**  
You know, something that only they're going to get because they're in this exclusive, they're a client of this exclusive collective.

**Kira:**  
Yes, right, and to be a member of the collective, oh my God. And if you're a member of the collective, then you get some type of special when you go to those businesses, something. It could be if you come to me that you get a little tiny, cute frame that you can put a wallet in, or it could be. We get half price on your session fee, whatever it is. 10 off your next clothing purchase, whatever it is. You're gonna get a free holiday gift. You know something, some holiday gift from you know whatever. I mean we hair salons. Okay, hair salons, spray tan. I'm sorry, there are teenagers and whatever.

**Mary:**  
Oh yeah, I'm just like sidebar. I am in such an explosive idea space, but like, no, like I keep too many ideas to. Actually, I know, I know, I know my mind is I have so many things I want to do right now and I'll be very, and I said this a million times on here, guys but it's so much that it's overwhelming so I'm doing nothing. So I really need to write it down and I got to start somewhere.

**Kira:**  
I'm writing the notes. I've got to start somewhere because I'm just immobilized by all of it. It's overwhelming to me and it's so heavy and it causes me so much anxiety and then anxiety to depression. So I've done nothing. So can I share?

**Mary:**  
I did see my therapist this morning. I'm seeing her about once every month and a half now and this is exactly what we talked about. We talked about the fact that I don't have, I need time to enact ideas that I really wanna work on, but I also can't get away. My business is slower now and like at this moment, and so I have a little more time. But also I've got some personal things, like Lucy starting school and like trying to, you know, plan a friend's birthday party and trying to, like, there's just finished your dad's birthday party and like there's just multiple things that are spinning right now for me. And plus I've got PPA and I've got projects with PPA. I also took on another organization, which I'll tell you about later, but you know, I don't know, I'm a dummy, but I did all those things. Oh, but I have this extra time now that I could really work on this thing.

**Mary:**  
And she says to me, she goes, Kira, when are we working in time for rest? When are you working? Because I was just complaining about my neck and my shoulders and my spine hurting and she was explaining to me about cortisol and how stress, when your body is full of cortisol, that's why your neck starts hurting the way it is and I'm like I haven't done anything.

**Kira:**  
Stress when your body is full of cortisol. That's why your neck starts hurting the way it is. I'm like I haven't done anything. So she's like where are you working in your rest? And I was like, well, I mean, we're going to see friends tonight.

**Mary:**  
She goes, that's not rest. When are you working in your rest? Like, when are you lying down? So as soon as I got off the call, I went and laid down for a minute.

**Kira:**  
Good for you. Well, I just said if you're ready. But no, absolutely, and she's not wrong. It's like, well, oh, but I was in Boston this past weekend with friends and yeah, but I was running 300 miles an hour. And I'm sorry, when you're with other people, you're on. You know even your family, but even you know you're just, you know you're like, well, I was off four days. I was in St Augustine with my family. Well, that's not rest. No, as much as you love your family, you know what I mean, that's not rest.

**Mary:**  
Here's what she suggested, and so I'll pass it on to you, okay? Because it's going to be hard to hear. The thing that you're really excited about, if you don't have time to execute it right now, even though you think you have time to execute it right, but you have other obligations and responsibilities that are in the current. It can wait. That's what she said, it can wait. And I was like, but I don't want it to wait. I want it to wait. I was like, but it's the only thing I have that no one is waiting on me for. Like, nobody needs. It's not a deadline that requires me to give something to someone. It's, you know, she goes. Then August is just a really busy month for you and you're gonna have, it's gonna, it's gonna have to wait because you can't. You need the time, this extra time that you have for work being a little bit slower, you need to rest, you need to rest and I was like, oh, and especially with the holiday season coming up, it's around the corner. I mean, like, you know the shooting season, it's on us.

**Kira:**  
Yeah, so I'm telling you that you're full of ideas and you're like, but I'm not starting anything and it's probably because you have other things that are on your plate as well.

**Mary:**  
Thank you, that's right. You're right and you feel guilty for not doing those other things. If you start this other thing, it's like, yeah, but I really need to finish that thing. Right, if I start this thing and then you start to feel bad because you're neglecting your actual responsibilities, trying to put on new ones and you need to create space between those two things I just got on that, I'm like, oh my God, I got to do my critiques. Oh my God, I've got to do this. And then I'm working on some stuff with PPA and oh my God, I've got to do this and. But I want to do all that. Yeah, you're right. I mean all those other things, unfortunately, I have to do. There are deadlines and I've committed and they have to get done. This stuff can wait. Like, honestly, talking about all this, if I could start getting ready because it's not probably going to happen this year, for a couple of reasons. A, I think it's a lot and it's only one or two of us right. The other piece is I don't think I am probably not going to spend any time, energy or money marketing end of October, beginning in November. I don't think. I think I'm wasting money. Every professional I've talked to has said the same thing. But I think, with the election, that whatever I'm trying to mail or send or do, it's just going to be overwhelmed by all the stuff.

**Kira:**  
You know what I mean? So I don't know, but all stuff that I'm going to keep thinking about and writing down because I am going to get it done. I also have a whole plan for video content and stuff which I've never done. Well, we say we're going to do video content all the time for three years, three years.

**Mary:**  
I will say that the things that get through to me on my Facebook me as a user are groups. Because people do that at everyone, which annoys me, you know, but you know, but it is, it is coming. I'll click on it if it's something that I wanted to see, and I won't if I don't. But I do think that I mean now, like everything, you'll work really hard on this and then they'll change something and they'll make this hard to do, or they'll make it so that the groups don't show up as much, or they'll fix it so you can. Oh yeah, right, right now, I think it's a great. It's some work, and so I use the word free sparingly, but it is something that you could do, that could really be beneficial, and I do think you have some time before that will change, because it would be so small in the meta world. My little group is going to be a speck, right, but as they grow and as people do it. But anyway, it's something I think could be really beneficial to us as visual creators, and anytime we can partner with other local businesses, this may be the perfect excuse. All of you guys out there who I've been preaching to for years saying, get out and partner with businesses and you've been too afraid. Now you have something to bring to the table that's going to benefit them. It's a win-win for sure, and it might just start a great relationship with a partner in business that you've been wanting to partner with for years anyway. So I think it's a lot of, there's a lot of good I think could come from it.

**Kira:**  
So there you go.

**Mary:**  
I think it could be great.

**Kira:**  
And that's a wrap.

**Mary:**  
And that's a wrap. I think we've dropped so much knowledge and we didn't even know what we were talking about.

**Kira:**  
Well, you did, I didn't.

**Mary:**  
Well, a lot of this came to me as I've been sitting here. I was like, oh, what about this? Oh, what about that?

**Kira:**  
This is why it's always good to have somebody to talk through ideas with, because they just evolve. They

 evolve. So, hey guys, exactly, hey guys, if you listen to us. If you have some ideas, share them. Let's all collaborate. Let's make sure, speaking of cool ideas, let's make sure we remind everybody that both of us are teaching at Imaging USA. Oh, yeah, that's right.

**Mary:**  
Miss Mary is going to be on the platform speaking about AI marketing, which I feel like if you've been dropping all kinds of like little bitty hints about like stuff that you're just like percolating. So I'm really, I think you guys are hearing all of it first. Honestly, I'm working through my program on the podcast, so y'all get the first access.

**Kira:**  
Yeah, I know. Well, if you want to hear more and more of a deep dive into it, Mary's going to be doing that. I'm just going to be teaching you how to talk to the thing. I'm going to be teaching a full-day class on Thursday, a full-day pre-con on, just you know, talking to the GPT and getting it to be customized for your business so that you could then take the things that Mary is talking about and apply them and have it all ready to go. So I think it's going to be an awesome class. My class is an additional cost and limited seating. Mary's got the big auditorium so you can just go and find a seat, but get there early because she's pretty popular.

**Mary:**  
Oh, that's not true at all. Please, please come, is what we're saying.

**Kira:**  
At some point they're going to announce if y'all are interested, I think. Well, I know he signed a contract. Jamie Hayes is going to be doing a full-day beginning learning how to brush oil paint, so watch for that.

**Mary:**  
Oh, I thought I saw that. So he's going to be doing that, probably Thursday too, right?

**Kira:**  
I don't know what day it's going to be, but that's definitely coming, so that's kind of exciting.

**Mary:**  
Yay, Jamie.

**Kira:**  
Yeah, okay, cool. Well, that means I'll get to see you early, if that happens too.

**Mary:**  
I hope so. That's the plan.

**Kira:**  
All right, okay, we are wrapping up and you guys can follow us at girl, at getyourshoetogether.com, and subscribe to us everywhere where podcasts are played. We will see you guys next time. Thanks, y'all.

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