Episode 190 - Pay Me, Maybe

This week, we're diving deep into the business of getting paid—because creating great work is only half the battle. From unpaid invoices to awkward follow-ups, Kira and Mary share real (and super frustrating) stories about chasing down payments and the systems they've put in place to avoid it in the future. Whether you're dealing with slow-paying clients or setting up workflows that protect your biz, this one’s packed with hard-earned wisdom for any photographer or creative entrepreneur.

We’re also talking automation, late fees, corporate vs. small biz red flags, and even dipping a toe into insurance and income protection for when life throws a curveball (or a broken foot).

Listen now and learn from our mistakes—so you don’t have to make them yourself!

This episode was written and performed by Mary Fisk-Taylor and Kira Derryberry, produced by Kira Derryberry and edited by Joel North.

Transcript

GYST - 190

Kira: [00:00:00] Welcome to Get Your Shoot together at the Photographers podcast, where we discuss studio business life, and keeping it all in line. I am Carrie Berry. And I'm 

Mary: Mary Fisk Taylor.  

Kira: Hi, Mary Fisk Taylor.

Mary: Hello. Hello, hello, hello. 

Kira: So we do this over for another week. Welcome to yet another Fresh Hell. Anyway, no, uh, we, uh, you know, we record this on Zoom, uh, for, for the listening for the listeners who don't know.

And, um, I usually send Mary like the link to sign on to Zoom on text, and I, I thought I had copied the link and instead it. Pasted like the last thing I pasted and it was like me using chat GBT to write a, um, follow up email for an unpaid invoice. Mary's reading it like 

Mary: I'm downstairs having, I, I, I'm visiting with friends.

I'm in New Hampshire. Actually, I spoke at the New Hampshire PPA. So if we have any new listeners from from New Hampshire [00:01:00] out there. Hi guys. It was so fun hanging out with you guys. Um, Jamie spoke. I spoke, we went to the banquet. It was fun, fun, fun. Got to hang out with the makis. Um, and I get the text for the Zoom, I thought, and I'm talking to Jeff and I'm like, oh, actually no, she's invoicing me for work.

I've evidently not paid for. Pay me what you owe me, Mary. It was a very nicely written letter, probably a little bit nicer than I would be at this point. Too nice. 

Kira: Yes. Probably too nice. Yeah. But I, I am trying to get paid. I am like, I hate having to chase down money. Oh, that is, that is the most uncomfortable, that is the most nerve wracking thing.

And it's not often, but I am, right now, I've got two situations, uh, where I am chasing down money and it's going on. You know, the better part of a year and, and that where's the limits? Okay. 

Mary: That was, this was why I wasn't saying like, so I said I would maybe not as, be as nice. It's not because, I [00:02:00] mean, of course people forget, you know, it's 30 days, 60 days, 90 days.

You guys, this has been going on since July for her. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That I think my patients would be a lot thinner than yours are right now. 

Kira: Well, I, I mean, I think, I think the issue is too, is like I move on, you know, like at some point you're, you're, you're working on other clients Correct. And you're getting, you're running other invoices and whatever, and then you go and you look at your open invoices every once in a while and you're like, damn, it's still, yeah.

Still not just mocking me from July of last year, you know? Plus you're seeing the images out there being used. Yes, the images are out there with the audacity. I mean, like, honestly. So I'll, I'll explain my two scenarios because you know, we're always advising people. I mean, I think it's a common question in classes like, you know, how, you know, invoicing, how do you, when do you get paid?

What is the, do you do to deposit? Do you take all of it upfront, get to, yeah. Right. And so, you know, I'm all, especially with headshot [00:03:00] sessions, because they're such a low investment, I always tell people to make sure that you get the entire, I take the entire amount up front for the session, for the minimum of the session, you know, and before you photograph them or at the session, I.

Nope. Before I photograph them that, that, I thought that's how they get the appointment on the book. Right? Right. And uh, because then they have teeth in the game, um, they're less likely to cancel, you know, or no show or that sort of, and they pay 

Mary: it ahead of time. And now you can upsell a little bit at the appointment 

Kira: itself.

Yeah. Yeah. And then, yes. Yeah. Money spent, money forgotten, forgot. Right. And so, but we all leave happy because I've been paid even if they don't buy anything else. I've delivered. Correct. You know, and, and you know, wipe, wipe our hands of the whole thing. We're all done. But there are those random scenarios that fall out of the norm, right?

Like, I mean, with family sessions, we do a session fee and that's their skin in the game. You know, with, with a corporate sessions, I do, uh, like big corporate sessions, I usually do a session fee, but if I'm being quite honest, I. I rarely have [00:04:00] any issues with, you know, getting paid by my corporates except these two corporate clients.

So scenario one. Was a magazine where I had, I had photographed someone they wanted to feature in the magazine, and rather than them pay for a whole new session, they wanted to purchase with permission, the rights to be able to use these images for the magazine. And it was with the, the, the subject's Permission.

Permission, yeah. Right, right. So they basically were purchasing the, the, not the copyrights to the images, but the usage rights Correct. To be able to, to use these in their nationally published magazine. And you know, I send a quote, they accept the quote, I, you know, finish the images, send them over. It's great.

It's not uncommon for it to be 30 days, you know, before you get paid. Yeah. Even 45 for something. Sometimes even, even 45. Yeah. Yeah. But then it just goes on and on and I start to search for the magazine to see if the issue ever came out. Sure did. Magazine came out. Images are being used on the cover, you know, [00:05:00] like you know all that.

And so I follow up. Nothing. Crickets. Follow up. Crickets. A couple months go by, follow up again. Nothing. I finally, I'm, I'm going through, you know, I'm kind of cleaning house a little bit. Um, with invoices, I do that like every quarter, you know, and so like I'm at the end of coming on the end of this quarter and I'm looking at the outstanding invoices and dammit, it's just there.

I'm 

Mary: just like still there. 

Kira: I know it's $1,500 and I know at this point they're probably not gonna pay me. Right. But I'm gonna try one more time to see. Yeah. And so I have chat, GPT write me an email and you know, I send it immediate response. Oh, I'm so sorry. You know, I was just talking to our new accounting person this week and they are, you know, we are gonna get this taken care of right away.

And I said, oh, that's fantastic. I mean, I'm just thrilled to hear from them, you know? Yeah. I'm like, that's, that's great. Uh, you know, will I, this is on a Monday. This is, and uh, I said, will, will they be able to do it by Friday? Because I'm [00:06:00] trying to get like a. Committed. We, we both agree to this now, you know, now you're engaged with me.

No response about Friday. So that was, so then I send them another email today like, hi, hope you had a great weekend. Notice that you haven't paid after you communicated with me last week. I mean, it's so, it's so easy to do. Like we make it so easy. I'm like, once again, here's the link. We can just do, just hit the 

Mary: little button.

Just hit the button, button, button, 

Kira: button. 

Mary: Here. It's maybe you should send a video with it next time of how they can pay. Like just, yeah, just like if, just hit this button and, um, if you're 

Kira: confused at all, here it is. Um, and, uh, bing, bang, boom. I mean, at this point, I, I would rather get a credit card payment online than, um, a check.

Yeah. Yeah. 'cause I, I just, I don't feel like I can count on it. So that's scenario one. Scenario two comes from a, I work with a lot of agencies in, in town and regionally, and this [00:07:00] one was another not uncommon situation where the agent, it's the agency's client. They're doing a website or a. Campaign for them.

They recruit me for photography and I invoice the client separately. I send the quote to the client, the client signs off, invoice the client separately, finish this big job for them, just a headshot job. And I. Uh, they're thrilled with it. I see that they downloaded the images. That's the other thing that I love about Pixie set for delivery system is you can see when they've downloaded it and you can see whose email has downloaded it.

So you're like, I know that you're getting my email. 

Mary: Yeah, 

Kira: right. Um, but then they dropped off the face of the Earth and it's tricky because they weren't your client to begin with. They were the agency's client to begin with, and you have very little, I had very little interaction with them as a. Sales person.

Yeah. You know, and so, uh, I contact the agency and they're like, okay, they haven't paid us either, [00:08:00] you know, we're, we're getting ghosted too. And this is, again, one from last year, late last year or mid last year. And, uh, eventually we're both reaching out over and over again and I just, I just give up. It's $2,500.

I just give up, you know, and then, uh, I reach out one more time to the agency and they say. They send an email to them, Hey, if you could just work out some sort of payment plan, that would be great. Meanwhile, I go look on their website, still using it, Instagram, still using all the images, no problem. No, no, no issue with, I mean, wouldn't you as a business owner, like wouldn't you be like shamed, shame a little.

Yeah. I mean, maybe the employees don't know, obviously, you know what I mean? But like, wouldn't you be a little bit like if you are, I imagine 

Mary: it's not a big company, no local, if it's that small and local. People, people know when the company's struggling. I mean, I feel like they normally do, but maybe I'm wrong.

Mm-hmm. I, maybe I'm wrong. I mean, obviously I don't know what kind of company it is and I don't need to know, but Sure. But I [00:09:00] guess, I mean, the only thing that you could have done to protect yourself that is moving forward, you just have to tell the agency, sorry, you need to pay me and you have to chase the money because you had no that situation.

You didn't negotiate any of that stuff, right? Like, I don't know why the agency, the agency feels like, it feels like the agency should have taken responsibility for making sure you got paid on that one. 

Kira: I was wondering at what point did, were we gonna have that conversation? Yeah. Now I got a response from that client last week when I sent a, a follow up.

And, and by the way, Chad, GPT was great for helping me to kind of navigate how to word it. 'cause I was just like, pay me what you owe me right now. Yeah. You know? Um, and, and it, and it got a response from them, which was, I was thrilled about. They're like, oh, we got a new lady. She's, she's gonna handle it. And I, and I said, by Friday, and she goes, oh, absolutely.

If not sooner. Here we are Monday. Nothing. Now, is this the late, is 

Mary: it you, you got a response from the company that owes you money or the agency you worked with? 

Kira: Oh no, the company that owes me money. Okay. Yeah. Flat out like, you know, and, uh, [00:10:00] so I mean, great that I got a response. I mean, I guess that's, but like what, why are you making me do it some more?

It's already awkward because they don't have the money. I know. 

Mary: And that's what it is. They don't have the money. I mean, we've all. I've been ghosted by clients before, right? Mm-hmm. Like if they're on a payment plan or, you know, I, I, things, things are a little different for me, but I, I know like the very little bit of corporate work I do, I bill them and depending on their accounts receivable, when they receive and when they pay, it could take 30 to 60 days just 'cause they have a system and Sure.

Oh, I sent it right away. Yeah. But it came in on the 15th day at 9:00 PM instead of 9:00 AM So that actually goes in the next Oh yeah. That's. Okay, I got you. Y'all are in a system and you, those are PE and those are mostly corporations or businesses that have a payroll system, and they don't really, it's not manually done.

Right. These places are manually cutting checks. They sound, I bet these places you're dealing with are manually [00:11:00] cutting checks. Um, I bet, uh, you know, and I, and I had this happen. I had a client who was starting this little business. I'm not gonna, you know, this little kind of business that it was, um.

Something she created and she was all excited and she wanted to hire us to do all the photography and we're, I was like, okay, but this is what we charge. And, and our rate's pretty high. Like it's, you know, um, I, I'll tell a story about that in a minute, but relatively speaking, for our area, it's pretty high, especially since we're not.

Quote unquote commercial photographers, um, uh, you know, we charge what we charge, right? Nope. I want you all to do it. You know, you photographed whatever, fine did it. And normally we don't release the images until we're paid, unless it's a company. Now it's, if it's like x, y, Z hotel or x, y, z law firm, yes.

But this was situation like, if it's an author or a restaurant, small, we're you, you pay me or I don't give, you know, I can, I'll give you a, a gallery of the proofs. But I'm not giving you the [00:12:00] images that you can actually use until I get paid. Right. She was, oh my God, I'm gonna get featured in this magazine.

I have to have them, have to have them. Have to have 'em. And she had been a long time client now. Not like one of my best clients per se, but she's a great client, and that's true. Sure. Nothing. Crickets. Crickets, crickets. Crickets To the point where I'm pretty sure she just blocked us. Oh, but we're in Richmond.

You're using the images and I see you at things and you see me at things and you know you owe me $5,500. Yeah. Because that's how much photography we do. And you literally just have the nerve to look at me and walk away like, you don't owe me. You're a small business owner, ma'am. And you know I'm a small business owner and you've literally just screwed me out of over five grand.

Yeah, I could have, all I could have done is hired an attorney and gone after her and at what? And, and I, and there were days the [00:13:00] guys where I was angry enough that I'm like, I'm didn't do that just to prove a point. And then I thought, wait, wait a minute. That's not, that's just me trying to prove a point that's really.

I feel like there would be more bad from that than me getting my five grand, even though I really would've liked to have had my money, but you know what I mean? Like, what do you do? You know? Just write it off. I mean, because 

Kira: the time has been spent, the admin has been spent, you've done the work, you know, and then you're like, they're using your work.

They're using your work and so you've just done it for free and then, you know. Yeah, so I mean, there, there are, I mean, there's certainly ways, I mean the, what I enjoyed about not enjoyed, but what I liked about when I kind of worked with Chad GBT on how to, how to approach this was the threat of small claims court or collections or whatever.

Now I don't know how to do that right now. I don't wanna have to do it, but I mentioned it. Oh yeah, you did. I did. You know? Yeah. Because it's been quite some time, you know? Yeah. And I don't know if that elicited a, an [00:14:00] extra response or what, but I mean, like you said, like you wrote it off. At what point is it just like not worth the stress of trying.

To get it. 

Mary: I, I guess it's all, it's relative, right? It's relative. I've never done that and I've never used chat to write these, but my, the most threatening I got, and I've only, I've had to do this unfortunately with even a couple clients, like 

Kira: mm-hmm. That 

Mary: just, you know, were on a payment plan. No, only one that was on a payment, but just kind of dipped and left their order.

And I will say at the end of this quarter, I will be meeting with our attorney. Um, they do go over our finances. They are gonna question this receivable. So I really need to have an answer for my attorney. So I'm not threatening you, but I do sit down with our, our professionals, our finance guy, and our, we do sit down and go over these things in a meeting once, once a quarter.

Mm-hmm. Um, and they will ask me, well, what about this account's receivable? What about this? What about that? I can say, you know, they're take, you know, but that's this as threatening as I've ever [00:15:00] gotten. Yeah. Did not bother this lady. No. I mean, I think if I'd taken her to court, she would've just not shown up.

Like, I don't, I don't know. Like I, I don't know. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. Like I would be, I would have so much anxiety. Like I know. It's just, 

Kira: I, and you know, that's the thing is like, okay, the, the truth is, is probably these companies are, well, I don't know about the magazine. The magazine, that magazine.

It's like the magazines that I have worked for, if they're not like some major, major magazine, which is they're struggling. Struggling, which is, they're struggling. They, you know, they're trying to get photography for free. They're trying to negotiate some sort of, you know, trade situation and, you know, um, this particular one had nothing to trade me because they weren't local.

Yeah. And they weren't, you know, and it wasn't a subject matter that mattered, you know? Mm-hmm. And so I'm just like. You know, you probably don't have the money or you probably have a lot of people like me who are, you're just pushing and pushing a lot of photographers I bet. 

Mary: Yeah. But they're just 

Kira: like pushing off.

Just like maybe they won't [00:16:00] follow up. Maybe we'll only have to pay the ones that that actually send us out. Make a fuss. Yeah. You know, and maybe that's their policy. That sucks. You know? I mean, they already were reusing images for. You know Yeah. An article that they were doing for their magazine. So, I mean, but the, the other one, you know, local, local company, um, lot of employees, you know, and, uh, I imagine if they were ghosting the agency that they obviously were having some sort of money struggles.

Yeah. You know, but, and I, I feel bad. I don't wanna cause people stress, but I also have to make, I, you know, I just wonder sometimes if people know that you're a one person business and they just think well. We can just maybe not pay them and it will just be one person. Oh, of course. That's what is, you know, 

Mary: which, I mean, let's be honest, and I'm not gonna get political here.

I'm really, I'm really not trying to, it's just large corporations, I mean, will Absolutely, they know when they can run over somebody. Like all, let's talk about years ago, Walmart [00:17:00] and, and all that has been resolved. Now I get it. But for a long time Walmart had a philosophy when they were allowing. People to come into their photo center and and steal our images photo.

They were copying our images. Mm-hmm. Even with our logo on it, Walmart pretty much said to the small photographers that came at Walmart and said, you can't do that. They said, Sue me, we will hold this up in court till you are bankrupt. I mean, yeah. So, and I don't think that's a case of these companies that you work with, but it kind of, the larger company in your area that has employees and all this stuff, they're like, yeah, it's just her.

Yeah. If she comes after us, she'll be so up to her eyeballs in legal bills. But to her, she ever gets this, you know, five grand or 20, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. It's not gonna be worth it for her. She's not gonna come after us and Wow. You know, I don't know how people operate that way, but I think the lesson is people do.

And um, yeah. You know, the only thing that you lesson learned, so le what's the lesson? Well. [00:18:00] From now on, if you're gonna work through an ad agency, you have to tell the ad agency that they're responsible for your payment and then they have to chase down their client to get paid because they're not gonna screw over the ad agency 'cause ad agency's bigger.

Right, right. You're just one photographer of how many in your town. Exactly. 

Kira: Yeah. I, I think you're right. I mean, it's not been a problem before, but this has been a long enough problem that, yeah. I wouldn't do it again. And you have two on 

Mary: your plate right now? Two, yeah. So here you are, end of Q1, trying to figure gear up for Q2, which I don't know about you guys, but I've had a very slow Q1, so I'm really gearing up and getting excited about a busy Q3.

We also have some, you know. Trips coming up, meaning we have Texas, we have things happening. Um, so we're busy. Like we're really trying to get all of our ducks in a row, and they're no more in a row than, than anything right now for me. But, um, but I, the last thing I have to do is time to chase down a couple grand.

But for me right now, a couple grand. I mean, that's substantial. That means, you [00:19:00] know, that means, you know, putting into my profit first account or like, like I'm counting on that money. Like I. Count on the money that I, when my, when my software system says I earned something, I expect that money to be there.

Not, yes, oh yeah, no, I'm short 5,500 bucks because X, Y, Z didn't pay or these two companies didn't pay. 

Kira: I'm telling you, it's been a slow enough Q1. That $4,000 from these two outstanding loans, substantial is, it would significantly help because you pay commercial rent. 

Mary: Yes. 

Kira: Right. You know, so, yeah. I mean, so you know, Q1, I think across the board, for most people, most photographers that we know and ourselves included, has been slow.

Yeah, I agree. You know, and then mine was slowed because of the foot, you know? Yeah. First of all, 

Mary: imaging, curing it. When you're, when you're so involved, when you're at that level with chair of imaging gearing up, you really take a lot of time. And then she broke her foot for now still, still dealing with and surgery.

I mean, you know, so I could use the $4,000 is what I [00:20:00] mean. Yeah. And I mean, and guess who doesn't care that you're not getting paid? You can't call your landlord or the light bill company or at and t or whatever. Or you know, for me, right now, all of my taxes are due, meaning personal property taxes, all the, all those taxes are due, um, for all my business tax and those bills, they bill twice a year.

And when those swirl in, that's about another six grand for me. Just of all those taxes, just the little, like all the, the equipment, all the stuff, the location to be on location, what do they call it? Um, when you're covered. So if you're on location and something happens, you know, all liability insurance, all those things mm-hmm.

Um, that I have in addition to my equipment insurance with PPA, obviously, but I've had all these, they're all coming in and I'm opening and I'm like, Ugh, ugh, guess who doesn't care? They're gonna, they're gonna cancel my insurance whether X, Y, Z pays me or not. Like I have to. Exactly. Yeah. So that money has to come from somewhere.

Where's it gonna come from? My savings, my profit, my salary. Right. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Because they gotta get paid. They don't care. And I'm not like [00:21:00] these other companies. I'm not gonna leave somebody high and dry. I am gonna pay my bills. So, no, that 

Kira: would, that would, uh, make me. I wanna, it would make me so nauseous.

I would be so stressed out every day. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's 

Mary: a lot. Well, you know, and I mean, I mean, I learned my lesson with that one situation. I mean, I don't care who you are unless I'm gonna give you the work. If you come to me, you're not gonna get the images until you paid me.

Now I offer payment plans for my family portrait clients. But I will be very clear, I've only had one kind of burn me in the whole history of doing it, so that I don't mind. Um, but like you're saying, headshot, commercial work, weddings, I don't understand. Oh, I know a lot of wedding photographers that don't get their money get fully paid before the, they release the wedding images and they're, that's one that's gonna get burned because they've overspent this, this, this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this.

On the wedding, 

Kira: oh, the catering costs more. The alcohol bill was more like that, [00:22:00] and those people got paid first. 

Mary: Yeah. And now I've already, I've already uploaded all your images and they're a beautiful online gallery. You, your family, friends, everybody, they've looked at 'em, they downloaded them, and you may or may not pay me ever.

And so I've never, that's one thing. I will not show up and photograph your wedding unless I'm paid in full. There's just no way I. There's no way. Um, but a lot of wedding photographers don't do that. And I think that's the thing. I think another thing, just another subject besides headshots and weddings is senior photography.

Mm-hmm. Especially in my area, like a lot of areas where you have to do the yearbook picture. Yeah. I am not ever releasing that image to the yearbook until you've paid me for it, because once it's gone. It's gone. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, 

Kira: absolutely. Well, you know, and the thing is, is, is I wonder if too, I mean, coming back to the wedding photographer, you know, there are wedding photographers.

Who just take a deposit, you know? Correct. Not even half, you know. And, um, what would you say to the wedding [00:23:00] photographers? 'cause I have not done, I have not done a wedding like this, you know? Mm-hmm. For, for that much money. So what would you say to the wedding photographers who are like, well, I just feel like I have to, the only way I can compete in book is if I, if I do a deposit or I do a half upfront and not the entire amount.

Like, what would you, because I think it would be great if they all. Decided, yeah, we're all gonna get paid up front, but what would you say to them? 

Mary: Yeah. So if you're the type of photography studio that have decided to operate your business from the, from the, um, from the foundation of we take a a retainer, we take a retainer, just like a commercial photo, we take a retainer.

And then after the wedding, they're gonna look at the images and we are gonna decide, we're gonna essentially upsell or you're gonna use someone like Mikayla's Company to help you upsell. Okay? If that's what you choose to do and you get a thousand, 15,000, I mean, 5,000, 3,500, whatever you get upfront.

Absolutely. You photograph the wedding, I would. Absolutely give them access to view the [00:24:00] images fully proofed on an online system where they can't download. Yes, they could screenshot, yes, there might be some software out there, but the resolution and everything would be so low and my logo would be so obnoxious.

They're not gonna be to do with it Right across 

Kira: the, the 

Mary: dress pretty much right across the 

Kira: face. 

Mary: Um, yeah. And or they would have to come in and I've also worked with studios that do it this way. This I would rather. Rip my arm off and beat myself with my with it, but. If you are specifically a full-time wedding photographer, that's the majority of your bread and butter, I would recommend you have an appointment where they come in, you show them a slideshow, and then you sit down together and go through the images and they choose what they're gonna want in their purchase gallery and or album.

Kira: Mm-hmm. Or whatever. That's, that's the best way to do it. And I, that's 

Mary: what I would do, um, if that, if you don't have the time, energy, or effort for that. 'cause you're a part-time wedding photographer, I fully understand that you need to find an online option. There are some online systems that you can use that [00:25:00] watermark them so obnoxiously that it's like a hologram.

Mm-hmm. It's like a hologram, um, watermark so that there, it's even that software out there really has a hard time removing it. Um, and you have 'em locked down where they can't download or anything like that. So that would not be my first choice, but I do understand in respect of people's time, that might be their.

Best choice right now. Um, but I would absolutely make them come in and, and we would have a, we would have a a, a reveal together. Um, and I would do, if I did it that way, I would 100% already have built out an album. I would say, this is what I've done for you guys. If you take this, I'll give you, you know, we, we can include the files for this price.

Like if you buy this album. I'll include the files for this price. If you just want the files, they're this price, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. I would have a, mm-hmm. I would have a tiered incentive system to try to knock it outta the gate that night. 

Kira: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I bet it, I bet it's a lot that, I bet it happens a lot to, oh, it does.

I know it does. Wedding, wedding [00:26:00] industry. 

Mary: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we just had our, our Virginia Convention a couple weeks ago, and that was probably the one that we do. We always try to do a little like lunch. Talks. Mm-hmm. Um, and that was one of the biggest questions I got as you know, a business with a business table.

Um, I probably had out of our little group, right. I probably had about 12 or 13 people come and talk to me. One of them was a commercial photographer. The rest were wedding. And there was one that was, um, had done that with her, with their senior portraits, had released the yearbook pictures. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, well guys, I mean.

I'm not, look, I'm not saying this because you should feel bad about it. You, we, you know, you either, you know, you succeed or you learn, right? So this, we're gonna take this as a learning moment 'cause we all have had them and we'll continue to. Um, but now, you know, well I just, well, and then to get the, but, but, but I'm like, okay, then it's gonna keep happening.

All I can tell you is there are ways that you can defend your business, your income. You know, the, you know, the value of what you [00:27:00] offer, or you can keep saying, but, but, but, but, but, and not do it. Like, you know, that's why I say, even though I don't like the online option, there are some options that I, because I do respect the fact that, but I have a full-time job and I have two little kids and Fair, fair enough.

So there are some other options that would work that at least you're not just releasing this out into the wild with no guarantee because. I mean, um, again, not trying to be political, but the climate we're in these days, there's more and more people who are just like, it's me, me, me, and I don't give a crap about you or your business, or whether you keep your lights on.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, I just, I hate to say this, just we're not living in the kindest of times, and maybe we never were, and I was living with my head in the clouds. I, I don't know, but I didn't, I don't feel like it's always been this bad, but I'm, I feel like I'm hearing more and more of it. I mean, I'm sure you being involved on the board, I don't know how much y'all hear from members talking about these things.

I don't know if members actually talk about these things and they, or they just [00:28:00] complain about things. But, but you know, just me trying to be as involved as I am in my state, even being, I spoke in, uh, in New Hampshire and, um, you know, I was talking about digital marketing and, but I got those type of questions from that group and it was a pretty small group, but I would say.

A solid 15% were asking, but, but this happened to me and that happened to me. And I'm like, yeah. And they're new, you know, they don't know. 

Kira: Well, yeah. And, and a lot of times unfortunately, you learn by being burned, you know? Absolutely. 

Mary: And, 

Kira: and you know, I mean, I've been in this business now 14 years and, you know, um, almost 15 years and, you know, it's, it's rare that this happens, but then it happens.

TWI two in a row that, you know, and then, and then you go, I'm too, I'm too old. Or, or this has been going on. I mean, how did this happen to me? Yeah. You know, I mean, you 

Mary: know. No, and I know we both subscribed to the school of thought of, look, we're not making rules to the exceptions. Right, right. So if this happened, and if this happened once or twice in [00:29:00] 14 or 15 years, or in my case 10, 20 times in 30 years, I'm not gonna make rules and institute policy because there's a couple jerks out there, but you have two back to back.

Mm-hmm. Equaling a substantial amount of money to most Americans, the middle class Americans these days. Now you're like, well, I, I feel like I now need to address this and I do need policy. And it's just like, you know, the, the people that we were talking about at our, our state, you know, event, like that's a good percentage of my membership sitting there saying, I, I, they left behind dry.

They didn't pay their $350 bill or their 3,500 bill or their $5,000 wedding or whatever. I mean, yeah, that's a lot of money to a small business. Mm-hmm. That's a lot of money to anybody. Most, most of us. But it's a lot of money to a small business trying to keep it afloat. 'cause it's just, yeah, it's hard.

Kira: How, how much, I mean, I would wonder too, like in that first, in the first five years of business, how much money is lost? 

Mary: Yeah. 

Kira: In a photography business [00:30:00] just from, look, I can't, they goes to me or my policies weren't in place to, to really be able to come back on this. I mean, I wonder how much it would be an interesting study.

Right. And then once you make changes, does that. Does that improve? I mean, I, I think a couple, I, a couple things that I could do for this year, going into this next quarter, um, to try and just for my own peace of mind so I, so I don't get in this situation again. Yeah. I mean, part of the problem was the invoice went out and then I forgot about it.

Right, right. 'cause I'm busy. Got busy, busy. And then I check, you know, 90 days in and I realize, oh God, I haven't been paid for these things. Right. How'd that happen? Right. You know, and then you start to email them and then you know, you fall off again and so on. So this has been drug out also because of mine not being super, super, um, on top of.

Constantly ha you know, hassling them for it. Um, so workflows can be put into place right after 90 days this email goes out, you know, if this [00:31:00] invoice is unpaid, this email goes out. Friendly reminder, you're now 90 pays ba days past due. We've added a late fee. Mm-hmm. Blah, blah, blah. You know, and usually that kind of email goes, oh, they go, oh my God, I thought we paid this.

You know, and late fees can come off and like, you know. Yeah. I always worried about late fees 'cause I felt like they were kind of like. 

Mary: Uh, 

Kira: punishing, you know, um, well, they are, but they are punishing and they're easy to take off, you 

Mary: know, 

Kira: like if it or they to leave 

Mary: because, you know what? I somehow did not get the mail the whole month of January, somehow at the studio, and I had one or two bills that I was late by.

I, I just, I was mm-hmm. Traveling. I just did. I just, I wasn't going in, I didn't get it. Jamie didn't give it to me. Yeah. And I had one or two bills and there was a late fee on 'em. Fair enough. I was late. That's right. It was over 30 days. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I owed the money, like we don't question it with the, you know, water bill.

I don't question. I mean, why do, why do we not deserve the same 

Kira: I. Yeah, that's true. 

Mary: So 

Kira: leave it. But, [00:32:00] but a workflow needs to go, obviously a workflow needs to go in place because I get busy. Yeah. I'm one person and I'm not gonna go. So it needs to be 

Mary: automated. It 

Kira: has to be automated. Needs to be automated to 17 hats.

Not automate that. That's what I was wondering. Yeah. But you have to activate it. You know, you have to, you have to go in and set up the workflow and you have to make sure that you remember to put people on a workflow. You know, sometimes, you know, and you're like, uh. Workflows are something that I've gotta rework for 2025 for sure.

Same like that is definitely one I've got. Some of them are just old. Like I find myself checking off things that like we don't really do anymore. You know? Yeah. That sort of thing. But that's definitely something that we can do. But you know what all this makes me think about too, Mary, is, you know when, when times get tough, like when you get injured?

Mm-hmm. You know, or you know when the economy is iffy and people start being more careful with their money. Um, you know, as photographers, you know, we can't, if we're injured, we can't work. Newsflash. That's that, like, I [00:33:00] thought that maybe I could, um, you know, I. Hobble around 

Mary: through that. Around, yeah. 

Kira: Hobble around.

But I mean, honestly, I spent so much time just laying on my couch in between sessions, exhausted and sad because I was so tired from doing like two or three head shots, just, you know, yeah. Heel toeing out everywhere. And uh, just to get the lights turned on was difficult sometimes. Just to get over to it.

Yeah. To turn it on. So. I, I haven't done any sort of supplemental insurance, like any sort of, you know, injury insurance. I remember I had to get it when I was working at a agency when I was pregnant with Lucy. 'cause I wanted to have maternity leave. That's how sad it is in the us I'm sorry. But I had to pay for like Aflac so that I could have some extra money so I could go on maternity leave, you know?

And in photography, if this is your full-time work. You can't work. Yeah. What are we, how are we preparing? Or I wasn't prepared? Well, we have, 

Mary: we, we actually still, [00:34:00] we have two Aflac policies. That's, do you have Aflac policy? It's essentially a loss of income or disability or you know, it, it's like, I don't know if they call it that, but that's essentially if I'm disabled and I can't work a wedding and I have to hire.

Or I have to do this or I have to do that. You know, A, you have to upfront make sure you're profitable enough that if you can't do it, you can pay somebody to do it. Like, yeah. When I do out my cost analysis for the photograph, a wedding, I put it out there like what I'm getting paid to do the wedding, what Jamie's getting paid, what our assistant's getting paid, and then I multiply it by whatever.

That's how I do it. I know it's old school. But I have the money in the bank, so if I had to pay somebody, the money's the, the client has paid me the money. Mm-hmm. But we both, Jamie and I both have to have policies, um, riders that if one of us is injured or out, you know, incapacitated for whatever reason, for however long, and you don't have to do these full on policies like full disability policies, that if I can't go work again, um, that's another kind of policy that I have, you know, with my husband through our health, you know, through our other insurance.

Anyway. But yeah, there [00:35:00] are riders you can add to your insurance. They're not that expensive. Um, obviously the older I get, the more expensive it was. So we did this years ago. Um, and there are two small Aflac policies that if I can't work, Jamie could hire someone by, and vice versa if I needed to. 

Kira: I'm gonna, I'm, I literally just pulled up the Affleck website.

I'm like, you know. Mm-hmm. I mean, odds are lightning isn't gonna strike me twice, but if I broke an arm or a hand, or you know, had a, a serious illness, I had to have eye surgery like 

Mary: you, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like me age, we're get, and that's one of the reasons that it was a big sell for both of us.

Us being photographers, our insurance agent who's great, and a client of ours, they're like, if you down the road, you get older, you have cataracts, you have to have cataract surgery, you have to have whatever. Mm-hmm. You're out. You can't. There's nothing you can do. Like you, you gotta bring somebody else in or you gotta lose business.

So it's, it's loss of income and it's, you know, it's so we could, so we could supplement, um, and or pay somebody to come in and do the job if we needed to. If we had a huge commercial [00:36:00] job and Jamie broke his leg, I'd have to hire somebody else to come with me to finish this job. Like I, yeah. I mean, we, we, we just had to.

So yeah, that, so there's things you can do, look into those policies again, especially if you're younger and newer. They're not that expensive. They're well, well worth it. And then implementing systems, if I don't have 17 hats, but I, because of my old CRMI run and I have a QuickBooks every um, every 15 days they get a reminder and then they get a reminder two days before the late fee goes in and.

Um, it's automated. You can automate that. Yeah. And now you can automate it with HubSpot, ConvertKit. Um, there's a lot of ways you can automate that. Tve, HoneyBook 17 hats. Mm-hmm. Put in those automated systems because just like you, the reason I spent the time doing that is one time I went into and Okay.

The, the third point I was gonna make is. Have a quarterly meeting, and if it's not, if you [00:37:00] don't have a financial advisor and an attorney that you meet or you don't have professional services that you meet with on a quarterly basis, then find a group of people that you can network with that you all can sit down that you trust, that forces you to pull those reports and sit down and go, oh.

And it, it, I don't care if it's, if it's, you know, your, your spouse or your neighbor, you know, you should monthly pull those reports because I forget too. I'm like, oh my God. Mm-hmm. I didn't collect this on this job. I didn't even invoice this job. Like, it's not their fault. Yeah. I forgot to invoice it because I did that job and went on to 27 other things.

Oh. And then I went here that, so, you know, there's a lot of things we can do to safeguard ourselves, um, against it. 'cause a lot of times. It's on us. Like, you know what I mean? Like you could sit here and say, well, if I had every, you know, 15 days been invoicing him and then threatening him with the late fee and then that late fee compounds and compounds and compounds.

Kira: Mm-hmm. 

Mary: [00:38:00] Which obviously the, the precursor to that is they have to have signed. They have to have signed on an invoice, understanding that like when you sign off on anything, you order from me at the bottom it fully, you sign off and initial that A, this is, this is commissioned work and there it's non-refundable.

B, you're gonna pay me the money and C, the payment structure. So if you're not paying in full today, it's very clear how the late fees will compound if you don't pay it. 

Kira: Yeah. Yeah. 

Mary: So they do have to sign off on it for it to, 

Kira: we've got a Yeah. Yep. Work to things in place. We've got some work to do. That's okay.

Well, that's okay. That you know what, you live and you learn and you Well you do and you know, and hopefully it won't happen again. Or when it does happen again, you'll be better prepared. Right? Yeah. 

Mary: I mean, and look, we're not gonna beat ourself up over it again. You, you succeed or you learn. And I mean.

This is a great lesson and this is a great, mm-hmm. And I hope some of you out there are like, shoot, yeah, I got this or that. It's a great lesson and it's okay. I mean, [00:39:00] there's nothing wrong with the fact that this happened. What will be wrong is if we don't do things to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Like that's the only thing, thing that would make it like, oh, well I knew better. That's when it starts feeling shameful and you're like, but I knew better. Like I listened to those stupid idiots on that podcast, and they told me that. Or they 

Kira: literally were like, don't do what I did. Don't do what I did.

Exactly. They learned it from watching you. Oh. Alright. Uh, yeah. Alright. Well look. Yeah, you guys, you guys gain gain from my pain friends. Yeah. Don't do what we do. 

Mary: Alright guys, so hey listen, if you guys are traveling about, or, or you're gonna be about, don't forget Ms. Kira Dairy Barry has got an all day chat GPT class coming up on.

Uh, April 26th in Addison, right outside of Dallas. 

Kira: And I, and I found out we have like three seats left. I, I did find out that we are almost sold outside up, so if you're coming in early up, sign up quick. [00:40:00] 'cause it's coming in in just a few weeks, coming in hot. So you 

Mary: gotta be careful on that. And then I, of course, Jamie and I.

Um, I think we might be sold out, but again, if you wanna seat in our class, I usually can fit a couple more in. Um, we'll be at Texas School that whole week, the 27th through the 2nd of May. So that's coming up. And then other than that, I don't think I have, I'm gonna be in Houston, um, and June. So June, if you're a Houston person.

Um, I'm gonna be at the Houston Guild in June, so, um, come see me. Come see me. Y'all go. I am, 

Kira: I am gonna be at, uh, PPA and I in Illinois, um, in Chicago, actually, um, on July 8th doing another full one day seminar. So if you want more information on that, head over to PPA and I'S website, which. I can link because I don't have it up right now, but if you're in the Chicago area, we'd love to see you.

And yeah, we've got lots. Oh, oh, Maryanne, I've got a summer, uh, summer chat, [00:41:00] GPT, uh, uh, workshop coming up too. So if you want, if you want more information about that, you can go over to boss level-ai.com and sign up for the summer session of our six week workshop. We're almost, we're on week four right now of the spring.

Oh, fun. Yeah. So 

Mary: it's going, it's going really good. Yeah. And I guess in May we have our next. Well, we, we have a whole schedule. If you go to photograph and paint to sell, we're doing a full year of learning how to brush oil paint, and this is not embellishing, it's actual brush oil painting. So it's a. It's a very different process that the more I look around, not a lot of people are teaching.

So if you've ever wanted to expand that creative side, and we're not just doing it with people, we're got a beach scene in May. We have a black and white we're doing, we have a floral, so we're trying to do things outside of the portrait realm for anyone out there who just wants to kind of just paint for fun or maybe start doing some fine art work.

That's right now, like our last class, I think 80% people are just, they wanted to learn how to paint rain landscapes 'cause they're interested in maybe. Selling landscapes or just doing them for themselves. So kind of fun. Um, so check 

Kira: [00:42:00] it out. Sometimes you just wanna make some art for art's sake because it's fun's, 

Mary: correct?

That's correct. 

Kira: Sometimes you just like it to paint. There you go. Um, alright, well you guys, you certain, you certainly can follow us on Instagram and get your shoe together. You can follow us on Facebook. Book at Get Your Shoot Together. You can email us at Girl at Get Your Shoot together.com and subscribe to us everywhere where podcasts are played.

We will see you guys next time. Thanks y'all.