From The Beat To The Bible: Law Enforcement Lessons On The Unseen Battle

What if the fiercest battles you face aren’t loud or obvious but woven into everyday decisions, headlines, and habits? Bruce sits down with Sam—minister, scholar, and retired state law enforcement officer—to trace the subtle contours of spiritual warfare from the pages of Genesis to the pace of modern life. With stories from 32 years on the job and decades in ministry, Sam explains why some behaviors defy purely natural explanations and how a biblical lens restores clarity without dismissing complexity.

We walk through the core strategy of the enemy—plant doubt, normalize the counterfeit, and keep people too distracted to notice—and contrast it with God’s simple, sturdy tools for resilience. From the “study the real” approach to discernment, to a practical walkthrough of the armor of God in Ephesians 6, you’ll hear how truth reshapes instincts, righteousness steadies conscience, and prayer aligns power with purpose. We also unpack church models, the risks of attraction-first ministry, and why gospel-centered formation remains the only durable path to depth.

The conversation doesn’t dodge hard cultural flashpoints. Sam examines current policies and movements through an unseen-realm lens, asking who benefits when families are divided, language is softened to mask harm, and authority is caricatured. He doesn’t offer slogans; he offers a way to think: slow down, define terms, test claims, recognize camouflage, and bring Scripture to bear with humility and courage. Along the way, he shares how presence in hard places—patrol cars, courts, schools, and neighborhoods—becomes a living witness that outlasts hot takes and outrage cycles.

If you’ve felt the churn of busyness, the pull of doomscrolling, or the confusion of competing truths, this episode will give you handles for real life: how to speak Scripture when lies get loud, how to guard your mind when attention fragments, and how to be light where darkness feels ordinary. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs clarity, and leave a review telling us which piece of the armor you’re putting on this week.

Transcript

Welcome And Sam’s Background

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello everyone. Welcome to the Bible Quest podcast. My name is Bruce. Today I got a really special guest. I got somebody on with me today that uh his name is Sam. I'll let I'll let Sam just kind of give you his background. But we have a clash together, and he had just said some things in a in a discussion that like just made me want to know more about you, Sam. You know, I thought you had a really cool background. And and I don't obviously know everything, like all of your background, but I know a little bit. And your topic that we were you were talking about was spiritual warfare. And I think that is super relevant today for Christians and non-Christians, because it affects everybody, whether people believe it or not. But I think today more than ever, it's very relevant to what people deal with. So let me introduce Sam. Sam, tell us a little bit about you. How's that? A little background for anybody listening.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Sounds good. Well, thanks, Bruce, for inviting me to be on the podcast. And like you said, my name is Sam. I reside in California. And Bruce and I are matriculating to the uh Dr. Ministry program. And in our current ministry program, we're looking at some issues. A little bit of background about myself. Born and raised in California. I am one of five children born to my mom and dad. My dad passed away in uh 2010. Parents were married for 55 years. That's a long time. That's awesome. A long, long time. And I learned a lot about manhood, familyhood from my dad.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

You know, sorry, I don't, I, I, I don't want to interrupt you, but when I heard some of your story about that, I was like, you had like sound like a great, great dad, a great mentor. That was also your dad. And and that's so rare nowadays.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Yeah, yeah. He good mentor. He was my biological father, but he was also my father in ministry. And being the only boy, the only son, his he took an interest in me to help me to become a godly man. And so much of what I learned about life, about work, about family, marriage, all kind of filtered in through his day-to-day example of just providing for my mom, my siblings. And so, yeah, he was probably the most influential person in my life uh outside of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

And you know what? That's honestly that's the way it should be. It should be, and that's awesome. Anyway, sorry. Yeah.

unknown 2:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

So again, I'm trying to be quiet, sorry. No, you're good. This is hey, this is your podcast.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

But yeah, like I said, born and raised in uh in California, went to elementary, junior high, and high school in California, and then went into law enforcement as a career, and uh had an enjoyable career there, and was in ministry before I uh went into law enforcement.

Mentorship, Ministry Roots, And Family

SPEAKER_03 3:10

I actually began in ministry in my 20s.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

And then from there got into law enforcement because at the time, this is going back to the 1980s now, there was a recruitment effort to recruit new people into the public safety arena because there was a generation that was retiring out.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

And I saw an ad in the local newspaper, and I was looking for work, but I wasn't planning on looking at law enforcement. My act, my intentions were actually going to mortuary science. That's actually where my interesting intentions was. And the main thing about that was mortuary science, particularly being a mortician, it was strictly a practical, logical deduction. People will always be dying, therefore I'll always have a job. That was the whole thing behind that.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

That makes sense. It's always gonna be needed, yep.

SPEAKER_03 4:01

Exactly. That was my thinking. That was my thinking, always be needed. There was a college in San Francisco called the California, San Francisco College of Mortuary Science. And so I got the information from there, and I was planning on enrolling there when I saw the ad for a law enforcement. So I put in for it with it, okay, I'll just kind of see what it's like. And going through the application process and the recruitment process, one of the recruiters called and said, Hey, you're passing all the exams and you're in the high percentile, so maybe you should give some interest in what you're doing, even though you have other desires. So I said, Okay, so I just went through the process and my thought was, yeah, I'll do this, but I'm still going to mortuary science school.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

And it was it was interesting. And then, you know, what eventually happened was I got hired one year led to two, two years led to four, and eventually I was there 32 years later. And that desire or focus on mortuary science just kind of fell by the wayside as I spent my time in uh local law in local law enforcement through the state of California. I was a state law enforcement officer and had a rewarding career, a lot of good assignments, met a lot of good people. And after 32 years, it was just time to now it's time to close this chapter and uh go into the next. And so that's where I am now in life. Since retiring, I've completed

Law Enforcement Calling And Career Path

SPEAKER_03 5:20

two master's degrees, and I'm working on a doctor of ministry degree now because I still have a passion for learning and a passion for ministry.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

And so that's where that's where I am now.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

That's awesome. So when you were uh in law enforcement, you said you were doing like ministry work even before you really got into it. Like what what were you doing as as you were an officer?

SPEAKER_03 5:41

My duties included uh protection of public officials, protection of state.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

What what were you doing for ministry during that time?

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Ministry, I was on the associate slash assistant pastor at a local church where my dad was pastor.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

And engaged in preaching and teaching in church administration. We were doing a lot to bring the church in the computer aid. So it was a lot about membership and you know, state requirements that we had, you know, as far as paperwork and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

And you had a lot of good ministry experience right from the kind of from the start.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Yeah, it was a learning experience. It was a smaller church in San Francisco, so it was a lot of hands-on.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Yeah. And you probably had many hats, right? You did more than just many hats, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

Yeah. Many hats. And uh, but like I said, it was a good learning experience, and it kind of set me up for where I am now because knowing about the different aspects of the preaching ministry, the different aspects of discipleship and shepherding, sick care, uh, to a certain extent, chaplain work, all kind of morphed out of that experience at the local church in my 20s. And then the job in law enforcement was just a means, how God provided for me to take care of myself. I was single at the time, and so it was a source of income. But I also learned that eventually learned that even in law enforcement, I was God's representative there.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

And wearing the uniform, engaging with people was another way of incarnationally representing Christ.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Yeah, being a biblical, kind of like a godly example to people, you know. Kind of handle yourself and all that. Yeah, I could see that.

SPEAKER_03 7:23

And it was it was interesting because law enforcement is public safety is not really a place where you have a lot of believers. Law enforcement in general, you see more of the underbelly of life. Yeah. And I learned this from one of the former commissioners of New York City Police Department. He was on an interview, he had since retired. And when he said this, it really clicked in my mind. He said, if you think about it, people never call the police when they're having a good day.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

That's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

Usually when they call something has happened. Yeah, yeah.

unknown 7:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

Something has happened either on the lower end, maybe they've lost their purse or their handbag, and they need to have a report taken. On the more extreme end, somebody's been injured or killed, and they need you to come in and do an investigation. But no one, unlike the fire department, not and I appreciate my brothers and sisters that are in the fire service, but people will come and hang out at the fire department all day. Because the fire department has a really good community engagement model.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

And boy, police the police in general have gotten such a bad rap in the last few years.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Yeah, well, I would say longer than that. It's been going along longer than a few years.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Well, I mean, the whole uh defunding the police and just and it's like I mean, that's I don't think people understand how needed law enforcement is, you know.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

They don't until the crisis hits them. I would say probably the main times people appreciated what we were doing is when there was when we lost someone in the line of duty, then that's when it kind of really struck with the public

Wearing The Badge And Bearing Witness

SPEAKER_03 9:00

how challenging and how difficult the career was. Yeah. But you mentioned how people are viewing the police now with defund the police. Well, that to me, that's just the latest uh version of that. I was working with Rodney King, big incident, and for those of your audience don't remember, Rodney King was the big incident of the heaven out of Los Angeles, California. And Los Angeles police was accused of using excess force against him. Like the George Floyd, you know, like the George Floyd thing. And then with Rodney King, the case went to uh the state court, the state court found the officers not guilty. The federal courts came in and actually found the officers guilty of violating Rodney King's civil rights. But that was kind of when I saw this Rodney that's defund the police. There were a lot of civil unrest, both in Southern California, up here in Northern California, where I am, it matriculated up here as well. And then looking at some of the other cases that I saw with Oakland police, there were some incidents that happened there, Richmond police. So there's always been this element in society that has kind of been antagonistic toward the police. Now, currently it's it's intensified, and my perspective is it has intensified because you now have elected government officials that are talking about defunding the police.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:22

And that really got legs from the George Floyd. It started, you know, maybe some of the cases out of New York with the Michael Brown case out of Missouri also. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yeah. And, you know, when I hear you talking about these things that happened years ago and just some of the recent things that aren't going on now, I can't help to kind of direct it back to spiritual warfare as well.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

Oh, no doubt.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

No doubt. I mean, this isn't all this isn't all people's ideas, you know.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Well, you know, Bruce, I think sometimes we as human beings, we have either been conditioned to overlook the spiritual dimension of our lives, or we have simply set it off to the side and we don't want to think about it at all. But if you think about everything that we do in humanity, there is a link to spiritual warfare, the cosmic battle between good and evil. And I saw it a lot when I was in law enforcement. A lot of the things that people would do, some people would attribute it to mental illness or other things, but when you boil it down to the lowest common denominator, there is a spiritual element in there where this individual is being influenced in his or her behavior in ways that are ungodly, and it shows up sometime in criminal activity and things like that. So your point is very, very well taken. That in I in our culture today, one of the things that in this aspect of spiritual warfare, I'm learning to ask this question when I see things going on. Who is the spiritual entity behind what I am seeing? And that helps me to frame that argument a little bit better.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Yeah, well, I mean, it that reminds me of what Paul said about we don't wrestle against flesh and blood. Correct. Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

Yeah, Ephesians chapter six.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

It is so easy to see that person who's doing something, you know, whether it's on TV, online, or in person, and and have, you know, intense feelings about what's going on and what they're

Public Perception, Policing, And Culture

SPEAKER_01 12:20

doing, and not realizing what's probably behind them in those actions.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

And that that's that's the key. What is behind them? Who behind them is motivating them to act out in how they're doing, and whether it is the person that we would say involved in criminal activity, that's one aspect. But then another thing, Bruce, I when I look at policies for which political leaders stand or advocate, who is the spiritual entity behind that individual motivating or pushing that policy forward? And I was because again, there's a spiritual dimension there as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

And I was just gonna go there too, because you you gotta wonder about some of the things that uh politicians do, governments do, countries do. Right. Um that that don't always make sense. It's like, you know, if you had your people's best interest in heart, why would you do this? Do you know what I mean? Or you know, why would we allow this food additive that we know causes cancer to be into our food in this in a country? You know what I mean? Like why? I mean, is is it just for the sake of income and money, or is there something else? And and then, you know, maybe I'm looking into it too much, but there's just some things. You're just it it doesn't make logical sense what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

Yeah, uh logical sense is key. And then when we look at the storyline of scripture, yes, the more we spend in the storyline of scripture, the more we I think more we can connect the dots in the realm in which we live, the physical realm. And so you look at, for instance, when you look at governmental policies here in California, we have a government policy that was just struck down by the United States Supreme Court for parents in California, where juveniles in the public schools, juveniles defined as individuals under the age of 18, if they were to begin saying that I'm identifying with as another gender under gender dysphoria, the school system could start motivating or encouraging the child to pursue whatever they uh sense is appropriate for their new gender identity without telling the parents. And the Supreme Court just stepped in, but to to correct that and says no, the school has to notify parents in this particular situation. But we don't ask the question who is the motivating power behind a politician wanting a government policy that gives a child exemption in two primary areas, gender dysphoria and abortion, but they can't, but still they have to have parental consent for other major surgeries that they happen that they need.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

I mean, you need consent to I mean, you need to be a certain age to buy cigarettes to join the military. I mean, lots of things. Exactly. Yep. And and and I mean, I come from like a healthcare science background, and I mean, and you know this from law enforcement. You're not mentally developed. Like you you may think you know everything at 17, but you know, you're 12, 13. You're you I mean, you're just starting your personality and and correct figuring and and you're still in this don't know who you are and all that, and and to give that credence over their parents, do you know what I mean? That have their best, hopefully their bestest interest in heart to help guide them and direct them when they're going through those challenging years. Yeah, I I mean, I don't know. I don't I don't understand. It doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

Yeah, it's it's no, the more I spend time in scripture, the more I'm seeing that many of our contemporary experiences from day-to-day life, they are linked to or they are rooted in activities of the occupants of the unseen realm. But again, like I said, a lot of a lot of times we're so conditioned to look at things strictly on the physical level that we do not either connect the dots, the spiritual warfare component, or we subconsciously start using the verbiage. So when I hear things such as LGBTQIA, when I hear things such as genod dysphoria, when I hear things such as reproductive choice or reproductive health care, or in California

Linking Social Upheaval To The Unseen Realm

SPEAKER_03 16:30

dying with dignity, which is a youth and of position-assisted suicide program that we have, do we do we pause to say, okay, is this only of man's ingenuity, or is there are there malevolent spiritual forces behind that are motivating and prompting the thoughts of human beings to pursue uh interests in these areas?

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Well, you know, devil comes to steal, kill, and to destroy. He's not our best interest at heart. He's not trying to get us closer to God, you know, trying to make us ineffective and pretty much like useless in the soul.

SPEAKER_03 17:08

And he and he's very good at camouflaging. I say this in some of the Bible study classes that I do in some of my teaching assignments. I have a person there, and I'm sitting in the front, they're sitting in the front row. And so for the sake of our podcast, we're going to name the person Jane. And Jane is sitting in the front row, she's listening to everything that's going on. I'm using Jane as an example. And I say, now, the devil does not work like this. The devil doesn't say, Good morning, Jane. I'm the devil and I'm here to tempt you. But he camouflages and he disguises himself so that I become less sensitive to what he is saying, and what he is saying is more appealing, kind of like what Peter talks about the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the boastful pride of life. So he can he come camouflages it. And if I can get my guard down, then he can begin to plant seeds of doubt or whatever other kind of seeds he plants in my mind, where I begin to rationalize what's going on. And that's what we talk, that's what I mean when I'm talking about spiritual warfare. Sometime in spiritual warfare, we tend to limit it or focus it to an incident in Jesus' ministry, The Wild Man of the Gatherings, where he goes across the sea and he encounters this man coming out of the tombs, and his name is Legion, and he is cutting himself, self-mutilation. He's so strong that chains cannot bind him. He's living among the tombs, and we that's kind of our concept of spiritual warfare. Or maybe we think of uh Linda Blair in the old movie The Exorcist, or maybe we look at some of the dating myself by bringing these uh movies up, but the old omen series with Damien, you know, that's kind of our thoughts of spiritual warfare. But the spiritual warfare is a lot of times it's much more subtle in our contemporary experiences. And if if our spiritual antenna is not calibrated to recognize it or to tune into it, then the enemy can oftentimes come in and deceive even believers in Christ when we're not in tune with what the word of God says about how the enemy works.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

So, how I mean, like practical application. How do you how do you get more in tune with being aware of some of the stuff that happens? Because it's so I mean, devil's been doing this for a long time, he's real good at it. Uh yeah, he's yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

I agree. I start with scripture, Bruce. I I start with the storyline of scripture. Yeah, and in the storyline of scripture, I go to I can go to an example that many people are familiar with of Genesis chapter one, correct, Genesis chapter three. Yeah, when Eve encounters the serpent, who, as we learn later on in scripture, is a divine rebel in the garden. And he comes to her and he says, plants doubt in her mind by saying, Has God really said yeah, yeah, okay? And then they gauge in the conversation, and then he flat out contradicts God. You will not surely die. And so when I look at the storyline of scripture, the more I look at the storyline of scripture, the more I discover how the enemy works. Is he gonna put doubt in my mind about who God is? Is he going to present me with an opportunity or situation that is contrary to what God wants me to do or a counterfeit of what God wants me to do? Now, we talked earlier about my uh career in law enforcement, and one of the classes that I had, a couple of classes I had in law enforcement, was counterfeiting, they called it question documents, but included counterfeiting. And it's interesting, Bruce, in the portion of the class that dealt with counterfeit documents,

Policies, Schools, And Spiritual Influences

SPEAKER_03 20:40

particularly counterfeit money, they never gave us counterfeit money to examine. They always gave us actual money to examine closely, to feel it, the texture, to recognize it visually, to smell it, to taste it to a certain extent. And the the premise was if you are so familiar with that which is authentic, the counterfeit will stand out more readily. And so this goes back to the word of God. The more I learn and know about the word of God, the authentic word of God, the more the deceptions of the enemy or the counterfeiting of the enemy, I'm going to be able to recognize because I'm spending time and learning about that which is authentic and how the enemy works. I think sometimes that's what we forget about in this area of spiritual warfare is knowing how the enemy works.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

And in this day and age, that becomes a problem because even a lot of Christians don't read the Bible now.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

Exactly, exactly. So and if he can keep me as a believer in Christ out of the Bible, then he has the upper hand because then I'm not gonna know how he works. You mentioned the passage earlier out of Ephesians chapter six. So one of the things that Paul tells those believers in Ephesus, he says, put on the full armor of God so that you You can stand against the schemes of the devil. So if it's a scheme, it's not something that's going to be readily available. And like you said, a lot of children, a lot of Christians do not spend time in the Word. Well, the less time I spend in the Word, something else is filling my mind.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Through the class that we share. And part of the class we're talking about comparing and contrasting two different models of church. And one of them is really, you know, makes people feel good, a lot of practical applications, but not necessarily like digging into the word. Right. And you know, society in general today is is does not want to like or spend the time. I mean, it's when you think about it that way, it's like, yeah, it's it's really easy for a lot of people to be deceived.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

Easy to be deceived, and the channels through which the enemy works. Digital media, social media, print media, songs.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

His power of the air, you know.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

Yeah. So, and and he utilizes all of those tools as the Prince and Power of the Air to distract us. Now, it now I will say this that those categories that I just mentioned, in and of themselves are not bad. However, the enemy learns how to utilize them in order to distract us from that which is authentic. You mentioned what we're dealing with now in our D-Men class, the attractional ministry model versus the uh gospel-centered ministry model. And one of the things you know that I'm just thinking about, even in this, how the enemy sometimes works, where uh at least in that attraction ministry model, they're talking about making the church attractive to the unbeliever. Okay, that sounds good, but I don't find any place in scripture where the church is to be attractional to the unbeliever. I mean, when you look at the principles of scripture, the church is the body of Christ, and the body and the church is there for the worship and the witness of Christ. Now, as we live our lives out in the world, we have an opportunity to incarnationally represent Christ to whomever we are coming in contact with in this whoever because in the similar way, the Israelite in the Old Testament Acts, uh, Exodus chapter 19, God says, If you keep my statutes, if you walk in my ways, speaking to the Israelites, you will be a kingdom of priests and my own special treasure among the nations. And one of the things God wants to do with Israel is to win the nations back to him through the lifestyle of Israel as they walked with Yahweh, the God of the Bible. And the same is true for us today. We are God's witnesses to the culture, and as they come to Christ, then they'll come to the church. But I don't necessarily see in scripture a biblical

Subtle Warfare And The Need For Discernment

SPEAKER_03 25:00

basis where the church needs to be attractional to the unbeliever. It's the gospel that draws people to Christ. And when they fall in love with Christ, then they will love his church.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

And like the other book that we're, you know, the uh gospel-centered church model. Yeah, you know, he mentioned the author of that book mentioned in there that you know, there's there's definite power in the gospel and the word. Yeah, it's it is supernatural, you know. And I think people thirst for that because people will say they're spiritual. And whenever I hear that, that kind of like what do you mean? You know, I want to ask a million questions, but I kind of know what I kind of know where they are where they are and where they're going. But it also brings me back to the rise of Islam. And Islam is not a gentle religion. No, it's it's kind of like a warrior religion, you know?

SPEAKER_03 25:55

It's a religion of the sort.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

And it is a very, I don't want to say legalistic, but it's like do this, do this, you can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do this. But yet it's growing. So there's still a people, I think, feel the need, even though some churches attract people, they're they're trying to do that because we don't put rules on you, come as you are, do all that. But there's still, I think, a desire in people for the structure and I don't want to say legalism and like can't do this, can't do that, but you can tell they're searching.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Like there's something, you know, that God-shaped whole, you know, C.S. Lewis, I think it was him that said that in our heart. There's a void in us that we want to fulfill, and I God put that on in there on purpose, you know.

SPEAKER_03 26:40

So we all have the desire for him. They're looking to fulfill it. Now the question is, what will they fulfill it with?

SPEAKER_01 26:47

With, yeah, yeah. And then God's doing some amazing stuff with a lot of the Muslims, you know, in the Middle East. I don't know if you've heard some of the stories about supernatural dreams of Jesus visiting a whole family, the same night, same dream. It's crazy when you hear some of the stories about that and how many people are becoming Christians. So, yeah. So, I mean, God is working today a lot. I know people think it only is Old Testament, New Testament, but no, he continues to work through his representatives, believers in Christ.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

He still continues to work through his church, he continues to work through his word because we are still in what I like to describe as salvation history. Salvation history is not just what God did in biblical times, but salvation is history includes what he is doing in our time space continuum, all in anticipation of his return to be Lord, to be uh judge of the earth and to take us to live eternally with him. And so even in our even in our contemporary context, yes, God is doing amazing things, whether it's in uh the Muslim culture, whether it's in the culture from India, even some places here in the United States.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_03 28:09

And I think we have to guard against limiting him on how he works.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Well, we tend to put God in a box because it's hard for us to comprehend. I mean, it really is.

SPEAKER_03 28:19

Yeah.

Scripture As Strategy: Knowing The Real

SPEAKER_03 28:20

Yeah, and and the danger, the danger of that is is if we can put him in a box, then we can't control him also. Yeah, true. And he's not gonna, he's not gonna be controlled. And so he's gonna work according to his plan. He's gonna work through us, his redeemed people, in every generation. He never leaves himself without a witness. And the question for us living in this in this time today is how acquainted with we are the plan and the ways of God, and are we willing to work in concert with him so that he can accomplish his purposes in us in our generation as he accomplishes his purposes in previous generations.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

I think really the hard part as people and humans, I think a lot of people's problem is they want to think that we are we are it, we're the end all. You know, and I I don't know about you, and this is a very general blanket statement for most guys. I mean, you might be you might be a lot better at this than me, but my problem and what I see in a lot of guys is we like to do things in our own strength and not pray about it first, not go to God. Not you know, and I I'm real bad at that sometimes. We're like, Yeah, you know, that was a great opportunity to like get your input on this, and you know. And I didn't, and I'm I'm I'm still learning I need to do that more. And every time I realize it, it's like I just I need to do it even more. I you know, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:49

Because sometimes, you know, we want to be independent and self-sufficient. Yes, we want God to handle the bigger things when we don't think we can, you know. Exactly, life and death, and you know, yeah, exactly. And then in some of the other things, or maybe Bruce, sometime in other things where we know our desire is outside of the will of God, we exclude him because we still want to fulfill what we want to do.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a thing too, because yeah, yeah, we know whether we want to say so or not, but we know what we want to do isn't what really God would like us to do, you know.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

Yeah, yeah, it's outside of what he, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

And and and that again, speaking for me, I you know, I have done that. I'm sure everybody has, you know.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

Yeah. It's it's you know, it also goes back to what we were talking about earlier, the spiritual warfare in the life of the believer is this constant need to be surrendering ourselves over to the will of God as revealed in his word. And so, you know, even in this aspect, the example that we were just talking about, when I want to do my own thing rather than God's thing, that too uh brings the um spiritual warfare component into the life of the believer. You also talked about when you hear people say, I'm spiritual, and I'm glad you clarified because one of the things that you know I've said on that, well, the devil is spiritual, so please help me to understand. Demons are spiritual. That's true. So so help me to understand what you mean by spiritual, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Yeah, where where are you in that? That's a good point. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Exactly, exactly. So, I mean, and and some people just say they say that maybe just to let okay, I'm just as good as you are. Okay, that's what we're not arguing goodness, we're just simply saying, you know, in this example, tell me what you mean by spiritual.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

And you know, the more I learn stuff, and I'm I'm gonna be the first one to admit I don't know much, but but the more I learned, I'm learning like before I jump to a conclusion on what somebody said, I asked them to clarify what they mean by that. And I know it's really irritating to people to explain what they mean because they think you know, this that's what this word means, but not always. Yeah. Um a lot of people and different, you know, different, I don't want to even call them denominations, but you know, Christians and in air quotes Jehovah's Witness and such will use biblical terms, but they don't mean the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's I think important to get clarification.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

I think I think your observation is on point. Ask for clarification, and then once they clarify, it it guards against me ascribing or assuming that we're talking about the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Yes, or they're assuming you're on the totally opposite side of this opinion, and you might be talking about the same thing. You know, that's a great thing in marriage, too. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

Oh, yeah. As

Church Models, Media, And Distraction

SPEAKER_03 33:00

someone who's been in the marriage fight for for 38 years, I can definitely testify to that.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Man, you're doing great. So let me ask you a question here. So are you interested in doing are you gonna do the thesis or are you gonna do the project base?

SPEAKER_03 33:14

You know, I haven't fully decided yet. Now, I've I've looked at both sides of it, the thesis or the portfolio side. I do enjoy writing though. Uh so may I maybe I'll lean more towards the thesis side. You know, then I'm gonna go into a book too.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

I haven't made a decision yet. But you were talking in one of the questions we had about spirit and and why I'm talking about spiritual warfare with you. You mentioned it. Uh like you were gonna do something with it. So, like my question is kind of like where did that interest come from of like doing something and why do you think it's important?

SPEAKER_03 33:54

I would say just because the chapter of life that I'm in now, and being a maybe maybe it's like this, maybe being able to connect more of the dots of scripture, okay, and looking at the storyline of scriptures, seeing the element of spiritual warfare in the in the garden with Adam and Eve, and then seeing, yeah, you know, seeing it there, and then seeing it in the dynamics between Cain and Abel, and then seeing it in the dynamics of Seth being born again, seeing it, inklings of it in Genesis chapter six, the sons of God and the daughters of men, and then hearing God's, you know, dealing with Noah, and then looking at the Tower of Babel, and then seeing how God disowns the nations there, and then calling Abram out of the land of the Chaldeans, and then when he calls Abram, that sets up the remainder of the storyline of Scripture in the Old Testament of God redeeming or reclaiming the nations. It's just having spent time in the Word and just you know constantly reading about it, being able to see this issue of spiritual warfare is not just an issue that is in on the pages of scripture, but it is in the reality of humanity as humanity is estranged from God and how God sends Jesus to redeem humanity back to him.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

It's a symptom, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Yeah, it's a symptom. And so, you know, looking at uh the different dimensions of spiritual warfare, and even in my own time in law enforcement seeing, I was eventually began to be able to kick connect more of the dots in some of the behaviors of the criminal activity side. How yes, they are acting out in a particular way, but what again, who is the uh spiritual entity behind or motivating the individual to act out in this way? And then just looking at in the political arena, looking at things in the church arena in theology, it's just an interest, it's just a topic that has just really, really captured my attention. And then, you know, some of the readings that I've been doing, Carl Payne is one of the authors, he talks about spiritual warfare. Dickinson is another one, uh, the late Dr. Michael Heiser is one, and some other ones that it's just there's just something there that has really just arrested my attention.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

That's been a thread throughout human history, you know, and and it's always had an effect on human and humans throughout history. Yeah. Yeah. And it and it's it plays out today. We see it in our world today. Yes. So this isn't like, oh, that was, you know, you know, way back when that was thousands of years ago, we're so much more sophisticated and modern now.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

It's it's yeah, it's it's still what you just what you just said, that phraseology, how's how a lot of people think we are sophisticated and modern now, okay? And what I've learned is that in though, and I'm not I'm not assigning this to you, I'm assigning this to other people. When I when I hear that phraseology, I look and say, okay, now is this another way that the enemy tries to camouflage what he's doing in under the context of being sophisticated and educated, so much so that we overlook the spiritual dimension of what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

And and you know, that's uh to your point of camouflage. I mean, that's one of Satan's exactly great, great tactics is like he doesn't have to get credit for stuff, he's just he's doing stuff behind the scenes, and you don't even know the root cause behind a lot of stuff. Yeah, and he's perfectly I know we know he wants worship, but he's okay destroying lives without recognition. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 37:37

Yeah, it's part of his

Hunger For Structure And Global Moves Of God

SPEAKER_03 37:41

you know, this issue of spiritual welfare starts in our thinking, in the thoughts of humanity, you know, and so again, when I am have thoughts, good or bad, am I asking again asking the question, who is the entity behind prompting the thoughts? Is it are these my own thoughts, or am I wise enough or can I slow down enough to say, okay, how does this align with truth versus falsehood? Not even arguing spiritual, now we're just saying truth versus falsehood. And then as I look at you know what is true, maybe maybe I can connect it to, not maybe most certainly I can connect it to a biblical principle, but for the person who is not connecting to the connected to the Bible, there is still this element of being able to determine what is you know generally true and what is absolutely false. But does the enemy come in and as Paul talks about in Romans chapter one, for the unbeliever, does he prompt me to suppress the truth in ungodliness and unrighteousness so that I exclude God from my thinking? Now I'm going even further down this path of deception and succumbing to the influences of the enemy.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Now, do you think, and and you you triggered a couple of things in my thinking when you were saying that I think everybody would agree that like we seem to be busier, like the world around us is speeding up, our lives are busier, we don't have you know, our attention spans are getting less and less. I I think that's deliberate to to get people not to slow down and think about not to think about things, you know, not to put too much thought into anything.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

Yeah, until it's something that I have an interest in. Yeah, and then when I have an interest in it, then I will slow down and put the time into it. But I think you don't, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 39:37

With with TikTok and social media and you know the internet. They don't have to, you know. They can get consent quick information, entertainment, whatever. And and with that, what else is getting in there? You know, like what other seeds are planted that they don't have to they don't think about.

SPEAKER_03 40:00

I would say with with with with the quick content, yes, that is true. I can get a quick fix. However, I've also seen that when an individual when the topic is something that the individual wants to learn about, I mean really wants to learn about, then I've seen how the clicks and the the quick clicks will not be sufficient because they want to learn even more. And then that's when their attention span may be captured. I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just saying you you can look at whether it's Instagram, whether it's TikTok, whether it's you know, whatever social media platform where you get the the instant, what they call the dopamine hit. But then you come back and say, okay, well, that really interests me. So I'm trying to find out more. And so I start to spend more of my time researching or giving myself over to it, whereas my interest may have been caught by the quick click, because now I want to learn more about it. Maybe I'll I will slow down and try to spend more time in learning about it.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

And

God’s Work In Our Time And Limits We Set

SPEAKER_01 41:00

you know, I mean, this is kind of redundant, sorry. Uh but I I've I've talked to people in the past that had said they're not really sure that there is a God. But if I ask them, do you believe there's evil in the world? And that's a quick answer. That's so we we can see if we want to put evil in the world, people doing evil things.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

But we can't always equate good things with God or that there's that there is a God.

SPEAKER_03 41:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Yeah. So one other question would be like, do you do you think spiritual warfare is getting worse?

SPEAKER_03 41:39

I think things are rampant. I would say yes. I mean, when I look at or are we more aware of it? I would say it's a combination of both. Okay. Perhaps we are becoming more aware of it, and perhaps it is intensifying because biblical literature reveals as we get closer to the second return of the Lord, how things would intensify. Paul speaks about it to Timothy. Know this in the last days, you know, difficult times will come. Peter talks about it in his writings. John in the Revelation talks about it in his writings. And so I would I think you can make the argument on both sides. I mean for those of us who have an area of spiritual awareness, maybe we're recognizing it more. And as we look at just general events, we're seeing more events that are definitely more diabolical, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

And in in you mentioned Revelation, and there's a verse in there that not for where we are presently, but it does say that paraphrasing that Satan knows uh oh, what's the wording? He knows this time is short. He's coming down with great wrath because he's know his time is short. And so there's a timing part to this too where he knows at some point he's gonna he's running out of time.

SPEAKER_03 42:57

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

And I mean every day we're closer to the second coming. I mean, it's just yeah, and then I I hope it's soon, you know.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

I yeah, uh and even Jesus spoke of that also, you know. He talked about in the latter days, you know, signs of the time. This is this is not I'm not saying that he's coming back tomorrow. Maybe he is. No, but but this but this is to your point, as we get closer to his return, there is an increased intensity on some of the evil that we're seeing, or maybe with that intensity, we're able to recognize it more for what it is as opposed to making excuses to what it's not.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

So, what do you think will help? Is there is there anything that was just one thought? Like, what what would help with spiritual warfare? Like, what is the warfare? I mean, we understand the war, but what are our weapons? I mean, what do we what do we do?

SPEAKER_03 43:53

Our our weapons, we have the truth of God's word, and then Paul delineates it in Ephesians. Ephesians chapter 6, we have going back to truth, we have the belt of truth. So we're as believers in Christ, we are supposed to be people who walk in the truth, talk the truth, know the truth. We have the gospel shoes of peace, and we are to be vessels of peace as we spread the gospel. We have the breastplate of God's righteousness, not our own, but his righteousness that is accredited to us. We have the helmet of salvation, he has redeemed us, and he also wants to redeem our thinking. We have the shield of faith by which we can extinguish the fiery missiles of the devil, and we have the sword of the spirit. And one of the things in looking at the sword of the spirit, the word that is actually the Rhema word or the spoken word that we have. And so one of our weapons is to speak the truth of the word to ourselves and speak the truth of the word to the enemy. We also have prayer, praying in the spirit, in the context of recognizing that we're in a spiritual battle, allowing the Holy Spirit to guide our prayers in what we pray for. Paul hits on this a little bit in Romans chapter 8. We know not how to pray or what we should pray for, but the Holy Spirit

Surrender, Pride, And Everyday Battles

SPEAKER_03 45:10

guides us in our prayers. And so we have the re God has given us everything, the believer in Christ, He has given the believer everything pertaining to godliness. First, 2 Peter chapter 1. So our responsibility as believers in Christ is to discover the resources that God has given us in Christ and utilize those resources as He has dictated and provided us to use them. When we try to do it at our own strength, Bruce, we're going to fail. But when we do it in what God has already provided, then we are his witnesses. Then we are communicating truth. We are light in the culture. And even as things intensify, we are still his witnesses communicating the truth of who God is, whether it's in our family, whether it's in our work environment, our home environments, in our recreational activities, in our member of a lodge or a fraternity or a sorority or a club. We are God's witness there. And our responsibility is to live out the truth of the gospel in shoe leather, as I like to put it, uh, in these day-to-day situations.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Well, you know, I was just thinking that this is going to be recorded. Obviously, it is recorded. And when I do put this up, it actually gives us a like a printout of what you said. You have my permission to take all of that and use that for your thesis. Oh, thank you, sir.

SPEAKER_03 46:40

I would definitely use it as we'll give each other credit for it.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

You're selling out a lot of good stuff of like this is what you can do, like practical stuff, you know. I mean, so because one of my questions is like, what do we do about it? You know, like what do you propose and all that? So that was great.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

Yeah, the you know, the gospel is very practical. It's about living out. And you know, Peter talks about this.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Transcript was the word I was trying to find. It's a transcript of this whole thing.

SPEAKER_03 47:08

So yeah, yeah, which is good, you know, and you know, just living it out. Peter talks about setting apart Christ in your heart, uh, because those believers were going through persecution at the time. And he says, always be ready to give a reason for the hope that you have. And so, as believers in Christ, we are tasked with just living out the truth of the gospel. And as we live this gospel out, we will encounter other people, and that gives us the opportunity to communicate truth to them. Now, what they do with that truth is up to them. We don't have any power to make them to believe it. But you ask, what can we do? A lot of it is just living the lives that God has called us to live in the generation in which we are living and leaving the results to him.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. Well, Sam, I really appreciate you taking the time. I mean, I thank you, brother, for inviting me. This has been good. I'm learning from you, and uh I've learned a lot from you, you know, and that's why I wanted to do this with you. I was like, you know what, you're gonna have so many good things to say. There's things I can't say. You've got a lot of experiences and stuff, and and I think it's better coming from you than me trying to say, you know, I heard this kind of thing. So I don't know. I thought this was it was great. It was really good to have you on. And anytime you want, like you got something you want to talk about, something and it's hard to shoehorn things down into like a topic sometimes because it goes, you know, it goes and then podcasts are two hours long and nobody listens to it. But anytime you want to, man, let's do it again. This was fun.

SPEAKER_03 48:44

Let's do it again. When when when as as your schedule permits and as topics come up, we can collaborate together and just continue to have conversations as brothers in Christ.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

Yeah, and I love to bounce things off of you, you know. Sounds good. You're very rooted in the word, and and I I know you

Clarifying “Spiritual” And Defining Terms

SPEAKER_01 49:00

would have a biblical reply or response to almost any question that I'd have.

SPEAKER_03 49:06

That's that's where my heart is, is to be able to think biblically and uh bring the Bible to bear in every situation.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

You know, and as Christians, I think that's part of our responsibility too. You know, we we are what we should know the most is the Bible. Yeah. I mean that should be that should be our that's our toolbox. That should be what we know the most of and what we use in our day-to-day life. So but with that, I am probably gonna end the podcast right here. I'm gonna have you stay on the line for a second. Okay, but I'm gonna stop the podcast here. Everybody who's listening, thank you very much for uh hanging in here and listening to us just jabber through this whole thing. Sam had some great information, definitely worth listening to a couple times. But again, thanks Sam for coming on, and hopefully we get to do this again. For everybody listening, I will talk to you again really soon. Have a great day, everybody. God bless.