Let's Talk About Sex with Dr Anne Campbell

In this exciting episode Lou talks to Dr Anne Campbell about sex; the science, the sensational, the sensual and the spiritual. 

Annie's Phd was in Human Genetics from Oxford University, but she went on to make many ground-breaking and award-winning documentaries and books, and she, with her husband John, is now pushing the envelope on sexual healing and connection offering sex coaching for couples.

www.wetalkaboutsex.com

Every episode in our TRIBE TV series interviews a guest who has been through some kind of adversity and emerged the other side with something to offer and inspire other people.

Transcript

spk_0:   0:07
welcome to our brave new you try podcast. Today we'd like to welcome Dr Anne Campbell, who is an author, television producer 

spk_1:   0:16
and now with her husband, John, coaches couples in their sexual relationships. The wonderful Dr Anne Campbell, otherwise known as Annie. We've known each other very, very long time, but we started working together in the year 2000 and she gave me my first break into television when she trained me in documentaries, So please welcome Dr Anne Campbell. She got her PhD in human genetics at Oxford University before deciding to leave academia for television, where she made groundbreaking and award winning documentaries such as Death, The Plague- A Decade of AIDS, Anatomy of Love and many, many more very powerful pieces of work. She also would publish a book that allowed her to go into even more depth with the science behind the work. So her publish books include Brain Sex Difference Between Men and Women's Brains, A Mind to Crime. What actually makes somebody be motivated or with predisposed to criminal acts. Why men don't Iron.  Once again, she's pushing the envelope. So when we when we did the death, she's talking about death and talking about cancer. Talking about terminal illness was really a taboo subject. And so when you suddenly were in place where you're dying you were having to deal with this. You didn't know where to go. You don't know who to ask. So the series was about helping people with that and now she is working with her husband, John, on the other taboo subject, which is sex. And so she and John coach couples on how to make the most of their sexual connection in relationships. So it's really fascinating stuff, looking forward to hearing about it. So welcome. Thank you, thank you. You've always been very passionate about digging deep into subjects that are quite tricky, doing all that  groundbreaking work in television and books, whether it's death, crime, brain sex difference. And now, sex. Can you walk us through how this passion for these difficult subjects.

spk_0:   2:45
I think it came from a passionate desire to improve people's lives, to connect, to change things as a young person, Very political, very involved in politics, a lie. I got into the academic thing. I was in the research lab. I've got my PhD and I was going to be, you know, the second m I suddenly sat down. I thought to myself, Does this make me happy? Is it making my heart sing? And I thought, No, it's not much. Rather go out and help change the world in a little way, you know? And I thought, What's the best way of doing that? Television Television was new, and it's it was exciting. I mean, you know, we were still on film and then this digital easy stuff and I thought, Wow, this is what I want to do And I noticed my father. I'm quitting. I'm not. I'm not going to do this postgraduate thing in Stanford. I'm quitting. I'm going to work in television. And he thought I had completely flipped and he said to me, You don't know anyone in television and I said, Well, no, I don't. But I will do it on my goodness me. I think that's for me. The secret when you say I'm no longer going to please people, I'm going to please me. I'm going to follow my heart. Things just roll so easily I knock on a door I get taken on for a week in this local television place Living something called nationwide on the nationwide regional search was pregnant and suddenly she has to go early. I get her job, They love me. The BBC love me. They moved me to London. They put me on training courses. I train out of make films and I'm doing my dream job in part. You know, I'm on Panorama on my job is completely involved. And that was so much a passion and it evolved. I think that's the secret is to remember you might have a passion real passionate one moment, but it evolves through your life and your passions actually change. But the secret is to keep that joy. I mean, we do everything, Really. Our motivation is to feel good inside and be aware of how you feel. And for me I seem to have a natural. I didn't know what it wasthe what I was doing, But I seem to have a natural understanding that I had to feel really good about what I was doing so. Every time's the one thing I'm really proud of in my entire career as I've never, ever made a program I didn't really desire to make with a passion. So I made. My first real start was brain death I did a lot about. So I'm changed, that's all. Sex and love better focus, much matter. But I think I believe for me it's always to follow to follow that instinctive knowledge that this is good, that it you're serving you, but you're serving others at the same time, so you're giving and receiving at the same time.

spk_1:   5:47
I want to ask you about that because there's a natural partner to passion is purpose on dhe. You know, behind every successful person, we tend to find that that they're pretty aware what their purpose is. So what has that bean few. So, for instance, in in in death, your purpose was to help people find their way through the the process. You've come to this place where you want to help people in their their sex lives.

spk_0:   6:16
I think in the very broad sense of purpose. For me, it is to bring joy into to share joy I mean, you can't share what you haven't got. So for me not, I think my purpose has changed from a young person who it was very political. Thought she could change the world blood of law. And I know now my influence is different. And I know now my purpose truly is two t shine a light actually to say to people, you it's here. It's in you, all of you. You will have joy within. You will have it there for you. You do, Scott. These blocks and grievances and complaints and this and that on DSO. My purpose now, especially with this way of making love, is because it's so connecting. It shows such joy and such fun, you know, have fun. As a young person, I took life a little too serious. Most definitely did. And I know now don't forget to laugh. Laugh. You know, that's what it's really about. People got so serious and so focused on career and goals and this No, no, no, no, no. Make sure looking aside, I am I enjoying it. Is this giving me fun? Is this giving me riel satisfaction with inside of me? And if it is, then you're sharing it with everybody else. You really can You realize that you're a mirror and everybody is a mirror And so my purpose now is Mr Share Joy on the purpose of life is joy. Really? But we forgot it. Can

spk_1:   7:54
you talk to me about how you met John? And how that triggered you to Ah, a new thing that ever happened to me. A new way of making love on dhe. How the connection between you has led you to starting your work with. That's you called. Now let's talk about

spk_0:   8:16
I was widowed on DDE at the time. It seemed like my life had come to an end, you know, he was my best friend. We worked together. It was with him for 27 years on it, Ross the darkest moment of my life. But when I can't, he's had said to me very carefully. You must not spend your life alone. So once I came out of that, I, um I embarked on a search. I cannot tell you what I did. I did a decade of more of online dating, speed dating, having that dates arranged for me, putting ads in magazines. I did everything. This is a perfect example, really. I would also, through the death of my husband, I come across something called a course of miracles. Which is, um it's a self study book for in a piece to teach you in a piece. And I was very, um, I had learned through the experience of practicing a ll the principles that my life was getting better and better. I was coming out of that deep pit on dhe, but I I wanted I knew what I wanted in my partner. I wanted someone who was on the same path on, actually, Can I find a man would put up with my morning practices, you know, meditating, reading the course lesson doing Cem, um quiet, meditation guided, you know, a good couple of hours worth of stuff in the morning before I start my day to grandma. What man's going to cope with this? After endless all this endless dating, dating. I was at a picnic with my course of miracles friends, and I put my wedding ring back on saying I'm going to celebrate the wonderful relationship that I had, and I'm going to stop looking. I'm just gonna let go, Onda. I'd left one website up that I was a member of cold spirituals. Singles on, two days later, into my inbox on this site pops John's profile. He's written me a little tiny note. When I look at his profile, yeah, that's it. I'm not going to talk to. And then I look and it says Course in miracles. This man is a course in medical student. It's very radical stuff. Course. Um, miracles on dhe. I thought, Wow. Even if there was no sexual chemistry, we were bound to be friends of banter, so I just sent to my phone number. Andi, um, we have this conversation quickly on the phone, and I know something hasn't quite jailed. I'm not sure why, but I'm a persistent soul. So, um, we discover that were booked into the same course in miracles. Caf? Talk on that. We're friends with the speaker, so we would have met a week lead later anyway. Even if we haven't met on side on, then we also have discovered that we go to the same study group. So John knew everybody I knew we only had a whole set of mutual friends talk about big. You should be together. You should be together on we meet in this caf before going to the talk and I as I'm sitting down, I kind of like the look of him. He's quite handsome fellow look, so right. But the most extraordinary thing happens. My hand brushes his hand on we both of us go. Whoa, cousin, Literally. An electric current runs between us. We just go. What was that on? I mean, it was like we'd we had known each other forever. And we walked out of that care folding homes and up to the meeting and everybody thought we were an item. On that evening, I lived close. That time I lived in Shepherd's Bush, close to where this Martin John comes back for a cup of coffee. All very, you know, the reason that John had been I picked up this slight whatever, and he explained afterwards, I have a very a BBC trained voice, right? It's kind of posh. I mean, John said it sounds like the queen Another queen would never have sex, you know, So this leg is not going to be interested in sex. And so it comes home with May and I want way. Have a bath after that. The team one for the death. Siri's. You wanted to see the bathroom? It's in my study on on my on. My have a massive number of books on this shelf. Every single one of them is about sex in one form or another on John looks at this. And maybe I made a mistake. And so our journey was completely We knew that was it that we were meant to. So we have been together ever since. But the really interesting moment was when we got to the point of having going to bed together and having a lovemaking session on dhe. I love sex, right? I've had really good sex in my lifetime of what I call the conventional sex, you know, where way trying to please the other partner. It's sort of goal driven. You have to have an erection. You have to have orgasms. Yeah, you know, it's all sort of a bit a bit stressful, actually, on dumb. So we get into bed and John says, uh, I make love in a different way. I said, yes, and he expresses to me You don't have to do anything I want system. You've got to focus on your own pleasure. Forget about me. I don't have toughened erection. I don't have an orgasm. Whatever. And it's slow. We're going to take a lot of time. Oh, my goodness. May Wasit an eye opener for me even the first time, I think Wow, this is way better than the usual right on DDE. After that, we started to read and we started to that when we went on a training course in Switzerland called the Make making Love for Couples run by a beautiful couple, Dina and Michael Richardson on. We spent 10 days with, um on it wasthe life transforming because we learned not more about all of this way of making love. I mean, the morning session was explaining the the theory in the afternoon, they said, You got to go to bed for three hours and make love even at the time. Johnson, How am I going to do that? Oh, but it wa ce amazing on it grows. It's not a way of making love that you I mean, I must admit I clicked in very quickly into it and I think the reason for that was I had understood in conventional lovemaking. There's always a drop whoever, however much you like someone, including my own husband. After two or three years of being with someone, the desire drops on the sex life. You know, you take any of the studies and statistics and you look at long term relationships. 234 years on, the sex goes, move like that, and I now understand why, as a neuroscientist, I started to think about the the way of making love That John and I do is very sensual. And it's very about the fact that the breasts are the way to awaken a woman's body, not the pictures, and that there is a orgasmic feeling that's beyond climate. There's a very big difference between orgasm and fine axe. Let the orgasmic thing is the most amazing thing. I mean, John can have multiple orgasms. I don't live alone, understand? They can have multiple orgasms without even having an erection. You know, it's extraordinary, but I realized on reading. I started to read everything I could lay my hands on about the science behind lovemaking and sex and what's happening and I realized that there is a very diff big difference in what your triggering in your neurochemistry in the two ways of making love. So one way that's what I called fast friction sex. You're triggering its goal oriented. It's stressful. You're triggering the flight and fight neurochemistry are not that chemistry is not only fighting fight, it's the addiction chemistry. So it means in order to get the same pleasure it has to get more and more and more and more exciting, and eventually you have the dip because there's a limit. You know, it's like anything. It's actually how we learn. You know, we get motivated to learn by this sort of Russia feel good, but also it's the addiction mechanism, so it's quite understandable that conventional set separates. In the end, it causes separation right this way of making up because it's slow and sensual on. There is no excitement to it. It is calm. Sex like sounds counterintuitive, doesn't hurt, but it isn't once you practice it, but that's true going tend and befriend circuits, so it's triggering a ll, the bonding the Aqsa Tosa, and it creates a really, really deep bond that that serves you not just in your own personalized, but in the workplace everywhere. If you are satisfied, completely satisfied in a tease in your relationship, you're going to do everything else better. So we actually go around saying our sex is everything. Actually, you know, it's it's very important. And so we decided we wanted to share this because on the whole, a lot of teaching is a very tantric with lots of rules and all this register on dhe, we thought, No, no, no, no. We want to help people to learn this different way of lovemaking and took to incorporate it into their own star. But also to help, too, with the tools of good relationship, which is taking responsibility for your own feelings, just key to a good relationship.

spk_1:   18:29
So when people come to you, probably one or other has decided there's a knish you on has managed to persuade the other one to come. But then even that to that point must be quite tricky. Usually get so bad that that they're kind of forced thio come to you to come tell us Come change. Yes,

spk_0:   18:49
you know, I mean, I'm 72 now and you look back at what you thought were the worst moments of your life. And you realize that with a pivotal change, moments that were really good for you in the end. Now it seems extraordinary to say the loss of a partner can actually be the gain of a new way of thinking. We have a mix of people come to us. So we've had young couples and older couples on on the whole they tend to have. It is nearly always the same thing that they have a good relationship. They love their partner. But the sex has got really boring. When sex gets boring, people want to go and search for something else. So it tends to lead to going to let you know, having Infidelities and things that upset the whole apple cart. So we have, Ah, an elder couple now that have just come to us on. Um, the sex is He's, you know, as you get a wee bit older, he's got he's had a prostate thing. He's had problems, can't get erection. So she thinks sex is over. So we're going to Well, we're meeting up with that. We're going to teach them. Sex isn't over on that. You start step by step. You can't just go in there. You, you You begin to get them to connect again. I mean, with touch and feel and and beginning to arouse a more sensual feel and to explain that sex isn't what they think it is. We have so many misconceptions. I mean, we're programmed to think of sex in a certain way. So we basically reprogramming them to think about sex in a different way. But it takes time because the conventional way of making love makes your Penis and vagina insensitive. And it takes time to build up this orgasmic amazing feeling that we have. I mean, we make love every day, Every morning before we go out. We will if we don't have much time. We have a pop in. Which means even if John, let's have an erection, I pop it, pop it inside. They've got to know each other. The vagina and the Penis actually talk to each other when you take away fear and stress and you relax into sex. So we're teaching people to relax into it. Gradually, gradually you will learn your own way, way? Tell people you know this business of the breasts on the massage of the breasts. And you know, you don't have to have a partner either. It's learning to love your own body to really love your body and the very physical experiencing ways. If you nurture a body, I do something every single morning that as all these things we do, by the way, always practice what we preach. We walk our talk. But I do something every morning that when I I like to put creams on right. But I I I say thank you hands. You're so beautiful. Thank you. Press. I love you. Thank you legs. And I do My whole body takes maybe two minutes. But if you do put cream in the morning, it's you start to really love your daughter. And of course it's the mirror thing. You also look in the mirror and say, I love you. I mean, that's hard for lots of people, but they're so simple, these tools. So we teach couples that sort of thing, that the reason that people have so much infertility is stress. And of course, this way. I mean, we have no rules. I mean, a lot of the tantric things you say you're not meant to ejaculating imaginative. We have no rules. The only thing is, we say, slow down, connect and communicate. And that's the other big, big thing that we do with couples we get him to talk about. Our first exercise is to have them sit down on. I have a whole list of all the different names through the Penis and the vagina, and I do a funny thing. You know, It's the spitting bishop on the velvet headed butler and you know all these names and sing song. And they I like the tantric term. No, the Yoni and the the Linger when the lingam is the wand of light on the Yoni is the womb of creation, you know? But we are You really get to people to talk about their sex on what what shame them is a child. We all have things like I had, you know, when I was developing, I was 10 or 11 I was in a boarding school and I got right big breasts. Really Person No. One? No one of my cat. They not nobody else had. Breast line was the only one when I was so embarrassed. I think we all of us have little things like that. The inhibitors. But if you start just a talk, it's like in Germany they're much freer in their nakedness. Now we believe you must sleep naked. Absolutely. Lost nakedness is is key to this. It may be cold or you just good. Do they sleep naked? Because that just being naked liberates in lots of ways but talking, communicating and asking for what you are saying what pleases? We don't tend to do that. You know, we seem to think that our partners ought to know. They ought to know. You know what to do, what pleases me. We're all different. What pleases you is going to be different because of your different programming. I mean, we patent match to our past in terms of how we respond. We all have blocks. We'll have grievances. We all have embarrassments. And I think the more you're open with, you know, we teach people to be really open and talk about everything on when we were doing this wonderful making love thing in Switzerland, Um, in the evening, in a lunchtime, you had to stay with your partner on Dwork on what you were doing in the evening. You'll have to get together to talk with one rule. We were only allowed to talk about sex on what had been going on for us. So did you have an orgasm? Did this work? Did you try this on? How did the breast massage work? Oh, no, we tried this. What? I mean, wow. It was liberating just to be so free on. So it's simple. Is that that's why we've called the website. We talk about sex way literally that, you know, we would run a meet up. Let's All we do is just people talk about, like, my embarrassing. Okay, What was your worst embarrassing moment? And you, You know, when you were still go over a little boy because that's where the programs get instilled. I mean, John has a lovely story, The details which I shall steal now. You know, for example, you've got little Johnny Mary. They're having a bath together. You know, Mom and Dad are there. Little Johnny starts to, you know, because Children take pleasure in their general. It's not. It's nonsense. They don't have a sexual senses. They do it. Just fiddling around, Mary says. Don't do that. That's naughty. Naughty. Don't do that. Whoa, Big program goes into him. There's something wrong down there, but a program goes into Marius. Well, doesn't it? Who? He's got something I have to be careful off on. We gather all these programs through our especially in the early days, quite unconscious programs about sex, our bodies and they're all things. If we release them just by talking on being open, you know it releases him. So we talk about sex. That's our key is Let's talk about it, guys, let's be free. Let's be open And it's liberating.

spk_1:   26:31
One of the themes and I was talking about it is peaks. I particularly enjoy the the peak story of your porn movie. Ha ha ha ha. Would you like to tell people that came about

spk_0:   26:45
it? Wow, that was a liberating experience. I tell you for us we wanted we thought. I mean, the best way to demonstrate our way of making love is to film it and make it a educational. This is how you do it, Phil. On So he went in search of a filmmaker that had experience with filming sex and in the process we came across a lovely lady. This is her real name, by the way, Erika lust and she has Ah, she has a poor inside, but it's she calls it erotica because she she wants to change conventional porn from that. You know what she calls lucky, Smart to make it into beautiful. So we go to him, you say to her, Look, would you do an educational film for us? And she says, We keep the copyright. Use it for our teaching. Sorry, we don't do that. The only the only make films about people still, But you know, we really like what you're doing. We've never, ever made a porn movie about 70 year olds having sex. We thought, Wow. Should we? I mean, in the end, it's about sharing. So we thought. Okay, why not? Why not? And so we talked to her. She's in Barcelona to Spanish. She's meet Pablo on her. You know, we do a Skype and we really like them. They're such lovely people. You think? Well, we can trust them. What? You know. And so I ask, you know, I say to her, How's it done. It is Oh, documentary style. You know this this and this and I think documentary style to Lasse to Moon Duras little baby camera. One person, Very private, very secluded, you know. Okay, that's fine. We'll manage that. And we arrive in Barcelona to do this film. They put us up in this very beautiful hotel on DDE. We're waiting in the lobby for them to come and pick us up on this young woman walks in very upright. Very. You know the reason we don't put out its itis because, of course we've been shamed about. I have the same shoulders back, tits out where she was definitely shoulders back, tits out and across her T shirt was Make me come Hopes Wow, get a slightly nervous of this point. When we get taken to the studio, then we think, Oh, my God, it's a film set studio. They're at least 20 people. There's makeup, there's wardrobe. The sound booms Is this massive student is this one bed in the middle of this enormous face with bright lights of brooms And this I mean Oh my God. We go down to the the changing room to the cloakroom to. They've given us things to wear. What should we do? A runner? Shall we do wanna? No, no, we've committed We're going to do this. And so the the idea is that we do, we do the lovemaking first, and then they do an interview with us and they film sequences and things after and so nervous Get our clothes off and there's all these people around us, then you don't. Oh, my God. I've never seen John's Penis shrink so much. It goes to the size of a charity. Uh oh. Oh, Now I'm used to cameras, so I think Okay, the whole point of this demonstration is it doesn't matter what the penises in like you can still be orgasmic and have pleasure. So we keep going on. He's having multiple orgasms in this film by the end, and we just keep going. We just Do we try and shutter that. What's nice that I tell you, they were wonderful. We always do a prayer before we make love. We always meditate together. I mean, isn't this maybe not what everybody else was doing? What we always do a meditation on. We do a prayer on gum they actually got us to do this. And it's in the film. It's very beautiful. And unfortunately we never explained to them, didn't we? That what had happened? But I don't think they actually knew. And it's a brilliant demonstration for men that sex isn't about erection of climax. It's about having multiple orgasms that John's body ripples with orgasms. You know, it's really amazing to watch on Me too are much quieter. No, I'm very quiet. But me, it sends me like the enemy. Where can describe it? You can't really put it in words. I am in some divine space that is beyond any climax I've ever experienced. No, it's not that we don't. Sometimes we will have an ejaculation, climax or whatever way have no rules. We go with the flow of it. But this this it waas the time we'd finished that film, we felt lighter didn't weigh. But then we also thought okay, we thought right, this is just going to be tucked away on her website. We did not anticipate that, actually she was going to go to town to publicize it. This is about six months on, actually forgotten about it. They'd sent his various cuts as we'd gone, they've made a very beautiful little 10 minute intro into it about us, which was really lovely. And then the rest of it is us. It is, even though I look at it like, Wow, did we really do that? But we haven't told any family members that we were doing it because we didn't think it was important thought. They never know. You never know and then they launch it. Then they launch it. And suddenly I get this Snapchat thing from my nephew is in Thailand and it's us on bed to go the naked. Well, he says, Did you know you're all over? Snap chart? Oh my God, we're everywhere. There's articles in the sun when it says poems seniors make porn met. Show this son everywhere. On, of course, John's. Jonah's Six Kids, which she has fantastic relationships move. But you know, this is when I am. I have a brother on wonderful nephews and nieces who, but my brother is is a doctor is very in the medical model. Oh my God, you know what? I'm going to say? That his sister doing a porn movie and John's kids they are not happy. They are not happy at all with that. All these e mails and they have a meeting, all of them. They sit down and they watch the field. Well, I think, My God, how are we going to do with this? Worry, Jimmy, But actually, gradually, gradually we talked to them. It becomes open. We explain our motivation that we want to share this amazing connecting thing. And actually, they see that the film is very beautiful. It's beautifully made. It really is. It's fantastic. And so, gradually we now have a much more open relationship with all of them about sex, which is amazing. I mean, the younger people can come and talk to me because I'm step mom. It's also very easy to come to me as well, but it's lovely to be able to talk to Dad in a loading way, So that has been liberating on the family front. But my brother, right? My lovely brother. Oh, my gosh. I have to just tell him, because if I don't tell him, you know, the kid's real anyway, so, um, I'm bringing that. I say, uh, George, I'm going to send you some bits and people pieces on what you two look, we've We've made a film and it's it's causing quite a stone. I don't want you to be told about it by someone else on DDE. So that's it. Then he goes and looks at everything, and he writes me this beautiful email saying, Annie, this is fantastic. Well done, your stars. What a wonderful thing to share. And I'm so proud of you. But I think what it's brought to all of us is again. We talk about sex. We all talk about it now much more openly, and I think it's the most. Making that film for us was a liberating process, wasn't it, darling? Really, Waas. You know, it's such fun to enemy knights out there for ever. Oh, we've had some lovely e mails from people, too, are watching it. We gotta an email from the couple who are in there. However there, darling nineties, eighties and nineties. And they said, Thank you for your film. It's so wonderful to hear that everybody else is having fun as well as us because, you know, there's no reason you can make love forever making love this way. No sex is for everyone at any age. But I also know that for younger people it means their sex life is staying good. They're not experiencing that dip. Know how how the pressures of you know having a young family is very stressful can be. But making love this way is very calming. It was very bonding and connecting. It creates a trust within a relationship. It isn't there in that conventional and making love. And so that's what we want to share. This is our purpose now is to share our joy with everybody else and to teach as many people as we can. How to make love this way.

spk_1:   36:57
So looking to the future moving forward. But school sex education is about not getting pregnant, not getting disease. This would be reading great way for young people to start talking about sex and thinking about sexually in a way that launches them into it into a life of lovemaking that is actually open and connecting. And

spk_0:   37:23
all we can do is to share on DDE be open. I mean, we haven't thought as faras as you know, What do you do about schools in sex education and I guess me go into schools as well, but you have to do it. I think, through online, in order to reach a lot of people. So I think down the line we will do much more of that. Because, as you say, sex education tends, was getting better. Much better. No, they don't talk about, You know, most kids are learning about sex report, and it's creating a very uncomfortable misconception about sex and what it is. So yes, I mean it is. It is teaching the openness, teaching that its relationship I don't know sharing. I think she's sharing it when I think the more we share with other people, it's the ripple effect, isn't it? They'll come out and no, perhaps we teach a young couple and they go into schools. What you share goes on and grows and grows doesn't know. So I guess our purpose is to show as much as we can in the next decade. Have along were given how long we were best with just keep sharing this and making it our focus on then the ripples out and other people will take up the battle and share. I think that's that's the way forward is to keep teaching it to lots of people giving it giving so you know, giving evidence. Say you'll take it away. Go and teach this learn teach experience your own way. Take it into schools. Take it into other people's homes. You notice both ends of the spectrum? No, it would. It would bring a zest in life tow any couple but whatever age

spk_1:   39:01
saving on the N h s.

spk_0:   39:03
Yes. Oh, my goodness me because there's so many of our health problems Aerated stress on this for me we ground our day through it and I, you know, I bounce out everyday life is fun, you know, Of course. Every day we meet challenges and stresses. But if internally you're grounded already, they just float off you. Things work better, don't I? I have experience. You don't teach you words. Either you've got you have to empower people to experience these things themselves. It's empowering. People experience. Yet words don't teach only experienced teachers. And suppose that's why we like to share by demonstrating on doing I mean we will demonstrate and physically show people this way. Lovemaking. I mean, it isn't it's not books and formula. It's really the nitty gritty. We're very open. We've just done a sexual surrogacy training in Ireland, which is where you go in and you help people that have been unable to make love for whatever reason, that there paralyzed by fear or they're paralyzed. You know, that sort of thing. And again it's opening up because this way of making love, it's easy. You know you can do it, whatever your shape, form, size, disability, whatever. And it's it's just the sharing of all these things. I think that's our job is just to share and to allow, you know, things tend to row by their own purpose. You know, if you're listening, you follow. You follow rather than push. Well, I think that's very much awful off Sophie, so we don't have big goals and plans. In that sense, you have a vision of saying I would like schools to teach this. I would like to see every couple being taught a different way or giving access to learning or trying it. I mean the whole point about sex as you can experiment. It's an adventure. I think people forget that, you know, it's extra voice in its adventure. It's fun, you know. I guess that's

spk_1:   41:14
our purpose. When I was working with use 20 years ago, Way on Dhe feels like yesterday and you are radiating and you, you, you you look so happy and your eyes are shining and you look amazing. And I wonder, I was asked, I guess what message they would give to their younger self. So from where you are now, what would you say?

spk_0:   41:43
Seal to my youngest say self, I would say I think my younger self was very closed down. Very. I thought I didn't know how things ought to be. You know, there was a perfect way of doing something. Really? No other way was right. It's taken me a while to let go of wanting to be perfect. So I'd say to my younger self, You don't have to be perfect. Just do

spk_1:   42:10
it. That's enough. Thank you. Thanks very much. It's my pleasure, but fascinating causation. Amazing experience,

spk_0:   42:18
if you should thank you for this is really fun.

spk_1:   42:25
Thanks, Annie, for your inspiring words and encouraging us to look at intimate connections and sexual

spk_0:   42:32
relationships in a more meaningful way. Thanks also to create lab films.

spk_1:   42:37
Electra TV, Higher Zone, Emmy Hotel on Everyone who came to the event goodbye for now and see you next time.