Career Cheat Code
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Career Cheat Code
076 | The Path To Impact with Faouzi Talabi and Roland Kennedy Jr
Roland Kennedy Jr. and Fauzi Talabi candidly share their non-traditional paths into philanthropy, revealing insider perspectives on grants management, program development, and creating impact from both large and small foundations. They discuss how their backgrounds in government and direct service work provided valuable skills while exploring the unique challenges and rewards of moving philanthropic capital as Black men in a historically exclusive field.
• Different pathways into philanthropy careers and why experience in other sectors is valuable
• The day-to-day reality of grants management and program roles at foundations
• How foundations value direct service experience when making hiring decisions
• The importance of maintaining community connections while working in philanthropy
• Salary differences between nonprofit and foundation roles (often 40% higher in philanthropy)
• Strategic networking tips, including Fauzi's unique success using golf as a connection point
• Finding and building relationships with mentors who understand your career ambitions
• The value of bringing your authentic self and perspectives to philanthropy
• How to research foundation salaries using resources like Candid and 990 tax forms
• The importance of negotiation when accepting foundation positions
Disclaimer:
The thoughts, views, and opinions expressed on Career Cheat Code are those of the individual guests and do not necessarily reflect those of the host, affiliated organizations & employers. This podcast is intended for informational and inspirational purposes, highlighting the guests and their unique career journeys. We hope these stories inspire you to chase your purpose, define success on your own terms & take the next step in your career.
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Host - Radhy Miranda
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Producer - Gary Batista
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I remember when I was graduating college I was like, hey, I know I want to do your job, so I'm just going to apply to jobs and foundations. He's like why? And I had to go through that exercise of explaining like, well, I saw the work that you did, I saw what that can do, I want to just be part of that. And he's like great, but go get good at something and then bring that to philanthropy. Don't just show up with no experience and don't just show up with no like perspectives on how different sectors interconnect or how things happen. Right, like, go do something and then that'll help you narrow. If, ultimately, you still want to get into philanthropy, kind of in what sector right?
Speaker 2:Welcome to Career Cheat Code. In this podcast, you'll hear how everyday people impact the world through their careers. Learn about their journey, career hacks and obstacles along the way. Whether you're already having the impact you want or are searching for it, this is the podcast for you.
Speaker 1:All. Right, gentlemen, welcome to the show. Good afternoon, good afternoon, good afternoon. Appreciate you all taking the time to connect today and really discuss your careers. This is a very special episode in that it is a different format than most of the listeners are used to. We're having two folks here that have a relationship together and also understand kind of the world of philanthropy together and are going to help us unpack that and talk about a career in philanthropy, what that looks like and kind of their experiences in different sides of philanthropy and with different functions. So, without further ado, let's start with some introductions. Roland, tell the world who you are and what you do for a living.
Speaker 3:Great Thanks for adding. Thanks for having me, roland Kennedy Jr. I'm the Grants Director at the Carnegie Corporation of New York, so my day-to-day looks like managing three incredible people two managers, one coordinator, covering our international grantmaking as well as our national grantmaking, the Andrew Carnegie Fellows as well as some executive funds. So for me, my role really covers the day-to-day of the grants management, as well as two other unique opportunities within that, including board operations, and I get to program manage the relationship with the Carnegie Archives at Columbia University. That's what my day-to-day looks like.
Speaker 1:Awesome. That sounds fun. Fauzi, what's going on on your end? What do you normally do on a nice Monday morning?
Speaker 4:Yeah, great question. So, fawzi Talabi, I work for a smaller family foundation and when I say smaller it's more so staff size rather than endowment but based out of Boston, and my role as a program associate is kind of wearing multiple hats. So I get the privilege of overseeing a smaller capital grants program, but then additionally, I get to learn a lot about the grants management side of the work. So I get to oversee the grants management support, other program officers in their day-to-day tasks, and then a lot of working with the community, listening, kind of corresponding with them, hearing what their needs are. It's really a great opportunity for me to kind of just learn the ins and outs of philanthropy and see where my kind of career can take me.
Speaker 1:That's great. I always think it's interesting for folks to understand how people know each other. Can you all speak briefly to how you all know each other and then I can chime in on how I know both of you?
Speaker 4:Yeah, sure, I guess I can start.
Speaker 4:So when I first entered the sector, I was fortunate enough that I got an opportunity to go to a conference in Baltimore and that conference is really a collective of grant makers and more so grant managers, more so grant managers. So with that being my role and being so new to the space and the sector, I was kind of lost, didn't know exactly where my footing was and who my people were. And I was fortunate enough to meet Roland and another gentleman that I still speak frequently with, stephen Casey, and they kind of took me under the wing. Just due to the fact that they kind of saw that I felt lost at times, didn't know exactly if this was the right career for me or the job for me, and I really needed those individuals that had been through it, knew exactly kind of how to navigate the waters and super grateful that I found them, because at that point in time I didn't know if I was going to make it another week, but it was really. I met them at the right time and super grateful for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and Fauzi and I, since meeting some few years ago, are now formally in a mentee mentor program through Peak Grantmaking called the Arnetta Praw Mentorship Program, and that has been going very well. As somebody who is in the Peak New England chapter, I think it's called there's not a great deal of Black representation in that chapter and so I think to have the opportunity to formally be in a mentor, mentee relationship with FALSE has been beneficial. We are both learning through that process and I think it's great that peak grant making has created that opportunity.
Speaker 1:That's great and I will say, you know, I think there's so much value in both of you joining those types of programs, right as a mentor and as a mentee, to be able to have dialogue with folks around. Maybe it's not exactly the exact role that you've had before, but you've been in philanthropy for long enough that you can kind of help instill some of that knowledge and try to help folks avoid some of the bumps that you may have had along the way. Right, and then on the mentee relationship right, it's how do I learn about the field? How do I hone in to understand if this is where I want to stay Right? Is this even the type of job that I want to continue to do? Because you're building your career and you're thinking about how you want to have impact and what you bring to the table. So it's just a very you know great time in your career to build that. For those that don't know what is PEAK, yeah, so PEAK Grantmaking is a national nonprofit that stands for Principles, equity, advocacy and Knowledge.
Speaker 3:So it is the premier nonprofit, I think, nationally that focuses on equitable grant making practices in the philanthropy sector.
Speaker 1:That's great. And, roland, do you want to tell the audience how you and I got connected?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we got connected, I believe during your time at Rockefeller Foundation when you were on the economic mobility team. Do I have that right, Correct? And then formally got reengaged through the collective, the Black Men in Philanthropy Network that has been growing for the last three years, which brings together brothers in the philanthropy sector, from grants, management, program evaluation, learning, impact comms, investments, finance, legal all the above to make sure that we all know each other and build community together.
Speaker 1:That's great, and we just have Steven Minix on the show from that collective as well, right, who you know. I think the value of such a group right is this is a volunteer run. Folks like yourself and others are like spending time to understand that it is important to cultivate spaces for people in the field and like, how do we create a space for brothers to just talk about the wins, the losses, the gripes, the stripes, all of the things right? And how do we support each other, how do we help each other? How do we co-fund together? How do we, you know, think about opportunities in the field together? How do we just recognize that?
Speaker 1:You know, the history of the field is not necessarily for us, right, and you know, I think about that often as some, especially for some of us that, like some of the larger foundations, like if some of these folks that left that wealth in the 1920s realize who was managing some of their money, like they'll be rolling in the raves Right, but like we create now a space to acknowledge things like that and also recognize how we can leverage the field to to impact communities, right, and to be intentional about communities and a lot of these organizations because of maybe that was the history, right, but the leadership there is not like that, right, and the leadership there may think very progressively about how to support communities.
Speaker 1:So I just really appreciate that space that has been cultivated now over the last few years and just welcoming me, over the last year, fauci, as you said, right, I've been in my career for over 15 years or so, but in philanthropy for less than three, right, so, like, how do I recognize my network? How do I understand what folks like about the field and the different iterations of philanthropy? Right, so many different types of foundations.
Speaker 4:No, I was going to say yeah, there's so many instances. So I used to work in the nonprofit space and I've been wearing multiple hats and it's kind of the same thing. But the nuance behind the work, right, and the rationale behind the work coming from one side you don't really know it and being on this other side it's still a learning curve and I think that having those people that have been there done that is super important for anyone that wants to try to make it in the sector.
Speaker 1:So for both of you how did you get into philanthropy and like did you know about philanthropy?
Speaker 4:as you were stepping into it, I would say no, I did not know what philanthropy was or how to get into it. Now, like I shared, I was working in the nonprofit sector, so I should have had a little bit of an inclination on where the money was coming from. But at that point in time I was really focused on the programmatic side of the work. My kind of story into this sector is that after the pandemic and COVID I took a break about a year and a half break moved down to Atlanta and started working and creating a nonprofit down there. When I came back up to Boston I was working in hospitality and just didn't know exactly what I wanted to do. But I knew that it had to be mission-driven, it had to be people-centered and it had to be really an opportunity for me to get back into the community and work with youth or be connected in changing some of the narrative for those that I used to work with, some of the narrative for those that I used to work with.
Speaker 4:So I was fortunate enough that someone randomly called me while I was at the hotel and I took the call. Usually I don't pick up a random number, but I did. Got super lucky that they saw value in my previous experiences Just being in the direct service line of work. I think anyone that is of that kind of space and has that experience brings a lot to the table for nonprofits but also for foundations, as they're trying to kind of understand what it is that the community needs. You've lived it, you understand it and you speak that language. A lot of times folks on the philanthropic side, they don't speak that language so it's harder to build those connections. So that's that was kind of my introduction into it and yeah, definitely not the traditional path.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my path is not that dissimilar from Fauzi's. You know, I was working in government and so, as the saying goes, and specifically legislative government, which has been the nearly 100 percent of my experience working in government, is all legislative. And as the saying goes, if your boss loses, you have no job or you have to go through a different process to find a new role in legislative government. If you're a member of Congress whether that's the state legislature or federal loses, it's not as seamless to go from one role to the next in some cases.
Speaker 3:So for me, I had to rethink what my next steps were, what my career was going to be, and thankfully it was a friend of mine from college that sent me a job description that I didn't even have an imagination for and I applied for it. Didn't get the initial job but got a callback similar to what Fauzi said some two to three weeks later and did get a role, one that I didn't even apply for. And it was a fascinating journey since and it's been 10 years in this work across different types of organizations, from donor advised funds to living donors to now an endowment type of foundation. So it's opened my lens and my mind to different aspects of philanthropy, what's possible, some of the things that aren't as possible, the C3 side, the 501c4 side, and getting a full sense of what philanthropic capital can really do, what it's supposed to to do, and really thinking in broad, big picture steps in terms of what my career in this work should be and then how it connects to purpose.
Speaker 3:I think for me, anything that I've ever done is purpose driven and purpose built. I don't like to do anything just for flex. It has to be something that's service oriented. That's what I'm used to. It's what I come from, from my family, from my parents and grandparents. And so, for me, philanthropy specifically the side of philanthropy that I care most about, which have to do with electoral democracy, economic justice, media journalism, press freedom and education funding, whether in the US or elsewhere, those are the topics that I think about and wake up thinking about, go to sleep thinking about. Are those topics? So any sort of funding aspect that's focused on that? The more I've learned about where those opportunities are in the sector, the more I'm connected to it, and so, going from government, you know, a thousand and one years ago through today, that's been the thread and the theme throughout my career, because those are the things I know that I will bring my most authentic self to.
Speaker 1:So to me, you know, regardless of whether it's government or philanthropy, the purpose has been the same, but I had to find that, and I didn't know that philanthropy would be one of the vehicles to be able to do that- Absolutely, and I think that's so important, right, because a lot of us are very mission driven, very purpose driven, and we sometimes just don't know the different avenues that we can channel that Right. Right, like, how do we understand that? I was fortunate enough to know about philanthropy when I was 16 years old. I was in a high school in Harlem and we were a public school with a very savvy principal that secured philanthropic funds for programming. So we had lacrosse teams, robotics, chess teams, a bunch of mentorship programs right, and college-ready programs specifically. So I saw the value in philanthropy really early on. Right, I was able to really connect with someone at a foundation and understand how the levers can work, what their role meant at least from what I could understand at age 16, right, like, I saw the programming, I saw the end results, but understanding from the macro and all of that it took me a little while after that.
Speaker 1:I was at least fortunate enough to be exposed to philanthropy early on.
Speaker 1:But I realized a lot of paths are usually more like YouTube, right, where you stumble upon it or you realize if you're mission-driven and you're doing work in nonprofit, direct services or in government, you realize there are other factors at play and you then tap into that. Would love to hear from a more functional standpoint, right? So, like for me, I got my role at Rockefeller by applying on LinkedIn. I didn't know anyone there, I just applied blindly and was called back because I had experience with government and experience of developing the types of programs that we were funding in my team at the time. Applied blindly and was called back because I had experience with government and experience developing the types of programs that we were funding in my team at the time. We'd love to hear what you all think you brought to the table and I want to be clear about it, because I think there are people that are trying to pivot into this space and would love for them to hear how they can position themselves to ultimately get into philanthropy.
Speaker 4:Would love for them to hear kind of how they can position themselves to ultimately get into philanthropy. Yeah, so I actually want to lead with something that I recently came across that another gentleman told me about, and he said I was struggling in a sense with kind of my day-to-day tasks and he said you got to give yourself grace, right, give yourself grace because you are new to this space or you may not know everything Nobody knows everything, right but you have certain values and you have certain experiences that have shaped you and are invaluable to whoever it is that you're working with and for. So I think that that is kind of where I would like to believe was, or I'd like to think that that was, the main driving force into why I was hired Along with. I have a college degree, right, you have to have some of the baselines for most jobs, but at the same point in time, the lived experiences, the ability to communicate with others and I think, inherently just the general ability to listen, is super important in the role that I have on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker 4:So for me, I may receive anywhere from 15 to 20 info calls a day, and that's from the community externally, and they're curious about what it is that we do, how do we operate, what are the potential opportunities? And a lot of times for me I really just sit there and listen, sit there and absorb what it is that their work is focused on. Are there any shared experiences? Are there other programs that we've kind of funded in the past that are similar? And if there aren't, if there isn't a correlation or if there isn't an opportunity, it's being able to kind of redirect them in the right direction, give them additional resources to where they can find that funding or maybe they can have an introduction call and start building that relationship.
Speaker 4:So my general ability to really just care and want to make sure that everyone else is succeeding, I think is really really important in this role. I think that's one of my strongest suits and what I bring to the table here and then also additionally, like I said, I can do the basic job of grants management. I can stay and be task oriented and all of those things that are kind of required. But it's the non-shiny objects that you're going to put on your resume, it's the soft skills that I think are really important in how you can be successful in this space.
Speaker 3:Yeah like what Falzi said, I think that this sector, this industry, is somewhat still a closed door. I can actually leave out the somewhat. It's still a closed door, like a number of other industries, and I think that you know, the more internship opportunities, fellowship opportunities you can find as a pathway into philanthropy, the better. There aren't many that exist, especially for people that look like us. You know, and I think you know, what the Bowie State Philanthropy Initiative is doing is a great example of what I would love to see more of in the sector. You know, intentionally targeting creating more diverse opportunities, especially for black people, to enter into philanthropy, and also set the lens of possibility of not just entering philanthropy for any job but as leaders Like. That's a very different approach and thought process, because I don't know when I entered this work if I had an imagination for executive leadership, because that's not what I saw. You know, president, president's offices have certainly diversified as well over the last 10 years, but you know, representation, for the sake of representation, has also not been quite the bar that I expected it to be in philanthropy. You know it's a low bar, mid bar, high bar, depending on what you're looking for. So I think that I would first go back to you know what are you drawn to If you want to work in philanthropy, why. You know what is it that you care about? Have you targeted the type of organizations that work on the issue areas of programs that you care about? What type of role do you want? Do you want to be on the grants management side, or do you want to be a grant maker? Do you want to mix them? Both those roles also exist, similar to what Fauzi does. I mean he gets to be in both both the grant making and the grants management side. He gets to be in both both the grant making and the grants management side. That's a very unicorn type of role, but they're out there. Or do you want to do comms? Do you want to do evaluation, learning and impact? Do you want to do investments? We need more finance and investment, diverse finance and investments, people doing this work who are not named Bob, james or Rob. True story, I think. The data is that the majority of people that do finance and investments in the philanthropy sector have one of those three names, so you know there's potential to change that as well. It's a very challenging door to break down, though, or brick wall, regardless of how you look at it. So I think you know it's getting clear on both of your whys. What is it that you want to do? How do you want to go about doing that? What is it that you want to do? How do you want to go about doing that?
Speaker 3:The role to me is the last part of that equation it's first getting clear on the why and then figuring out what type of role that connects mostly to you, that makes the most sense for you to step into, and then how to go about doing that and talking to brothers like us, other people in the sector that can be trusted and are approachable and who are also willing to share some of the game approachable and who are also willing to share some of the game.
Speaker 3:Because, you know, I remind people often that this is not charitable work, you know. Sure, from the IRS perspective and whatnot, yes, there are charitable rules to giving, but philanthropy is a type of business and a type of capital, and so I think, the more that we emphasize that and the for lack of a better word professionalism that goes into thinking about it as a career and a lifestyle, I think that changes the way that people think about approaching the sector and coming into it. So that would be, you know, my advice on how to get started with that conversation and then lead into whatever that role looks like that conversation and then lead into whatever that role looks like.
Speaker 1:And I love that, right, because that reminds me of something that you know the person that I mentioned earlier that was funding was supporting some of the work in my high school. That person is my mentor now. Right, and that person has. I remember when I was graduating college I was like, hey, I know, I want to do your job, so I'm just going to apply to jobs and foundations. He's like why? Right, and I had to go through that exercise of explaining like, well, I saw the work that you did, I saw what that can do, I want to just be part of that. And he's like great, but go get good at something and then bring that to philanthropy. Don't just show up with no experience and don't just show up with no like perspectives on how different sectors interconnect or how things happen. Right, like, go do something. Happen. Right, like go do something and then that'll help you narrow.
Speaker 1:If, ultimately, you still want to get into philanthropy, kind of in what sector? Right, because you get into philanthropy and care about birds, you can get into philanthropy and care about trees, sustainability, youth, work, workforce and businesses. Right, like, whatever the thing is. But I think until you kind of explore what the value is that you bring, or if it's systems right, whatever that looks like you know to go out there and ask yourself those questions first, understand kind of what, not only what you want to get out of philanthropy, but what you're bringing to philanthropy as well, so that you can continue to add value to the field and change things and become some of those folks that are then, as Roland said, right, giving out some of the game and supporting others in their journey.
Speaker 1:So that we're a little more clear, because our roles in philanthropy are very different. So when I was at the Rockefeller Foundation, my role was really to be a grant maker, so to find and partner with organizations that were doing things on the ground in different cities, supporting entrepreneurship, supporting families throughout the country. But I know that's different for your roles, right. So we'd love to also discuss that, because I think it's important for people to understand that there are different types of roles in philanthropy and not just a program officer role, not just whatever you see as the CEO that's doing all the interviews somewhere. So what do y'all do? What does your day-to-day look like? What are you ultimately tasked with and responsible for?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I would say that my experience is a little bit different just due to the fact that I am part of a smaller team, so it's one of six staff members and we are at a family foundation. So the root of the work that we do is really making sure that our trustees understand and are part of the process as well of our grant making right. That could be the evaluation and making sure they understand exactly what it is their money is doing. That can be from a programmatic lens and saying what type of programs do you want to create within your portfolios to execute on your vision and how you wish to impact the community? And then, additionally, for me it's a little bit different because I do do programmatic work and I also do do grants management work. So, like I shared before, super lucky that I get to learn multiple different skill sets and wear multiple different hats on a day-to-day basis. So let's just say it's a Monday in the summertime. It's going to look a little bit different than a Monday in fall, but Monday in the summertime might be a lot more research-based as it kind of slows down for us. So it'd be analyzing how our programs work this past year, specifically in my program area of smaller capital giving, figuring out what types of projects were funded, are there any trends in regards to what people are requesting, what is the general number of people served and are there kind of gaps in our issue areas that we're trying to address? So the other element would be during like a peak season, I would call it. There's a lot of site visits, there's a lot of grant reviews, application reviews, and then it's also from a grants management standpoint. There are other program areas that are dispersing funds. So it's creating the grants in our grants management database, right. It's making sure all the transmittal letters and all of the other technical elements of executing and actually giving money out are completed, and then it's also being ready to support any program staff as it relates to board meetings. So just a general board preparation.
Speaker 4:So again, like I said, it's wearing a lot of different hats and learning a lot of different things and skill sets. And time management is now my new best friend, because without it you're just not going to be successful, right. But then it's also creating systems for yourself to where you can be more efficient in your work, right, understanding kind of where you are in the year and projecting what your workload is going to be. That's something that I'm super passionate about right now. It's super random, right. It's not something that I would have ever thought would be really important to the work that I do, but now it's creating systems, understanding how can I get ahead and then also learning how to hold others accountable and managing up. So that's one of my biggest goals this year is creating those systems so I can manage up.
Speaker 4:And I think for anybody that is new in this space, that may be at a smaller foundation or even that may be in a nonprofit and wearing multiple hats and you may have to report up because everyone is kind of working together Learning the kind of tools that will allow you to be effective in managing up is really paramount to your success, and it's not necessarily just because you want to get a task done, but it's teaching you how to be an effective leader down the line. So I think that those kind of day-to-day tasks are super, super important for me and my growth, but they also teach you kind of if you want to be in a different role. They're all transferable skills that you will need to be successful in anything. It's not just philanthropy, it could be in the business space. It could be in healthcare, it could be anywhere.
Speaker 3:I love that answer because my roles over the years have covered majority grants management, but also programs and comms over the last 10 years and I hold on to that greatly and also don't dismiss my government experience as well, which was legislative and communications as well. And so I think all that creates a picture into my day-to-day, because the grants management side of philanthropy is often still talked about or deemed administrative or for lack of a better term. But I still hear it as back office or support staff and I resist that and have resisted that narrative for the last 10 years because I one don't think that roles like that really speak to the realities of what the possibilities of these roles are For some organizations. Yes, perhaps that is the case, but I think if you're talking from the perspective of the top 30 or 40 funders in the world maybe even the top 50, you know that is not what these roles have been, even if that is still the belief that many who still even occupy these roles think, because that has been the narrative for so long. So when I approach the work, as you know, you are a strategic voice and thought partner with not for other departments, including programs which you can often feel like foundations are created for and benefit program teams the most, be able to step into that narrative and leadership style to say yes, but I also belong in the space and can think through and speak on and activate on the very issues that we fund. I might not be the decision maker on what gets funded, but how it gets funded equally matters both for you, my colleague and peer, as well as for the organization overall. And I think the lens that grants professionals see is an organizational lens, that is an immediate strategy paradigm when you get to see not just what a particular team is doing but you get to see how money flows and capital moves across the organization, across different grantees, what's being funded, what's not being funded, how it's going about various geographies and strategies.
Speaker 3:And to not lend a voice to that is to me the biggest missed opportunity on the grant side that I think this subsector inside of philanthropy is just catching up to. But I'm also mindful that, having been in it the majority of my time over the last 10 years, that it really is the side of philanthropy that is most compliant using that word intentionally to rules, regulations, safety, security and some of the things that are not necessarily aligned with rocking the boat or thinking outside of the box, coloring outside of the lines. I'm very mindful of that too, and people have to show up where they are on their various journeys. With that to me, I think I showed up from the jump with that sort of mindset, and it's something that those other things that I just named, the characteristics and values that I listed, are things that I don't adhere to and don't plan to, and I also realized you don't have to. You know and still be able to do this work and flow with the rest of your peers and colleagues in the organization. That's what my day-to-day looks like and that's what I plan for that to continue to look like. You know't. Think that coloring side the lines, sometimes, sure, but other times no, and I think for my day to day I get to manage again three incredible people at one time, Four in my role, having historically covered data, grants management and knowledge management, is unique in that respect because it allows me to think spatially again, not just organizationally but sector-wide.
Speaker 3:And also that comes with being able to do board service, whether it be grant making, barbershop books or black film, space, streetwise partners, whatever it may be. That, to me, also gives that sense of spatial thinking that I can apply to my day-to-day, especially if I'm getting a question around grantmaking in China in the morning and then grantmaking to an OFAC-related country in the afternoon. All of that requires skills related to flexibility, adaptability, influence, being able to speak multiple languages on a given day. That is part of the day-to-day as well. That requires a sense of being a generalist to the extreme, and that is part of the day-to-day as well. That requires a sense of being a generalist to the extreme and that is part of what is fun for me. I don't like silos, so I think being able to tap into those different conversations and different outcomes, different expectations within my own team, but also across teams, to me is a leadership quotient that I really want to double down on and something that I don't think some of the other departments really offer in that respect to be able to think and act generally in that way. But then you have to know what to do with it and that's what I like to encourage the next generation of folks coming up to really think and act like.
Speaker 3:But then Fortune also favors the prepared. Don't go into a program meeting if you haven't read their strategy, know what their budget is. Know what their priorities are. Don't go into a program meeting if you haven't read their strategy. Know what their budget is. Know what their priorities are. Don't just go in thinking that you can talk their game without knowing what it is and knowing what they care about. So fortune does certainly favor the prepared. So be prepared, but also show up like you belong. Show up like you belong and then act like it too. That is a skill in and of itself in a sector that to me, sometimes can be a bit insecure, but not by choice. I think some of it is just the culture and how philanthropy and some foundations have treated grants management. But it doesn't have to be that way, and so that has been largely my leadership style.
Speaker 1:That's great and I could definitely see that Right.
Speaker 1:I feel like my understanding of at least the folks that I've met in grants management is definitely some of that generalist kind of approach, but also like the safeguarders of what's happening throughout the organization, right, like the folks that are seen across, understanding, as you all said, the trends, the values, the equities, the inequities, what's happening, and then being able to speak to that both on an organizational and then on a sectors level.
Speaker 1:Right, and then being able to speak to that both on an organizational and then on a sectors level right, like there's so much value in that. And you all in grants management have to be pretty good at whatever the program areas are and understand it enough to have some of those conversations right. Versus I was more on the program side Like I just basically have to be good at the thing that I'm doing, the thing that the other program team is doing, and be able to show up in all the different spaces and make sure that everyone feels like you are in partnership with them and understand what they do enough to have a real conversation around it.
Speaker 3:So, and let me also add, because Fauzi said something that stuck with me around listening is a word that he used in his answer, and I would also say part of the leadership, regardless of title, because I know Satanya Fair, the president of peak grant making, talks about being title agnostic often, and I think that there's a high level of truth to that too, depending on, again, your belief in how you show up in your respective organization and role. And to me I think it is also learning how to lead with questions when you don't have the answer per se to a given problem. But my default is not to tell any program team or colleague internally no, that's not what I was used to in government and that was certainly not what I was used to for, especially the first six years of my career, which was largely working with Silicon Valley funders, which I thought would be the theme throughout my career, because I didn't seem to be able to get jobs with any other types of organizations or funders except those working from the Silicon Valley, and that had its pros and cons, but one of the pros, I think, was learning that this is a cohort of people that don't like to hear no, who don't live in the realm of possibility, of no. It's always about how do I end up getting ultimately what I want and figuring out creative ways to do that. And that has not left me, and I think it's never really a no, it's always, you know. All right, let's figure this out, let's see how we can get there. You know, can you answer X that leads to Y? That'll get us to Z. If it doesn't get us to Z, let's go back to B and figure out how we got there from the jump To me.
Speaker 3:That is the network weaving of leading with questions, you know, and sort of that epistemic community that you're creating with colleagues internally to ultimately get to what is it that they want to accomplish. You know we talk a lot about impact in this space, right, which is has its own pros and cons of you know, what is our impact? I don't particularly like that question so much, especially from a foundation, but you know, if anything can be measured, you can have impact. But I think what most people are really asking is what is our point of interest, especially as a funder, because you know, ultimately we aren't the ones having impact. It's those, you know, creating impact in the world and we're trying to figure out how their impact and our interests merge.
Speaker 3:I think that's what we're really getting to, and the GM seat can help get you closer to that answer, especially if you're a social science funder like my organization. You're never going to get to exact, you know so there's always questions to be asked and you know you're at that point of. There's always a somewhat more or less gap between what that impact looks like. That's the point of opportunity for more questions where that impact and interest merge. So I think the more that we do that, the more credibility that you gain inside of these organizations where knowledge is seen as valuable and your ability to generate it.
Speaker 1:Can you all tell us what is your favorite part of your role and the most challenging part of your roles?
Speaker 4:Yeah, for me it's pretty easy. I would say my favorite part is being able to get out into community right, being able to kind of see programming happen and see the potential of what grant funds can do for those communities, because a lot of times we are sitting in these silos and we're behind a desk and behind a computer screen and we know the funds are going out the door but not everyone is privileged enough to be able to see the programming happen or see where it started and kind of where it's going and the potential it can have. And so I would say that that's my favorite part. And on the flip side of the coin, when we are in our kind of process of deciding who we are going to fund and who we are going to support, the no's are tough man, like saying no to an organization that has a really strong program and honestly deserves the funding but there just aren't unlimited funds. That's one of the hardest parts of my job, I'd say. And then just being able to be honest. I think that that's the other part of what I do. Best is just being fully open to sharing the hard details and making sure that I'm not wasting their time right, because I have been on the other side of the coin.
Speaker 4:I have been a part of development teams and creating grant applications, and it's just a waste of time where the funder strings you along, right, and they say, oh, there may be an opportunity next year, oh, there may be an opportunity for the next cycle, right. I'd rather be fully transparent and honest and say right now there just isn't a fit. I don't see alignment. Here may be other resources that you could tap into. I'd be happy to make an introduction, right.
Speaker 4:So I'd say that it's really those two things Right now. I'm in the middle of that process, so we are going through our applications and I'm getting ready to say no to the first batch, and it is something that I think about leading into it and how I can be available for them if they have any questions. But I like to lead and think and lean into the good parts, right, because when you're able to share the trustees' visions and be able to kind of help facilitate the use of these grant funds and being able to see how impactful a sprinter van might be for a program that's serving inner city youth that just want to play soccer but they just don't have reliable transportation Like that's. That's a win in my book and that's what keeps me coming back every single day, so that's what I lean into.
Speaker 1:That's great, Actually, Ken, before Roland jumps in there, can I also ask you because I appreciate all that you said there and one of the things you mentioned was just your favorite part being still being able to see the work and the end result Wondering if you could speak a little bit about that transition coming from direct services to the foundation side, because I've always seen philanthropy as one of the challenges can be that you're kind of that step removed so you don't get to always see and have the direct connection with the folks as you did in your previous role.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So that, honestly, that was my deal breaker. If I wasn't going to be able to be out in community, I wasn't going to take the role. So for me, like people are rooted and they're the center of everything I do, professionally and personally, and that's kind of what has gotten me to this point.
Speaker 4:I can think back to just even where I was born, right Like I was born in Africa and moved here to America by the grace of my mother being able to say I am going to sacrifice my first son and say here's an opportunity for you to have a better life. So for me, it's all about paying it forward, because I understand what my mother did for me and it's not just my mother, it's my stepmother, she's done the same thing. It's my cousin, she's done the same thing. So for me, women have been super impactful in kind of where I am today and they all taught me how to pay it forward. So I never wanted to lose that.
Speaker 4:So for those of you that are kind of in the nonprofit space and are thinking about making that transition, if that is at the core of who you are, don't sacrifice that because you will be miserable, like you will just not enjoy the work because you aren't doing what you love to do. You will just not enjoy the work because you aren't doing what you love to do. And if being around community and being in community is kind of what keeps you coming back and what is your North Star, don't sacrifice that for any amount of dollars and money and opportunities, because, yes, you may be able to make more money in philanthropy, but you will be miserable if you're not rooted in your beliefs, and I think that that's kind of what drives me and what keeps me kind of coming back every single day and every year.
Speaker 3:That's a hard answer to follow, but it's, it's. My answer is the same. You know what is the most challenging and I think the biggest opportunity is managing people. It's a tough job and it's the most fulfilling part of my career to date, really, and I think it has taught me so many things that we don't even have time to unpack on this call today. But I think it's something about watching people become unafraid and more familiar with their own dopeness and just tapping into on dopeness, you know, and just tapping into.
Speaker 3:I don't manage from deficits. I have no interest in that, I don't. I don't care so much about focusing on people's deficits. I like to be aware of them, I like to coach through them as necessary. But I also have learned, you know just in my time in my current role, that I really want to focus on people's gifts and the ones that they know about and the ones that they don't and the ones that they are most afraid of. And that is a process you know and you have to also align. I say you don't have to do anything, but I have chosen my leadership style to to to be more adaptable to people's long term interests.
Speaker 3:Not everybody wants to be a director. Not everybody wants to be a director. Not everybody wants to be a president of one of these organizations, whether for a living donor, an endowment or advisory firm or whatever it may be. You learn that as you go. Some people are happy growing in place, and that is totally fine, and you have to support them as well and help them on their journey to grow in place. Not everybody wants a promotion. Some people just want the raise and that's okay to support them in that, and that does not have to be at the sacrifice of growth and other opportunities that come along with that too. I'm like get to know your people and I think you know.
Speaker 3:The intentionality required to be a people manager and director of the team has also taught me you have to be very deliberate to be a bad boss, because I think a lot about my people, I think a lot about my team. I cross Park Avenue or you know certain visits to the office and I'm like you know, I wonder if we're covering this, or I wonder if we are doing that, or I wonder how you know one of my managers is thinking about this. I should support them on that. I should put them on to whatever program that is or whatever it may be. I think a lot about my team and you know, and also how to support them and also helping them navigate challenges, challenges that they own, that then become my challenges because they picked up on it, or something that now has become either a stumbling block or hurdle to their progress or challenge, internally or externally. You also, as the team leader, have to figure that out and help them navigate through that and still keep the culture intact. And so that is the job Managing and directing.
Speaker 3:Managing people and directing a team is the job. Managing and directing. Managing people and directing a team is the job. And it is a 24 hour a day job because you know sometimes your people might get sick, and it's a text message at nine o'clock or 6am or whatever it may be, and you still have to be on and show up for them as if you were equally as interested. As if they're coming to you with a project budget that has some questions from a grantee that put all types of things in there that you have no idea what they're doing. That happens too.
Speaker 3:So it is the ultimate test of flexibility, not a flex, and it also means that there are times when I need to take a backseat or passenger seat role and let somebody else drive on something.
Speaker 3:Let them get some shine and some star power. Let them get used to being in front of a room or leading a training or teaching and cultivating that as a skill too, because leadership, again, is not just about the title, it really does come to experience and some bosses don't want to give that up. But since this question is about you know, fauzi, and I, I'll keep it about me is I have learned to enjoy giving some of that up and saying, no, you lead this and take this on, I'll be here to support you, coach you, direct you, but I'll be taking the behind the scenes role. We can be right in this office that I'm sitting in and just keep it moving, but for the most part, you know that has been, you know, the greatest joy and the greatest challenge of this role, but also, I would say, career wise, at least in philanthropy today, of this role, but also, I would say, career-wise, at least in philanthropy today.
Speaker 1:As you all continue to grow in your leadership in the field. Can you all share any resources, fellowships, books, podcasts, things that have helped you all continue to grow in this space?
Speaker 4:So for me, I would say that I don't have any resources as it pertains to philanthropy, but I do have kind of best practices that I've used for myself to get myself to where I wanted to be at.
Speaker 4:So when I was working in the hospitality sector, I knew that I didn't want to be there forever and I was intentional about how I was networking. I knew that if I wanted a career or a job in a specific space that was going to enable me to be able to afford to live in greater Boston and if you want to look up how much it is to live in greater Boston, you'll understand why I think that I had to be strategic about who I was networking with. So one thing that I did was I picked up a golf stick or a club and I went to the driving range. It was I picked up a golf stick or a club and I went to the driving range, and the reason I did that was because I knew there would be individuals there that would see me as like oh wow, what is this black guy doing at the driving range? First, but two, they would see that I was actually good at golf. And three, they'd want to learn more about me and it's really funny because almost every job or except for this one, almost every job that I've gotten has been facilitated at a driving range. I don't know why, but that's where I've networked the best. So, figuring out how you can network what it is that you want to accomplish in that individual call or conversation with that person and a lot of times it's not approaching it from a lens of what can you do for me. But, again, what I said before is listening, right, listening to that individual, their story, how they got to where they are, what their skill sets are, what did they have to develop, what were their challenges along the way. And a lot of times people are going to talk about their families, right, and being mindful and intentional about listening and, when you circle back, lead with family or lead with their passions. That's been invaluable. It's something that is a skill set for me and I just do it authentically. But in anything that I do, it's always through networking and seeing how I can help others. Or, again, just listen to what they got going on.
Speaker 4:But as it relates to resources, I think one thing that I've started to develop and think about is being mindful and intentional about how I see myself in the world and in the space of the professional setting. One thing that I've started to do is create mind movies. I don't know if you're familiar with what mind movies are, but it is, in a sense, a way for you to project and create the life or the career or the space that you wish to live in. So you can do it for your personal, you can do it professionally.
Speaker 4:What I've decided to do is professionally create a mind movie of what type of role I want, where do I want that job to be, how much do I want to make, what is the impact that I want to have, what types of people am I working with?
Speaker 4:And it's a literal movie that you watch every single day before you start your job or you start work, and it's just being intentional about seeing it and repetitively seeing it. So then it's almost like you're living it already right, so you're not surprised when that door opens up and you're prepared. That's the biggest thing for me, because again, I think philanthropy or the professional setting, it's just about how you relate to people and if you learn, a lot of jobs will just teach you the skill sets along the way. But you got to be a good person, you got to be kind of a team player and being willing to listen, and if you don't have those kind of soft skills again, as I referred to before, nobody's going to want to work with you or work for you. So developing those and understanding those early on is super important.
Speaker 3:I'm currently rereading this book called Quiet by Susan Cain.
Speaker 3:There are a number of people that don't believe that I'm actually an introvert, because I spend a lot of time with and around people, but I generate and I see that left already. It's true, I'm very much an introvert and I generate most of my I think, my best thoughts and thinking alone. Or, you know, walking the dog or you know, in those moments, or being by the water, you know, and not necessarily from you know large collaborations or summits or whatnot. I enjoy that too, but I realized that I am my best self in those other spaces. Or, you know, send me out outside of London and like the English countryside or something like with a Tolkien book. I mean that sounds like a dream world to me, but I say that to say Quiet is one of those books that is about leadership, especially given that the majority of executives and people that tend to get the promotions and whatnot tend to be extroverts.
Speaker 3:And so what does it look like, when you are more of an introverted leader, to get the same type of opportunities? And thinking about that from a professional perspective, but also as a senior leader in an organization that you know ultimately inspires to be an executive in an organization.
Speaker 3:So that I am rereading that, but also thinking about something that Fauzi said in terms of the core meaning of this call about mentorship. I think about one of my former mentors and I say former because she passed away during the height of the pandemic. I think about Anita Stell from Washington DC, one of the first Black women to have a lobbying firm in DC. And I think about our last conversation that we had at the Salt Line right there in Navy Yard in Southeast DC. That was right between my move between DC and New York.
Speaker 4:And she said.
Speaker 3:You know one thing that I want you to remember to what Fauzi even said earlier about. You know what women, specifically Black women, have done for brothers like ourselves. She's like I really don't want you to ever forget what Black women have done for you, whether it be me, whether it be your mother, your grandmother, whatever that may be. But I also want you to take more risks to jump into the eight foot end of the pool, to not regret having failed for your lack of success in trying and you know we wrote out a number of examples, and she even brought in a brother from Capitol Hill that it was so interesting. She's like I want you to see that I could get you the job that you want on Capitol Hill, and I also don't want you to take it. I just want you to see how to do it. I want you to see how I went about it and leverage those skills for when you need to be utilitarian and have relationships that are just about you. Do for me, I do for you. There's nothing wrong with that. You have some more genuine relationships that are just about you do for me, I do for you. There's nothing wrong with that. You have some more genuine relationships that are built on utilitarianism. But also you really want to get to know that person beyond just what they can do for you and for what you can do for them. Have those people too, and then also make sure that you know your tribe. Make sure you know the people that are your day ones, your day twos, your day threes. Keep them close, cultivate those relationships intentionally, deliberately Invest in those people, answer their emails, take their calls and do it quickly. Show the sense of urgency that you care about them because of who they are contacting. You Talk to anybody and everybody, but really give the special attention to those who are in your day one, twos and threes. And I have not forgotten that, and I watched her do that time and time again, even when she let me get some experience in her lobby shop and see how those relationships work.
Speaker 3:And so for me, among the myriad of mentors that I've had, whether it be Marcus McGrew and Steve Casey on this side of the house on philanthropy shout out to Satanya Fair and Susan Harrison as well in that conversation or some of those in government, some of those in corporate academia as well.
Speaker 3:You need a mosaic of mentors that really get a shape of what it is that not only you want to do in work, in profession, but also life.
Speaker 3:And knowing that you get a choice in what mentors tell you, you don't have to do anything that they offer you, which is why I think it's even stronger and more powerful when you know why you want to use that person's time and when you are deliberate and intentional about approaching them for what they have to offer you and then what you can give back to them.
Speaker 3:It is a give and take with the ultimate purpose of getting something mutual out of that relationship for the betterment of you both. And then knowing that they also have experience whether that be professional or just life experience generally to offer you, so that perhaps you don't make some of the same mistakes, or maybe you do and you learn how to do something a little bit differently. So I think about Anita, I think about the other people I name, I think about where I am now and I think about the gratefulness and thankfulness that I hold as the two values I'm holding this year in the mix of everything else going on in the world that the Blacksonian down in DC, the National Museum of African-American History and Culture.
Speaker 3:He said you know, one thing that we have to remember as black people in the space is that we are the privileged oppressed, and part of being the privileged oppressed is that we get to do incredible work like this. We get to give money away or help give money away. We get to move the most flexible capital in the world. What is there to complain about? But on the other side of that is there are still a number of reminders that we don't belong, that there are reminders that we have to generate our own sense of belonging, that we are not DEI hires, that we are not, you know, scapegoats for some broader picture of diversity that doesn't actually exist in reality. And that is the bigger challenge.
Speaker 3:When I'm talking with a brother like Fauzi or others that are coming up in this space or have been in the space for as long as I have. That is the differential, where it's like oh no, we belong and here's why. And we're going to lift each other up to remind each other that we belong in this space. That goes well beyond mentoring, that goes beyond sponsorship, that is self-determination and philanthropy, where the majority of people who do the work and who are decision makers don't necessarily look like us, but can, and even in that, there are some other unique challenges that come with that, but also opportunities, and we'll focus on both, and so I'll leave that at that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, and Roland, you reminded us earlier about stepping into your own dopeness and understanding kind of who you are and what you bring to the table and the fact that like like I say this very humbly, but also like I'm really ill at my job, like I know what I'm doing, so like respectfully Right, I'm like I know what I'm doing, so like respectfully right.
Speaker 1:So like there's no way that I'll be in a room with some folks and they'll look at my hire a little different because I'm I'm really good at what I do. I say that because, as you as you spoke, it just is a good reminder like no, we bring a ton to this table, and like it'll be really challenging for you to convince me otherwise. Yeah, fauzi, you mentioned earlier being thoughtful about stepping into philanthropy also, as you were thinking about cost of living and the difference in salaries that you can get in philanthropy versus sometimes in direct service work. Right, we'd love for both of you to speak a little bit about your experience with kind of what that salary differentiation is between government or direct services and also if you all have thoughts on resources that people can go check salary comparisons as they're thinking about getting into philanthropy.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So it's general knowledge that the nonprofit sector will, in a sense, pay maybe 40% less than philanthropy, right? So, if I just speak to my previous experiences, I had the opportunity to be a program manager and that salary was again, this is dating back to maybe 2020, a little bit before then that salary was about $50,000, a little bit before then that salary was about $50,000, right Compared to if I were in that position on the philanthropic side, it might be three times as much as that, depending on the foundation, depending on the geographic area, depending on the scope of work. So again, yes, you may be able to make more money in philanthropy or on this side of the coin, but I do want to urge folks to find the right fit, and there are people out there that will kind of give you the honest, honest assessment of what that right fit may be for you. And then, if you find yourself in the space and you realize that it's not the right fit, you just have to find your network and, like Roland said, find your tribe. And find your tribe early on, right? Because when something isn't going right, those are the people that you're going to lean on to stay in this space, and I'm only speaking to kind of people of color and black men because that's who I am. We need more of us in this space and we need more of us to kind of champion the next generation and the next cohort of Black men and Black women in this space. So as people kind of get discouraged maybe about what it is that they're doing on a day-to-day or kind of the environment they're in, I urge them to find their people, find their tribe and don't give up because you are super important and we do need more of us in this space.
Speaker 4:So right now I'm in the programmatic side and grants management side. Historically speaking, grants managers or grants management side of the work may get paid a little bit less than the programmatic side. Again, as I shared, depends on the foundation, depends on the scope of work, but you can make close to, if not more than, a comfortable salary to live kind of where I'm at in greater Boston. So that scope is, if you're single, don't have any kids and don't have any debt, it might be anywhere from 75,000 entry or I'd say maybe 65,000 entry upwards, to maybe 85, 90, if you have experience just starting out into this sector. So, and then it can go all the way up.
Speaker 4:So the one thing I do want to share is Candid is a great resource for just looking at data collection and also, I would say if you're looking at 990s, you can see who the top salaries are for an organization, right? So if you have a dream of working for X foundation down the line and you're trying to figure out what that pathway is to that and what that salary is, a lot of times you'll be able to see the top five earners for that foundation or for that organization, that foundation or for that organization. So that's something that I did when I first started out to just kind of get an understanding of am I being underpaid or is this kind of just where the growth process is? So I don't know if, roland, you have any other resources. I believe Peak also has a report out in regards to grants, management salaries and they kind of do a deeper dive into geographic location, how long a person has been at an organization, and also demographic information. So, yeah, I would say PEAK is a great resource as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the two resources that Fauzi named are perfect. I think the only other two I can think of are Council on Nonprofits and Council on Foundations also do salary surveys, I think you know. So if I got that wrong, the audience will correct me on that, but I'm pretty sure that they do. And I would also say you know that you get what you negotiate. And knowing your worth is equally as important. And knowing what the salary bands are, because they range across geographies. You know what you get paid in New York, dc and the Bay is very different than what you get in even Dallas, houston and Chicago, you know.
Speaker 3:So, to Fauzi's point, it does help to know the landscape and to see the differences across geographies because for some reason there are a number of companies and foundations that will pay you differently based on where you live, as if you know that's evidence based practice or whatever it's called. But I don't necessarily prescribe to that if I were in the decision making seat of that. But regardless, there are companies that do that. You know. Know how to negotiate, you know. Know what you bring to the table. Ready to your earlier point, you know. You know what you bring to the table and you know your worth. That is something that I think all three of us, in addition to those listening. It's important to remember that.
Speaker 1:Agree, and outside of my first job ever, I have never since taken a job without negotiating something Absolutely, whether that was title or salary or both. So definitely echo that you get to negotiate. By the time you get to negotiating, they already want you, so you might as well make it make sense for everyone involved when I came over to philanthropy, that was not how I approached it.
Speaker 4:I was very green to what I could ask for or kind of what I should ask for, and I think that I've learned that. And again, you don't have everything figured out when you first get started in any space. So, again what I said before give yourself grace, but learn from your mistakes. And that's why mentorship and coaches and leaders that may pour back into you are so important, right? Because they're going to teach you that before you get started and you can have that conversation before you get to that point when you're signing on the dotted line.
Speaker 1:So that's right. Is there anything else we haven't discussed that the world should know about you two, I mean?
Speaker 4:we're both musicians or have a passion for music. I think that's a good one.
Speaker 4:So Roland did say he's an introvert. I would say I also am an introvert, but I think it's a skill set to learn how to get into a room and say, all right, even though this is uncomfortable, I know I have to do this and I may have to perform a solo. And I kind of think back to my experiences growing up when I was playing saxophone and, like, for me personally, I was terrified at times. But then you get up there and you get to play a solo and it's just you and the kind of world goes dark and you're just there jamming Right. So music, I love music. We were just recently in New Orleans so I got to sneak away and Roland gave me some great recommendations. So that's, that's a passion of mine. Instrumental choice is the saxophone, preferably the alto. I don't know if I have the lungs for the tenor baritone yet, but yeah, that's. That's one thing that we both share in common.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'm a pianist and keyboardist. So you know, I think for me music the leadership lesson that I learned most and I played for 30 years of my life and my grandmother was a gospel organist, so she, you know, was the impetus for all of that. But my father was the one that thought I should also be trained classically. So kudos to him too. But I think the top leadership lesson that I've learned from music is how to listen to many different voices at the same time and not get overwhelmed by it. And, specifically having played in bands, that brings on many different types of personalities, many different things happening at one time to get everything to make sense.
Speaker 3:You know what the drummer is doing is very different from the bass player, from the keyboardist to, you know, the saxophonist. You know if you have a John Legend-style band, you're going to have all of that and more and still be the piano player of your own if you're John Legend. So I say that to say that it is not as overwhelming to sit in a room and listen to either the clanging cymbals you know, taking up air time in a meeting or those that are making more sense like a bass guitarist you know. So you know, and it's a valuable skill. You know, and I play and practice every day. You know that's my safe space and my escape again when I'm not walking on the river. Music is truly not just listening to it but also playing it. I can't imagine life without that Awesome.
Speaker 1:Thank you both for sharing that. Thank you all for joining us today. I really appreciate all of the career cheat codes you got to share with the audience, some more intel about your path and how you got into the roles that you're in now, and look forward to continuing to see your growth in the field.
Speaker 4:Thank you too, Roddy. Thank you, Roddy. Thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 2:I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did and believe on the mission we're on, please like, rate and subscribe to this podcast on whatever platform you're using, and share this podcast with your friends and your networks. Make sure you follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn at Career Cheat Code and tell us people or careers you would like to see highlighted. See you next week with some more cheat codes. Peace.
