Mushrooms & China

We owe homage to the East, especially China, for our knowledge in the mushroom space. Today on the show we are meeting with a fellow cultivator from Forij Mushrooms, Jennifer Dou. Jennifer has extensive experience with cell culture and is first generation Chinese American, where fungi played a potent role in daily life. Now a lead mycologist for a company called Forij Mushrooms, Jennifer's background offers much needed perspective in the field.

Topics Covered:

• Market economy of functional mushrooms. What does it look like in China and where does the United States stand in comparison?
• Sinophobia in the Western world, especially in the world of mycology and functional supplements
• Mushroom culture and mushroom cultivation in China
• Parallels in the lab between cell culture and mycology 

Show Notes:

• Forij Mushrooms: https://forij.life/
• Podcast on Alex’s Trip to China: https://www.mushroomrevival.com/blogs/podcast/international-functional-mushroom-conference-china-recap-episode-34

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Transcript

Alex: 0:00

You're listening to the mushroom revival podcast. Hey friends today on the show we are meeting with a fellow cultivator from forage mushrooms Jennifer doe. Jennifer has extensive experience with cell culture and comes from a Chinese culture where fungi play a potent role in daily life for 1000s of years. These two things are serving her as a lead mycologist for a company called forage mushrooms in Canada. So fasten your seat belts as we're going to take a ride on the hyphal highway. First, the review of the week. Now this one comes in from Casey machine. And the subject is myco 101. And the review is I've been listening for a few years, I had an opportunity to to discuss the myco 101 podcast with my child in the car the other day, she had an essay on mycorrhizal fungi on our AC T. Just a few days after our conversation, she was so happy thank thanks for all the great podcasts. That is super cool that she had an essay on mycorrhizal fungi on our AC T. That's super fun. And I'm so glad that you're enjoying the podcast, I hope everyone is having a similar experience, please reach out to us. We're we are here for you guys, this show is for you. And so if you want to hear anything different, if you want to take away anything, if you want us to bring on a certain guest or a topic, this is for you, we want to make it the best experience for you guys as possible. But if you are listening, you want to support us, we don't take any third party ads, we don't have a, you know, a Patreon or anything like that. What we do have is a website mushroom revival.com We have a whole line of really, really potent high quality functional mushroom products from capsules, to powders to tinctures, some gummies coming soon. And some other products coming out in 2022 and beyond. If you're listening, you can use the code pod treat at checkout. And we change the discount all the time. So in order to figure out what you're going to get, you got to plug it in. And you know see what you get that week. We change it all the time, so you might get lucky. And now the moment you have all been waiting for we bring you Jennifer doe and her experience in the machine world.

Lera : 2:50

Jennifer, thank you so much for reaching out and being open to being on our show and talking a little bit about yourself and your perspectives. And we're just super excited to have these conversations with you and talk about the work you're doing in the mushroom business with forage mushrooms and all the other exciting things that you're up to in Vancouver.

Jennifer: 3:10

Thanks for having me. I'm super excited.

Lera : 3:14

So, let's start off with a bit of an introduction. Who are you in what what are you up to with forage mushrooms and how can our listeners follow along with you?

Jennifer: 3:25

So my name is Jennifer and I'm the Lead mycologist and production manager of foraged mushrooms so we are a spawn substrate and grow kits company based in British Columbia, Canada. Our Operation much like mushroom revival is rooted in spreading fungi education, fungi, cultivation, accessibility, and just an appreciation for for fungi for Canadians and North Americans as a whole.

Alex: 3:50

And you're someone of Chinese descent working in the North American mushroom scene. How did you get into mushrooms initially? And do you think that your heritage shaped that interest? Did you have family or do you have family that kind of pushed you into mushrooms?

Jennifer: 4:09

I wish I could say it was from an early age but it really was recent for me and it feels like my life has come full circle. So prior to my job now I was actually working as a laboratory manager and cloning technician at the University of Queensland in Australia and over there I was working on harvesting bone marrow macrophages doing protein assays, a lot of cell culture work and CRISPR plasma design. I didn't love academia and very serendipitously I had a friend who started a mushroom business in Vancouver and asked me to help run the science side. Didn't have much to lose at the time. And he just said, you know, it's really shocking to see how similar fungible cells and macrophages are. I was a little skeptical at the time, but he was absolutely right and I've kind of dive right in over the last Three or four years and I've just absolutely fallen in love with mycology kind of learned it through a combination of citizen science and working with cell culture and bone marrow macrophages. But like nowadays, I just think about how, you know my heritage is shaped my interest, which, you know, I didn't really think about going into it. But as a first generation Chinese American, I grew up in a immigrant household and much like a lot of people of Asian descent using adaptogens is pretty much a way of life for us and my mom, like every single time I had any kind of ailment, headache, cold feet, fatigue, constipation, there was like a traditional Chinese plant based supplement for it. I remember every morning taking a lot of like, really bitter, astringent drinks, and I was told I couldn't leave the house until I finished all of it. And I hated it at the time, but like, I'm, I'm really grateful for it now. And looking back, I'm like, Hey, Mom, what did I take? And she was like, We are reishi, you took reishi every morning, I make I made you take reishi. So it's like, you know, I feel like it's all come full circle. In college, I was, you know, I studied microbiology and I thought I was going to be a doctor. And I really thought that her like traditional Chinese beliefs were like voodoo witch craft magic. Like he she had like all these like, charts and herbal remedy charts. And I was just always like, No, I believe in hard science. I believe in pharmaceutical patented drugs backed by clinical trials, and, and now she's kind of just making fun of me, she's like, look at you working in the mushroom space. Like, are you talking about reishi Mushrooms? And like I told you, yeah, exactly. And, like, now, I think that you can, you can be a proponent of both like, it's not like a mutually exclusive thing. You can believe in herbs and adaptogens. But you can also very much want to go to the doctor and take it and anti inflammatory prescribed by, you know, pharmaceutical industry.

Lera : 6:55

That's amazing. And I, before we were talking, I had no idea that you studied cell culture. That's super cool. I do a bit of cell culture at my other job. And before we dive into the conversation around the mushroom culture in China and North America, I'm just so curious, what about macrophages is so similar to fungal cells,

Jennifer: 7:16

I guess it's just because I've never I like I've very much, you know, like, I went into the whole mushroom space, believing that mushroom cultivation is very much like plant cultivation. And that's all having to do with the fact that when I, you know, went to high school, like, back in 2008, I don't even think we learned that fungi was like a different kingdom at all. So, like, you know, we would harvest and plates, we would, everything was just these cultures were kept track of very meticulously and minus 80. And then we were really, really meticulous and cell count and expansion of cell culture from minus 80. And a single kind of weld to, you know, a plate and then a bigger plate and then kind of growing, you know, kind of like growing up Ecoli as well in these like, big kind of fermenter flasks. It's all it's all very similar to me. I don't know if you can relate lira, but

Lera : 8:17

yeah, definitely. I mean, you we use a lot of scientific supplies to cultivate mushrooms. And yeah, I, I get that it was really helpful for me because I came from farming into biology. So I kind of had the inverse experience where I'm okay, now I'm trying to culture cells and ecoli and all these things. And my experience with fungi was super instrumental there. But yeah, I really love that you have this perspective of this clinical approach, respecting pharmaceuticals and believing hard science, and then the traditional Chinese way of approaching health and wellness, from your household and like now, I feel like you can appreciate the fulcrum and you have like a very level headed idea with with the whole scene and like what a valuable place to be and what a an asset that you can be for forage mushrooms and just the community in general. We don't have many people who have seen both sides of this and that to that extremity.

Jennifer: 9:21

Thanks. Yeah, I appreciate that.

Lera : 9:23

So mushrooms are super trendy now. And we're super happy about it. I mean, two years ago, when we started this podcast, we did not think it would take off to the degree that it has. But to me it almost seems like there's like this bougie role in the US it's it's cool. It's like the Gen Z's are doing it and I'm all for it. I'm excited about it. But I'm curious if you can talk about what's like the the sentiment of mushrooms in China. I know that it's there's a deep and rich history but yeah, what's the attitude towards consuming mushrooms and mushroom art and all Have that in in China?

Jennifer: 10:02

Well, yeah, no, you're absolutely right. The shrimp boom is very much a thing right now, and I'm all about it. But it's like back in China, it's, it's, it's a part of the culture for the last 5000 years. And I obviously don't want to generalize about Western society, it's made up of a myriad of different countries and cultures. But I do think that with the possible exception of indigenous culture in North America, Canadian and American culture can be classified as probably one that is generally myco phobic. So people in Canada and the US typically love or hate the taste of mushrooms, but most people have only really, you know, consumed storebought button mushrooms, and there's a lot of convincing that needs to be done. That being said, you know, not discounting the amazing work that fantastic fungi and novelists like Marlon Sheldrake have contributed to, to fungal education. But yeah, you know, Chinese culture and mushrooms, it's, it's, you know, it's been a part of this thing for the last 5000 years, and China produces about 85% of the world's cultivated mushrooms, there's not much convincing or education that needs to happen, there is more like pushing through and discovering what else can can be made with reishi, and quadriceps. And from, like, from a Western lens. Like all of this, you know, medicinal mushroom and Chinese culture can be kind of summed through traditional Chinese medicine and very simply defined, it's just, it's just a way of looking at preventative care. So preventative care means that rather than treating the disease as it comes, you're making lifestyle changes, you're taking adaptions and plant based or fungal based compounds every single day. And what you're trying to do without is just boost your overall health and reduce the chances of disease. So for a lot of people of East Asian descent, it means implementing medicinal mushrooms into your diet in terms of soups, and broths, and putting dried reishi and cordyceps flowers and your porridge and your teas in the morning. It's all it's all pretty. There's no convincing and it's it's a pretty much a daily kind of practice.

Alex: 12:07

And the reason, you know why we're having this conversation in the first place, why we brought you on and why you reached out to us is because, you know, we wanted to have the conversation. And many conversations about the topic of kind of North American and Chinese relations, when it comes to mushrooms and the industry. There seems to be a lot of xenophobia and racism when it comes to any. Well, I mean, it goes a little beyond China, I feel like it's it's Asian culture, period. But Chinese China specifically, um, it seems to be like, there is a lot of xenophobia and racism when it comes to, you know, mushrooms from China, or any anything really from China period. And it's unfair. And it's really frustrating when, as you wrote to us, right? When a lot of this is rooted in China, right, or Japan, I mean, a lot of a lot of these things are, are originated in China, right? Alive, a lot of this species that we're talking about a lot of the cultivation practices, you know, a lot of the literature and the history and the science of functional benefits of mushrooms for supporting our health. I mean, right? They're 1000s of years ahead of us here in North America. And it seems like people are still having this resentment. And there's just a lot of uneducated, harmful, toxic ways of thinking that not everybody, but you know, a big group of people here in North America have. And so that's kind of the framework of this episode. It's just having the conversation and hopefully, changing a few minds while we're at it. So all that being said, what do you think we're in are the biggest influences from China on North American mushroom culture as a whole?

Jennifer: 14:19

I think you know, undoubtedly, it's definitely what we refer to as the functional mushrooms. So plant or fungal based supplements that we take on a regular basis for health and not the taste. I would say that that's the biggest influence for sure. For instance, the the caterpillar record isaps mushroom, scientifically known as OFHEO quarter SAP senescence, senescence means from China so these mushrooms are native to the high mountains of the Union and the Tibetan plateaus. So you know, these these mushrooms, both quarters sabs and reishi and Lion's Mane for that matter as well as what we call functional mushrooms have been taken in used in traditional Chinese medicine for 1000s and 1000s of years and I know recently, you know with mushroom boom, there's a lot of functional mushroom supplement companies, mushroom revival being one of them. And of course we have to pay homage to, to where we we get the inspiration from where we take the supplements.

Alex: 15:26

But 1,000% Yeah, and from a cultivation side as a cultivator, yourself and someone who's, you know, making spawn make growing mushroom kits and things like that. Do you look at any methods in China for inspiration, as you know, suppliers of 85% of the world's mushrooms and how the hell they do it on such a large scale?

Jennifer: 15:53

Absolutely. But I think that, you know, the model for for cultivating mushrooms in China is very much built on the economy of scale, like they have, they have the, I guess, the upper hand of having a society where myco phobia is not a thing, and the vast majority of people are consuming mushrooms on a regular basis. So that's why they can afford to make 85% of the world's mushrooms because 50% of it goes to China and and goes and is eaten in the country itself. So I think to look at a lot of these models for cultivation and manufacturing of mushrooms, we have to see like, firstly, is there a market for us to grow 1000s and 1000s of acres of reishi? And what year and tremella and oyster mushrooms, I think not quite yet doesn't mean that we can't take inspiration from it. But I think the first kind of spec step in our company as a whole is to increase that that percentage of the general population interested in in eating mushrooms. And once we have that demand that absolutely we can go there and we can be a big player. But without that economy of scale, it's going to be really hard for us to match up price points.

Lera : 17:08

Yeah, and I've never seen a Chinese farm in person to add scale. But I know Alex, you have and it seems like from the way the western world is doing it in the United States, we kind of have an automation but it's all like the polypropylene bags and stuff. But then China has adopted a whole new level of automation, where I've even seen photos of a greenhouse of reishi. So instead of growing in individual bags, it's it's it's a whole room. It's a whole space dedicated to this. And that's super cool to me. And I've always wondered like, Does the United States have that kind of demand to even warrant graduating from these sort of singular inoculations to more of a field, like a monoculture sort of approach

Alex: 17:55

or even on a fully automated system where you know, these machines like, you barely even need humans at that point. Only for certain processes, but I mean, from Moto culture, yeah, from I mean, that's was originated in Japan. But there's other kind of automated systems that I saw in China, that very limited human interaction. I mean, you still need it to harvest some of the mushrooms but they're even working on some machines to harvest mushrooms, which is pretty crazy.

Jennifer: 18:29

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, with what forage mushrooms is doing right now, I've seen that and I've looked at scientific papers about the modeling systems of that and if we can get to a point where the demand is there, and we've got like, you know, 200 medicinal mushroom companies lining up saying, Hey, we're gonna buy all your, our reishi from you then. Absolutely, I think automation is something that we can get to but it is like a billion dollar investment.

Alex: 18:57

It is. Yeah, it is. It's such a steep learning curve. Another thing that I've seen is that you know, these automated machines and a lot of these machines like are not available in North America and they have to be shipped from China Yeah, or yes, you know, sometimes even Germany like Alibaba Yeah, exactly. And and it's the shipping costs and it just all these things are insane. But you know, I saw companies that will not only find land for you, but buy the land, design the building, build the building, hire employees make a business plan may buy all the equipment needed, go install, like Plumbing and security system and literally from step one to zero to A to Z, they'll they'll make it happen, and they're like will literally make you a ginormous$10 million mushroom farm. Like just snap your fingers and we'll make it happen. That is not have anything close to that in North America. So we just I mean, it's just a major learning curve. And we are, you know, it right now, obviously, for functional mushrooms most, most companies if they want to produce in the US at any scale, they'll use mycelium on grain, right, and they'll just forego growing actual mushrooms, and they'll grow the roots of the mushrooms on a grain. And, and it's hard because it's like, it's just a cheaper way to do it at at our, at our infancy in North America. But producers trying to we're trying to switch all of our grows to United States, and we can get a couple mushrooms, right. And we are sourcing a couple of mushrooms in the United States. And that's about it. And that's hard. And it's the largest growers in the US. And we're, we've been asking for years, we've been we've been having partnerships with many farms in the US, and we're like, Hey, this is just to supply one of our products at the minimum amount. Like, can you supply it, and they're like, give us yours. Right? And just for one of our products, just the minimum amount,

Lera : 21:32

we're not even that big of a company, we're

Alex: 21:34

tiny. Yeah, we're mushroom rivals, a very small business, like cheese, and we're just, that's just one one small business, if it's going to take the largest mushroom farm years to produce, like, we're just not at the scale yet. And so I think it's, it's, it's a perfect conversation to have with you, right of, okay, we have, we have to let go of the xenophobia and the racism and, and like, you know, learn and pay homage and respect, and, you know, like, China in a lot of ways, their mushroom culture is way ahead of us in North America. And we have to, like, we have to learn a lot and, you know, like, pay respects to where it's due, if we're ever going to advance at all.

Jennifer: 22:26

Absolutely, yeah. agreed with that. And it's, there's, there's definitely a way to, you know, respect that, like, be appreciative of the price point that China is able to offer, as the economy of scale, but, you know, preach your business as well, it doesn't have to be a negative thing. You don't have to say, you know, these mushrooms are dirty, or they have heavy metals, you should have ours instead, you know, I think that saying to customers, be local, and and support local is that's good enough.

Alex: 23:01

Right. Right. What is your um, I'm curious to dive into that deeper? Because one, what is what is your thoughts on? There's there's sentiments by people saying all mushrooms in from China are toxic or dirty. So what are your thoughts on that? And then to have kind of what is, is there a balance that we'll get to of, you know, supporting local, while also, you know, paying respects to a global economy? And if that makes sense.

Jennifer: 23:41

Yeah. I mean, it's a hard question, I guess, because, I guess just diving into the history of sign of phobia and, and racism is, like, I'll just start by saying that it's been a rough two years with COVID. It's been a global pandemic, there's been a virus that's affected everybody, lot, everybody's lives. And unfortunately, with all the added frustration, it's been especially hard for Asian American communities, people like to have a scapegoat. And the rates of hate crimes towards Asian Americans have absolutely skyrocketed. But it's not just COVID related, like it's the same in the mushroom space, as you said, and it's the same in in other and other sorts of industries to the underlying message is always the same, that there's another culture of people who speak another language, and they look different. And they might have something that is, you know, either causing, causing people frustration, and it's very easy to say, these people look different, and what they're producing is dirty and we shouldn't be trusting them. And it's absolutely hurtful. That is it exists not only with COVID, but also in food in the mushroom space. I have calls with customers sometimes asking about our products and they say is there anything Are you sourcing interior products from China? I can't trust that it's dirty. It contains heavy metals. And these are hard questions to answer. I don't mean to obviously paint a sensational picture. But I think Alex, you summed up the situation perfectly in the podcast that you did a few years back, recapping your trip to China, it's here in the West, it's really easy to get caught in a political kind of storm where you see one message being thrown around, and you believe it without even questioning any of it. But, and it's also really easy to believe that West is best. But you know, there are societies in the world that have been cultivating mushrooms for 1000s and 1000s of years, China being one of them. And it's really important to respect that. As for where these, you know, the origins of these kinds of claims have come from, if you even do your research, and you look up, you know, heavy metals in China, you'll find that, yes, there are wild, like mushrooms that have higher profiles of heavy metals, wildly forage mushrooms in all parts of the world, depending on the soil profile, depending on environmental factors. And it's never really the ones that you cultivate yourself, because growers have no reason to implement heavy metals into their substrate. So it's just about asking the right questions. It's about reducing stigma. And yeah, I don't know if that answered your question. But yeah, it's it's, it's a really important debate that we're having or or discussion that we're having right now. And it's just going to take every everybody to kind of see the larger picture and see that it's okay, that, you know, at the moment, we have a lot to learn from Chinese cultivation from the mushroom cultivation from another country. And, and that's okay. So,

Lera : 26:53

we have a little bit of experiences with this too, just with customer service, and people inquiring about where mushrooms come from, but I'm curious to hear your perspective. And like what you've kind of been able to conclude about consumers in the West, like, what exactly do they think mushroom cultivation in China looks like? And is there anything you want to debunk? Like, clearly, the heavy metal issues, and I don't know, if they're picturing mushroom farms next to another factory, and there's just run off, or if they're picturing people spraying a bunch of chemicals on them, like, yeah, if there's any kind of like narrative that, that you think of that we should talk about, and help our listeners kind of, like, get a more accurate picture in their head.

Jennifer: 27:40

I think that, again, like the picture you've painted, where people are thinking that there's a lot of, you know, spraying pesticides and, and heavy metal runoff. All of that is, like for any person who's growing mushrooms in this space right now, even trying to, you know, do as grains bond to substrate transfer at home, they know that, if there's even like a speck of contamination in their grain spawn, there's no way that they're going to get a good yield. And they're going to get, you know, good crops. So, like, a lot of it comes down to logic and critical thinking, there's just, there's no way to grow 1000s and 1000s of acres of mushrooms and, and deal with contamination, and have your business be profitable, like it has to be streamlined if you're going that large scale. So I just think that the claim itself is, is rooted in a little bit of like, faulty logic, I guess.

Lera : 28:37

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Like there aren't a lot of corners, you can cut with mushroom cultivation, because the organism just won't put up with it. You have to, like, make conditions so favorable for those things. And I saw this video from Alex when he went, I don't know what farm you're at, oh, spray or something. And they had this automatic booty machine. So yeah, you even walked into the space to even just to tour it not even go into the actual cleanroom area, there was this machine that put a plastic wrap over your shoot. So you don't trail in a bunch of sports, it's like that level of care. That, you know, it's it instills a lot of trust for me.

Alex: 29:23

And all this being said, I do want to say that there are some really dirty farms in China, like, hands down really bad. And also in the US. And in North America in general. There are also some shit. Like I'm, like, really bad and the practices are just terrible. So I don't want to glorify any one place and say, like, make these black blanketed statements like, oh, well, China has 5000 years of history and therefore it's all good. or, or any blanket statement? Because there are like, obviously, there are some. There's some shit mushrooms coming from China. And on the flip side, there are some spectacular, like, premium way better than any, like, you know what I mean? And then the flip side in the US, there's some shit, and then there's some really good and then Canada, I'm sure that there's the same. It's really like, what I said in the episode that you that you mentioned, and when I tell people is like, that's why we have the QR code to show lab results. It's like see it for yourself. This is how this the these are the heavy metals, and these are the levels of compounds and like, you know, look at the lab results don't don't look at the place of origin. And like, I Yeah, it is, it is very complicated. Because obviously, there's varying levels of everything, right. And it I always give the funny analogy of like, you know, it's like shitting on Italian wine or shitting on, like chocolate from Colombia or something. And like, it's just like, yeah, they know what they're doing, you know, and but some, I'm sure there's,

Lera : 31:20

there's got to be an Italian cook out there who makes worse pasta than me? Like, that's just

Alex: 31:25

sure there's some shit vineyards in Italy, right. I'm sure they're, you know, tons of heavy metal. And same thing with the mushrooms like I, I don't want people to come across. Yeah, I'm just very hesitant for any blanketed statement. Absolutely. Yeah. But it is a discussion. I think it's like, I what, I don't want people to step away. I don't want people to come quick to any decision. And, you know, like you said, it's, we're in a stressful time, it's easier for people to just pick aside, come to a quick decision, and not critically think. But if we're ever going to progress as a, as a human species, we have to have some level of critical thinking and just have conversations like these. So you know, thank you for coming on and having this conversation with us. I really appreciate it.

Jennifer: 32:23

Yeah, no, it's It's my pleasure. And it's not a like you said, it's not a dichotomy. There are shit mushroom farms everywhere. So to Yeah, to make a blanketed statement. It's not that there's the chinese mushrooms have the most pristine of all the world's mushrooms in like blanketed bar? None. It's it's more that, you know, there should not also be a blanketed statement saying that, you know, you're mistrustful of any mushroom that comes out of Chinese farm either. It's yeah, it's great. One of those things,

Lera : 32:56

right. Yeah. And we've learned like when people ask if our supply comes from China, that's, that's not really what they're asking, what they're asking is, are these mushrooms going to be good for me? Are they going to support my health and wellness? And did they come from a place that is trustworthy? Nothing to do with its origins, but it's hard for consumers with mushrooms specifically to shake that. And it's funny to me, because there's so many other products that we rely on China for and that we could not supply, without, without that economy and that level of production. So

Alex: 33:38

I do want to ask, and this is, I do have another topic that I'd love to talk about. But before we get there. How and we talked to another US based mushroom farm and he, you know, is complicated for him because he was like, yeah, a lot of our techniques and you know, come from Japan or China and then at the same time, it's hard to compete as like a local us farmer. With the prices and it is It's difficult. It's frustrating as someone trying to make it as a small business owner, when the prices can be extreme fraction of what you can dream to produce. So it's this like, double edged sword. And I'm sure for you it's even more complicated, right? It's like, you don't want people to shit on China. But then obviously, you want people to buy from you guys. So it's like, you want people to respects the mushroom, the Chinese mushroom culture but then you also want people to not like kind of not buy mushrooms from China and buy from you guys. So like, how do you deal with that? I'm sure it's it's super complicated. I'm just kind of want to hear your thought process.

Jennifer: 35:07

Oh, I have an identity crisis every day? No. It's mostly just like, like you said it, you can't make a blanket statement saying, to buy from one company, meaning that you have to denounce another and to buy from one country, meaning you have to denounce another. So it's definitely that kind of it doesn't need to be an extreme. But I think as well, like, in terms of the price points, yeah, there's, there's not enough demand for gourmet mushrooms for us to be cultivating at such a large scale for us to decrease our price points to that of Chinese price points. At the same time, the way that they ship the mushrooms overseas from China, you know, it goes in these big shipping containers, and it sits that it sits there for several days. So you know that what you're getting is not as fresh as buying local. So I think that the aspect of, you know, buying something that is supporting your local community, and buying something that's fresh, it makes a world of a difference. And it doesn't have to come down to a price point. Like when people are always telling us, why are your grow kits so expensive, you know, I can get a grow kit for $15. Why are these more expensive, but I always say, like, we are a local company, we believe in paying our workers fair wages. So that, you know, they can put food on the table, and we're dedicated to quality. And that's it and that's okay, if you don't want to pay for it. That's all right. But I'm not going to demonize the other company. I'm just going to say this is this is our business model.

Lera : 36:44

Yeah, and you guys are offering like all the standard grow kits, you know, you've got pure piney and many oysters in Lion's Mane. And I'm curious if you know of any other mushrooms in China that the western world is like sort of interested in like tremella, for example. And I know that's a whole anomaly in terms of cultivation, but just with the innovation, do you have any dis foraged mushrooms have any plans to kind of branch out and introduce any more exotic mushrooms?

Jennifer: 37:16

Oh, absolutely. My plan for 2022 is to make what you're saying.

Lera : 37:23

So awesome.

Jennifer: 37:24

Oh my god. Yeah. So I would end like what here is dot Heart to Heart or heart to cultivate at all like it is a very aggressive species of of mycelium and fungi. So yeah, I want to introduce woodier and tremella. Grow kids. I will Yeah, yeah, I want to make that a thing. And like, obviously, it's hard because unless you really know Chinese cuisine, you're not going to just make like a wittier pasta, like, that's not It's not normal. But you know, who's to say that people can't try it. There's something of course, I have to say in Chinese cuisine where texture is a thing like it's it's, it's it's a very established part of this food culture to eat something for the pure enjoyment of like, letting that texture sit in your mouth and woodier I would say is one of them. Like, it's not for everyone. And I know I'm not really selling it hard. But I it's truly one of my favorite mushrooms in the world. But it is it's definitely a textural like landscape and like it would be great for people to try it. I recommend everybody to try it. tremella the exact same thing and yeah, one of my other mushrooms actually my ultimate favorites is a bamboo fungus. Which is called Jewson in in Mandarin. And for people who don't know what that is, the scientific name is fellas and do Cetus you've probably actually seen videos of it on fantastic fungi, so it shoots out. And then the net and like, there's a neck like this net like, kind of structure that shoots back down. I think it's also called like a stink corn like along next in corn. But the texture is just so beautiful. Like it is like nothing you've ever had. I can't even like describe it or compare it to anything else, but it's definitely something that people should absolutely try.

Alex: 39:14

I've never tried that. That sounds awesome. That's one of my favorite looking mushrooms just visually, the net is to die for such a cool looking mushroom. And M woodier is it might be my favorite mushroom to eat. Just was like some vinegar just straight up like that's it. Oh my god, it's so good. Just is so freakin good.

Lera : 39:41

I love that. Yeah, I've had many woodier dishes from Chinese restaurants and when they put it in English, they just call it black fungus and um, is that how it translates in Mandarin?

Jennifer: 39:53

Actually, what you're in black fungus are two separate species, but they're all part of the same genus. So There, it's very easy to to confuse one for the other. i It's I have a hard time telling the two apart, they both taste more or less the same black fungus is actually just smaller, smaller in size but and, and it has more of a consistent texture, but they're both a part of the genus. I might be butchering the name, but it's our killer area. And what are your is just a cool area or ru cologix Day and black fungus is. It's it's poly Trica I believe. So it's really easy to mistake but what year, the name in Mandarin is pronounced mooer. And mu means wood and are means ear. So it's literally that it's the direct translation right there.

Lera : 40:49

That's super cool.

Jennifer: 40:51

There's other really, really cool translations as well that I absolutely love. Quarter steps is one of my favorites. So it's pronounced don't Cheung, SHA tau in Mandarin. And it directly translates to winter bug summer flower. So don't Choeng is winter bug and shouto is summer flower. And I find it super poetic because you just imagine this bug frosting over in the winter and then slowly morphing into the quarter steps flower.

Alex: 41:25

It's amazing. Do you love it? Have you had quarters? Cepsa KDA?

Jennifer: 41:31

No, oh, I haven't. That is definitely on my list. It's definitely not easy to find here in North America. So I know to go

Alex: 41:40

right. I was kicking myself, I was like, so jet lagged. I wasn't thinking straight. And I went to they have a cordyceps museum right outside of Shanghai. And they were selling just like big bins of these colonized cicada with the course of CKD. And it was like a big fan of it. And I was like, I'm not gonna fit that in my suitcase. That is ridiculous. And I didn't even think of just like taking buying the whole thing and then taking one out. It would be so easy to culture and just, you know, I actually have I know someone who works there. And I have I know a couple people, I could probably get a culture of it. But I think that I mean, that was the first quarter steps ever written about in or, you know, in for its functional benefits in, in China. And I think that was around like 30 ad or something like that. And yeah, I mean it it looks crazy. It says cicada with some mushrooms popping out of it. I don't think that I think it'd be way easier to to get people to eat woodier and tremella for sure. That one might be hard for for North American people to accept. And the other one that is new its its course that's going on census. Yes. Just was just I think it round like 2008 was when it was first named. And then 2013 was when they kind of mass cultivated it, but now it's one of the most popular quarter steps in China. And it's yeah, I I've been we tried a little bit of it. But um, those ones I'm really excited for their crossover. You know, I think they're, they're awesome mushrooms.

Jennifer: 43:41

Yeah, it would be great to see us kind of move in the functional space from not just quarter steps militaris but also to make you know, quarter steps one again, so it's the thing that would be so cool is getting to a point where we you have all these different selections of quarter steps and taking them additionally.

Alex: 44:00

Totally, yeah, for sure. I'm I'm really excited. But yeah, it's that it's one thing to grow it on a kind of table stop scale, it's another to grow it on a small kind of local community scale, then it's another to do it in your region another to your country, then it's like worldwide. And those steps are big. And yeah, and that's the problem that we're just talking about in North America. mushroom cultivation is just getting to that next step of just growing more.

Lera : 44:39

And speaking of like futuristic applications, this is another thing that China has been really inspiring for because when you brought back some serious a KDA powder that we just add to drink and drink it like water, water and powder and you had a skincare mask too. There's like a quarter steps sheet mask and I know they put Reishi in their toothpaste, are there any other like innovative examples that you know of in China of people like putting mushrooms and random products? And that, like maybe the Western world can kind of get excited about and?

Jennifer: 45:15

Yeah, absolutely. So I think some I've seen a lot of really interesting uses for reishi. So, like, I know, you guys were mentioning in toothpaste, I've heard about it in detergents as well, because of the bleach that it has. I think that is super interesting. And in terms of like how these mushrooms are consumed as well, like you can. And so in China, you can buy like these bricks of quarter steps mix with black tea, and they're like, there's no way for me to describe it because like obviously, our understanding of tea is just like tea leaves are tea bags, but these are you can buy super concentrated bricks, and they can be quite expensive, but they have like It's like 95 USD worth of black tea and cordyceps mushrooms and what you do is just you just break off like a little chunk in the morning and you can soak it in hot water and you can drink that but you can reuse it over and over and over again and the whole brick can last you like months. So I think you know the tea break is really interesting. It's kind of like a little chocolate bar but for tea.

Alex: 46:24

Yeah, my so cool. My friend actually growing up. He his mom was like a tea sales woman in Guangzhou and I got to try so many teas and I got I brought back one of those bricks is so freaking good. Oh my god. I miss it. I'm Yeah, it's really really good. It's powerful, for sure.

Jennifer: 46:46

And it's super powerful. I can send you one. There's a shop here in Vancouver that does a really good job of selling those quadricep and reishi T bricks. They're called oh five T for anybody in the area who's curious.

Lera : 46:59

Oh, he would love to try some oh five to you.

Alex: 47:02

How is Avi? Like, I know the Pacific Northwest is crazy for mushrooms. But how was Vancouver? Specifically?

Jennifer: 47:12

I Vancouver. It was a really good foraging season. I'm not gonna lie. It was very wet and rainy, but saw so many chanterelles. And actually my favorite part of this foraging season this year was we were walking around and found this really funky looking mushroom and realize that it was a specific species of cortisol that I think Paul Stamets was talking about saying that. You're there's a video he had posted on Instagram saying this is the first time I've ever seen this species of cordyceps apps. It's super rare. Tata. Yes. Yeah, that's the one. I think that's the one that grows in over as like five heads over to your truffles.

Alex: 47:53

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we found it was seven heads. One. Like, we I tell him we stole his story all the time, because Lera has this special gift of naming a mushroom that she wants to find. And it'll be like, way out of season two, like it'll just like, not make any sense. And we'll just like five seconds later just stumble upon it. I don't know about our first day is like, she went in to find all these mushrooms. And every mushroom that she said within 510 seconds or something, we stumbled upon that mushroom. But then it was what I think it was like late December or something and and it was like very cold. We were bundled up we had all this stuff. I think this, you know, is almost like snowing at that point. And she was like, I want to find some quarter steps. I was like we are it is almost snowing right now. We're not going to find some corsets right now. But all right, whatever. We'll keep an eye out. And then as I said that I looked down, and there's cordyceps capitata. It we found like three different specimens. And one was the seven headed one, which supposedly is super rare. And it it's a cool mushroom. It grows on the deer truffle and yeah, really cool specimen.

Lera : 49:22

also have another I'm just so curious. Because if you speak the language, Mandarin or I don't know what dialect of Chinese you speak, are you able to access a bunch of literature that help you in the lab? Because I know Alex and I and I have had this experience a few times where like researching okay, what light wavelength gives more cortisol? And for your cortisol, there's something something really niche and then there's a paper on it. And the titles in English but you download it and everything's in Mandarin or Cantonese. It's like ah, darn. Like do you ever get to access literature that feeds your code? evasion, the traditional westerner who doesn't speak the language can't.

Jennifer: 50:04

There are God I feel you there are so many academic papers and even like patents out there originated from China, all published in Mandarin. And I have to say, unfortunately, like I can, I can understand Mandarin, I could speak it, but my reading comprehension skills are absolute shit. So I will send these articles to my mom. And I'll just be like, can you please just read this and tell me, You know what they're saying? I need to know, the the patent method here. And she's just like, Oh, God, not another one.

Alex: 50:41

Oh, man. Yeah, I, I went to a functional mushroom conference in Nantong, China, and one of the the lectures was on just like, patents and just kind of relating China versus other countries. And it was something it was, I can't exactly remember what it was. But there was like, 900 patents on reishi in China and like, three in North America. Yeah, I it is. I'm also curious as a researcher, even just beyond mycology as well, just as a scientist period, when you're looking for these, these papers. I'm just curious, because obviously, Google is pretty much banned in China. And so is ResearchGate a thing? Like, is there another platform where a lot of researchers post the research? Like what is the what's the lowdown on accessing literature from China? I mean, is a lot just not accessible if you're in North America.

Jennifer: 51:59

Yeah, so ResearchGate is definitely a thing. Unfortunately, sometimes you need a scientific license, or you need to pay a fee, which is why sai hub is a, like an amazing platform, because you can search through ResearchGate. But it's kind of like the server that you can go through and you can enter in, you know, a site like links to scientific articles through ResearchGate. And you have access to everything without having to pay a fee, which is amazing. And actually, if you search through Google patents, there's a bunch of different patents from from China in Mandarin. So that's also I don't know, maybe that's gotten through like the Great Firewall or something.

Lera : 52:43

That's a good tip.

Alex: 52:44

And for people interested in Sai hub, we actually have a whole episode interviewing the founder of Sai hub, and it was an awesome episode. I think anyone who's interested or reads any scientific articles, I think you're so right. It's such a great resource. Oh, I

Lera : 53:00

would not be the scientist I am today if it wasn't for sai hub. It's crazy the amount of literature I've been able to access for no money. Yeah. So I have like a one remaining question. And we've talked about sort of the earlier in the episode, what the future of mushroom cultivation for North America is, and I'm curious if you can talk about the future of mushroom culture and cultivation in China? Like do you feel like there is any more advancements to be made? Or do you feel like it's plateaued? Are people interested in myco materials and like the leathers, the type of technology that we're seeing kind of manifest in the West? I mean, what other innovations and futuristic things are you kind of seeing in China?

Jennifer: 53:47

I think the one that sparks my interest the most is the ability to cultivate, you know, different types of quarter steps and medicinal mushrooms that have yet to be documented as cultivatable. So even like, quarter substances, which is you know, it's it's not it's only growing on Capitol caterpillars, but I think at the moment, there might be a research team working on being able to cultivate that and that is super interesting to me. Just as like a like a science nerd. And like, I think you know, forge and my team in general that's that's what we're trying to specialize in as well is having specific recipes and substrate recipes to cater to different species and strains. But no, we haven't gotten to perfecting sinensis yet. And I'm really looking forward to receipt to looking up the research article when it publishes.

Alex: 54:52

Yeah, I at this course. Museum, the researcher, you trade time I might be butchering his name, but he is he grew 91 different species of cordyceps, which was just I can't even wrap my head around it. And he was so humble about it. I mean, he was just like, yeah, it's whatever. It's humble start. A so night, I mean, one of my favorite researchers of all freakin time, we had a blast together. And yeah, he was successful in doing over a course of senescence. And I know a few other companies are doing it kind of small commercial scale right now. Some using the larva in some not. And we have a researcher, friend who studies from the into the, what do you call it that? The, the insect side, so he studies, the butterflies, or the ghost moss. And he got into Ocasio Cortez Epstein essence from just studying insects and that side of things. And he has, we just jumped on the phone with him. And he had a really, really interesting side that I think will shine light on the cultivation. And we're going to bring him on the show. And we'll definitely connect you to because I want to see that happen. on a large scale. That's one mushroom I would love to see being Yeah, that would

Jennifer: 56:27

be absolutely amazing.

Alex: 56:31

What do you think, is the feature of I know, we talked about, obviously, the feature of mushroom cultivation in North America, it just kind of scaling it up and all the all the things that we need to improve, but what about mushroom culture in general?

Jennifer: 56:49

I think mushroom culture in general, obviously, like, I think, are at least for just first priority, his business is just educating people and you guys are doing exactly that through your podcast, but educating people about the Ethno mycology of fungi, fungi is food or medicine. And I think there's there's a lot that can be done as well, from a cultivation point of view in terms of like I was saying before, species specific recipes, I think most farms, there's you know, there's a lot of like a one recipe catch all but ultimately, as more players are moving into the space, and more people are trying to cultivate mushrooms and trying to make a living off of it, but don't have, you know, the privilege of an economy of scale where there's everyone in the society dying to buy mushrooms. Biological efficiency is one of the most important players of the game. And for those who don't know what biological efficiency means, it means the amount of mushrooms per pound produced per per pound of substrate so it's affected by a lot of things like strain humidity, Fe but it's also really affected by substrate. And right now we're doing a lot of tests of different substrate mechanisms freezing over substrate zapping substrate changing different concentrations of chemicals in the substrate so that we can have like more of a fine tuned cultivation process per species and strain

Lera : 58:22

vary and I have to shout out your website and your design I think you're making like such beautiful grow kids I just love Oh, it's so gorgeous. Yeah, it's just It's modern. Its artistic. I think it's really going to help people warm up to mushrooms because you've made it a beautiful thing.

Jennifer: 58:40

Thank you yes we we see it as a beautiful thing and I'm really excited for I think next year is the year that we're going to be launching like I would say a monthly rotating Nish grow kit so be on the lookout for a flourish like monthly what year and then tremella and then I would like to do like a quarter steps cake that would be really cool yeah and like a reishi but yeah, it'll be kind of like on rotate to

Alex: 59:07

Well, I you send me where I sign up for your intro. Mel. I'm so down. Yeah, and people who are in Vancouver and surrounding areas like Where can they find you? Do you do farmers markets like where are you online? Can people do you have a shop that people can come in or? What's What's the lowdown?

Jennifer: 59:32

I think the best way for people to find us is through our online shop which is fo ri J dot life. But we're also on Instagram we're on Tik Tok. And soon we're going to be available in different retailers all across Vancouver, lower mainland so you won't have to pay for shipping. We're also really excited because we are launching a little subdivision of forage that focuses on nutraceuticals and specifically mushrooms skincare I actually, yeah. So I have some, like I take reishi and cordyceps, and Lion's Mane supplements in the form of tinctures. And I've actually started adding it to my lotions in the morning. And like, as somebody who does get, you know, a few hormonal imbalances and cystic acne, I found that it completely clears up my complexion. So that's something that we're working on is not just mushrooms for food, but mushrooms for everything.

Lera : 1:00:28

I had a very similar experience with reishi, and helping my skin problems and just like, internal hormonal stuff. So

Alex: 1:00:37

I'll hit a little aside, we did a ton of r&d for a skincare line that we're never gonna launch. So I'm happy, like, this is what it's all about is we're all in this together. What Let's link after and we'll share all of our notes. And hopefully, some of it might be helpful. But yeah, we, I think that's awesome. I'm really like Origins is killing it with their mushrooms and their skincare. There's like so many people that they don't even like kind of promote it, but there's tons of mushrooms in. I saw one in my body wash and I didn't even see it until I was reading the ingredients and I was like wow, there's a mushroom in here. A lot of these skincare companies just kind of sneak it in, but they really deserve to be highlighted more. And I think you know, it's it's our biggest organ, we got to take care of it.

Jennifer: 1:01:37

Absolutely.

Lera : 1:01:41

Wow, Jennifer, thank you so much for all of your time. Is there anything else you want to share with our audience about forage mushrooms or any commentary? You have?

Jennifer: 1:01:52

Um, I guess to wrap it up, you know? It's, you know, we've had a lot of complicated discussions today around you know, the mushroom space and, and political kind of cultural relationships between the US and China and like, I think ultimately, we're all coming from the same place we're all trying to we all love mushrooms. We're all trying to appreciate mushrooms more and you know, just go out there and enjoy some wood here.

Lera : 1:02:30

Well do grows a lot in Austin. So that's one mushroom that we can look forward to in Austin.

Alex: 1:02:37

They get massive like the size of your head. They're insane. I've never seen him this big like I Yeah, either read actually insane how big they are.

Jennifer: 1:02:49

I think that's like the difference between water and black fungus because I was I went back to Maryland to visit my mom and she had some logs growing up in her backyard and I turned them over and I was like, oh my god this is like he's got Woody are growing, but they were significantly smaller. So I think those were definitely black fungus over over Whittier. But yeah, right. Yeah,

Alex: 1:03:11

amazing. More Love less hate. what it's all about. We're all in this together. We're all humans and we all love mushrooms. So let's let's get together, show some respect and love each other and the world will be a better place. So thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it everyone check out forage, and much love.

Jennifer: 1:03:33

Thanks guys.

Alex: 1:03:34

Big thanks again to Jennifer check out forage mushrooms if you're in Canada, much love and made the spores be with you.