TW// Intrepid Young Journalist Dives Deep into Sexual Abuse, Development, Culture & Human Rights In Vietnam | S2 E2

TRIGGER WARNING: The subject of this episode is the reporting of sexual abuse in Vietnam. While there is nothing graphic in this episode, if you feel that this would be a trigger or discomforting please feel free to skip this episode.

Sen is a journalist based in Saigon, Vietnam where she covers development, culture, and human rights. She writes for the English publication VnExpress International.

We talk about many of the articles that you can read below, and the reasons why sexual abuse of children happens in Vietnam and how it is dealt with - especially in relation to the way that older people are automatically believed and respected. We also discuss what is changing to help protect children and prevent this happening.

Despite the heavy nature of the subject, we still find some light-hearted moments and it was great to see that Sen hasn't been worn down by the nature of her reporting and stays upbeat.

This is Sen's hidden gem she recommends;
Cầu Thủ Thiêm, P. Bình An, Quận 2, Hồ Chí Minh

Recommended restaurant;
The Tib Restaurant

Vietnamese VN Express
English Vn Express

Below are some articles by Sen.

Tale of children who survived My Lai massacre falls on deaf ears

Don’t you mess with us any more: women, children learn self-defense

Dim light at the end of sex education tunnel

South Korean brokers advertise Vietnamese women as commodities on YouTube

LGBT rights: Vietnam recognises transgender people, but there’s a flaw in its law

Sen is also a contributing writer for the Hong Kong newspaper South China Morning Post and also reports on LGBT rights and related issues.

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Transcript

spk_1:   0:15
Welcome to Episode two Season two of seven million Bakes. Thanks for listening. My name's New Mukai. I'm your host, as always. And with me today is biscuit, who's asleep on the couch, as always. But my guest is Sen win. Who I'm very excited to talk to today is gonna be maybe a little bit more serious than previous episodes because the topic is quite serious. I do have to give a little bit of a warning that we will be talking about sexual abuse today in Vietnam. And so, if that is something that may be a trickle to you or something that would be discomforting, then please feel free to stop listening at this point. But if you are interested, please keep listening. We're gonna be talking about her life as a journalist on DH covering sexual abuse in Vietnam as well. And her experiences, of course, off living inside. Gone because she's actually from Hanoi. So thank you for joining me today. Send.

spk_0:   1:10
Wow, that was a very big introduction. Thank you for having me.

spk_1:   1:15
How you doing today?

spk_0:   1:17
I'm have been very welcome by your puppy biscuits. I'm very happy about

spk_1:   1:22
that. She is adorable. And so you're from Hanoi originally?

spk_0:   1:28
Yes. I was born and raised in Hanoi, and when I was 21 I left the country for the boat. Stein, who went to career to go to Korea for studying.

spk_1:   1:37
Okay. And what was that, like a university degree?

spk_0:   1:40
Yes, it wass. I was very fortunate. I got the Korean government scholarship and I went the original here was just for one year. And then I liked it. So much chance for my study. And one year, um, became 23 years. So what

spk_1:   1:56
did you like about Korea

spk_0:   1:58
now, Hossam? Confession. I'd like someone so many things. I gain almost. Tank, you'll first note here. So I guess the first thing is food. I didn't live in Seoul. I lived in much smaller town. I think is the fifth largest in Korea. So this is the biggest, um, same. Guangzhou and Guangzhou has only like 1.5 million when I was there. And it was a very warming, affectionate community, at least in my experience. And I learned so much from it because I never left Vietnam before. I mean, I think my parents took me to China when I was little, but I remember it vaguely. So it was a huge copter shop for me, even though everybody kind of looked like me. But they don't, Um I looked like them. I'm I'm always mistaken to be Korean. When I'm with any people, anything, one of them. So I guess one other thing I like about curious to stop, I look in the front. But when I do express myself, they see that I'm different and accept that I feel at least in Guangzhou, I'm not sure how it is. And so do you

spk_1:   3:14
mean culturally different culturally

spk_0:   3:17
different minds that different? They find it very bizarre to hear it in these woman picking an American accent to them. I repeatedly said, I've never been to America. I have never been outside of Asia. Please trust me up. I've never been anywhere near there, and there's no way you sound like you do. There's no event meets people. Is that what you do like? Well, this kid is like agreement, but I mean, yeah, I do is how I talk That one of the reason is because the Vietnamese woman is the largest migrant Bryce in Korea at the moment when I was there with the second largest Now is the largest. Read

spk_1:   4:00
your article. So

spk_0:   4:04
for them, this is an image of Amy's women that they have, like, less educated. They don't speak English, they come out on the town. They know that expressive. I'm like, Well, there are other people look just like us. I mean, they're all two people like that, like me. So for that, which is very bizarre. And I love seeing that interaction just to break down. You know, Is there a time you have a witness who went in your face?

spk_1:   4:31
How did that manifest like, What would they see to you?

spk_0:   4:35
Um, it was never Well, there was one time it was outright discrimination, but like that was very rare. I got asked more than once if I came to Korea from married, which is I am standard. If they think that any woman came to

spk_1:   4:50
that assumption, if you're you're just

spk_0:   4:53
true, and everything would just be like, I don't know if you would call it a positive discrimination when they just feel so odd and and taken back to hear me speak English, them in that way. So I feel this is a very complex privilege. Like I'm I'm a bit in his migrant women. But I'm not a wife in Korea. So I got double experiences of being there, which is very wording. I there, dear complication there. But I learned a lot from it. For me, that's important. At the end of day that I got toe got to learn something.

spk_1:   5:28
And so I read your article and I was absolutely disgusted. Toa do you wanna tell listener than a little bit more about the situation? You're just mentioning. The Vietnam has no the biggest exporter off brains to career. I mean, when I read your article, I didn't even really know that that was a thing. You know, you always hear about Russian braids, you know, in the West. Anyway, it's kind of you hear about, you know,

spk_0:   5:50
are we talking about the South Korean?

spk_1:   5:52
Yeah, Tell Taylor listeners a little bit, but that if they haven't read your article,

spk_0:   5:58
so it's let's just make it simple. So Korea has been suffering for him. A low bus, right? It's one of the lowest in the world, and essentially what is happening now is that those suburban areas and let's rule like rural areas. They're suffering from, like, a wise because woman went to get it agreed and more dedicated to move to the city or further received were better opportunities. We, as men, will farmers, mostly fishermen. They stay where they are to keep up with the family business so they can't dance. They can't find wife. So what happened was that this year, South Korean women, a South Korean government offer subsidies to 35 minutes to say that we're municipality municipalities. Uh, which is called What is it like marriage subsidies to East Lookout localities So they can use this money to go oversea to five of the spouse. The idea is so to the target is mainly men. Obviously, Thie idea is wonderful. Like you want everyone to have a family with love, but it doesn't guarantee protection and right the other way. The other half, right? And one of these, uh, desensitise, one of the things that his cover is brokering peace. Now they can use it. However, however they want is for brokers service. But then they don't actually anticipate how um ah, these bookers are doing to offer this service is, and I came across this report that was written by a watchdog organisation in Korea. Now I have to mention this. This is this is one of like the back State Storey when it comes to any journalists work. I killed myself writing this storey because, oh, the refining. The reports were in Korea. I have to read in Korean processes in my brain, blaming in Vinny's to my boss and invited in English. All right, I think I have a few grey hair up.

spk_1:   8:13
It's like

spk_0:   8:14
it wasn't saying like the storey came out just as I wanted to be. It could be better, but it's quite satisfying for me. But yeah, it was very difficult. And yeah, so they would offer these brokerage fees and essentially some of the some of these South Korean workers. They go online to go on YouTube and in create his own so neighbour, which is a Korean version of social network instead of Facebook. Andi, they promote this woman in ways of like if you just go through Amazon, you see what are the specifics? That's how it goes that that's how they look. They even number this woman and their information by the age where they're from their hobbies, eh? How willing there to marry a Korean men, but they're looking for in the men, but the other way around that his picture is not available. As in East Woman. Don't see the men who are looking at them, and by law in Korea, South Korean workers can't. Korean brokers cannot show more than one woman in a time. But at that space, in on an online platform, they seeing 1000 Woman's in a day. That's obviously something wrong there. So my Storey, which is going through a desk direction, there's only one thing that I'm Greta Greta about those storeys. I didn't get to talk to any of this woman because when you look at this YouTube videos that showing them one by one as a marriage item, they don't show their contact details. They only show their their their their names. I tried to track one of them down, but obviously they don't want to speak to me. I also contacted the numbers a listed in a YouTube channel. Information like about like because they say, if you like any of this girl's contact US years on number Bob. I did text them. I did say what I am and then respond. Um, just they're an understandable, I guess. But yet it's, um it's a very intense storey, but we don't know if any of them is being coerced into doing this. We don't know because I'm not on human trafficking expert. I can't see the signs, but yes, there has been pushed back when I share the article was one of the people was like one of the readers like Well, what is the difference with tinder that? And it is very similar, but before people online and they consent to it. What's wrong? What's wrong? All these women want the same thing. They want to get a husband. What's wrong with that? Andi, I talked Teo General. I expect he works at I see is a heavily NGO. And he said that it doesn't matter if this woman consent. It's how they portrayed it. Problematic Here. You don't see men being betrayed the same way you don't see even if they are still wrong. I don't I don't think it's fair for all these woman to become one of the items in the list. Um what I woke with fact, though, is that do they know this is how they portray and have they been pushed back? And if they do, what do these brokers say? Till we is a very complicated situation? I don't think I have to the black and white answer here. If it doesn't sit well, then there's something wrong a view which put you and your wife in that. Yeah. Oh, if your sister. And now let's part what you feel. So I would ask myself that question because we don't really know what's going on behind Europe's you to screen, and that's scary.

spk_1:   11:38
And then your article you mentioned so most of these women come from poor rural areas in Vietnam, right? Statistically, that's what's going on so far. It's a kind of, you know, it's a symptom off poverty, right that these women are putting themselves forward willingly or not, because they come from a poor background themselves and then being offered this route to Korea, which so how did the women perceive? From what you know, how do they perceive this process that I'm going to go to Korea? What did they think the life is going to be like vessels want their life will actually could actually be like

spk_0:   12:11
I would say yes statistically, A lot of these women who have gone to Syria and have shown interest that they want to go to career marriage. I usually not from big cities like ha No in Virginia City And because unfortunately, a lot of parents don't think that the ultimate goal of a bitten newswoman needs to get married to a good family and to a husband can move. I make you happy. Sure, that sounded the death knell. The only way to be happy. You listen the only way to have a fulfilling life. And I have to say that thesis narratives that being implant in woman in Vietnamese woman's mind I'm not on ly omnipresent in rule areas. I have one of those I have received this storey from my family. Um so I'm not fishing for compliments. Don't say anything, but I've grew up all my life listening to my family say I'm not pretty up until I was 18 when I moved out. I don't listen to this anymore, but this is what I heard and they would tell me that is it because you don't have a bit means beauty standards. We think that it's best for you to get married to foreign men because that I know I can see your face right now is what happened. This is my life. And they were like, Oh, can you know, foreign men? They are much better off and more educated. You can move abroad. And this is what I heard all my life. And so when they talk about like, Oh, this is only happened to woo a woman, I'm not going to say it's not true. City woman have to hear this narrative as well. But we have the privilege. We have education, too. Some of us can jump through that that loophole and be like This is not the only way I can live my life. Um, so this is this's narrative? Yeah, and it becomes whether it manifests into a reality depends on you and, um, other external factors. But so, yeah, they would think that that is the way to get a better life. But they have a new murder account of sexual violence, domestic violence, Green Korea, down on my wife's and Vietnamese woman for many of them. We recently run a storey about a Vietnamese woman who became a police in South Korea. She you actually live in the same city that I that I did. And she said since you became my journal, a police officer, the rates of domestic violence have not decrease is actually either stagnant increasing, Which is scary because, um, a lot of the woman here, they don't know about it. They still think that Korea is What is it is it is a Asian version. American dream, I guess. Like, but it's not true. And oldest report and findings. I'm not within their reach because they're not reading this. They they only see that tunnel vision, which is not a fault of theirs because they did. Their goal is to not and be bothered by the complication, but it is to get there to have a happy lives that they can provide the families. So the problem here thing is not that these women are, uh are you saying they're not gold diggers, but they're

spk_1:   15:35
just wanna

spk_0:   15:36
deprive education opportunities? Hey, I did private information, and they are deprived of the narrative to where they can make it on their own without relying on a better off male.

spk_1:   15:53
So these women, they're not being sold right. They're being offered. The opportunity Is that what is in the

spk_0:   15:59
net? There are evidence that some of them are trafficked. So I'm not going to say that there's no human trafficking elements in it.

spk_1:   16:10
But the way it's presented as here's an opportunity to

spk_0:   16:13
I mean, that's the human trafficking Storey has that element of incentive. Oh, we have a good job in return and you want to come over. Oh, there's a very loving kind of old Korean men, but he has money and you could take care of it. Would you like to come? There's always incentive there, Right? Um

spk_1:   16:30
because I do what assay him through my job. We do. We support Blue Dragon who way are unbelievable job about sex trafficking, and they do a lot of initiatives to go into places like away with disadvantage rule. Women who have been trafficked on Children is well, negan and educate right at the village level to be like, you know, if someone comes in and they offer you this opportunity and I'm telling you, it's gonna be like this, this is the reality. Is that anything in police right now to help these women who are being put on YouTube and sold like cattle to Korea? Or is that just going to continue on that you're seeing Vietnam Went has no the biggest exporter, which is a crazy thing to put it like that. But the biggest exporter off braids women to another country. Is there anything in police to stop that happening?

spk_0:   17:17
Having you asking about solutions? Um so my storey does South Korean Broken Storey. I didn't mention that I contacted the Ministry of Gender Equality and Family in Korea and it was fun, which should have been in a storey. But it's not, but I did contact them. Unfortunately, there was no response. And Vietnam is doing is making progress. I have to say it's not like we way of the problem and we are avoiding it. It's not that, and media coverage is a step forward. A step forward is a stepped up. We shot tow us that go. I don't think we can ever I'm going. I'm going to be blunt. I don't think you can ever eradicate this problem for good. It's always gonna be there. There's always some woman is gonna get tricked boys are being trick of trafficking, being trafficked as well for labour mostly. Did you k for example? Um but what? What is important to me that make weed that we're making progress towards that direction. There has been commitment and efforts by both government. This is no reason. It had happened since many storeys and account in evidence at South Korean, one of men of abusing their wives. So they has been educational programmes for wife to learn Korean to learn about the culture there has been. However, there has been less lesson and programme for the men to learn about their spouse, culture aspects and what their needs and so on. And that's rare. And for me, that's where it should be hit hotter should be pushed further. That understanding should come from both sides and there is this law in Korea. I'm going to paraphrase here. So do listener. If you kids catch me making six, please go ahead and let me know. There is a law in Korea where the migrant wives cannot stay or retain her resident If you girls happened and she cannot prove that is from both sides. What what does that mean? That means if she cannot prove that a hustle husband is also doing something she had to leave and had just leave everything behind and you medicated state that Children there. But that's for me is very bizarre because a divorce is hardly ever just one person's fault, Right, right, right this game. So that is that that law to me, it just doesn't make any sense. And so there should be some changes there and I think attention is being put there. There's many problematic issues in the legal framework in Korea when it comes to dealing with and helping and protecting my woman solution here. There is also educational programmes down by the government and nongovernment organisations. Blue Dragon is doing a wonderful job. I can't think of other organisation on on top of my head. There are many forums on Facebook created by my didn't Bentley's woman himself for all the dragon Businesswoman and to know about the life there, as well as to help each other make it in Korea.

spk_1:   20:43
So the migrant women who are creating Facebook PGS is that to give advice and support other Vietnamese women in Korea. And what kind of advice are you giving him?

spk_0:   20:53
Oh, like, um, I'm I didn't go through everything but the latest update. Wass a like language lessons, tax a handling

spk_1:   21:09
great practical, very practical.

spk_0:   21:11
Practical advice and language services, Language barrier is always saying, I don't know if you have heard of it. There wasa very recent case of South Korean men beating of it has been his wife for three hours. And it was it was on YouTube on, and it was it was no

spk_1:   21:35
use in Korea. Okay,

spk_0:   21:36
Area. And what was to me this is gonna sound horrible, but to me to see that is it has become an almost thing forever. Many people, because in Vietnam, beating your wife, iss seeing us a country thing. And it's very sad, but what is that thing to me that was that there was a kid in the video and he was Oh, she was observing all off this and she's going and that child's going to be traumatising to me. That's where my focus is that I adults they can work through that there are many mechanism that can help them, but I don't know how or when it's going to happen with the kid and the media. The Korean media hasn't hasn't talked much about the kids, which I understand was continued. His privacy. Oh, she needs his privacy. But I was very curious to learn how they given remedies but s oh, because of the incident and it's gone so spread out that it alert current government on the top level and they actually expressed regret. I've never seen that before. I've never seen, at least in my time or maybe our statement comes information. But I've never seen any South Korean top government official express the regret that one of my people is being hit by his citizen in their country, and to me. I'm not saying this would yield into any solution because we haven't seen it yet. But I see an acknowledgment there and that's that's a that's a very big step was a breakthrough for me to see that it's a solution. If you want to create a problem that should know there's a problem there in first place, right and I'm glad that we're making that progress. I'm excited, Seymour and I'm going to talk about this as a journalist, not an activist. So you better ship back. Question Teo journalist questions now.

spk_1:   23:27
Well, what was the follow from from the video has been arrested, obviously the Korean government stepping in when he was arrested.

spk_0:   23:35
However, there hasn't been any more information about what charges you he would face and how many years you would spend on Joe. We know that he was arrested shortly after the video was published, but that's the thing. You know, we don't know if that was just like the bandage solution like Oh, yeah, he had Someone is so bad, which is going to arrest him. And we don't know what happened to the guy after, and that's what I would like to know

spk_1:   24:01
and in light of the divorce law that you just mentioned. And so if she was then divorce him,

spk_0:   24:06
actually, after that, this outcome in court who in favour of the Myron woman, but because they can see that they saw this disadvantage in many of these situations. So they ruled the case in favour of her so she can stay if you wanted to. But she wants a divorce in custody

spk_1:   24:23
greatly. So I want to pick up on something you said just just a minute ago. You talked about education for the men in this situation, right? Which I think is so crucial, right, because so often it's What can the women do to stop this right, that they're the victims? They're not the perpetrators. And this goes back, you know, growing up. Or he told what kind of rape culture. And, you know, what was the women? What was a woman wearing things like that? You have this advice in the past. Not so much now, I don't think, but in the past that you don't quote in a dark lit area with a short dress on. But it's like, Well, women should be able to go wherever she wants dressed, whatever she wants. She's not invading, rape, being dressed like that. So that is good. That is important. I think that the main are educated two in this process as well, but it ties into our reading. I've read some of your articles, and the one that I'm kind of like I felt uneasy about, was the edge. With women now being given self defence lessons. I assumed that, But no, they shouldn't be taught self defence. The men should be taught, not sexually abuse them. And I know that it's a practical solution. But at the same time, I'm like women shouldn't have to land self defence. You know what I mean? That should not be the solution to this problem.

spk_0:   25:41
That's very interesting. Yeah, this is going to be a heated debate. This's you're not the 1st 1 I brought that out. Like, why should we teach them to certify should teach Mantis well, but there's nobody did, she mentions. Yet there's this just I haven't seen, indicate indicate in any education of the lack of large scale that's big enough for us to pay heat that men should not be doing this and that. So in the meantime, we're going to do this on our own. We gotta take care of ourselves, just just like we We hope we all agree that this issue can not be so one slight. So while we are sorting out stuff, you guys, we wait until you guys sort it out of your stuff. Yeah, So when it comes to this storey, we it's very easy to fall into that logical fallacy of like what about autism? What about this? And what about that? Well, this storey that the existence of this storey, the fact that I'm bringing it up doesn't his credit Other storey doesn't discredit the fact that men should learn about this A swell I'm telling the storey on this one side. Yeah, and when there are education programme from in believe Believe me, I'll be reporting it and then you can say And then everybody can sit back. Okay? Okay. Something has been done for the men.

spk_1:   26:53
So the impracticality I'm not saying it's about E. That's great. If women khun between Teo moulting philosophically, I guess that it's terrible that has to come to this, that we have to treat women to protect themselves, right?

spk_0:   27:08
Exactly. I think I think this is definitely something to put in mind. It's not just to defend yourself against sexual predators right there Sex predators there so many other vile things that can happen to us to be robbers. Could be I don't know, gang that want to miss you off so it doesn't just about like women versus men. It's just women learning that they are capable of protecting themselves. They don't have to rely on anybody else and I think is a great boost of self confidence for kids. So my storey actually focus on the kids classes. This is a class for kids is as heartbreaking as it is for me to stay there in the class and was one little detail that I was trying so hard to blend it in the storey. And I'm not going to say quiet. I mean, I'm not going to support the rest of the storey, but I'm going to support this detail for the readers. Yeah,

spk_1:   28:06
what I will do is put your storeys in the show notes with the links, anyone. They feel this thing going to the show notes and you were able to find a link to all these rights.

spk_0:   28:16
But bear in mind, this is not a breakthrough Storey. It's just a very mundane But I think is an interesting read. So do you guys would have heard about the ex prosecutor who may or may not touch a girl? Well, the video show that he did, he got one years and six months in gaol. So there was one thing that he told the press when he was Dipoto. The police when he was arrested and was questioned, was that he petted her pet her He didn't do anything bad was just better. So the instructor in the sound of pain class that I was observing he used that word when he was staging an attack. I want a pet. You let me pet you and it hit me, Dad, That word itself, from a very affectionate viewpoint of standpoint, has now become a tool to teach kids. Men or anyone cannot touch them. That's for me. This is a huge progress, eh? This is It was shocking. And it's not something I want for my kids. If I were to use that word, I cannot use it now because somebody has avoided. It was not supposed to be like that. So for me, sexual abuse in case is there of certain words and linguistic tools that predators use. And it's just it won't become this traumatic trigger. If you want to be in that situation, I believe you, which is emotionally affected by that storey. You will not be able to use that word anymore. And for me, as a journalist in my whole life, my whole career's about words, right? And now I'm just travel time for that word itself. So that's detail for me. It's for your crucial to put it there,

spk_1:   30:00
so I'll give just them. Give another remainder. That will probably move into maybe talking a little bit about your work regarding sexual abuse in Vietnam. And so again, if this that that is dis comforting for you to hear them, please feel free to start listening. At this point. I do want to see is, Well, I really appreciate your work because, as a stupid Western or foreigners have no, I've been ignorant enough not to learn the language. So I don't get access to all the information and what's going on in Vietnam. So I do appreciate the work that you do and the Vienna Express does. It's really one of the only outlets we can read Vietnamese news in English on DH. Obviously, some of these cases of going nationwide, like this ex prosecutor that you're talking about that has happened in district forward. I used to live, and it happened in a building one of my friends lived in, and I've seen it. It's absolutely disgusting and If you don't know what we're talking about again, we'll have the link in north. You can see it just this week has been sentenced to a year and 1/2 in gaol, which is fantastic, but he's a pewter immediately after. So we have to keep our eye on what's gonna happen.

spk_0:   31:02
Just a quick note. Yes, I do. What for? Being expressed. The English newspaper. However old reviews I'm expressing years are mine and not any other publication that I work for.

spk_1:   31:14
So I know that you wouldn't call yourself an expert on sexual abuse. Exactly what you have written many articles about it lately and not just yourself. It's getting more and more high profile in Vietnam. Obviously, this case with ex prosecutor there was the ethics teacher up north. I remember that one was quite recent. That was horrible, and more and more it's in the news, which is great, because if we can bring more attention to hopefully we can help prevent it. So in your opinion, what needs to change in Vienna more needs to happen in terms of policy of wellness education to help protect more Children here.

spk_0:   31:55
Um, I have Teo put it out there that sexual abuse has always been a problem. But it has only gain public city and awareness in Vietnam just now, just reading just recent in recent years. And one of the reason is because open taco sex is taboo. Everybody noticed in Vietnam you can have some intimate conversation with your partner, maybe in your close friends. But when it comes to being sexually abused, it's not something easy to talk about. And I feel like there should be a safe space for people to be able t express them. So if they are being abused and I'm talking in terms of household, a parent should be willing to listen to Storey or at least notice the signs when they are being. There's something wrong there, Um, also sex education. It's not, um, very, very established programme here. If there has been good news today, I do buy a storey about sex education to Vietnam, and there has been progress since. How, assuming city, it's always Portis deploying sex education classes for I think case under 10. No, I don't remember. The announcement was announced last week, and that's a that's a great thing that you can see people are paying attention to something so natural for all of us. Sex. Everybody does sex. We need sector reproduce and continue the species. Why are we not talking about? I don't want my kids to learn about psych report. I did that right. And unfortunately I have to because there's no other means of learning it. But now I can see that we're making dough. Is that that process? Yes, you could learn that sex education is beyond biological. What is it? Quite as good. But isn't all this up like, what is intimacy? What is accepted? It is acceptable or not. And I don't know if the curtain programme that's for Teeming city is running is going to be like that is going to be like old. It is acceptance, and it's not just This is a family petting you and he is a man touching your appropriately. Do you? You shoot No difference. So I don't know if we are actually there yet, but just put it there. Just put that sex education programme in all schools and then we can start talking about what is not acceptable or not. So, yes, we are talking about that. There's There's also has the Congress and the national government of the officials have talked about readjust and more on amend the legal framework when it comes to sexual abuse. They has been opinions that they should be in the National Assembly, that there should be harsher punishment for Thai child offenders. And and that should be clear definition of what is sexual harassment? What is sexual abuse? What? It's sexual molestation for the first time. Actually, they have in Could what is sexual harassment at work in the law? And I think that's fantastic. And now we are talking both adults and kids offends. And I think one of the root problems well, when it comes to section you abuse in Vietnam is that we don't know what it is. We don't know what it's constitute. Sexual abuse on that was what the debate of what the ex prosecutor did as well. Some people say, Oh, you would just love and you know, he was a grand father. He was hugging someone of his granddaughter. But I find that argument very problematic. We don't hug people like Vietnamese people. Don't hug like this is not something we do, especially strangers like, Why would you do that for me? From a culture of viewpoint, that argument is over. A lost lost lost my attention. So, yeah, so we don't We don't know what it is, what it sexual abuse is. So if we can find my legal framework, if it can be something of a discussion within the family itself was like, This is not okay. This is okay. If you see if you should always keep this into strangers, I know this will go back to your original argument about like everybody's being too cautious. Woman and girls should feel safe wherever they are. Unfortunately, it's not safe. We want Teo, so they should always be some attention going into what It's okay when it's not. It's

spk_1:   36:28
interesting you're saying about providing education to Children, especially what's the difference between, you know, affection Pettine from a family member on DH sexual abuse, right, because we obviously still have to show love and killed two Children, right? And there's a correct way to do that. And it's a shame that that's being used as an excuse. You know what I saw on your article in the comments? 11 person commented. You know, all that in Vietnam were old, cold uncles and grandparents, and you know, we should be able to show a fetching the man. And the lift was just showing affection to this girl. And it is a shame, because you don't want to lose that. Being able to show affection, which I've noticed in Vietnam, can be very loving and very caring. When you see somebody with a child in the very affectionate towards them and a very clearly non sexual way. That's a beautiful thing.

spk_0:   37:16
That's fine. Reminds of it is it's wonderful. Yeah, sure, we should be affectionate with each other, but I think the Children should be should be. You have to say in whether they OK with affection on whether they want to receive that affection. The camera footage of the expert shooter Cage clearly show that girls ran out. She ran out of the elevator as soon as his open

spk_1:   37:38
family said she wasn't traumatised

spk_0:   37:39
Block. I don't care what the families, I want to hear what she said, but in in in light of child privacy protection, I'm okay with not hearing her, but it's just the whole thing for me. I just I'm just focusing on the evidence we have. Yeah, it's a it's a camera footage for me. When it comes to that, it is all comes to family values and family hierarchy and Vietnam all over again that adults will say whatever they want. They're going to say, Oh, we want to do this for you. You should be okay with it. No. Yes, they're certain. There, there. There are things that Children should be taught like should not do drugs. We should not have sex without condoms. You don't go after 12. You if you under 60 and find those are you should you should finish school before you want to do anything measuring your life because education is important? Yes, those other less. But when it comes to affection, when it comes to how to express themselves expecting what they want, US Children were under 18. We should have a voice. I did not have this and and and I feel that it affect us. And until we see Children as little humans but with the voice of the themselves, then we can start talking solution here, all dissolution and having at the adult level. I want to see something up to capacity of the mechanism that would give Children the voice and tell them that they can speak their mind as well. And this is, well, how our education. Because, you know, there's a lot of people aware of the fact that many of the students are not expressive. They don't they don't say their opinions in class. And I feel like this will actually, what help with the solution with the problem we have.

spk_1:   39:22
And that is that culturally because very much, I think, in Eastern culture, Asian culture, to respect your elders, Ray or respect the person in authority. And is that where it comes into? Children are very, very reticent to speak up because they're taught from a young age. You don't you? Don't

spk_0:   39:41
you talk back t the elderly adults to your superiors and a teacher? Yes, it is definitely a bit in these covers, everything. I would not say it's an instant culture thing because I don't want to generalise. I know there's a

spk_1:   39:54
lot, you know, it's fine. This

spk_0:   39:56
lines, it's a very common and Senate. I think respecting the elderly is a, uh their ethics do you have ethical moral point to have. However, I don't necessarily agree with respecting Teo Lovely. No matter what for me issue start from a point of I respect you for who you are because you have ethics because you have something for me to respect. The fact that you are all doesn't automatically mean I'm willing to give you my respect. And I mean that that's for me. Does distance it right. I know. Even though this is the culture thing, nobody question it like not many people question it. I question it. Everybody goes, Oh, why should I give you the governor? I'll be old, too. Doesn't mean I'm going to expect everybody to respect me. And respecting the elders should come from it should not come from authority, point of view standpoint. If another person would come to me and be like, You have to respect me because I'm older than you. They're not using logic to convince me they using their biological desegregation. Everybody has that You're not the only one. Why do you? Why? Using this as

spk_1:   41:16
a as an argument, just called someone you used to biological degradation. Somebody does absolutely. Teo more biologically degree just before.

spk_0:   41:35
I don't mean that I don't

spk_1:   41:36
wait. No, it's not just people being ordered. People in authority is well, generally.

spk_0:   41:44
I mean, I would definitely respect someone if they're if they have merits in their argument, if they're going to use their biological feature to convince me. I'm not convinced I'm sorry. So

spk_1:   41:56
So if that's part of the problem is, you know, Children are afraid to speak up because of this in green cultural thing, where you respect your elders are people in authority and you don't speak up. What are some of the solutions, then?

spk_0:   42:11
So, um, when I was writing about sexual abuse specifically off underage school kids done by teachers, I talked to UNICEF and this lady from Genesis was telling me that they should pay more encouragement, obviously, of students expressing themselves. Yes, definitely. I think that's more photos, more under the responsibility of the teachers. But students should also know they have this one as well. They shouldn't wait for the teacher to tell them that they have. That's right. That should be a mechanism where students are getting access to the fact that they are aware of their rights to speak out, and also she suggested that there should be a hotline within the school. They provide a non amenity where student can report abuses. I think that's a very important. I don't think we have that yet in school. Andi also there has actually bean solution by the government. But a top government, the Ministry of Education and Training in May make teaching prevention of sexual abuse mandatory in elementary school across Vietnam starting this year. So so essentially, kids will learn what is good touch. Bad touch. That's fantastic. Very excited about it.

spk_1:   43:31
So reporting on something as serious as sexual abuse of Children, how has that affected you personally?

spk_0:   43:40
Is very graphic. There are storeys, does things you read in the storey because I put it there because I pick out the best pieces that reflect Storey so the readers get to know what is going on. But it's their zone so graphic that I don't reveal and I want to talk about with your friends or, if anybody asked me within reason, that would tell them. So for me is to deal with the fact that I'm losing faith in humanity every day, writing these storeys and that's a trick. You know, As a journalist, I feel I'm still I'm still honing my skills. I'm no expert. I'm not very senior. I'm earning my stripes. But as a journalist, I understood. My understanding is that you have to teach herself. Everything is interesting, he noted, to report about the reality we live in and I don't find sexual abuse details. Interesting. It's not interesting, is disgusting. But I have to package in a way so that people are aware of this problem. So for me, that's very that's very difficult for me to have to jump through, have to power through that emotional breakdown that this is happening to kids in my age and kissed younger than me. So it has affected me in a way that I would find myself like trembling and couldn't type. I can't believe it's happening to some of the kids and a lot of my cousins that at their age as well, and when I got through that, I pick up the phone. I called my aunt and my uncle and tell him this is what I do. But it is. What I know is what happening? Are you talking to your kids about it. So I have managed to benefits 02 to chance for my fear, Me being shocked into something into it into some action besides writing and I'm not going to be. I want to separate my journalism and my activities to counter this problem. I don't want them to Teo, Teo, Teo, conclude. So I'm going to care my family. I'm going to tell them what I know. We never talk about this in my family. My grandmother has seven kids, so I have sick uncles and aunties, and each and every one of them has their own family, so you can imagine how big that is. My father had six brothers as well. So, like they having their own nuclear families. And I want to be the one who breaks down Saturday night.

spk_1:   46:10
Let's talk about sex so I e

spk_0:   46:15
Oh, no, like you be whispered. I don't race black. Go into them like a like a riot. I'm like, I don't I don't do that. I wish I wish, But like they will probably told me down, I would I would try to sneak in the conversation very, very subtly,

spk_1:   46:32
but he's gonna be making a picture bhai conversation. Yeah, How do you not lose face and humanity, like you say? They're like, What do you do to keep yourself positive? Because it's so tough. Even when I've read your articles, it can make you feel I people are horrible. But what do you do to keep yourself positive?

spk_0:   46:51
I'm going to teach myself not to be numbers. I wanted to myself keep repeating to myself that this is not normal. Even though we're reporting this everyday, there's over a case of somebody being raped and impregnated by the teacher. This is not normal, even though is repeatedly happening. And for me desk even more challenging, then to stay positive. Once you're normalise something, you lose the urge to solve it. Yeah, so then that's just me. It's more even more challenging. How, like a faith in humanity, I keep people who are countering. It's probably in my loop. I would talk to them. I will keep up to date with what they doing and keep asking my solutions. What can I do as a journalist? I mean, Oh, did my job. Um, it's right writing about it, but yes,

spk_1:   47:46
give me an example, then I want to hear some one of those people that keep you positive. Give me an example of something you hear about something positive that someone's doing in. You're like, Yes, something good is happening.

spk_0:   47:56
So I mentioned earlier about the Viennese woman who became a South Korean police officer. She's fantastic example. She's one of the only seven Viennese police officer in South Korea. She had to give up her nationality to be one. You can't be any citizen and be securing a police officer. So if Storey like that, keep my hopes up like she has to go through old his Berries, you have to give up with nationality, get different language. You have to catch criminals in Korean. I can't even like Converse my needs and Koreans. And she's doing this so so so storeys like that. Keep my hopes up and Blue Dragon is doing a wonderful job. I am actually. So when it comes to know this sexual abuse stuff, yes, this is everything. Everybody you know is bad. You for more sand boy, there's no argument. There is. Undoubtedly that is vile, but we need technical skills, but as well I can't just be like always. But what can we do? Actually getting training about that? I was in Hanoi earlier for a fellowship where I talked to me. Carter of Nasa's word six. Ed um, fellowship. So I'm going. I'm going to get a certificate in that, Phil, I can talk technical skills, and I can have a good knowledge when it comes to sex education. And I feel that's very important as a journalist and as a person, I should know what it is about that aspect. Um, so yet solution that I see around me that I can do myself knowledge is where I go to keep my humanity of Kim, my faith in humanity alive here that I know what things can be done. It's just that it's gonna take time.

spk_1:   49:46
That's so great to hear, because is really confronting topic. It's not what you want to talk about. It's horrible, but it exists and it's out there, and it's good to hear that you're not getting it. It's not we're in. You don't

spk_0:   50:00
owe it Iss's eyes, but it's rebuilt itself every day. We will be also every day with you new things we learned right. We got broken down at the end of day and tomorrow, Tomorrow you rise up, you're patched the pieces together and hopefully you evolved to something greater and more meaningful of your better self.

spk_1:   50:20
So what's being the general response to your articles?

spk_0:   50:23
Very mixed. I'm trying to stay on the positive side because I know that once my work is put out there, it's going to be scrutinised. It's going to be booed by the naysayers, right? So I'm trying to. I'm still working on can like dealing with that. But there has been a lot of positive responses like yourself, like again coming back to my original point, and you should know there's a problem. You don't You can only solve problem if you know there's a problem there. Everybody knows that surely happens, happens everywhere. That's not what I'm saying. I want people to know how it's happening. That's the question I'm most fascinated about. How and why. So I'm trying to push that further. I'm not going to judge the general responses of my of my Storey. I'm happy they're there. Responses from the get go right, if it's numb and to be like whatever nobody's reading it, then I'm gonna be worried. But they are responses, and I'm going to keep up to date with those responses to see what they say.

spk_1:   51:27
Has it affected your relationships with with man? I don't know if you're lesbian with women, has has it impacted on your sexual relationship because for me, that such a tough and horrible thing to write about has that had an impact on your life?

spk_0:   51:44
No, it has not. Unfortunately, I've. I've been very lucky to meet like minded people, at least when it comes to sexual integrity. We have mutual respect, and I'm very welcome. I'm very vocal about what I do and what I believe in. Um, so he's actually strength and, uh, my relationship with the people around me with my romantic partner. I don't think it's actually affect us in any way. It affect me personally, but I'm not going to exert my anger of what is happening in the world on whoever I'm with. I don't think it's fair unless they are portraying the showing some signs up there doing something wrong, then that's a different storey. But I haven't I think, because I'm aware of all this problem I would know who are the ref lacks what other reflect. So I wouldn't be even begin to be with those people. So, no, it has not affected my personal life.

spk_1:   52:47
Good. That's great to hear. Well, thank you so much for telling me all about your articles. If anyone's listening on DH, you were concerned about listening Teo storeys of sexual abuse when they're going to move on, so there will be normal talk of that. So if you have skipped through and you're looking for a part way, do move on from those kind of storeys. This this is the part where you can start listening again. So you're Jesus.

spk_0:   53:11
I know what I do. I do rival the stop. Yes, it sure is. No. The only passion I have

spk_1:   53:18
waited about your article about the My Lai massacre last year. I massacre just this morning and I actually had tears in my eyes at the gym reading. So I'll post that one because I've been aware of the meal in Mexico for a few years now and it's just one of the most horrible atrocities ever. So we'll post that article on. I was going to see tell me a little bit about your radio article both times gender and LGBTQ. Can I give you Tell me a little bit about that Vietnam, because we've talked about this on the podcast before we had Daniel. Dwan, who's an out and proud Vietnamese man in season one, has come up a couple other times. I've been most impressed in Vietnam that it seems to be that and you can correct me if I'm wrong. But Daniel can back me up on this. That doesn't seem to be too much discrimination towards LGBTQ in Vietnam in terms ofthe daily life. Like I feel like it. And he was kind of seeing the same People just don't really kill. It's kind of like, yeah, you are who you are. I don't know. Would you find that to be true as well? And what? Your experience rating rating about that community.

spk_0:   54:23
I would agree with

spk_1:   54:25
you. You haven't listened. You gotta go back. Teo City. What do you mean you

spk_0:   54:40
can't say Vietnam?

spk_1:   54:43
Let's face it, we did talk about is very different. 1 to 40 minutes.

spk_0:   54:48
I'm definitely going to say it. I hope coming today is much more open minded about LGBT presence and their expressions, which is lovely. This is one reason why I love with you make City of Saigon. Um, however, it's very different for one to be indifferent about one sexuality and actually respect it. I guess it's like, OK, I don't care what you just Islamists. You keep it away from my sight. That's very different from I don't get what you are. Just be happy and be whatever

spk_1:   55:22
which one is which one of those

spk_0:   55:24
is very mixed.

spk_1:   55:26
I would

spk_0:   55:27
say I don't want to generalise. I know what our that had what has been a reaction. Today I was Bt Presents and I was saying those attitude or the dark one would be like, But it's fantastic. I'm gonna be part this movement. I'm going to advocate. You're right. So for me, those are the three response. It's our reaction I've seen in Saigon. I'm not going to say all this is because I have been in two of the city and Saigon. I've seen those. Yeah,

spk_1:   55:54
and so from what? From the conversation with Daniel, it doesn't seem to be too much discrimination against people from that community without the right and in Saigon in terms of talking about job prospects, you know, general treatment in life, the general treaty. Quite equally.

spk_0:   56:12
There's not a lot of health. Those is on offer. Tio Tio go.

spk_1:   56:18
So that would be a problem.

spk_0:   56:19
Yeah, but I don't know. That we call discrimination is just a lack of that.

spk_1:   56:25
Is that improving?

spk_0:   56:27
It is improving. The Cylon has the first LGBT focus. Ah, hospital like clinic on something a couple months ago. That's fantastic on DH and the effort would you beat at the Champ's gender? Law also stipulates a lot off access to house services, unfortunately, has not come out. It has not been, um, it has not been passed at the bill. Um, so I'm really expecting to see that happening soon.

spk_1:   57:00
Oh, that's good. And last question Before we move on to the final questions, I ask everybody. My last question. Which one do you prefer? Annoy

spk_0:   57:10
this's trick question? I'm

spk_1:   57:12
not gonna

spk_0:   57:12
get away with that answer. I'm not going to answer it,

spk_1:   57:18
fearing a believer that high and pretty awesome. So we'll finish with a series of questions. We ask every guest this at the end of each episode. in season two. First question is, what kind of bank do you drive if any scooter? Yeah,

spk_0:   57:32
Uh, white scooter. I have a lot of, uh, like space, which under private and I are on a plane. So I'm very happy

spk_1:   57:42
until have you always driven North German city?

spk_0:   57:45
Of course I've been driving when it was since I was 16.

spk_1:   57:48
And how do you handle the traffic? You

spk_0:   57:51
jeans man is

spk_1:   57:54
well, I asked to last because how do you do You have eyes on the road? Reach hell because you know, in the way they're really everyone. Soo Choo doesn't just left having three years. You barely see anyone get angry. I feel like I'm the angry man on the roof and I don't really do anything. I'm just in my head, only her. You

spk_0:   58:15
annoy a lot.

spk_1:   58:16
Really?

spk_0:   58:17
I don't see it here. For me, for me? I'm not gonna get away with this answer either. But me driving in Central Errors and Saigon, it's so much nicer than then that same experience in Hanoi, central areas like down tyres in Hanoi. People drive with a helmet, honk at you and give you the eyes and and I don't want to give them the same eyes like this that God is not happening the same every it's not the same. Everybody goes helmet. They seemed civil, some idiots, but in my experience, nicer to drive in Saigon,

spk_1:   58:54
in Hanoi. But I mean, it's really civil here, despite just the absolute chaos and toos Toos Answer was, It's the Buddhism. No, the fact that this is so prevalent here. That's why everyone's so seriously. Oh, wow, I was

spk_0:   59:07
about I wasn't going to take some going to talk about it from that angle. But it's interesting that you mentioned that. Does that mean I can always not Buddhist? I wait, What does that mean? That you do notice there? Not a lot off police officer on the street here? No, none in Hanoi's every corner.

spk_1:   59:26
Oh, really

spk_0:   59:27
many of them police officers, traffic ones.

spk_1:   59:31
One thing is you see this often and 40 men, and I'm sure nationwide What's the hardest thing you've seen on a bank?

spk_0:   59:42
At first, when I saw this question, I thought of I slid pay.

spk_1:   59:49
I mean, that's no that really

spk_0:   59:52
odd. But then I get you flight. Well, they have to transport it somehow. It is not that odd that, like the second thing that I think of it, I see old couple driving each other and they would hug each other and you would see the man driving. But then one hand is on. It is one of his arm is wrapped around his belly. And under that is the girls is a woman's hands. This for me is so bizarre because I only see young couples doing that and all the O. B we're doing I mean by oily alive. 62

spk_1:   1:0:25
Sure. In private, you don't

spk_0:   1:0:27
see the show affection, you know, on a bike driving and like, very affectionately, like put his hand on the on the woman's hand. I'm like this beautiful stuff looking odd like I don't see you. My parents do that for me to be a lovingly up thing

spk_1:   1:0:43
loving. It's beautiful. All right. You have 24 hours off normal journalism. No more reporting. You can take a day off. What do you do with yourself?

spk_0:   1:0:53
I'm gonna be so vanilla. I want to go to the beach. S o my Perfect.

spk_1:   1:0:59
Which beach? Saigon? There's not many going tell you having 24 hours,

spk_0:   1:1:04
I wouldn't be so vanilla. You guys gonna judge me? My It's gonna be personal. My perfect day would be a wake up. Have a very nice pretty breakfast. Have

spk_1:   1:1:18
sex. I think it's

spk_0:   1:1:25
very practical. Yeah, it's 24 hours. Something should be funny in that. And I would spend the whole morning reading by in a brightly lit room or can be by the garden, Can be by the beach and have lunch. And with either a philosopher on activists so I can have a heated debate with them at lunch. And then in the afternoon I would I love, love, love, love cycling around the lake. So I like to do that for two hours and into yoga. Maybe

spk_1:   1:2:03
six. I sure we come out thing.

spk_0:   1:2:10
You know, I'm not exhibited the same person. No,

spk_1:   1:2:15
just going cycling. Yeah,

spk_0:   1:2:19
I'm like I want to spend 24 hours for me in a perfect day would be spending with the people that I love and I care about. So the activities of like cycling reading can be done along. But other stuff, I would like all of you and I would cup up tonight with a lovely dinner with my friends, Huy in Korea and Ivory missed him.

spk_1:   1:2:41
Do you have a particular restaurant you would go to?

spk_0:   1:2:44
I'll be talking side on. Sure.

spk_1:   1:2:45
This is the Saigon podcast.

spk_0:   1:2:47
Oh, so many. I really love this vegetarian restaurant is very small kids skill. But so this is the food is great. I'm more of food over ambience person. So I would definitely recommend tip first man on fan Caving street. Very, very affordable. And it is lovely. Yeah, We'll

spk_1:   1:3:11
put that in the way. Not

spk_0:   1:3:14
a PR statement

spk_1:   1:3:15
way. Talk about restaurants and beer and every everything. All the time. Jeff, you're the next week to explore Vietnam. Where would you go?

spk_0:   1:3:25
What? Oh, I've never been to go down. I would love to go to Koda. See, you would, uh, like in the daytime, you would absorb all the suffering of the freezing field and not you Enjoy yourself by the beach. Feel like that's it. I also Bonilla thing, but yeah, my knees. The very simple

spk_1:   1:3:48
I don't understand the definition of vanilla. When you've just talked about sex, I also come down. I don't know why that's vanilla because they kinda know bean but I've had this beautiful. I know people have stayed at the six senses, which would be a dream.

spk_0:   1:4:04
But the reason why I said, Let's just like it's just one of the major, that tourist destination. I can't I can't

spk_1:   1:4:10
take my eyes. I don't think that comes off the tip of the tongue tourist destination, but I don't know, but I do want to go there. Me and my wife definitely cheque that I don't If we stayed six senses, maybe if they listen to this and they're like, Oh, yeah, you can come up here and recall the Memphis footage every night. That would be pretty also. And then the final question is, Do you have a hidden gem in Saigon that you can share with listless

spk_0:   1:4:35
my house? I don't go out and work out in front of, you

spk_1:   1:4:40
know, really know Jim James Jam. I'm sorry. I have a sick and language user. Eyes of yours. Do you have a

spk_0:   1:4:51
spare in my listener? I'm making a lot of mistakes in this house, and I know it.

spk_1:   1:4:56
A native speaker's can understand me. This is not your problem. This is a problem with my actually Do you have a hidden Jame you can share with our listeners?

spk_0:   1:5:08
I don't think this hidden, but when you drive by to Tim Lake to Tim Bridge does that section. When you look to the right, you see protects, go. You see the middle finger building and and you see just you see this massive piece of Saigon that it's not Saigon anymore. It's night time and it hits you that the city is growing with or without you. But for me, it's like it's like a point where I question my I have, like, a mile existential crisis. If is very it's like a hidden gem. What you like reflect on yourself in the CD where you looked in. So, yeah, when you drive by to Teo Bridge and you looked right at nighttime, you see those massive block. So take a look at that.

spk_1:   1:5:56
We'll put a link on the website as well for the dot on the map where you can go and cheque that out as well. Thank you so much. This is being incredible, like like fun, but also like, obviously really deep and interesting. And there are some problems in Vietnam, like every country as well. I think there is a lot of work to do, and I'm glad that somebody like yourself is shining a light on it. Obviously, having a media presence having the media report on these things is one of the most important things, because if people don't know that it's happening, then there's not going to be a solution like you say so well. It could be confronting. And while it's horrible to read about is happening and it's out there on, the only way we can really start to change is to learn the boat and then take action. So thank you for the work you're doing. I work with Children. My whole life, I think, is one of most important things in the world. And so the fact that we can start to make a difference is supremely important. So well done on your work. What's next? One of you obviously don't need details about specific are echoes that you're maybe writing. But what's next for you in your career?

spk_0:   1:6:58
All right, I'm looking forward to write more storeys about Children. At the end of the day. I'm not. I think what? I'm actually the message or one scent is that I want to train in Vietnam to hit more voice. Do you know to have more boys? They had you have boys. For them to have means to express them because I was deprived of his opportunity again with deal because your hierarchy or whatever and really want to break that down. I will not be ready to have Children of my own if this problems are sorted.

spk_1:   1:7:30
So what would be your hopes and dreams, then for the future? In terms of what we've been talking about today,

spk_0:   1:7:40
I really wish that we have more transparency when it comes to information and way are going towards that direction, and I'm very happy about that. I also hope that people don't see vulnerability and compassion as weaknesses those I usually characterised as feminine characters. I think men have that too. But you guys, it's just so screw when it comes to like you have to. You have to suppress those feelings and those elements, and I feel like it should be expressed more so, yeah, I want Vietnam to have that awesome

spk_1:   1:8:21
Well, let's hope nothing is good that I think it's getting that way as you said, like legislations changing policies changing. People are becoming more aware of it as more education in school. So it's moving in the right direction. As always with many of these things, it's going to slowly, but hopefully speed up and then we'll get there, please. So thank you very much. Thank you for your tell. You enjoy your weekend and we've enjoyed listening to send. She's been an amazing guest. It's been an awesome episode on hope. People have enjoyed listening to you and look out for future episodes.

spk_0:   1:8:53
Thank you for having me.

spk_1:   1:8:55
You're very welcome. Have a great day. Cheers. Thanks for listening to Episode two of seven Million Bakes a second podcast on a massive thank you to my guests. And when I'm not obviously being thoroughly interesting but entertaining to listen to as well, it was good to hear that she still could make light of it and wasn't too beaten down by the seriousness of our reporting that she does. I think she does a fantastic job, and it's great to shine a light on these issues. I'm however discomforting there. Maybe it's good to get that message out. Their education and see that. You know, things are changing for the better. Maybe not as fast as we like, but it's still good to see you. Thanks for listening. As always, it's great to know that so many people out there across the world are tuning in. If you want to leave me a message, you can get me at seven million bakes at gmail dot com or send me a message on our Facebook. I'll just leave a review. That would be great. If you're looking for where you can listen, you can listen anywhere. Google podcast, apple podcasts that your Spotify or the website seven million bakes dot com So thanks again for listening cheque of the previous episodes of You've Missed Any. And if you got any suggestions for someone that you'd like to hear being interviewed, drop me a line. Let me know who they are. We can maybe try and get in touch and see if they want to come on the show. So thanks again, I really appreciate you listening