Why The Growing Black Community in Saigon Created Their Own Facebook Group | Hayden Lowry S7 E7

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This is another fascinating deep dive into the live of someone who has chosen to make Vietnam home for over a decade.

Hayden Lowry runs Caribê Jamaican Patties, is a freelance video post-production specialist, and the admin for the "Black in Saigon" Facebook group.

"I was bequeathed it by a lovely, smart and intelligent lady named Hillary who is a lawyer and she was living out here. We had the the opportunity to meet each other mere months before I moved to Vietnam in 2005, and at that time you literally could count black Westerners then on one hat, there were so few of us."

Among various topics discussed Hayden explains the ‘Black In Saigon’ Facebook group was created to give this community a safe space to ask questions that would often be the subject of disdain or even abuse in Expat groups on Facebook. As anyone who has lived in Saigon and used some of these groups, they are familiar with how toxic they can be. So it is understandable why the Black Community in Saigon would want to create their own group.

Listen to the full episode wherever you get podcasts!

Shout-outs in this show to Nadis Nam, Jwyanza Hobson and Adrie Lopez Mackay (as always)!

Season 7 is sponsored by Blue Dragon's Children's Foundation and Saigon Children's Foundation. Please donate if you are in a position to.

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Theme music composed by Lewis Wright.
Main Cover Art designed by Niall Mackay and Le Nguyen.
Episode art designed by Niall Mackay, with pictures supplied by guests and used with permission.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Niall Mackay: Welcome to another episode of 7 million bikes Vietnam podcast. You're here with Niall Mackay as always. We are getting deep into season seven. Now my guest to today, he has lived in Vietnam for a total of 14 years and among many, many other things that he does. He is the owner of Caribé Jamaican patties.

[00:00:24] He's a video post production specialist and the admin for the black in Saigon Facebook group. My guest today is Hayden. Lowry. Hey, how you doing? Good. How are you? You're very welcome. Thanks for coming on 

[00:00:41] Hayden Lowry: survive and doing our best under the circumstances, you know? Yeah. The air con still works. I got nothing to complain about.

[00:00:50] Niall Mackay: So you're, you're the admin of the group black in Saigon. Is that the neighborhood? That is correct. Well, it's something that just didn't realize and you see it the longer I'm here. There is quite a large well, your lawn I was going to say black Americans in Saigon. That's not true. It's just black and say guns.

[00:01:05] That's right. Well, there is a large community of black people here and it now, now there is no, the way I've noticed, they increase over the WT of five years. So I have new, like an increase in that. But what I find interesting it's obviously you guys do have a community because when we do have the shores lake killer rose and GQ Hobson, we have a lot of black people come out and watch the show, which is awesome.

[00:01:30] When it's a white guy like me on the shore, there's no black people there to see me. 

[00:01:34] Hayden Lowry: Well, you can't, don't you're six foot 10. That's your problem right there. You got a few wieldy notes in your repertoire, you know, around the world. And we'd all be there. 

[00:01:48] Niall Mackay: It's really fun when we had them shout outs. I dunno, that gave 

[00:01:54] Hayden Lowry: that 

[00:01:56] Niall Mackay: there was really fun because when you guys all come out and there was like, Rafael was there and now look, I'd never met him before.

[00:02:02] And so it's really cool to get more people coming out, but I think it does show as well that there obviously is this community. So tell us more about that community here at psycho. 

[00:02:12] Hayden Lowry: Absolutely. Well, I mean, like it kind of, I mean, it certainly isn't about me. It's about out there first. I did not create the group.

[00:02:20] I was bequeathed it by a lovely a lovely, smart and intelligent lady named Hillary who a lawyer is a lawyer and she was living out here. And we had the opportunity to meet each other mere months before I moved to. I in Vietnam from 2005, and at that time you literally could count black Westerners then on one hat, there were so few of us there was a cohort at the time of Jamaicans.

[00:02:52] They've always been a cohort or Jamaican in those bounds and oddly enough, they, they fix or fly airplanes. Right? So, yeah, there's one of those things that when I, when I got in that community, I was like, oh, smack, like, this is amazing. None of you are singing or kicking a ball. This is, I mean, I'm here for this, you know?

[00:03:14] I mean, I came here as a, as a post-production specialist myself. So it was kinda nice to not have to be around people who are just nice to meet people who could identify with what I was experiencing at the time, which is constantly being asked, oh, do you play football? You know, what, what, what, what band do you play with things of that nature?

[00:03:36] You know what I'm saying? It got tedious after a while. But fast forward, 10 years, 2015 is when I, when I was when I left Vietnam had a really cool roommate brothers from Sacramento named grace. And he was the one who introduced me to, to Hillary. And it wasn't like we were close or tight or anything, but I've developed a reputation for having been here the longest.

[00:04:01] So when I returned to Vietnam and she was leaving, she's like, listen, Hayden, like in terms of knowing how things get done around here, like you seem to be one of the most knowledgeable. And when people know you for that, would you be interested in managing the group? So what was initially a collect, a loose collection of friends and acquaintances and people that she met in her comings and goings it, it became something.

[00:04:27] And you've fought over a thousand members in the group now. Not everybody in the group lives in Vietnam but we're a conduit. And I don't like to use the word safe space, but for lack of a better word, like it's what we are is a lot of the other ex-pat groups. As soon as he's, you're asking a question that doesn't necessarily sit within the context of the white experience or the Western experience in Vietnam, you catch heat regardless of, of, of the innocence of the question you're asking or the legitimacy or, or like, you know, if you, if you need to get, you know, seasonings or something that you're familiar with, and it's perceived as, you know, black, you're going to get some card, making some sort of unnecessary comment.

[00:05:19] And all you just want to do is get, you know, Goya beans. She knew where to get the beans. Can you tell me, cause that's all I want to know. I don't, I don't need anything else. Right. So all it will, the people in the group have had experiences like that. I mean, those of the members that actually live here, so black and Saigon has definitely become a place where you kind of go and get information and ask what you need to ask and, and just feel as if you're just normal without any sort of having to work things correctly or not even correctly differently.

[00:05:51] So as not to stand out and I've made a lot of good friendships through it. And I was, it was a big surprise to come back to Vietnam and just see how many of us are here. I got a theory as to why there are so many of us here now, but that's a, that's another conversation, so, well, that would just answer your question.

[00:06:09] Niall Mackay: It was a theory in a nutshell. 

[00:06:11] Hayden Lowry: Oh, it's the, the, the, the Obama effect

[00:06:16] Niall Mackay: and what. What's the other you're going to see, because I don't know. No, no, 

[00:06:21] Hayden Lowry: no, no, no, no. It's it, it builds, this is previous to that. The Obama effect in that 2008, you know, to the new, that whole presidential cycle, when the world got to know who Obama was, I think to myself and another, you know, black Westerners it was, it was an aha moment where here's this brother who doesn't fit any stereotype.

[00:06:51] He's worldly, he's well traveled. He's lived her portion of his life abroad. And he comes with it. He's dialed in and no matter where he goes, I mean, he's magnetic and people want to be within his, his space. And it's just him being his natural. Right. The fact that, you know, he's a Harvard grad and all of that, that was a bonus.

[00:07:16] Right. But it just kind of showed the world that look or show the young black folks that you just needed to do what you needed to do. Right. Finished school, be a good person. Don't get yourself into trouble out of your books, whatever. And that the world was literally out there for you. I, myself growing up in Toronto, the immigrant family, I always was fortunate enough to go back to Trinidad where our family was from and visit.

[00:07:42] So I personally had a sense of that. There was a greater world out there, but it's not lost on me. That there's a lot of other people in our community who just didn't have that just because of their circumstances. So to see somebody who embodied that and, and step onto that international stage and get that respect, I think it made a lot of folks realize, okay, if the country that I'm in, doesn't want.

[00:08:09] I could build somewhere else and my password will be reflected on me in a positive, and I will reflect my passport in a positive light without any of the other bull crap that comes with it that I would experience back home. Right. So that's, that's what I mean by the Obama thing. He was a, he was definitely a an influence on people who were graduating from university at the time or any university at the time we were in high school at the time.

[00:08:34] And now we're seeing those dividends being paid off by reasonably large populations of the eSport black people here in Vietnam and across Asia and, and Europe. 

[00:08:44] Niall Mackay: Yeah. That's awesome. I'm glad. Thank you for explaining that. And it's really cool to think there's one guy has had such an effect on on things that indirectly Australia just by, by these things that you've described.

[00:08:57] So that, yeah, that's really amazing. So being from Toronto, do you get annoyed when people think you're American? Oh, of course. 

[00:09:07] Hayden Lowry: But I'm so used to it now. Like I get it, my wife's British or the picture of us right there. So, and, and, and our extended family in England. Right. So every time I go back to England to visit her and her family just because her family's from Shrewsbury in the west Midlands, right.

[00:09:26] That's not exactly the most ethnically diverse what, what I get a lot over there and I've kind of learned to like, use it to my advantage, being Canadian. We grew up on a lot of British comedy. So passive aggression and sarcasm is something I do well. So yeah. 

[00:09:46] Niall Mackay: You don't have the most Canadian accent, to be honest, I'm not seeing you sound American, but you don't sound particularly Canadian, but you haven't said sorry yet.

[00:09:55] So it's always, as soon as it Canadian, anything to apologize for. Well, you're Canadian. 

[00:10:01] Hayden Lowry: Oh, hang on. Hang on. I have apologized that only the dunk joke that it just made a little Ronald Goodman can get an apology. 

[00:10:09] Niall Mackay: Sienna didn't even notice the story. So I'm missing the accent. Now. You said you your background you're from Trinidad.

[00:10:16] Are you Nikki Monashees cousins friend.

[00:10:27] Hayden Lowry: I think that gets me with that is first of all, first of all, let's be honest at this point in her career, she's a washed up. 

[00:10:39] Niall Mackay: I don't even know what I think she is. 

[00:10:42] Hayden Lowry: I'm a pretty, I think I might get pop head. I grew up on this stuff, but I think I'd like to think that I got my ear to the street, but like, what was the last time she made a big hit?

[00:10:53] That'd be all cared about. 

[00:10:55] Niall Mackay: I don't think he ever made a hit. I cared about personally, but yeah, I think so. 

[00:11:02] Hayden Lowry: I, I like there's, there's other female rappers that have come along and kind of taken her crown and I feel is that, is it like she's famous now for just saying while shit she went on Twitter and said some wild shit.

[00:11:17] That was so wild. That two, not one, but two governments had to respond to. 

[00:11:26] Niall Mackay: I saw that on the Trevor Noah show, like using D 

[00:11:31] Hayden Lowry: and he needed good. You made a good point that, that Western ideas, particularly Trinidadians have this way of like this in you in the most lightweight well, and you know, he wasted actually wasted a tie.

[00:11:46] Niall Mackay: What was the phrase for a rectal dysfunction? They said, oh, you don't have a full tank of gas. So what was it? 

[00:11:53] Hayden Lowry: Oh, that was the the morning show hosts with the polling. No, Jose, what did he say? I got a flat tire flat tire tire them 

[00:12:01] Niall Mackay: with, with no lake, no joke. This wasn't like a satirical. It was like the

[00:12:10] for the whole world to see, like I skipped brilliant one. Yeah, no that I, that it's one of these things that I saw come up on Instagram. And I thought it was a Juul. Like I just kind of screwed by, I thought it was like a parody or satire or something like that. And then it was like the next day it was that I don't think, oh, she actually said her cousin's brand had swollen, tends to cruise from the backseat and they didn't get married.

[00:12:39] Like every layer of it is just smooth. No 

[00:12:41] Hayden Lowry: ridiculous. And it's like, you're typing this, typing this new, saying this in your head to yourself. Did you not, you had to check the spelling before you hit send. Did you kind of let that to yourself and ask yourself if anybody else said that how you would react?

[00:13:00] It's fine. Said, 

[00:13:03] Niall Mackay: oh, geez. It's always always to like, how do you know how to Sue? I mean, I guess that's why people love social media, right? Because it's direct channel to celebrities. Well, you just think if you're that big, how many followers? Like a hundred million, 108 million or something like that. You want a social media manager, like have some sort of feel safe.

[00:13:19] Like the social media manager is a button on the other plates, this flows. And it goes to everybody before it goes public, you know, like some sort of software that's like, well, Nikki, Nikki's on the boozy. 

[00:13:33] Hayden Lowry: Use the Matty button. Yeah. 

[00:13:36] Niall Mackay: That's where they probably had flipped Trump. They never for the nuclear codes, maybe they should have been done 

[00:13:42] Hayden Lowry: for 

[00:13:42] Niall Mackay: diet Coke.

[00:13:42] Right. So, yeah. That's fine. Yeah. That's crazy. Right. But, so how about, so how often do you go back to Trinidad? 

[00:13:48] Hayden Lowry: The last time I was there, 26

[00:13:54] the last time I went was in 2016. Yeah. 2016. I had an uncle, my ear close uncles passed away and I had to go back for a funeral. But the time before that, that I was interested, I was 2011. While I was there, I met my wife in, what was it? You mentioned a key who was in Turkey at the time. So we didn't actually physically meet in person at the same place until we got back the site got.

[00:14:23] So they had, 

[00:14:25] Niall Mackay: well, I want to delve a bit more into that. We need to explain a bit more about that. 

[00:14:30] Hayden Lowry: Okay. So are you aware of the Saigon dodgeball group? No. Okay. So for quite a while, there's been like Saigon Dodge balls. There was going to Dodge ball scene, obviously with Kogan and everything.

[00:14:43] Nobody knows about it. Did back in 20 2009, 2010, it was, those were the hay house dates for it. I'm talking like just these 60 people show up. Well, the play Dodge ball and we used to hold tournaments at the gym at our MIT. Right. And like a hundred people. My uncle courts and then people turning out to watch there was a lot of fun, really, really competitive, great way to beat people.

[00:15:12] So, excuse me. So I've been in the group since its inception. The original creators of the group are no longer involved. But I never, I stopped playing about 2010 and I just never left the group. And yeah. So from time to time, stuff shows up on your, your Facebook wall. People making comments in the group is that there is guy, I don't know who he was.

[00:15:35] He just went on a tirade about like getting notifications and stuff, popping up on his on his feed and letting us know that he's no longer in Vietnam. Just got tired of it. Like didn't I don't have a Facebook works. Right. Ben, it's sometimes subscribed, please 

[00:15:55] Niall Mackay: like men too, when you see people do the see often.

[00:15:58] Right. And you're like, why didn't you here still? 

[00:16:01] Hayden Lowry: So I, I mean, I'm paraphrasing here because I don't, I literally don't remember exactly verbatim what I said to them at like late, I think maybe later that day or the next day, like the lady who would ultimately become my w my wife, the MDME and yeah.

[00:16:18] She 

[00:16:18] Niall Mackay: slid into your DMS. 

[00:16:19] Hayden Lowry: Yeah. But I mean, it's just, she's just like what you said to the dude was funny chatting just based on that and what was unique? What, what, what pushed the conversation? What pushed us to continue talking was that was the summer of, well that England caught on fire because all the riots summer of 2011.

[00:16:39] So there were protests all over the UK and they were like riots and fires, this, that, and the other and parliament had called that emergency center. And they broadcasted live on cable, cable, TV, and Trinidad. So I was watching it edit fricking sense. Like I was just like, I've never seen some completely disconnected politicians in my life.

[00:17:04] I haven't seen that Canada has great politicians or America does for that matter, but to be so completely out of touch with your electorate just blew my mind. Like people are telling you why they're angry. A and you're talking about something completely different. Did you lack the place? Smells check.

[00:17:24] Yeah, it was just like, 

[00:17:26] Niall Mackay: well with that, they went after all those rioters with like, as a zealous, that was just a zealot. What do you seem to have us in this? That was just unrivaled, but all the bankers and everyone who had caused all the ion and caused all the economic me. Went completely unpunished, but someone who still appears sneakers was having, you know, the fucking book thrown at them.

[00:17:48] You know, 

[00:17:49] Hayden Lowry: I was just trying to wrap my head around, like where, where, where does pay go from here? If there's a clear and obvious problem and the people who are tasked with solving it are on a completely different wavelength. They're like, I mean, you're familiar with the term out in left field, right? So like where I'll use a cricket analogy near your, your, your way I stand by whatever you're Scottish.

[00:18:21] I should not as a stupid thing for 

[00:18:22] Niall Mackay: me to even go into, we had a quake in Scotland. We'll just know

[00:18:29] Hayden Lowry: better than you guys probably. They are, they are, and I know this because I watch cricket. So that being said, that being said, you know, the political class, which is just completely disconnected. So I just needed somebody to explain all of what I was seeing. Cause I had no point of reference for it. So that summer, my wife and I just had some really substantive conversations where she kind of explained what she understood.

[00:18:52] Niall Mackay: And she was in Saigon at the time. 

[00:18:54] Hayden Lowry: Well, both of us were living in Vietnam at the time, but it was summertime. And we were both on holiday, in different country care. She was in Turkey and I was in Trinidad. And we started talking while we were on holiday. So we didn't actually meet in person until almost a month later.

[00:19:11] And w the conversations went great because who at the time they didn't realize that my, my wife's a history teacher, high school history, a lot of the feedback I was being given for the things that I was asking was quite substantive and grounded in. Historical facts that I know nothing 

[00:19:31] Niall Mackay: about it wasn't a friend's cousin's opinion that she 

[00:19:34] Hayden Lowry: absolutely was not a friend's cousins testicle giving me the answers that I saw with somebody.

[00:19:40] She actually went to school and graduated as has good diction and can explain things. So it was, yeah, because yet Gracie hated me to her hurt, ingratiated her to me. Yeah. That's it. And yeah, so I was like, all right, I didn't see who this person is. And here we are. 

[00:20:02] Niall Mackay: That's awesome. Well, you, like, before you met in passing, were you already kind of like floor in so to speak like, or was it you met up and then you were like, oh, 

[00:20:13] Hayden Lowry: oh,

[00:20:17] say, look, let's be honest. Like, you know, you started talking some random girl called, who the hell are you started going through her pictures? Oh, E the camera likes her. 

[00:20:27] Niall Mackay: Yeah. So the attraction was already there, 

[00:20:32] Hayden Lowry: I guess. Ultimately it was something that blossomed. It wasn't like a, it wasn't kind of like it wasn't Tinder ish at all.

[00:20:40] Yeah. 

[00:20:41] Niall Mackay: So you, you would, how long have you been together then? And total? 

[00:20:45] Hayden Lowry: If you don't include the nears she spent the years she spent in Brazil. Pretty much the entirety since 2011. 

[00:20:56] Niall Mackay: Yeah. So, but, so my wife and I have seen like 10 years, we just had a 10 year anniversary in July. So you be of the same.

[00:21:03] We are of a very special generation. We are of the post or pre Tinder generation. 

[00:21:11] Hayden Lowry: Yep. Yep. We got, see 

[00:21:14] Niall Mackay: it. Well, I wouldn't say that, but I got fat. Come on, dude. 

[00:21:18] Hayden Lowry: You're funny as hell.

[00:21:19] But 

[00:21:19] Niall Mackay: yeah, so I, like, I've never, never used a dating app and it was just, I mean, I was with my wife when we found out about Tinder for the first time we went in a bar in New Zealand, hanging out with some friends and then this guy kinda mentioned it casually with other friends. Cause they all knew what it was.

[00:21:34] And we were like, what? And then he explained the, you know, the whole, well, yeah, picks up someone like within your circle and blah, blah, blah. And, and use me up and hook it. This was when Tinder was really literally like if you match with someone you're meeting up to have sex, like there's no 

[00:21:50] Hayden Lowry: layer. There was a point I never used it myself.

[00:21:54] You'll have to I'm ignorant of all of this. It's like, oh really? That's how it works. So that 

[00:21:59] Niall Mackay: we even at as most, I think it was so brand new, like that was lit because it was grain, the risk flushed. Right. Which was the gig Tinder Tinder. Was it the other way around? I can't remember. I feel like Grindr was probably for.

[00:22:14] Hayden Lowry: I don't remember dating. It's not that I've never used the dating app. I mean, in Toronto, before moving here, I, you know, I, it use, you know, I'd never shifted in some of those 

[00:22:24] Niall Mackay: websites for that, because there was heaps. It wasn't like OkCupid and match. And add that. I 

[00:22:30] Hayden Lowry: remember the name of the one that I used to, I don't remember, but like when I, when I left Toronto has, is kind of like, alright, I don't need to do that anymore.

[00:22:39] There's actually a lot and meet people. And I, I, you and I come from a generation where nightclubs had dance floors. It wasn't all like bottle service and 

[00:22:53] Niall Mackay: I've not been on nightclub in a very long time 

[00:22:56] Hayden Lowry: being in a place with now. It's just like all, it's all VIP bottle service and dancing in a semi-circle with all your friends and not actually are really I, I remember like if you went to a club, you're actually having to talk to people.

[00:23:12] You had to have some sort of ability to strike up conversation or dress well or smell good or dance well or something no yet. And a peacock a little bit somehow or the other, right. You had to learn to be somewhat adept at it. Or you got to hope was suitable. Right. Now as it's like 

[00:23:33] Niall Mackay: this man joy.

[00:23:35] Hayden Lowry: Yeah. And it's like, oh, you'd like me for you. I'd like you to do this. I guess that's what it like. It's like, I have no firsthand experience with it, but 

[00:23:44] Niall Mackay: now it's just, it's just weird. But we also, we all a very like, so we're all the generation as well. So I think you're about the same age as me. You would have grown up in your early years without the internet.

[00:23:54] Right? Like we, what it was like, so we are. It's pretty mind blowing when you think so I'm 39 now. How old are you again? I'm 46, 46. You look younger than 

[00:24:05] Hayden Lowry: me. That's great. And the beard didn't give it away, right? No, no. You're, you're, you're trying to, I see right through that. 

[00:24:11] Niall Mackay: Well, yeah, so like we have like the last generation to grow up without the internet.

[00:24:17] Like that's mind blowing. Do you know what? I had a student in one team, right. The wifi wasn't working on my laptop in the classroom. And so I was able to just plug it into the land keyboard. Right. And he was a smart kid. He made robotics, he went into robotics competitions in like other countries. So he was not like a dumb kid at all.

[00:24:38] He could not understand what I meant by. I was plugging in the internet and he's like, but the internet is like, what do you mean? You're plugging it in. It's just like, it's wifi. And I was like, yeah, but we have the thing. The wifi comes from. Well, I don't know. It's just, you know what I mean? And he was still cute and I've leaned on plugged into the tethered light.

[00:24:58] Jesus has blessed us. So that was a big eye opener to me as well. Like this kid, not only did he, he's only ever grown up with the internet. He, he was a bit of a 10 or 12 at the time, which was a few years ago. He didn't really have a grown up with wifi and automatically your devices are instantly logged on to everything.

[00:25:15] You know, 

[00:25:16] Hayden Lowry: my having kids right now, it blows my mind that they're growing up. Not really knowing the world without the technology, the star Trek technology that we had today. 

[00:25:31] Niall Mackay: She has some Tashay technology. That's a good way to,

[00:25:39] Hayden Lowry: what we'll do. Write down codes, man. That's some freaking tri quarters shit. Like let's be honest. But my mind free, everything is watching my, my, my kids. Don't like. I don't like the TB, like, it's, it's weird. Like if it's, if it's a tablet, they're all about that. I'm like, I don't remember how TVs used to be small.

[00:25:59] And like, I got a 60 inch television in that house. Right. And it's actually it's, to me, it's still too small. It used to be bigger. I'm not satisfied until it gets done hundreds, a hundred centimeters or inches rather. And the hearing it comes to these kids and they're not interested. The fricking 4k, they want the tablet on when I turn on the TV.

[00:26:19] Yeah. Because my little one walks up to the thing and starts freaking swept in the screen. I'm like, no was a good 

[00:26:26] Niall Mackay: that

[00:26:30] I was 

[00:26:31] Hayden Lowry: like, I get it. I mean, this is how far we've come now. Right. So I could only imagine what the world is going to be like in another 30 years, I probably won't be alive. It. It'll probably be more amazing that it is now. And they'll look back on these days and be like, oh yeah, I'm old school. Why fives what's that?

[00:26:50] You know? 

[00:26:51] Niall Mackay: So, no, not only as you mentioned is my wife amazing. She comes to every shoe. She also listens to every podcast and she's about to hate me for what my boat to tell you. Fuck what you just said that about your kid and the TV. I remember one day, this, a few years ago, I was doing something on my Mac book and she'd been on a phone, you know, when you, you swipe your phone and she came over to my back, I asked her for some help and she went up to the screen and she checked it and I was like, what are you doing?

[00:27:20] And she's like, oh,

[00:27:28] Hayden Lowry: aren't you managing me? But that shit cut. 

[00:27:34] Niall Mackay: I think I've maybe done it myself once as well. I think I do remember at one point going to like this screen and stop it and be like, cause you're just so used to on your phone, but yeah, no, we live, we live in this, we're the generation of living without the internet growing up and then not using dating apps.

[00:27:52] It's where I know very small niche of, of the 

[00:27:54] Hayden Lowry: world, you know? Well it's, and I don't know, I feel sorry for this kids because if aliens ever come and drop you know, lose EMPS on the planet and like shuts down all extra city, never lose their shit.

[00:28:11] My kids sit down at the table and you take the tablets away. They don't know what to do. And literally don't like what? We got to talk to each other. Yeah. How hugging you got to talk? How was your day? What did you do today? What did you, what did you watch on TV? Like talk to me about something. All right.

[00:28:29] And you know, it just shut 

[00:28:33] up 

[00:28:33] Niall Mackay: and it's like, so as a peer, is that difficult? No. I mean, not that you would be able to compare it because you went up here in the past, but as a parent now, well, 

[00:28:44] Hayden Lowry: my first, my eldest he's neither pick a year. Right. And to be honest with you, we never really wanted to get into that whole habit of eating with a device in front of him, but they turn into zombies when you do that and they just open their mouth and you can shovel whatever the hell you want into there.

[00:29:02] And they'll consume their dinner with little, little bus, and you can go on about your day without losing a blood vessel, bursting a blood vessel. So it was something that we started out of convenience. And then with the second one coming along, of course he sees this, all the brothers were there. He wants to do it.

[00:29:20] And it got to the point where, what, two months ago I ended up going with. Yeah. About a month ago, I bought him out. I Kendall fire because they were starting a fight over the one tablet that they had. Right. My, my elders can, he's always been able to, like he was too, he could took him to the cinema and he'd sit there and watch the whole movie at two.

[00:29:41] Wow. Absolutely loves going to the cinema. Absolutely loves it. My youngest, I shouldn't have, I should not have, let him, let him watch Blippy man, that kid has a ten second attention span. Well, he'll watch something for like 15, 30 seconds next next. And like, it's like watching somebody with Tourettes watch television bizarre.

[00:30:06] Right. He has no patience for anything. So maybe, maybe it'll change over time. But even hiney who a second, that is, he's a good eater. None of the problems that I had had in BARR, Elvis. But if you don't give him the tablet, now you'll refuse to eat it to get, or he's figured it out.

[00:30:32] He has an understanding you can't swipe the TV screen, but he figured that

[00:30:38] Niall Mackay: no, I wanted to ask you about, I saw you on nadis is a sure Nam Dan Shaw on YouTube too. He was a previous guest on here. I think seasoned five an unbelievable, really interesting interview. And and then as soon as that short. And I saw it was you and G key together. The GQ has been a previous guest.

[00:31:00] So now all three of you have been on, on the shore and I don't watch much YouTube and I certainly don't watch much long form on YouTube, but that was one episode. I actually sat and watched the whole thing. Cause I messaged you. Then I remember during 

[00:31:15] Hayden Lowry: any of this, yeah. I looked at this thing and I was like, oh my God, just another person that's seen.

[00:31:21] Niall Mackay: Two's great. And so, so named Dan, he's kind of changed tack a little bit like recently, and he's doing a more ex exploration of his African roots and things like that. And I haven't watched much more, to be honest, I'm just not big YouTube, but it's crazy because there's just so much content it's that Ronnie is in his like stand up bit and he's just like, oh my God.

[00:31:39] So much content it's. I mean, I'm part of the I'm producing and this is so much out there and I would love to watch it all at Bailey. To do anything, never mind. I'm too busy, almost making my own content. I barely have any time to watch anyone else's and there's so much that we'd love to watch and a dog.

[00:31:57] But my point is I did make the effort to watch that one. Now, what I wanted to ask you about what a phone of really interesting you obviously, and you've talked about on the show, you took umbrage at one of the lanes in, in his song, and I think that's why you are on right? Pretty 

[00:32:12] Hayden Lowry: much it wasn't just me.

[00:32:13] It was JK as well. Suffice it to say, it's this all circles back to black and Saigon from time. From time to time, there will be seismic shifts or little eruptions within the group. It's usually a very tame place. To be honest, we don't do too much offline group activities. We we've, we've had a couple of events that have been well attended.

[00:32:40] As a general rule, nobody really has taken up the mat looping like the social butterfly. So there isn't a whole lot that happens offline that representative of the group. But from time to time within the group, somebody will post something or somebody will make a comment and all hell breaks loose. So he not as that is posted one of his videos, which he was regularly doing on.

[00:33:08] And he's, he's a bit of a celebrity in our group as well, because you can do something. That's amazing, a genius. He could speak actual Vietnamese and none of us can speak as well as him. Everybody thinks I'm, I'm pretty good, but I'm not on his level at all. I'm not even close, but you know, the fact that he posted that music video and what it was about.

[00:33:37] Niall Mackay: Cleo. So for people that are listening, don't know what we'll talk about. And I think now this talked about this song when he was on this shore, but he was literally like releasing it the next day. And so, and correct me if I'm wrong. So the song was basically about being a black man in Vietnam, Vietnam.

[00:33:53] Yes. And he took a Vietnamese song, which was quite new, like a modern song. Right. And then reworked the lyrics. But do you want to explain I my members and explain it more and then you can explain what that Elaine was that you were that not just you, but others took offense to, because what's that episode with you.

[00:34:15] I was like, Ooh. Yeah, I could see why he would and not, not being happy with that. 

[00:34:20] Hayden Lowry: What are the, one of the lines was that, you know, my skin may be black, but my heart is white. I think the I'm 

[00:34:27] Niall Mackay: paraphrasing here. I think that was what it was. 

[00:34:28] Hayden Lowry: And I'll bet that's it. The best rap song. But it came from a good place and he, his, his, his content is supposed to be relatable and, and funny and not complex at all.

[00:34:47] Right. So for him to delve into this particular type of subject matter was, was a little bit out of his comfort zone or not. I shouldn't say that I shouldn't put it that way. Cause then it has to pass it in a negative light. It was just a little different than when Dan normally does. It was just, it wasn't supposed to be like, ha ha fun.

[00:35:07] Like it needed to speak Vietnamese funny. It was, it was supposed to be exposing Vietnamese people to a different truth. Like there's other people who don't like, look like you, but who are feed the news? Cause his son was in the video and his son was rapping in it and stuff. So it all came from a very positive place.

[00:35:28] It's a bit. When again, it was coming from a positive place, but then when he said that line, it was kind of like the record scratching earner. Oh, Hey. 

[00:35:39] Niall Mackay: Cause he said it in Vietnamese. Right. But I had this uptight title. So you could, then you could understand it anyway. 

[00:35:46] Hayden Lowry: So yeah, I, I, both myself and J K didn't have particularly nice things to say about it.

[00:35:55] But now I'm being now and he's a genius. He's he's not a stupid guy. He colluded with a couple of people in the group to get JK and I on his, his show the interview. And so we, we, it was as, as APPA on on the Kim's convenience with snake that they, you know, they, they came up with a sneak attack cause we had no idea.

[00:36:22] We were, we thought we would just meet it up with you to like. Oh, 

[00:36:25] Niall Mackay: okay. You didn't know you're going to do a 

[00:36:26] Hayden Lowry: show. Yeah. We rocked up to this building and we went inside. It was like, oh, okay. It's a studio. There's cabinets here. Oh, Jimmy Kay. And I are like, okay, look, we said it, you got to own it. 

[00:36:42] Niall Mackay: If you want to share.

[00:36:42] Cause I don't know what was it that you said or 

[00:36:45] Hayden Lowry: no, it wasn't that, I mean, the guy off, he was just like, okay, that's corny. Like how that, that goes down. Like a lead balloon in a room full of black people. It cats being lack in a negative light and it just, there's nothing wrong with the way we look.

[00:37:02] There's nothing wrong with having black skin at all. Right. We shouldn't have to quantify or qualify it by saying, but my heart is who cares. It has nothing to do. Right. So I, yeah, our language, might've been a little saltier than that. And don't ask me to say exactly you. I don't even remember it. It wasn't like we were accosted them in the same disguise I'm already.

[00:37:22] I think you didn't even like that, but it did format the conversation in a bait with him and coming out of it. I, another mutual friend of ours, I mean, Turner yet. No, no, don't do Turner. You got it. Okay. You know, JK has got another podcasting YouTube thing that he does. We have 

[00:37:42] Niall Mackay: seen him out here, his cohost, 

[00:37:47] Hayden Lowry: that's a guy that you need to get audio podcasts.

[00:37:48] Nope. 

[00:37:51] Niall Mackay: yeah, 

[00:37:51] Hayden Lowry: yeah. He's here. He's here. He's one of my best friends. So Turner, basically he, he said it straight and he's like, you got to remember who his audience is. He didn't make this for you. And I, he made this for Vietnamese, right? So you got. Who, who the messages for who's supposed to be receiving it and how they understand things.

[00:38:12] Wasn't the most elegant way of doing it? No, but he's trying to do something positive and you really can't really dog the guide for him. That pretty much ended the debate. Like he came in there to set that and everybody's like, yeah, you're right. And that was that right. So what was good about that was that when we did get sneak attacked, we were already in that mindset that, okay.

[00:38:38] We said something, if you were a bit with it, but we even had to kind of take stock of what we said and change our, our stance a little bit. So it was really ultimately a really good conference. And, you know, I thought so. I enjoyed that. It resulted at, up until that point, I'd actually never met now. I didn't eat.

[00:39:03] You were friends. And now I can say that we are like, you do chat and hang out and I got to know him through that. So, yeah. Is there, there's your answer? 

[00:39:13] Niall Mackay: Yeah, no, that's awesome. Well, the two more, I enjoyed about that as well, from my point of view. So one as well which is almost like obvious in itself evidence, but it's almost not as well.

[00:39:25] And you guys talked about it is black people on a monolith and he's a Nigerian youth and the daddy hin Jake, he's like, well to Rican, like we have this label of white people. And so your tone about your group, I can just imagine those factions warring factions, but you know, like 

[00:39:46] Hayden Lowry: absolutely is there absolutely is because like the.

[00:39:52] And this isn't, this isn't for negative thing. I feel like a lot of white folks don't really think about this because it, whiteness is the fact though normal. So anytime we're talking about Americans, really, and truly they're talking about white Americans, they don't say white Americans. They just say Americans, same with British.

[00:40:14] When we talk about the Brits, like they're not talking about, you know the AME people, they aren't right. Even in Canada, we experienced the same thing. So often times when we start talking about differences in the way we might see things politically or culturally, you get confusion on the part of other others.

[00:40:40] Like, well, look, I'm I'm even in the Caribbean, I got to back it up a little bit. Vietnam, bring up China. In any context to a Vietnamese person and they are not likely to say nice things and they are their neighbor. So a lot of folks outside of this region, if you were to take a Chinese person and put them right next to a Vietnamese person, they couldn't tell the difference.

[00:41:07] If they started talking, they couldn't tell the difference. Right? So far, be it for me to start talking about the differences between Trinidadians and Jamaicans or the differences between Nigerians and south Africans, right? Unless you are from those places or have some affinity for understanding those cultures, the distinctions are not necessarily easy to make for the uninformed.

[00:41:33] Right. What they're front and center in our group. It's, it's lack in Saigon are fundamentally S Ori groups. So. We have one gentleman, who's a writer and he writes for a publication in he writes in French republication in Africa and he often posts his writings. And I think a lot of people think that the guy's just like sharing random stuff about Africa, because one of the rule, the groups group rules is like, you don't owe stuff that isn't relevant than living here.

[00:42:06] Right. So his posts are costing you to getting like flagged for like, this is inappropriate, like hit me up and they picked us down. This is not about Vietnam. And it's like, the dude actually lives here and he's posting his work. He's sharing in self with you. Right. So, no, I'm not going to take it down.

[00:42:23] Right. But again, it's a fine example of, you know, people who are, you know, outside of the African context who don't get that, you know, and they're black themselves. Right. So. It's a, it's an interesting dynamic in the group. It, but it's all, all positive for the most part. And you've helped a lot of people.

[00:42:44] Let me just put it that way, because there's often a lot of folks that come to the group, having had some really, really, really negative experiences on some of the, and I'm not going to name them, but popular Facebook groups that both of us belong to that are supposed to be there to help everyone and really to be a blend about it only helped the white folks, because if it doesn't matter, if you're where you're from, if you're not white and you just call her up the side of the line just a little bit and bring up something that just might be that much more related to your context than the white context.

[00:43:19] That's when the nails come out, the fangs come out in the claws, come out. At the time, people just want to know where to get the go-ahead 

[00:43:26] Niall Mackay: when I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. But if, I mean, these Facebook groups are just a bit of a cesspit. Anyway. I mean, even yesterday, some poor guy posted on this ex-pat group that he had this like dizziness that had been lasting for a while.

[00:43:39] And did anyone have any advice? And I actually have, well, I still suffer from that and I've suffered from in the past. So I was like, oh, sweet. I'll like comment and help them the top comment. But some guy like, bro, why you come in on Facebook, get yourself to a doctor what's wrong with you? And you're like, I mean, well, if the ex-pat in Saigon group, it's not that easy.

[00:43:59] You have to just be like, I'm just going to go to the local doctor. Like I might tell 

[00:44:02] Hayden Lowry: you here on a guy where to get to the doctor or where he could go. Like, 

[00:44:07] Niall Mackay: yeah, we've done the same as well. There's times where I've gone to the doctor. Cause I'm like, I don't really know how I'm going to explain this.

[00:44:13] Like even if they're speaking. Yeah, I still don't really know, like, you know, I've got some wheel peered in my army and I don't really know what it is. And like, and you know, some of the healthcare is not the best. And so, you know that like, I'm going to ask them to sing in an east kinda. And I slipped a disc in my back and I went to the doctor and they told me go ball.

[00:44:32] And when I went to the, the American chiropractic clinic, the first thing the doctor there said was, where's your MRI? And I was like, I don't have one. He's like, what the fuck? Why have you not got an MRI? I'm pretty sure you've got a slipped disc, go and get an MRI and then come back. So like, you know, these things happened.

[00:44:49] Hayden Lowry: Absolutely. Absolutely. And as well, it's kind of comments from other people are absolutely unhelpful, right. Rather than yellow, the folks in grabbing asked the question. Help them solve their pilot. 

[00:45:00] Niall Mackay: Someone put under that comment was like, dude, just keep scrolling. Why, why have you even responded? Like if you, anyway, the other thing I want to go back to and touch on in your episode too, that was really interesting to me because I, as a white guy, obviously, and I'm from Scotland where we are pretty much all the bloody scene.

[00:45:17] The thing is interesting though, just a quick aside, the last time I went back to Scotland, it's become really diverse and partly because of immigration and accepting of refugees and things like that. So I grew up and I've talked to this on the podcast before, so won't go into detail, but 99% white people, maybe a couple of Indian families or Pakistani.

[00:45:37] But that was the most part all. Wait, when I went back, it was incredible. The amount of mixed race couples, I saw it just in the city center or in BAS, but mixed race children. And cause when I grew up, if we were starting to have an influx of refugees from other countries and people of color moving now, but then I last, like I've been gone lately and mostly, almost 20 years just been back a little bit, but this was the first time I had gone back and noticed like, oh, it's and I don't know if you've had the boat in Glasgow.

[00:46:08] We had called Glaswegians. Yes, yes. Which is, and you can shorten that for Wiki and leave. Yeah. So we choose someone from Glasgow and this makes me really proud. We're really pro refugee in Glasgow bay. Same thing of refugees, not everyone, of course, but there's a big, big support for them. They call them refu.

[00:46:28] VGs

[00:46:33] Hayden Lowry: that's 

[00:46:34] Niall Mackay: like a town that's in Tampa. In Devin. Yeah. That's, that'd be one thing I've seen, like people with posters, like, you know, you're a rescue VG now, like as a term of endearment, not as a slate at all, it's like, you are one of the. Which is 

[00:46:46] Hayden Lowry: interesting. Cause you know, my wife and I have had conversations about like, you can move back where, where I would be comfortable living every time I visit, I make up because I have friends who are from various parts of the island.

[00:47:00] I just called your country in island. How about that? That's pretty awesome. Nobody ever does that deep. If I'm going to do that more often. Oh, as an island, 

[00:47:10] Niall Mackay: an island, not more than I held him may not be too hardship to shape, but I'm gonna do it anyway. 

[00:47:17] Hayden Lowry: Let's pick up. But I have friends all over the place and anytime I visit, I make a point of like taking a weekend thing goodbye to my family.

[00:47:26] I'm either taking the car or I'm buying an overpriced train ticket and going to visit somebody in whatever part of the country. And you know, I I've seen a fair bit of the place now. I've always said to my wife, like I live in Scotland and she's like, adamant like, no, no, hell no. And it isn't me. She's worried.

[00:47:56] She's ready to

[00:48:01] catch. Apparently Scots don't like Englishman. So who knew, okay. Do you know 

[00:48:09] Niall Mackay: what she's probably right there. You will not have a problem. She may do. You know what I Scotland is? And I obviously haven't realized, I said, I've lived there for 20 years, but we are, is an awesome country. We have three prescriptions, which you can build to like the U S obviously free prescriptions all sanitary products, or we don't call them that.

[00:48:29] And we'll do a women's hygiene products. What's the kind of sanitary pads. No, but that changed out because that's like a, I read that Mackins no, no, because like, if you're calling it sanitary, you're making it seem like it's easy when it's just like a, oh, okay. The changing, like that can apply to teach a little bit.

[00:48:48] That was another women's products, but they're there for free now as well, because, cause that's kind of like, you know, kind of thing now it's like a tax on the women. If they have to pay for something that they have used. So that's free. No. So we do a lot of cool things as well in the refugee thing, but one thing.

[00:49:04] So I want to just go back and then we're going to finish up with the last question is one of the last things about that video, which I, I personally, as a white person found very helpful. Was it? You said that it's all key to describe someone as black. 

[00:49:19] Hayden Lowry: Why, why 

[00:49:20] Niall Mackay: wouldn't you, because, but see to hear you say, meet me.

[00:49:24] That that is depends on you kind of described it as like that would be on like, do I, do I, can I call them black? Do they see like, what can you see it that made me feel like, okay, then I don't have no hesitation when you're talking about using it as an adjective to describe someone, the black guy, 

[00:49:40] Hayden Lowry: the black guy.

[00:49:41] I think for me, it was things. I feel like we're living in this age. I, I can't, I don't like using certain, certain terminology because I find like their cat traces that really generally have very little meaning. One of which is, is, is woke culture. Like I think it's a really dumb term, right? What we are living in a time where people I would say are hyper-sensitive.

[00:50:07] And maybe for good reason, I am not, I'm not going to sit here and debate why or why people shouldn't be hypersensitive, but it's better than not being sensitive way better. So if anybody has like being uncomfortable in front of me, that to give a description of somebody who's obviously black, I'll finish the sentence for you.

[00:50:27] I can mean the black guy, because I don't know if I'm trying to think back to the end of the youth. I've been mentioned it, but one of the things that irks me, as well as like people, I don't see color where I'm fucking blind color blind, you know what that actually means. You can't tell it, the lights lit, dude, like you even get in car accidents.

[00:50:49] Nobody wants that. 

[00:50:52] Niall Mackay: It makes no 

[00:50:52] Hayden Lowry: sense. I mean, it's actually, when we're doing just simple, basic stop is like, you know, who wrote this for what's the Chinese guy, where was the white guy, was the black guy and the cops would go, go, go look for the person. Right? Give an accurate description of what the place or even if you're just trying to, you know, find somebody in a crowd or what happened, you know, I feel that there's just certain things that you don't have to complicate unnecessarily.

[00:51:15] I 

[00:51:15] Niall Mackay: think it's, it's obvious. But as someone who doesn't want to offend someone and what I was up until I had this interview, I would have been unsure of to use that and how to see it properly. And then after I watched that, I was like, okay, a few more confident note to be like, oh yeah, the black guy, you know, like without knowing how they use peak, say black belt on now.

[00:51:37] But when I hit talk about that, I was like, okay. So I don't need to worry about like link guy was the guy you talked about, like our, the, the guy over there, that's the tall guy. And you're like, yeah, the black guy. Yeah. That guy, that, that was like, so in this coming lockdown situation, if you jump on your bike right now, where would you go?

[00:51:59] Hayden Lowry: If, if I, if family wasn't an issue I would do the one thing that in 14 years of living here, I've never done. And that Stripe. 

[00:52:11] Niall Mackay: Okay. So people aren't understanding this question every episode and even make it clearer. I mean, in the context of we're in a lockdown, well, not even not allowed to leave our house.

[00:52:23] Oh, if you could just jump on your bank rhino and go somewhere 

[00:52:26] Hayden Lowry: where everything's closed, dude. 

[00:52:30] Niall Mackay: Well, I mean, just pretend log there. Finish no bang. You can jump on your bait. Where would you go? 

[00:52:34] Hayden Lowry: Well, it's locked down when it's finished and I could go anywhere and I didn't have to take my kids in my family.

[00:52:38] I just felt I would drive to Haddaway cause I've never done it. And I would invite you. Cause you know, in case I got a flat tire, like that company is something like that. So 

[00:52:48] Niall Mackay: that's way too way too far on away. That'd be good. That'd be good. Let me go into the other side of that toady and or something like, that'd be good to see the sunrise, the sunset.

[00:52:57] Hayden Lowry: I'll tell you what I reversely enjoy doing, driving the hems of district eight at Christmas time. No, if you've never. You went next Christmas, if 

[00:53:12] Niall Mackay: we can. Yeah. Let it out, 

[00:53:15] Hayden Lowry: make it there's. A lot of Catholic churches in that district a lot, like freakishly high number of cash, Catholic churches. And apparently that's the district where all the Catholic either means people live and they take Christmas very, very serious.

[00:53:30] Niall Mackay: SUNY ends a bit like that. There's a couple of little hymns and food Yannick Christmas with like light. Oh yeah. 

[00:53:36] Hayden Lowry: Like you just go through and see the sky. It's just lights and, and ever more inventive ways of, of, of smashing Santa Claus and Jesus together. 

[00:53:49] Niall Mackay: Well, I'm talking about luck then. So what has been the most challenging thing about this or any lockdown that you've ever been?

[00:53:56] Ah, 

[00:53:59] Hayden Lowry: it's going to sound wrong. I'm sorry. I apologize from that. It really hasn't been that problematic or. And I, and the reason being is, is multitudinous ended up in that one. I'm very cognizant of the fact that I'm a foreigner. My, my lifestyle here affords me a level of comfort and safety that the average Vietnamese person doesn't have.

[00:54:26] And if there's anything that I've had difficulty with, it is just knowing that within a five minute drive where I live, I could see the complete opposite someone who's suffering really, really, really badly. And that that's had an effect on me. I've seen video letter, you might've as well. Some of those videos have folded around with like, there's this pregnant lady who died at a factory had been yelling and it was so cruelly, unceremonious.

[00:54:58] Her she was dealt with in her body was dealt with, and there was apparently a near riot. And the police managed to show up with the swiftness to put down the right. I'm like, well, why couldn't the ambulance show up just as quickly the day before and get her in the hospital. You know, seeing footage of people, essentially writing for food scene photographs of some of the field hospitals, where they've got thousands and thousands of people just convalescing in beds.

[00:55:25] That that's been difficult for me just to know that here I am in this really nice apart of the fem, anything they could possibly have. Other people who can't, haven't been able to get food delivered to their house yet I can go downstairs, cross the street over at the Lexington, a walk into, to Kmart and do groceries.

[00:55:43] You know, that as somebody who grew up in, in. Poor neighborhood to immigrant families. I'm sensitive to it because it's reflective of my upbringing and I know what it feels like to be on that side of things. So that to me honestly, has been the hardest in terms of just like surviving through a day and this, that, and the other, like I could go up on my roof and get sunshine by what I'm saying.

[00:56:08] Niall Mackay: No, it's good though, because we don't have that. Like, you're going to get people who have rooftop access. So our kidneys is pretty good, but let me, let me follow up on what you said there. If you've made me a bit emotional and mom was tearing up because I feel 100% the exact same as you. So yeah, I mean, it's challenges as like, as any kind of ex-pat has, but nothing that's that difficult.

[00:56:31] Same as you got full fridge, got water, go. My wife and my dog with Nissan, nothing really to complain about. And I've got 

[00:56:39] Hayden Lowry: the food we could leave. Like we all, like, I could think it's pretty fair to say that damn near half your friends have left already. Half of mine have already left already. How nice.

[00:56:51] Niall Mackay: Yeah. I've thought about that as well. How some people complain and then they just leave and it's kind of late. Well, at least you have that opportunity. A lot of other things, we don't have the opportunity to leave, but that's because we have a dog and blah, blah, blah. But so last Friday it was I woke up, got my computer at quite a lot of work to do.

[00:57:09] And I read this article on the guardian, in the UK about Vietnam and about how people want starving, not getting food. When I 

[00:57:19] Hayden Lowry: read that, I read that yesterday 

[00:57:22] Niall Mackay: a couple of weeks ago and I was in tears. Like literally in tears I am seeing as you are, this is not being the most difficult thing for me. And just like, what you said is, cause because we live in a similar area, knowing that those people just five minutes down the road, Not from like a super poor background.

[00:57:40] We always had food on the table, Bob, but identify, we ended up much money growing up as a family, but I don't know if that's, what's made me feel like this, but I can, I'm empathetic to that as well. So I was literally in tears. I was talking to, then my wife came out of my class and she's like, what's wrong?

[00:57:53] And the shooter, the article. And I feel so helpless as well. It's all lucky. So I immediately like stopped, just donate money to some of the charities that have already been donated to him. I was like, yeah, we need to give them more. And like just donated, like to three or four different organizations.

[00:58:09] Like I was like, that's all I can do. Like, I can give people food, I can kind of trust these organizations. So I did that made me feel a bit bound by pretty in and out tears old day. And then I'm trying not to tear up right now. Then in the afternoon, my best friend, I've known him since I was five years old.

[00:58:28] I was best man at his wedding. He messaged me and he's like, Hey, the beer and the way from the kid of open, just tested positive for. So I was just fucking balling and I was at T as I I've, I've 

[00:58:41] Hayden Lowry: had a friend here. I'm not going to name names. I'm not gonna call him out his name on, in public. Like he's a foreigner, who's married to a local lovely local lady and they've got some kids and he's got a family member back home living with him.

[00:58:58] And, you know, just, just taking that family member to go get their shot. But they ultimately didn't get, because some arbitrary Mandarin decided that we're not going to give any shots of the foreigners, despite the fact that we sent you your message to come here. We're not going to give you that. And they went home with the virus and their whole family got sick, you know?

[00:59:24] So I think at this point we've all got, we've all got experiences that hit close to home. So, yeah, I totally emulate. I they'd also does it help as well that, you know, we're dealing with that here and just trying to stay sane here and do what we can just kind of like find some balance in our lives.

[00:59:44] And then I dunno what it's like, where you're from or I'm from, we got people protesting in front of hospitals and blocking ambulance and getting in and out all because they don't want to take a vaccine that we overhear 

[00:59:59] Niall Mackay: would love to have. It's called labeling. I don't think that's too much of a problem in Scotland, but I obviously obviously see around the world, but it's like you said, you're going to find that balance.

[01:00:07] And even when a, so I did my comedy show on the weekend and it was my, my biggest show I've ever done. Headline act and 50 minutes of comedy with four people from around the world would choose this. And and I kind of finish with that and I was like an a, and it was true what I said. So, you know, it did that thing where you, you're going to Juliet, you know, comedians do, when you see a special that they bring the kind of atmosphere down and they get kind of serious, whatever the topic is, whether it's LGBT issues or race issues, whatever it is personal to them.

[01:00:37] So I brought it down on purpose and it was like, you know, it's a tough time. And, but this part is true as a comedian, I'm always putting out content on Facebook, trying to make people laugh. I'm putting on comedy shows and I've asked myself, like, should I be doing that? Like, should I be trying to make people laugh right now?

[01:00:52] And anytime I do put something on trying to make sure, like, I'm not being insensitive to the fact that people are dying and people are sick. So I try not to make complain about not getting stuff delivered and things like this. Like I actually make fun of the people like I did in the beginning. Who make a big deal about not being able to get a fucking kick for the pet delivered.

[01:01:13] Do you know what I mean? Like that there's balance to everything, but what I see is kind of come over. That's in the old though to a reason why I do continue to do it is because we do need to fade in balance and laugh. Don't enjoy it. And when I talked to my friend who runs one of these charities, he said, he's having trouble with his staff because they're obviously going through all the stresses that we are and the de-motivation of being locked up in and locked down and you know, all the normal stresses that, cause we're all going through a crazy, crazy time.

[01:01:41] But then because they're on the front lane and they're seeing and helping these people who are really struggling, they're not taking the time for themselves because they feel like they don't deserve it is out of it. Right. And he has to kind of tell them what we're talking about is like, no, just because they are having a hard time doesn't mean that you'll not having a help team as well, because that's what we're all going through.

[01:02:01] So, so he has the challenge of trying to keep his staff, like, you know, that balance, like know. 

[01:02:06] Hayden Lowry: Well, I would have to agree with you. I, I mean, I, I, I'm not a comedian. Although Jay king has tried like the Dixons and you have to, to get me up on stage, but what I have been able to do is, is make beef pack, Jamaican patties.

[01:02:23] And one of the reasons I also said that, you know, I haven't, it hasn't hit me as hard as other people up until director of 16 plus came and I was able to get to my kitchen. That was kind of like my space when things kind of got a bit much, at least I could go there and I can unload some of that negativity and I, and I have a positive way to channel it.

[01:02:49] Right. COVID has actually been, I hate, I hate to say it cause it sounds so relevant. COVID has actually been good for my business, 

[01:02:57] Niall Mackay: you know, not V2 as well. I've spent what my. To tun 7 million bikes into something I want it to be. So, yeah, I'm the same as well. Now I almost feel guilty about that. It's like, yeah, I've used this time to like, make my business yeah.

[01:03:13] Make something because that's the only thing that's kept me saying is because I realized that like, I just need to be busy. Like I just need to, in a minute, a week I'm doing something to the minute I go to sleep. Cause as soon as I stopped being busy is when I start to think about other people, how bad the situation is, even for myself.

[01:03:29] And then it's like, no, I just kind of keep all more kid 

[01:03:33] Hayden Lowry: and EV I totally see you, man. And just getting that feedback from people like I've lost count now of how many messages that I've gotten from folks saying like, thank you so much for these patties, you know, like COVID socks or the , but this, these patties, this box of patties has been some, you know, a little bit of joy and it takes them for something that.

[01:04:01] They can order and actually get, because all the other shops are closed, you know? And I just, by the virtue of selling frozen products is somehow under the radar. Like it, my product is allowed to be delivered. Right. And it's like, all right, it makes it all worthwhile. You know, that, that, yeah, I'm in sweating in the kitchen making this stuff.

[01:04:27] When I get one of those messages that makes it all worth while, and it's like, all right, at least there's some, this is doing somebody somewhere, some good. And it's getting them through their day. I mean, the money they pay me is nice. I'm not going to complain about that, but it's bigger than that. 

[01:04:42] It 

[01:04:42] Niall Mackay: really is.

[01:04:43] Absolutely. Yeah. This seems types of messages. The biggest one is, well, someone said, oh God, come into the quiz every Tuesday nights, like going to the pub and hanging out with my mates and. I get some messages, you know, you know, that's such a fun night, one of blah. Yeah. See bingo. Like some of my events are free, but some of them are paid for, so like I'm trying to make a living out of it, but that's not like the main thing of it.

[01:05:03] The main thing is, you know, bringing people together, the community providing entertainment, but some things it's hard to like, should I be doing this right now? Like, you know, like, no, 

[01:05:12] Hayden Lowry: you should be because here at what row in the not too distant future, as hard as this all feels right now that we're going through this and it seems never handy.

[01:05:22] We're seeing some, yeah, 

[01:05:24] Niall Mackay: no, no. I just said that before we started this, that I think we're past the worst of it. Now, the cases today went down dramatically. Did you see that? I haven't seen the numbers yet, like eight and a half thousand down from like a live in yesterday. Massive dramatic. 

[01:05:37] Hayden Lowry: That's fantastic.

[01:05:38] And what that means, isn't that when this thing's opened back up, we're going to need. You mean, we got to follow the breadcrumbs that you laid this entire time, because we're going to need those, those, those opportunities to get back together and laugh and enjoy each other's company and drink together.

[01:05:58] But that, that communication, that, that one-on-one connection that I think if nothing else COVID has really allowed us to really look at our lives and decide what's important, you know? So the fact that you're creating these opportunities for go for people to go and socialize each other with each other and healthy, positive ways, you're doing the right thing, bro.

[01:06:21] You totally. Cool. 

[01:06:23] Niall Mackay: Thank you. Yeah. And that's part of it as well as looking to the future because when we're building a community now, one way I've met friends, I've never met before, who have been doing like football quizzes. I've got all these friends. They were like through our shared love of soccer.

[01:06:37] Football. Never met them before. Can wait to meet up with them and have a beer with them. Even through the other quiz nights. I've got these friends there , I've never met before, things like that. So when we get over this, I'm excited, it's going to be fresh. It's going to be new. A lot of people have left, but that's what happens when your next pat, so we'll look, we'll finish up there.

[01:06:55] I'm not going to bother asking the last couple of questions I normally ask. Cause I don't feel it's the right tool and in our lake that we're finishing on this note, but I do want to finish tell people where they can buy your pies. Tell I wanted to ask as well, why you make Jamaican pies of here, Trinidadi and Canadian, but so explain quickly, very quickly where they can buy your pies and where they can find more information and what's next for you.

[01:07:19] Okay. 

[01:07:20] Hayden Lowry: I am Lee. I am a dual citizen of Canada and Trinidad, my mom and her infinite wisdom. Made sure that I had my TNT passport. As soon as I, as she was able to get me one, like that was the passport that I carried in my pocket everywhere in the world that I traveled until I had to come here. However, I was raised by a Jamaican, my stepfather who raised me, he's Jamaican.

[01:07:47] And my mom learned how to cook. It's where he cook Jamaican food and Jamaican culture in Toronto. It's quite Dom. It dominates the urban scene of, of Toronto. Yeah, so everybody in IntraLogic from Toronto as a matter what your ethnicity. You know that Bathurst, subway and warden, subway sells patties and people will get off the train going by one.

[01:08:17] They come back on the train and eat them right there. You Equitas, everybody went to school and had them sold at the cafeteria. You're that every corner shop. So they're just ubiquitous. They're part of the culinary lexicon. Oh my hometown. It's something that isn't being done here. In earnest few people, who've made some attempts, but they weren't concerted.

[01:08:40] And as someone who was hungry to share their culture rather than going through the expense of opening a Caribbean restaurant, which ultimately is a goal of mine, it just made a lot more sense to just take one item that has a lot of variety to it. A lot of flexibility and see what I can do with that.

[01:09:01] And it's worked out well. So we've got four varieties right now. We've got spicy, mild beef, veggie or vegan and curried goat. And I've got about another four or five variants on the horizon. I hopefully will be, I can't say which one it is I'm waffling between, which is the next one that I'm going to debut, but coming out of this this lockdown, I kind of want to like give the people with something new and I've imported the things that I need for it.

[01:09:29] So when it comes, it's going to be authentic and definitely something you're going to want to try. 

[01:09:35] Niall Mackay: Nice. So what's the name and where can they find you? And I will put the link in the show description. Okay. So 

[01:09:40] Hayden Lowry: the, the, everybody says Kerry bay which is the Vietnamese word for Caribbean. But the actual name of my company is in the Abbott NEB Caribbean kitchen.

[01:09:49] So you can find us on Instagram, all. And H a E P C a R IB. Yeah. That got a no accents or anything. And yeah, 

[01:10:03] Niall Mackay: I'll put that link below as well in the show notes in description. So we'll just click it. 

[01:10:09] Hayden Lowry: We're also on Facebook. And you can search us there at the 

[01:10:13] Niall Mackay: cafe. Thank you so so much. It's been so good.

[01:10:18] Hayden Lowry: Thank you for having me

[01:10:21] years. And my bakery name, we can do 

[01:10:25] Niall Mackay: this ticket and remember I have all the me four pies for tomorrow. The spicy Curry they got, they go, 

[01:10:33] Hayden Lowry: let end bro. Open yourself. And then I've only got the goat

[01:10:40] but at this day, by the end, got to get you. 

[01:10:42] Niall Mackay: I did eat it. DNA. Take care. Bye.