Immunologist And Prominent Vaccine Advocate In The Saigon Community (Live) | Dr Leigh Jones S7 E12

In this episode we are joined by Dr Leigh Jones, a fellow Scot who has lived in Vietnam since 2017 and Singapore before that since 2010. Dr Jones is a prominent vaccine advocate in the Saigon community and has a PhD in Immunology with years of experience in researching infectious disease.

Follow OUCRU -  website: http://www.oucru.org FB: https://www.facebook.com/OUCRUVN and Twitter: https://twitter.com/OUCRU_Vietnam 

Follow Leigh - Twitter: https://twitter.com/drleighannjones 

WHO COVID: https://covid19.who.int 

CDC COVID: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html 

NHS COVID: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/ 

Royal College of Ons and Gyn (for info on pregnancy related to COVID): https://www.rcog.org.uk/en/guidelines-research-services/coronavirus-covid-19-pregnancy-and-womens-health/covid-19-vaccines-and-pregnancy/covid-19-vaccines-pregnancy-and-fertility/ 

British Society for Immunology: https://www.immunology.org/coronavirus 

Health Feedback Initiative for fact checking: https://healthfeedback.org 

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Transcript

Niall Mackay: 0:15

Thank you for listening to Seven Million Bikes a Vietnam podcast This is an extra special live episode We share the stories of people with a love for Vietnam My name is Niall Mackay and I'm your I've lived in Vietnam since 2016 and first started this podcast and know more about the interesting people that lived in Saigon A crazy bustling energetic city as they show has grown over the years We now talk to people from Saigon and all over the world who have a Vietnam story And this episode we are joined by Dr Lee Jones a fellow Scott who has lived in Vietnam since 2017 and Singapore before that since 2010 Dr Jones is a prominent vaccine advocate in the Saigon community and has a PhD in immunology with years of experience in researching infectious diseases Thank you very much for joining us today Dr Joe

Leigh Jones: 1:15

Lovely to have me on Thank you so much for inviting me

Niall Mackay: 1:19

You are very very welcome now obviously so elephant in the room if you can call that an elephant or both from Glasgow and I've already had a comment from my wife that I'm already sounding more Scottish and it is impossible not to do it so I thought we'd start I don't know if you get this I imagine that you do so being Scottish overseas I've not lived actually in Scotland since 2001 I've lived all over the world And during that time I meet two different types of people often at the same time or one after the other one of them will say to me oh you're from Scotland Or you've got such a strong accent and I'll be like really do it And then I'll meet the next person They'll be like oh you're from Scotland You got a really soft accent I can understand everything you're saying I'm like we'll tell that to the last person Do you get a similar thing as well

Leigh Jones: 2:12

Yeah it's interesting because I mean my accent as yours as well have clearly sort of softens the longer you've been away a little bit longer than me the whole most people from Asia when they first hear my accent kind of go Ooh cause it's saying mostly they roll with it and it's and it just needs their ear in place But most people that make comments are other Europeans and Americans Australians Those are the ones that tend to get but more either you know your accent really strong like you say or maybe someone that spent time in Scotland has said oh like I actually understand you And I never know how to deal with that Like Part of me is actually the biggest part I think a lot of the time it's not a fast accent People need to speak up they're listening That's what I always say Listen listen faster when asked me to speak slower but obviously naturally the longer you're away Sometimes And by the time I go home this year you know I'm sure you're the same that it can get stronger I don't mean those questions so much What I don't like is when someone imitates my accent So for the love of God anyone on this podcast if you think it's funny to imitate someone's accent I got into you prepared to old before and your accent is garbage So don't

Niall Mackay: 3:35

So a couple of things to pick up on that So first of all I didn't want to pick on one set of people but let's be honest It's mostly Americans that see that and I have lived in America and so we'll often be Americans that like oh my God your accent is so strong and I will normally follow up with have you ever been to Now even if it's Australian Kiwi American if they tell me that my accent is strong I almost know that they have never been to Scotland and they will not be like oh you know I've never been in trouble again Or my my accent is not strong If they say to me oh you've got a really soft accent I can understand you I'll be like have you been to scald And they'd be like yeah Hey Yeah When I was there I couldn't understand a thing that anybody said And I'm like okay so that's not That's normally the main difference in terms of imitating you're totally right So when I first left Scotland I went to work in a summer camp in America And my superior at the time would always imitate what I said to him And it got to the point where I'd be trying to tell him something serious Like you know this camp was being bullied and he'd be like oh this camp has been bullied And I'd be like no like Scott like yeah So eventually it got to the point where I was Can you stop that Like it's just really annoying I'm trying to tell you about something serious And he was so nice He was like so apologetic He's like you know I sorry I just I really love your accent and I'm trying to do it And as he said that I was like you know what there's a Swedish guy here I'm friends with And he says something And then I met his like Swedish accent So we all do it but it does get when he was doing it like all the time And it's like okay now you need to stop

Leigh Jones: 5:16

Yeah it's just a bug bear of mine And I'm like stop

Niall Mackay: 5:19

Yeah

Leigh Jones: 5:19

Like especially when you just meet someone when you're friends with someone you get you totally get that allowance that you can you know I do my friends accents and second Ford all the same They do mean bites me that Spain knew about No when I just meet you can you just can you just not

Niall Mackay: 5:35

Yeah the thing is as well as it usually sevens Indian as well more than anything

Leigh Jones: 5:45

or anything but Scottish or just really like imitating stretch purely

Niall Mackay: 5:52

Well Shrek is pretty good too Cause he might see this is what I tell people make miles is the only person I knew of that can actually do a good Scottish accent but that's because his parents were Scottish So he grew up with it So he's just imitating his parents It's not like he's just making it up but this is what I had an idea for the start of the podcast Right Which is an absolutely terrible idea So before I tell you that But anyone who's listening to this podcast not live there is a button that you can skip ahead fare seconds And if you want to just keep skipping that button ahead until we finish this then that's absolutely fine So what I want us to do is again addressing the elephant in the room Let's just talk normal Like I'm going to talk in my normal score I've been away for about 20 years But even as my wife just picked out a notice as soon as I talked to another Scottish person they comes back immediately And over the years I often get people who say to me let us hear your real Scottish accent And I can't do it Like when I'm around other people I've been away for so long I can't just turn the on but as soon as I'm with another Scottish man It comes back immediately So how do you let's just we're going to go food Scottish and I thought the way to get into it is we're going to bring up So we said there were both Scottish well actually not just both Scottish world-class region which is its own type of Scottishness So what I thought we could do is educate anyone That's listening to podcast listeners about some blue Scottish words because Now I even I've been together for 10 years and still nearly every week I just randomly think of a world that comes from my childhood and I see it And then she's like what does that mean And I'm like now tell you what I found I'll remember this is In relation to my JLC So I'm wearing if anyone is watching them will be on YouTube as well This is one of the most hideous disgusting soccer jerseys Sorry See I lived in America I call it soccer soccer football jerseys in the world but this is from Lee and L's team Can I call you Lee or Dr Jones What would you prefer We can call you Lee Okay This is our football team Guys were angels and it's the most hideous top ever but a warmup in honor of Lee tonight I was texting my best friend back home the other day I says no mommy is a pure

Leigh Jones: 8:17

Oh yeah

Niall Mackay: 8:18

And he responded I have not had that since high school When I was like I don't think I've used it since high school which is rent like when I'm taught even by text message When I'm talking to my Scottish friends These random Scottish words I was like me it's a pure win So now that was my most recent one The other one is a personal favorite is at pure both in

Leigh Jones: 8:40

Rican They siphons get though That's a good one

Niall Mackay: 8:44

it's that has pure power And you've got to put pure before If you're from Glasgow it has to have pure before

Leigh Jones: 8:51

at a swear word So we'll probably go with pure that's

Niall Mackay: 8:54

we will which I would normally try and avoid this way Well so we will can we can continue on a conversation but just drop any pretenses And I'm even I'm trying hard now to try and speak in a Scottish accent because it is difficult Cause I'm just especially doing a podcast And I do even know voiceover work and things like this Like I have to speak so Americanized you know what I mean

Leigh Jones: 9:18

I do know what you mean Well I have I do I'm cheating with so yes I know exactly what you mean It's video where

Niall Mackay: 9:29

use Still speaking posh Come on You gotta drop that portioning So you gotta you gotta sound pure Glaswegian

Leigh Jones: 9:35

we need to talk about something that's more Glaswegian then So we need to talk about football and Gordon

Niall Mackay: 9:40

talk about football while I'm having a beer We don't normally as I told you before the podcast I don't normally drink in podcasts because I'll lose my track I may end and things like this but with the live podcast I change it up a wee bit So normally when I'm doing when I'm doing the podcast we smiley I have a pure

Leigh Jones: 9:58

You don't go that far

Niall Mackay: 10:00

let's see let's see by the end of the podcast depends how long we talk for you know what make it a bit Steven but yeah I do enjoy our east valley every now and again I

Leigh Jones: 10:09

Yeah well that's what you want That makes that weekend last got a hard week at work

Niall Mackay: 10:19

Make it certainly in the nines or something like that Always Grafton Grafton Didn't the nines I got up on the weekend with some other with some other pure pure classical rubs You can think of because that's what I said Even being free Glasgow Right We use different worlds like feeding Like when I read transport and they use the web and branch all the time like oh he's a

Leigh Jones: 10:42

I love the bar

Niall Mackay: 10:43

I had to look her up I was I didn't know what it meant I was I'm from God I'm free Glasgow And I don't know what ratch means So I had to look her up What have we even in Glasgow between north and south I knew it was when I went to uni there was a little bit of a difference like I'm from the Northeast high school and then at friends for the south And so they would just use little words and I was like guys this should be a bit different to Bishop Briggs

Leigh Jones: 11:06

I remember just talking to that Colin's done Bali Bali and I'm from So Is that we have that we've we've got a cross cultural manage it's like Romeo and Juliet that went to that went to Catholic school and supports had Rangers that went to throw distance skill And you

Niall Mackay: 11:36

I motive multi denominational school It was it wasn't a

Leigh Jones: 11:40

you could call it nondenominational

Niall Mackay: 11:43

was already that No no there's no such thing as a Protestant school It's just the Catholics that separate themselves And we went to a non-denominational school

Leigh Jones: 11:52

We have these discussions all Italian by the way both completely atheist So

Niall Mackay: 11:58

Well me too

Leigh Jones: 11:59

really I

Niall Mackay: 11:59

well Yeah

Leigh Jones: 12:00

really don't want to get into religion as that as basketball but as part of you know as growing up and you know the the char and your skill and you know it's it's The way some of it was but I but going back to both the Blake it's one of my faith

Niall Mackay: 12:21

pure Everything has to have pure before it

Leigh Jones: 12:24

pure pure glee he's just he's just a wallop

Niall Mackay: 12:34

That's a good one though I doubt it's going to be pure before it's going to be pure as Zuma

Leigh Jones: 12:43

And that was before we had soon

Niall Mackay: 12:44

I don't know I've never had that one Maybe I see all different by region and things like that or even tone we'll let let's wind it back a bit because no of lost anyone who's listening If they've skipped forward about five times and they're like I still can understand what they're saying but this is a good example of how you we are I am I can feel myself speeding up so much Do you know the funniest thing was last time I went back to Scotland Because I'm so used to speaking slowly and properly in the nuncio getting my words in pronouncing everything which I had to lay him going to America was kind of where our lamb to do that Because the example I always tell people was when I was in America I said to this guy or was that your toe And he was like what How's that is that you'll tow me And he's like is that is that my turtle And that's a pick up and be like is this your total And he's like oh towel And I always remember that moment of being like oh he fucking pronouns he's at differently to me Like he's I then that's when I heard that I was like I just said toe said towel he pronounced those last two lenses And I'm like in Glasgow if you go to someone's at your toe it'd be is that your toe They'd be like oh that's my toe Me I chills You know So that was when I started to realize I'm not pronouncing these Properly essentially I'm not seeing all the voles And even when I went to university and even though I'm from spam valley which for anyone listening is I lived in a posh area but my family had no money is essentially what spam valley means So we had to eat spam for dinner which is not entirely true but it's not far from the truth

Leigh Jones: 14:32

Here but that doesn't even work

Niall Mackay: 14:35

in Vietnam I didn't know I don't I don't eat spam So I couldn't tell you the price know

Leigh Jones: 14:40

too expensive

Niall Mackay: 14:42

But you never believe this so I'm not I'm from I don't even know if you call them working class Like I'm not working down in the mains that they're all in teachers policemen supermarkets you know So the not a blue white collar blue collar Do you call it the American term The not like blue collar but they're also not like white collar I guess somewhere in between So but my point is I didn't come from a posh family but I also didn't come from I counsel family you know what I mean To try and think of the way to put it But when I went to university right I had people in my course from Glasgow tell me that I had the strongest Scottish accent or Glaswegian accent they'd ever had

Leigh Jones: 15:24

Did you go to the university of Glasgow

Niall Mackay: 15:27

I mean this same as you Yeah I went to strike I know So so these people they were from like Pawlak and from clocks then and from the south of Glasgow which I wasn't very familiar with and they I swear I remember it my first year You knew they will you know you got the strongest Glaswegian accent Even be this is even before it left to go to America was I don't understand that because my family well not my fucking pure Ned's man Let Timmy that's our Scottish accent like a pure Glaswegian accent all these pamphlets it comfy Portugal and belonging and all that adds up your Glasgow

Leigh Jones: 15:59

Lord I heard that name and has not heard that place

Niall Mackay: 16:03

Cause I lived in Bishop Briggs We had to get in the bus to town You had to go through all the council areas So we would go through and spring bond and and all of these kind of like rough areas And so my school was in that area where it would be a mixture of the can of spam valley Porsche kids But the people that lived in Bishop Briggs event Paul all the parents had like they were all mechanics You know they went like doctors and law and didn't know anyone whose dad was a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer like that You know they were all pretty working class jobs but then at my school also had was in the catchment area that we had the rough kids from the rough areas The council areas come as well to eat a big so that's why I was really confused when I went to university and they were like oh you got a really strong accent I was like really awfully your school must have been way posher than mine then

Leigh Jones: 16:57

You must've been a weird class because I know we spoke about you know wouldn't start fades and stuff and and we both said science degrees Right You did sports science where you up at Jordan Hall

Niall Mackay: 17:08

Yeah it was at Joelton

Leigh Jones: 17:10

Ah okay Maybe maybe that's not And is sort of bio science campus and this that you said I mean mommy it's most of them were from the safe side actually some of

Niall Mackay: 17:22

Oh really

Leigh Jones: 17:26

Yeah They were mainly from the safe side but the nicer parts of the safe side And I was commended from Cumbernauld on the bus every day

Niall Mackay: 17:32

Yeah So I mean I was pretty similar I was getting the bus in from from Vizio Briggs and I had to take like two buses in a 20 minute walk and they were all pretty like not again none of them was super rich but they were all kind of came from Clarus and then from nice families and things like this But th that shocked me And then she'll my accent has a I take a lot of pride when when somebody tells me oh you've got a really nice accent I can understand you And I often get confused by Edinburgh which most Glaswegians would be horrified that I actually really like that when someone thinks I'm from Edinburgh I'm like yeah no thank you You know

Leigh Jones: 18:09

And the funny thing is if he actually went to EDS and done lessons to pro like you know prof par like counseling and he would be like well that's the thing there's this assumption isn't it That you were dumb dumb means Porsche and it's And it's I only a fear when it just means that when you go to the city center or you hear far more definite accents because as more of a tutus In Glasgow in terms of this the you center So you are seat heating that sort of noting port lots of different accents but in actual fact if you were to go out to keep at or something like that and you're going to hear like a strong on ed and blacks and that most people would be utterly baffled by and you hear people watching Trainspotting with the subtitles on you know

Niall Mackay: 18:54

Oh I mean my

Leigh Jones: 18:55

clearly

Niall Mackay: 18:55

said someday it was on like absolutely It's a it's definitely a challenge but what I've realized over the years so accents are one and this may be an outlandish statement but I don't think it is the socioeconomic right So if you're from Numata which country or which city you're from in the world if you are from a higher socioeconomic status you have a nicer maybe not nicer but I think NAISA more understandable accent If you're from a lower socio economic status your accent is normally refer a more regional more difficult to understand and that even applies like my wife's Texas She was probably laughing I can't see you but she doesn't have that Texas twang And from when we first met and she still gets it from people like you're disappointed like oh you're not from y'all not from around here or whatever that kind of whatever that terrible Twain is that I just did because she's like I'm from the city I'm from Dallas Like I'm not from the countryside I'm not like a country bumpkin like And even if you're from Yorkshire you know or Birmingham or wherever you are if you're if you've got a really strong regional accent then it's going to be it's going to have a thicker accent

Leigh Jones: 20:05

I love accents So I'm kinda like I have mates that have got where probably they would argue so that they're arming accents disappeared in and you know people from you know Manchester and I think it's great And in Vietnam they have those you know Really strong regional accents as well And I just find that fascinating I think it's really nice to have a little bit of a badge of where you're from and I kind of hope that I've not lost my accent too much That would actually make me quite sad You know as much as I

Niall Mackay: 20:35

worry You haven't

Leigh Jones: 20:37

get to know that's good to know

Niall Mackay: 20:39

obviously as I said my wife loves it when I talk about her all the time and she's right here But first time we met you last week in union Jackson She's obviously very attuned to the Scottish accent after 10 years in being home And she's like she's not lost her accent is the first thing she said

Leigh Jones: 20:53

You wouldn't you wouldn't agree with that He came and met my family I'm sure you'd be like oh my Lord light You know where they are They've got far strong accent than I do but it's brilliant And but it's not even been since leaving Scotland that you have to start to think about how you're turning some words and slow and donors And in science we have to present to international audiences all the time So it's not like you know I just left Scotland and then had to think about it I had to think about it Anyway I had to think about it when I was going to You know give a presentation in UDA or the us or you know so I mean it's as something you think of that we're regularly here but it's kind of already in near the minute that you're in a working vitamin or certainly and they invite them in that I work in but it came to become second nature So I don't know I mean maybe yeah I worked in aids for years as well So that may be it's affected that somewhat as

Niall Mackay: 21:50

Well when I heard you do that talk recently that you did with and again my wife and I were watching it together and we both looked at each other and just laughed when you said are the new virion variant Now any any world any world with an R in the middle as a Scottish person you're fucked So variant

Leigh Jones: 22:12

I love hole I love a strong rule of an R and the thing is it's not just spots that rule it out as the Dutch debt you know Indians do it You know maybe she'd be proud of that Rolling out Marta There's been you

Niall Mackay: 22:25

And I've had that so many times over the CAC The one I get is a squirmy bottoms

Leigh Jones: 22:31

Swami worms

Niall Mackay: 22:32

It's called me worms or who's the one Even my sister messaged me this one the other day proper book

Leigh Jones: 22:43

Paul Bartlett alarm Yeah Yeah That's amazing

Niall Mackay: 22:46

can't see that she's Scottish and we were on a group chat and she just couldn't see it blah blah blah But God alone calling that's

Leigh Jones: 22:54

But then Everyone has those phrases that no matter where they're from they asked for like I've got mates in Northern Ireland and there when I see power shower

Niall Mackay: 23:06

How now Brown cow

Leigh Jones: 23:09

Yeah exactly So I think we all sort of have those technical words or phrases that really brings the accent and showcases it to its strongest

Niall Mackay: 23:21

So let's then talk about to me and you we both studied at Strathclyde We for all we know we've never met We could've met one doc We re graduated a year apart It's probably very likely Walk past

Leigh Jones: 23:35

into each other are

Niall Mackay: 23:36

or yeah Who knows Who knows but do we graduate in similar times So you studied what was your undergraduate

Leigh Jones: 23:44

my undergraduate was major biology and immunology So it was a joint

Niall Mackay: 23:50

Oh sure Off shore and all So

Leigh Jones: 23:53

Pages cause it didn't join honors I did get accepted to glass little but I went to see join and the only dead single owners at the time So yeah there you go

Niall Mackay: 24:02

So you so then you been you were in Singapore then 2000 and since 2010 So give us a bit of a background then So how did you go from Strathclyde university best university in the world I don't know if it is I'm just saying that Cause I went there

Leigh Jones: 24:13

not but as

Niall Mackay: 24:14

now It's a good one That is a good one though right It is one of the top ones so yeah How did tell us your story how you ended up in via

Leigh Jones: 24:22

Yeah So I I did my undergraduate and I loved science And so during the last year one of my lectures approached me and said that they had their student check over the summer to work in a lab and fully funded So I would get paid to basically come in and do experiments and be like a room scientist rather than you cutting up a sheep's lung and listening to lectures So I kind of find SEPA idea and you know took it and run with it And you know it's a great time in the lobby I was working on pad acetic disease called toxoplasma which many people wouldn't have heard of but

Niall Mackay: 24:56

It's from transport And is it not

Leigh Jones: 24:58

that's the one I was going to say there's that chain spot in length So if anyone's in chain sporting and remembers that told me after he bought

Niall Mackay: 25:08

right

Leigh Jones: 25:09

that straight he died of toxoplasmosis So I worked on that Actually on DNA vaccination for toxoplasmosis which sort of brings us nicely onto wherever that came from where we're at now with vaccines by yes I worked on that had a great time over the summer and my supervisors said you know would you be in chased in doing a PhD And I thought yeah that sounds good Cause then I don't need to start working straight away and I can continue being a

Niall Mackay: 25:34

It wasn't a plan

Leigh Jones: 25:36

It was it was something that I hadn't really thought about it strongly until the option was And was lucky enough to get a quite quite good scholarship So I got Carnegie scholarships so that funded me for three years And yeah I had a great 10 lab kept working on toxoplasma but licking out hormones without getting too sciency can be a problem for pregnant ladies if they get it from first time when they're pregnant So it can be quite a nasty infection that crosses across into the placenta So I was looking at the hormone effects or sorry pregnancy associated hormones gone Toxoplasma going down did that for three years and actually what I'm using as a balance my laptop is my PhD thesis So I can maybe quickly show you

Niall Mackay: 26:31

Wow You wrote that

Leigh Jones: 26:34

We can't really see it with the background what was my life for two years so yeah I did that and then I decided to stick a change from that particular subject And I moved costs across to Edinburgh and I worked at the spot to shag coach with For three years on worm infections which was a lot of fun because so I did that in a small animal model but it also related to some agricultural work So I got to play the sheep in a field So it was quite good fun being a bit of a tiny Yeah Yeah you know dealing with sheep in a field of my leopard print Whaleys my big sunnies on you know the young farmers hated me They were like Hey Tony had a great time It was great So it was there for Take a short break to work in scientific writing for liars That was probably the only time I was ever properly in a corporate and vitamin So helping write up and articles and create communication to tedium spark farm on things Fetty short And then moved to Singapore in 2010 took up a job and a really good well run well funded Singaporean government laboratory So it's like walking from these dodgy no offense to the university university that I worked in for years I loved it but really old skill lab you know a little bit down below And then what was late working in a spaceship is the base in Eastern Singapore Like these machines just incredible had a great time there first in a lab working on immunology and the guts So protect you know the immune responses that happen in your gut are really interesting So worked on that for about four years four and a half Then decided I was kind of fed up doing basic science and wanted to do something more flexible in humans and moved to a big lab that focused on everything immunology but helping a with clinical trials um after my first lab in Singapore I moved to a slightly different lab that was more focused on human and studies So more clinical studies some work on some clinical trials and influenza vaccination some trials on cancer immunotherapy And what else did I do Oh I'd done a really fun project with Proctor and gamble and here biology which was a lot of fun

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 29:03

I go to school at Cincinnati and all the big bags over there and yeah it was great and I worked there for a number of years and then sort of personal life fees ends and a number of things I decided it was time to move on from Singapore And that tame or crew was well actually winds that but reason I found out about all crude and other Scottish connection I was drinking in the sports bar entailed in industry too I'm sure you'll be a weight off watching football as you do that bar and started chatting with this Scottish guy that and my partner knew he played football with him for awhile and his dad was there and his dad is you know little bit of an older guy and she wouldn't mind me saying they should really interesting guy and we worked out and about you know what I would want to do if I came over here to live Cause at the time I was commuting back and forth forward to see my partner from S from Singapore And he said what do you do And I said well I'm an immunologist by chase research scientist And he said My thought weird thing to say fucking responds right Well again it's not quite Glaswegians Campbell when he's a bit of a legend here and he's been with old crew pretty much since the start And he is the head of maitre biology He only just retired this year getting locked though I swear he retired so he didn't need to do a going away party I think he the whole thing inappropriate grumpy score messing in the office You know when you walk past on someone and say all right how are you But I love it's just it's just so Scottish It was variant anyway he introduced me to the guys or crew at the Oxford university clinical research unit where I know work and I've worked there since 2017 and an opportunity came up as head of training at the And time I considered taking you know I was I enjoyed the lab but I felt for T And I've I've played golf And I like working with people when I thought I was kind of not using my we'll call them communication skills Let's go with that I didn't think I was using them enough And I would really like to have a sort of sideways move still working signs but doing something that defin So I took role that And 2017 is part-time no that's no blossoms into a filter nor between or crew here in Vietnam also have a site in Indonesia and then necessar unit in contacts me and said Hey we'd love it If you could do the same thing for us So as of next month I will be starting a slightly new Fancy new title of regional academic training leader for all crew and mortar but someone has kindly pointed out That means I'm the right leader So I'm going to rename myself as the paper of PhD students because I think that's but yeah that's why I'm here And most of what I do know is managing a huge PhD program across Southeast Asia We have just under a hundred students clinicians Pharmacists vets social scientists it And they're all doing amazing work on a number of different infectious diseases All of them working on infectious diseases of relevance to the regions or at the moment there's a lot of COVID work but we also have dangit tuberculosis and malaria TB So I said to their system I HIV and I never know if you go to that messenger plate and I'm sure I've missed out lots but we are definitely search teams They're doing amazing things and it's it really has it's cracking place to work and the Thailand unit's amazing as well So

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 32:49

Awesome

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 32:50

yeah Yeah And we laugh I've done a funnel I cannot switch varsity contract That's a lady I'm 40 but someone from apron ho hi stew which is no knock down a lot of fun facts even how high school was the high skill and Greg and he's ghetto So if you don't remember that that's where that was filmed but now you know laundry access

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 33:14

even a bit younger than me I only just know that movie anyone who's not from Scotland and listening to this has no idea what the fuck Gregory gurus is And you don't even need to go find out It's not even worth to go and find out

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 33:26

It's like the automatic empire existed It was the original coming of age of story of a really geeky skinny young Scottish guy But it's yeah I mean it's what sort of the American pie or the future coming of age movies I like

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 33:42

Right And not as like yeah

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 33:45

It was more than it's really up It does open with a scene of them looking at a nurse's college and a and a woman's taking our top off So it's not that innocent

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 33:54

haven't I have I don't even know if I have seen it and if I have it would have been a very very very long time ago but yeah I guess it's probably pretty difficult to find a movie from back then That's not a bit repeat and creepy and things like that So

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 34:08

But one of the one of the courts from there from the movie as women we're not designed to play football We are designed to play football our tent somewhere else So there you go That football in Scotland it's the best combination

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 34:23

Nope I wanted to just go back to the beginning of what you just said everything you said that is unbelievable and I want to delve into it more And so I don't want to detract from all that amazingness but Man I do The Scottish accent makes me laugh as someone from Scotland Right you never believe it Like even when I talk to my mum I just started laughing sometimes And I think it's because my wife is American so I'm really attuned to it And the one of the first said was we do experiments and I just nearly pissed myself laughing any world with our in the middle of a Scottish person It's just it just makes me laugh So

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 35:03

I'm glad that we were bringing each other joy with something that

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 35:09

Experiments well this is another thing we have in connection So this is we've only just met each other recently and so w we are both Rangers fans We both studied at the university of Australia Clade I actually worked a an immunotherapy cancer resale slab in using

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 35:25

would be both There

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 35:26

So my background is in fundraising for not-for-profits and charities And I go a job in New Zealand You may or may not have heard of It's a very small independent research Institute called the Malagan Institute of research Elko whole focus is on immunotherapy which so at the time I knew nothing about and I was approached for this job again on the fundraising I accepted the job And so I got to lay on all immunotherapy and it was just so fascinating Cause you know I'm not a scientist that Even close but I'm also not an idiot So I was able to like understand the concepts cause it's through because I was on the fundraising team and I'm basically asking people for money I had to understand the signs to be able to cause the thing is as well you can as you probably know it's different to grant where you have to in it a scientific way I have to explain it to the lay person on an emotional level why you should support So you're not explaining about

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 36:25

Challenge like publican and things You need to public engagement as valid chain to explain quite complex and topics and issues and make them accessible but actually meet

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 36:36

Yeah

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 36:37

them is a real it's a scale you know

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 36:41

really proud of myself because it is yeah Is a skill in itself to understand like what the flow cytometry machine did

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 36:53

For

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 36:53

Yeah right If we haven't lost half the audience with no lost them already know we're getting into flow cytometry I will make sure to send this to the team the people I'm still friends with and them Elliot Institute But yeah So I had to understand what the flow cytometry machine And but then also be able to take I would do tools of the Institute for potential donors and corporate sponsors and trying to be able to explain that in a way that is understandable and whatnot but I found it I found it social fascinating and really really interesting And it actually brings us to something that we're obviously going to talk about And and we we talked about this before so I done I've just done a podcast recently with the company And I'm starting to be more vocal in the fact that I used to be a massive conspiracy theorist about 10 years ago and deep deep down the rabbit hole And at the point where I got this job at the Malyguin Institute I was coming out the rabbit hole but I was still had there I was still a bit skeptical And for me I would I don't know if I would say it was an anti-vaxxer but I was definitely had anti-vax sentiments on one YouTube video I can look back now and be like yeah it was literally like one YouTube video that I didn't fact check I didn't see who made it I didn't like look into this YouTube video told me there was mercury in the vaccines and then that was it All right We're not getting that's it done Right and I remember sitting down with this scientist Dr Lindsay Ansleigh who's just an incredible credible lady trying to cure brain cancer through immunology and immunotherapy and I was trying to understand more about the Institute and I didn't want to you know come in I don't accepted the job and even accepting the job I have had to discuss it with my wife and I'm like they do like you know vaccine therapy and immunotherapy And you know I don't know if I agree with that I don't know if I do it but you know it was kind of like I'm not just going to take a job if I if I disagree with it but I looked into so I looked into and I was like you know it's fine So anyway one of my first meetings with I definitely wasn't like well you know I don't believe in this but I I remember seeing something along the lines of all you know you hear a lot about this or you know people you hear that people see this and whatnot And I can't even remember what it was exactly that she said but she just shot it down So like effortlessly they literally just made me do a 180 Like they didn't and like oh yeah yeah of course And We can get into the whole conspiracy say the things but one of the things that people always talk about is you know big pharma and they're all connected and they're all there The other one that when I did the podcast recently with Connor Kaley he'd never heard of the thing that like cancer is that big pharmaceutical company don't want to cure cancer because there's more money in and treating cancer than curing it And he'd never heard of this And I was like oh yeah no that that's like That was a thing 10 years ago And I'm sure it's still a thing today but then going to work at as independent research in situations like this obviously not a thing This is this like little Institute all the way in New Zealand that is literally they'd cured skin cancers immunotherapy treatment done clinical They've got up to phase trials This girl Dr Insulet had taught me about how they basically cured brain cancer inmates which is obviously not The same as phase one or whatever but in Italy in the lab they've been able to cure brain cancer using immunotherapy And so that just was kind of like as you probably are aware that are once you start to chip away at these conspiracy theories ones it's like a what's the like a house of cards ones One of them comes away then everything falls away as well

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 40:40

You doctrine says that you're you know you were going to work in a place where we're doing that at VD And it's not like I think everybody or if you're sort of prunes that banking and creating that that culminated me like I spent farm on Bobo and whatever you want to call Misunderstanding like how many people are involved in research water Wade at so

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 41:05

Yeah

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 41:05

and trying to do the right thing and to contribute to knowledge and to make a real difference to sort of the minute you you know you you move into that conspiracy and somebody described it like vesting And I thought it was really funny because You know a lot of boxes that you know I was thinking about as well as think that there's a global conspiracy and that everyone is one thing shows that that person has never tried to project manage a team 20 people And I'm like absolutely spot on Like how can you possibly think that something That deep and everyone is there trying to the wrong thing For what reason For what purpose You know what I mean get how people get to there And I a lot of the time it's Like they're frightened the are they're genuinely frightened that there's something that's so complex that we can't get their head around it So to simplify and to having this body that's one thing that it all And that's why this is happening so much easier to hold onto because there's a simple answer and it's saying correct but it just does get them something to And get through uncertainty because it's something that they can see This is why this is the reason I do get that And I understand that particularly right now in the S frightening what's going on and are upset and stressed about it and fed up And you can explain all this away with one thing then you can understand how that could be quite seductive

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 42:43

Yeah well for me as well Yeah So it's it's all of that and it's the way it was As I tried to understand Why are you even with down that rabbit hole and you start to learn about it which you basically explained So I'm not trying to mansplain and just explaining the way that I was that I understood it was life is chaotic and complex And as human beings we are this is really new to us that like social media worldwide travel and interconnected global planet we're used to living in our own little village And so it's really really difficult to to to live in that world because what we are used to is finding narratives So we're used to finding easy narratives to explain our world And as you mentioned you're an atheist me too So we create God and we create all these structures that explain why it rains and why those lightening and blah blah blah all that stuff Right So now suddenly we have the internet and this global world and we're like whoa we can understand this So we need a narrative And then unfortunately these narratives come from And so I fully bought into it big pharma The media is all loaned blah blah blah blah blah And as I've chipped away at it And one of my friends who have mentioned a couple of times recently Chris he similar to what you said He said the exact same thing and I'll never forget I remember it was a conspiracy post and he's like I've worked in government my whole life You cannot get two teams to talk to each other that work in the same office How in the hell would you make this a global conspiracy And that's when we I've done a joke about it recently And one of the kind of the joke is how would get like people from cultures different backgrounds different races different religions cultures that don't get on So like China Vietnam Russia America the UK everyone else And they all agree on this one thing they all agreed together We're going to create this global conspiracy And so this is what I talked about on this last podcast I just did When you start to read How big a task It would be to prove this off It becomes so unrealistic that it's just not

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 44:58

Yeah I mean it's Yeah I do Like I said I understand how that can happen and sadly I kind of have a real live engagement and I came down and Patty Joel people sit sort of do this but and maybe you would disagree as being someone that was down that rabbit hole because clearly it worked for you but you had to move to an Institute that works in science to set rules that I won't spend time to people who Half have questions And when answers I don't want into the whole jacking off and just asking no you're not because you're not

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 45:35

Yeah

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 45:37

want to go round and that's magical medical rounds and and you know constantly change topic and not address when evidence is on the table And I can be such a brain drain So I'd wreck and at the start you know what started upon them I mean the last two years as being I didn't ever think I was going to get someone Lehman spleen hair community to me and then go why is it your qualifications And again well actually it's immunology Please tell me again Dave at the end of the bar with the pain how you know this better I didn't ever think that what's happened in a way it's to see people science literacy goal And I think that's been a huge benefit You know people are starting to understand you know people are understanding more about immunology infectious disease public health all of these things that you protect me in a Western and vitamin infectious disease is something that we probably didn't have to deal with as much in dead tick for granted we had as I hear there is far more of a respect for dealing with infectious disease and the importance of you know fating things like SARS when it came may and bird flu and and all of these diseases that we didn't really see in the west to the same extent it was all So we'd and on Cancer diabetes all of the diseases that are very at holding to us That's why that's why your family are getting sick et cetera So it's been nice to to see people's understanding of infectious disease grew up at but then on the flip side of that having people hearing engaging in conversation but not for the right they're not really doing it for any reason other than to Sorry going to their what'll pill and and try and drag you in And I have disengaged with a number of people because it's not a discussion that is ever going to be useful and it's never going to go anywhere And it's it's not fun for me as mentally draining and they're not going to be you're not going to get anything from it for the most part So I've tended to focus more on Speaking to people who genuinely just wanted some time with someone who had debt about grains and that area even though I'm not a COVID expert that is absolutely not what I am I've never worked in Corvettes or crude or doing a lot of work in corporate I haven't But having that understanding of vaccination and you Knology how we fate infectious disease Breaking it down into simple bait sized chunks and understandable and trying to explain what we do know what we don't know and trying to be honest about what evidence is there and trying to explain vest analysis a little bit better because I think that's part of the Understanding of rest and and that has been a huge and a lot of thinking that has caused a lot of hesitancy that and just lack of information and misinformation on social media which is obviously huge issue right now I guess all you can do or I felt I could do is just take the time to speak to people where they can and it's It's a very small part of you know if anyone can if anyone that's any backgrounds can do that then I think it's helping know not not every GP or that you can One to that that student vaccinations all D is going to have the time to set up Unexplained and take the So if we can start with intervene the earliest at the early stage when considering like should I get the vaccine should I not just answering questions and explaining And trying to get actual of consensus and the amount of money and research and collaboration scientific expertise that's going into where we are now which is two months two years into pending where we have almost 10 vaccines have drugs coming Where we have an incredible understanding albeit you know have variance appearing but I I it's incredible to look at how far science is born It truly is It's unbelievable

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 49:52

it must be

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 49:53

And I know of

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 49:53

it must be the so disheartening to see science has it This is just incredible We should be celebrating that The fact that we've got to the pinnacle of science we've got to this scientific point where we can get these vaccines out Like if we didn't When I think back to two years ago and even in Vietnam back in may we had almost 0% of the population vaccinated two years ago when this first arrived we had zero vaccines We had zero defense And if we still didn't have any vaccines this is the thing that gets me If we still had we were still at the point where we're waiting for them which in a normal timeline we would still be waiting on them Oh my goodness How bad would it be

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 50:38

It's not even I mean even bear thinking about really Yeah actually it's terrifying them And if you look what happened you know at the start of the Hyundai in it and China but then actually you know actually a country where and you know what stocks to get and like you to pins like cars And yet the UK was doing nothing but clinics They were dying I mean after my mother-in-law lives in Exley and she was they were one of the first ones and she talked it was and you know the number of deaths you know these making decisions that doctors should never have to make about know how do we what we've in terms of resources and who do we choose to save and let you see Like know that it's you know it's at when was world worldwide after that And then the in discovery pate lane really ramped up and the collaboration all believers and seen that without that Where would we be right now And I actually just until you said that I was like I hadn't really thought about that Actually It really has me almost reaching for the west it's

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 51:46

would be completely defenseless

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 51:48

home

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 51:49

Let's be honest really difficult for the past two years but everyone involved apart from Jeff Bezos he's doing okay gone to space and everything but for everyone who is still struggling like Hey oh mentally financially all of this stuff so imagine how bad it would be if we this this so Without too much detail for anyone who's listening who is doesn't just doesn't understand can you very quickly and easily as you can explain how these work why we should trust them You know what why are they they've come The people you know people say to they've come too all of this explain

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 52:29

Yeah

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 52:30

as you can I be challenging

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 52:33

let's let's by that immune response is basically your inner army right And I use this analogy all the time I hate school to military analogies but it just works so well where your immune response is your body's NRR army to fight against invaders That's that's as simple as as there's lots of sales there's lots of different weapons there One a very very basic level does now A vaccine is simply taking that immune response taking it to a training camp teaching it what the enemy looks like Training it kill the enemy and handling it the best ammunition Right That's effectively what it is so that when you see that disease you are ready So when I speak to people who are you know but you know I trust my immune system and immune system's not perfect Right It's an incredible part of care of your body as amazing It is not perfect It's far from perfect Then I like to use as if you were going into a war zone would you rather win as a rookie or would you rather go in as an elite force right Saint on the elites don't stand on the rookies Do they seem with your immune response So that's what vaccines do Now coming back to the development of the vaccines which has been incredible what I would like to see The vaccine development has been heavily expedited And what we mean by that is a lot of this normal hoard blocks that are put in the way of a clinical trial are there to the same extent Now that doesn't mean safety has been compromised If you imagined put together a clinical trial is a lot of work and a lot of money and takes a lot Yeah

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 54:15

trial is as I said because I worked in the

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 54:18

Yeah

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 54:19

I think some people actually and I didn't know what a clinical trial was before I worked here So just is a trial

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 54:27

Okay So I clinical trial and when it's well designed is when we have a new drug or a new intervention it doesn't have to be a drug diagnostic test It could be a vaccine it could be a number of things So you take that new thing whether it's a drug or a vaccine and you test it in people against what we call up the Siebel which is basically an initiative Non-reactive

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 54:54

Like

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 54:56

fluids So with the vaccine it would be whatever their behavior is for the vaccine normally would be used as the as the placebo So when you're injected you do not know whether you're getting the placebo or the actual vaccine right So that's a placebo controlled trial was are the most controlled and they call it randomized The patient it's not like they deliberately choose a patient to take either one or the other It's totally random And when it's double blind it means that neither the person giving it nor the person receiving it knows what that is and the volume So it makes it really unbiased Right And we only know at the end when we unblind all the numbers and see who got what right So it's a really controlled way of And clinical trials with three different processes So at the start there's fate well actually you get preclinical which is often you would animal studies cell-based studies et cetera before it even gets into humans When we get to phase one and you mentioned phase one earlier trials phase one The whole point of a phase one child is to look at safety It doesn't look at whether that's effective It just looks to see you know on a number of doses whether this is safe So phase one STO happens phase two When you start to enroll people you still look at safety but you're also looking at Is this effective right Are we seeing antibodies produced And we hear a lot of antibodies after you have a vaccine which is one measure of the immune response it's not taught one So it doesn't tell the full story but it's it's one indicator and it's very easy to measure because it's in your blood So they would test antibody levels and then they would look at and not try the number of people who eventually got COVID-19 and who didn't get COVID-19 how that looks Phase two's quite a small number Phase three is still looking at always looking at safety that doesn't change the child's They still with kids safety data but with a larger number of people you can start to see later affects so affects They're slightly less likely to pull it up on a smaller population and affect you See effectiveness on a bigger level and a bigger more people more And often it will be in different hospitals not just one hospital And many of these trials have happens across a number of countries as well Now with COVID-19 The timeline to get to phase one Now that whole preclinical phase that takes a long time and you will know that working in that other Institute takes a long long time The good thing about COVID-19 vaccines are that they were already building on the back of other previous vaccines been tested key So it wasn't entirely brand new They were building on some information that they already had The also

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 58:00

a new disease Right

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 58:03

No I need a disease You know we call it the common cold and all of these things So when we had Before So there was development of facts SARS They were never ruled out because SARS then disappeared and became less important So the money dries up in the search when the outcome is not so important Wait so but that technology is there So that was already being built on Then you have something that's affecting the whole water too which means there's a lot of funding getting pushed behind it Okay So we can set up There's also a lot of people getting So it's far

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 58:38

Well patient

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 58:39

test accuracy when there's a lot of the disease around as well Okay lots of people were willing to enroll So all of that was sped up Lots of hospitals wants to be involved Lots of people wanted to be involved So all of those things that take a long time are shortened And then the got ethical approval system which means that when these ethical approvals are going in and they're going to the top of the So you need to have these meetings with jobs so happens None of that change those actual parts

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 59:11

Just they moved in in front of the queues That was it

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 59:14

all of the parts in between And then they also overlap some aspects of the child which was stowed done in a very very safe manner So when people say they were rushed I see Northern where they were ex So if you imagine an ambulance fighting down the street where all of everyone's moved out of the MI and how quick that happens and you know the Yuki and then you try and do it in a traffic channel And

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 59:39

a great one

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 59:42

it's about like that And and that's changed And that's what happens in you know hearts Billions of people backs nieces 1 billion Safely So for people saying you know I don't want to be a labra or you know I you know I I don't trust it like well you're the control group right You're effectively the control group and I would have been I wouldn't recommend being the control group particularly as this is I mean even in Vietnam I've been doing so tremendously well and then Delta hits the video obviously that then spread wide because it was more transmissible and it's no the cases are going up again and Vietnam But the good thing now is that you know the majority of us are vaccinated and the hospitals aren't bursting at the scenes as they were a couple of months Which was the real concern and that's why they locked down And that's why to protect a healthcare system that you know needs help And not just because of poor vids we don't want beds filling up with people and other diseases and other conditions then becoming you know classroom damage because people can't get beds the long-term is to protect the healthcare system and that we're vaccinated That's less of a concern Hopefully we'll remain that way

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 1:01:08

Listening to that How do you know get fucking angry with like people that don't understand that like I'm listening to you and I'm like I understood that process you described like vaguely because I've worked in that industry a little bit and it made total sense to me The reason I asked you to clarify some of it is because I think most people probably wouldn't understand even at the most basic description what is a clinical trial So does that not just infuriate you and I use this as a hook on stage when you have someone like a restaurant manager posting online like I want to wait for the vaccines cause and the Juul K makers imagine that you prefer to use you as an example Imagine Dr Lee Jones walked into the restaurant and walked into the kitchen and was like you're that watched the YouTube video And it said that you should do it differently Like they would be like get the fuck out of my but

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 1:02:01

Yeah I mean yeah I get pissed off sometimes you know we're all human but I mean there's been It's not the first time but it's it's been such a rare thing that you know you get questions on these things people and the post they've maybe done a Google search or whatever but I mean I I don't mean questions but yeah that sort of questioning without really having an interest in what you have to see is that as the really annoying one like you mentioned but there's you know There's jobs and livelihoods and careers have continually had this since they started Like how many teachers I'm sure that are on this call listening Every period and I'm sure it will have an opinion or have not been used to that Like scientists haven't been used in the same way as someone going well you know that wouldn't work because X Y and Zed we've not really had that So it's kind of not to the same extent anyway on an everyday basis you know or people standing on the side of a football pitch shouting at the coach when they have no About what they're talking about And I she's posted

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 1:03:09

Yeah So the more salad one but you push see that

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 1:03:14

I'm saying you know I don't expect people to but I don't at people in the street to talk to me about how you pass a football and whatever although know walk me if you went down like down to the pub and went to the side of the park people Well but yeah it's it's it's and it's not shouldn't be blamed trust in people and you know Judah an expert so you must know better but Lesson towards someone seeing when they come from a slightly different level of expertise And if they're putting evidence to you in trying to explain something then rather than thinking you must be a fiefdom that you'd a feed and fight that you know bear and you've got the real truth Like maybe you're just wrong I mean it's

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 1:03:54

wrong in these days That's

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 1:03:56

no

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 1:03:56

problem Have you when was the ever met anyone That was like oh yeah no sorry I was wrong on that

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 1:04:03

I'm going to admit I'm wrong here So maybe that's to to inspire some people to say at the start it's a pandemic when everyone was talking about masks I was like honestly it's probably one of the least effective interventions and that's because there wasn't a lot of good strong data on Musk And ironically

audio_only_16778242_Niall_Mackay: 1:04:21

Right Okay

audio_only_16779266_Leigh_Jones: 1:04:24

sense the pandemics going on and you know there's there's much bad evidence There's been really good done to pertain really have a blot about the precautionary and how even if it was a tiny tiny effect It's not damaging So why not And even if it's just an image and an awareness of people seeing people wearing masks and thinking oh we're not a normal team shape Now we should be more careful And as that an indicator to social questions So and that's where social science has been really important in the pandemic And I'm coming from a wet lab biological science backed grades And I find the social science aspects of it Now maybe even more than chase And so important because if you ignore people and behavior and reasons for behavior you've lost it doesn't good the intervention you bought is whether it's a jog or a vaccine If you don't look at the social science aspects you're losing So I just yeah I I found that really interesting and I've learned a lot since starting the pandemic so yes I wish masquerading so let's put that there So yes it might You're wrong

Track 2: 1:05:38

Can you just clarify for me as well What do you mean by the social science power

Leigh Jones: 1:05:46

I mean if you don't go out and and do interviews and community work to face Maybe why people are hesitant to say let's take vaccine hesitancy As an example we actually have a PhD student or crew working on this but the four Corvettes and no she's got a large component of Corvettes And that work if there is a community that is protecting vaccine hesitance hesitant bait how can you even begin to come up with an intervention or figure out what to do when you don't know why it is now See you assumed for example That's the reason that people aren't getting vaccinated as because they have received anti-vax messages on social media So say you assume that and you put all your money into a campaign that's just combating misinformation on local Facebook groups and still the vaccine uptake does not work Then you go and speak to the community And I'm seeing this because it's an example I actually heard that see that community is quite remote and you go out to that community and you see why are you not getting vaccinated And why are your kids not getting vaccinated And they say well to get to the vaccine clinic I need to dry for almost a day So it means I can't work that day And when I drive to the vaccine station it's next door to a police station And I do not hide half my bake license So I'm worried if I go there then they're going to see my bakery and I'm not gonna be able to go home Right So this is what I mean like if you assume something is the reason but you don't actually go and speak to people then you could be way off Mark And you're completely missing the point So I think that's an every way is definitely you can't just see you know one country see there's vaccine hesitancy and you assume it's the same reason somewhere Else's it's not it's not like that And every place is different So I think you really need to put in the effort and it takes a lot of work like social science research just heating for my colleagues to do it Like not my area I almost knew almost nothing about it before moving to all Korea and listening to some incredible seminars and stuff And it takes a long time and it's something that really can't be underestimated And I think some of the best roll-outs have been in places where they've consented to the local community and they've lessened they've tried to figure out how to make things better before they go ahead and just assume and that's just period out again It's like in science we go out and we get evidence before we do something And why would that be any different when you're expecting that people are going to take something new and you haven't gone and asked and that's where public campaigns are really important where public health messaging is important but there's multiple levels to it right You know it's really really really vital you know in some communities and see Subsaharan Africa et cetera and trying to get local opinion leaders on board like F w leader of the chart is very important in that in that community speak to them and get them on board and get them to help you get that message And you know things like that Are so important and it shouldn't be underestimated and yes it's just something Yeah It's a growing in chest for

Track 2: 1:09:30

of the things I was going to say Ella but it's relevant to what you're talking about now And I think this is probably especially relevant to what you were describing before what your your role is So I remember when I worked at the Institute that the director there I agree I'm the girl Who's obviously unbelievable man One of the things that he was really trying to instill in the PhD students and even the the established scientists was their communication skills So this was way back to I worked there like 2014 15 and even then he was identifying that there was this massive gap In science and in and you probably recognize in the mix century that you're in the lab you're doing a resale to you understand the minutia of the mitochondria and the cells the and the all of this but then taking that information and explaining it to the general public in a way that they can understand Yeah identified back then was a massive gap and he wanted his students to become better at speaking conferences at taking the data and being able to make it more understandable for the media for the social medias for the for the public understanding and do you think so that then I guess ties into what you're just describing right now So is that and I'm not saying the cause of the problem of The conspiracy theories and things like that but is that part of something that's been missing that has then led to conspiracy theories Because people can then jump in and fill that gap because for years science wasn't explaining itself properly

Leigh Jones: 1:10:59

Yeah maybe I mean it's obviously it's multifactorial but I definitely think that's one of the things that where there's a gap in knowledge someone and scientific communication is really hard and I didn't get 80 treating like you did sports science Did you get any training on

Track 2: 1:11:15

this is what he was like That's why he was a genius an amazing man because he was trying to he was trying to explain that to his students that you need to get better at explaining your science

Leigh Jones: 1:11:29

Yeah And that's one of the one of the things that we'll create We have a communications team so they are obviously they are supporting that aspect One of the biggest things that I spend my time doing with the PhD students as scientific communications So how do you present science And we have this amazing competition called the three minute thesis and the PhD students have three minutes to explain Their project which is very complicated And we do it as part of a public engagement exercise with local school children So we get students from stem specialist schools or you know they have an interest in science already And the key is for those students to stand up there the PhD students for 30 minutes and get these messages across and the high school students are part of the vaulting And it's an incredible event And Time and effort that you know our PhD students Gwen to trying to figure out analogies and stories and using metaphors and anything that can bring to life a topic that is really really technical and it's and it's a really important skill for them to learn you know particularly like clinicians you're speaking to to patients on a daily basis but also the amount of effort that goes into all of the projects or crew or communicating with local community with skilled children with mothers you know with farmers So one of the things we work on is and to make tool be a resistance for example So speaking to farmers and pharmacists about antibiotic yes You know It's something that I think is understood better now And if you look at grant applications now for you know bodies like the Wellcome trust in the UK they're asking how do you communicate with the public about your work engage with policy makers to make new change You know so it's not as simple as you will rate in science us about your clinical trial where should ethical approvals or key here's the money off you go it's no but how do you meet Impactful Like it's always about impact Like how are you going to make best make a difference And I think that's that's the we almost all funding body certainly that we work with have gone and it's important And I think that that's feeding back as well And especially with Paul you need to train your scientist how you to engage with the public how to explain their science how to vape for non-scientific audiences

Track 2: 1:14:13

right in the beginning about

Leigh Jones: 1:14:14

Which is

Track 2: 1:14:15

that That's kind of like the perfect cause people aren't going to understand if you're like well you know if we take the T-cell from here and then we put it in there and then You've lost them on me As soon as you say T-cell you've lost me as well You know for your analogy about an ambulance even your analogy about like an ambulance going down the street is a is perfect but I have a challenge for you Okay And for okra instead of doing a three minute presentation you're going to get it into a 15 second Tik TOK video

Leigh Jones: 1:14:49

Oh thought Yeah Tech talk is the one at one of the platforms I not I haven't joined Twitter feeds I think Twitter particularly for side rate And you can lots of scientists that actually really are savvy and it's great Cause you can follow them in and it's it's just science speak Fest is amazing Tech talk has just been that one step too far from me as generation X I reckon Well I guess I really important

Track 2: 1:15:16

do your science 15 seconds Bang I started one recently for Seven Million Bikes but I gave up on it because what I was just doing I was repurposing content I already had I wasn't like making like Tik TOK videos and was just too much work and stuff But look this being

Leigh Jones: 1:15:35

And I think you know younger younger scientists

Track 2: 1:15:38

on there I

Leigh Jones: 1:15:38

will be on this and they're you know I think it's really important to do it because if it's if it's one of the platforms that's reaching you know younger people and that's what they're using then you should be using it But yeah from my own perspective so struggling my way through Facebook and Twitter are probably about as critical And I'll let that that to to some of the I was pass on the Baton to someone younger and and

Track 2: 1:16:04

Well it is yeah There's another important channel Cause I'm actually make a podcast for a pharmaceutical company or sorry the no they they do marketing with pharmaceutical companies and they were talking we were talking about in the last podcast episode about using tech talk as a channel And there is apparently a dentist who use these Tik TOK tissue people patients how to floss floss the teeth and things like this So clinicians are starting to use that platform Well look I know we've talked for so long which I didn't expect anything less than from two Scottish people but there's so so much I want to talk about I don't think I've ever had a repeat guest on but I may want to see if come back on so we can talk even more Cause I'd love to explore more about the conspiracy stuff but also like how we can break that down because obviously I'm quite quite well versed on that And obviously you are as well so I cannot thank you enough for everything you do on the reset side of it for coming on the show I really do appreciate I do have one last question because it's very relevant So just today we had a friend who we found out had tested positive for COVID and even then you never really know if it's true or not Cause these a lot of these home tests especially or even the PCR tests seem to fluctuate like between positive and negative sometimes But anyway my question is I was shocked when they told me that their doctor suggested ivermectin as a treat No I I've not really I've not recessed ivermectin at all I've seen little bits here and there I can see your face Can you explain to me even I really don't know much about it I know So being a conspiracy theorist and then a reform conspiracy theories I can see the media tactics of they were like oh it's a Holstein Well now I don't think that's entirely true And and there was people being like oh it's never been trialed clinically which I don't think is also true It has been trialed So I think sometimes the media goes too far in the other direction and I could see what they're trying to do You're trying to make it be like if you believe in ivermectin you're a ridiculous flat out So who believes in this hostile When I didn't need to do much research I didn't do any research to be like oh no it's it's actually like a it's a real thing It's a para parasitic worms Is that what it is for So it's a real treat That's it Yeah So it can be used in humans It's not technically like these crazy people are going out and taking a Holstee warmer but it doesn't mean it's effective for COVID So just your face can a cringe there Obviously when I said about literally this happened today and my friend was like oh the doctor gave me medicines I was like well what did they give you Because obviously we know in Vietnam they love to just pop your fill of antibiotics which she was given antibiotics for COVID as well which even as a layman didn't seem to make much sense to me just quickly My first day in Vietnam my wife cut her tool quite badly like the top of a tool And we went to the pharmacy to get it cleaned up and he wanted to give her antibiotics And I was like why are you giving antibiotics for Too if it gets infected then yes you will get antibiotics but it's just anyway going back to the ivermectin question can you explain a little bit about that

Leigh Jones: 1:19:16

So it's an amazing It's great And it has been used in humans It's not just a horse dewormer obviously used it very different concentrations And I think the whole fish about calling it a horse dewormer was a lot of concern about and people perhaps trying to get hold of it from Baton restores cause it's more easily available or from poultry stores Should I say that it's easy to get hold of and and not create the nation And so I think the whole idea of putting feed into people that will bet to see You know don't take shouldn't and in terms of efficiency against COVID-19 there have been a number of trials and there is no evidence that it is an ADB effective against COVID-19 infection No Well because as with lots of repurpose drugs and that's what's been happening since the start of the pandemic is that we'll be practicing drugs for S and COVID-19 treatment and that's the recovery Each Oxfords has tasted a number of drugs and a huge clinical trial T to see if there's anything that will be of your stacks methods on as one that's being used and severely ill patients and common cheap steroids so that there's no conspiracy against you know just wanting expensive drugs cheap decks in episode one of the standards of care and severe COVID but coming back to ivermectin there were some initial studies very early on in sales and a dash that shorts that at high concentrations it can stop or limit vital replication So we're not saying I was in a dish and a lot of treatments did not come through into Effectiveness and I feel human and that's kind of where that happened And the same thing happened with hydroxychloroquine as well what should a member at the start of the pandemic was the one that was you were the

Track 2: 1:21:09

It was some guy I can't

Leigh Jones: 1:21:10

tainted and

Track 2: 1:21:11

guy just kept going on about it I can't remember his name Got

Leigh Jones: 1:21:15

yay

Track 2: 1:21:16

yeah

Leigh Jones: 1:21:17

Seem to disappear And it's a funny anyway If it's shading thing is that there was so really good Child's looking at the as a preventative and it's still ongoing It's called the cop cough trail And that's that it's an officer child that's been brought in by the Thailand unit And we wait for data on that I mean if it came out that it was quite good at preventing Corvettes know what may be useful particularly in health care workers which is where it's being trialed But anyway that's you know the actual as an ASP as a treatment hydronic supportive Quinn was probably one of the way you just tested drunk since the start with the plan and did not show any effect in treating COVID-19 right So we put that to bed and then ivermectin comes along and it's quite a similar story You know what looked positive and sales and a dash And there were some Airlie poorly run trials some and not even borderline fraudulent and happy one sense that said had this amazing effect which was born out to be nonsense and was pure data But by then the damage is diamond You have this huge and hate with that then spread but there's been a lot of trials looking at it and it's it's not been shown to be effective and it's came And again there's this child looking at you know would it be useful in very early stage treatment and that's again one of the the ops routines are looking at that as well And there's no data on that yet So don't hear that's being pushed I mean in essence if it's the correct dosage and you know adopters I'm sure is as Being the same spot on that front and giving a dosage that would be effecting another pad ascetic disease For example then it's it's unlikely to do you any harm but you shouldn't really be taking any drugs where there's no effect You see data it's just to me nuts that's insane And yeah it's it's kinda sad to hear

Track 2: 1:23:17

Yeah I was like oh my God So just a question quick question And a follow-up what just gets me as well as w why would people think You and the global community with care probation who is would not want we'd want to suppress these drugs Why would they be hiding hydrochloric When are heavy Is it ivermectin It just none of it makes any sense to me

Leigh Jones: 1:23:43

Again it's about you know if you can rate a few creates best simple common it means that you can sort of justifying your domains or compartmentalizing your domains If you think about COVID being maybe you know COVID emphasized or trying to control us through this or all of these things you can quite easily put under that one heading off that there's a body in also I think and I hate to oversimplify it and in a way maybe patronize some people That are lessening I'm not And I don't want to do that I do I do understand where that where that comes strong but just always remember to look at the evidence always remember to look at the data You don't want to try tickle assessor when you're getting something it's a YouTube video Don't waste your time You know who's who's giving this information to you How trustworthy are the do they have a background in the area Are they using overly emotive language In that case It's such a huge red flag buy into that You know just look for those Look for those flags are the massively flying in the face of consensus right And consensus is is is powerful because it's not that everybody's ended on this And it's so many different scientists have looked at the evidence and come to the same conclusion and that's powerful and people have done different experiments in slightly different ways or different studies and come to the same conclusion That's consensus It's not believe in one person but others is believing burden of evidence like huge amount of evidence Then if you're a charity packing one or two country and people have different ideas you know they may you know there has been situations in the past where you know science has moved but science moves with evidence It doesn't move because someone's standing there shouting at mood Right And and if you want to come to the table disagreement past comes to the table with a disagreement but come with evidence Don't come well come to the table He can't be trusted because he's far more he's you know bill gates is trying to control the road or whatever it is Come with evidence come with some That is going to turn that chaperones And that's how science you know consensus does sometimes turn around but it turns around by more evidence and more experts finding that not someone setting on Google and shouting you know that's that's not where we're at and that's not where we should be So just lesson lesson two look at the Bart's Ask for the evidence ask for data you know lesson to people that are experts in the area and ask the questions you want to ask but don't dismiss them when when what the here at what they see Isn't what your Teddy packet There or you're good And Sarah or your Facebook friends who say you know just be your own critical analyst as you know it's all kinds of asks incubate it Thank you for you and ask for data and evidence all the time

Track 2: 1:26:58

I literally couldn't agree with you a hundred percent more and I'm just listening to you They're like yeah yeah yeah But at the back of my mind I'm like I literally if if anyone is listening who is all of that persuasion I already knew what the scene because I used to be like that And they're like yeah no they're not th th those those people are being silenced you know they're they're not they're they're all in the back pocket of big pharma The Ross chair was like I already because I've been there So we can finish

Leigh Jones: 1:27:27

That's certainly an interesting perspective to come from and actually like met chicken I have spoken about this my other half and he says people should speak to the theaters that have come out the other end because the end insight into psychology of it and how you bought the air and war changed your mains And and I think that's all really good But coming onto the silence

Track 2: 1:27:50

your tweet today I saw your tweet Today was a is a good one

Leigh Jones: 1:27:58

you know my experience of being silenced and what how do you know if they're being silenced Do you know who they are I don't I don't get that You know

Track 2: 1:28:09

Yeah this part of the and I've come to be aware as you probably know the main two gymnastics that you have to take to to to keep your position is is exhausting but you don't realize that at the time So I remember when I was deep down the rabbit hole and I didn't post very much thankfully on my my own Facebook but I had another Facebook page that I used And people would shoot me down at the time or one or two people and are dealing now They don't know what else she pulled like blah blah blah all that stuff So anyway that's what I'm saying We could do a whole nother episode And with that you know with raises well you mentioned as well we have a similar outlook and the whole psychology of it is is fascinating So that's what I'm seeing as you you're like cheerleading on that and I'm like yeah yeah yeah But I'm like feel bad cause it's almost banging your head against a brick wall because for someone like me or anyone who agrees with you we're like yeah And for someone who doesn't agree they're like no

Leigh Jones: 1:29:05

That's what I come back to the hesitancy aspects I'm not you know I I'm not gonna argue with with people if you know if that's how you know if that's genuinely what you believe and as a bleak by then it's a bleak structure and I'm not going argue a belief structure because evidence is pointless So I don't want I don't want to spend ends my time There's there's advocacy is really useful where it can have an impact and it's certainly not certainly not me I want to speak to people who genuinely have some questions that somebody just hasn't answered in a simple way That's what I want to do I don't I don't want to argue with someone about bill gates and and you know all of these names and I don't want to beat it I want to talk to people about science and vaccines and immune response and and staying safe and public

Track 2: 1:29:59

I wanted to ask you much more about

Leigh Jones: 1:30:01

I don't want to talk

Track 2: 1:30:02

safe track side So I'm saying we need to do another episode talking about Anthony you know he's a beagle killer right You've heard this

Leigh Jones: 1:30:12

Oh no And I know

Track 2: 1:30:12

God I'll tell you about that way We'll talk about that on the next episode Yeah He's an evil animal killer as well This is how I cause I still see some of this stuff in his crazy So listen I won't take up any more of your time I honestly can't Thank you enough I've been so looking forward to this and it's not there's a point where before we go tell people where can they find more of your work Where can they follow you How can they allow more What what should people do from this And we will put links in the notes that you send me for anything you say so people can click the

Leigh Jones: 1:30:42

Yeah I can send notes And again I'm not working on Corvettes but there's a lot of COVID work going on or crew so you can follow or cruder arc That's all you see are you.org And you can follow Please follow the WSU or please follow the CDC Please follow the British society for immunology They have some amazing educational resources on public engagement resources to break exciting science and to Bite-sized chunks that can be understated And obviously immunology is my first love So I would strongly recommend you go there There's an amazing Facebook group I'm Twitter page called science up first which is a Canadian company oh also follow the health feedback initiative They are doing a lot of work with busting misinformation on social media They take the name new stories and trends that are coming around on the ask scientists to And comment on them and the rate flat checking pieces So there are another amazing resource So yeah all of those I can I can say to you as well as you know if if you're a mother expecting mother there's there's and the Royal college of obstetricians gynecologists in the UK There's amazing places to get lots of information about the specific things that you're concerned about and if anyone has any further or any further questions on specific aspects I can point them in the direction of the right websites to go to But there's just so many amazing websites out there Know about science follow the men universe trustees you know all of these things are worth the fall or just always questioned

Track 2: 1:32:20

I was going to see a lot I saw this amazing YouTube video you know and let us galley was really convincing And too I don't know about all of that technical stuff that you just said This guy on YouTube was like pretty good man

Leigh Jones: 1:32:34

I get game Yeah I'll send you I'll send you all of those links and also let them slide I put together about doing it On fact checking

Track 2: 1:32:41

If you're listening check out the notes below and you'll be able to click all of those links Thank you so much Dr Lee Jones been amazing I'm going get your dental now Thank you for giving us your time and I will talk to you soon

Leigh Jones: 1:32:56

Ears Neo been a pleasure catch sin by