Explore Hue with Brad Hirsch!

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"In Hue, you’re never more than 15 minutes away from nature, history, or a great meal." – Brad Hirsch

Talking with Brad was an absolute highlight to start A Vietnam Podcast Season 12. Hearing about his journey, his deep love for Hue City, and the way he has immersed himself in the culture and community was truly inspiring. 

This episode reminded me why Vietnam has such a magnetic pull on people from all walks of life. Brad’s passion for Hue’s natural beauty, its fascinating history, and its rich culinary traditions brought the city to life in a way that makes me want to pack my bags and head there immediately. 

It’s episodes like this that reignite my love for this incredible country and remind me there’s always more to discover. – Niall Mackay

Key Takeaways

1. The Hue Citadel and Royal Recipes
   • Experience Vietnam’s rich imperial history at the Citadel. Hue’s royal cuisine features dishes inspired by its emperors.
2. Nature Adventures in Hue
   • Discover Bach Ma National Park, home to Vietnam’s tallest waterfall and rare bird species. 
3. Unique Culinary Delights
   • Try Bun Hen, a local specialty made from tiny clams harvested from the Perfume River. 
4. Unmissable Boat Rides
   • Take a serene boat ride on the Perfume River, perfect for families and nature lovers. 
5. Hidden Gems: Brackish Water Ecosystem
   • Explore brackish lagoons near Hue for a unique blend of salt and freshwater ecosystems. 

Chapters and Timestamps

01:50 - Brad shares his story of moving to Vietnam and falling in love with Hue.
06:50 - Hue’s Underrated Charm
10:10 - Adventures in Bach Ma National Park
15:00 - Biking and Brackish Water Ecosystems
19:00 - The Citadel and Royal Recipes
25:40 - Tips for Visiting Hue
31:20 - Comparing Cities: Hue vs. Saigon and Hanoi
37:30 - Hue’s Culinary Deligh

Transcript

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 0:00

it took about four days for me to finally decide."This is it! Vietnam's my number one! Ballot box is closed! I have no further shopping required. I'm moving here."

Niall Mackay: 1:01

Welcome to Season 12 of A Vietnam Podcast with me, your host, Niall Mackay, and we're doing a special mini series about what to do all around Vietnam. I really hope you're enjoying this series. It's been really good making it. I'm getting to meet some really, really interesting people. I first came to Vietnam for a vacation in 2015, and I traveled pretty much. The length and breadth of the country went from Saigon to the Mekong Delta, all the way up to Hoi An, Da Nang, Hanoi, and then as far as Sapa. And then I went back home to New Zealand with my wife, Adrie, and we were just in love with Vietnam. So we came back in 2016 and we've basically never left and seen so much of the country, but still. still not seen all of it. And so I'm really, really excited for today's episode because we're going to talk to somebody who has been here in Vietnam for a long time, to the point where he's fluent in Vietnamese, which not many people can say that. And today we're going to be talking about central Vietnam. So my guest today is a seasoned traveler who chose Vietnam as his long term paradise, as many of us do. And he's been living here for over a decade and married to his wife from Hue for over seven years. He's also an actor and he's acted in three movies and a TV host And he's featured in over 20 travel shows with VTV4, one of the biggest channels here in Vietnam, showcasing Vietnam's beauty. taught Vietnamese speaker who is, I don't even know how this is possible, but fluent in seven languages, and he's now teaching Vietnamese to foreigners online and working as a translator and interpreter. So, if you want In this episode, which I am so excited for, we're going to be talking about the discovery of nature in central Vietnam, including bike tours around Hue city and the hidden advantages of Hue city, as opposed to where I am in Saigon or way up north in Hanoi. Today, I am going to be talking to Brad Hirsch. Brad, thank you so much for coming on a Vietnam podcast today.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 3:00

Well, thank you, Niall. Glad to be here. And I'm so proud of Central Vietnam. And I'm, I think it's really underrepresented and I'm really happy to talk about it and hopefully be able to inspire folks to come out here and try it out for themselves.

Niall Mackay: 3:13

I think that is true, right? Like it is underrated a bit. It is on the main tourist route, like, but it's still, I mean, we didn't do it the first time we came. The first time we came, we just skipped by, we did Da Nang and Hoi An straight up to Hanoi. Yeah. So I think it does need a bit more attention, a bit more love because it is incredible. But before we get into that, tell me a little bit about how did you end up in Vietnam and how did you end up staying here for 10 years?

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 3:39

Well, um, one thing I could say is I spent a lot of years shopping, uh, trying out different countries because in a lot of ways I felt like I didn't a hundred percent belong in America the rest of my life. Uh, for a lot of years I went to Mexico, I consider that one of the best countries in the world. uh, a lot of folks who've been there might concur, but, uh, yeah, I got a chance to go to Taiwan, learn a little bit of Mandarin Chinese, and that opened my eyes to Asia. many years later, I got invited to come here with my great uncle, and he was actually a former helicopter pilot, you know, 55 years ago

Niall Mackay: 4:16

Wow.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 4:17

And I got a chance to actually join him for a whole, like, three weeks. uh, around Southern Vietnam. And it was my first introduction and, uh, gosh, I've got to say, it took about four days for me to finally decide this is it, Vietnam's my number one. This is, ballot box is closed. I have no further shopping required. I'm moving here.

Niall Mackay: 4:38

So we've talked about this so many times on the podcast, and I know I repeat myself, but I just can't help it. There is just something about Vietnam, right? And I know it's not just me. There's a reason why I'm here this long. I have many friends that have been here about the same amount of time as you. When you meet people that have been here 20, 30, 40 years, everybody says the same thing. You just come to Vietnam and it just, it grips you. I mean, I know Anthony Bourdain talked about it. Like it really got him. It's really exciting. Yeah. For you, what about Vietnam made you think within four days this is the place to be? Because I sometimes think it's hard to describe, it's hard to put into words.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 5:15

Sure, sure. And also say that it's quite tricky to put to words, but I can jump to a few things. Um, one, I think is, um, just that raw friendliness of people. The fact that I can have no money and know nobody and sit on a street corner and it's reasonable. Within 10 minutes, 30 minutes, I make a bunch of new friends, can say hi and just enjoy the entire afternoon there without a care. It's rare to travel in the world and have that. Um, on the other hand, I would say, um, you know, in Mexico, they have a really fun and vibrant and musical culture. Everyone is also very friendly, it's got some downsides. For example, crime. You know, or distrust of people or rickety infrastructure. Whereas, uh, Taiwan and areas like Japan would be the other end of the spectrum. So that of course means like super formal, zero crime, but it's also not much fun either.

Niall Mackay: 6:10

No, I like that. That's a really good way to look at it. And Vietnam does really kind of hit that sweet spot, right? It kind of ticks a lot of those boxes, but at the same time, people can be overwhelmed by Vietnam. Now, I remember the story, and I don't think it's the most common, but it's definitely a real story. We were hanging out one time with a couple of people, uh, English language teachers. This was. Way back, like when we first arrived, so seven, eight years ago. And he was telling us that one of his friends had arrived in Vietnam. They'd signed up for a school to be an English language teacher. They'd done it in other countries. And almost as soon as they landed in Vietnam, they were like, uh, no, can't do this. And when I say Vietnam, Saigon, as soon as he landed in Saigon, they were like, nope, can't do this. Turned around and was gone within like two or three days. And I think that's quite extreme. I've not really heard that again, but I do think that happens. Yeah. Do you feel that sense when you get here or you're just like, nah, I'm all for it?

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 7:05

I understand where that sentiment comes about, but I think anyone can have that when they travel anywhere, my goodness, you know, it's a, it's a big shock to go to a new place. And, uh, I would say 8 out of 10 places of this world I probably wouldn't like either. But, with that said, I think because it is in that sweet spot, you know, where it is both safe and you have that cheap, abundant food. But I just felt like, uh, beyond that though, larger, speaking on a more longer term, this is a place I would want to raise my future children. I see this country is developing faster than anywhere else I've seen in the world. And, uh, I get a chance to witness that right here in Hue City. Comparing, gosh, 10 years ago till now. 10 years ago it was rough. A third of the buildings downtown were all abandoned. know, and it was, you know, dark and dreary, but it's really, really come about. So I get to watch this exponential growth of everything out here, and I get to see that hope. I get to see, uh, families that maybe the mother and father and that whole generation never went to college. But now five of the five out of five of their kids all graduated college and all have great jobs and mom and dad's getting a new house. And, and I see this shift in wealth over generations and this trajectory. So it gives me a lot of hope. So in that regard, I want to be part of a place that is developing fast. And I think Vietnam is one of, uh, objectively the fastest growing countries in the world. So, yeah, that's a factor as well. I must say.

Niall Mackay: 8:34

I've not been to Hue in a long time. I think the last time we went there was about seven years ago, maybe eight years ago. So I would love to come back and see the difference. When I went, I mean, I loved it. I'm sure it has changed so much. Let me just grab something from my kitchen that I'm going to show you that we got when we were in Hue.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 8:52

Ready to go. What have you got?

Niall Mackay: 8:54

So if you're listening to this podcast, remember it is on YouTube as well. And I, I'm a big audio guy, but unfortunately we are on YouTube So you can watch it. So you can actually see what I'm going to show you, but I got this bottle opener from a blind man in a restaurant in Hui. And it's even got the date on it, 19th of July, 2016. And I don't know if you can read that. If you can see it, I don't actually know what it says on there. I think it might be the guy's name. It says Lac Tien. I think that was the name of the restaurant. And then Banh Khoi Tung Tu, which I think was his name. And this was again, just the beauty of Vietnam, 19th of July, 2017. I still use this every time I have a bottle of beer. It's a piece of wood with a nail through it. Not a nail, like a screw. And it works unbelievably. We got given this by a blind man that we were eating in his restaurant in 2016. And came over, had a taste. chat with us, but obviously couldn't speak. We couldn't speak the language. He couldn't speak the language. We came over and it's just such a beautiful memory. And it really made our trip in Hue stand out.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 9:58

When I think any traveling adventure, you know, can have moments like that peppered in, but I'm glad that you've got a little artifact like that, uh, to remind you a little bit. That's

Niall Mackay: 10:08

Now, you're, you are in Hue right now and I can see again, if you want to watch the video, go to YouTube. I can see that you're wrapped up. And I asked you when we came on, I was like, Oh, how's it going? It's cold in Hue right now, right? We're in December, we're December recording on December 4th. 16th, I think 16th, December 16th. How's the weather?

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 10:27

Oh, it's a bit nippy. Well, we actually, um, we still go swimming, you know, actually every week. Uh, so rain or shine. Uh, so it's swimmable. I could say that. But, and it comes and goes. We are known for a lot of floods out here as well. So I would say that, uh, we probably get about a half a dozen floods a year. Um, then of course, uh, I would say by the time we get to January, it can rain 28 out of 30 days, my friend. Oh, so it's a real rainy outfit.

Niall Mackay: 10:58

What would you say, when is the best time of year to visit do you think?

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 11:03

Well, I enjoy the rain, so I would say anytime, but with that said, uh, anywhere from like March on forward, you know, things really clear up, you know, and, uh, you're pretty well all set. You know, so I would say it's nine months a year of pleasant, delightful, t shirts, simple, the beach, um,

Niall Mackay: 11:21

And then how did you end up in Hue? Because I assume you didn't land in Hue, most people land in Saigon or Hanoi. Where did you start and then how did you end up in Hue?

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 11:30

Hmm, I actually did land in Saigon, good call, and Vung Tau right after that, actually got, similar to yourself, got the chance to, uh, foot, you know, travel across Vietnam under three different occasions, south to north by motorcycle. that was an outstanding overview of the whole country in a lot of ways. uh, but yeah, once I got to Hue though, that first time, and I had my first Huda beer. And it was, I remember distinctly, it was December, I was there all alone, I didn't know anybody, and it was raining like the Dickens. And, uh, and I got a beer outside standing in the rain in my raincoat, getting off of this motorcycle, and I'm like, I love this city already, underneath this beautiful bridge. And there's this romance that just jumped out to me at that moment, and I'm like, this is it. This is my new home. And, uh, but yeah, I fell in love with it, maybe at the quote, quote, worst time of the year.

Niall Mackay: 12:22

Well, I love Huda Beer, so I don't know how much you know, but that's become like a staple here in Saigon over the last, like, just two years. Like it was never really available here. I'd tried it when I was in Hue, which I know I'm saying it incorrectly, right? Because our Vietnamese friend, and she's Southern Vietnamese, so maybe says it different to you. But the way she says it always makes me laugh because it's like, how do you say it? How's the correct way? It's funny.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 12:47

Oh, you know, there are more than one correct way, but I just, if you just are an English speaker and you think about the letters W A Y, way, 99 percent of the way

Niall Mackay: 12:57

Yeah, I'll put it over there. Yeah, so Huda is a really, really cheap beer and it's actually quite tasty. It's quite good. And they've kind of taken over the market down here in Saigon. So again, about, I can't remember the exact. timeline, but about 18 months, two years ago, wasn't available anywhere. And then I guess they got a massive investment or the, the, whoever owns them. I think it's Carlsberg that owns them, brought them into the market. And now every second bar sale was a Huda. And if you just want a nice, cheap, easy drinking beer, it's a good one. And I love that it says it's brewed with a Danish recipe. So I assume you know this,.But maybe I'm going to find out you don't know this. Huda, the beer is called Huda because of H U for Hue and D A for Denmark.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 13:41

You

Niall Mackay: 13:41

knew. Ah, I was I was going, I was going, I was gonna get one that you didn't know So next time we're in Hui, or the next time you come down to Saigon, we'll definitely go for some ura.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 13:51

Oh, glad to hear that. Yeah. And it's very, uh, very easy to enjoy oneself along the water. And I've got to say, there's a lot of folks that are river, lake, you know, sort of folks. An interesting aspect is so much of this town has a whole network of canals. For example, Citadel itself is a huge, or multi, uh, multi canals that all connect within one another. with all the major markets. Um, so in that regard, there's a lot of restaurants that are built right on the water or various other canals. And so I feel like that's such a beautiful, uh, experience, you know, to be out there, especially when it is raining, the rain's pouring down and you're right here at the intersection of some canals and a castle. Where else would you want to be?

Niall Mackay: 14:39

you mentioned like the Citadel and the Citadel is really impressive. So if you don't know who was the ancient capital of Vietnam, if I'm correct, and you'll know way more about this than I do, uh, and it's, it's a beautiful big. Square, Ancient Citadel that you can go in and check it out. There's also the pagodas or what's it, what are the monuments called? They're not all pagodas are they? When you go around to see all the monuments I'm forgetting.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 15:03

Mm hmm. Sure. Well, they would actually use the Vietnamese word Chua. Uh, so Chua Thien Mu, uh, would be the most famous one out here. But Chua means both pagoda and you can figure, uh, pagodas that have monuments. uh, broadly

Niall Mackay: 15:17

Right. So that's what we did. So you can do like a day trip around. There's so many of them and they're absolutely incredible. Like the, some of them are amazing, quite old as well. But those, I think, again, we're talking about Hui is underrated, and even as being underrated, those are well known things to do. What other things are there to do out there, especially within nature? Because I know that you know a lot about discovering nature up there.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 15:40

Sure, there's a, the, the first thing I could say is around Hue, no matter where you look, you're gonna find nature. And, uh, given the size of the city, uh, for example, you can go 15 minutes or 10 minutes by bicycle in any direction, and, uh, you're right out in nature. Whether that's mountains out to the west, uh, maybe in 15K you're at the beach, or 12K you're at the beach. You know, or, um, rice fields, or lagoons. So, in that regard, you can just get a bicycle, usually it's 50k for a day, and uh, and just have a blast! And you're all set! And you just choose your own adventure. I, I think that that's a really good starting point. You don't even need to really have an agenda. Uh, these days we're all traveling on easy mode, so if you go out long enough, you just pull out your phone, how do I get back? And you, uh, maps are covered, um, that kind of thing. it's a very low stress, easy way to get around. with all that said, the Bachman National Park is within an easy shot of here. Uh, last trip I went there, uh, I actually bicycled there. It's about 40km by bicycle. So, not bad. But that is probably the most amazing park I've seen in all of Asia. uh, it is absolutely mind blowing. Not only the tall mountains that it's got, one particular waterfall. I believe it's the tallest one in all of Vietnam. Um, what is it? Uh, over 900 feet. Forget the numbers, but one way or another, from there you can actually see the towers of Da Nang to the right, and you can see the Tower of Hue to the left. You just have this beautiful vantage point, and oftentimes you're above the clouds, so you look down, it's, it's majestic. But, uh, for nature lovers, I would say doing a Bac Ma tour, they have these quick day tours. Maybe it's 20 bucks, uh, and they'll bus you out there, bring you a guide, and you get to follow these waterfalls and swim in these pools on the way down. And you really get 20 bucks worth. Yeah, I really, uh, fell in love with it even further because instead of just being a tourist, uh, this, uh, fourth trip that I took was with, uh, Vietnam TV. They really, lately, with Vietnam Discovery, they're, one of their shows, really want to focus on like the beautiful aspects of Vietnam and they really want to demonstrate to Vietnamese people living here and internationally, these are, in their example, over 200 unique cities that you can check out and here's the best things to do there. And in this example, they did a show about Bac Ma and really wanted to focus on the forest rangers, the forest preservation. my favorite part was working with, um, the forest rangers. some of them are former bird poachers and, uh, animal poachers. But, they kind of have one of those Saul to Paul conversion moments, and then all of a sudden, uh, want to join the ranks of protecting the forest. But to be able to, you know, to zoom into one example, there's a gentleman, he speaks the language of birds. He knows every single bird call of every bird. He can recognize 100 percent of them. And there is, in just that area, over 27 species of birds. Um, and about 15 of them are endemic, and they only live in Bachman National Park, nowhere else in the world. And this man, uh, we can just walk along and he can be like, Oh, ah, that's definitely a female red bellied swan. You know, if it was a male, it would sound like, and he would do each of the calls, but he can call and talk to each of the birds and bring them over. And basically he can play the orchestra so that it was just a moment of rapture to be able to go with a person who knows the forest so intimately, but is so passionate about it as well. And then getting a tour from a fellow like that really helps build, build it into your soul and into your bones. Like this is, this is majesty. Yeah.

Niall Mackay: 19:35

I love talking to people like yourself. It gets me so excited. And there's so much of this country that I've not seen yet as well. I'm really excited this Christmas. We're going up to Fung Yat Caves, not to Song Doong, because that's, you know, a big one. You got to, I think it's like a six month waiting list to go and do that. And it's very expensive, but we're going to do a two day caving trip. And I'm just really excited to get out and see a bit of the countryside talking to you now. Makes me really want to come back to Hu. And I think this is partly, I did an interview with Ben Mitchell from Phong Nha about a year ago. And it was him that, again, talking to him really was like, we got to go back to Phong Nha. You realize that these are amazing places. I'm a city boy. I've always really been a city boy and I love living in Saigon and I don't get out enough, but nobody really does, right? We'd all love to get out more and explore. You're doing it though already, which is amazing. So if anyone coming to Hu, what else should they do? That national park sounds incredible. What other things in nature should they do?

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 21:12

One other great idea, I think, is, uh, this area has all three types of water. So, of course, you've got the salt water from the ocean, and the fresh water from the rivers. But right in the middle, in Vietnamese, they would call it Ngoc Lo. Uh, it's brackish water. That kind of half salty, half sweet. um, so as a result, you have this whole unique ecosystem there. That means, uh, there's the brackish forest, the ruchah forest. And all of these trees, you know, look like something out of a fairy tale. You know, how they curl all together. And they actually have mudskippers that climb trees out there, fish that climb trees, and a beautiful tower that overlooks this ecosystem and world. I think, uh, just within a few K of town, you can see the different types of water, and needless to say, they have different fish there. The crabs are even different. So you get a chance to have different flavors. And on the water itself, uh, they actually have restaurants built on the water. Uh, you go out there by boat, basically getting ferried back and forth. So I think like the brackish waters, when I look on any of these tourist sites, nobody mentions it at all. It's not on anyone's list. And I'm like, at least got to check that out because it's a different aspect of nature that we don't normally see day to day. And yeah, so anyway, I would say that that's one of those examples of a hidden one. and if we're, if we're still talking water, I would say, um, in Hue City, they actually have a boat trip, uh, the sunset cruise, let's say means there's a bunch of boats for hire and you figure it's about five or 10 an hour or something like that. 10 an hour. Yeah. You can go out for three hours. especially in the rain, or you can check out the sunset and just enjoy yourself on the water, barbecue off the back, drink beer, or, uh, stop anywhere you want along the way. And in a lot of cases, hang out with other boat people, you know, and I think that that's just a really beautiful experience as well. And it's silent being on that water. You don't hear any traffic. It's the opposite of a city you get to go down the river as you watch the city just go by on the left and right side. um, so I would say that that's very underrated. That is an outstanding trip and I've done that over a hundred times.

Niall Mackay: 23:26

Now, I know Vietnam is quite flat. In general, you're mentioning this big 900 foot, maybe 900 foot waterfall. What's the landscape like in Hue compared to the rest of Vietnam or in the central areas compared to the rest of Vietnam?

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 23:39

Yeah, I would say it does have both. Um, I gotta keep reminding myself that from Hue City here, if the way the crow flies over there to Laos is only about 50k.

Niall Mackay: 23:49

No way.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 23:49

and yeah, the start of the mountains. is about, I would say 10k to the west. That's where the mountains begin, and then it just goes straight up. And, um, but in the meantime, right around Hue City here, as the map goes, um, this particular area where the city is built is super flat. Super flat. So for growing rice, this whole area is perfect. Just perfect. And as a result too, we have a lot of lakes. Uh, the Tom, or the Tom Yang Lagoon is the largest, uh, brackish water lagoon in all of Southeast Asia. First, second, or third. And, uh, yeah, so that would be a perfect example of being right there on the flatlands. So yeah, we do have a little mix of both. So they're both correct.

Niall Mackay: 24:33

And I love it. You must get to go out of, I mean, I know Hue is not like Saigon. It's not a big bustling city, metropolitan city, but I assume you still like to get out of the city quite often and see nature, which I'm very jealous about. Cause again, here in Saigon, if we see a tree, we saw a squirrel one time and we're like, Whoa, it's a squirrel. You get so excited with like the smallest, I actually not even joking, like last week or the other day was with my wife and she went, Whoa, there's a lot of birds about here. And I was like, Oh yeah, so there are like, we get excited if we just see any wildlife at all.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 25:03

No, and I think that everyone could stand to do that a little bit more, but I understand that there's a lot of different interests out there. One interesting aspect, too, is a friend of mine, his name is Henry Herbert, he actually is a botanist and a plant and flower guy, but he ended up, uh, over the course of about three years, wrote a book, uh, documenting, uh, A lot of different medicinal plants that are only in Central Vietnam. He just poured his heart into this. The bibliography was about 35 pages long. one way or another he focused on about 200 different plants and it was just the first resource ever made in English. Uh, about a lot of this stuff. Um, but one way or another, I, I of course bought a copy and I brought that around to my Vietnamese friends and family. And of course my wife is from a village outside of town. So every time we visit the family, we're out there in the mountains, you know, on the streams with the buffaloes. And, uh, one way or another, I enjoy bringing that book out and talking with the older folks out there. Cause they know every single one. amount of knowledge these people have, it's a galaxy. It's mind blowing. So I guess that one book opened my eyes to the depth, you know, that's not just a bunch of trees and a couple of mushrooms. Oh no, no, no, no. You could do a whole PhD on just what you see right there. It's, it's wild. So I think appreciating the depth. You know, but, but depth of the culture in the world comes in a lot of different ways and flavors. Nature is only one of them, you know.

Niall Mackay: 26:32

And what about wildlife? Do you have much wildlife out there? There's always water buffaloes, which I still get impressed when I see a water buffalo. They're an incredible creature, but what other wildlife do you have up there?

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 26:43

this is really a paradise, uh, for birds and bugs. You know, I would say. Uh, bugs in particular, including butterflies. Um, not exactly right here, uh, around Bac Ma, but up in the north around Ninh Binh, they have a butterfly park. And if you go at the right season, it is just clouds upon clouds. Uh, oh yeah, it's one, it would be one of those influencer, you know, Instagram like wet dreams. Oh man. So I would say that, but, um, the beauty of the birds, I think, is you can hear them. So even if it's at night or especially right at dusk, even from my house right where we live right now, I can just go outside and then just hear them. You can hear five or six different types and you know, they all are either mating calls or yelling to each other or moms and babies and you know, so I guess, uh, the, just hearing it. You know, it's something that really jumps out and, uh, and you're right. There aren't many animals around, uh, it, it is true. There was a lot of years where animals were poached, no doubt about it. Absolutely. No doubt about it. And a lot of species went extinct here in Vietnam. Exactly. Because of that. Uh, with that said, if you look in the last 10 years across Vietnam and across Asia and across the world, I would say there's a lot heavier emphasis on conservation, especially that of. unique animal species and resources and all sorts of different things, huh?

Niall Mackay: 28:06

Well, we just had James Jalokia on recently, and I would advise anyone to go back and check that he does a lot of photography and he's starting up an NGO to help with conservation and we had a really good chat about Exactly similar. What you're seeing, he says the government's doing so many amazing initiatives to try and help with conservation. And I'm excited that, you know, while Vietnam is developing, as we talked about quickly, uh, it's good that they're recognizing the environment as well. They could probably always do more. Every government in the world can do more, but it's good that that that's being recognized as well. Bringing it back to Hue City. It's really interesting to hear how much that has developed. I mean, I've been to like, you go to Phnom Penh, you go to Laos, you go anywhere, you just see development happening so quickly. I even had a walk around my neighborhood this morning when I took my dog Biscuit to daycare. And on the way back, I must've seen at least five construction projects going on just in the neighborhood of like individual buildings, not like big high rises, but you're just, It's 30 in the morning, and there's just construction going on everywhere. And for good or for ill, right, obviously it's a bit of a tax on the environment, but it's happening. So it's crazy to watch. But to go back to what I was originally going to ask, so what is Hue City like and what is there to do as a tourist and as a local in the city?

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 29:26

Hey, sure, sure. There's a lot to, a lot to chew on there. And well, um, one thing that I could say, I could start here. Uh, there was a mayor, uh, right about 10 years ago. His name is Phan Ngoc Thao, and he was really, really well respected because he's one of those old guys,

Niall Mackay: 29:42

very much.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 29:45

has this vision to make way into this beautiful, romantic city. So one of those, out of many initiatives he did, was build, uh, riverside parks along the entire river. And to put it in perspective, when he first started, there was about 2 or 3 kilometers worth of parks, only on one side. Uh, but by now, there's over 15K. And it goes all the way to the Tien Mu Pagoda, both sides, you never have to cross a road, everything under a bridge, all handicap accessible, you know, things like that. Other initiatives include Four Seasons of Flowers, um, where they grow flowers and every, every month they have beautiful flowers strewn about the city, which helps out the local farmers and beautifies the city, that kind of thing. I would say a lot of those initiatives, um, from him. Um, have really carried forth and are all real. And in a lot of ways, uh, shoot, we have probably three busloads of Koreans that believe that Hue is the most romantic city in the world. And this is their Instagram worthy city. It's like the equivalent of Venice, you know, in an American's eyes. And, uh,

Niall Mackay: 30:50

That is amazing that I can't wait to come back and see that and see that change as well. If you were a tourist coming to Wey, I imagine most tourists are coming there for just one or two nights. If you're just there for one or two nights, what would you advise to do during that time? And would you advise to stay longer? Because I imagine not many people stay in Wey for more than one or two nights.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 31:19

You are right, that it is very common. A lot of people do indeed come by for one or two nights, and that's fine too. Yeah. Obviously I'm highly biased, uh, and I would love it if folks stay for a month and I would show them, uh, 30 days of adventure in a row. But with that said, uh, one of the absolute easiest is if you, uh, are sitting around downtown, you'll eventually have one of those motorcycle guys come up and ask to give you a, a tour around the town. And most of the time it's a great deal. You know, for whatever amount of money, let's say 500k, so let's say 20, they'll drive you around for a whole day. You can just tell them what you want to see. And that is the easiest, most turn key way to do it. And, uh, you don't really need to plan ahead very far. In fact, they'll have a whole list of things that you can check out, and you can kind of, I don't want that, I do want that, you know, whatever. Thumbs up, you're out. Uh, so in that regard, I would say that's by far the easiest way to do it. So it's nothing specific. I know you'd like to have a nice specific one, but man.

Niall Mackay: 32:21

That is a good one, but let's be honest, not everyone is going to do that because some people might be with their family or they might not be. I mean, a lot of people are scared to get on a bike as well. If you show up and wait, because my memory is so hazy from. As I said, 2016. I know it's the Perfume River, is that what it's called? And I was going to ask, why is it called the Perfume River? And I mentioned the Citadel and some of the pagodas, but can you list off, what are some of the main things that you want to do when you come to Wey?

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 32:48

Sure. Um, if you, it really all depends on what you're interested in. If you're into really, uh, art and crafts, I would say like they're, um, they have silk embroidery museum and a walking street of different crafts. That's outstanding.

Niall Mackay: 33:03

Wow.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 33:04

terms of history, I would say, yeah, the, the Citadel, which isn't. It's only a couple hundred years old, but it is absolutely majestic. Yeah. And a very fun walkthrough. Um, what I would actually say is actually getting on a boat, as I mentioned before, is an outstanding plan, especially if you have a family, especially, uh, whenever my friends and family come in, we rent a boat every time. and I, that will actually bring you to yes. have a tour guide and a person go with you to the Citadel itself, and all the way out to the Tien Mu Pagoda in that example. folks even want to go further. So, um, those are a few great examples. Now the Abandoned Water Park is one that comes up, it's pretty much on everyone's list out here.

Niall Mackay: 33:46

Oh, I forgot about this. I've heard this. Tell me more about that. I forgot all about that one. I've seen that. Yeah.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 33:52

Oh yeah, it's pretty much a guarantee. It's a four out of five chance that a backpacker is going to the abandoned water park when they come here. But gotta say, I, of course I went, I'm not that impressed. I don't get it. I don't, I don't get why people want to go there. It's exactly what it sounds like. It's a abandoned water park, covered in garbage with a bunch of broken down stuff, that's it. And, uh,

Niall Mackay: 34:13

to ask, can you explain it to me what it is, but you've just done it. That, that is literally it. You can't use the slides. You can't do anything.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 34:20

Nope, you go there and take some pictures, that's it. Yeah, and then people complain about the dirt and lack of services, and there's no bathrooms. Anyway, with that said, I was just going to point out that the ride there is way more interesting. Hell, uh, in fact, there's a lake right next to it, and going to hang out next at the lake itself, bring a SUP board, get a, have a boat on the water, that is way more fun. There's even a Buddhist college right next to it. This isn't on the tourist docket, but There's a new Buddhist college, which is actually the largest in central Vietnam, a university for monks and nuns. Anyway, that's out in the mountains and they have cafes and coffee shops there. So you can actually go and have coffee with nuns and monks and, and whatnot, right next door to the abandoned water park. So again, on the way there, the trip there is way more interesting. So I would

Niall Mackay: 35:11

That's a really good tip.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 35:14

Check it out if you really want to tick that list, but I've never had anyone left, never once have people left there and been like, I am so glad that was the coolest thing I've ever seen. That's never happened. They're like, all right, I did it. Check. So it's, it's a lie. Yeah, there's a

Niall Mackay: 35:34

park. We've seen it all over YouTube and blah, blah, blah. And then we go and we're like, this is absolutely rubbish. Well, it's a good tip. So we won't go now. So what would you say is the biggest difference between Hue and then the other two major cities, Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City?

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 35:48

lot of differences. Um, well, first of all, the density thing. I mean, if we do the math, uh, Saigon, I think is sitting up there around 4, 000 people per square kilometer. Hue is more like 200, know, so we're like 20 times less density. So yeah, it's, so traffic problems almost go to zero. Um, that's, that's one thing is, uh, you don't have that scale. Likewise, I can cross the entire city by bicycle in 15 minutes. Pretty much. I can be anywhere in town in 15 minutes. And that's very difficult to say in Saigon. Uh, so I think that accessibility, no matter all of my friends, all of the work, all the place I hang out are all within 15 minutes. Uh, and I would say going back to the parks, uh, it's very bike friendly in the sense that you can, I can just follow rivers, you know, everywhere that we go and avoid traffic and all that. But, uh, another major advantage I would say, aside from, you know, the obvious small is yeah, the cost of living is less. There's no doubt about it. There's absolutely no doubt about it. Uh, the house that I'm living in now is three and a half mil. So you figure in dollars, that's about 150 a month. we're

Niall Mackay: 36:58

Holy moly.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 36:59

month. Yeah, I know it's too friendly. Yeah. You

Niall Mackay: 37:04

That's incredible.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 37:06

all in, we might be about, uh, uh, let's say 200 a month. um, I think that that's a pretty big factor. You know, um, food certainly is way less. They still have soup for 10K, uh, coffees for 7K, if you look around. So I, oh yeah, they still exist. Oh yeah. I,

Niall Mackay: 37:24

Making the face because I was actually, sorry, I was making the face because I was actually going to ask how much is a coffee and how much is soup because it is something that gets mentioned, you know. Even the area I live in Saigon, I got, I've been told it's expensive. So you'd pay 20k. I mean, even right. So my local come time place that I go to, which is not even that good come time. I'll be honest. It's like 50k. And the, one of the guys I know that lives here as well, but he's Vietnamese and he's from another suburb in Saigon. And he's like in my home suburb, this would be like 25, 30 K and it's 50 K here. So Saigon prices are more, I mean, Even my coffee guy that I go to used to be 17k last year and then it went up to 20k and I was like we probably should have gone up because 17k is too cheap but now you're saying you can get it for like 7k and I remember when I got here you'd probably get it 10k 15k so it doesn't, I was talking to somebody about this recently. Because I'm like, ah, prices haven't gone up that much, but I'm such an naive idiot because he's like, yeah, you don't think it's gone up too much, but from 15k to 20k is a 30 percent increase. And if you are not making much money, that is a massive increase. And I was like, oh man, I feel like an idiot. Oh yeah, that is quite a big increase. Hmm.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 38:37

would say, although the, um, yeah, you're right. I'm really more on your side. It's all cheap. It's all negligible. It's all cheap enough to where I don't have to count the coffees, the beers, the little foods, the banh mis. You don't even have to count that in the budget. It's just, you know, there is, there is a bit of an advantage to, I think, uh, when it does come to like working and teaching, um, a lot of my friends, um, And I, on occasion, also do a lot of English teaching out here. sounds a little ironic to go to a smaller city in order to find opportunities, but the truth of the matter is a lot of these, let's say, outlying towns outside of the main city here have zero foreigners living in that area at all. So that means, uh, if you're willing to go 10 minutes out of town, you're the only person that they'll ever hire for everything. So there's almost no competition in a lot of cities, you know, in a lot of areas around here. So there are a lot of people that are able that might have a hard time teaching, you know, in a bigger city, but actually find it easier and find more schools and more opportunities, uh, being in a smaller town. You know, that does happen on occasion. So, um, yeah, when you combine cost of living, less time to transport yourself. And in my opinion, more opportunities. What's not to love.

Niall Mackay: 39:57

I'll see you next year. I'll be up there. I'll be making podcasts and way. No, but we're talking about food, which is a good, good way to go. I want to ask about the food in central Vietnam because like everything in the world, we lump everything under one label like Vietnamese food is amazing. I've said it, I still say it, but then you live here and you realize, Oh, is different by region. And I know that in the North and in Hanoi, it's generally more savory, saltier. And in the South Saigon, it's sweeter, which I didn't realize until I was working with someone who came down to Saigon from Hanoi and we got hot pot. There was a big group of us. We were all working together and he couldn't eat it because it was too sweet. And I, because I had no real comparison, I was like, wait, what? That's not sweet. It's hot pot. And then I had the taste of it, and I was like, oh, now I taste it. It's super sweet. And because I think in Hanoi they use salt more than they use sugar, and here they just add sugar to everything. What's the cuisine like, and what's unique to Hue?

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 40:56

Sure, sure. Well, I did work with, um, Amtok Vietnam, you know, but either way, Fine Cuisine, one of the Vietnam TV shows. And they actually have, gosh, you know, A few hundred episodes. And I would say about 20 of them, just about Hue. So to really talk about all of it would be tricky, but a few things I could zoom into is one, um, there's a, we would call them Royal Recipes. There's a legend that, uh, the King long ago wanted to have a unique meal every single day of his life, never have the same meal twice. So people would research from around the world, you know, they bring the best recipes from the South, from the North, from other countries, other cultures that they encounter. And, uh, over time, the king's favorite foods, the ones that he gave the thumbs up over, they open restaurants and are available right here in the city. there's a lot of meals that would be called, like, royal meals in a lot of ways. Uh, so there's a whole lineage and a whole history of that. UNESCO, uh, they recognized, uh, about five World Heritage Sites out here, and one of them is poetry all about cuisine, especially having to do with, uh, um, royal recipes and so forth. So I would say there's a lot of that and just a lot of variation that you don't see in other areas. Um, the, the chè, uh, which would be like the sweet soup or like a pudding, they, uh, I love that as a quick dessert. to zoom into another great example is hen, which is like these mini clams, these little baby clams the size of your fingernail. Uh, they are harvested here locally, uh, right out of the river. And they are endemic. This is the only place in the world that they live. either way, they're sustainably farmed, and they've been farming them for the last, you know, 200 years. uh, so there's a lot of, like, 14 generations of making hen, you know, here in the city and those ingredients are available. So I would say Boon Hen, Com Hen, Me Hen, you know, the noodles, they have their unique recipe and that's one of my favorite foods in the whole city. I have that probably two bowls a day and, uh, oh, they're still letting that go for 10k a bowl. Absolutely. Um, so that would be a great example that really jumps out. Uh, that's one of my favorites and real easy to find H E N Boon Hen.

Niall Mackay: 43:11

Amazing. I'll be looking for that then when I come up next time. Brad, this has been amazing. If you're watching on YouTube, you will see how much of a big smile I've got on my face. I really love this conversation. It gets me so excited about Vietnam. I obviously love it here. I've been here for a long time. It's a roller coaster like anywhere in the world. You have your ups and downs, but overall, definitely it's a great place to live in. And I get reminded about it every time I talk to someone like this. Like yourself and we do a podcast like this together and I'm like, right, I've got to go see more because like everyone, you get stuck in this, the same place. So I'll let you know as soon as I'm coming up to where, which hopefully will be next year sometime. So I'm looking forward to that before we go quickly. Tell me why should a tourist come to way?

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 43:49

If you really want to round out your Vietnam experience, you know, I think it's important to go to the big cities. It's important to check out the mountains. It's important to check out the beaches. But I do think that Hue, especially given its history and the fact that it does have such that varied amount of nature. The different aspects of nature to check out. I think for those who love waterfalls, you know, who love to hear the sound of the birds, you know, and love to feel that ocean on their feet, this is just a perfect place, uh, to come out and really spend, I would say at least a week and just relax and let yourself live.

Niall Mackay: 44:22

Finish any better than that. Thank you so much, Brad. This has been amazing. Remember, go to avianampodcast. com to follow the podcast. Make sure you turn on notifications, follow, subscribe from wherever you're tuning in from so that you never miss an episode. And if you did like this episode and you want to share it with someone else, that would be amazing. Let someone else know about this podcast. And best of all, let Leave a rating as long as it's five stars. If it's less than five stars, don't do it. Don't do it. Just leave a rating. If you think it's good, it would really, really help us as well. And make sure you go to patreon. com forward slash a Vietnam podcast. If you want to become a Bap Sao Deo and become part of the Vietnam podcast community, Brad, thank you so much. Thank you for listening. This has been awesome. Cheers.

Brad 'Bao' Hirsch : 45:04

Cheers there, Niall. Thanks a lot, buddy. We'll see you next time.