First Nations Conversations, Episode 1: Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley joins Jadzia Stronell to share her journey in language revitalisation, community work, education, and healing. She reflects on truth-telling around the Blackmans Point massacre, the responsibilities of academic engagement with Aboriginal histories, and speaks on her own stories of resilience.

Known in the community as Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley (Anjilkurri), a proud Birrbay/Dhanggati woman. She has 40 years’ experience working with Aboriginal people in education, land rights, cultural and heritage, caring for Country, women’s business and government and community organisations. As an active Aboriginal Elder, Aunty Rhonda promotes the revival of culture through language and practices. She advocates for Aboriginal languages to be learnt, spoken, taught and integrated into every-day life. Aunty Rhonda values the sharing of stories to teach cultural expressions, learn from others and connect to other people’s life journey. She uses poetry as a medium for truth telling, sharing culture and to highlight the impact of colonisation.

Chapters

• 0:25 Acknowledgment of Country
• 0:52 Introduction to Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley
• 7:10 Language journey
• 16:05 Truth-telling around Blackman's Point Massacre
• 36:12 Academic Journey
• 57:20 Djiyagan Dhanbaan: Strong Sister Movement

Transcript

Jadzia Stronell  00:23

I'd like to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which each of us are on today. I acknowledge that I record on stolen land, the land of the Biripi, and I pay my respect to elders past, present and emerging. As an organisation committed to the sharing of history across New South Wales, it is important to acknowledge that this land holds rich and complex histories that stretch back tens of thousands of years, long before British colonization. Sovereignty was never ceded. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. My name is Jadzia Stronell. I am a Gamilaraay woman and the First Nations Project Officer for the History Council of New South Wales. This marks the first episode in our new interview podcast series, First Nations Conversations, that looks at First Nations histories of resilience, survival and resistance. Today, I am here in conversation with Dr Aunty Ronda Radley. Across this interview, we'll hear about her own history of resistance that honors culture, language and truth. 

So, can you tell me your name and where you are from?

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley  01:24

Barraba Yitjirr, Aunty Ronda, also known as Anjilkurri. Ngatha, I'm a strong Biripi and Dunghutti woman. 

Jadzia Stronell  01:39

And would you like to share a little bit about yourself?

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley  01:42

Yeah, I was born here Port Macquarie, also known as Guruk. And yeah, I love this place. I love Port Macquarie. I've walked all over this land and where we're positioned today, and TAFE was one of my playing areas.

Jadzia Stronell  02:05

And can you tell us a little bit about the work you do in the community here in Port Macquarie.

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley  02:13

The work I do in the community, there's so many layers of stories. It depends how far you want to go back. All that work I've done in the community, it's really made me the person I am today. A lot of hardships in getting a job here in Port Macquarie, because being Aboriginal and perceived as a certain person is very difficult. It was like who you knew rather than who you were. So in the earlier parts of my life, there was lots of challenges. I decided to work in the community because I knew there needed to be changes for our people. I just didn't want our people just to survive, I wanted them to thrive. I acknowledged there would need to be some changes in the education system. I suppose my first step in was in education, working with the community, because if you're working with Aboriginal students, you're working with the families as well. I was the first, what they probably would call now, an Aboriginal education officer, but I was only employed for one day a week, employed to do pastoral care for Aboriginal students. Of course, they pay me for one day a week, but I think I worked 24/7 with some of those families. Those families were connected to me through their bloodline or just community, family. As Aboriginal mob, we tend to look for that connection. It’s pretty amazing to be able to fulfil the role of that job, to have a closer look what was happening in education. I had made lots of friends with teachers and with school staff which gave me a different overview. It gave me an insider view what was happening, what needed to happen, and what needed to change. In those days, there was ASSPA (Aboriginal Student Support Parent Association), but it was about supporting the school getting a little bit of funding to support Aboriginal students. So that committee was made up of parents and school staff. They decide where that funding was going to go. I was a member of ASSPA, and then later on, I was the founding member of the local AECG, the Aboriginal Education Consultative Group. I think we really needed to change things and advocate for more funding to establish a more permanent support mechanism for our students. Later on, fast track, all the schools now have an Aboriginal education officer. In my day, you weren't seen as an Aboriginal person, and there was no Aboriginal history taught in the schools, so you really felt invisible. Now it's all changed. That was my step into community, and then I went on to work in the land council for land rights, culture and heritage. I worked in housing for a while. I worked in the justice system and with national parks. We're always trying to initiate change. I felt there still needed to be a greater understanding of Aboriginal history and culture. Community service, I just loved it. I mean, it's so really draining working with the mob sometimes because there's really not enough of you to go around. Some of those issues that families and communities were dealing with were huge. 

Jadzia Stronell  07:10

Can you tell us a little bit about your journey with language? So when did that journey begin for you? 

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley 07:18

I grew up with a little bit of language, words here and there, and we didn't really understand that it was Aboriginal language. It was just family language where we talked different ways at home and then obviously, when you went to school, you didn't use those words because people couldn't understand what you were talking about. But I do remember laying up with my Nan. She's beautiful Dunghutti woman. We used to lay up in bed and have all these little yarns. And she did say to me one of her regrets was not teaching her children the language because she grew up with Dunghutti fluently spoken around her. Although she understood language, she chose not to speak it fluently. I think she believed that she should have retained that and to pass it on. Going back in her days where a lot of the children were removed because of culture, especially the language, it was a reason for the welfare to come in and remove the children. So there was a lot of fear around, passing on language. Some of the old people used to come to family and visit. I heard some of those old people speaking language. In 2010, it was offered here at TAFE as a Cert One in Gathang language, and Jeremy Saunders was our first teacher, beautiful cultural man from Taree. So that was the start of my journey. Many family members in that class, so it was really a little bit tricky, sort of trying to find where you fit in. Because of those cultural protocols, as a younger family member, yeah, I was always taught to listen, rather than to speak up, and only speak up when you invited to, so it was a bit tricky being in a classroom with all family. I found it very traumatic and very very sad because I recognised what we did lose, which was that language, those cultural practices. It was hard for me, it was really difficult, and I chose not to be the teacher. Jeremy's dream was that his students will go on to be the teachers. I had the teaching qualification, I worked in TAFE, but I just I wasn't ready for it. My daughter stepped up, and I was the teacher coach for the teacher and the students in the first language class here. She went walk about, so I had to step up. And that’s where it all started, my healing, yeah, I would say it's healing. I taught the cert one, cert two, and really tried to put it out there to the community the value of revitalising language. Later on, there was an opportunity for me to obtain a scholarship to do a master's in research. I felt like I was done but obviously not. I knew that if I committed, it was a lifetime journey. It becomes a big part of who you are, and culture and language sort of wrap around each other. And I think it's really made me more stronger in my culture.

Jadzia Stronell  13:02

So my next question is what does it take to keep language alive? So what do you, what work do you do to keep it alive? And you might have covered on that a little bit before, but also, what are the challenges you faced in keeping language alive as well?

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley 13:20

For me, it's, it's like flipping a lens. When you speak language, it's like you have a different lens. Everything's connected to the natural world. It’s going from English mind to more of a, I say culture. And when I say culture, I mean Aboriginal culture, an Aboriginal cultural mind. So even in speaking language, you sort of got to give yourself to time to flip that lens. Sometimes it's just not automatic, because it's a different way of thinking and being in the world. So that's a challenge in itself. What I do is, if I'm driving or walking somewhere, and I think of something, how would I say that in language? And that keeps me sort of current in language, but also allows me to recognise what I don't know in language. Language is very complex in ways that it's grammatically different than English. For me, the challenge is to get our mob to start learning language. That’s happening now. We've got a lot of people that just want to learn the language, Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal. Yeah, it's exciting. That's where we wanted to be. That had taken a lot of commitment and time to grow because it was something that I believe past generations pushed back against, because of that welfare policy of removing our children. The past generation held a lot of trauma around that. There was a different thinking in the community: 'No, you shouldn't bring language back' or 'Could you bring language back?' and 'Should we bring language back?' There was a lot of people thinking different things. I came to the conclusion that I just really had to centre myself and decide what I wanted to do, and acknowledge at times, there would be a lot of challenges.

Jadzia Stronell  16:05

I wanted to move on to Blackman’s point. If it's okay, I'd like to ask about your truth-telling work around Blackman’s point massacre. When did you first hear the history of Blackman’s point massacre? And what is this history? What does this history mean to you?

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley  16:23

Blackman’s point is a mark on a map. The northern and the southern sides of the Hastings River, at a specific point. That place is where the highway used to be. There were two ferries that serviced that highway. When I was little, I remember being very little. I lived there with my mum and dad in a little village, a little community. I remember that as a very, very, very small child in one of the floods, I was lifted up upon a wardrobe. So that's how high the water was coming in through the house. And then I remember living there with my auntie and uncle. I was removed from my mum for a time, so I was a foster child. There was a lot of visitors coming in and out of the community, and there was talk about a massacre at Blackman’s Point. And I remember seeing, I can see it now as I talk to you, an image like a spirit image, and it wasn't a person, but it appeared like a person. Anyways, talking to one of the aunties, and I was telling her about this, what I was seeing and I said, ‘I feel it was sad.’ And she said, ‘Oh, it might be because of the massacre that happened here.’ So I learned a little bit more, just snippets of conversations. When I had spoken to my mum later on, she said that that's what was told through the generations, that story. It was sort of handed down. My grandfather went to the Hastings Council and wanted that massacre to be acknowledged, and there was a lot of pushback. Nothing really happened. The family would sort of try and move that along, to get some sort of recognition. In 2008, there was a couple of people that worked in the Hastings Council and really wanted to pick that up and honor my grandfather, honor the history of that place. So they called a community meeting, just get a sense of what was needed to move forward. I was working at the Hastings council at that time. I remember going to the meeting, and when we walked into the meeting, there was all these people, white people, there. We didn't know who they were but as soon as we walked in, they started raising their voices, saying ‘This didn't happen, this didn't happen.’ And we were pretty confused about what was going on because we had some other community members, non-Aboriginal community members, that wanted to come in and support us. There were quite a few people coming into the meeting. And the Hastings council officers there that initiated the meeting, they were sort of bit confused too. ‘What’s happening here?’ Because all these people were very vocal about saying this didn't happen, and saying quite clearly to us, ‘Where’s your proof.’ So we were a bit put back, and we left our own meeting. Why these people turned up, we later found out they were residents of Blackman’s point, and they actually got an invitation. A staff member at Hastings Council, they defaced our flyer that was sent out to the Aboriginal community and then sent it to the residents. So we went up into my grandfather's place and had a meeting trying to work out what was happening. And then later the Hastings council officers came up and told us what had happened. Yeah, that was really big for us. And I think then in my heart, I made the commitment. I went and done few things. I came back, and I was at a meeting that had nothing to do with culture and heritage. I just happened to be talking to someone next to me and they were a manager in culture and heritage, and I mentioned Blackman's point, and she said to me, ‘I'd like to follow that up with you.’ That partnership with culture and heritage just sort of move that forward. We had a couple of uncles that I work with. Uncle Billo voiced what he would like to see happen at that place, some signage to talk about what happened there. And then we didn't quite get to the paperwork, because there's a bit of paperwork involved getting an Aboriginal name place. Then uncle Lindsay, he stepped up and then we still didn't get there to the paperwork, a lot of the talking, which is the Aboriginal way. It doesn't happen overnight. Then we spoke to my brother, Mark, and he passed. The one that was left was Uncle Link, and we started again. He passed. Mum was the other person that was really supportive of it. We started the paperwork. While we're doing that, we're filming and documenting people's story around Blackman’s point. So that was a big thing that really kept us focused because we had this footage, we had footage of my uncle Billow and Uncle Lindsay talking to it. This is unfinished business. After the meeting, with the residents having a lot of pushback, there was talk about it in the community. The community was really pushing back against it, saying: ‘We don't want that documented. This is not a massacre place.’ Where we end up landing is that this is truth-telling, and this is all our history, so we need to do it. I need to do it to honor my family. This is only my story, because there's other family members that have different stories around this. But for me, it was important to get it registered as an Aboriginal name place. It was marked on the map but it didn't have no story. That story needed to be told. We had this footage, we did a small documentary, and then we invited the residents to come to the viewing of that documentary, Blackman’s point, so that their voices can be heard, but in a place where we all felt safe, and so they could see our side of the story. Why was this important to us? I think how you deal with conflict, you invite people in. That went really well, a lot of support and stuff. And then eventually we got it through, signed off by the minister as an Aboriginal name place. For each of the family members that lived at Blackman’s point, we all have our own story. I did do a project with the historical museum here, Barayal Bila, which is the river story. It did talk to you about that experience. I think for me, it hasn't been laid to rest those spirits, those ancestors, and that needs to happen. I go out there and take students all the time. You talk about what's happening there. What keeps me going now around that story is everyone's so open to hearing it, hearing that truth, and there's no questions about ‘is that true or not?’ If you're out there and you hear the story, you know, it's true. Yeah, you just know. 

Jadzia Stronell 27:07

So you've talked a bit about how it has been to have this history recgonised, and also a little bit about, like, the journey you've been through with this. So I guess my next question would be, why do you think Australia still greatly resists knowing this part of our history? 

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley 27:24

Yeah, I think it's changing. I'm always hopeful. When I reflect on my childhood, growing up going to school and not been acknowledged. And some of the very unkind things that people would say to you. They didn't want to know, that's just black fella stuff. They didn't relate to it in any shape or form. Now everyone's so much more open to it, hearing the truth and hearing the possibilities that there could have been someone here before colonisation. There is this big transition. There is still a lot of racism but people are more open now. I go into schools and universities and talk to a lot of the students, they go: 'Why weren't we taught this at school?' I talked to about my grandmother going into servantry, my family being institutionalised as children, and their experiences. We talk about a stolen generation, the removal of children from our communities, and that impact that has on us as Aboriginal people. People are just, yeah, gobsmacked. How could this happen? And the thing is, it is our history. We're all Australians. It is our history. We’ve got to understand the past to bring us into the present and make decisions about our future, so we don't repeat those mistakes. Yeah, and what's happening in the world at this point in time? The genocide of people, but anyway, that's another conversation. We're more open to those stories.

Jadzia Stronell 29:50

People speak about land holding memory, especially in places marked by violence or loss. Do you feel that the land at Blackman’s point still holds that memory?

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley 30:02

Well, I do share a story from one of my cousins. He was working at the land Council at the time, and he talks about a visit from a woman that had an Aboriginal child, and she came in and said to him 'I want to know what happened at this place, Blackman’s point.' She said the little boy threw himself down and started crying and saying ‘stop the screaming, stop the screaming.’ So she sort of understood a little bit more once she was told what happened at that place. That’s probably one of many stories, because over the years, when I talked to my students, they would have a story about Blackman’s point, and they would say they thought something bad happened there. People had a knowing that something bad happened there. Our land holds our stories. Connect back into those stories. It's about just being still, Ngarrangga, just do that deep listening on country. When I do share this with other people, Aboriginal people, they've told me this inspires them to speak up. They know of places in their country that bad things have happened. They’ve been reluctant to come forward. I think it's really important, that all our stories matter. But definitely, I really connect with that land holds memory. For all people, we have the capacity to heal that wound. Visiting Blackman’s Point site I ask the students or community just to hold that place in their heart, and to send love out to those people that were killed there. I believe that can heal. 

Jadzia Stronell  32:40

I think we also talked a little bit about this, about how there's definitely been a shift in how people are listening now compared to before. I guess my next question would be, what has recognition of this history allowed for?

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley 32:58

We talk about land. We are part of the land. We are part of the landscape. Ngaya Barray, Mother Earth holds us all, and we're all interconnected. You heal country, you heal ourselves. You heal ourselves, we heal country. See the oneness. I really connect with that. I suppose being an older person now, I lived it in so many different ways.

Jadzia Stronell 33:32

How would you like to see the story of Blackman’s point honoured? And what part of that story do you hope people remember you for? What would your thoughts be on, how do you believe this history can best be commemorated further?

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley 33:48

We still haven't done ceremony around there. As a Biripi woman, I would really like to have ceremony around the women that were raped before being killed, because that would have been a very traumatic death. I believe when the time is right, the right people will come and that will be done. It's just three rocks at that site at the moment, so I'd like to see more signage telling the story. Uncle Billo, his wishes was that none of the land to be disturbed to honor the land. It still needs a lot of conversation in community about how we move forward. But it's the 200 years anniversary next year, so I'm hoping something will happen in 2026. Some people that did come to the viewing of Blackman’s point, community members said this is the first time they've heard this, and it's really hard for them, as non-Aboriginal people, to know that maybe some of their ancestors were a part of those killings. I think it's really important for us to sit with it and allow whatever to come up, because that's part of the healing.

Jadzia Stronell 35:39

So I'd like to move on to academia, if that's okay. So you've completed both a PhD and a master's in Indigenous language education. Could you tell us a little bit about why you chose to pursue these degrees?

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley 35:56

Well, being a single mum, having a baby when I was 18, I left school at 15, and I loved I loved learning. It wasn't the fact that I didn't want to be at school. I got a lot of joy out of learning different things, and that it was probably the system that I didn't like, teachers and some of their approaches to certain things. So I always felt it was unfinished business. I went on have four children, I did a number of TAFE courses, and I did my teacher training because I thought I could change the world. Basically thought, if I'm in the system, I'm more likely to change it. So yeah, a lot to say about my education and about other Aboriginal people's education. I did a graduate diploma in Adult and Community Education, so I felt like I did the groundwork for what was going to come next. When I was teaching language, it was like there's so much I didn't know. Being a teacher and not knowing all your content is quite challenging. So when I did the Masters in Indigenous language education, it was really to fill that gap. It also allowed me to understand the complexity of language revitalisation here in Gathang or Dhanggati, my grandparents language. So even in remote communities, they're still going through language revitalisation, documenting their language and ensuring that it's passed onto the next generation. It was exciting to learn. We did a unit on research, which I didn't really like very much. They were saying 'go and do a master's in research.' It was great because all the students supported each other. We all had our own story, our own passion of what we were going to do next. Then still in the language space, trying to teach language to community, to schools. It was great. I was committed. What drove me was my grandchildren. To speak another language, other than English, to my grandchildren, was pretty special. They could see it, feel it, and hear it on country. I'd always talk about how language comes from the country. It has the capacity to unite us as people, decolonising us. We're all in English all the time, the colonised language. When we speak Aboriginal language, our own language, it puts you in another mindset. You're back with the ancestors. 

Jadzia Stronell 40:34

Was there a particular moment or turning point that made you decide, yes, I'm going to take this path into research?

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley  40:43

I think it's because of the opportunity. I was sent the scholarship three different ways, and my grandmother always talked about things coming in threes. When it was the third time, the ancestors, they're telling me something here. I actually applied because it was an easy step in. I already done research in the miles course. My inquiry, what I was curious about was using hand talk to teach Gathang language. In my class, I had an Auslan teacher, Marie Hutchison. I would do the teaching of speaking the language, and then she'll do the sign for it. We do charades. It was just so much fun. Traditionally we had a hand talk. I had a conversation with someone across the room today at a meeting. He was saying to me, ‘Come on. Let's go talk.’ I was going, ‘Maybe, maybe I'll call you’. That sign language for when they're hunting, where you know they didn't want to speak, might have been in sorry business. Women are always making signs at each other. ‘No, he’s no good…He’s alright.' But I just want to acknowledge there was that really strong communicative way that that we would talk, not just for the spoken word. So I was interested. Was it helping them learn the language? I walked on country and asked the ancestors to give me guidance. My thesis was sort of talking to that guidance I received and cultural protocols. With academia, I was a fish out of water. I felt my way through, and made so many amazing friends. It was a means to an end, and what really pushed me through was the students that I taught, Aboriginal students. They always said they couldn't do things. I’d go ‘No, you can do it.’ So I had to walk my own talk. You always felt like a bit of an imposter. Now I mentor a number of Aboriginal young women doing their PhD. I’m talking through life experience, and I think that matters.

Jadzia Stronell  47:28

What do you think institutions still need to learn when it comes to teaching or supporting Aboriginal languages, and more generally, our communities?

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley 48:16

That word, Ngarrangga, which means must listen, a deep listening that I think we all can benefit from, because we live such busy lives. Sometimes we're not still enough. I think especially when you're working with Aboriginal mob, you need to listen, because it's not always about the spoken word. It's just about body language, how they move through the world, who they're connected to, who's their mob, where they're from, their country, and that always has an influence. I always say to non-Aboriginal people working for our mob that you've got to find the history of this place. You've got to find out the history of that family because that influences how you serve them. Especially in community service work, you're here to serve. You've got to know a little bit about the people that you're going to serve. Even if you're going in a community, find out about that community before you go into that community. Because if you know someone that knows someone in that community, you're more likely to get into the community and know the community a little bit more. We’re not as trusting because of some of the things that have happened in the past. When I was working in department Aboriginal Affairs as a young woman, I would say to the aunties, 'do you know anyone that lives in da da da, that community?' 'Oh, aunty da da da knows aunty da da da.' I'll go in there and I go tell them who I am, who's my mob, where I'm from, and Auntie knows blah blah blah. 'Okay, do you want a cup of tea?' So just to get you in the door, get you a cup of tea, and then you just yarn up from there. And that's what I always say to people. Don't go in there cold. Here to serve. Some people don't want to hear that, but they get it anyway.

Jadzia Stronell  50:14

What do you think researchers could learn from the knowledge and ways of working found in community? 

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley  50:22

Working in academia, I spoke to a lot of academics and a lot of people have advanced their career on the back of Aboriginal communities and Aboriginal people, hearing their stories and using their stories in different ways. It's all about extraction, going in and taking. What I was interested to hear, what did they give back? If we had a fire, everyone was welcome at the fire. And I don't know how some of those aunties made that food go around, but they did. If someone else came in, there was always a plate there for them, or a bit of damper or whatever was going. It was about getting people to think, think about that generosity and how they could give back. When you talk about story like we're sitting here, we're yarning up now, and you might walk away and you've got a story of talking to Aunty Rhonda, and I've got a story. Who owns the story? It makes me think about those things as well. When we talk about wisdom, it's about, you know, you learn something, you know you're doing something, and you gain some learning from that. And you do it again. It's knowledge. But then when you reflect on that experience, and sometimes you don't do that until you're older, you can talk to it in a different way, and it becomes wisdom. So I'm not saying young people can't be wise, because there is so many wise people, young ones out there, but it's about, how do we get that? How’s that wisdom accumulated over time? So you've got to open spaces and be open to some learning, to have that knowing, and then the wisdom comes because you have an experience with that knowledge. You use it in many different ways, and you can talk to it. 

Jadzia Stronell 54:24

And in what ways do you use this background in academia now and research with the work you do in community? 

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley  54:32

When I was talking about being there to mentor some of the young people coming through in academia. Just being there for them and share what I've learned over a period of time, some of that wisdom. I seen this black fella doctor, and I wondered how he got that doctor, or she got that doctor, that thing. Now I know. When I went to university, I was the first one in my family to go to university. When you're a PhD student, none of my mob knew what that was. The general community here in Port Macquarie obviously knew some of my struggles. So probably, being a young mum, they probably wouldn't have foreseen that as part of my future, being a doctor. There’s a lot of pride that I made it that far. My experience in TAFE expands over 30 years, so people have known me for a long time in some of the spaces. I think they have a lot of pride in me for making it and sticking with it. There's a lot of big challenges along the way. Don’t let those challenges define who you are.

Jadzia Stronell  57:18

Before we finish, is there anything that we haven't touched on yet that you might like to speak on or reflect on?

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley 57:25

Oh, there’s so much.

Jadzia Stronell 57:27

Yeah, we could sit here all day.

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley  57:30

I probably would like to say something about djiyagan Dhanbaan, strong sister, it’s a movement group. When you're going into something like the unknown, there's always a little bit of fear because you really step out of your comfort zone. We talked about support as my ancestors, but this group of amazing Aboriginal women, djiyagan dhanbaan, strong sisters, really held me in that period of time. I just want to acknowledge them, because at the same time that I was just doing all this stuff, PhD, and learning language, these women stepped with me into culture. They gave me purpose in so many different ways. I think that's really important that you have people around you that lift you up. Sometimes we don't have that. We have women or people that want to pull you down so it's really important to have women or community that lift you up. That's really important. 

Jadzia Stronell  58:59

Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today. It's been so delightful to have a yarn and yeah, thank you so much. 

Dr Aunty Rhonda Radley 59:09

Thank you.