{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":8.664,"endTime":10.364,"body":"Good morning, good evening,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":8.664,"endTime":10.364,"body":"wherever you are, and welcome"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":10.364,"endTime":11.693,"body":"back to the Enterprise AI Show."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":11.724,"endTime":15.024,"body":"This is your host, Aaron, and"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":11.724,"endTime":15.024,"body":"we are back to our interviews"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":15.024,"endTime":17.294,"body":"again after a short summer break."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":17.613,"endTime":23.884,"body":"Today's topic is how open source is"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":17.613,"endTime":23.884,"body":"reshaping the AI infrastructure stack."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":24.164,"endTime":28.443,"body":"We talk about Kubernetes, Kubeflow,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":24.164,"endTime":28.443,"body":"and then dig into a variety of"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":28.484,"endTime":34.553,"body":"topics at this intersection of AI"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":28.484,"endTime":34.553,"body":"infrastructure and open source."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":34.763,"endTime":40.643,"body":"Now, this one runs a little longer than"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":34.763,"endTime":40.643,"body":"usual, but it's worth it, and all of that"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":40.644,"endTime":42.573,"body":"comes up right after this quick break"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":46.392,"endTime":48.002,"body":"Today's show is sponsored by Nasuni."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":48.392,"endTime":51.102,"body":"There's a growing gap in AI right"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":48.392,"endTime":51.102,"body":"now between what's possible in"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":51.102,"endTime":54.502,"body":"theory and what successfully works"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":51.102,"endTime":54.502,"body":"at scale inside an enterprise."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":54.822,"endTime":57.282,"body":"The difference comes down"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":54.822,"endTime":57.282,"body":"to unstructured file data."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":57.672,"endTime":61.343,"body":"Many AI initiatives struggle because the"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":57.672,"endTime":61.343,"body":"file data they depend on is scattered,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":61.582,"endTime":65.773,"body":"unstructured, and disconnected from"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":61.582,"endTime":65.773,"body":"where and how work actually happens."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":66.152,"endTime":67.282,"body":"Nasuni changes that."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":67.602,"endTime":71.912,"body":"It brings your unstructured file data"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":67.602,"endTime":71.912,"body":"into a single secure foundation so AI,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":71.972,"endTime":76.202,"body":"both generative and agentic, can access"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":71.972,"endTime":76.202,"body":"it with the context, governance, and"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":76.202,"endTime":77.652,"body":"performance it needs in production."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":77.942,"endTime":80.413,"body":"Bring AI to where your"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":77.942,"endTime":80.413,"body":"unstructured data lives."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":80.773,"endTime":83.583,"body":"See what it takes to activate"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":80.773,"endTime":83.583,"body":"your data for AI and request"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":83.583,"endTime":85.683,"body":"a demo at nasuni.com/ai."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":90.009,"endTime":93.589,"body":"What does the outside world"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":90.009,"endTime":93.589,"body":"already know about your company?"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":93.919,"endTime":97.649,"body":"Cybercriminals could be seeing leaked"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":93.919,"endTime":97.649,"body":"credentials, compromised session"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":97.649,"endTime":101.57,"body":"cookies, exposed infrastructure,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":97.649,"endTime":101.57,"body":"and even impersonations of"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":101.57,"endTime":103.539,"body":"your brand and executives."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":103.959,"endTime":109.039,"body":"NordLayer Intelligence by NordStellar"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":103.959,"endTime":109.039,"body":"gives security teams visibility into"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":109.039,"endTime":114.639,"body":"those threats across the deep and dark"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":109.039,"endTime":114.639,"body":"web, data breaches, attack surfaces, and"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":114.649,"endTime":117.919,"body":"brand impersonation all in one platform."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":118.649,"endTime":122.429,"body":"Find out what attackers"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":118.649,"endTime":122.429,"body":"know before they can use it."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":122.819,"endTime":125.509,"body":"Visit"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":122.819,"endTime":125.509,"body":"nordlayer.com/intelligence/enterpriseai"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":128.189,"endTime":133.089,"body":"and use code enterprise10 for ten"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":128.189,"endTime":133.089,"body":"percent off your NordStellar plan"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":136.9,"endTime":140.611,"body":"And we're back, and"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":136.9,"endTime":140.611,"body":"as we promised, we're getting"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":140.62,"endTime":142.26,"body":"back into our interview series."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":142.29,"endTime":146.25,"body":"And to kick things off we have, uh,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":142.29,"endTime":146.25,"body":"somebody who's been in the industry a"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":146.25,"endTime":150.111,"body":"good bit but, uh, newly introduced to"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":146.25,"endTime":150.111,"body":"myself, and, uh, certainly we've had"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":150.111,"endTime":151.851,"body":"some great conversations here recently."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":152.32,"endTime":156.04,"body":"We are gonna be talking about open"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":152.32,"endTime":156.04,"body":"source today, and we've talked"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":156.14,"endTime":159.56,"body":"about open source a good bit on"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":156.14,"endTime":159.56,"body":"the show before, but we wanna talk"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":159.56,"endTime":165.201,"body":"specifically about how open source is"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":159.56,"endTime":165.201,"body":"reshaping the AI infrastructure stack."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":165.23,"endTime":170.21,"body":"And for that, we have David"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":165.23,"endTime":170.21,"body":"Aronchick, CEO at Expenso."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":170.221,"endTime":171.241,"body":"David, how you doing, man?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":171.87,"endTime":172.1,"body":"Good."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":172.1,"endTime":172.45,"body":"How are you?"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":173.041,"endTime":173.731,"body":"I'm good."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":173.74,"endTime":174.16,"body":"I'm good."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":174.17,"endTime":178.77,"body":"So first of all, you have"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":174.17,"endTime":178.77,"body":"super interesting background."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":178.771,"endTime":181.931,"body":"You know, I a lot of kind"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":178.771,"endTime":181.931,"body":"of accomplishments here."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":181.941,"endTime":185.65,"body":"First managing PM for Kubernetes,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":181.941,"endTime":185.65,"body":"co-founded Kubeflow, led"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":185.65,"endTime":187.601,"body":"open source ML at, at Azure."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":188.121,"endTime":194.001,"body":"Give everyone a brief introduction"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":188.121,"endTime":194.001,"body":"in how you became so involved in"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":194.081,"endTime":195.37,"body":"open source and the enterprise."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":196.271,"endTime":197.281,"body":"You know, it's kind of fascinating."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":197.451,"endTime":201.271,"body":"I really fell into it more than anything."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":201.431,"endTime":205.87,"body":"I, um, you know, was originally"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":201.431,"endTime":205.87,"body":"like a, a pretty hardcore"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":205.911,"endTime":207.781,"body":"Linux nerd way back in the day."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":207.781,"endTime":211.351,"body":"I installed whatever, Slackware"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":207.781,"endTime":211.351,"body":"and Debian, you know, when"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":211.441,"endTime":212.87,"body":"you used to get them on CDs."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":212.941,"endTime":214.53,"body":"Not DVDs, CDs."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":214.92,"endTime":218.41,"body":"Actually, I should actually"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":214.92,"endTime":218.41,"body":"probably have a, a boot on a one,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":218.53,"endTime":220.6,"body":"you know, 1.44 floppy somewhere."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":220.99,"endTime":226.581,"body":"But, um, uh, so I, uh, I, uh, but then"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":220.99,"endTime":226.581,"body":"I, I, I left the, you know, the just"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":226.581,"endTime":230.11,"body":"the open source and I, and one of my"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":226.581,"endTime":230.11,"body":"first two startups and, and went to"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":230.11,"endTime":233.07,"body":"work at Microsoft, and that's where"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":230.11,"endTime":233.07,"body":"I really got into, like, enterprise"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":233.08,"endTime":236.85,"body":"software, and I was doing a bunch of,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":233.08,"endTime":236.85,"body":"like, Linux stuff for them ev- even"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":236.85,"endTime":239.68,"body":"then, um, as they were building out,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":236.85,"endTime":239.68,"body":"you know, their own Linux strategy,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":239.68,"endTime":240.84,"body":"and so many folks were working on it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":241.21,"endTime":244.68,"body":"Then went off to do my other uh, my,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":241.21,"endTime":244.68,"body":"my third startup and, and, uh, came"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":244.68,"endTime":250.371,"body":"back out and, uh, I joined Amazon who"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":244.68,"endTime":250.371,"body":"was very, very big in, in Linux at"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":250.371,"endTime":254.41,"body":"the time, and then Chef, who obviously"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":250.371,"endTime":254.41,"body":"has an enormous, uh, enormously"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":254.411,"endTime":256.16,"body":"successful, uh, open source platform."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":256.59,"endTime":260.451,"body":"I, you know, I was always a big fan of"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":256.59,"endTime":260.451,"body":"it because the idea of, like, how you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":260.451,"endTime":265.261,"body":"bring people together is so powerful"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":260.451,"endTime":265.261,"body":"around software, and software is,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":265.631,"endTime":269.641,"body":"one of the most collaborative things"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":265.631,"endTime":269.641,"body":"you can, experiences in the world."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":269.661,"endTime":272.68,"body":"Like, you can take a pull"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":269.661,"endTime":272.68,"body":"request from anyone in the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":272.68,"endTime":274.581,"body":"world and it, it's just as good."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":274.96,"endTime":277.5,"body":"Um, all that matters is the code,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":274.96,"endTime":277.5,"body":"the quality, you know, whether or"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":277.5,"endTime":279.05,"body":"not it achieves the goals and so on."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":279.661,"endTime":285.19,"body":"So all of that was out there and then"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":279.661,"endTime":285.19,"body":"I just absolutely fell, luckily more"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":285.19,"endTime":286.54,"body":"than anything, into to Kubernetes."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":286.84,"endTime":292.22,"body":"Craig McLuckie, one of the co-founders had"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":286.84,"endTime":292.22,"body":"identified me and, and we started talking"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":292.22,"endTime":296.54,"body":"and he actually had to convince me to"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":292.22,"endTime":296.54,"body":"take on the Kubernetes job mostly because"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":296.54,"endTime":303.44,"body":"at the time people real- knew how deeply"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":296.54,"endTime":303.44,"body":"involved Google was in open source, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":303.44,"endTime":305.44,"body":"They were core contributors"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":303.44,"endTime":305.44,"body":"to the Linux kernel."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":306.1,"endTime":309.75,"body":"Uh, they had released a, a number of"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":306.1,"endTime":309.75,"body":"different amazing papers, you know, the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":309.76,"endTime":311.16,"body":"things that became Hadoop and so on."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":311.52,"endTime":316.055,"body":"But they really hadn't developed"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":311.52,"endTime":316.055,"body":"a Open source project first"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":316.265,"endTime":318.015,"body":"thing from inside Google."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":318.015,"endTime":323.165,"body":"You had, you had Angular and you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":318.015,"endTime":323.165,"body":"had, um, uh, not, um, I'm blanking."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":323.175,"endTime":324.295,"body":"Android, of course."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":324.585,"endTime":328.685,"body":"But those were either come from external"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":324.585,"endTime":328.685,"body":"or they were very, very localized."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":328.695,"endTime":331.404,"body":"So they, they didn't have the kind"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":328.695,"endTime":331.404,"body":"of reputation that they do now."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":331.774,"endTime":334.694,"body":"And Kubernetes came along and it felt"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":331.774,"endTime":334.694,"body":"like a science experiment, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":335.024,"endTime":338.984,"body":"Uh, you know, Docker was, at the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":335.024,"endTime":338.984,"body":"time, and, and someone will probably"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":338.984,"endTime":340.814,"body":"correct me, maybe six months old."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":341.184,"endTime":344.444,"body":"Um, so I was like, \"Ah, you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":341.184,"endTime":344.444,"body":"know, containers, like LXC sounds"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":344.445,"endTime":347.785,"body":"interesting,\" and obviously, you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":344.445,"endTime":347.785,"body":"know, zones and th- there's been"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":347.794,"endTime":349.284,"body":"a lot of, uh, history to this."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":349.624,"endTime":351.154,"body":"But anyhow, so Kubernetes is there."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":351.804,"endTime":355.964,"body":"I see a lot of value in just the idea"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":351.804,"endTime":355.964,"body":"of this distributed orchestrator."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":356.524,"endTime":359.674,"body":"Craig's like, \"Come on, you know, I got"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":356.524,"endTime":359.674,"body":"six other projects I gotta go work on."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":359.674,"endTime":365.154,"body":"You manage this, uh, for me for Google"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":359.674,"endTime":365.154,"body":"Cloud and launch the GKE project,\""},{"speaker":"David","startTime":365.354,"endTime":370.565,"body":"which I did. And then, uh, and then, you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":365.354,"endTime":370.565,"body":"know, just obviously, uh, the train, the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":370.565,"endTime":373.815,"body":"rocket ship left the station and, and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":370.565,"endTime":373.815,"body":"it was just immediately obvious that I"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":373.815,"endTime":377.855,"body":"was never gonna look back. After that, I"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":373.815,"endTime":377.855,"body":"was like, \"Well, you know, Kubernetes is"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":377.855,"endTime":380.264,"body":"great, but this AI sounds like a thing."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":380.574,"endTime":383.824,"body":"Somebody should work on that.\""},{"speaker":"David","startTime":380.574,"endTime":383.824,"body":"Nobody wanted to, and I know"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":383.824,"endTime":386.145,"body":"you're like, \"Really?\" Yeah."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":386.204,"endTime":388.824,"body":"In 2017, nobody wanted to work on AI."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":388.894,"endTime":391.464,"body":"We'd been through 14 AI winters."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":391.744,"endTime":394.254,"body":"Uh, everyone's like, \"AI is dead.\""},{"speaker":"David","startTime":391.744,"endTime":394.254,"body":"I was like, \"I think there's gonna"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":394.254,"endTime":395.684,"body":"be an AI thing for Kubernetes."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":396.044,"endTime":399.814,"body":"I'm gonna invent it with three, two"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":396.044,"endTime":399.814,"body":"other co-founders from Google and a"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":399.814,"endTime":400.945,"body":"bunch of people in the community.\""},{"speaker":"David","startTime":401.134,"endTime":402.644,"body":"And so we created Kubeflow."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":403.045,"endTime":405.734,"body":"And then, you know, obviously that,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":403.045,"endTime":405.734,"body":"uh, did a bunch of work on that."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":405.734,"endTime":408.304,"body":"Then I went over to Microsoft,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":405.734,"endTime":408.304,"body":"lead OpenAI strategy."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":408.534,"endTime":414.304,"body":"And then while I was there, OpenAI, uh,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":408.534,"endTime":414.304,"body":"the, has the ChatGPT-3, uh, moment and,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":414.304,"endTime":416.134,"body":"um, everything transformed from there."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":416.134,"endTime":421.405,"body":"So, you know, I, I wish I could say"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":416.134,"endTime":421.405,"body":"I, I drew myself into it, I, I…"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":421.465,"endTime":422.325,"body":"This was a plan."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":422.475,"endTime":424.255,"body":"I'm telling you, it was"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":422.475,"endTime":424.255,"body":"just, uh, random luck"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":425.059,"endTime":427.079,"body":"Yeah, well sometimes"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":425.059,"endTime":427.079,"body":"that's the best, right?"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":427.079,"endTime":431.049,"body":"And I, I distinctly remember, yeah, the"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":427.079,"endTime":431.049,"body":"early days of Kubernetes when, yeah, to"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":431.049,"endTime":436.589,"body":"your point it was like Docker Kubernetes,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":431.049,"endTime":436.589,"body":"and, and Mesos were all like- Absolutely"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":437.129,"endTime":439.339,"body":"… k- competitors for a hot moment until-"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":439.369,"endTime":440.739,"body":"I mean, we, we-"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":440.739,"endTime":441.157,"body":"Kubernetes kind of took it all"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":441.157,"endTime":445.839,"body":"over … you know, i- in the team"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":441.157,"endTime":445.839,"body":"we genuinely would've been totally okay if"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":445.919,"endTime":448.869,"body":"Docker or Mesos had picked up Kubernetes."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":448.869,"endTime":452.489,"body":"And in fact, we offered"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":448.869,"endTime":452.489,"body":"it to both of them, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":452.529,"endTime":457.469,"body":"We said, \"You take this. You lead"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":452.529,"endTime":457.469,"body":"it. Go.\" And, uh, neither wanted it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":457.489,"endTime":460.389,"body":"Now, again, now don't look at"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":457.489,"endTime":460.389,"body":"this as some kind of like, oh,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":460.389,"endTime":461.539,"body":"they made this terrible mistake."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":461.679,"endTime":464.139,"body":"There were lots of strategies"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":461.679,"endTime":464.139,"body":"there, and there was lots of"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":464.149,"endTime":465.699,"body":"good reasons to not pick it up."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":465.889,"endTime":468.789,"body":"Oh, we didn't, you know, it doesn't"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":465.889,"endTime":468.789,"body":"really like perfect fit for our"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":468.789,"endTime":470.689,"body":"platform, not this, that, and the other."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":470.919,"endTime":472.969,"body":"Those are perfectly valid reasons."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":473.509,"endTime":477.079,"body":"Who knows what along the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":473.509,"endTime":477.079,"body":"way caused Kubernetes to win"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":477.349,"endTime":479.019,"body":"versus, uh, these other ones?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":479.259,"endTime":480.069,"body":"Unclear."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":480.399,"endTime":483.849,"body":"But you know, it wasn't a bad decision,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":480.399,"endTime":483.849,"body":"it was just like, look, we have our own"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":483.849,"endTime":485.839,"body":"thing and we like it and we control it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":486.279,"endTime":487.869,"body":"It- those were also open source."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":487.879,"endTime":491.979,"body":"Swarm and Mesos were both open source"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":487.879,"endTime":491.979,"body":"as well, so it's not like it, one"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":491.979,"endTime":494.599,"body":"was open source and one wasn't,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":491.979,"endTime":494.599,"body":"it just happened that one won."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":495.249,"endTime":496.019,"body":"No, I agree."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":496.219,"endTime":499.309,"body":"So let's, let's kind of, 'cause"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":496.219,"endTime":499.309,"body":"we've talked about Kubernetes"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":499.459,"endTime":502.359,"body":"extensively over the years back"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":499.459,"endTime":502.359,"body":"when this was the Cloud Cast."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":502.859,"endTime":502.989,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":503.069,"endTime":507.099,"body":"Um, but I don't know that we"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":503.069,"endTime":507.099,"body":"ever did a show on Kubeflow."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":507.849,"endTime":511.499,"body":"And maybe that was exactly what"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":507.849,"endTime":511.499,"body":"you're talking about, like Kubeflow"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":511.499,"endTime":515.149,"body":"was almost maybe a couple years"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":511.499,"endTime":515.149,"body":"ahead of its time, if you will."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":515.149,"endTime":518.619,"body":"But- Oh, yeah … but tell- For"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":515.149,"endTime":518.619,"body":"sure … tell me a little bit about that."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":518.639,"endTime":523.559,"body":"Like, okay, the way I understand"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":518.639,"endTime":523.559,"body":"it is Kubeflow was like Kubernetes"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":523.569,"endTime":527.229,"body":"style orchestration for specifically"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":523.569,"endTime":527.229,"body":"for ML workflows, right?"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":527.229,"endTime":527.379,"body":"But-"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":527.409,"endTime":528.089,"body":"That's exactly it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":528.089,"endTime":529.409,"body":"That's exactly it … anyway."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":529.409,"endTime":530.929,"body":"And, uh, sorry, I'm doing a little,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":530.979,"endTime":531.839,"body":"No, no, please go"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":531.839,"endTime":531.879,"body":"ahead."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":531.879,"endTime":533.899,"body":"There's a light reflection that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":531.879,"endTime":533.899,"body":"I'm just catching right here."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":533.899,"endTime":535.489,"body":"No, you're, you are exactly it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":535.499,"endTime":537.969,"body":"So the, the year is 2017."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":537.989,"endTime":542.929,"body":"I have now been leading Kubernetes"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":537.989,"endTime":542.929,"body":"and GKE, uh, you know, having a great"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":542.939,"endTime":547.039,"body":"time, love the team, and I'm like,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":542.939,"endTime":547.039,"body":"look, I think there's a space here."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":547.039,"endTime":551.069,"body":"One, one of the things that Kubernetes"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":547.039,"endTime":551.069,"body":"really lacked was you would go"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":551.069,"endTime":553.259,"body":"in and I loved giving this demo."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":553.259,"endTime":558.589,"body":"I would go and I'd spin up whatever,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":553.259,"endTime":558.589,"body":"100 nodes on GKE in, in a minute"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":558.829,"endTime":560.859,"body":"for a customer, and they're like,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":558.829,"endTime":560.859,"body":"\"This is great. What do I do with"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":560.859,"endTime":561.849,"body":"it?\" I was like whatever you want."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":562.229,"endTime":562.959,"body":"It, you're great."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":563.049,"endTime":563.719,"body":"You now have this."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":563.909,"endTime":567.389,"body":"Go, have a good time.\" And the-"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":563.909,"endTime":567.389,"body":"that gap of like, okay, I have"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":567.389,"endTime":570.049,"body":"this general orchestrator, what do"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":567.389,"endTime":570.049,"body":"I do on top of that, is still, I"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":570.049,"endTime":571.619,"body":"mean, arguably still there, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":572.039,"endTime":576.799,"body":"And so what I wanted to do was"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":572.039,"endTime":576.799,"body":"pick a workload that I thought was"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":576.799,"endTime":582.159,"body":"going to be interesting valuable,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":576.799,"endTime":582.159,"body":"demo-able, all that kind of good stuff."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":582.885,"endTime":586.775,"body":"And at the time, um, I don't think"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":582.885,"endTime":586.775,"body":"Attention Is All You Need had come out."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":586.775,"endTime":589.255,"body":"I think that came out,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":586.775,"endTime":589.255,"body":"like, at the end of 2017."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":589.595,"endTime":594.995,"body":"But certainly, ML was already"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":589.595,"endTime":594.995,"body":"enormous in particular areas."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":595.005,"endTime":597.195,"body":"A lot of people say, oh, you know…"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":595.005,"endTime":597.195,"body":"I, I love to ask this question."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":597.415,"endTime":602.785,"body":"What's the first platform that has"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":597.415,"endTime":602.785,"body":"ever had a billion daily users using"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":602.785,"endTime":605.725,"body":"ML? And people are like, \"I don't"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":602.785,"endTime":605.725,"body":"know, ChatGPT?\" And I'm like, \"Nope."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":605.855,"endTime":607.735,"body":"The answer is Google,\" right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":607.915,"endTime":613.685,"body":"Google Search in 2012 was all… their"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":607.915,"endTime":613.685,"body":"indexing was all ML-based, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":613.825,"endTime":616.785,"body":"And they had lightweight e-e-inference"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":613.825,"endTime":616.785,"body":"models and things like that,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":616.785,"endTime":620.745,"body":"that allowed you to, present"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":616.785,"endTime":620.745,"body":"that, those, those 10 blue links."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":621.165,"endTime":622.125,"body":"Uh, nobody knew about it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":622.175,"endTime":625.245,"body":"It had this wonderful interface, but"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":622.175,"endTime":625.245,"body":"they had this amazing infrastructure"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":625.245,"endTime":629.775,"body":"called MLX that, that coordinated all"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":625.245,"endTime":629.775,"body":"these things together, and they started"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":629.785,"endTime":632.535,"body":"releasing these as public papers."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":632.685,"endTime":637.655,"body":"So go back and look at TFX from"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":632.685,"endTime":637.655,"body":"Google about, uh, using TensorFlow,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":637.875,"endTime":641.965,"body":"a way to string together all the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":637.875,"endTime":641.965,"body":"steps of a machine learning pipeline."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":642.245,"endTime":646.125,"body":"You wanna shape your data, you wanna"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":642.245,"endTime":646.125,"body":"control it, you want to, um, normalize"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":646.125,"endTime":650.745,"body":"it, you wanna split it into training and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":646.125,"endTime":650.745,"body":"inferent-- or training and test hold back."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":651.025,"endTime":653.235,"body":"You wanna tune your hyperparameters,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":651.025,"endTime":653.235,"body":"et cetera, et cetera."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":653.485,"endTime":657.401,"body":"There are all these, like, many"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":653.485,"endTime":657.401,"body":"steps involved Anyhow, and I--"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":657.441,"endTime":660.591,"body":"\"Look, this"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":657.441,"endTime":660.591,"body":"is a perfect fit for Kubernetes."},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":661.041,"endTime":664.961,"body":"It's multi workload, it requires"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":661.041,"endTime":664.961,"body":"loose coupling between the"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":664.961,"endTime":666.921,"body":"steps of the, the workloads."},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":667.261,"endTime":670.301,"body":"It, uh, is very hard"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":667.261,"endTime":670.301,"body":"to set up on your own."},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":670.311,"endTime":671.671,"body":"There is no simple way."},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":672.001,"endTime":673.831,"body":"It's like independently upgradable."},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":673.841,"endTime":676.091,"body":"Each component can be upgraded"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":673.841,"endTime":676.091,"body":"on its own, so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":676.311,"endTime":680.211,"body":"This is a Kubernetes workload, and"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":676.311,"endTime":680.211,"body":"it's a complicated one that will"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":680.211,"endTime":683.901,"body":"enable us to take Kubernetes to the"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":680.211,"endTime":683.901,"body":"next layer up.\" So that was the idea."},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":684.281,"endTime":687.741,"body":"I had a lot of trouble finding the"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":684.281,"endTime":687.741,"body":"right people inside of Google to help"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":687.741,"endTime":689.641,"body":"work on it, and outside of Google."},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":689.991,"endTime":693.141,"body":"Most internal people at Google"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":689.991,"endTime":693.141,"body":"thought that nobody was going to"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":693.161,"endTime":695.231,"body":"have their own ML pipelines at all."},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":695.661,"endTime":699.281,"body":"And that's where they went down some very,"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":695.661,"endTime":699.281,"body":"very innovative stuff that still is out"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":699.281,"endTime":704.101,"body":"there today around, uh, auto training"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":699.281,"endTime":704.101,"body":"and, and abstracting a bunch of things"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":704.311,"endTime":706.371,"body":"fine-tuning and so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":706.411,"endTime":708.491,"body":"But I still felt there"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":706.411,"endTime":708.491,"body":"was a self-hosted thing."},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":708.491,"endTime":710.521,"body":"I talked to a bunch of customers and"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":708.491,"endTime":710.521,"body":"they're like: \"Yeah, we actually have"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":710.521,"endTime":715.061,"body":"some self-hosted problems. We would love"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":710.521,"endTime":715.061,"body":"this.\" And so I ended up finding, uh,"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":715.061,"endTime":721.471,"body":"Jeremy Louie, um, who's now at OpenAI"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":715.061,"endTime":721.471,"body":"who had created a, uh, what's called a"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":721.471,"endTime":726.321,"body":"CRD, that's a custom resource definition"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":721.471,"endTime":726.321,"body":"for Kubernetes that allowed you to"},{"speaker":"my thought was like","startTime":726.331,"endTime":728.801,"body":"spin up a small TensorFlow component."},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":728.801,"endTime":731.961,"body":"\"Oh, what would this"},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":728.801,"endTime":731.961,"body":"look like if we expanded this a little"},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":731.961,"endTime":735.481,"body":"bit?\" Where it wasn't just that one"},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":731.961,"endTime":735.481,"body":"component, I think it was just training."},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":735.891,"endTime":739.161,"body":"That one component, but we, we tied"},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":735.891,"endTime":739.161,"body":"it to a notebook, a self-hosted"},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":739.161,"endTime":741.131,"body":"notebook or a self-hosted inference."},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":741.141,"endTime":742.121,"body":"What would that look like?"},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":742.511,"endTime":745.291,"body":"And he had some thoughts on it, and"},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":742.511,"endTime":745.291,"body":"we started like iterating on it."},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":745.461,"endTime":749.991,"body":"I then pulled in uh, Vishnu, uh,"},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":745.461,"endTime":749.991,"body":"Kannan from the, uh, uh, Kubernetes"},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":750.011,"endTime":754.471,"body":"team, who had done a ton of work"},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":750.011,"endTime":754.471,"body":"on, um, GPUs and other accelerators."},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":754.591,"endTime":756.191,"body":"He's the third co-founder of Kubeflow."},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":756.521,"endTime":761.561,"body":"And by September, we had like"},{"speaker":"And I was like","startTime":756.521,"endTime":761.561,"body":"something running on our machines."},{"speaker":"We're like","startTime":761.561,"endTime":763.951,"body":"\"Look, this actually"},{"speaker":"We're like","startTime":761.561,"endTime":763.951,"body":"feels like it's there.\" I had"},{"speaker":"We're like","startTime":763.951,"endTime":767.521,"body":"gotten a talk accepted to KubeCon."},{"speaker":"We're like","startTime":767.531,"endTime":770.551,"body":"That's back in the day when, when I could"},{"speaker":"We're like","startTime":767.531,"endTime":770.551,"body":"get t-co- talks accepted to KubeCon."},{"speaker":"We're like","startTime":771.793,"endTime":772.093,"body":"Um-"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":772.123,"endTime":775.113,"body":"I believe- And- I believe"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":772.123,"endTime":775.113,"body":"talks in KubeCon and acceptance is"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":775.113,"endTime":776.473,"body":"a running joke in the industry now."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":776.483,"endTime":777.393,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":777.613,"endTime":777.803,"body":"Go ahead."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":777.803,"endTime":778.113,"body":"Go ahead."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":778.113,"endTime":780.443,"body":"Um, and, and look, I, I was there."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":780.463,"endTime":783.363,"body":"I gave the first, whatever,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":780.463,"endTime":783.363,"body":"four keynotes at KubeCon, and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":783.363,"endTime":784.983,"body":"I cannot get my talks accepted."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":784.983,"endTime":789.033,"body":"So if you're out there,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":784.983,"endTime":789.033,"body":"like it happens a lot."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":789.293,"endTime":791.303,"body":"Anyhow, so we, we had a talk."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":791.513,"endTime":793.283,"body":"I changed the title of the talk."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":793.283,"endTime":794.533,"body":"I have no idea what the original talk was."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":794.533,"endTime":797.423,"body":"I changed the title, said, \"I'm gonna make"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":794.533,"endTime":797.423,"body":"this about ML.\" I think it was called Hot"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":797.423,"endTime":801.733,"body":"Dog or Not on Kubernetes, uh, which was"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":797.423,"endTime":801.733,"body":"a reference to the Silicon Valley show."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":802.013,"endTime":805.423,"body":"And, uh, by that December,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":802.013,"endTime":805.423,"body":"we had it launched."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":805.423,"endTime":808.083,"body":"We had, uh, several cloud"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":805.423,"endTime":808.083,"body":"providers signed up for it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":808.223,"endTime":809.453,"body":"Red Hat was signed up for it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":809.453,"endTime":810.793,"body":"Bloomberg was signed up for it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":811.063,"endTime":812.143,"body":"They were all testing it out."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":812.143,"endTime":814.293,"body":"They were all using it,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":812.143,"endTime":814.293,"body":"uh, and we got going."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":814.373,"endTime":816.893,"body":"But it really was, Kubeflow was"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":814.373,"endTime":816.893,"body":"almost nothing at the start."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":816.923,"endTime":822.343,"body":"It was a, uh, uh, y- a notebook, a,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":816.923,"endTime":822.343,"body":"a, a training CRD, and if I remember"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":822.343,"endTime":825.983,"body":"correctly, an inference CRD, and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":822.343,"endTime":825.983,"body":"those were very, very loosely coupled."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":826.213,"endTime":832.173,"body":"It wasn't until the spring that the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":826.213,"endTime":832.173,"body":"k- the, uh, Cloud AI team at Google"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":832.443,"endTime":836.943,"body":"submitted a very large PR, pr- uh,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":832.443,"endTime":836.943,"body":"pull request on, uh, pipelining them"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":836.943,"endTime":842.063,"body":"together to make it very easy to take"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":836.943,"endTime":842.063,"body":"your data from… Like, once your"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":842.063,"endTime":845.593,"body":"notebook finished auto-triggering a"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":842.063,"endTime":845.593,"body":"training and triggering auto-training"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":845.593,"endTime":846.893,"body":"the, uh, triggering the inference."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":847.303,"endTime":849.733,"body":"Uh, now obviously there are"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":847.303,"endTime":849.733,"body":"many, many more elements."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":849.773,"endTime":853.213,"body":"Uh, K-Kubeflow has just"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":849.773,"endTime":853.213,"body":"graduated from CNCF and so on."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":853.903,"endTime":859.813,"body":"I still, by the way, think that this"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":853.903,"endTime":859.813,"body":"declarative rollout of pipelines is"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":859.813,"endTime":863.753,"body":"still a unsolved problem in a lot"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":859.813,"endTime":863.753,"body":"of ways, but it's obviously much"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":863.753,"endTime":867.863,"body":"further along, and Kubeflow has both"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":863.753,"endTime":867.863,"body":"achieved enormous success, of which"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":867.863,"endTime":869.533,"body":"I have very, very little to do."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":869.853,"endTime":872.493,"body":"But also it's inspired a lot"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":869.853,"endTime":872.493,"body":"of other people to build, uh,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":872.793,"endTime":874.023,"body":"really inspiring stuff as well."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":874.943,"endTime":879.063,"body":"So, uh, let me ask you this,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":874.943,"endTime":879.063,"body":"'cause I, I wanna both relate it back"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":879.063,"endTime":881.953,"body":"to our topic and then ask a follow-up"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":879.063,"endTime":881.953,"body":"question to it all at the same time."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":881.953,"endTime":889.433,"body":"So I would say, at least as far as I'm"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":881.953,"endTime":889.433,"body":"aware Kubeflow was, was one of those"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":889.463,"endTime":893.033,"body":"early days, like you were saying, like"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":889.463,"endTime":893.033,"body":"it's even pre-GPT and, you know- Yeah,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":893.033,"endTime":893.503,"body":"yeah"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":893.593,"endTime":895.213,"body":"the big, the big aha moment, right?"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":895.253,"endTime":900.213,"body":"And so, like how everything has advanced"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":895.253,"endTime":900.213,"body":"forward and, and specifically talking"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":900.213,"endTime":904.663,"body":"about AI infrastructure and, and open"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":900.213,"endTime":904.663,"body":"source within AI infrastructure, tell me"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":904.663,"endTime":910.333,"body":"a little bit about like that generation,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":904.663,"endTime":910.333,"body":"that first generation of infrastructure."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":910.353,"endTime":913.913,"body":"And like obviously we talked about what"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":910.353,"endTime":913.913,"body":"it got right, but like what did it…"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":913.913,"endTime":917.783,"body":"I won't say miss, because it's hard"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":913.913,"endTime":917.783,"body":"to predict where this has gone."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":917.793,"endTime":922.803,"body":"But like where'd, where is the current"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":917.793,"endTime":922.803,"body":"wave, like meaning like agents and"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":922.833,"endTime":925.603,"body":"inferencing at the edge and all of"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":922.833,"endTime":925.603,"body":"this, like where is it a little lacking?"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":925.843,"endTime":929.233,"body":"Like where is the gaps and"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":925.843,"endTime":929.233,"body":"where's the growth potential?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":930.615,"endTime":934.585,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I so my"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":930.615,"endTime":934.585,"body":"biggest thing, my bugaboo, and,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":934.585,"endTime":938.755,"body":"and everyone's got their thing,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":934.585,"endTime":938.755,"body":"is I want repeatability, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":938.755,"endTime":941.555,"body":"I'm a big declarative infrastructure guy."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":942.125,"endTime":947.505,"body":"I wanna reduce the things that can"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":942.125,"endTime":947.505,"body":"be varied, imperative and envi-"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":947.535,"endTime":951.075,"body":"runtime specific as much as possible,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":947.535,"endTime":951.075,"body":"because those are the things that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":951.075,"endTime":952.505,"body":"are almost impossible to debug."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":952.805,"endTime":957.805,"body":"They're impossible to roll out"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":952.805,"endTime":957.805,"body":"reliably and so on, and, uh, that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":957.805,"endTime":959.075,"body":"becomes a really big problem."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":959.085,"endTime":965.195,"body":"Now, what I was trying to do at"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":959.085,"endTime":965.195,"body":"the time was solve that problem"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":965.545,"endTime":968.065,"body":"via pure Kubernetes, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":968.065,"endTime":969.965,"body":"Because that's what it-"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":968.065,"endTime":969.965,"body":"Kubernetes provides, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":970.175,"endTime":975.605,"body":"It says, \"You give us a docker"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":970.175,"endTime":975.605,"body":"with a, a, a specific hash and a"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":975.605,"endTime":980.515,"body":"specific deployment contract, and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":975.605,"endTime":980.515,"body":"it will reliably, it declaratively"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":980.515,"endTime":981.395,"body":"roll that thing out for you.\""},{"speaker":"David","startTime":981.395,"endTime":982.165,"body":"And that is good."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":982.745,"endTime":986.855,"body":"But what I think we… One of the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":982.745,"endTime":986.855,"body":"things we missed is that wouldn-"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":986.935,"endTime":988.755,"body":"was not gonna be enough, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":988.975,"endTime":996.535,"body":"Somehow you needed a language that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":988.975,"endTime":996.535,"body":"spoke below that as well as above that."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":997.015,"endTime":1000.395,"body":"So below, I mean, like, what"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":997.015,"endTime":1000.395,"body":"CUDA drivers are you on?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1000.475,"endTime":1003.065,"body":"What does your memory"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1000.475,"endTime":1003.065,"body":"bandwidth actually look like?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1003.275,"endTime":1004.945,"body":"All, you know, what is the OS version?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1004.955,"endTime":1005.755,"body":"All that kind of stuff."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1005.755,"endTime":1007.695,"body":"How do you declaratively name that?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1007.765,"endTime":1011.915,"body":"That was often a different tool, and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1007.765,"endTime":1011.915,"body":"there were a lot of people who were like,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1011.915,"endTime":1014.705,"body":"\"Okay, well, we'll do this in Terraform,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1011.915,"endTime":1014.705,"body":"and Terraform will take care of this"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1015.065,"endTime":1019.455,"body":"on this cloud, but it will hand off to"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1015.065,"endTime":1019.455,"body":"another layer.\" And I was like, \"No,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1019.495,"endTime":1021.815,"body":"man, y- we gotta wrap this up together.\""},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1022.225,"endTime":1023.625,"body":"'Cause you- even today, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1023.985,"endTime":1028.865,"body":"I just saw yesterday, Kubernetes or,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1023.985,"endTime":1028.865,"body":"uh, NVIDIA released a, uh, a cluster"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1028.865,"endTime":1033.905,"body":"readiness um, toolkit, and I gotta"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1028.865,"endTime":1033.905,"body":"dig in but, uh, some very, very smart"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1033.905,"endTime":1034.995,"body":"people have been working on that."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1035.785,"endTime":1038.585,"body":"Uh, like some former Kubernetes,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1035.785,"endTime":1038.585,"body":"some former Mesos folks working"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1038.585,"endTime":1040.845,"body":"on it, so I do trust them that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1038.585,"endTime":1040.845,"body":"they are- they're gonna get it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1040.995,"endTime":1044.115,"body":"But it's a perfect example where it's"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1040.995,"endTime":1044.115,"body":"like, you know, if you go to cloud A,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1044.125,"endTime":1048.065,"body":"you go to cloud B, you go to on-prem"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1044.125,"endTime":1048.065,"body":"C and you're like, \"I… Okay, they're"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1048.065,"endTime":1052.975,"body":"all running whatever, Ubuntu 24.02,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1048.065,"endTime":1052.975,"body":"and da, da, da, da, da, da,\" right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1053.035,"endTime":1055.635,"body":"They… We should be the same,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1053.035,"endTime":1055.635,"body":"and it turns out they're not."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1056.045,"endTime":1060.235,"body":"And just declaratively naming"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1056.045,"endTime":1060.235,"body":"that makes things really hard."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1060.605,"endTime":1061.615,"body":"Why do people care?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1061.615,"endTime":1065.565,"body":"Well, one, a lot of your folks are"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1061.615,"endTime":1065.565,"body":"just gonna run into big challenges"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1065.885,"endTime":1069.115,"body":"because the the, the… They're gonna"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1065.885,"endTime":1069.115,"body":"be like, \"Why did this perform this"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1069.115,"endTime":1072.565,"body":"well here or that well there?\" Or maybe"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1069.115,"endTime":1072.565,"body":"just longitudinally over time, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1072.815,"endTime":1076.845,"body":"\"Hey, you know, we ran this, this"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1072.815,"endTime":1076.845,"body":"training set last week, and it w- you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1076.845,"endTime":1080.055,"body":"know, here was the results, and we"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1076.845,"endTime":1080.055,"body":"ran this training set today, and here"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1080.055,"endTime":1083.215,"body":"are the results, and the results are"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1080.055,"endTime":1083.215,"body":"different, but nothing changed as near"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1083.215,"endTime":1086.405,"body":"as we can tell,\" and it turns out some"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1083.215,"endTime":1086.405,"body":"random ass Python package is different."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1086.445,"endTime":1087.915,"body":"You're like, \"Oh, crap,\" right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1087.915,"endTime":1089.395,"body":"So that's a problem."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1089.725,"endTime":1094.397,"body":"If you want my vision for the world-"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1089.725,"endTime":1094.397,"body":"This is how you get past things"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1094.397,"endTime":1096.047,"body":"like scientific re- reproducibility."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1096.057,"endTime":1100.187,"body":"This is how you get to actual"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1096.057,"endTime":1100.187,"body":"intelligence being shared."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1100.557,"endTime":1104.537,"body":"Go and talk to any scientist in"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1100.557,"endTime":1104.537,"body":"the world, and they do this weird"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1104.547,"endTime":1107.757,"body":"archeology when they pick up a paper."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1108.417,"endTime":1113.297,"body":"Even if it's got everything listed"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1108.417,"endTime":1113.297,"body":"in there about, all the details"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1113.337,"endTime":1117.367,"body":"of the experiment in incredible"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1113.337,"endTime":1117.367,"body":"detail, it's something is wrong."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1117.417,"endTime":1120.087,"body":"They didn't measure the humidity"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1117.417,"endTime":1120.087,"body":"or, oh, they didn't realize that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1120.087,"endTime":1121.937,"body":"a truck drove by, or whatever."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1122.107,"endTime":1124.587,"body":"There's just so much non-reproducibility."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1124.587,"endTime":1128.707,"body":"And so I'm not saying that we're gonna"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1124.587,"endTime":1128.707,"body":"get there, but if you, if you started"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1128.707,"endTime":1132.377,"body":"to build, to build things like this,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1128.707,"endTime":1132.377,"body":"if you said, \"Hey, in order to run this"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1132.507,"endTime":1136.777,"body":"scientific paper, this is specifically"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1132.507,"endTime":1136.777,"body":"the entire environment that I used"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1136.787,"endTime":1139.437,"body":"to set up,\" you can reproduce that."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1139.557,"endTime":1142.507,"body":"And if you get different answers,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1139.557,"endTime":1142.507,"body":"which you will 'cause the world"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1142.507,"endTime":1145.117,"body":"is not reproducible, at least"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1142.507,"endTime":1145.117,"body":"you can narrow down where the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1145.117,"endTime":1146.957,"body":"reproducibility failures have occurred."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1147.297,"endTime":1150.157,"body":"And I just, I have such a"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1147.297,"endTime":1150.157,"body":"huge inspiration for that."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1150.177,"endTime":1154.697,"body":"But the, going all the way back, I thought"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1150.177,"endTime":1154.697,"body":"th- to your question, what did we miss?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1155.367,"endTime":1160.027,"body":"We missed that reproducibility is still"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1155.367,"endTime":1160.027,"body":"a massive unsolved problem, that it"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1160.027,"endTime":1163.227,"body":"spans far beyond what Kubernetes does."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1163.427,"endTime":1166.847,"body":"But I would argue that we're"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1163.427,"endTime":1166.847,"body":"just as bad today, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1167.037,"endTime":1172.027,"body":"Like, and maybe even worse because"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1167.037,"endTime":1172.027,"body":"so many solutions, endpoints out"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1172.027,"endTime":1174.587,"body":"there right now are just black boxes."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1174.837,"endTime":1177.927,"body":"You don't own the data, you don't own"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1174.837,"endTime":1177.927,"body":"the training, you don't own the version."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1178.237,"endTime":1182.257,"body":"I, I love, you know, I'm u- I"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1178.237,"endTime":1182.257,"body":"use these, uh, AI tools all the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1182.257,"endTime":1187.537,"body":"time, and they update every day."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1187.957,"endTime":1190.357,"body":"Every single day they update, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1190.417,"endTime":1192.607,"body":"I come in, I click that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1190.417,"endTime":1192.607,"body":"button every single time."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1192.607,"endTime":1194.057,"body":"Oh, update required, just restart."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1194.407,"endTime":1195.227,"body":"Every single time."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1195.507,"endTime":1197.867,"body":"You're telling me that I'm gonna get"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1195.507,"endTime":1197.867,"body":"the same results as I gave yesterday?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1197.867,"endTime":1198.857,"body":"Of course not, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1199.077,"endTime":1201.707,"body":"Because there's no, like, transparency,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1199.077,"endTime":1201.707,"body":"and there's no way to inject"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1201.707,"endTime":1202.877,"body":"determinism and things like that."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1202.987,"endTime":1204.407,"body":"So I we're still facing that today."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1204.587,"endTime":1205.927,"body":"I thought we could get it done then."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1205.987,"endTime":1206.607,"body":"We d- couldn't."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1207.037,"endTime":1208.767,"body":"And the failure there was twofold."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1208.767,"endTime":1212.857,"body":"One, it was hard to detail everything,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1208.767,"endTime":1212.857,"body":"but two even if you could detail out"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1212.857,"endTime":1216.187,"body":"everything, there wasn't a unified tool"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1212.857,"endTime":1216.187,"body":"to take a bunch of metadata and say,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1216.187,"endTime":1217.597,"body":"\"Okay, now I know how to blow this out.\""},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1217.967,"endTime":1221.027,"body":"Today, we're running into that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1217.967,"endTime":1221.027,"body":"problem even worse because so much"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1221.027,"endTime":1223.927,"body":"of the data is hosted, so much of"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1221.027,"endTime":1223.927,"body":"the models are hosted, you know, and,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1223.927,"endTime":1227.177,"body":"and, you know, there we have even"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1223.927,"endTime":1227.177,"body":"less, less reproducibility available."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1227.907,"endTime":1228.197,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1228.217,"endTime":1232.607,"body":"Well, okay, so this is, uh, super"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1228.217,"endTime":1232.607,"body":"fascinating because, coming from an"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1232.607,"endTime":1240.217,"body":"infrastructure background, and one of the"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1232.607,"endTime":1240.217,"body":"biggest things I see is AI infrastructure,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1240.847,"endTime":1244.117,"body":"to your point, like a lot of thing, things"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1240.847,"endTime":1244.117,"body":"you just mentioned, AI infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1244.117,"endTime":1247.667,"body":"today done properly is hard on-prem."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1247.677,"endTime":1252.747,"body":"Mm. Um, you know, and, uh, I'll go back to"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1247.677,"endTime":1252.747,"body":"actually it has a, a, a Kubeflow tie-in."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1253.147,"endTime":1257.827,"body":"Uh, my first, my days in Nutanix,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1253.147,"endTime":1257.827,"body":"you know, we did a Nutanix AI, you"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1257.827,"endTime":1261.267,"body":"know, obviously on Nutanix converged"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1257.827,"endTime":1261.267,"body":"infrastructure kind of AI thing,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1261.267,"endTime":1264.097,"body":"and it was based off of Kubeflow and"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1261.267,"endTime":1264.097,"body":"open models and things like that."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1264.667,"endTime":1265.037,"body":"Basic."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1265.037,"endTime":1269.783,"body":"But the biggest p- problem we had was"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1265.037,"endTime":1269.783,"body":"Even with convergent infrastructure,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1269.793,"endTime":1271.613,"body":"damn, it was hard to get that stuff going."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1271.613,"endTime":1272.983,"body":"And the amount of people-"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1271.613,"endTime":1272.983,"body":"Absolutely … that have the"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1272.983,"endTime":1274.773,"body":"top to bottom expertise is hard."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1275.153,"endTime":1280.373,"body":"And so, like, the, I guess my question"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1275.153,"endTime":1280.373,"body":"to you is, like, okay, where is the"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1280.373,"endTime":1282.303,"body":"biggest opportunity for all of this?"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1282.343,"endTime":1286.933,"body":"Because in my mind, uh, you know,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1282.343,"endTime":1286.933,"body":"open source and, on-prem or not"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1287.003,"endTime":1292.063,"body":"is kind of losing ground right now"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1287.003,"endTime":1292.063,"body":"because of the closed vendor control"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1292.063,"endTime":1294.103,"body":"platforms because of the simplicity."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1294.123,"endTime":1300.643,"body":"Like that click to reload, if I use that"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1294.123,"endTime":1300.643,"body":"term, is both a blessing and a curse."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1300.973,"endTime":1301.383,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1301.843,"endTime":1303.583,"body":"Look, I, I gotta be honest"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1301.843,"endTime":1303.583,"body":"with you- And so, like, tell"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1303.583,"endTime":1304.193,"body":"me a little bit about that."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1304.203,"endTime":1304.733,"body":"Like, where's your"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1304.733,"endTime":1305.053,"body":"head at around that?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1305.053,"endTime":1305.073,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1305.133,"endTime":1307.613,"body":"You're putting your finger"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1305.133,"endTime":1307.613,"body":"exactly on it, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1307.973,"endTime":1310.053,"body":"You know, I w- I, I love Linux."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1310.053,"endTime":1314.083,"body":"I've used it for many, many, many"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1310.053,"endTime":1314.083,"body":"years and FreeBSD and all these things."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1314.453,"endTime":1320.793,"body":"They have never, never gotten set up"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1314.453,"endTime":1320.793,"body":"and reliable, like ease of use right."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1321.213,"endTime":1322.593,"body":"And I don't know why."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1322.603,"endTime":1325.933,"body":"I mean, like, arguably, like the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1322.603,"endTime":1325.933,"body":"affordance, the, the interface that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1325.933,"endTime":1327.663,"body":"they're looking for is different, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1327.843,"endTime":1329.573,"body":"I want to go in."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1329.573,"endTime":1333.903,"body":"I remember the first time I ac- uh,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1329.573,"endTime":1333.903,"body":"I, I have something in the, uh, uh,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1333.913,"endTime":1339.543,"body":"Linux, uh, core tree, uh, in, uh,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1333.913,"endTime":1339.543,"body":"19, uh, 98, something like that."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1339.873,"endTime":1345.343,"body":"I had a cheapo, you know, $40, which"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1339.873,"endTime":1345.343,"body":"was incredibly cheap at the time,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1345.343,"endTime":1349.843,"body":"uh, Ethernet card, and the version"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1345.343,"endTime":1349.843,"body":"of Linux that I was using was wrong."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1349.903,"endTime":1351.643,"body":"Or, and the, the driver was wrong."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1352.123,"endTime":1354.203,"body":"It kept crashing when I compiled it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1354.233,"endTime":1359.503,"body":"I went in, I found the code, I debugged"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1354.233,"endTime":1359.503,"body":"it, and submitted it as a patch."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1359.513,"endTime":1361.253,"body":"It was just some stupid thing."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1361.723,"endTime":1365.181,"body":"And, um, it's submitted, and I'm"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1361.723,"endTime":1365.181,"body":"still very proud of that today."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1365.181,"endTime":1365.613,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1365.613,"endTime":1367.013,"body":"It's probably long, long, long, long gone."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1367.203,"endTime":1368.033,"body":"It's like two lines of code."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1368.753,"endTime":1372.863,"body":"That is a-- So that was incredibly"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1368.753,"endTime":1372.863,"body":"useful for me 'cause I'm a giant nerd."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1373.393,"endTime":1377.503,"body":"If you, if I actually had a job, that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1373.393,"endTime":1377.503,"body":"would've been incredibly miserable, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1377.503,"endTime":1378.763,"body":"That's a terrible user experience."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1378.763,"endTime":1380.333,"body":"I just wanna click a"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1378.763,"endTime":1380.333,"body":"button and have it upgrade."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1380.833,"endTime":1384.783,"body":"So I would argue that, that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1380.833,"endTime":1384.783,"body":"a lot of these things they're"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1384.783,"endTime":1386.462,"body":"trying to serve two masters."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1386.482,"endTime":1390.213,"body":"They're, they're trying to serve, again,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1386.482,"endTime":1390.213,"body":"and this goes to not just Linux, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1390.213,"endTime":1392.472,"body":"Windows and Mac, and everyone"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1390.213,"endTime":1392.472,"body":"has the same problem."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1392.762,"endTime":1395.812,"body":"Some people are just like, \"I have a job"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1392.762,"endTime":1395.812,"body":"I wanna get done,\" and some people are"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1395.813,"endTime":1399.132,"body":"like, \"No, I want to solve this and make"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1395.813,"endTime":1399.132,"body":"this optimized,\" and so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1399.382,"endTime":1402.472,"body":"And by serving those two masters,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1399.382,"endTime":1402.472,"body":"you run into this, this challenge."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1402.503,"endTime":1407.772,"body":"Now, to your point about the, the, um,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1402.503,"endTime":1407.772,"body":"you know, click to upload and things"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1407.772,"endTime":1413.472,"body":"like that, look, 99.9% of people"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1407.772,"endTime":1413.472,"body":"have a job to do and these things"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1413.482,"endTime":1416.082,"body":"are simply functions of that job."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1416.422,"endTime":1419.852,"body":"\"Oh, I'm gonna use AI for this, and I'm"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1416.422,"endTime":1419.852,"body":"gonna use Excel for that. I'm gonna, you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1419.852,"endTime":1424.633,"body":"know, use whatever Sed or, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1419.852,"endTime":1424.633,"body":"R Studio. I have no idea how to do this"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1424.633,"endTime":1429.012,"body":"other thing.\" Those are just tools in"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1424.633,"endTime":1429.012,"body":"their the pursuit of their overall goal."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1429.617,"endTime":1433.587,"body":"The failure is that we ask them"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1429.617,"endTime":1433.587,"body":"to go and understand what CUDA"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1433.587,"endTime":1435.017,"body":"driver they're running, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1435.297,"endTime":1439.567,"body":"And so it's that mixing that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1435.297,"endTime":1439.567,"body":"I think ends up being this,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1439.607,"endTime":1440.877,"body":"this incredibly hard challenge."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1441.057,"endTime":1448.283,"body":"And If we wanted to make progress against"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1441.057,"endTime":1448.283,"body":"this, it would be for those people,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1448.533,"endTime":1454.533,"body":"giving them the ease of use to, have"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1448.533,"endTime":1454.533,"body":"that, \"Hey, I'm- I have other jobs to do."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1454.533,"endTime":1459.003,"body":"I'm just gonna work on this.\" But"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1454.533,"endTime":1459.003,"body":"also give them the visibility or the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1459.003,"endTime":1463.613,"body":"transparency or even the voice to"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1459.003,"endTime":1463.613,"body":"say, \"Hey, I now want you to dip this"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1463.623,"endTime":1465.123,"body":"environment that I'm using in Amber."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1465.593,"endTime":1469.153,"body":"And I want you to be able to"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1465.593,"endTime":1469.153,"body":"reproduce this thing 100 times"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1469.153,"endTime":1470.883,"body":"over because I need this."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1470.923,"endTime":1474.313,"body":"I can't have a single thing change"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1470.923,"endTime":1474.313,"body":"here, 'cause if it does, then that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1474.313,"endTime":1477.323,"body":"means I need to go back and redo"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1474.313,"endTime":1477.323,"body":"everything.\" Having them be able to"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1477.323,"endTime":1481.043,"body":"do those two simultaneously, that is"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1477.323,"endTime":1481.043,"body":"the era, the, the problem for the era."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1481.273,"endTime":1484.223,"body":"And what I'll say is to just to up the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1481.273,"endTime":1484.223,"body":"level of challenge, and again, this is"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1484.223,"endTime":1487.243,"body":"what we're working on Expanso, but it's"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1484.223,"endTime":1487.243,"body":"just generally a problem don't think"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1487.253,"endTime":1491.213,"body":"about it as, people may have heard the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1487.253,"endTime":1491.213,"body":"term SBOM, Software Bill of Materials."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1491.543,"endTime":1494.173,"body":"I- there's something I'm really pushing"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1491.543,"endTime":1494.173,"body":"on, another open source project that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1494.173,"endTime":1498.333,"body":"I'm helping to work on called the,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1494.173,"endTime":1498.333,"body":"uh, a Data Bill of Materials or, or"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1498.353,"endTime":1500.843,"body":"other mechanism for doing data lineage."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1501.013,"endTime":1505.703,"body":"Like, how do you not just detail this"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1501.013,"endTime":1505.703,"body":"stack of the stuff you're running"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1505.703,"endTime":1511.703,"body":"on, but detail all the input steps"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1505.703,"endTime":1511.703,"body":"of the data that came in, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1511.823,"endTime":1513.493,"body":"How do you know what was"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1511.823,"endTime":1513.493,"body":"in your training data?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1513.633,"endTime":1516.313,"body":"How do you know what was"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1513.633,"endTime":1516.313,"body":"in your, uh, holdback data?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1516.323,"endTime":1520.513,"body":"How do you know, \"Oh, hey everyone,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1516.323,"endTime":1520.513,"body":"we're gonna convert this from,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1520.573,"endTime":1524.603,"body":"I don't know dollars to euros"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1520.573,"endTime":1524.603,"body":"at this stage, on this date.\""},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1524.993,"endTime":1526.893,"body":"We're gonna re- record that somewhere."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1527.203,"endTime":1530.513,"body":"Those are all inputs that happen"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1527.203,"endTime":1530.513,"body":"all, even before you get your"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1530.513,"endTime":1532.053,"body":"infrastructure stack lined up."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1532.473,"endTime":1534.653,"body":"That's also part of the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1532.473,"endTime":1534.653,"body":"determinism that we need to do."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1534.673,"endTime":1537.363,"body":"So it really is like all of the above."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1537.373,"endTime":1542.123,"body":"You need to think about holistically,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1537.373,"endTime":1542.123,"body":"how did I create this artifact at the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1542.123,"endTime":1546.983,"body":"end that allows me to do my job, and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1542.123,"endTime":1546.983,"body":"what were all the things that came in?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1547.433,"endTime":1552.023,"body":"And some of them will be reproducible"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1547.433,"endTime":1552.023,"body":"and detailable, and some of"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1552.023,"endTime":1553.803,"body":"them won't, and that's okay."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1553.943,"endTime":1555.833,"body":"We just need to accept"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1553.943,"endTime":1555.833,"body":"that some of them were not."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1555.833,"endTime":1558.113,"body":"Do not try and get to 100%, you will fail."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1558.313,"endTime":1561.413,"body":"If we got to 50%, I'd be ecstatic."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1561.613,"endTime":1562.853,"body":"Right now we're at, like, 2%."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1563.463,"endTime":1564.423,"body":"So there you go."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1564.443,"endTime":1565.393,"body":"I, uh, I hope that answered- Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1565.393,"endTime":1569.043,"body":"no, it's… Co- completely agree"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1565.393,"endTime":1569.043,"body":"with your assessment and it, it mirrors a"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1569.043,"endTime":1570.403,"body":"lot of the conversations I've been having."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1570.873,"endTime":1574.253,"body":"But, uh, let me kind of move into,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1570.873,"endTime":1574.253,"body":"I'm gonna call this kind of the"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1574.253,"endTime":1575.753,"body":"grab bag section, if you will."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1575.753,"endTime":1577.403,"body":"I'm gonna ask you a bunch"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1575.753,"endTime":1577.403,"body":"of random questions here."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1577.403,"endTime":1577.873,"body":"Go ahead."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1577.873,"endTime":1580.933,"body":"'"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1577.873,"endTime":1580.933,"body":"Aaron: Cause we have a, a somewhat common"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1580.933,"endTime":1584.463,"body":"your thoughts on some of these things"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1580.933,"endTime":1584.463,"body":"that it may not, may not be as related to"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1584.463,"endTime":1588.213,"body":"the Y- AI infrastructure, but it's kind"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1584.463,"endTime":1588.213,"body":"of related to everything we're talking"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1588.213,"endTime":1589.653,"body":"about and doing in our day to days."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1590.013,"endTime":1594.543,"body":"So first of all, what's your"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1590.013,"endTime":1594.543,"body":"thoughts on, like, OSS models?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1594.543,"endTime":1597.193,"body":"And what I mean by that is"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1594.543,"endTime":1597.193,"body":"today a lot of us say, \"Oh, this"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1597.193,"endTime":1598.623,"body":"model's OSS,\" but it's really not."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1598.623,"endTime":1599.783,"body":"It's open weights, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1599.783,"endTime":1604.583,"body":"And do you think there will ever"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1599.783,"endTime":1604.583,"body":"be a truly OSS model, like, run"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1604.583,"endTime":1606.983,"body":"by Linux Foundation or CNCF?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1606.993,"endTime":1609.393,"body":"Like, what would it take and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1606.993,"endTime":1609.393,"body":"what is your thoughts on,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1609.393,"endTime":1611.811,"body":"like- Something like that ever"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1611.811,"endTime":1611.941,"body":"happen?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1611.941,"endTime":1614.071,"body":"So that is an excellent,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1611.941,"endTime":1614.071,"body":"excellent question."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1614.471,"endTime":1616.811,"body":"I know I talk long, so just, I don't"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1614.471,"endTime":1616.811,"body":"know, scratch your nose or something-"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1616.811,"endTime":1619.521,"body":"All good … when I, when I go- All"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1616.811,"endTime":1619.521,"body":"good … when I go into a… What I"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1619.561,"endTime":1623.431,"body":"will say is this, you have put your"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1619.561,"endTime":1623.431,"body":"finger on something enormous, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1624.161,"endTime":1626.481,"body":"We have open weights, we have open source."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1626.841,"endTime":1630.141,"body":"I would argue even o-"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1626.841,"endTime":1630.141,"body":"open source is not enough."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1631.011,"endTime":1633.761,"body":"Because think about what"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1631.011,"endTime":1633.761,"body":"you're doing here, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1633.941,"endTime":1637.901,"body":"So open source means I have access"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1633.941,"endTime":1637.901,"body":"to the… go look at Stallman's,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1637.911,"endTime":1638.881,"body":"like, original thing, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1638.881,"endTime":1641.391,"body":"I have access to the code, I can"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1638.881,"endTime":1641.391,"body":"use it according to this license,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1641.391,"endTime":1642.341,"body":"so on and so forth, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1642.371,"endTime":1643.451,"body":"There's a bunch of things involved there."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1644.081,"endTime":1649.931,"body":"But even if I have every line"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1644.081,"endTime":1649.931,"body":"that, uh, Mistral or OpenAI or"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1650.011,"endTime":1654.621,"body":"Anthropic used to train a model,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1650.011,"endTime":1654.621,"body":"every code, every hyperparameter,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1654.621,"endTime":1656.881,"body":"every everything, that's not enough."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1657.111,"endTime":1658.881,"body":"That's not the model, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1658.961,"endTime":1664.881,"body":"The model is that I ran it, and I"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1658.961,"endTime":1664.881,"body":"ran it against this training data."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1665.381,"endTime":1670.911,"body":"So you could have an open source model"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1665.381,"endTime":1670.911,"body":"that is totally useless because you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1670.911,"endTime":1673.891,"body":"don't have one byte of data, or maybe you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1670.911,"endTime":1673.891,"body":"only have sample data or something like"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1673.901,"endTime":1675.591,"body":"that, so I'm not even able to create it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1676.001,"endTime":1679.391,"body":"I think a true open source model, and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1676.001,"endTime":1679.391,"body":"I think this is something we need to"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1679.391,"endTime":1687.381,"body":"define, but, like, this is true, would"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1679.391,"endTime":1687.381,"body":"have the data and the full stack of"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1687.451,"endTime":1693.971,"body":"infrastructure and the compute or the,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1687.451,"endTime":1693.971,"body":"the code necessary to do that, that allows"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1693.981,"endTime":1698.281,"body":"someone to reproduce the open weights"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1693.981,"endTime":1698.281,"body":"that were released as part of the model."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1698.451,"endTime":1700.701,"body":"That's what open source"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1698.451,"endTime":1700.701,"body":"modeling would look like."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1701.211,"endTime":1704.191,"body":"I think that will be very,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1701.211,"endTime":1704.191,"body":"very, very challenging for"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1704.371,"endTime":1705.551,"body":"people to actually do, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1705.721,"endTime":1710.251,"body":"Because ultimately you are talking"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1705.721,"endTime":1710.251,"body":"about petabytes of data that,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1710.271,"endTime":1711.901,"body":"that, that went into training."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1712.401,"endTime":1715.741,"body":"Now again, it may be not na- not"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1712.401,"endTime":1715.741,"body":"directly, maybe it was a subset"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1715.741,"endTime":1717.131,"body":"or sampling, things like that."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1717.191,"endTime":1721.551,"body":"But somehow petabytes of data produced"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1717.191,"endTime":1721.551,"body":"that, those weights at the end."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1722.131,"endTime":1728.741,"body":"I think the best that we could get to"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1722.131,"endTime":1728.741,"body":"reasonably would be maybe hosting some"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1728.741,"endTime":1733.421,"body":"of that petabytes of data, uh, that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1728.741,"endTime":1733.421,"body":"allowed a third party to audit it, and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1733.741,"endTime":1739.271,"body":"allowed someone to hash, create a hash"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1733.741,"endTime":1739.271,"body":"of some other artifact from that data"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1739.281,"endTime":1743.411,"body":"to say, \"Hey, in this model, this is"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1739.281,"endTime":1743.411,"body":"the hash of the data that went in.\""},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1744.407,"endTime":1746.497,"body":"It's still not gonna allow you to"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1744.407,"endTime":1746.497,"body":"produce the open weights, but at least"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1746.497,"endTime":1750.947,"body":"you have transparency into what, that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1746.497,"endTime":1750.947,"body":"the, the hashes that went in produced"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1750.947,"endTime":1752.397,"body":"something on the oth- on the other side."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1752.707,"endTime":1753.307,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1753.637,"endTime":1758.217,"body":"But the, in the spirit of open source,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1753.637,"endTime":1758.217,"body":"I think we will have, you know, in"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1758.217,"endTime":1761.537,"body":"the name, in the letter of the law,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1758.217,"endTime":1761.537,"body":"I think we will have open source,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1761.537,"endTime":1765.157,"body":"but I don't think that will be what"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1761.537,"endTime":1765.157,"body":"we need if we really wanna have the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1765.197,"endTime":1767.277,"body":"spirit of open source be realized."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1767.887,"endTime":1768.207,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1768.327,"endTime":1768.787,"body":"Agreed."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1768.967,"endTime":1769.427,"body":"Agreed."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1769.597,"endTime":1773.727,"body":"'Cause I had a conversation with somebody,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1769.597,"endTime":1773.727,"body":"actually, you and I were, uh, at an event,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1773.747,"endTime":1775.257,"body":"that's where we got to know each other."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1775.637,"endTime":1778.497,"body":"A- and at that event, actually, it"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1775.637,"endTime":1778.497,"body":"was a side conversation, and it was"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1778.497,"endTime":1781.267,"body":"interesting of like, \"Hey, what would"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1778.497,"endTime":1781.267,"body":"it take to do something like this?\" And"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1781.267,"endTime":1783.977,"body":"it was like- Yeah … it would, it would"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1781.267,"endTime":1783.977,"body":"almost be like the Kubernetes moment"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1783.977,"endTime":1788.147,"body":"all over again, of like, somebody would"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1783.977,"endTime":1788.147,"body":"have to dump a whole bunch of stuff, in."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1788.577,"endTime":1791.637,"body":"Uh, but to your point, even then,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1788.577,"endTime":1791.637,"body":"I don't think that's enough, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1791.677,"endTime":1792.397,"body":"No, totally"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1792.397,"endTime":1792.687,"body":"agree."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1792.697,"endTime":1792.777,"body":"Um-"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1792.977,"endTime":1794.287,"body":"I mean, to- So,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1792.977,"endTime":1794.287,"body":"okay … to your point, Oh, sorry."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1794.287,"endTime":1794.437,"body":"Go ahead."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1794.437,"endTime":1794.627,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1794.627,"endTime":1795.137,"body":"No, go ahead."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1795.217,"endTime":1795.417,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1795.417,"endTime":1795.877,"body":"No, no."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1795.877,"endTime":1798.237,"body":"I'm just gonna say, when you, when"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1795.877,"endTime":1798.237,"body":"you think about the values of open"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1798.237,"endTime":1801.097,"body":"source, when you think about, like,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1798.237,"endTime":1801.097,"body":"what revolutionized, what that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1801.097,"endTime":1803.377,"body":"unlocked, it was the idea, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1803.407,"endTime":1806.957,"body":"Like, um, you know, uh, Linus comes out"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1803.407,"endTime":1806.957,"body":"and he releases the kernel, and then there"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1806.957,"endTime":1810.817,"body":"are, whatever, 14 different distributions,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1806.957,"endTime":1810.817,"body":"and each one of those distributions"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1810.817,"endTime":1814.827,"body":"was somebody sitting around in their"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1810.817,"endTime":1814.827,"body":"basement or their whatever office and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1814.837,"endTime":1816.237,"body":"being like, \"Oh, I think we could do this."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1816.567,"endTime":1818.117,"body":"So I'm gonna, like, take this."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1818.117,"endTime":1818.937,"body":"I'm gonna fork it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1818.937,"endTime":1821.347,"body":"I'm gonna do something else with"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1818.937,"endTime":1821.347,"body":"it.\" And again, that's the spirit"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1821.347,"endTime":1825.327,"body":"of open source, right? If we were"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1821.347,"endTime":1825.327,"body":"gonna get there with models, that's"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1825.327,"endTime":1827.997,"body":"what it would look like. It would be"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1825.327,"endTime":1827.997,"body":"like, \"Oh, here's all this raw data."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1828.147,"endTime":1829.247,"body":"Here's this code."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1829.667,"endTime":1830.537,"body":"Here's the infrastructure."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1831.257,"endTime":1831.957,"body":"I'm gonna take that."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1831.957,"endTime":1832.997,"body":"I'm gonna fork it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1833.517,"endTime":1838.877,"body":"I'm gonna make some tweaks in one or"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1833.517,"endTime":1838.877,"body":"maybe all three of those things, and then"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1838.877,"endTime":1842.397,"body":"I'm gonna do this other thing with it.\""},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1838.877,"endTime":1842.397,"body":"That's what open source would look like."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1842.677,"endTime":1847.437,"body":"That's where I think things get really,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1842.677,"endTime":1847.437,"body":"really, really hard because one or more"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1847.437,"endTime":1848.557,"body":"of those things may not be available."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1848.567,"endTime":1852.227,"body":"Like, uh, you could say, like, \"Hey,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1848.567,"endTime":1852.227,"body":"here's all the code for this model,\""},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1852.367,"endTime":1857.277,"body":"but you need an NV-whatever 72, running"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1852.367,"endTime":1857.277,"body":"for three weeks in order to get it done."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1857.447,"endTime":1859.427,"body":"Well, it's effectively"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1857.447,"endTime":1859.427,"body":"not open source, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1859.457,"endTime":1860.037,"body":"It is."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1860.067,"endTime":1862.667,"body":"I can go look at it, but I can't"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1860.067,"endTime":1862.667,"body":"reproduce it, I can't compile"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1862.667,"endTime":1863.977,"body":"it, I can't, you know, whatever."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1864.537,"endTime":1867.077,"body":"It's challenging and, and I just"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1864.537,"endTime":1867.077,"body":"don't know that we're there."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1867.737,"endTime":1867.997,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1868.087,"endTime":1868.537,"body":"Agreed."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1868.707,"endTime":1869.107,"body":"Agreed."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1869.557,"endTime":1871.787,"body":"So let me, uh, I'm gonna"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1869.557,"endTime":1871.787,"body":"jump onto the next one here."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1872.037,"endTime":1874.827,"body":"AI native, and I'm using"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1872.037,"endTime":1874.827,"body":"air quotes around it."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1874.847,"endTime":1878.827,"body":"You just, uh, you can't really, you know,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1874.847,"endTime":1878.827,"body":"get that as much on the, the au- at least"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1878.827,"endTime":1880.237,"body":"the audio version of all of this, right?"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1880.247,"endTime":1883.667,"body":"Like, AI na- native, like, it gets,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1880.247,"endTime":1883.667,"body":"it gets tossed around more and more,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1883.667,"endTime":1890.329,"body":"but, like- For an enterprise, what"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1883.667,"endTime":1890.329,"body":"does AI native actually mean from"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1890.339,"endTime":1892.109,"body":"like the architecture point of view?"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1892.109,"endTime":1898.289,"body":"And like, how is it different than just"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1892.109,"endTime":1898.289,"body":"bolting AI onto the existing Kubernetes"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1898.329,"endTime":1900.029,"body":"cluster or, you know, whatever else- Yeah"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1900.409,"endTime":1902.889,"body":"we've got going o- inside"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1900.409,"endTime":1902.889,"body":"the enterprise today?"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":1902.889,"endTime":1904.289,"body":"Like, what's your thoughts on AI native?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1904.709,"endTime":1905.419,"body":"Oh, gosh."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1905.419,"endTime":1906.839,"body":"I, there, there's another long one."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1906.859,"endTime":1910.909,"body":"I mean, you know, at the end of the day,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1906.859,"endTime":1910.909,"body":"the, to be AI native, I mean, it was like"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1910.909,"endTime":1912.309,"body":"being cloud native, it was being whatever."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1912.539,"endTime":1918.729,"body":"It means that the majority, if not"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1912.539,"endTime":1918.729,"body":"all of your workloads, your jobs,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1918.729,"endTime":1923.019,"body":"your everything that you do every"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1918.729,"endTime":1923.019,"body":"day has the ability to use AI, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1923.019,"endTime":1924.929,"body":"Without having to re-architect everything."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1925.169,"endTime":1928.859,"body":"And in that you say, \"Okay, well, what"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1925.169,"endTime":1928.859,"body":"does AI do?\" Like truly, what does it do?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1928.869,"endTime":1929.489,"body":"What's the magic?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1929.919,"endTime":1936.789,"body":"The magic is it takes poor or"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1929.919,"endTime":1936.789,"body":"unstructured input and it produces"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1936.819,"endTime":1938.629,"body":"a meaningful output, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1938.789,"endTime":1941.929,"body":"And for ChatGPT, this was like"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1938.789,"endTime":1941.929,"body":"taking my text and saying like,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1941.929,"endTime":1945.199,"body":"\"I wanna go, you know, make my,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1941.929,"endTime":1945.199,"body":"email sound like Freddie Mercury,\""},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1945.679,"endTime":1947.399,"body":"and then it could do that, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1947.429,"endTime":1950.949,"body":"So that's poor unstructured produces"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1947.429,"endTime":1950.949,"body":"something that is like reasonably"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1950.949,"endTime":1951.809,"body":"structured at the other end."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1951.819,"endTime":1954.029,"body":"So that's what AI native is to me."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1954.739,"endTime":1959.819,"body":"Now that said what that means is yes,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1954.739,"endTime":1959.819,"body":"having infrastructure that supports"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1959.819,"endTime":1961.989,"body":"this, having your own training, but"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1959.819,"endTime":1961.989,"body":"even if you didn't do anything like"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1961.989,"endTime":1964.029,"body":"that, it also means two other things."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1964.149,"endTime":1969.409,"body":"One, that the data that you're"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1964.149,"endTime":1969.409,"body":"producing today is ready to"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1969.409,"endTime":1971.719,"body":"be used by AI downstream."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1972.769,"endTime":1978.229,"body":"And that means having native APIs that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1972.769,"endTime":1978.229,"body":"know how to, like, provide limited"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1978.589,"endTime":1981.789,"body":"information, so you're not like, you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1978.589,"endTime":1981.789,"body":"know, revealing everyone's Social"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1981.789,"endTime":1984.949,"body":"Security number when you're just"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1981.789,"endTime":1984.949,"body":"querying, like, what employees are"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1984.949,"endTime":1986.259,"body":"working where, that kind of stuff."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1986.669,"endTime":1993.099,"body":"It means adding provenance,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1986.669,"endTime":1993.099,"body":"lineage of tracking of the data"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1993.369,"endTime":1994.919,"body":"as it moves through your system."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1994.919,"endTime":1999.829,"body":"So if I have 400 wind turbines in"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1994.919,"endTime":1999.829,"body":"Iowa every one of them, when they"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1999.829,"endTime":2003.409,"body":"leave, you know, it's not just a"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":1999.829,"endTime":2003.409,"body":"bunch of comma-separated values."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2003.409,"endTime":2006.799,"body":"It actually has all the information"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2003.409,"endTime":2006.799,"body":"associated with each piece of"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2007.249,"endTime":2010.649,"body":"metadata so that downstream AI can"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2007.249,"endTime":2010.649,"body":"make better decisions, 'cause it's"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2010.649,"endTime":2011.989,"body":"now got all that data painted."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2012.469,"endTime":2017.929,"body":"And it means, as you pass it through the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2012.469,"endTime":2017.929,"body":"system, it's all recorded so that in six"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2017.929,"endTime":2022.599,"body":"months' time when you realize you need"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2017.929,"endTime":2022.599,"body":"this, it's there and available for you."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2023.029,"endTime":2024.509,"body":"Not storing everything."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2024.579,"endTime":2028.079,"body":"Storing everything pr- Or storing the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2024.579,"endTime":2028.079,"body":"stuff properly, so if you wanna go"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2028.079,"endTime":2029.309,"body":"back and recreate it, that's kind of…"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2029.659,"endTime":2030.739,"body":"So that's a big thing, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2030.909,"endTime":2034.029,"body":"Really working on your data"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2030.909,"endTime":2034.029,"body":"story even before you get to AI,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2034.029,"endTime":2035.359,"body":"that's part of being AI native."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2035.779,"endTime":2042.179,"body":"The other side of it is how do you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2035.779,"endTime":2042.179,"body":"build the systems to watch these"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2042.459,"endTime":2047.939,"body":"non-deterministic systems a, you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2042.459,"endTime":2047.939,"body":"know, results, AI produce stuff."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2048.229,"endTime":2053.429,"body":"You know, if I go and, uh, query"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2048.229,"endTime":2053.429,"body":"a web server six million times,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2053.749,"endTime":2057.179,"body":"I'm probably gonna get the same"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2053.749,"endTime":2057.179,"body":"result six million times, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2057.569,"endTime":2060.549,"body":"Every so often, maybe it got a"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2057.569,"endTime":2060.549,"body":"half a question or whatever and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2060.549,"endTime":2061.479,"body":"it's gonna get something wrong."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2061.649,"endTime":2063.059,"body":"Fine, that happens."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2063.609,"endTime":2066.709,"body":"But my s- it's not gonna generally,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2063.609,"endTime":2066.709,"body":"like, come back with, you know,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2066.709,"endTime":2067.959,"body":"the, the text of the Iliad."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2068.609,"endTime":2073.729,"body":"AI has the opportunity to do that, and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2068.609,"endTime":2073.729,"body":"what that means is that what we need"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2073.729,"endTime":2077.179,"body":"to do, what you need to do to be AI"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2073.729,"endTime":2077.179,"body":"native is say, \"Hey, you know what?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2077.509,"endTime":2081.739,"body":"We're gonna build in the reliability"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2077.509,"endTime":2081.739,"body":"to our system to say, 'If you don't-"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2082.491,"endTime":2086.731,"body":"match the output we expect, we're"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2082.491,"endTime":2086.731,"body":"gonna have a way to fail elegantly."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2087.241,"endTime":2089.631,"body":"Or, and, or, you know, just"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2087.241,"endTime":2089.631,"body":"say, \"All right, ignore."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2089.891,"endTime":2091.651,"body":"Moving on,\" or re- re-request."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2092.071,"endTime":2094.461,"body":"It, just that is also"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2092.071,"endTime":2094.461,"body":"incredibly important as well."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2094.851,"endTime":2098.391,"body":"That's very different than the systems"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2094.851,"endTime":2098.391,"body":"we built for many, many, many years."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2098.711,"endTime":2103.801,"body":"Uh, where, y- sure, if my, if"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2098.711,"endTime":2103.801,"body":"the brakes on my car failed it"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2103.801,"endTime":2106.971,"body":"would know how to, fail that."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2107.411,"endTime":2110.891,"body":"But like I said, if it, if it, uh,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2107.411,"endTime":2110.891,"body":"you know, produced a picture of,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2110.911,"endTime":2114.181,"body":"I have no idea, Tom Brady it would"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2110.911,"endTime":2114.181,"body":"not know how to respond to that,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2114.181,"endTime":2115.301,"body":"and maybe it would crash the system."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2115.751,"endTime":2121.451,"body":"Being AI native means having a way to fall"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2115.751,"endTime":2121.451,"body":"back elegantly when stuff goes sideways."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2121.541,"endTime":2126.571,"body":"So it really is, it's about where you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2121.541,"endTime":2126.571,"body":"can build these stacks, how you use them"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2126.571,"endTime":2132.021,"body":"intelligently, but also what are the,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2126.571,"endTime":2132.021,"body":"the, the dependencies, either before"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2132.021,"endTime":2137.511,"body":"it lands on AI and after it, it lands"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2132.021,"endTime":2137.511,"body":"on AI, in order to handle this new and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2137.511,"endTime":2138.811,"body":"interesting system that we've built."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2139.131,"endTime":2140.661,"body":"That's what AI data means to me."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2141.211,"endTime":2142.871,"body":"Now, okay, a follow-up."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2142.871,"endTime":2146.071,"body":"I, I do, I wanna close this out on a,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2142.871,"endTime":2146.071,"body":"on an edge question, but a follow-up"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2146.071,"endTime":2147.391,"body":"on that before we get to that."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2148.371,"endTime":2153.381,"body":"Based off of what you just said, and"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2148.371,"endTime":2153.381,"body":"kind of putting a whole bunch of threads"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2153.381,"endTime":2159.311,"body":"together here, if we wanted, uh, obviously"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2153.381,"endTime":2159.311,"body":"something that's, you know, LLM-based,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2159.321,"endTime":2163.461,"body":"but LLMs are non-deterministic, so we"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2159.321,"endTime":2163.461,"body":"want something that is more deterministic,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2164.021,"endTime":2168.026,"body":"and we want something we have better"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2164.021,"endTime":2168.026,"body":"visibility and control over and is m-"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2168.026,"endTime":2170.991,"body":"like, you know, I'm gonna say is, is"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2168.026,"endTime":2170.991,"body":"open source, you know, in all of this-"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2172.089,"endTime":2179.389,"body":"Is there potentially a future in open"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2172.089,"endTime":2179.389,"body":"source harnesses that then wrap around"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2179.399,"endTime":2181.659,"body":"the model and help control the model?"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2181.659,"endTime":2184.539,"body":"Like I go, for instance, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2181.659,"endTime":2184.539,"body":"you, you look at all the different"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2184.549,"endTime":2187.339,"body":"models that are make- or excuse me,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2184.549,"endTime":2187.339,"body":"all the different harnesses that are"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2187.339,"endTime":2188.579,"body":"making a lot of the models better."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2188.579,"endTime":2191.379,"body":"You look at Claude Code and,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2188.579,"endTime":2191.379,"body":"you know, that notoriously, I"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2191.379,"endTime":2192.409,"body":"think, kicked everything off."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2192.409,"endTime":2194.489,"body":"But like, I wanna say it was Qwen."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2194.769,"endTime":2199.269,"body":"Qwen has a pretty interesting harness"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2194.769,"endTime":2199.269,"body":"that they open sourced recently."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2199.319,"endTime":2199.639,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2200.019,"endTime":2202.429,"body":"And there's, you know,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2200.019,"endTime":2202.429,"body":"we're starting to see more"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2202.429,"endTime":2204.219,"body":"and more of that going on."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2204.219,"endTime":2207.689,"body":"Like, what is your thoughts on how to"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2204.219,"endTime":2207.689,"body":"solve the problem with open source?"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2207.729,"endTime":2210.529,"body":"Is it a, an, a harness"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2207.729,"endTime":2210.529,"body":"open source wrapper?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2211.339,"endTime":2212.019,"body":"Oh, absolutely."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2212.279,"endTime":2212.749,"body":"No, no."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2213.029,"endTime":2217.599,"body":"So these tools are you know,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2213.029,"endTime":2217.599,"body":"th- they're, they're all these"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2217.599,"endTime":2222.639,"body":"models are just the start of what"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2217.599,"endTime":2222.639,"body":"we're needing to do here, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2222.939,"endTime":2228.799,"body":"The wrappers of them, the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2222.939,"endTime":2228.799,"body":"harnesses, are what begin to form"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2228.799,"endTime":2232.349,"body":"the criteria, the deterministic"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2228.799,"endTime":2232.349,"body":"criteria of inputs and outputs."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2232.589,"endTime":2238.829,"body":"And so for sure, no matter how good your"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2232.589,"endTime":2238.829,"body":"model is, it will never be anything more"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2239.059,"endTime":2240.999,"body":"than an endpoint for input and output."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2241.509,"endTime":2246.679,"body":"And um, arguably the majority of the work"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2241.509,"endTime":2246.679,"body":"today and this is pretty arguable, so"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2246.679,"endTime":2248.619,"body":"I'm not gonna take too spicy a take here."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2248.919,"endTime":2253.389,"body":"But I would argue that any model"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2248.919,"endTime":2253.389,"body":"that we have today could be used"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2253.569,"endTime":2259.141,"body":"to create 95 % of the value for"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2253.569,"endTime":2259.141,"body":"the next five years, like really."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2259.461,"endTime":2263.231,"body":"It's about how you structure it, how"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2259.461,"endTime":2263.231,"body":"you structure input, how you structure"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2263.231,"endTime":2266.741,"body":"the output, how do you iterate on"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2263.231,"endTime":2266.741,"body":"it, how do you update it, how do you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2266.771,"endTime":2268.471,"body":"cache it, all those kind of things."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2268.471,"endTime":2272.721,"body":"And all that stuff is pure"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2268.471,"endTime":2272.721,"body":"distributed systems, deterministic,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2272.751,"endTime":2275.011,"body":"um, you know, ar- around the edges."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2275.461,"endTime":2275.721,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2275.801,"endTime":2276.321,"body":"Makes sense."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2276.421,"endTime":2276.911,"body":"Makes sense."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2276.991,"endTime":2281.031,"body":"All right, so I wanna close this out on"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2276.991,"endTime":2281.031,"body":"a final topic and this also kinda goes"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2281.031,"endTime":2284.541,"body":"to a little bit more to your day job"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2281.031,"endTime":2284.541,"body":"kind of thing here with, uh, Expanso."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2285.031,"endTime":2291.171,"body":"So I'm seeing a lot more both regulatory"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2285.031,"endTime":2291.171,"body":"concerns, data residency concerns,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2291.731,"endTime":2295.341,"body":"really across a lot of industries, but"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2291.731,"endTime":2295.341,"body":"certainly the highly regulated indus-"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2295.371,"endTime":2298.231,"body":"industries, healthcare, financial"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2295.371,"endTime":2298.231,"body":"services, you know, things like that."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2298.581,"endTime":2298.601,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2298.841,"endTime":2306.651,"body":"How much of, like, edge and"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2298.841,"endTime":2306.651,"body":"distributed compute is being driven"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2306.651,"endTime":2311.131,"body":"by whether they're AI performance"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2306.651,"endTime":2311.131,"body":"needs, governance, compliance?"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2311.151,"endTime":2316.401,"body":"Like, tell me a little bit"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2311.151,"endTime":2316.401,"body":"about that space right now and"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2316.401,"endTime":2319.331,"body":"specifically the drivers behind them."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2320.281,"endTime":2323.061,"body":"Yeah, I think it's a really"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2320.281,"endTime":2323.061,"body":"interesting thing and you hear"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2323.061,"endTime":2326.961,"body":"so much about this with sovereign"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2323.061,"endTime":2326.961,"body":"AI and, and, um, sometimes you're"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2326.961,"endTime":2329.221,"body":"getting government regulations doing"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2326.961,"endTime":2329.221,"body":"it, sometimes you're just getting"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2329.221,"endTime":2330.821,"body":"individuals caring about this."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2331.221,"endTime":2332.491,"body":"It really spans the map."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2332.811,"endTime":2336.431,"body":"Again it generally is gonna come back"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2332.811,"endTime":2336.431,"body":"to who thinks they're gonna get fired or"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2336.661,"endTime":2340.351,"body":"sued or, um, fail in some, like, bad way."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2340.671,"endTime":2345.691,"body":"And edge is a component of a"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2340.671,"endTime":2345.691,"body":"solution for any of those, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2345.941,"endTime":2351.161,"body":"And the component of the solution is"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2345.941,"endTime":2351.161,"body":"it allows you to execute portions of"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2351.161,"endTime":2356.051,"body":"your job in, in a more specific way."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2356.381,"endTime":2358.761,"body":"Um, and again, this is our day job."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2358.761,"endTime":2362.251,"body":"This is what we do with Expanso, uh,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2358.761,"endTime":2362.251,"body":"distributed compute and distributed"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2362.271,"endTime":2365.821,"body":"data pipelines and things like that,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2362.271,"endTime":2365.821,"body":"allowing you to run A- AI at the edge."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2365.941,"endTime":2367.471,"body":"We don't build any models."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2367.481,"endTime":2370.991,"body":"In fact, we have, uh, Mistral, we"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2367.481,"endTime":2370.991,"body":"have Quinn, we have all these kind of"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2370.991,"endTime":2374.431,"body":"examples of running on-prem 'cause all"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2370.991,"endTime":2374.431,"body":"we wanna do is help you run what you"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2374.431,"endTime":2376.971,"body":"already know and love in those locations."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2377.251,"endTime":2383.297,"body":"But- What it enables is those people"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2377.251,"endTime":2383.297,"body":"who have these problems to say,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2383.317,"endTime":2387.257,"body":"\"Oh, there is a solution here.\" It"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2383.317,"endTime":2387.257,"body":"doesn't just mean handing all my data,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2387.457,"endTime":2390.317,"body":"handing all this, like, proprietary"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2387.457,"endTime":2390.317,"body":"stuff to an endpoint in the cloud and"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2390.357,"endTime":2394.287,"body":"trusting that they have a ZD- a zero"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2390.357,"endTime":2394.287,"body":"deten- uh, data retention policy."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2394.537,"endTime":2397.287,"body":"I gotta get out of the acronym, uh, world."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2397.557,"endTime":2400.757,"body":"Uh, or they trust that they're"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2397.557,"endTime":2400.757,"body":"not using my models to train,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2401.037,"endTime":2402.117,"body":"uh, their own stuff on it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2402.557,"endTime":2404.867,"body":"The fact that I can now get"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2402.557,"endTime":2404.867,"body":"control of this is great."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2404.897,"endTime":2406.457,"body":"Now, I wanna be really clear."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2406.657,"endTime":2409.517,"body":"I don't think that means"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2406.657,"endTime":2409.517,"body":"stopping it, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2409.517,"endTime":2411.397,"body":"I don't think that means"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2409.517,"endTime":2411.397,"body":"not using a hosted endpoint."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2411.857,"endTime":2412.227,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2412.527,"endTime":2417.567,"body":"What I think it means is being thoughtful"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2412.527,"endTime":2417.567,"body":"about what occurs in each of the steps."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2417.707,"endTime":2421.357,"body":"What do I need to do on-prem to"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2417.707,"endTime":2421.357,"body":"obfuscate, to clean, to whatever?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2421.567,"endTime":2425.517,"body":"What do I need to execute over AI"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2421.567,"endTime":2425.517,"body":"locally because of bandwidth or"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2425.517,"endTime":2426.887,"body":"regulatory concerns or whatever?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2427.127,"endTime":2430.367,"body":"And then what makes most sense"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2427.127,"endTime":2430.367,"body":"for me to execute against"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2430.367,"endTime":2432.527,"body":"that B300 in the cloud, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2432.787,"endTime":2434.967,"body":"Those things span the spectrum."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2435.247,"endTime":2438.347,"body":"Right now, there's only the one, right?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2438.367,"endTime":2441.627,"body":"There's only the, \"Well, geez, I guess I"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2438.367,"endTime":2441.627,"body":"gotta use this thing in the cloud 'cause"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2441.627,"endTime":2445.547,"body":"that's the only one that's any good.\""},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2441.627,"endTime":2445.547,"body":"Recently, arguably, you know, in the past"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2445.547,"endTime":2452.917,"body":"six months, you've seen phenomenal results"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2445.547,"endTime":2452.917,"body":"by folks with on-prem or other solutions,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2453.297,"endTime":2456.897,"body":"uh, excuse me, um, uh, self-hosted,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2453.297,"endTime":2456.897,"body":"uh, models, maybe not open source, I'm,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2456.907,"endTime":2460.327,"body":"I'm not gonna, like, fall into that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2456.907,"endTime":2460.327,"body":"tar pit, but certainly self-hostable"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2460.557,"endTime":2462.807,"body":"models that have started to change that."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2462.867,"endTime":2466.657,"body":"Again, it's not a question of"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2462.867,"endTime":2466.657,"body":"whether or not they are better"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2466.657,"endTime":2468.667,"body":"or worse across every benchmark."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2468.997,"endTime":2473.703,"body":"That is not required But if they"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2468.997,"endTime":2473.703,"body":"can do some components of the things"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2473.703,"endTime":2478.893,"body":"you need locally, and maybe entirely"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2473.703,"endTime":2478.893,"body":"for some scenarios, then great."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2479.163,"endTime":2481.023,"body":"And people now have that"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2479.163,"endTime":2481.023,"body":"as part of the option."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2481.203,"endTime":2485.373,"body":"So what I generally hear, you know,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2481.203,"endTime":2485.373,"body":"the answer to your question is, I hear"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2486.103,"endTime":2490.443,"body":"people being excited about this, adding"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2486.103,"endTime":2490.443,"body":"it to their portfolio of solutions,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2490.673,"endTime":2493.823,"body":"but still in the same way they're not"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2490.673,"endTime":2493.823,"body":"want- excited about being all in on"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2493.823,"endTime":2497.093,"body":"the cloud, they're also not excited"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2493.823,"endTime":2497.093,"body":"about being all in on, on-prem."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2497.193,"endTime":2500.093,"body":"They're happy to figure out the"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2497.193,"endTime":2500.093,"body":"hybrid that, that fits best."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2500.713,"endTime":2501.333,"body":"That makes sense."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2501.373,"endTime":2501.793,"body":"That makes sense."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2501.793,"endTime":2504.943,"body":"I think that's a great place"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2501.793,"endTime":2504.943,"body":"to close us out as well."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2504.963,"endTime":2507.833,"body":"So, so David, if there's anyone"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2504.963,"endTime":2507.833,"body":"out there that's kinda interested"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2507.843,"endTime":2511.093,"body":"in that topic specifically, what's"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2507.843,"endTime":2511.093,"body":"the best way they can get started?"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2511.793,"endTime":2515.113,"body":"Uh, I, uh, I'm infinitely"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2511.793,"endTime":2515.113,"body":"online, unfortunately."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2515.113,"endTime":2516.323,"body":"Uh, I don't know how to break it."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2516.363,"endTime":2519.123,"body":"Uh, you can reach me on,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2516.363,"endTime":2519.123,"body":"uh, Blue Sky, Twitter."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2519.393,"endTime":2522.353,"body":"Uh, you can reach me on,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2519.393,"endTime":2522.353,"body":"uh, LinkedIn, uh, or so on."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2522.353,"endTime":2524.823,"body":"It's always uh, just about every"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2522.353,"endTime":2524.823,"body":"place, it's just my last name"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2525.083,"endTime":2526.443,"body":"is the easiest way to find me."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2526.693,"endTime":2528.043,"body":"Uh, there aren't a lot of us out there."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2528.223,"endTime":2530.513,"body":"Uh, Aronchick at, uh, all these places."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2530.763,"endTime":2532.433,"body":"Although on Blue Sky, I'm Iron Yuppie."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2532.753,"endTime":2535.123,"body":"Outside of that I mean,"},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2532.753,"endTime":2535.123,"body":"take it-- You can email me."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2535.173,"endTime":2536.553,"body":"Uh, again, it's just my last name."},{"speaker":"David","startTime":2536.553,"endTime":2538.153,"body":"It's uh, same, same everywhere."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2538.763,"endTime":2539.213,"body":"Love it."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2539.233,"endTime":2540.923,"body":"Thank you so much for"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2539.233,"endTime":2540.923,"body":"your time today, David."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2541.143,"endTime":2543.303,"body":"And everyone out there- Thank you so much"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2541.143,"endTime":2543.303,"body":"… thank you very much for listening."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2543.423,"endTime":2546.053,"body":"We certainly appreciate"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2543.423,"endTime":2546.053,"body":"your time this week as well."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2546.063,"endTime":2549.103,"body":"So if you could please, wherever"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2546.063,"endTime":2549.103,"body":"you get your podcasts, if you"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2549.103,"endTime":2552.713,"body":"enjoy the show, uh, please leave"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2549.103,"endTime":2552.713,"body":"us a rating and a review as well."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2552.713,"endTime":2556.003,"body":"And we're always open to feedback"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2552.713,"endTime":2556.003,"body":"through all of our socials as well."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2556.003,"endTime":2560.483,"body":"L- Both feedback on our episodes as"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2556.003,"endTime":2560.483,"body":"well as ideas for guests as well."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2560.483,"endTime":2564.373,"body":"And so for Brian, who wasn't able to"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2560.483,"endTime":2564.373,"body":"make it, uh, this week, and myself, thank"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2564.373,"endTime":2567.393,"body":"you everyone out there for listening,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2564.373,"endTime":2567.393,"body":"and we will talk to everyone next week."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2568.511,"endTime":2569.441,"body":"Thanks for listening."},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2569.571,"endTime":2573.551,"body":"Check us out at theenterpriseaishow.com"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2569.571,"endTime":2573.551,"body":"for past shows, newsletters,"},{"speaker":"Aaron","startTime":2573.551,"endTime":2575.081,"body":"and all things enterprise AI"}]}