The Academy Insider Podcast - Your Guide to The Naval Academy Experience
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families. Through the perspective of a community of former graduates and Naval Academy insiders, this podcast will help you learn about life at the United States Naval Academy in Annapolis. Through our shared experiences, Academy Insider guides families through the anxiety and frustration caused by lack of understanding, misinformation, and confusion. This platform is designed to better relationships between midshipmen and their loved ones. This podcast is not affiliated with the United States Naval Academy, the United States Navy or Department of Defense. The thoughts and opinions are exclusively those of your host and his guests.
The Academy Insider Podcast - Your Guide to The Naval Academy Experience
#039 The Purpose of Plebe Summer at the Naval Academy
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Step inside the rigorous world of Plebe Summer with Commander Mike Murnane as we unravel the threads of leadership and mentorship that define the Naval Academy's transformational journey. This episode is your ticket to understanding the intense preparation and selection of the upperclassmen detailers, who are pivotal in molding incoming plebes into the future leaders of the Navy. The commitment of these detailers, handpicked for their exemplary traits, lays the groundwork for an experience that will challenge and refine every participant.
Venture through poignant stories that capture the essence of the mentor-mentee dynamic, woven into the fabric of military life. Under the guidance of seasoned officers like Commander Murnane, we discuss the intricacies of peer leadership and the criticality of being present both physically and mentally. These narratives are not merely tales from the yard; they're lessons in the art of leadership, time management, and the importance of rest, all crucial for anyone aspiring to thrive in the demanding environment of the Naval Academy.
Finally, for those poised to take the leap into Plebe Summer, we offer a beacon of wisdom and encouragement. As you stand on the cusp of this significant milestone, we share insights that reassure and inspire, grounding you in the knowledge that what lies ahead is a period of profound growth and enduring camaraderie. From the picturesque chestnut tree near the chapel to the challenges that forge the strongest bonds, this is more than a podcast episode—it's an invitation to step into the continuum of naval tradition and excellence.
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The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families.
This podcast is independently produced and reflects the views and opinions of its creators. It is not officially affiliated with, endorsed by, or representative of the United States Naval Academy or its affiliates.
Grant Vermeer your host is the person who started it all. He is the founder of Academy Insider and the host of The Academy Insider podcast. He was a recruited athlete which brought him to Annapolis where he was a four year member of the varsity basketball team. He was a cyber operations major and commissioned into the Cryptologic Warfare Community. He was stationed at Fort Meade and supported the Subsurface Direct Support mission.
He separated from the Navy in 2023 and now owns The Vermeer Group, a residential real estate company that matches service academy families with trusted real estate teams all across the country. Text (650) 282-1964 with any real estate questions.
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Understanding the Purpose of Plebe Summer
Grant VermeerWelcome to Season 2 of the Academy Insider Podcast . Academy Insider is a 501c3 nonprofit organization that serves midshipmen , future midshipmen and their families . At its core , this podcast is designed to bring together a community of Naval Academy graduates and those affiliated with the United States Naval Academy in order to tell stories and provide a little bit of insight into what life at the Naval Academy is really like . I hope you enjoy it . Thank you so much for listening and reach out if you ever have any questions . The Academy Insider Podcast is sponsored by the Vermeer Group , a residential real estate company that serves the United States Naval Academy community and other select clientele in both California and Texas . If I can ever answer a real estate related question for you or connect you with a trusted Academy affiliated agent in the market which you're in , please reach out to me directly at grantatthevermeergroupcom . You can also reach out to me on my LinkedIn page , grant Vermeer , and I'd be happy to respond to you there . Thank you so much , and now let's get back to the episode . Hey , everyone , welcome to the Academy Insider Podcast . Today , I'm actually republishing an episode that I recorded back in 2019 , which is all about the purpose and mission of Plebe Summer , although some details may change about Plebe Summer , for example , like the number of platoons or companies and the amount of companies in the brigade of midshipmen , the overall purpose and mission of Plebe Summer has always remained consistent . So I'm excited to share this episode where I'm joined by Commander Mike Murnane , who is the commissioned officer in charge of the Plebe Summer Evolution while I was serving as the regimental commander , and the reason I wanted to bring him on was to just give a little bit of insight for all the appointees who may be out there , or for all the parents , loved ones , family members who want to learn a little bit about the purpose of Plebe Summer and what you're about to go through . I highly encourage you to check out this episode .
Grant VermeerWe talk about detailer selection and detail training , because you may be surprised , but as much as Plebe Summer is for the Plebes , plebe Summer is also designed as a defining leadership experience for the detailer staff , the midshipmen that are going into their second class and into their first class year at the Naval Academy . We also talk about the Plebe experience . We talk about the Plebe experience . We talk about the goal and mission of the training of Plebe Summer and what we are trying to accomplish by the end of the six weeks of your Plebe Summer experience . If you have any questions about anything that we talked about in this episode , please feel free to shoot me a message or reach out to me . I'd love to get in contact with you and provide you the resources you need to better understand the midshipman experience and really get the most out of the Naval Academy journey . Thank you so much . I hope you enjoy the episode and never hesitate to reach out . All right , hey , sir . Thank you so much for coming on and joining us today on the Academy Insider Podcast .
Mike MurnaneYeah , happy to be here with you , grant , anytime . Happy to sit and chat about our experiences and catch up with you anytime .
Grant VermeerAbsolutely and for all the listeners . I know you already heard the disclaimer , but I do just want to reiterate that everything that me and Commander Rene say on this podcast are thoughts of our own and do not reflect the Naval Academy , united States Navy nor the Department of Defense in any official way . We're just sharing stories and providing our insight from the experiences that we had in the hopes that will provide value to the next generation of Naval Academy midshipmen . But before we get started , sir , if you don't mind , just kind of walking through a little bit about your time at the Academy , basically as an alumni your class year , your company things that you did at the Academy , and then kind of your career path and how you got to where you are today .
Mike MurnaneYeah , sure , no problem . So I'm a 1995 grad . I went there right out of high school in 1991 , did my pleb summer in the summer of 91 . And my four years at the academy were phenomenal and , like a lot of people will tell you , the people that you meet there are your friends for life . You know , one of my good buddies is godparents to my children now , and so it's , you know , just some amazing people that I met there along the way . I played hockey and lacrosse while I was there . I was a recruited athlete for lacrosse , not highly recruited Trust me , I was not a not a top recruit , but I came down and played JV lacrosse my freshman year .
Mike MurnaneThen sophomore year . I tried to play both lacrosse and hockey . I made the varsity lacrosse team but just could not play both sports . It was too much and my true love was hockey . So I played hockey for the last three years . I was there and could not be more happy with that decision . It was really good for me . I studied ocean engineering and , believe it or not , that sophomore year , when I was doing both sports , was when I actually had my best grades . You know , it's that funny little thing . You look back on time management that we learned so well while we're there . I actually had so little time that I had to manage it meticulously and I probably did much better that sophomore year because of all the things going on .
Grant VermeerOh , absolutely .
Mike MurnaneBut yeah . So I graduated in 1995 and I was commissioned as a student naval flight officer , went down to Pensacola , went through the training there , got winged out in San Antonio , texas , when we used to wing guys through the naval flight officer program at Randolph Air Force Base , and then I went into the P-3 community . I did two tours as a P-3 naval flight officer . The P-3s were big sub hunters . They've since been replaced by the P-8 Poseidon but it's still same mission out there that we did . So I did tours in Brunswick , maine , as a naval flight officer up there with VP-26 . Did deployments to three different places as a junior officer up until I was a lieutenant . I went to Sigonella twice Keflavik and Rosie Rhodes on a split-site deployment . Rosie Rhodes down in Puerto Rico and flew on top of Russian submarines , hunted drug hunters , hunted friendly submarines , did surface searches in the Mediterranean all great stuff .
Grant VermeerYeah , way cool .
Mike MurnaneYeah , and then my staff tours included an opportunity to go out to UConn as a staff officer in Germany . So I got Stuttgart Germany . I did a year at the War College and then my command tour was as a Provincial Reconstruction Team Commanding Officer in Kandahar , afghanistan . I did that from 2010 to 2011 . And so then after that I went to the Bureau of Personnel for one more staff tour and then was allowed to come back to the Naval Academy as a battalion officer , and that was pretty special . I still pinch myself thinking at the opportunity that I had there . So I really really enjoyed it .
Grant VermeerAnd how do kind of senior officers get to go back to work at the Naval Academy as staff ? What's the process for that ? Is that simply just a detailing slot , or is there an application process with that ?
Mike MurnaneIt is just a detailing slot , but certainly the senior officer program . The way to get there as a battalion officer is to go through your warfare community in the standard fashion Do your junior officer tour , do your department head tour , screen for a milestone or command billet . So I'm a little bit of an exception to the rule . I commanded a provincial reconstruction team , not a squadron , so my career wasn't exactly standard getting to the Naval Academy . But the standard way of doing it is working through and having the opportunity to command within your warfare , whether you're a submarine officer , a surface warfare officer , aviator . Occasionally we get some spec war guys come back through , but for the most part subsurface and air guys get the opportunity to come back and the men and women I got to serve with as battalion officers are just incredible people and such a great time , absolutely All right ?
Grant VermeerWell , thanks for that , let's jump into here . So again , the first series , really , of the Academy Insider Podcast is about Plebe Summer , and I think a big part of preparing for Plebe Summer is understanding what you're actually going to go through and embracing the why behind everything that's happening . And for everyone who knows me and knows my story , I didn't really know the why behind Plebe Summer and I didn't really know what I was getting myself into and that led to some rough times during Pleap Summer . So again , I just want to talk about the purpose and the why of Pleap Summer and why you're going to experience everything that's going to happen . So we're lucky to have Commander Murnane , because when I was the regimental commander for the class of 2020 Pleap Summer , commander Murnane was the officer in charge of Cleve Semmer
Understanding the Role of the OIC
Grant Vermeer.
Mike MurnaneSo , sir , if you don't mind just explaining a little bit about what the OIC is and kind of the roles and responsibilities you had while you were the officer in charge , yeah , so with everything we do at the Academy there is a lead-follow relationship , there's an officer structure that's there to help guide midshipmen through these leadership experiences , and so really my primary role was to do all of the staff work to get things set up for Plebe Summer and to do all of the administrative things that would be required to get this thing going .
Mike MurnaneBut then once we went , really once Plebe Summer starts , my job is to help you as the regimental commander and make sure that you have the leadership experience that you're supposed to get out of that .
Mike MurnaneAnd I think , by and large , you and I were very successful at doing what we needed to do to get Plebe Summer going and then make it a success as it went .
Mike MurnaneAnd so I really enjoyed the time and I felt , as you know , I was just in that mentor role and I had other officers underneath me that I was mentoring through their roles as well , and so you know there's there's a whole huge staff underneath you , but by and large it's just a mentor role , trying to help the cadre of midshipmen that run Plebe Summer go get that leadership experience , and that's what I think makes Plebe Summer such a valuable part of what we do at the Academy and for the candidates out there that are coming in , that part obviously isn't clear to them and , like you said , the why of what they're about to experience that's not really wrapped up or clear to them in all of the stuff that we do .
Mike MurnaneBut the why for them is that transition from being either a fleet returning sailor or a civilian off the street like I was military customs , courtesies and culture , and you've got to learn what it means to be a midshipman , and so that in August , when we turn those plebs over to the brigade of midshipmen , they're integrated , they're a part of the brigade , and so that's the other why to what we did , I believe , with the class of 2020 , we did it pretty well .
Grant VermeerAbsolutely , and I appreciate you talking about your role as a mentor because , for everyone listening , I learned so much from Commander Rene and the two of us working together was so much fun . There were so many times where and don't get me wrong Plebe Summer is extremely stressful as a detailer , where I would just walk into his office and sit down in his chair and be like Sir , I don't know what's going on and I need some help , I need some advice and just bounce off ideas , and it was just truly phenomenal . And then also , as the Reg Commander , we get to partake in all of the operations briefs that go on at the officer level like the actual Plebe Summer staff . So to get to sit in and watch how Plebe Summer runs from an extremely high level was a really unique and interesting experience . So it led to me and Commander Murnane having a phenomenal relationship , which we then got to continue into the academic year as well , which was also a ton of fun .
Grant VermeerIt ended with so crazy enough , commander Murnane actually took us to climb the Chapel Dome , so the Naval Academy Chapel you can actually go up and climb . Commander Murnane climbed the Chapel Dome , so the Naval Academy Chapel you can actually go up and climb . Commander Rene climbed the Chapel Dome . I climbed about half of it before I got way too scared and stopped . But heights are not my favorite . But it just goes to show an example of the detailer and officer staff . Whether it's at the company level , between the company detailers and their company officer , or at the regimental level , between the regimental staff and the Plebe Summer OIC , those mentor-mentee relationships that the officers have with the detailers is just truly a really special piece of Plebe Summer .
Mike MurnaneYeah , I couldn't agree more .
Grant VermeerAbsolutely so , kind of with that . We talk a little bit about detailers and I'm sure a lot of people are wondering again , because detailers they seem so scary coming on the way in but at the end of the day , really they're just midshipmen . But then when you think , oh well , they're just midshipmen , how do we know they're qualified ? So , sir , if you don't mind just talking a little bit about how detailers make Plebe Summer , what it is , and what training do they receive in order to be qualified and competent to do that ?
Mike MurnaneSure , yeah , we go through a pretty rigorous process of selecting the midshipmen that will participate as plebe summer detailers . Many of them come to us during the academic year asking to be a part of it . Some of them have to kind of have the arm put around them and be told I think you'd be really good at this and I want you to experience this . And so there's a little more coercing for some folks , but by and large we put a staff together that is some of the best midshipmen we have in the brigade , and I think midshipmen intuitively know the importance of what plebe summer is . I know that they know it's hard , and so the midshipmen that sign up to do it , they know they're getting themselves into a big challenge , and so right away you've got folks that have had two or three years of time at the academy under their belt and they want to give back and they want to get that leadership experience , and so those folks are always inspiring to lead . It's obviously not every single one of them that is itching to come back and do that and , like I said , some have to be told . And so , yeah , we have a training program in the spring semester called the Leadership Development and Education Program , ldep , that we put the detailers through to make sure that there's a baseline level of knowledge . What they're about to embark on , you never know .
Mike MurnaneYou know as a plebe , you're just following orders and you're going and doing what they tell you to do and you feel like you can never do it fast enough , you can never do it well enough , you can never get it done exactly right and of course that's by design . It is always a demanding , challenging , difficult environment that we put people in to ensure that there's a stress component to doing our job . Our job in the fleet is going to involve a lot of stress and this is the first inoculation . This is the first time you get to experience it . But when you experience it as a plebe , you have no idea how hard the people running it are working . One of the things I know is you see from our side of things , as a detailer or a staff running Plebe Summer , you see that folks finally understand it's so much harder to run Plebe Summer than it is to be a plebe within Plebe Summer , and it's just so true and one of the things that everyone looks back on . You know their own plebe summer and and many academy grads will tell you they had the last real plebe summer and you and I both know that's not true . You never experience plebe summer twice .
Mike MurnaneYou never get that point of ignorance , that point of not knowing what you don't know , and that's part of the anxiety of being a plebe . You just don't know what you don't know and that's part of the anxiety of being a plebe . You just don't know what you don't know , getting comfortable , being uncomfortable , as Major Antonelli liked to say . You get comfortable being uncomfortable and you start to understand that it's okay not to know everything and to get yelled at and to learn on the fly . You're going to get yelled at in your life and that's a part of what we do .
Mike MurnaneIt's a tough business with exacting standards , and so this is the very first inoculation .
Mike MurnaneIt is not the most intense Navy training that is out there , but it is intense Navy training and for folks that do it for the first time it's quite difficult from the plea perspective and from the detailer perspective and , like you and I both know you look back on your own detailers and remember them , and some you remember fondly and some you don't remember fondly . And we tried during our pleb summer to make sure that our detail staff were the kind of people that were going to be remembered and respected . It's okay not to be remembered fondly , but to be respected and to know that you gave it your all and did everything you could do . That's what it takes , and so that leadership development program that we put the detailers through prior sets that baseline . There's a few courses that we take care of and some tests that we do right before the detailing set , but by and large we have a qualified staff ready to go and they don't know what they don't know either , and once the plebs hit the deck .
Mike Murnanethat's when the real learning starts , Absolutely .
Grant VermeerAnd that's so true when you talk about the detailed staff Like you don't have to be liked , but you need to be respected , and that was kind of something that I really wanted when I was reg commander . We talked a lot with my staff about , hey , we need to set the standard and set the expectation of what being a detailer is going to be about , and for us , being a detailer was embracing a culture of discipline where we treated everyone with dignity and respect . Like you're saying , it is a difficult Navy training , but it should never cross the line into anything that is inappropriately degrading in any way , shape or form . We're here to transform and develop people , to get them ready to become members of the brigade of midship , and that was our goal . That was the whole purpose of this Transition from being a civilian to a military break the old habits and create new ones and then build them up to be ready to join the brigade .
Grant VermeerAnd while you were doing that , it's very easy to have a memorable experience . When you're doing that with a lot of enthusiasm and energy , you never remember the detailers that were just there and not really doing anything . So we always talked about having a really positive attitude and working extremely hard and practicing exhaustive leadership , because when you're a detailer , you only have three weeks . There are two sets to Plebe Summer . There's a first set and a second set of detailers , so you have three weeks to make the impact and leave your training legacy on them , and so you need to not miss a single moment of doing that .
Grant VermeerSo , practicing exhaustive leadership , having enthusiasm , having energy and doing all of that with an aspect of dignity and respect that was my intent when I was the Reg Commander for our detail staff , because I wanted everyone like Commander Murnane was saying to be remembered as memorably , but in a positive fashion , and not necessarily for being nice , like oh , they were cool , but it was like no , they were good at their job , they worked hard , they treated everyone with respect and they were a great detailer . And so that was what I wanted for all of our detailers and , like Commander Rene said , I think it went extremely well . The company and platoon staff that we had for the class of 2020's Plebe Summer was phenomenal . There were zero issues at all , everyone was doing extremely well and it was just fun to watch , and I have such fond memories of being a detailer that summer . It was a really good time .
Mike MurnaneYeah . Well , for those of you listening out there , you can hear now why we selected Grant to be the regimental commander of that plebe summer class . That was so well stated . I could not have said it better myself , and Grant impressed us back then when we interviewed him Right .
Mike MurnaneSo the the veryalion officers and the deputy commandant and we interview these midshipmen that want the high leadership positions and the competition is fierce . There are like 70 midshipmen that come into that room and it's a tough room senior officers , 05s , 06s and a command master chief sitting in there and they've got to come in and answer about eight minutes worth of questions . By the time they get comfortable answering questions , we're telling them to leave . And that year I do remember just really enjoying the interview process . We had a great staff , like you said , and between you and Julia Arthur , who was the other regimental commander , I could not have asked for two better leaders to be at the top of the midshipmen chain of command and it made my life so easy . So thank you again , Grant , Absolutely I appreciate it If you don't mind .
Grant Vermeerso I was actually going to bring up the whole striper interview process next . What were you actually looking for in
Leadership Lessons in Plebe Summer
Grant Vermeerpeople during their interviews when it came to filling the spots and the billets that were available for plebe summer striper staff ?
Mike MurnaneYeah , that's it . That's an interesting question Because the first time I sat on the striper board I realized , as a midshipman , I never went to a striper board . So what am I looking for ? It was humbling , man , I'll tell you . There , grant , you and Julia and so many others that came into that room to interview had such great composure , were articulate , you could convey a sense of command and leadership , philosophy and an ability to respond . And we knew , we knew how pressurized that room was . Shoot , even one of us walking in and even though we know each other in there starting to get grilled by that group of people . Man , nobody's comfortable in that situation . Yeah , it's intimidating .
Mike MurnaneAnd so it sure is , and I mean , I know it's by design . And you sit across the table and everybody else is on the other side of the table and , man , there's no glass of water in sight . You get parched real fast . And man , there's no glass of water in sight . You get parched real fast .
Mike MurnaneAnd I've seen great midshipmen go into that room and have a hard time being able to articulate their thoughts and plans and goals and their leadership philosophy and that sort of thing .
Mike MurnaneAnd you know that the pressure of plebe summer is to the point we can't have someone that's going to fold underneath the pressure , and so that room is designed to be a little bit pressure packed . But we bring the stripers in and we grade each one of you guys out , and when I say stripers , I'm talking about the people that have the high leadership positions , and so we grade everyone out . And I know when you came through , grant , I gave you the highest marks of anyone that came into that room and that it was an easy decision for me . And I know my colleagues in that room . Many of them just put their pens down and sat back and smiled in their chair as you conducted that interview . So it was inspiring then , as your last speech was . It's inspiring now to listen to you and I know you're already doing great things in the fleet and that's as a result of some of the great lessons that you got to learn going through the tribulations that you had to go through at the academy .
Grant VermeerI really , really appreciate the kind words , sir . Okay , yeah , so once we get to the summer now . So everyone has been slated , everyone's been picked . We have the plebe summer detailing staff all set out insulated Everyone's been picked . We have the Plebe Summer detailing staff all set out During the lead up time and during the summer . What lessons were you trying to teach your officer staff so all the O3s working for you and then what were you trying to get the company level leadership to teach their detailers ? What were some of the big lessons that you wanted people to get out of Plebe Summer from the detailing side of things ?
Mike Murnanewanted people to get out of Plebe Summer . From the detailing side of things , yeah . So everyone needs to understand one that servant leadership is way harder than just being a follower . And everyone talks about , oh , plebe Summer or Plebe Year is the worst year and it's difficult , and everything else . Well , I definitely believe that the harder thing is leading and inspiring your peers , and so I talked with the officer staff a lot about peer leadership , about how difficult it is to inspire your peers and to get them to do what you need them to do .
Mike MurnaneAnd you know you guys , during the academic year , all have that same rank or , you know , close to it , and so , or at least
Lessons in Leadership and Mentorship
Mike Murnanecoming in as second-class midshipmen , you were all just second-class midshipmen . You were all just second-class midshipmen , juniors at the United States Naval Academy , and so now here you are with someone who's been through the same amount of training as you and you have more stripes on your shoulder and you're told to go ahead and lead them . Hey , that is the way of the military and that happens in actual . You know the military . Once you get out there and join the fleet , you know people will be promoted up the ranks faster , and so at some point in time you'll be looking at a peer and they'll either have a rank higher than you or lower than you and dealing with that , that peer leadership aspect , is so key .
Mike MurnaneTime management is so difficult in being able to predict all of the different things that are going to happen , which are it's impossible to predict the future , we know that . But to predict the trouble spots and to have plans and courses of action and things ready to go for when things don't go right , everyone has a plan . But no plan survives first contact and you know we had a great plan for how I-Day was going to go and we had to shuffle multiple times just on induction day to make sure that it worked .
Mike MurnaneAnd every day there's that challenge . And then , as the fatigue sets in , after the three or four-day point , I remember talking a lot to the staff about , ok , they're going to now feel the exhaustion of the adrenaline . Pump is done , the idea is come and gone . We've had that experience , we've gotten into a little bit of a rhythm and now exhaustion is going to start setting in and they're going to realize , oh my God , I'm working 18 or 19 hours just to try and make sure that their 14 , 14 hour day goes smoothly , and it is not easy . And so the ability to mentor and help people see that they need to develop rest plans and they need to take care of themselves so that they can do their job well . And again , it's another great fleet lesson . But that's , that's one of those things where the officer staff has to really be sharp in monitoring their people and looking out for those signs of fatigue and for those small mistakes and those little things , that when the little mistakes happen , that's when big mistakes start to follow . And so you want to catch it at the little mistakes , correct it , do it , you know , in a good , tactful manner . And you know typically , as we like to say . You know , praise in public and reprimand in private . You take someone aside in private and make those little corrections and then move them on . And then you know , you watch that growth and development , that aha moment of oh I get what you're saying now and you see that happen . And , man , from the , from the officer side , it's so inspiring to watch it . It's , trust me .
Mike MurnaneIt was just as exhausting for me and I remember Colonel Lissowski ordering me to take a weekend off and go . Let Lieutenant Colonel Coleman take charge of things . And we don't like to do that , we don't like to let go of things , but it is . It's a great lesson and it was an example that I had to . I'm trying to teach it to you guys . If I don't follow it , what kind of an example am I setting ? And so it's .
Mike MurnaneIt's an amazing way of looking at the prism of your own career and all of the experience you've had and what you've learned and the ability to share it . I know , I know I said this many times when I got back to the Naval Academy and to a lot of different people , but I felt like every tour that I had led me to my battalion officer tour , because every tour that I did in the Navy there was a story I could tell and share with you guys that could somehow marry up to what we were learning , what we were doing , what was going on , and it could help teach a lesson . We were doing what was going on and it could help teach a lesson . And you know , if we learn , if we learn lessons from anecdotes and stories , it's a lot better than learning it the hard way .
Grant VermeerAbsolutely , and so one of the big things that that stuck with me , that you always would talk about , is the idea of being a teacher , coach and mentor , and I just like I love that you're talking about the idea of a rest plan and making sure that you are properly getting the right amount of rest and doing everything that you're going , because that was something that felt like , again , I didn't want to do it . It's the same thing I was talking about earlier with exhaustive leadership , where I was like I only have three weeks , I want to do everything . But it was those conversations with you and realizing that you not need to take that time off , because I am a big believer in the power of presence and that's something that I tried to incorporate every single day was constantly walking around Brinkhoff Hall , constantly being present , all of the different companies , just so I could be there and see everything that was going on . But if you are not ready , you are not rested . If you are too tired to really be present in the moment , you might actually physically be there , but you're not there , you're not present in the moment , and that was such a major lesson that I learned during Cleve Summer because of your coaching and your mentorship , that in order to be present somewhere , you really need to be present . In order to be present , you have to be focused on that situation . The only way to do that is to make sure that you are taking care of yourself , so that way , you're adequately able to do that . So I just want to say thank you , because that was one of the biggest lessons I learned .
Grant VermeerAnd , going out onto deployment now , where I've been on three different deployments , it's very easy to drive yourself to the point of exhaustion where you are not operating at the level you should be .
Grant VermeerAnd making sure that you take the appropriate rest and trusting in your chiefs and trusting in your first class to lead so you are able to take the rest that you need in order to be leading at your prime ability , is so important , and that was just such a major lesson I learned through my time as a detailer and as a direct result of your teaching , coaching and mentorship . So thank you so much . And for all the parents and everyone listening out there , if you have a son or daughter that is going to be a detailer or eventually wants to be a detailer , building these relationships with the officer staff that's where you learn all of the major life and leadership lessons , because those are things that just you can't , they just don't happen unless you make an effort to build these relationships . So , sir , I just want to say thank you so much , because it was a tremendous opportunity and experience .
Mike MurnaneWell , it was always humbling and inspiring to work with you , grant , because I recognize that my time as a midshipman I was not quite as successful as you were as a midshipman , and so it always made me feel better that I had something to offer now , later on in my career , rather than not offering much back when I was a midshipman and there's .
Mike MurnaneYou know , there was nothing wrong with my time as a midshipman . I learned a lot of great lessons and there were amazing things that I got out of it , but I can honestly say it's a gift that keeps on giving . You know , as I see you guys out in the fleet anyone that I worked with it's been so rewarding to run back into you guys in the fleet and to hear the stories about what you're doing in the fleet and how it relates directly back to things we did . And so those pre-summer lessons , I knew I wasn't just trying to teach you some abstract theory that you would never use again in your life . I was teaching you something that you know hopefully you'd put to use right away . It sounds like you sure did so again . It's really rewarding to me to hear those stories back again , and you were one of the easy ones to teach coach and mentor .
Grant VermeerI appreciate it , sir . All right Moving on now to . We talked coach and mentor . I appreciate it , sir . All right Moving on now to . We talked about the detailing staff . We mentioned that there's a company officer and a senior enlisted leader with each Plebe Summer company . Sir , if you don't mind
Company Officers and Senior Enlisted Roles
Grant Vermeerjust explaining a little bit about the role of each company officer and senior enlisted leader during Plebe Summer , yeah Well , I'll tell you .
Mike Murnaneeven I'll dial it back a little bit further . That senior enlisted leader thing started when I was a midshipman . They started sending enlisted personnel back to the academy . It's one of the greatest things we've done at the Naval Academy is incorporating chief petty officers , gunnery sergeants and senior enlisted personnel . They get to look at you guys , and they know that in a couple months , a year or two , you're going to be the one leading them and they have a real vested interest in making you the product that they want to be led by . Man , it's magical . So those senior enlisted leaders in the Plebe summer companies , man , they offer just an amazing insight to life in the fleet . They're a great conduit between our fleet returning sailors that are going to go through it , go through the academy experience , and they can translate a lot of things . And so that experience is so invaluable .
Mike MurnaneThe senior chiefs , the gunnery sergeants , all of those folks participating at the senior enlisted level . And so they're paired with a company officer , and so the company officer is a you know , a lieutenant who has come back off of sea duty from their first operational tour , and so they're in their first shore duty tour , where they're , you know , many of them have come back to the academy . You know their academy grads themselves . Many of them have come back to the Academy . You know their Academy grads themselves and many of them have not . It's not a majority , but you know a sizable minority of them are not Academy grads and they it doesn't matter whether you have an Academy grad or not , all of them come back and they they learn more about managing larger numbers of people and that that mentoring role and the fleet experience that they can share .
Mike MurnaneIt's so close to what you guys are going to go experience that it's just an invaluable resource for the , for the midshipman and then for the company officer to practice that that kind of leadership .
Mike MurnaneAnd so they get to mentor each one of the companies . So a smaller number of midshipmen underneath them they have a smaller group to kind of look out for the day-to-day operations while the more senior folks look at the entire operation in the larger picture . But they kind of get involved right knee deep in it with the company level leadership and so that that mentorship role I think really works well and some of them just their fleet experience drives them to be superb company officers and it's it's so fun to watch the mentorship and their ability to connect to the detailers and inspire them to , you know , to lead boldly and to do great things and to understand that they're going to work harder than they perceive the plebs to be working , and so that I got to witness a lot of that during really both plebe summers that I served in , but certainly our plebe summer . It was great to watch and observe .
Grant VermeerAbsolutely All right . Now we're going to get a little bit more personal to you , sir . Do you have a favorite memory or a story from either your plebe summer or from your time as the plebe summer , oic .
Mike MurnaneWell , shoot , I would say my plebe summer , my favorite memory , which still to this day makes me and several of my friends laugh . But I remember we were in the hallway and there was some squad leader instructional period going on which really translated into a lot of PT for us plebes . We were doing a lot of flutter kicks and pushups and that sort of thing .
Mike MurnaneInstructing you not to suck so bad right , that's right , and just trying to inspire me to be a better version of me . Well , I do remember at one point in time I got put down in the pushup position and a copy of midshipman regulations made it on the floor underneath my face while I was doing pushups and the squad leader told me to read from the paragraph . Well , I was stuttering and stammering while he's saying down and up , and I was having a really hard time reading it . Well , the reason I was having a hard time reading it is the book was upside down in front of me . All of my buddies that were standing on the wall getting yelled at in a position of attention , couldn't you know they were not allowed to look down and see what was happening with me . Well , one of my very good friends shared with me later that year that he thought I was illiterate and he couldn't . He couldn't figure out how I got into the naval academy and I couldn't even read a book exactly it was totally that sort of thing .
Mike MurnaneAnd course I didn't find out about it until four months later . We wound up striking off as friends and hanging out together . And you know , after the first Army Navy game that we went to , which was a Navy win , my plea beer makes it all all that much better . It was a lot of fun and we were sharing stories and that story came out . So I think that one I've told many , many times and I really , I really love it .
Mike MurnaneBut you know , I think my favorite memory of our plebe summer actually occurred before plebe summer started , and that was when , you know , I got you and Julia together and we started talking about what was in front of us and the work that we were going to have to put in . And I just remember that from the previous year , my experience as the assistant officer in charge , I learned a couple of lessons that I thought were really important . So I started to try and share them with you guys , and before I could even elaborate on what I was talking about , you and Julia had it . Man , it was so inspiring . I think I remember starting to relax once we named our stripers and you and Julia were in charge and you guys would come to the meetings and you would have input and you would have just really good insight into what was going on and what needed to be done , such that when you know , right before I day , getting ready for first set and then right before the turnover to second set , all of that hard work was already done before we got there . And I knew you know the year before as the assistant officer in charge , that those are critical periods , those are hard times , and you and Julia made it that much better because you guys put hard work in ahead of time , and so my memory of that is pretty acute and pretty great .
Mike MurnaneI won't lie and say that as the last parade of Cleve Summer went by , I did have a smile as I got on the bus to ride back over to Alumni Hall with the distinguished visitors and just said oh , thank God . I think there's one other picture that I savored . Up on the podium at PEP , someone took a picture of me just enjoying watching all of the plebs run off the field . It may have been you that took it , but I savor that picture because I remember it was close to the end of the summer , it was one of our last PEP sessions , and I do remember feeling pretty rewarded at that point in time . So I gave you a couple extra memories , more than what you asked for , but as we reminisce , I have a lot of fond memories of that summer .
Grant VermeerI absolutely love it . Thank you for sharing all those . I really appreciate it . All right , so , sir , the majority of our listeners are people actually that are about to come for Plebe Summer
Advice for Naval Academy Plebe Summer
Grant Vermeer, so a lot of people who have received their appointments to the Naval Academy . So , as we talk to them , what is your best piece of advice for anyone about to go through Plebe Summer ?
Mike MurnaneYeah , it is going to be a stressful event and right now , be comfortable with the fact that it will be stressful . My mother still remembers dropping me off at Alumni Hall , at the doors , to go in and start the induction day I-day process , and I don't know who it was . It was a member of the Plebe Summer staff . But someone came up to my mother and grabbed my mother and she could they could see the concern on her face and they said don't worry , ma'am , we haven't lost one yet . And to this day , to this day , I don't know if he was talking about a mother or a plea , but either way , it was comforting to her , and so I will tell the parents that have anxiety about that moment that it's OK , it's a great journey . You'll see them at the end of the day and you will be amazed already at the transition that has happened to your son or daughter at that point in time , as they're standing in front of you in a uniform , with a new haircut of sorts and a new look on their face .
Mike MurnaneBut what you're going to embark on is going to change who you are in a profound way for the good . It's going to teach you the sacrifice of hard work . It's going to teach you how to prioritize time , manage and become the best version of yourself . And so , if you embrace it , if you embrace it as a challenge , don't think about all the things that you're giving up , you're missing out on or anything else . If you embrace that challenge and understand that that four year road is lightning fast , it happens before you know it .
Mike MurnaneIt's not that long of a seven week or eight week summer , from when you get dropped off to when you , when you have parents weekend , and then when you join the brigade , and then , and there's just little milestones all along the way that you have to look forward to .
Mike MurnaneAnd , man , you know that climbing of Herndon at the end of Plebeier boy , that's , that's something that you think about all Plebeier long , what that's going to feel like , and it feels as good as you imagine it to feel . And then every one of those milestones along the way feels as good as you imagine it . And so just understand , you don't run a marathon in one big step . You run it many short steps and you have to persevere and you have to have , you have to have some tenacity and you got to learn about yourself along the way , so be open to learn about yourself . Show up in good shape . Be physically fit when you get there . You don't want to have to try and get into shape over plebe summer . That makes plebe summer markedly more difficult if you have to get in shape .
Mike MurnaneYeah , so do show up in shape and then enjoy it . It is you're going to . You heard me . You know that was 1991 . I hate to admit that . 28 years on . I can still vividly remember doing pushups over the top of that midship and regulations book , and so you're going to create some memories that are going to last . They're going to last .
Mike MurnaneOh , absolutely , and so embrace that and know that it's a fundamental experience to who you will be . Whether you eventually graduate or not , it doesn't even matter , it's a fundamental part of who you will be for the rest of your life is that you're going to experience something that not a lot of people get an opportunity to experience .
Grant VermeerYeah , without a doubt . So I'm just going to go ahead and try and summarize what we've been talking about a little bit really quickly , and so I think , after all of this discussion , which has been absolutely tremendous and extremely valuable , I think we can simplify it as this is that there are detailers and officer and senior enlisted staff that are carefully selected , well-trained , and they did it because they want to be a part of this development and growth process . The objective of Plebe Summer is to indoctrinate you into becoming military members , to transition from being a civilian into a military member and then basically build you into a basically trained midshipman that is ready to join the brigade . And all of this allows the detailers to get this defining leadership experience that we talk about , with all the teaching , coaching and mentoring in this real world experience of leadership and leading plebes that I want to get across to the point that everything that happens during plebe summer a lot of it will not be fun . It will be very stressful and there'll be a lot of pressure , but it is not personal .
Grant VermeerNone of it is ever personal . We are there with a job and we do it because we care , and we do it because we care about the plebes and we want them to become the best versions of themselves as people and leaders as they can possibly be . So that's always my best advice is realize that whenever you feel like you may be getting a lot of negative attention potentially it's never personal and it's always in the best interest of you , whether or not it feels like it in the moment . So I think those are kind of some of the really really big things and , commander Rene , thank you so much for coming on to talk about it . But before we finally wrap up , we do have a lightning round of quick questions here for you to answer the first of which is what is your favorite spot on the yard ?
Mike MurnaneThere's a chestnut tree across from the chapel and , for whatever reason , walking from my house to Bancroft Hall every day for some reason , just walking underneath that chestnut tree . It's out on just off of Stripling Walk , but on I forget the name of the walk that it's on , but it's one of the curved paths along the way and it's just . It's just a neat , really old tree and I can't imagine the number of amazing military people that have walked past that chestnut tree . So that's , I think that's my past that chestnut tree . So that's , I think that's my favorite spot on the yard .
Grant VermeerThat's really cool . That's a unique answer and I love it All , right , sir . Well , what either from your time as a midshipman or as a battalion officer ? What's your favorite meal in King hall ?
Mike MurnaneChicken tenders with poulet sauce . Come on , man , I didn't . I instruct you on this . What God , I feel like I failed what . I know so you guys . So , captain Hughes , the suppo , while we were there , brought it back your senior year . There was a picture of this mushroom cream sauce , poulet sauce , oh , that's right .
Mike MurnaneAnd I tried to get you guys to dig it and no one in your class really liked it . But when we were midshipmen and the bin of chicken tenders would come out , especially as a plebe , you would get dispatched from your table and you would have to go politely ask the King Hall workers if you could get one extra tray of chicken tenders , if there were any extras left . And so when the chicken tenders and poulet sauce were out , that was always my job in my squad as a plebe , so that was my favorite meal , Fantastic .
Grant VermeerAll right . The next one and I forgot to put it in the outline , so sorry is what's your favorite book ? And then kind of along , that is , is there a book that you would recommend for someone who is about to head to the Naval Academy for Plebe Summer ? They can be the same book , but I just kind of preface it in two ways .
Mike MurnaneYeah , I've read . So this is going to take me full circle to where the people listening are . On my interview with the folks the blue and gold team to get my nomination to the Academy , they asked me about tell us about the books you've read , and I gave them an answer , and I hope some of you recognize it . I said I've read dozens of books about heroes and crooks and I've learned much from both of their styles , and so that's a Jimmy Buffett quote . Okay , but I used it in my interview and no one called me on it when I use that line in the interview . But I have read a ton of books and I will tell you a couple books that are always on my shelf . One is Gates of Fire by Pressfield .
Grant VermeerI love it .
Mike MurnaneYou know we read it when we were there . It was assigned to us to read and it was a second read for me . It's what the movie 300 is based on , but I love that book and , as a military person , I find a lot of great joy in that one . I read a book in high school called Siddhartha . Herman Hess is the author of that one and it's . It was kind of an Eastern philosophy , buddha sort of thing , but it's about the journey of a young man to adulthood and finding that inner peace , and it's a short read but it's one I would recommend to everyone and anyone .
Mike MurnaneAnother book I read while I was at the Academy recommended to me by one of my company officers because he felt that a lot of things that I talked about were within this book , and it's called Resilience . Resilience is a book written by a former Navy SEAL , eric Greitens . He's got a bit of a colorful past here recently and so I hesitate to lead with that one , but I will tell you that Resilience , the book , is a phenomenal read for anyone that's undertaking difficult tasks , whatever it is . Resilience is the key to life , and there's a book out there . I haven't gotten to yet but I'm going to read . It's called the Obstacle is the Way and it's a little bit of a stoic philosophy . I really believe in embracing challenges in your life .
Mike MurnaneNobody writes books about how easy it was to do what they did . Everyone writes books about the challenges they overcame , and so that resilience book talks a lot about the qualities and characteristics of a resilient person and it's a bunch of personal letters from Greitens to a former SEAL team member who was having a real hard time coming back to the civilian world and living as a civilian . His marriage was on the rocks , his job was on the rocks . He just had a hard time . But the letters that he writes back to him are absolutely filled with wisdom and I was really impressed by that book . So , real quick , those are three books that I could tell you . I think would fit for anyone about to embark this journey .
Grant VermeerAbsolutely , man . That's great . I need to read two of those . Gates of Fire is one of my absolute favorite and for anyone listening , it just provides so much commentary and insight into leadership , but specifically military leadership and the role of an officer within a military unit , and so , on top of it just being an entertaining story , there's so much insight and great wisdom that you get out of it . So thank you for those recommendations and great . The last question is what advice would you give to any of your children if they were attending the Naval Academy ?
Mike MurnaneThat's funny , you would ask . I tried to make that happen . My oldest daughter is going to college this year , so she has chosen not to go to a service academy and that's okay . I'm all right with that .
Mike MurnaneBut if I was going to sit one of my children down , the advice I gave a few minutes back about embracing the challenge , about understanding that this is shaping who you are , someone who is willing to take on something harder than most other people , embrace that opportunity , thrive in that environment and you will succeed , no matter where you go . Those qualities they get learned . This is why Naval Academy grads have a good reputation around the world , regardless of whether they serve a career in the military or not . The things that you learn in all service academies , the things that you learn in a service academy it just shows that you have a humble nature , willing to work hard , and that you'll take on the big challenges . And I love that reputation and I do everything I can to maintain that reputation and I've tried to instill it in my own children , as I've got four crazy children of my own .
Grant VermeerWell , sir , thank you so much for coming on the Academy Insider Podcast and sharing some of your insight and just true wisdom and kindness . So thank you so much , Really really appreciate it .
Mike MurnaneMy pleasure Grant Anytime for you , certainly , but I really enjoyed that role and that time at the Academy and I love our alma mater and I love to call it our alma mater now .
Grant VermeerAbsolutely . I'm glad to call it our alma mater too , for sure , All right , Well , thank you so much and for everyone listening , thank you for tuning in and I hope you all have a great day . Thanks , Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Academy Insider Podcast . I really hope you liked it , enjoyed it and learned something during this time . If you did , please feel free to like and subscribe or leave a comment about the episode . We really appreciate to hear your feedback about everything and continue to make Academy Insider an amazing service that guides , serves and supports midshipmen , future midshipmen and their families . Thank you .
