The Herndon Climb Tradition at the United States Naval Academy
Rear Admiral James McNeal joins me to narrate the saga of the Naval Academy's Herndon Climb. The Herndon Climb has long been seen as a milestone event for fourth class midshipmen (freshmen or “plebes”) at the Naval Academy. Demonstrating the teamwork and perseverance they have learned during their first year at the academy, the plebes build a human pyramid to remove the “dixie cup” cover (hat) at the top of the vegetable shortening-covered monument and replace it with an upperclassman’s cover. After successfully completing the Herndon Climb, the freshmen are no longer called plebes but “fourth class midshipmen.”
Together, we peel back layers of history to uncover the spirit and camaraderie that this storied event embodies. Admiral McNeal, bringing a treasure trove of anecdotes from his comprehensive history of the climb, gives us an intimate portrayal of this physical and mental challenge that binds midshipmen in an unforgettable rite of passage. I reflect on my own experiences, weaving personal stories into today's conversation.
We delve into the creation of Admiral McNeal's book, revealing the meticulous process that captures the essence of the Herndon Climb through the voices of diverse graduates, including groundbreaking narratives from women graduates of the '80s. The Naval Institute Press plays a pivotal role, bringing the Admiral's diligent research and heartfelt stories to a wider audience, offering a window into the enduring legacy of the Herndon Climb.
Share in the reflections on leadership that hinge on the Academy's core principles, as we discuss the role it plays in shaping the midshipmen into leaders of integrity and vision. We tap into the wisdom of military leaders like Admiral Carter and highlight the bonds formed at the Academy that form a lifelong network of support. For those with a keen interest in Navy traditions, aspiring applicants, or anyone who values the intersection of history and leadership, this episode sheds light on why the Naval Academy remains a beacon of excellence and camaraderie.
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families.
Grant Vermeer your host is the person who started it all. He is the founder of Academy Insider and the host of The Academy Insider podcast and the USNA Property Network Podcast. He was a recruited athlete which brought him to Annapolis where he was a four year member of the varsity basketball team. He was a cyber operations major and commissioned into the Cryptologic Warfare Community. He was stationed at Fort Meade and supported the Subsurface Direct Support mission.
He separated from the Navy in 2023 and now owns The Vermeer Group, a boutique residential real estate company that specializes in serving the United States Naval Academy community PCSing to California & Texas.
We are here to be your guide through the USNA experience.
Connect with Grant on Linkedin
Academy Insider Website
Academy Insider Facebook Page
If you are interested in sponsoring the podcast, have an idea, question or topic you would like to see covered, reach out: podcast@academyinsider.com.
The Herndon Climb Tradition at the United States Naval Academy
Rear Admiral James McNeal joins me to narrate the saga of the Naval Academy's Herndon Climb. The Herndon Climb has long been seen as a milestone event for fourth class midshipmen (freshmen or “plebes”) at the Naval Academy. Demonstrating the teamwork and perseverance they have learned during their first year at the academy, the plebes build a human pyramid to remove the “dixie cup” cover (hat) at the top of the vegetable shortening-covered monument and replace it with an upperclassman’s cover. After successfully completing the Herndon Climb, the freshmen are no longer called plebes but “fourth class midshipmen.”
Together, we peel back layers of history to uncover the spirit and camaraderie that this storied event embodies. Admiral McNeal, bringing a treasure trove of anecdotes from his comprehensive history of the climb, gives us an intimate portrayal of this physical and mental challenge that binds midshipmen in an unforgettable rite of passage. I reflect on my own experiences, weaving personal stories into today's conversation.
We delve into the creation of Admiral McNeal's book, revealing the meticulous process that captures the essence of the Herndon Climb through the voices of diverse graduates, including groundbreaking narratives from women graduates of the '80s. The Naval Institute Press plays a pivotal role, bringing the Admiral's diligent research and heartfelt stories to a wider audience, offering a window into the enduring legacy of the Herndon Climb.
Share in the reflections on leadership that hinge on the Academy's core principles, as we discuss the role it plays in shaping the midshipmen into leaders of integrity and vision. We tap into the wisdom of military leaders like Admiral Carter and highlight the bonds formed at the Academy that form a lifelong network of support. For those with a keen interest in Navy traditions, aspiring applicants, or anyone who values the intersection of history and leadership, this episode sheds light on why the Naval Academy remains a beacon of excellence and camaraderie.
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families.
Grant Vermeer your host is the person who started it all. He is the founder of Academy Insider and the host of The Academy Insider podcast and the USNA Property Network Podcast. He was a recruited athlete which brought him to Annapolis where he was a four year member of the varsity basketball team. He was a cyber operations major and commissioned into the Cryptologic Warfare Community. He was stationed at Fort Meade and supported the Subsurface Direct Support mission.
He separated from the Navy in 2023 and now owns The Vermeer Group, a boutique residential real estate company that specializes in serving the United States Naval Academy community PCSing to California & Texas.
We are here to be your guide through the USNA experience.
Connect with Grant on Linkedin
Academy Insider Website
Academy Insider Facebook Page
If you are interested in sponsoring the podcast, have an idea, question or topic you would like to see covered, reach out: podcast@academyinsider.com.
Welcome to Season 2 of the Academy Insider Podcast. Academy Insider is a 501c3 nonprofit organization that serves midshipmen, future midshipmen and their families. At its core, this podcast is designed to bring together a community of Naval Academy graduates and those affiliated with the United States Naval Academy in order to tell stories and provide a little bit of insight into what life at the Naval Academy is really like. I hope you enjoy it. Thank you so much for listening and reach out if you ever have any questions. The Academy Insider Podcast is sponsored by the Vermeer Group, a residential real estate company that serves the United States Naval Academy community and other select clientele in both California and Texas. If I can ever answer a real estate related question for you or connect you with a trusted Academy affiliated agent in the market which you're in, please reach out to me directly at grantatthevermiergroupcom. You can also reach out to me on my LinkedIn page, Grant Vermeer, and I'd be happy to respond to you there. Thank you so much, and now let's get back to the episode. Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Academy Insider Podcast.
Speaker 1:In today's episode, which is a republished episode from 2020, I'm joined by Rear Admiral James McNeil. Admiral McNeil is a Herndon Climb expert. He's actually authored a book called the Herndon Climb a history to the Herndon Climb at the United States Naval Academy, and he just knows all about it. So in this episode we do a deep dive into the origins and history of the Herndon Climb, how it's developed over the years and then, with radical transparency, the good and the bad that's come with the Herndon Climb over the years. So if you're interested in learning a little bit about the history and origins of the climb, what it means to midshipmen and how it's developed over the years, make sure to check out this episode.
Speaker 1:If you do like it, please feel free to subscribe and like the podcast, leave a review and share it with family and friends. I would really appreciate it. Thank you so much and if you ever have any questions, feel free to reach out to me directly. Thank you so much. I hope you have a good day and enjoy the episode. All right, hey everyone, and welcome to the Academy Insider Podcast. And, Jim, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today to talk all about Herndon. I really, really appreciate it, Really excited to be here, Absolutely. But before we get started in today's episode, do you mind just telling the audience. A little bit about yourself, so where are you from, how you ended up at the Naval Academy, and then a little bit about your naval career.
Speaker 2:Sure, absolutely happy to. So I grew up in the Granada Hills area of Los Angeles. My dad is a 1962 Annapolis grad and you'll have to read the book to find out a little bit of my journey. But suffice it to say that my dad motivated me to go to the academy. I was not one of the high school elite, so I spent a year up in Newport, rhode Island, at NAPS. My wife, who came in straight from high school, likes to refer me as the dumb one that had to go to NAPS.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:But I did that and did my four years and graduated with the best class ever to graduate, the class of 1986.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. And then, what did you service select and what did you do in your naval career?
Speaker 2:So I was a nurse while rugby player at the academy and enjoyed the heck out of that but ended up hurting myself double shoulder dislocation and so I was medically disqualified from surface line and marine things like that. I ended up in the supply corps, which absolutely was the great move for me. I was very, very happy for that. So I was six years active duty. I did my first two years on an aircraft carrier out of San Diego and then halfway through that tour, moved over to a destroyer and then my last two years on active duty was the supply officer at SEAL Team 1 and did that and then transitioned to the reserve component, did 25 years in the reserves and retired in 2017.
Speaker 1:Wow, fantastic, and again, thank you for taking the time to come on. And today's episode is really all about the Herndon climb. Um, so if someone who may be listening is not tremendously familiar with what Herndon is at all, can you just take a quick second to explain what Herndon is and how it relates to the life of a midshipman?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, so the Herndon Climb is the rite of passage for the fourth class midshipmen, known as plebes, who at the end of their plebe year, before they can officially be considered fourth class midshipmen, over the years a tradition has developed where they were required to climb the Herndon Monument. The Herndon Monument is a 21-foot obelisk, very similar to the Washington Monument in look, named after Captain William Herndon. We can certainly get into his background. The tradition is that the sophomores at the academy that year will put grease on the monument and then, as a team-building exercise, the plebes will attempt to get to the top of it with a human pyramid. There's a fourth class midshipman plebe, a Dixie cup on top. So they try to get someone to the top. They take the Dixie cup off and then they take a midshipman combo cover and they replace the Dixie cup with the combination cover and once that happens, then plebe year is officially over. And and you know, and you're laughing because you know, you know you- know it's the greatest feeling I've ever had in my life.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's funny you say that because if I could share the story of kind of how this book all happened. So my co-author, scott Tomaszewski, him and I have known each other since seventh grade and he's a writer. We were on a newspaper together in high school and he's written a lot of books a book, a science fiction, time travel series, and so in 2015, he called me one day out of the blue in May and said hey, I was watching ESPN SportsCenter and I saw a thing at the academy called the Herndon Climb and it looked really interesting. Have you ever heard of it? And I said, yeah, I've heard of it, have you ever?
Speaker 2:heard of it and I said, yeah, I've heard of it. In fact it's the second best day of my life, because graduation was the first and Herndon was the second best. And he said, well, I think it'd be a great book. And at the time I was, I was still in the reserves and I had been recalled to active duty. I had a pretty big assignment and I was the thought of writing a book. I'd always kind of wanted to write a book, but the thought of doing it at that point was kind of daunting. So he started to be very excited and go into the great detail about what he thought the book could be.
Speaker 2:And as he's doing that, I'm Googling Herndon book on Amazon because I'm getting ready to tell them hey, look, I don't want to write the 17th book about Herndon, you know, and I'm really busy. And so I went on Amazon and there wasn't a book and I said, okay, well, there's got to be something, and really the only. If you go, if you Google Herndon climb, the only thing that there is is a. There's some links to some newspaper articles, but mostly the one consolidated source of the Herndon Climb is a Wikipedia page. And so I started to say, hey, there might be something here.
Speaker 2:But I said, hey, look, it's going to have to be until I retire. When I retire is when I'll have an opportunity to do it. I'm just I've got too much going on right now. So we kind of kept in touch, we put an outline together and then, coincidentally, my wife who's also a classmate we moved to Maryland, she got her PhD and she got hired as a professor at Towson University in Baltimore and so we moved to Maryland and so we were here and we had the opportunity to really dig into the research and I figured the Naval Institute Press would be potentially a good publishing source, and so we met with them and presented the idea for the book and a sample chapter, and much little to our surprise. We thought it was a great idea, but they agreed with us and signed a contract and so the book is in, it's now being edited and it'll be out September 1st.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. And so what's the working title of the book right now? And then, on top of that, is it more of like an informational, factual book, or a book consolidated of stories and different historical experiences of people going through the Herndon Climb?
Speaker 2:So great question.
Speaker 2:So the title of the book is the Herndon Climb A History of the United States Naval Academy's Greatest Tradition. And we, you know, we, when we first started looking at it, we might kind, of, the way I envisioned, envisioned the project going because, as I said, there's just a Wikipedia page and I thought, hey, you know, let's, let's dig into this thing and let's do a research project and we'll kind of trace this thing from, you know, from beginning to end. And as we kind of dug into that, we, you know, we said, hey, this is, we don't want to write a textbook, you know, we don't want to write a textbook, we don't want to write a research paper. So, while we do have some of the history in there, we cover a lot of different things. So one of the things that we do is we do give and frankly there's not a lot of history about it we did to the best of our ability, do a lot of research at the library, at the the Naval Academy Nimitz Library, kind of determined, kind of how we think it evolved.
Speaker 2:We we dug into, certainly, Captain Herndon and his story. We dug into a lot of different class stories. Our sample chapter is the class of 98 climb, which is the longest on record, which is four hours and five minutes. That's a long time. That's a long time. It's a long time and it's an interesting story. So that was actually our sample chapter that we pitched to the publisher. We have a chapter about Kristen Dickman, who was a class of 2011 and who passed away in her sleep right before the Herndon climb. So we have a chapter about her and her story. We have a chapter about the women and how their time over the climb has evolved, specifically how women in the 80s were treated and you know, no spoiler alert here, but they weren't treated very well and my wife certainly can attest to that.
Speaker 2:In fact, what was really interesting was, while I view and you view Herndon as such a great day to a lot of the women, especially the ones in the classes of the early 80s, they were treated so poorly to them it's not a pleasant memory, so we cover that in that chapter.
Speaker 2:At the end of the book I get to kind of tell my story of how I ended up at the Academy and my plebe year, and then we also have, uh, three chapters that are broken up, which is a second person account of the climb and and the goal of that is what are really goals of this is not to have it just be interesting to alumni. Uh, we want, uh, non-alumni to to be able to understand it. I, I just I certainly described it in a short amount of time, but we felt it was important in the book to allow a reader to get into the head of a plea that's going to be going through this and the things that happened. We also talk about the greasing of it with First Company and the company that's responsible for greasing it, and we also have a section there where we interviewed Admiral Jeff Fowler, who is a superintendent, three superintendents ago, and we interviewed Admiral Fowler and he is he's very anti Herndon.
Speaker 1:OK.
Speaker 2:And so we, what we ended up doing was allowing him to tell his story, and he makes an interesting point. Again, we're very pro Herndon, but you know he makes some interesting points. So so what we really tried to do in the in the book is, uh, talk about, uh, captain herndon why you know why there was a monument named after captain herndon as best as we could tell the evolution of the climb, individual climb stories uh, some funny, uh, some sad, uh, some uh, uh, you know your laugh, you'll cry, etc. And then, uh, then, and then a second person account, like I said. So we can probably try to get them in the minds of someone doing it. So we hope it has something for everybody. And you know, you just don't know. We we've gotten, of course, positive feedback, but uh, you know, when your mom says they like it, that's not. Uh, you know that's not feedback, that's not.
Speaker 1:you know that's not feedback. Yeah, so for a book that ranges throughout so much time and so many different perspectives, how did you even go about starting to do the research for that Like? Are there books out there that document each hernia and climb that you were able to research, or how did you pull together this information? Great question.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so we. So one of the things when we submitted our, our proposal, we had a sample, a table of content. So, like I said, we kind of had an kind of had an idea of where we wanted to go with the book. But what was what really really made it fun was was that it went in a lot of different directions. So, for example, uh, we had no I, we had no one of our initial chapters. We thought was hey, wouldn't it be cool to talk to you know the famous people that have done it? You know, this was when John McCain was alive. So, like a John McCain, you know Robert Staubach, people like that.
Speaker 2:And we, just as we started going through, we realized, well, other than being famous, you know they're, they don't, I mean, they don't necessarily have an interesting story, right? So then we, we started going out and and and talking to people, and I posted a lot on LinkedIn and social media, some Facebook groups that I that I belong to, and I said, hey, if you have an interesting story, I'd like to hear it. And that's really where the women chapter was born, because I got probably half a dozen emails from women that are now in their 50s, from the classes in the early 80s, and they all said essentially the same thing, which is well, I have a story to tell, but are you interested in telling the real story, or are you interested, or are you just going to gloss over what happened to us? And no, I'm interested in telling the true story. So, so, that that was.
Speaker 2:That was a piece of it. And then, as I would, as we were talking to people, they would say hey, um, have you talked to so-and-so from the class of whatever? Well, no, well, they've got a really great story. So it just kind of took on a life of its own.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I would say, probably you know the Kristen Dickman story. We knew we were going to do that. She's buried in the Naval Academy Cemetery. So you know, that was a story we knew we were going to do, um, but a lot of the other ones just kind of went in the direction we just didn't know. And that was really what made it a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:So the way that we divided the book up was I did, uh, all the interviewing, I did most of the research. Uh, scott's wife did some of the research but she did also all the transcription. So 45 minute interviews and she transcribed those. Yeah, I mean, the true hero of the book is Nancy, because she spent hours and hours and hours and hours of doing the transcription and then those would go to Scott and then he would write the chapter and then he'd send it to me. And one of the things that was really important to me and was really something I told him was you know, I want to have the kind of the final cut, not that I'm going to change words or rewrite things, grad, I don't want to. You know someone to say hey, you know on the campus and you know things like that and saying, saying on the yard, I want to make sure that we're someone reading this says, oh yeah, that's this, this is a person who went there and so this.
Speaker 2:Because if it didn't, you know, sometimes you watch, you know things about the Navy on TV or movies and and they wear their kidney wrong or they just do things and you're like, okay, this thing's ridiculous, because that would never happen. So I was really concerned about that. Scott did a wonderful job but again, unless you go to the naval academy, you don't know some of the inside stuff. So but, uh, no, we and and we got, we had a lot of latitude with, uh, with the publisher, the naval ens, naval Insuit Press.
Speaker 2:They're ones that publish proceedings. They were really great with us, gave us great support, had a lot of pictures that we were able to use. So that's the other thing. That's really fun is there are a lot of old pictures in there of some of the first climbs and that was a lot of fun. So it should be a good read. There's good pictures, a lot of fun, so it should be a good read, there's good pictures. And again, it should be something that, whether you're a grad or you have no familiarity at all with the Herndon climb, you should enjoy.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. I do want to ask a couple of questions and actually hopefully maybe pick some of these things out of the book. Already you talked a little bit about talking about the evolution of Herndon In your research and everything that you've been doing. Has Herndon evolved from the start or has it really remained relatively the same throughout the years?
Speaker 2:Oh, good question. So what we were able to determine and again this is in the book is that you know, back before there was the Navy Marine Corps Stadium. Graduation was held on Thompson Field, which is kind of roughly the side of the alumni hall now and over by the chapel, so basically the you know, kind of the road between the chapel and Stribling Walk. That area was an area they called Lover's Lane and it had big hedges and upper class were allowed to take their drags, their dates there on Sundays. And the idea was and again, this is in the early 1900s and the idea was and again, this is in the early 1900s. And so there wasn't any sort of wild making out going on, right, everybody's very prim and proper, but the idea was that a male you get no women there obviously at that time and male midshipmen could take their drags and sit in lover's lane and, you know, a little bit of privacy with the big hedges, and it was essentially right in front of Herndon. So if you in one of the interesting things about a lot of interesting things, one of the interesting things about the Herndon monuments, the only monument on the yard that's never been moved. So so if you ever see an old picture of the academy and you find Herndon and that will orient you to the academy because everything else is moved. That will orient you to the academy because everything else is moved.
Speaker 2:So this started in early 1900s and there was no Herndon climb, obviously, and graduation happened and so the plebes, after the upper or the first class, graduated, became third class men, shipment, and a lot of them started running and became a tradition to run over to lover's lane and to start, uh, just kind of, you know, saying, hey, we get to be here now because they were prohibited as plebs from being in love with playing. And then the tradition became that they started doing a snake dance and if you know snake dances, you have your hips on the person in front of you and you know they would celebrate by doing this snake dance all around lover's lane. And again, it was by herndon and as is, like uh, still the tradition today. Uh as as uh a lot of times, even though, uh, you know you remember them as a lot of times, even though you know you remember them as a plebe, but now they're a third class and they're really kind of being so demonstrative that I think it started to irritate the remaining upper class. Or hey, five minutes ago you were plebes and now you think you're pretty special. So then the snake dance.
Speaker 2:After the snake dance was over, they would take a picture in front of Herndon. And then they started to take pictures where they had climbed up, herndon and I and best as we can tell. That's kind of, I think, where the upper class just said OK, this, this is. You guys are going crazy and you're just, you're throwing this in our face and we're really starting to get irritated. So to prevent you from climbing up the herndon monument, we're going to put grease on it, make it harder for you I love this and that has been.
Speaker 2:And again that this is by by no means a definitive history, yeah, but that's about the best way that we were able to go through old reef points, lucky bags. The retired curator of the museum, jim Chevers, who was tremendously helpful in the book, you know, was the curator for 50 years. You know he had a lot of the history. So that's about the best that we can determine that this, that this climb, has happened and it's been greased, it's been non-greased yeah uh, from um over the years.
Speaker 2:Again, the records are incomplete. About the best that we can determine is the first climb was the class of 62, uh, which was my dad's class, which happened in 1959. Of course I asked my dad you remember the hernan climb? No, so maybe it did or maybe it didn't happen, I don't know. You know it was pretty rough back then, you know, and he might have just blocked it out. But the fastest climb, greased, is about 20 minutes and that was a class of 75. So much like the Miami Dolphins once the last NFL team loses and their undefeated season is intact, they all pop campaign. That's kind of what the class of 75 does. Once 20 minutes passes, they're happy because they know their record still stands. And I don't think class of 98's record is the longest climb will ever be broken, so that one's probably good in the record book. Yeah, so we have the longest climb will ever be broken.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that was probably good in the record yeah, so we, we have the the longest of all time, upwards of four hours, which is just that's an absurd amount of time to be out there, and you have the fastest around 20. What? What is the like average time it normally takes for a class, uh, to get up and do herndon?
Speaker 2:I, I would say and I and again I. It's probably between an hour and a half and two and a half hours from where I'm there. And you know what's interesting is, you know, back in my day, you know back when I was a plebe, you know we didn't have computers and we didn't have cell phones, so we had no way of coordinating.
Speaker 2:So I recall us even having a brief or or even talking about it. I mean, we were uh, you know, we just lined up in T court and sprinted out and then just kind of figured it out. Well, what's happened? What happens now? And this is we.
Speaker 2:We interviewed some pleads right before the climb uh, last year's climb for the book, and you know they had all these emails flying around their class about strategies and we're going to do this and we're going to do this and we're going to do this, and, and they were very, you know, and you read the book, they were very confident that they were going to take about 30 minutes and this thing was going to be a piece of cake, etc. And then you know, of course you get out there and and again, but that's that's kind of the whole point of it. And I and you know, for the people listening that have never seen it, it really is a team building exercise, because you, you know, 21 feet doesn't sound very. When you see the herd it doesn't look very tall until you're standing on the bottom of it looking up, and then it's greasy. You can't get a good good feel, right. So it's really a fantastic team building exercise.
Speaker 2:You knowiral fowl. Back to admiral fowler um, he's a big fan of sea trials, which is something that was added, uh, fairly recently, which is kind of based on the marine corps crucible or the battle stations the navy does for boot camp. Um, hernan's still the tradition, um, but you know he, uh, he's concerned about someone getting hurt and he referenced the uh bonfire, texas A&M.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know, and he, like I said, he has a good point, um, but you know, the tradition is the tradition and uh, um, you know we'll see how it goes. So I think that, while D-Trials has not overshadowed it, I think there's a lot of traditions that are still alive and well. I don't see the Herndon climb going away anytime soon. I hope it doesn't.
Speaker 1:It's funny the point that you made about the recent plebe class, like getting together and sending emails and doing all this strategy, because I'm pretty sure the class 17 roughly did the same thing but then, like saying, the moment where it actually started, all strategy went out the window and everyone just started running and take off their shirt and throwing it at the thing and trying to get everything and I was like, oh yeah, it's tough Because you probably have like 100 to 200 people on the same page and then you have an additional thousand that are just like, forget it, we're running up there and we're going to try and make it happen.
Speaker 1:So that's definitely very interesting. But I do have one more question for you, and this is or actually two more, I apologize. The first is kind of based on some folklore and I was hoping to see if you have any insight into it. If I can recall correctly and I may be completely wrong, but I was pretty sure when we were plebs we were told that the person who actually replaces the cover on the top, the places the combination cover on the top of herndon was by tail supposed to be the first person that would put on either admiral or general in the, the graduating class, am I? On base with this?
Speaker 2:that's exactly the.
Speaker 1:That exactly is the legend that is the legend, all right, yeah, so at least I'm not making things up and I do remember kings correctly, so that's exciting. So, uh, shout out to mike landry from the 25th company back in 2017, because he was indeed our lucky warrior who got up there and made it happen.
Speaker 2:All right, Well, now to that's never happened, has it never happened?
Speaker 1:That's a fact that we can't.
Speaker 2:It's a legend but it's never happened. But we have a fun little story. So we have a few kind of vignettes that really weren't long enough to make a whole chapter, and one of the vignettes is about weren't long enough to to make a whole chapter and one of the vignettes is about a group, uh, a couple of roommates, and this is about the closest we've found. So the roommate got to the top of herndon. His roommate was the first admiral in the class. Okay, that's about the best we could we could see point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, close, by association, we'll take it Right. All right. So now, having spent all of this time studying the history of Herndon, I kind of want to put it over to you just for an opinion question what do you foresee as the future of Herndon? Do you see it staying the same, or do you think some of these safety concerns may tailor a little bit how it's conducted? Or kind of just what are your thoughts about Herndon moving forward? Do you think it's going to stay relatively the same, or do you think it'll continue to?
Speaker 2:evolve, I think it'll stay the same. Last year's climb, we were through the PAO, were granted access. We interviewed Admiral Carter. We interviewed the OIC. They actually assigned an OIC to the climb there of course, the Navy. So there's an instruction.
Speaker 2:There were safety briefs there didn't seem to be a big concern about safety because they had done their prerequisite training. So I think that it's it's going to keep. If I had to guess, I think it's going to keep on being the same that it was, but I also think that there it's a lot more regulated and a lot there's a lot more uh command interest, uh in it and a lot uh because they do realize there is some safety concerns but, again.
Speaker 2:It's, it's it's such a fun tradition and it's it's relatively harmless. Uh, there's, uh, you know, if you, if you kind of tumble off the top, you know one of the things they you know, and I did not know this. But in the safety brief they say hey, you know, get some people on the bottom. If you see, if you kind of tumble off the top, you know one of the things they you know, and I did not know this. But in the safety brief they say hey, you know, get some people on the bottom. If you see someone that kind of falls, you know, try to cushion their fall. You know, we don't want someone falling 21 feet to the ground.
Speaker 2:But so we've been at the last two climbs and there weren't, you know, we, we, there were no injuries at either one. So I think that it should probably keep on going. Yeah, but but the Academy is certainly not taking that for granted. And and they're, they're putting, you know, putting a battalion officer in charge of it and an officer in charge of it, you know, they're taking it seriously.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for that insight. Before we jump to what I call the lightning round of questions, which we ask all former midshipmen on the show, do you have anything else you'd like to address to the audience, whether it's about Herndon, about the book or anything else in general that you would like to get out there?
Speaker 2:Well, how much time do we have?
Speaker 1:As much as you want, sir.
Speaker 2:As much as you want, sarah. Well, I think, maybe a couple of things that I would throw in. And you asked some great questions.
Speaker 2:Herndon himself is a really knew he went down with the ship. So his story was that he was the captain of the SS Central America. Now he was a Navy commander, captain of the ship, but the SS Central America was a merchant ship but they were carrying gold from the gold rush and so there were Federal Reserve Banks that were expecting gold shipments and because it was a federal government, they had merchant ships. Now they tried to sail around South America but you know, in those days, in 1857, 1850s, you know, you'd lose a ship at sea. And so they said, hey, it was actually easier pre-Panama Canal to bring the ship down the West Coast, take it overland over to the East Coast and then load it on another ship.
Speaker 2:So that's what Captain Herndon did, and there was a lot of instances that were pretty well known of these ships because there was no radar, they didn't know anything about storms or whatever, and if they ran into some sort of uh weather, there were some instances where the, the, the crew got off the ship and there were pat, you know, their women and children. They were coming back from california, a lot had made their fortunes and it was essentially a passenger ship and a lot, you know, the the crew would go out in the lifeboats and leave everybody to drown. So it was uh. What. What kind of made herndon uh famous was how brave he was as the ship uh fought for two days to stay afloat. He got all the women and children off and then put his dress uniform on, went to the, went to the pilot house and, and you know, went down with the ship. And what? The reason that people knew him so well was that the that for for a couple reasons. One when all when these women got back to work, the you know, on these other ships. They got back to the, to port, they were interviewed and they all praised herndon's bravery. But the telegraph had just come out.
Speaker 2:So in 1857 herndon's story went, their version of, viral. So a lot of people had heard of Herndon. But people had also heard of Herndon prior to that, because in 1851, as a lieutenant, he was given orders from the Department of the Navy to explore the Valley of the Amazon. That was his orders and there were no Westerners that ever had done that. So he assembled an expedition and went from the west coast of South America to the east coast over the course of a year and he kept a journal of what he had seen and the people and the food and and went through and it was just essentially a diary and you know, he would boil water, note the temperature and could figure out the elevation of it. So when he got back and it was, you know, for those that don't message to Garcia, it was a classic message to Garcia, you're right, go explore the Amazon. And that was the order he got. He gets back to the, he gets back to the states and he takes this report and he hands it in and it reads like a novel and I and I, you know, and Scott and I both read it. Uh, and it was, it's just a fascinating read. And it became so popular that it that they ended up printing uh, uh, uh, 10 or 20,000 copies of this Navy report. And it became so popular they published it as a book.
Speaker 2:And there was a guy, a young man, in Kirkuk Iowa, who read this book and said oh man, I want to go do that, I want to, I want to go see, you know, south America. So Kirkuk, iowa is on the east coast of Iowa, it's on the Mississippi. So he took a ship down the Mississippi and goes to New Orleans and goes to the shipping office and says, hey, I'd like one ticket to South America. And the guy kind of laughed at him and said we don't go there. Well, I read this book Herndon or Lieutenant Herndon, and he goes OK, we don't do that. So he ended up never going. But he ended up writing a series of books about his experiences on the Mississippi River Samuel Clemens, aka Mark Twain.
Speaker 1:So that's so.
Speaker 2:And so that I think that's an interesting story.
Speaker 2:So and so that I think that's an interesting story, I have to do a plug, if I can, for the author that wrote our foreword.
Speaker 2:That's Gary Kinder, and he wrote a book called Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea is about the salvage operation of the SS Central America. The SS Central America went down with 200 tons of gold but the problem was it was in 8,000 feet of water and no one had ever done, you know this was kind of simultaneous with the Titanic but no one had ever figured out a way to bring that up and trying to find out just where it was, because there was no GPS back then. They had conflicting lat long of where the ship had gone down. So it's an absolutely fascinating book that Gary wrote. And after reading Captain Herndon's Valley of the Amazon expedition and feeling like you really know the guy, to read the account of one of the first couple of chapters of that book, gary and he spent 10 years writing it, pieced together almost minute by minute, the you know, the SS Central America fighting to stay afloat and finally going down with the ship. So you kind of felt like you knew him.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But, uh, gary, uh was kind enough to write the forward for our book and uh, so that was, um, that was really uh nice of him and I highly recommend that you read that. It's, uh, it's, it's one of the it's. It's a nonfiction book that reads like a fiction book, because it's just, it's a, it's a page turner.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and uh, just one more time. So will you tell us the name of the book and, once it does get released, where someone, if they are interested in buying it and reading it, where they can go to make that happen?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the the Herndon climb, a history of the Naval Academy's greatest tradition. It'll be on Amazon and it also it'll be published through the Naval Institute press. A tentative publication date is September 1st of this year. Fantastic, all right, well, thank you again for sharing all that insight Are you ready to move on to the lightning round of questions, or do you want a couple more minutes? I think we're good. I think we're good with everything we want to do. Yeah, we're doing everything we want to do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right. Everything we want to do Fantastic, great. Well then, let's do it with the first question, and I love that you had brought up this terminology earlier in the episode what is your favorite spot on the yard?
Speaker 2:Well, my favorite spot on the yard is Farragut Field. I am a volunteer coach with the Navy Sprint Football Team, so shout out to and to you know, for my sprint football players. Back in the day it was 150 pound football. The league started in 1934. Now the weight limit's 178 pounds and very fortunate and blessed to have the opportunity to coach them. So, no matter what's going on in my life and no matter what's happening, as soon as I walk on Farragut Field and get to be with my smart players, that's a magical time for me.
Speaker 1:And a dominant team at that. So gotta imagine that is fun. Um, all right, what? The next question is what is your favorite meal in king hall?
Speaker 2:well, you know, I I love the meals in king hall. I thought that, uh, they were fantastic, uh, I'd say probably the favorite meal, and I was a california kid so I had no idea what crab was, but we would have, uh, they would. We'd have crab, I think, a couple times a year and they'd bring out all the crabs and of course I had no idea what I was doing, but I remember the little hammer, uh, and then, uh, you know you know the thing about eating. You know, uh, you know, uh, crab blue crab is know it takes a lot of effort to get about a tablespoon full of meat, so they also have, you know, a bunch of ribs and things like that. That was certainly one of my favorite meals, but I just thought the meals themselves were, you know, the food was just, was fantastic. And you know, there was footlong hot dogs with Texas sauce, chicken tenderloins with pool ice. I mean, I could probably give you, you know, the menu if you help me.
Speaker 1:Spoken like a true supply officer.
Speaker 2:Right, Always. As you know, I will never bash the food. Having run, you know, my one of my jobs on jobs on the USS Constellation. The carrier I was on was the wardroom officer, so I was in charge of the flag mess and the chief's mess and the two wardrooms on the Constellation. So I will never, ever bash food on the Navy institution.
Speaker 1:I love it. Now, taking a turn to a little bit more of the sentimental side, I turn to a little bit more of the sentimental side, and so the first question for you on this is who or what, so it can be a person or an experience from your time as a midshipman has the biggest impact on your leadership style that you have today.
Speaker 2:And basically tracing that back to the Academy, Well, I'll tie that back to the book and again I don't want to a little bit of a. I don't want to do too many spoilers. And again I don't want to do too many spoilers. But my first semester squad leader and my second semester squad leader plead here were such fantastic examples of poor leadership that I learned here what not to do. So I will always be thankful to both of them for showing me how not to lead.
Speaker 1:Interesting and that's such an important piece of it, though right Seeing what doesn't work. So that's an interesting answer. Thank you for that. I think I too have experienced said individuals in my path as well. All right, we talked a little bit about Herndon, we talked a little bit about commissioning and that graduation day and throwing it up, but what other? Do you have another great memory from your time at your four years in Annapolis, or were those two days by far and large your best two moments at the Naval Academy?
Speaker 2:Well, I'd say those two moments and then I'll have to throw in the third one. As I mentioned, my wife is a classmate and we met second class summer on pro-trimmit. I was much more interested in her than her in me. We had the same major, we were lab partners our first semester, our junior year. We had a bit of a falling out, um and uh for about the next uh year really had no contact. And then we had a class together, uh, senior year, second semester, senior year and I asked her out on Valentine's Day of our senior year and she thankfully said yes. And once we went on that date there was no doubt in my mind that I wanted to get married to her.
Speaker 2:It took her a little bit longer to come around, but we've been married almost 32 years, have three kids and one grandson, and so that's a fantastic memory of me that you know. And I think back to my time at the Academy. You know it certainly was hard. One of my classmates, dan Ballester, also a run after, like me, in Lucky Bag, you know his quote. He has one, just one quote, and it says you know, wasn't easy, wasn't supposed to be. Really that's the case.
Speaker 2:But the memories and the friendships that you make at the Naval Academy are, you know, beyond anything that you could get at a civilian school. And it's happened to me time and time and time over the course of my career. Whether you see them in, you know, in the, the service, or you see them at an event or a reunion or whatever it is, you see a classmate and it could be you saw him five years, 10 years, 15, however old you are. But as soon as you start talking to him, it's no matter how much time has passed, it's like you saw him. Yesterday has passed, it's like you saw him yesterday. And that's the thing about the academy that is so special and that's the thing that makes it all worth it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I love that answer. All right, and to the final thing, is that a large piece of our audience, our high school students or parents of high school students who may be interested in the Naval Academy. So if there's someone like that out there listening, what advice would you give someone who may be interested in the Naval Academy? So if there's someone like that out there listening, what advice would you give someone who may be interested in the Naval Academy about what to consider when trying to decide if the Naval Academy is a good choice for them?
Speaker 2:Well, I guess I'd answer this a couple of ways. One is you know, there's a lot of interest and so the competition is absolutely fierce. Before my kids were even in high school, a friend of mine had a saying he told his kids and I stole it from him which is you know, every bee closes the door. So you can't breeze through high school, you can't not apply yourself in high school and think that the Naval Academy is going to be interested in you, so you have to work in high school. The second piece of that is and again, I was a blue and gold officer for 20 years and counseled a lot of potential men, shipmen, a lot of potential men, shipmen and, I think, a lot of high school kids. I mean, I, you know, and I put you in this category to the competition, and just the quality of the of everybody that's applying and going to the academy now is so much higher. I don't, I think they would probably just return to send her my application, you know now. So the competition is fierce, but it's not just trying to collect extra curricular activities, it's not trying just to have 10 things. And I think what everybody kind of fails to realize because they don't know, because they're kind of on the outside looking in, is that the Naval Academy is a leadership institute. It doesn't matter that you were in the chess club and the stamp club and the ski club. What were your leadership roles in those organizations? Because we're looking for leaders, you know, we're looking for young men and women who are already demonstrating the ability to be leaders or having success as leaders, because we can take that and then we can build that up and up and up so that when they get out of the fleet they're going to be successful. Really apply yourself, but don't just collect extra curricular activities. Really focus on things that can show your leadership. Team captains in a sport, obviously very, very important. And the thing about if you do end up at the Naval Academy and the retention is pretty high, I think, like I said, the competition is fierce but the ones that end up getting in, I think the retention is a lot higher than it used to be, for sure. But once you do that and you're able to graduate from the Naval Academy, you're set for life and it's not necessarily in a Navy Marine Corps setting.
Speaker 2:I'm amazed now that I'm 56 years old and I've done a lot of different things. Spent a lot of time in the corporate world after I got off active duty and it's always amazing to me to see whether it's corporate jobs or organizations or myriad things out there where the leadership is military academy people. And if you look at the mission statement, the mission statement talks about, hey, we're developing leaders and but leaders in our community and it happens all the time you know you'll say, wow, that, that you know that person's leading that church committee. Man, they're really, really squared away, they're really impressive. And then you start talking to them. Oh, yeah, I went to the Air Force Academy. Okay, there you go. So that that's the thing it's. It's not just a the Navy career. And and you know every, as you know, you have people say, hey, I'm getting out after five and they're in it for for four years. They have people that I'm staying in for 30 and they're out after five.
Speaker 2:So you don't know I, you don't know, do you know? But whatever you end up doing, uh, so many Naval Academy graduates are successful because of the leadership.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I loved what you're saying, uh, earlier about you know, demonstrating that leadership and that's always been a big thing of mine Whenever I talk to someone is we don't want to just like see you try and hit checks in the box. Right, Like trying to check every box. That's not it. It's find what you enjoy, find what your passion is and then make an impact in that thing. Right, Like, do what you do, do what you enjoy, do what you love and then demonstrate, within a community that you really believe in and really like, that you can make an impact on the organization and the people around you. And that's like the phrase that we use in the Navy right Is that sustained superior performance is like hey, find something that you love, get into it and just demonstrate that you can perform at a high level as a person and as a leader in that organization and I'll set you up for success, All right.
Speaker 2:And what I always, what I always stress to to, to young officers who go out there, and it really doesn't matter what their community is. Uh, you're going to be at some point, you know. I mean again, you know if you're a pilot or you know in aviation, it takes you a while to kind of get through your training, uh, but whenever, as soon as you get out there, you're going to be working with, uh, the really the finest young men and women that the country has to offer. You know the sailors, you know Marines, airmen that are, that are part of our military, and what I try to tell JOS, is what I try to tell them is they want to be led. Okay, they are dying to be led. They want strong leadership. Now they may grow out and they may complain and and and, but that that's just how it is and that's how you know, that's just how, how you know how the Navy is uh, being in the Navy for as long as I was, but don't ever let that think that they don't want to be led and it doesn't matter. You know what you know, uh, whether, uh, whether you know, I went out as a supply corps officer and I was the dispersing officer and I had, uh, when we deployed, a month after I got there, I had nine million dollars in cash in my safe and I had a uh, uh.
Speaker 2:You know, I had uh, five thousand people that were, you know, requiring me and my people to make sure their pay was right, and this is before direct deposit. So it was a lot of prints, of paper checks and all that, and I didn't know the first. I knew the real, real basics that I'd learned in supply core school, but what I was put there for was to lead and to take care of my people so that they could take care of the crew. And that's really the crucial thing that I think that we sometimes miss at the academy. We're saying, hey, this person's really good in this, this sport, or they're really good academically. What's their leadership like? Because all that other stuff doesn't matter. You know, I know you probably had a 4-0. I had a 2.3. I did not have a 4-0. Hey, well, it don't matter, it's, I had a 2.3. I did not have a 4.0. Hey, whoa, whoa.
Speaker 1:So DPAs don't matter.
Speaker 2:It's the leadership that matters Absolutely. And you know there's nothing more gratifying. You know, and again, I have three kids and you know I always say it's always more fun to watch your kid hit a home run than for you to hit a home run. But I'll tell you, there's nothing more gratifying, especially now, at my stage of life as a leader, where at least once a week, at a bare minimum, I will get an email or a call or a text message from somebody that's worked for me, checking in with me. Hey, could you call me? Call me, I'd like to run something by you. Hey, could you write me this letter of recommendation? Hey, could you advise me in this situation? And that's all just about.
Speaker 2:And that's not because I'm wonderful. I mean, I'm retired. Now I can't help anybody. You know I don't have any power at all, but I was able to build a relationship and they respect, you know, respect me as the leader, me as a leader, and really that's kind of my lasting legacy, I think, is that I was able to have some success as a leader and to see the people that work for me. A guy that was just, you know, work for me just was selected for flag, you know. So that's the type of it's a good feeling that makes it special.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well, jim, thank you so much for sharing your time with us and coming on to talk all about the Herndon Climb, the history of it and, as well, the book. So again, as always, again, if you are interested, we will put a link to the Amazon page once it does get released in the show notes. You can make sure to check that out. Otherwise, make sure when it does get released, that you guys go buy it and take a read. You're going to see some great stories, a lot of history about Herndon and a lot of insight. So again, thank you so much for taking your time and sharing it with us here on Academy Insider.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. I appreciate it. It was great talking to you.
Speaker 1:Absolutely All right and to the Academy Insider audience, I hope you guys have a great day, thanks. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Academy Insider Podcast. I really hope you liked it, enjoyed it and learned something during this time. If you did, please feel free to like and subscribe or leave a comment about the episode. We really appreciate to hear your feedback about everything and continue to make Academy Insider an amazing service that guides, serves and supports midshipmen, future midshipmen and their families. Thank you.