Goodbye, Gatekeepers: Self-Publishing Advice from Ashley B. Davis, author of The Space Between You and Me

Today, we speak with Ashley B. Davis about self-publishing and more. 

Ashley B. Davis writes the ordinary and extraordinary. She has poetry and short work appearing in Trembling With Fear, The Grey Rooms Podcast, Months to Years, Liquid Imagination, Jamais Vu, and Eunoia Review.

When she is not living in fictional worlds, she lives with her partner, her seven-year-olds, and two rescue cats in southern California, where she manages rental property.

Her debut YA fantasy The Space Between You and Me debuted on November 14, 2022. You can find it on most online retail sites.

To connect with Ashley...
on her website: www.ashleybdavis.com
Instagram: @shleybdavis
Twitter: @shleybdavis
Goodreads:
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/13755985.Ashley_B_Davis

Transcript

0:00

Hey, gimme affairs, head over to MFA payday.com to get your very own customizable free picks your pants off tracker that's at MFA payday.com. Welcome to MFA Payday where we talk with people about all the ways they make their writing pay. We're your host, Dreama Drudge and Barry Drudge. Today we have a special guest, Ashley B. Davis. Ashley B. Davis writes the ordinary and extraordinary. She has poetry and short work appearing in trembling with fear. The gray rooms podcast, month years liquid imagination, vu. And Yya review when she is not living in fictional worlds. She lives with her partner, her seven year olds, and two rescue cats in Southern California. All right, where she manages rental property, her debut Ye Fantasy, the Space Between You and Me just came out November 14th, 2022. To connect with Ashley, go to her website www dot Ashley B. Davis, which is a S H l E y B D A V I s.com. I was trying to remember the other day I was like, how did we meet though, Yeah. Yeah. I know we sort of began talking on Twitter and you sent me your fabulous novel to read. And I'll be honest, I was scared to let you read my novel. I'm like, she's too good. I'm outta here. Oh no. I'm loving it like your writing style. I'm so glad you like mine cuz I'm, I'm really digging yours too. Oh, well, thank you. And I don't remember the name of it. The Roses and. There we go. Oh my God. Yeah. The title. Yes. Yes. I'm so glad you like it. When I know someone's good in one style, I just know they'll be good in another, so I'm looking forward to reading everything that you write. Okay. I'll be quiet for a minute. Let you get a word in edgewise here. Oh, it's an awesome thing because writers, I mean, you're putting yourself out on the ledge, on the, on the you. So are I wrote? Yeah. And, and it's hard. So when you do that, I hear people so often say, oh, well I could write a book. It's like, oh, really? Yeah. Good luck there. You think so? You know what, the writing part, go ahead. But then revising, editing, looking at it 12,000 times, that's, that's the hard part. right? As we all know, this is the part we love to hate, and we love to, I think, yeah. No, I do love that part actually. That, that part's less scary for me than the actually like creating something from nothing part. Oh, agreed. Yeah. Yeah. I was talking with someone about my style and there were so many different writing styles, right? Mm-hmm. And so some people it comes out almost fully formed and you think they must have been telling themselves this story every night or something. Time. Mm-hmm. And for me it's such a hot mess. It's just a sketch, Real, and you're like moving things around to try to make it cohesive. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, I am, this is terrible. I would never want to die with half of a, like a really rough draft. I would be so embarrassed. Just burn it, burn it on. Don't, don't publish it. Post humorously, please. That's right. And you've got a few of those, because in a class that I was taking, we had to read one that was written by,, Franz Kafka. Oh my gosh. It was unfinished. Even his finished stuff, you're still like, oh yeah. It's like, it seems like we just lost the pages. It's not like he. Died in between there. But anyway. Right. So how did you Ashley get into writing? I honestly don't even remember, um, like what started me off with wanting to do it, but, I just I actually, when I was younger, I was really into art, um, and drawing. And at some point, probably like preteen era, scary era. I was, you know, drawing and just coming up with stories inside my head. And so then I started to kind of just write them down and the drawing part kind of fell away because I realized that, Writing is more of a challenge for me than drawing. Like I can easily like mimic something, but that's not a challenge. And I never thought I'd be someone that like, likes things that are challenging. But I do there's so many things to learn about it. So many different styles to try to master and genres and, understanding literature. So it was something that just spoke to me and so I, I kept going. Didn't ever think it would be anything you. Professional so Wow. Yeah, that's a surprise. I'm gonna do a non-secure and we are known for those I just noticed your teacher. Oh, I did too. Yeah. Have you read Taylor Jenkins Res? Daisy Jones in the sixth. Sixth. I haven't yet, but I've have been seeing that all over, online. Oh, I forgot to read it. It's okay. If you like Fleetwood Mac, it has a very much of Fleetwood Mac vibe. Yeah. Yes. I love Fleetwood Mac. And, um, I heard that they're about to make it into a movie. I think it's that one of hers that they're about to make it into a movie that would make sense. I always have to read the book first. Always Exactly. Right. Right. And they're never, you know, the movie, they're never as good. We know that. Right, right, right. You have to have that whole thing in the background in the back of Oh, while you watch it. so if you enjoyed drawing and such, when you were younger, did you ever consider like doing comics? Like doing the, the novels? Yeah. Graphic novels, you know, yeah, actually, um, I, I, I've thought about that and it's just my style of drawing is like more like I, I don't get a lot of original ideas on my own. I like to copy the technique. And when I do get an original idea on my own, I can never make it match. I mean, often with writing too, you get ideas and you're trying to execute it on paper the way that it is in your head, and it's next to impossible. But you try your best. And with drawing, that's not really my forte. I'm. Super creative in that regard. Um, and also I was studying a lot of graphic novels for a long time, and I read a lot of them before, but I just don't think I would be able to draw something that repeatedly, the same face. I don't think I could ever draw the same person's face like multiple times, you know? Totally understand that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We kick around the ideas sometimes, like I'll be like, oh, I have an idea, which he hears 30 times a week. Right? Right. occasionally he'll be like, oh, I have write down Dreamer, and then read all three later he's gotten a little like, uh, okay. I thought it might be, talking about this Maybe be a nice moment for you to read from the space between you and me. I can totally do that. I have a little scene that hopefully doesn't give too much away, but also, okay. I read as much as you want. It's, oh no, I timed it. I was like, they said five minutes. It's gonna be five minutes. Oh, we're so ish people. But thank you. there's no like time to stopwatch or anything going on here, so, well, I don't wanna lose anybody's interest, just drone it on, but, uh, it is, I'll try to read slow cuz uh, that's often my problem is reading fast. I made an unplanned stop at the street Seer Shop. It's not like I was actually starting to believe in this stuff. Maybe I just hoped to catch a break. This didn't mean I was giving into the whispers from the elusive other side. My mother Communed with Gdy, the Street Seer was a friend of my mom's and older than my parents, maybe as old as my grandparents. She wasn't a typical witch in a cottage, but I was only 60% sure she didn't eat children. She was covered in tattoos, her white hair and dreads, and she filled out an a shirt with more assertion than I did. A tinkling chime sounded as I entered. There were trinkets everywhere. Crystals, taro cards, room stones, while books on grief, reincarnation and latent psychic powers populated the shelves. Apollo said Girdy leaning on the counter where she took people's cash. In exchange for parlor tricks, she pushed off the counter with those impressive biceps all business. The streets have been whispering your name at night, she said, coming around the counter to flip the open sign and crack the deadbolt into place. Of course, she would say something like this. It was stock cism. I'm looking for someone. I looked around the shop as though Junior might pop out, waving a copy of Eat Prey. Love at me. Come with me. She said her combat boots cross the ancient carpet that was almost black with toward the back. Keep an eye on the place dot. She called, I presume, to the homeless person, curled fetal between the shelves. A regular gritty explained. She cranked the doorknob of a swollen wooden door and shouldered her way. A blast of wreaking air Hit me in the face. We were in the alley behind G'S gifts. See what she did there? The strip of gray daylight above us was like a far away dream. Girdy pointed over to the black mark on the pothole asphalt. It looked like the site of a small contained explosion. I was about to ask her whether anyone had spontaneously combusted in the spot, but she swung herself into the dumpster. Sorry, just gotta find something that's not mine. In here. She said. After some shuffling, aha, she popped up, pull, pulling herself over the side of the bin with a bag and toe. She walked over to me, jutting the hand that wasn't holding the bag in my direction. When I saw she had a knife, I jumped back. Calm down, sunshine. Wasn't she just clever? I thought a little pleased with the nickname. Despite myself, she jerked her head of the bag. You gotta rip it open. I took the knife from her, flipped it, and stabbed the blade in with groomed satisfaction, I pulled down like I was gutting. A bloated white fish. Trash spilled out. Gerdy took her knife back, flipping it closed with one hand and slipping it into her pocket. Her arms tensed, tattoo shivering as she shook the remainder of the bag's. Contents onto the ground around my feet. Fast food wrappers 40 ounce bottles. Packaging for raw hamburger traveled lemon wedges. A child's transformer's notebook, probably a dealer's ledger wristbands from the strip, like the people who'd cut them off, had meandered over here to eat a chicken. Shwarma, Sammy. Afterward, she ripped the bag open from the gash I'd made and let the last few things explode at my feet, pulling a parliament from her baggy jeans. She lit it as she walked around me, never looking away from the garbage. I wanted to light one too, but then I would seem nervous. Interesting. Gdy said, I fought not to roll my eyes. Instead just stood staring at the trash juices pulling around my pumas. I'm getting two things here, like two fate are intertwined. I told my heart to calm the fuck down. She looked up at me, her cigarette out to her side. Does that make sense? Sure. She said something under her breath, still focused on the trash. What the one who lies to himself will lose what he loves most. She wasn't looking at me, but threw me as she spoke. I turned around wondering if there was more trash back there, whispering the secrets of the universe. Her eyes flashed back from yonder, middle distance than flicked down to the styrofoam, plastic and paper. Modern art installment. Hold on, there's something else here. She got down on her knees and started moving the trash around with her hands, like a regular psychic moves cards over the table. She picked up a can. It's aluminum lid, jagged, and hanging on by a thread. It reflected the sick white sunlight into my eyes. I closed them. When I opened them again, she was looking up at me. The can still in her hand, death and darkness, or lost in darkness. He finds death. I didn't wanna hear anything about death or darkness while I was looking for my friend. I wanted to kick the can out of her hand. I kind of feel like I should tell you, I don't believe in any of this stuff. She stood up, chucking the can into the dumpster as though it hadn't just delivered that foreboding tidbit like it was just trash, which it was. But if this was her trade, shouldn't she be a little more reverent? That's okay. She said ducking again to pick up more of the trash. I just watched her not sure if she was done with her reading my not to convince anyone or explain how I see the things I do. I just see them. That would be a tough job to be a seer and to have to convince people it was all true. Exactly. She said, not catching my sarcasm. You're disappointed. I shrugged. I was being shitty. She was probably used to people acting like skeptical assholes. Sometimes a token makes people feel like they got more out of it. My heart hammered like I just chugged a quad shot, whatever. She flicked her fingers like she was throwing something and then widened her eyes toward my chest. I looked down a playing card stuck to my shirt, like wind held it there. Ace of spades. Edges weren't soft and bent with flex of blood. A souvenir for my prediction feels passe to me, but if it means more business, I'll be sure to tell my friends. I said, holding up the card, was the blood really necessary? Blood? She looked startled. She came around the counter to look at the card. Must have gotten some pain on it. She looked her finger and scrubbed it against the corner of the card as I held the other end. It was just as awkward as it sounds, but the blood didn't come off. Wow. thank you. And I know what I'm, I'm bringing the Kindle this weekend. Yes. Forget the birthday celebration. Forget the holidays. I'm gonna be curled up in the hotel room with my kid, though. We read that. I've gotta download it, but I haven't got chance to read it. Wow. Thank you. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is it's such active scene setting. I mean, it's, thank you. It's, it's so important. I mean, in my mind to, to have the, the, all the plates spinning and you've, you've achieved that. and the second thing, I'm sorry, it's gonna be an appreciation moment for Ashley but it's like, um, the trash. Feels like, um, tea leaf reading. Totally. Yeah. But it's, it's so, so clever and so bravo or Bravo. Thank you. One of my favorite scenes, obviously. No. Oh, the, the sensory details are just, oh, beautiful. Chef's kiss, right. The, uh, shriveled lemon wedges, right? Like, you see all these things in track. So you had to like emulate that. Well if that doesn't give people the appetite, I don't know what Well, because that was like a really, and you're right, you didn't put spoilers, but there was just enough. It's like, gimme, gimme, gimme good, gimme more. And, and both of you, I've never attempted in my writing first person, except for like personal essays. Mm-hmm. So that's, that is something, I mean, that I always marvel at the ability to keep that going along and feeling natural. Mm-hmm. not getting, still not saying I Too much Yeah. That's a problem when you're wedding first person. That's, wow, that's a balance. Thank you. Have you ever counted how many times you've used? I, I haven't tried that. I've been afraid to, but, well, it's funny cuz um, my first novel that I like embarked on it was first person and apparently half of the book was just I am statements and my best friend who is also my critique partner, healthly, pointed out how many made up the book of I Am, I Am. And you know, she broke me of that. Maybe you've already thought about this or if you have it, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but, are there like comp titles, other books, if someone likes such and such a book, they would like your book. You know? Yes. Well, there's the title that inspired me to write this book. It's Carry On by Rainbow Ra. It's more of a, um, magical school like Harry Potter. Um, but the dynamic between the two main characters is really what inspired the dynamic between the characters. In my book, the, the chapter I read from was from Apollo's perspective, and him and his best friend are kind of on the outs at the start of this book, uh, because of some drama that happened in the past. And so it's kind of, you know, enemies to friends again. And, uh, that's what that book is like, carry on. So it's really the dynamic that inspired it. Her magic system is great though. It's definitely worth the read. It, it interacts with the whole franchise of Harry Potter in such a unique and cool way. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. On that note about reading, obviously you're an active reader as well as writers, so, I mean, I read that, I write guys Understood. We have just given away boxes of books. Again, again, gosh, to the library again. Right. But, you know, it's sort of like, you know, gifting them out. But what do you have in your bookshelves that you're currently reading? So, um, I am reading, uh, well, I just finished book Levers by Emily Henry. Um, do you re, do you read romcoms uh, Dreama. Yes, I do. Yeah. Yeah. But she's, she's like a sudden prolific, um, author. And, uh, I just finished that and that kind of inspired the next thing I'm working on, which is like a romcom with a twist. And she challenges a lot of the major tropes, um, in that. Uh, so it's, it's pretty fun. And then other than that, like some nonfiction, some horror, um, the nonfiction I'm reading right now is, uh, meander Spiral, explode by Jane Allison. And it's, it's pretty cool actually. It talks about like the space between words. Um, and I guess it kind of looks at linguistics and like an alternative narrative arc versus the typical, you know, Plato's Triangle or whatever. So it's, it's unique. It's cool. Yeah. And did I see Big Magic? Did I? Big Magic, oh my gosh, this is my new Bible Right? Show. Phenomenal. I listened to it on audio, read by the author and, uh, It just like made me change the way that I, I think about writing. I think everybody goes into it like the tor with the tortured artist, you know, cuz it's hard, it's super hard to write and you go, come at it from that angle and it gets harder and your muse doesn't wanna come out. And as soon as you start like opening the door and like. Just, you know, living in wonder of this thing that we can do, then it, it gets a lot easier. I haven't gotten there yet, but I hear you. Yeah. So we interviewed someone a few episodes back who, um, had worked with her. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, he's like, and he was like, it was way before she ever, I don't care. Yeah. So one of the things I really admire about you and your writing is that you are not afraid to hop all over the place genre and your adventurous and your adventurous in your reading and in your writing. I think that's amazing. So how do those work together for you? Talk about that process a little. So, you know, I was kind of scared as I started thinking about writing as like, You know, like a profession and putting stuff out there into the world, especially when you get to novels versus like submitting short stories, um, or poetry. But I was a little afraid because everybody talks about branding and you have to stick with one, you know, look and color scheme and mood and nobody's, you know, like Emily Henry's got all her super colorful, vibrant, and it looks fun and romcom. But like, if you are writing a ye fantasy and then if I wanna go to, you know, an adult romcom or you know, just a romance like the Rosen Hills is, then you, um, You have to kind of keep that in mind. And I, I hate thinking about that side of it. I don't wanna think about how it's gonna be marketed. I just, I like all of those things and I want to pursue all of those things, so I'm gonna worry about that other part of it later and just pursue all of those different genres, you know, well, we support and applaud that because I guess my closest thing to it is, the, the world of music where, even in Fleetwood Mac, 1968, Fleetwood Mac Yeah. In 1977, Fleetwood Mac are different, different beasts. Same thing with the Beatles, Bob Dylan. They, they sort of like, I've already done that. Mm-hmm. you know, but I wanna try something new. Yeah. I understand that the industry oftentimes wants to pigeonhole you so that they can keep the marketing machine going Totally. And keeping the money going. But this becomes the balance of art and commerce, I guess would be the, the way I look at it, it's like, Um, commerce be damned, you know, Well, and that's a good point. I, I was trying to think of like, how to talk about this, but like, the great thing about self-publishing and as we're moving into this age of like, people being able to do that without gatekeepers, holding them back and, and, you know, some elusive agent or publishing house or, you know, bookstore owner deciding, okay, yeah, you fit over here in my bookstore, so mm-hmm. this is, this is what you're gonna be, you're gonna be this. Now you can do anything you want because it's, you know, you, I guess you can change your brand and just go this other direction and you can fit into that little category on Amazon or wherever it is that you're gonna be. And, um, you know, it, you don't have to be so confined by the physical bookstores that we walk into and that have all the. Locations, you know, that you see and experience physically like you have now the internet Oh yes, exactly. So wide As we start talking about self-publishing, do you prefer the term self-publishing or indie publishing? Um, either is fine. Indie feels so cool. I don't know if I'm that cool, so I Oh, you're self publish Look at your T-shirt. You're totally Look at my T-shirt. Yeah. Well, and, and to me it's like the, the, the common denominator doesn't have to, in my mind, be genre. Mm-hmm. it's your, your writing voice. Because your voice, I believe probably just like dream is it comes through no matter what the subject matter or the setting or the style of mm-hmm. you know, I think, I think your, your uniqueness. We'll pop out regardless of whether it's sci-fi or Romcom. Thank you. And there's an author, I, she's my absolute favorite author, Maggie, Steve Fodder. She started in YA novels and she talks about how when she sets out to write a book, she wants somebody to pick it up and feel that it is a Maggie Steve Fodder book because she's just got this specific style. She's always writing trippy things and you know, she can go across any genre. She just went into, you know, adult fiction and, I think you're right. And I can tell reading Victorine like, and that one page of Dream's book that she put on her blog, um, That there? Yeah, there's a definite feel. And if I'm in the mood for that, feel like, I don't care what John Red's in, I'm gonna pick it up. You wanna write a space opera Dreama? I'm gonna read it I'm writing it down. Space Opera 2024. Do it. Oh my God. After the Virginia Wolf Uh, so for this next part, feel free to get as much in the weeds as, as technical as you want to or not. That's totally up to you. Because one of the things we encourage our MFA friends to do is to consider getting outside of the box, and, to consider trying something new. And I think self-publishing, some people are afraid of it, but actually, you know, it can be so very freeing. That's actually, that's one of the things, uh, someone was talking to me before my first novel came out mm-hmm. and they were asking about,, the publishing journey and I said, you know what, I would love to have an agent. And I did get an agent. Um, I said, but. For me, I know with self-publishing, you know, no one can stop me Eventually this book is coming out one way or the other. And that was very freeing for me. Mm-hmm. So first of all, was it a conscious decision, your journey, and then you could tell us, I mean, I'm serious, I'm being very selfish here. I would love to know anything and everything you can help me with on the self publishing journey as I'm getting ready to do that myself. So I'm willing to share it all. I learned from so many other people, but, it was not a conscious decision, actually. It was, Never even a thought in my mind to try it. I'm very old fashioned, I was like, I, I have to get my agent and I have to do this, and I have to do that. And, my husband even asked me, why don't you just self-publish it? Why are you waiting for, why are you submitting all these things? And you know, just, just self-publish it. I'm like, are you crazy? There is so much involved in it. You have to be an entrepreneur. I'm, I don't have that spirit about me. I can't do that. And I got caught up thinking about all the decisions that you would have to make on a day to day basis and all the drive that you have to have. And it's already hard enough just to write the dang thing. So But a friend of mine read this book and, she was gonna put together like a, a book box for, you know, a queer book box and the book is lgbtq and she was like, would you wanna write something for it? And I was just flabbergasted by that and immediately totally nervous. And, you know, my stomach just dropped to the floor. I'm like, uh, I don't know. But the more I thought about it, I was like, I could put this out there. Like people might need this. Like, it, it deals with some things that deals with addiction, um, which I have a lot of personal issues in my family and in my own life with that. And it deals with sexuality and just questions of sexuality. And I thought that it would be good. I was like, yeah, I could just self-publish it that way. I don't have to wait for anybody to give me the, the green light you know, and I can just get out there. And so I started looking into it right away, like what I would need to do. Of course, there were a thousand things I did in the wrong order guys. started thinking about it more and more, I, um, I was like, yeah, I could just self-publish it that way. I don't have to wait for anybody to give me the, the green light you know, and I can just get out there. And so I started looking into it right away, like what I would need to do. Of course, there were a thousand things I did in the wrong order guys. Um, and I'll be happy to talk about those. I'm taking notes. You dream Yes. Um, all the things that you don't want to do, um, in the, in this order, but, uh, yeah. So I knew that I had to get it whipped into shape, so I sat down and started. Really looking at it. I knew that I wanted to go with an editor, even though I feel like I have a pretty good editorial eye. I just wanted an outside, look at it like developmentally wise. And there were some things that this editor, this my editor was Arianne des Sombre. I found her on read z.com, which is a great resource. Um, she kind of looked at it and let me know what was working and what didn't work in the overall scheme of things. And so then I kind of fixed it up with that. That gave me more confidence to be like, okay, yeah, this is happening. I'm gonna do this. And I already paid all that money to edit it. So So I, uh, and I'll tell you what guys, whenever I got the cover, that was when I was like, oh my God, this is real. That was so emotional for me to have somebody design that cover and, and put an interpretation of my characters on the front, which I usually hate on books ironically. But I loved it. And, uh, it made it more real. So I feel like I'm drawing on and on, but I, uh, no, I, Started, working on my website in the background. Cause you have to be like visible online. So I started working on my website in the background, um, to get visibility and I knew that I didn't have, you know, enough of a team, a street team, basically to like advertise for me. So that was gonna have to kind of be all with me and, and generous friends like treatment and Barry having me on their podcast even though I don't have an mfa, guys Oh, that's, we, we, we don't force that down anybody's throat at all. Yeah, it's, um, so it's been a learning experience and um, I've learned a lot and, uh, it's enjoyable and terrifying. You know, you feel really vulnerable as, you know, at the end of it. So Right. Well, now you said something about things that you did in the wrong order. Can you remember any of those in particular to share? Well, one of them was, I feel like I kind of got my cover a little bit too soon, um, and then didn't have my ducks in a row. There's a lot in the background with regards to formatting and, and you can go through a formatter, which I probably should have done and I would be a little bit more sane at this point, but I formatted it myself. And you have to have all that done before you do the next step of the jacket and the cover. And, um, I, I did that out of order. There's lists out there, like the indie, authors that I follow on YouTube. they. Lists, self-publishing checklists and, you know, I was going down buying an is b n and submitting to the Library of Congress, like all these nitty gritty things that make up that cool little title page in the beginning. you know, you just, you're learning the art of book making. It's, it feels very archaic, but, um, you know, it's, it's fun. It's something new. So, yeah. I'm sorry. I'm going. Oh, really? I have so many questions. I'm like, okay. I don't know many things. I know. I'm like, I don't even know where to, where to start with that. Well, someone over here has done my formatting for me. Yay. Not your God. What's been the most challenging thing up until now? Like with self-publishing? Is it like mindset or is it like trying to give the word out or, well, there there's definitely all the technicalities of it, like learning the ropes with formatting what free resources to use. Um, and just navigating that sea, you know, cuz there's so many things that you can get lost in. Cuz the internet, as we said, is a very wide place. Um, and you wanna find the right resources, but there is that whole technical side of it and, uh, figuring that out on your own. But really, like, for me, mindset, it has been the hardest thing because, um, you know, you really have to. Set yourself up to, be vulnerable, which I am not good with., I'm a very emotionally unavailable person, So it's hard to, um, have this thing that I created for my soul out there in the world. And like waiting, you know, to hear what people think of it. That part's really hard. And also as you're getting out there, like convincing yourself, somebody wants this, even if there's one person out there that should be good enough, somebody's gonna wanna read this, so you should get it out there. And just convincing yourself that you're not a fraud for doing that. So that's, that's hard. But one thing, um, I know one of your questions that you like to ask people on here is like, what advice do you give to other MFAs as they're coming outta the program? For me, even with this whole process of self-publishing, I never would've been able to do it without submitting my work. So that's great that you guys have this submission tracker that you created and stuff, because it is an invaluable experience, I think, for anybody that wants to, um, have the hope of, of publishing or even just getting confidence in your writing, even if you don't care about it, getting out there and people reading it. If you just wanna know, am I any good? Start submitting it and you're gonna get a lot of rejections, but it helps you,, it just molds you and helps you figure out what works and what doesn't. And it kind of becomes like a game. You get a decline and you like sit there and obsess over it, you know, for a few weeks and shave away the things that you don't think were working. Send it out again. Send it out again. You know, and it, without having done that, I don't have a ton of stuff published. I have just, you know, a few things, but that was an invaluable experience, I think, to gaining the mindset. The confident, confident mindset to be able to put your stuff out there in a big way like this, you know? Yeah, absolutely. First of all, you do not come across as emotionally unavailable. Oh, dear. No, we feel that way, but we don't feel that way at all. We're, we're like going, what? Who then It's working. We don't agree but if that's over, you know, if that's stepping over a line, we a, I apologize. No, no. It, yeah. And I'm, I'm right now working with a mentor on, on my novel. I, I gave him my first draft of it, and his first question was as he looked at, he loved it, which was good. That's, but he goes, exciting. You need, you need a character. To kind of bounce off back and forth. Can you make, create a, a little more tension that way? So I've, it's sort of like, Almost doubling the size of it by adding this whole new being into your Right. Right, right, right, right. So, but, but it's been a great learning experience. actually I wrote a novel when I was in college. I would never show anybody. Everybody has one of those it's a fantasy novel. So yeah, it's, uh, the, the title. That's a good thing to learn though. Like the, one of the things I think you learn as you're like writing more and more just on your own and as you're letting other people read it, is like, well, one of my problems, Barry, was that same thing like, My critique partner was like, why are all your characters alone? Why don't they have a best friend? Why don't they know anybody? Why don't you, why do you have a best friend and all this huge family and, and your characters are just so lonely, And I'm like, you know, I dunno ize your book to add in. I happen to notice that you say in your bio that you manage rental property. Oh yeah. And this is interesting because we know several writers who do this. Really? Yeah. Yeah. That is so bizarre. Well, and the one person says that doing it allows her like flexibility to write. So maybe there's this whole sub, culture of writers who manage property. You know, I wish it did that. My, my schedule for work is pretty rigid. Um, so it's hard to find. A good time, cuz I think my most creative time is like in the mornings. So, and I'm a painfully slow writer you guys, so really? Um, I'm not gonna get up at 5:00 AM to write. Maybe I need to start doing that, but I do most of my writing on like Monday in the morning after the kids have gone to school or Sunday morning I get up really early and do a little bit of writing. So work is hard for that. What I find that helps, um, not so much like getting ideas from my day job, but, um, is, uh, that it's just a whole different, um, side of your brain that you use for that, you know? Well, I guess it's not because I'm trying to, you know, connect with people and understand people's needs and, um, you know, take care of our residents and get new people to rent. But also in writing, you're trying to make those connections with people and um, yeah. Appeal to them, you know, emotionally. It says like, your job's pretty demanding, right? That's, yeah, and it's more like, I guess what I was trying to say is like the different side of your brain you use, it's more like sorting out problems and, um, paperwork and, and it's, I don't, I'm not very creative at work and so, but I like that. I like that like kind of tedious, um, tasks that I'm doing and I'm listening to music or whatever as I do that. And then on the other side of it, when I come home, I can, you know, be wild and have this like inner fantasy world just come outta my brain, Well, that's a, a long tradition. You know, you got your Mary Olivers and people who, oh, well, Elizabeth Gilbert, who's like, I'm not gonna require my writing to support me. And I'm like, no. That was one of the great ideas from that book that kind of blew my mind. I was like, yeah, why, why would we do that? Um, it feels like it would put, you know, it would make it such a Marx change and kind of put a damper on your creativity, you know, that free spirit. And on the one hand, I agree. On the other hand, I'm like, yeah, but gimme that money, but I need to be paid. Yeah, exactly. We're figuring all out. That's why we have this podcast, like, pick everybody's brains,? We're like, what about, you know, how see what works for you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, it's not just a, a complete, uh, We have a purpose of our own. A little evil purpose. No, I get it. And we love the idea, you know, just talking to other people. I mean, otherwise we'd probably be watching another episode of The Office. Right, right. Talking to a writer the, what is it called? The super fan episodes. Oh my gosh. I haven't seen those. Yeah, they, they add another, like, stuff that's been cut out. Ooh, I'm gonna have to watch those cuz I, I do love that show. Well, Ashley, we just appreciate you coming onto the show. It's added another little wrinkle in our brains so, that's just awesome. Uh, Ashley is www.ashleybdavis.com. Yep. Check it out. Get her book. What's the name of it again? The space Between You and Me. That's right. And where's it available, by the way? Um, you can go to books to read, um, books, the number two read.com/the space between you and me, and it gives you the links for any of the, um, available venue. So you can go on Barnes Noble, Amazon Cobo, Google Books, any of. Yay. Well, we thank you. And until next time, keep writing. Writing all of the things.