Oh man. One thing I'm losing my mind about at the moment is how did it go from like being like 22 degrees this morning to like seven degrees this afternoon? I think there's only one place in the world that that could happen right here. yeah, it's nuts. Just doesn't realize, like we have such variable weather conditions, man. I, I wore. I wore like shorts, a tea and thongs down to narrow today for work. Why it was a fucking bad decision. Mistakes were made going to narrower. Yeah. I just wanted to fit in I'm from now. I was born there. Oh yeah. Barry shall have, oh, Barry now north now. Okay. Anyway, I don't wanna tell too much about my, you know, Muslim background, but I do. And I'm now all the way. All right. So this is for Clemen Otis and I wanna shout out to INO soul crush, organic. And kingpin skate supply. Get on their websites, use affiliate code TT. You'll get some discounts. You'll support the show. Everybody's happy. And those of you that have been doing that already, I just wanna thank you for your support. Cheer, terrible, happy talks, terrible happy talks. 3, 2, 1. Today's guest is the president of suicide prevention initiative. Talked to me, bro. He's on a mission to break the stigma surrounding suicide. And he's our past guest on the show last time. Oh, excuse me. Last time he was on, we talked all things. Prevention, support, kind. Date's gone wrong and much, much more. Check it out. It's episode number 100. Five this week, he's with me in person to check in shared journey, experiences, challenges, and hopes for the future. Mr. Jack Brown. Welcome Sharon. Thanks for having me again, brother. Do thank you for being on you're a good talker. Thanks for me. I don't have much else going for me. No, I think you do. I feel like we just did a podcast. Before the podcast. Yeah, we should have had it roll. Then the whole time you were talking, I was like, God, damnit, I should be recording this guy. mate. I want to have you back on because I just want let's. I want to go over the strategies for supporting people who are struggling. Let's let's get straight into it. I think we need to constantly remind people. Okay. How do we have difficult conversations with people that we know who are having a difficult. It's a fantastic question channel, supposed to, to hash on what we chatted about last time. It's really important that if you think it's gonna be uncomfortable for you. I suppose you've gotta think of how it's gonna feel for that person to be going through that struggle. And even though that little bit of time to be able to ask that question of, you know, and are you okay, is fantastic to start with, but when asking questions, if you do feel that one of your friends is struggling, it's really important to try and ask a question. That's not so open closed, especially for guys. It's very easy to be like, Hey, are you okay? And you know, what would you answer? Shannon? I'm. That's you know, conversation. So that's, that's an example of a closed question. Closed question. Yeah, exactly. Right. So we wanna, yeah. We wanna ask open questions. Sorry. We wanna ask open questions. So if you were to chat to someone a really good way, you know, I'll try and condense it, but a really good way that are we using, we teach it. Talk to me, bro. Is to potentially notice things or sorry to mention things that you've noticed about that person that you're worried about to be able to bring up that, you know, you do care and you've seen they're withdrawn. Haven't been turned up to footy train. They've been drinking more. They've been taking a ton of drugs. You care for them and you just need to ask, you know, if you are worried about them and you do think they're suicidal and ask that question, and there's three ways that we teach to ask that. And we try not use language around the word commit. Like I talked about last time. We want to use language that's straight to the point and those questions, the first one is are you think killing yourself? You know, are you suicidal? Is another you. Really good one. And I suppose the last one would be, yeah. Did I cover, are you thinking of killing? Yeah, I think you did. Yeah. Or, yeah. Are you thinking of suicide? Are you think, and the reason we wanna ask and talk about suicide and not use say the language, like, are you thinking of harming yourself is because self-harm and suicide are two completely different things. Right. And we wanna make sure that we grasp exactly what's going on so that we can, you know, do our best to help. And, you know, we're not psychologists counselors or anything like that, but once we have that information, we can at least support that person to be able to, to be with them and then refer them onto, or, you know, call lifeline, which is incredible. And we're partnered. and you know, all these other organizations that are out there to help cuz there, there is help, but you know, it's just that tough part of wanting to, to make that phone call when you've got those dark clouds over. Yeah. I could imagine. Do you think someone who is in a dark place would answer those questions? Honestly, I. I suppose. Yes and no. Like I've worked with people that don't answer, honestly, and I have been worried about. But all you can do is ask those questions. You can't force someone to answer something truthfully, that's where it's kind of up to them to do. Right. But what I would do, let's say you ask a question and you say, Hey, are you thinking of killing yourself? And they go, nah, but something in your belly and your gut instinct is playing up. And that is a thing your gut instinct is definitely I can't remember the study on it, but there's something to indicate. It's actually quite relevant if you do ever. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. That if you are worried about that person, what I've done in the past is just send out a message to them, or even call them a bit later after you've caught up with them and just say, look I know you didn't wanna chat earlier. I know you said this, but I just want you to know that no matter what happens, I'm here for you and when you're ready to talk. I'm a phone call away. Yeah. And like identifying those signs and symptoms, like you mentioned, like, you know, things like not turning up to footy, training, drinking more, what else is there that would give, give it away? So there there's quite a few, like, so anger. Okay. Like prone to anger. Yeah. Prone to anger, like really short, like out like short tempers, a big one, another one, which can, is a bit That can go unnoticed potentially is if one of your friends, which is usually quite down and struggling kind of rocks up and is a complete like state of euphoria or is really happy, like a manic sort of behavior. Well, not in, in the sense that they rock up. Right. And they're really happy. That's a lot like, so. In our work a lot of the time, if that's the case where they've had a complete shift, a lot of the time you can feel like, oh wow. That, you know, this could be really positive, but could also be the fact that they've made up their mind. Yeah. And they're finally at peace. Oh, damn. So. Yeah. And that's, that's one thing. That's one, you know, one sign that's been noted to look out for, but at the end of the day, I suppose. Point that I want to get across is that we're all human. Nobody's perfect. You know, we can't sit around and monitor our friends. 24 7. Part of the work we do at talk to me, bro, is how to help a friend that might be struggling, but then how to help ourselves, you know, how, how can we get help and how can we put our hands up? Cuz that's one thing that we've seen you know, specifically with males is that they struggle to sometimes put their hand up and go, you know what? I need a hand for that fear of judgment and that fear of you. not having it together. Yeah. So. Looking after ourselves. So we don't delve to those, those deep levels of, of anguish and sadness. Yeah, definitely. So we've got, what's called a mental toolbox and a lot of other organizations have some great terminology for it, but essentially it's when you starting to feel like shit. It's things that we know make ourselves happy that we can go to cuz when things are shit and I'm sure anybody listening, when they do feel like that, it's sometimes hard to think of things to do, get the motivation, but if you can have them nearby. So for me personally, it's going for walks around the Harbor cuz it's got a lot of positive and happy connotations for me when I was younger, struggling and overcoming them. Right. Yeah. So when I am struggling, that's one of my go-tos is walking around the Harbor because it makes me feel better. Now, if I do that a few times and try some other things in my toolbox, like the gym you know, chatting with mates and stuff like that. If that's not working, that's when I need to escalate it. And that's when I need to, to book myself in to get another mental health plan, see a psychologist and things like that. Counsel prevention strategies, for sure. Yeah, exactly. Right. The prevention's always better than the cure and being able to, to, you know, I'm very fortunate that I've had those experience and I do. Have some great support networks around me, but a lot of people don't and I suppose that's who we're trying to get through in talk to me, bro. The people that don't necessarily know how to help reach out for help. They're the ones that we want to chat to, you know, to be able to support those that do reach out for help, but to be also trying to encourage others that it's okay and you're not gonna be, you know, charged all, you know, what is that? The people that matter won't judge. Ooh. Yeah. That's what that's, that's the, that's the scariest thing. I didn't think about that. Yeah. That's what I'm most concerned about is fear of being judged by the people that matter. I, I think my personal opinion on that is that I know within my circle, is it anybody within my immediate, like that matters in my life would only support me. Yeah. Maybe that's the, maybe I'm thinking in the wrong terms, maybe I'm thinking more. People that I want validation off. And I mean, it's hard for me to say that, but I do see, I still seek that. I don't want to, but I want to be, I wanna be validated by people just like in high school. I wanna be in the cool crowd. Oh, for, yeah, for sure. But you know, why can't you have validation as well as great mistakes. True. It's a good point. I mean, I suppose you can, it takes away the fact that you obviously to be validated, you need to be what near perfect. I suppose. And I think being part of, you know, part of being successful is failing fucking up, booking yourself into psychologist, tumbling over struggling, like, yeah. Do you seek validation though? Because you are quite, you know, you've put yourself in a position where you are public you're in a, you know, you're in a public space. You're putting yourself out there in a public sphere. Pretty massively. Good question. I suppose I've always done this, like talk to me, bro. Is. I've always done this for the sole purpose of my motivation has never been to get clear out. And my motivation is never to be on like a public stage or anything like that. I just know the feeling of a being suicidal and B losing someone, you know, family member to suicide. And I don't want other people to feel the way I did. And that's really been strong for me. And even now that, you know, Luke who's runs the, to rock the Newcastle top line, even though, you know, we are doing some incredible things with all of our talk bro community. I think it's so important to not lose sight of why things started and where we're at and you know, the whole mission behind this is to help people that are struggling people, not just men, people, people. So the actual name, talk to me, bro. Kind of conjures images of a men's group. Yep. Have you started to be more inclusive? Yeah, for sure. So we've started a, like a female kind of sector that's been in. Fantastic. We've had girls run female oh, sorry. Okay, listen, we had a taller break. Yeah, I gave Jack one of my special coffees and maybe had an adverse effect on you. sorry, bro. I was absolutely smoking. How embarrassing, but we're back about with thes? No, we listen. We were talking about fear of judgment validation. I mean, I think in this world of social media, everything, like, I mean, everyone's looking for some validation, but would you agree with me if you think it's gone full circle or is it getting worse? Like people don't care about followers and shit anymore? Yes. I know though. I still think that that's the older and the more experienced they are. So I think the, we are lucky in that sense, but I think a lot of young people still seek a lot of validation from it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I think that's, what's super toxic about it really. Yeah. A hundred percent. I think. I, I know that there's a lot of people that we work with that struggle with their mental health because of social media, social media media. Yeah. It's. Fucking crazy, which just, yeah. When you and me talked about this last time, Shannon, it's just so easy to roll outta bed and you see your mate, who's having a pizza in fucking Italy and you're about to go, you know, work all day and, and stuff, even though there's levels to it, but it's just it and it just drains you. So, you know, being on your phone so much can give you headache. Like there's so many negative things to it. Like they're fantastic. But you know, I sound like an old fuck, but really they're yeah. They can be quite bad. Yeah. I mean, is this something that comes up regularly in the conversations that you guys have? Yeah. Yeah. So like one of the questionnaires, I suppose, if you're struggling is that you need to go through and like, do like what we call, like a, if you're gonna have, if say you're Ferrari and you know, we're all Ferrari's out here is if definitely, if you're gonna do a check of the Ferrari, for example, you need to go through and see what could possibly be wrong with it. So usually you don't just, you know, and it certainly can happen, but there's things that we can have a look at. Right. I'm feeling like shit right now. Why am I feeling like shit? Okay. Is my sleep good? Yeah. Am I eating good? I'm spending nine hours, you know, my average screen time's nine hours a day. Well that's no, no, that's not mine personally. Yeah, no, not a chance. No, no, but that's what I'm saying is that as you go through like the little checklist for righto, I'm not feeling too good at the moment. What, why am I feeling like this? Well, I sleep four hours a day because I'm on my phone for, you know, so many scrolling doing the talks and, and stuff like that. You know, I'm eating like shit as well as you know, I'm on the HES. Like there's so many things we can sit back and go rider. If I just made a few changes, maybe that could help. Bless you. Excuse me. Bless you. Oh my God. Excuse me. Me. What's going on tonight. It's all happening. That, that change in weather has just given me the worst hay fever. But I feel okay. I don't feel sick or anything. Anyway, but yeah, getting back to just fundamentals can make such a big difference to the overall wellbeing. And I just think people just completely forget and they need to be reminded, eat well, sleep well, exercise. Don't look at your phone, socialize, talk to your family and friends and see how you feel then before you, you know, start feeling sorry for yourself. Would you agree? Well, sometimes that routine though, can that routine drives discipline though? And sometimes discipline's hard to have like, realistically, sometimes it is hard to eat well, cuz you know, it's easier to get Doberman from a cheeseburger than it is to go for a walk. That's a good point. And it's about making those smart choices. And just recently actually I've had kind of a big shift in my life where I've been making a lot more positive choices in terms of I went with my partner two week or two weeks two months without drinking. It's the longest since I've been about 17 since I've yeah, probably 17 since I've gone without drinking and. Fantastic. I haven't slept this good in my life, really. Like, so we had drinks for my birthday, like a few and have a few with the boys here, Danny manes and stuff like that. But yeah, it's the best I've now that I, cause I, especially in lockdown, I got so custom, like drinking became such part of the norm and that's one thing I've worked on is like cutting that out. Cuz again, I don't like when I drink keeps I like, I, I don't like the person I've become when I drink heaps. Yeah. I much prefer the sober Jack. So I worked on that and that was fantastic. You know, I actually overcompensated a bit, I thought I'd lose more weight, but that you know, that mum voice in my head was saying, well, mate, you're not drinking. Get your fucking Uber eats, get it, you know? Oh, get that's how C. And big fan. Yeah. Once it touches your lips. It's so good. Well, it is It is. But again, is that eating that junk food? Is that a numbing behavior as well? Big time. So that's what I'm yeah, that's exactly right. Like I'm replacing it, you know, cuz even though two evils don't make it. Okay. And not to say that, you know, junk food is bad. Well can be as bad as alcohol, but in terms of like, it's very easy to replace something negative with something less negative. Yeah. Not positive. And that's what I felt like I did quite a bit. I was just replacing negative things in my life with, you know, things that were less negative. So now like certainly worked on the diet worked on the diet, exercise training, you know, one, two times a day minimum and my sleep has never been this good and cause of my sleep's never been this good. I'm the most productive I've been in business in work, in sleep, man sleep. Yeah. So underestimate and you, so I'm so used to. Like a lot of the Goggins and stuff with traps, with animals and stuff like that. Don't Goggins not to take. Yeah. Not to take anything away from people like that, but that mentality of like, you don't need sleep, you can sleep when you're dead. I was like, I used to believe that until I saw what I, I can accomplish having eight hours sleep or seven to eight hours sleep versus, you know, three hours, you know, having eight hours and waking up at 6:00 AM versus going to bed at two or 3:00 AM. Like what prompted the decision to have a break from the drink? To be honest, Shannon, I was having really bad anxiety attacks. Yeah. I was just, I was really anxious. Like I said, I don't like the person, you know, not the worst person in the world, but just, I don't like, I really value and put a lot of work into myself for, you know, For being sober. I can be the best person for everybody else around me. And when I drink, I just, all those things that I work on kind of go away and I've had problems with anxiety in the past and it just exacerbated it massively when I drank. Right. Like the next day next. Yeah. Next day. I'd really bad anxiety the next day. But it was, wasn't just that one day it was for days after and like I'd have anxiety attacks I was having, I was getting really bad and it wasn't like, so my drinking, I wasn't drinking. You know, I wouldn't say I had a drinking problem. But I just was drinking heats more than I, I wanted to. And like the physi physiological points behind, it were like, I was getting bad headaches to a point where, and that was exacerbating. Anxiety, because I've got something what's called H C D, which is health C D that I've been working through. And what it is is it's catastrophizing essentially like basic stuff. So if you get a headache, I sometimes, or not, sometimes if I get like something minor, that's wrong with me, I can often jump to, I've got a brain tumor, I've got this and I've got that. And I like, there's no amount of science or anything that can calm me down when I get to that. And I've had to work massively through that over the past few months, cuz I had it when I was a kid that I went really, really well at coping with it and overcoming the anxiety and things like that. But just recently it started to kick in again and it was horrible, man. It's crippling for anybody that's listening, that's ever experienced it or anything like that. Even with ACD. It's one of those things where you're trying to. It's actually crazy shame because what her health OCD can do is it can actually present physical symptoms of the problem that you're worrying about. So these headaches that I was having, where I thought I had a brain tumor were actually brought on, because I thought about having a brain tumor and then all the symptoms and signs that I, you know, was silly enough to Google. Well, I wouldn't say silly enough. I need to be kind to myself is that, that was my way of coping at the time. Is that the way I dealt with that was Googling it and seeing that, and then from there, because anxiety breeds off uncertainty and there's no way unless I had a cat scan. In my room and yeah, it wouldn't be healthy to get one of those a day. I wouldn't be able to prove or anything like that. And that's where the anxiety gets to bury its little head in and goes, right. There's uncertainty here. I'm gonna stick in here. And so I thought I had to make changes. Like I went and, you know, got professional help. And again could not be more grateful for the mother. I have to support me. My partner supported me and again, Chan like you and me were talking about, I'm just super grateful to have the support network around me. Cause yeah, those are really irrational thoughts that I have now that I'm out of that anxiety driven kind of force field. I can see that. So, yeah. Have you ever heard anxiety being described as a good thing? Big time? I that's actually how it's funnily enough. That's how I present it in our sessions with talk to me, bro. Okay. How do you present it? I give the old saber tooth tiger analogy. Yeah. And that is anxiety is there to keep us alive. It's extremely positive in our relationship with it can either be positive or negative, but at the end of the day, anxiety. he's purely there to, you know, keep your life. So the saber tooth tiger, all that we go down is that if back in our cave, men, days away, your cave, men cave, women, whichever one back in the day, when you were walking around, you'd go outta the cave. You'd leave the cave to go get food or whatever. You'd hear a twig snap you'd turn around. It was a saber tooth tiger chase you back into the cave and you know, your brain would create that neural pathway. So for next time you heard a twig snap, even if it was in the cave, what would you automatically think? Yeah, you're in danger. Yeah. So it's all about those. In my opinion, it's all about those pathways, neural pathways that create but you can definitely change it in my approach now. Is a lot more friendly with anxiety and a lot more accepting because the more you accept anxiety and the less you fight it, the easier life is baby dude. It's easier to go with the flow of the stream as opposed to swim against it. Big time, big time I'm in. But I like the idea of anxiety being an indicator that something needs to change in your life. Yeah. And that that's really been a positive thing for me. It's like, okay, I'm anxious. Okay. What do I need to, what do I need to reflect on what needs to change? Why am I feeling anxious? And is it my job? Is it my relationship? Is it my diet? Is it my. Use of substances, you know, what's, what's driving this anxiety. So, you know, it it's a, it can be, you know very debilitating for a lot of people, but it's like, it might be a time to step back and reflect on, on how you live in big time. And I suppose the other thing I coupled that with was being transparent and talking about it to people and be very hypocritical if I didn't talk about my problems that people wouldn't know. Yeah. So, you know what I mean? So considering it's in the logo, so that's one thing that I really have been cognizant of is the fact that I've been preaching, practicing what I'm preaching and I'm talking about my anxiety. I'm, I'm, you know, flagging it with people that are close in my circle that know how I'm doing and stuff like that and facing it head on how's it. Again, I'm so lucky to have the friendship group I've got, cuz everyone's pretty cool. Some people don't really understand it necessarily like, oh, especially health things, health OCD. So I've never heard it describe like that, like the term I'm more familiar with is like being maybe a hyper contract hyper contract. Yeah. That's that's same sort of thing. Like yeah, exactly man. Yeah. I suppose the only reason I, I, I have seen this hyper contract before, the only reason I know it is health CD is because that's what I was diagnosed with is I suppose it's, it's a bit easier on the years when you're a young bug to hear that you've got health CD rather than being hypochondriac And I suppose that's kind of what happened, but once I've figured out what it was, I kind of understood it and it's actually unbelievable how, and it makes me think. So it's very negative in the sense that it, you know, you can't believe how is my brain giving me headaches? How is my brain? But if you flip that and you think if my brain is capable of that, I just might be fucking near from the matrix. you're like, what can I seriously? What can I achieve? If my brain can do that in a negative. it's not just designed to be negative. Your brain's there to support you and keep you alive. Yeah. And I've often, and that's, I think I draw a lot of strength from I'm like, you know, my brain can force me to do that or not force me, my brain can try and lead me into this area, but we can utilize that to go in other areas. Yeah. you know, this like I think we talked about it last time you were on, we talked about the matrix and you know, still a big fan. I'm a big fan. I just think this life is, I say it all the time when here, like I sometimes just trip out at how crazy life is Yeah. It's not like this isn't reality. Like it's two CRA some crazy things happen in this world. And I'm like, is this real? Oh man, like, is this, is this real, there's so many things that happen, like to give you, I need to plug in or unplug to give you no. Can I tell you about how I got my current job at open arms, please? Dude. So Luke and myself were about to walk across. We're gonna do the 4,000 K's for 4,000 lives, lost to suicide. Due to COVID we're gonna walk from Perth through Sydney. We're gonna walk from perfectly Sydney. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 4,000 Ks for 4,000 lives lost just suicide in 2020. Is that how many went in two? Is that so the number, is that the number in two? The actual, no. Is that global or Australia? No, that's Australia. The statistic was actually 3000 from the top of my head, 3,260 that's but okay. But. That doesn't account for you know, car crashes in terms of like that weren't accidents, overdoses that recorded as, so is that when you, I look at a lot of different areas of suicide, that's not recorded as suicide. It would be close to that 4,000 mark cause. Oh, okay. Cuz like the, the stat that I seen was around 350 in a year. It's been around between three 40 and 360. No in, yeah. In Australia, man in Australia, in Australia, it's 3000, it's 3,400 to 3,600 a year. Yeah, man. Every to give you an idea in this podcast. Yeah. You may be for two hours, we'll lose one person to suicide roughly. Wow. In Australia, see the stat. I also seen, it was like 10.4 per 100,000 people. That's the sta so maybe yeah. I'm not very, I'm not like the best maths guy, but it's too many. Oh yeah. Big time. I mean, one is too many exactly. Right. If you've experienced anything to do with suicide, that's exactly right. Like, but that's kind of, so that's what we're gonna do. Right. We're gonna walk 4,000 kilometers for each live, lost to suicide in the like that. Yeah. It was nuts. We planned it out in 2020 last year, sorry, last 2021. Yeah. And it was just before the lockdown. Right. So we had all these incredible plans. Like we, and it took us fucking ages to get permits, to go to walk from Perth, cuz we were gonna facilitate our sessions on the way. Right. Like, you know, and create as much awareness as we could talk. We had plans to talk to a hundred thousand people when it was all of it was lined up two weeks before we left lockdown. Dude, we had, so we had sponsors like Avita like Avita, motor homes. They gave us a motor home for the trip. It was like a 200,000. Like incredible motor home for us to do, but just for our crew, like, we were obviously walking, but like had our crew crew. Yeah. We had to save, so like hooked this up. So we had some incredible sponsors that were helping us out and stuff like that. And then, yeah, man, and no, it wasn't even sorry. We had our black tie on the 14th of May then week later lockdown and everything months of planning done out the window. That's unbelievable. So we pivoted when that happened, I'll, I'll get to the job in a sec, but we pivoted from that. And then we went to a walkathon that people could do during a lockdown in September. And we had a fantastic response and we had a heap of walkers that we sent a shout out to everyone that walked or everyone that raised over a hundred dollars or something like that for us. And we had heaps of people walking and the walk was gonna be You know, if you are walking it's for either someone that you've lost, you know, could just be because you know, you really wanna help out talk to me, bro. But we, it was a walk like let's say from a big Maddy, which is the whole reason that talk to me, bro exists is that I walked, you know, for Maddy and the people that I've lost to suicide. So during that walk, it was a bit of a thought about them and being like, you know, I'm walking and we walked nine kilometers a day. So it was a big, you know, decent, but that's cuz that was non suicides a day. That's the stat in Australia in a I'm telling you just Australia, just Australia. Shannon. Suicide's the biggest killer under 45 for males it's double the national road toll. I thought heart disease was no males under 45, under 45, under 45 at suicide, double the national road. I guess my mind just keeps going back, like to where are we going wrong as a species? Well, so if this was happening in any other species. there'd be reasons like there's famine there's disease. And that particular species is like, okay, we're gotta basically evolve ourselves out here cuz we're not gonna survive or something like that. Yeah. I mean, is it just, are we living, we're living wrong? Like it's that, it's that straightforward to me. Yeah. I suppose that's true. But I feel, I know it's a big, it's a big picture idea in question, but I was just about to say what's what's the source of it. What's the core. Well, one thing that you gotta remember, so we're going within suicide. We are doing already dealing the being taboo, but then you've also got religious beliefs, which everyone to their own that's fantastic, but you know, suicide being sin. So there's just so many different angles that we're dealing with it in terms of how people how people perceive it. And. Everyone's relationship to it. But I suppose if you look right, if you look 60 years ago, let's, let's go 20 years ago at how we've viewed mental health and suicide versus where we are now and how long humans have been around in general. Like, don't get me wrong. We have so much fucking work to do. Like that's, that's a given, but how far we've evolved in 20 years to we're at a point now where like, there's a lot more inclusivity. We're talking about suicide for the Mac fact that you know, we're allowed to go out, you know, we're allowed, but the fact that schools, workplaces and gyms, and, you know, we've chat, we've presented over 25,000 Australians since beginning in 2018, the fact that it's being received, like this is really inspiring to me that we've still got a ton of work to do, but fuck me, dad, we have changed massively over the past 20 years cuz you're right. Suicide is, but the trickle on effect of kids being able. Young adults being able to chat. We will see though that trickle on effect. Not necessarily now, because there still is that we're breaking that stigma of that old school mentality of hard up it'll be right. Like it fucking won't be clearly it won't be right because suicide's the biggest killer of males under 45. And we're still, you know, what is a fact for anybody listening? Is that just as many, if not more females actually attempt suicide than males, but they're less successful with it. That's oh, no. Is that the wrong thing? not less successful. God, that's the, okay. Sorry, bro. So common. Can I just say that is extremely can say like that. I mean less that they attempt. There's more that as well, lethal, more attempts. Less completion. Yeah. So it's less lethal. So yeah, no, no, that's cool. Me honestly, each time I come on, we go through some it's like, and then my mind goes, I'm gonna edit that out. Cause you sound like a fucking, no, you don't then I'm like, no, I'm leaving it in because I am ignorant sometimes and I make mistakes and it was a stupid word to say is nothing successful about it, man? No, not at all. But look, the reason, you know, what's good about this conversation though, is you may have had this chat and then going forward when someone says like, something like that to you in the future, you'll be able to correct them. And that's that trickle on effect that we're talking about. Yeah. Well it must admit I don't use the word commit anymore when I talk about it. I know I really, since our lastly conscious of it, because that's, that's what we need to, part of us evolving, right. Is being able to use better language around suicide and we wanna use less judgy language, like commit as if it's a crime. Yeah. And we wanna try and be as supportive as and inclusive. So the way that I would. Is it females use less use less lethal ways. And that hence why, you know, there's less suicides in, in females. Yeah. It's a cry for help. So we've still got, but here's the thing we've still got the issue of suicide. Right. And that's something that we're, we're working towards is being able to. To accommodate. And that's just, sorry. That's what we're talking about before you spike my coffee. And absolutely smoke me. That's best coffee with that. Yeah. It's fantastic. Coffee, tea, oil,black pepper. Yeah, that's good. I'll use it again. Not on a podcast, but I'll use it again, man. That's good for your gut. But what we're talking about beforehand is sorry, is how we've raised a female component. Sorry, just to touch back on that, of how we have raised that female component. Just to finish off that. Yeah. We've got some incredible female facilitators coming on because we understand that three outta four suicides are male, but we still have that one female and we want to try and help everybody that we can because you know, you might not connect with the guy, but that's why we've got female facilitators and, and vice versa, just as many options to connect as possible. Yeah. And it's good to see all the. You know, and you were talking about how our, our societies are becoming more inclusive. And I think it's, you know, largely attributed to this woke movement, which gets a lot of shit put on it. But I think great because people are seeking, they're seeking Frances and truth and being more like enlightened and, and, you know, spiritual that's, I think there's are good things over overall overall, but I guess my concern. Are we not building resilience at what stage do we say to people, listen, get your shit together, clean yourself up and, and get, you know, get busy looking after yourself and support yourself. I, I think man, in terms of the work stuff and that like, I, I agree, man. I just think we need to be less fucking judgey. Like if you're woke, if you're left, if you're this or that, that like, I just, you didn't like the same way. No, no, no, no. I just think, cuz remember last time I was on your me woke. Cuz you said that you were woke. Did I? Yeah. I dunno if you remembered, you said I never used that word. No, you said I never used that word am. Cause we're talking about you being woke. Am I? And yeah, I reckon what does it mean anyway? I don't know, but this is what I, what does woke mean? Like you're awake to shit. Oh, I just think it's like you're really woke up. Yeah, my, yeah. It's like you're out of the matrix kind of thing. Yeah. So. But like my kind of thing is I just feel like as a society we're super judgmental and if you don't fit in someone's box, then like, you know, you know, good. Like, it's just like, if everybody could just chill out and be fucking accepting of each other and understand that, no, like we're all humans having this experience. Yeah. Like, I know we're getting super philosophical here, but it's like, we're all going through this for the first time that we know of. Like, how do you know more? Like, you know, what way doesn't mean that you are the right way. We just need to be more. And what we're trying to do, talk to me, bro, is just be inclusive and look out for each other. Regardless of if you're black, white girl guy, what you believe in whether you woke or not, it's just being able to have each other's back and look out for each other. I think it's that simple. If you're causing no harm, then you're all right with me a hundred percent. And I think that's, yeah, that's the problem, man. It's just that there's we give. Yeah. Yeah. But then this is where it gets. So like, you know, gray it's like, well, sitting on the fence is, is, is, is causing harm as well. And it's things like that, you know, it's like, well, I think the ma I gotta stop saying, I think. I feel like I'm saying that too much at the moment, but I feel like nice way too many people fight to be. Right. Whereas just, they, like they've got to be right. And I just, just being able to live with each other and accept that you're gonna have points of difference. You know what I mean? Just like to, in terms of, oh, you know, if you're sitting on the fence, you're wrong, you can be like, you me can be friends and you or me can have totally different opinions. I just think that's the problem is that a lot of people in society in nowadays, and especially within mental health is it's like, if you don't agree with me, you are wrong. Yeah. And we can't be friends where it's like, fuck, we don't have to agree on everything. Yeah. And we can respect each other, respect each other because you know, you're a top bloke, Shannon. I like coming on the potty and I like hanging out. Thank you. And you can talk about being working and I'm not gonna judge you. Thank you for that. I, I don't know if I'm woke. I don't actually know if I really know what it means, but you're not like if that's the case and shit. Yeah. Oh, not man. I've got, I've got no idea what generally. I got no idea what the, what Oxford's definition of woke is, but all I can say, is it even in Oxford? I don't probably up yeah. Urban dictionary maybe. Yeah. It's interesting. I think I think I said, just said it. I think I lost my train of thought, but I feel like it's this inclusivity and then also, so going back to talking about your advers adversaries, like people that difference you are challenge you like let's face so about resilience. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. But what I'm saying, what I'm about to the point I wanna make is your adversaries are your greatest teachers. So when I come up against someone that has a vastly different view to me, instead of shutting them down, I'm. And I sometimes like, they repel me in it. They make me angry and they, they spark all those feelings cuz it's like, I can't believe you would think like that you fucking dickhead. Like I wanna say that to them, but what I'm starting to, like, what I've learned is I just really believe those adversaries or people you disagree with. They're your greatest teachers. I think you need to step back and really try and see things from their perspective and respect that and respect the fact that they are fully entitled to their stance and their opinion, you know? And if it's not for you, it doesn't mean you have to hang out with them or be best friends with them. But I think there's a lot to learn from your adversaries. That's all I'm saying. And I, and I, yeah, I completely agree Shannon. And I think just being. Compassionate. I think people need to, I'm just gonna keep saying, I think I don't fucking care. I'm going with it. I mean, do you I think what's important is that, you know, like you were saying, even though people have potentially juxtaposing opinions and things like, you know, yeah. Not a bad word there is like, exactly, like you said, is, is there way too many people, like you me have already talked about is that they feel like if you don't agree with them, like. It's so important that you do learn from other people, cuz what happens is people sometimes forget that opinions and other things like that. Sometimes aren't formed from research they're formed from bias and that, that like in terms of, from the family, from things like that. So being able and one thing I feel like I'm getting better at, as I a, as I get a bit older is being able to sit back and go that person, like, no one's born racist. No one's born sexist. This is fed into from when they were a kid. Now I'm very fortunate, sits back and it's a moment of gratitude for me cuz I get better to sit back and think, well, I was raised by two incredible parents at a good family house, like a roof over my head and I was taught to be accepting of everybody. But I know from the work that I'm in is that that's not the case. A lot of people aren't afforded that. And just because they do have different opinions on that, maybe that's an opportunity for you to be able to learn and grow with that person to be able to sit back and kind of. understand that. Yeah. Just because they don't agree with you doesn't make mean that they're wrong or you are wrong empathy, man. It really does come back to empathy and just trying to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Cause I learn, I learn a ton from people that I don't agree with. Yeah. I mean, when you say, oh, you know, I had two lovely grew up with two parents. I mean, I don't know what that's like, you know from a split family, like most like, like many, many people, you know, and it's, I think that empathy is what's gonna actually drive the survival of our species because, and at the moment we're all just like sling and mud. At each other and seeing what sticks yeah. And based on ego and wanting to be right. You know, and it's like, do you wanna be right? Or do you wanna be happy? Have you ever heard that saying yeah, big time. And I love that saying, so I think it's so important and that that's what a lot of people, and that's why I think that's why social media is so toxic is because it gives a platform sometimes to the people that really, really should not have it. I mean, look, everybody has the, that's the best part of living in Australia. We've all got freedom of speech. But I just think that people say really, really mean things that they would never say in person that they do on the thing is social media is not free speech either. It's so controlled and regular big time. That's, that's not, that's not, that's not an independent or open media at all. Yeah. You know, and that's actually why I love podcasting. I think podcasting is the most pure form of media. Yeah, for sure. Because it's It's. I mean, it can't be regulated. Like it's, I don't know. Like I know, I mean, some of the directories can take podcasts down if they really, if they're causing a lot of controversy, but they're really, it's really where the free speech is not, not posting on social media. I think really social media shouldn't be used for anything more than like funny memes, big time, you know, and maybe to promote your podcast and that's it. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, I agree. But that's what's so that's what's so for me, like I'm addict, I will admit it. I'm addicted to Instagram. I'm always looking at that shit, like, and I know I'm doing it you're alone. I know, but it's like it's disturbing how, how. They've they've done it to control people. What it's similar to, similar to my experience with pokeys and gambling men. Is it, is it the same thing? Yeah, man. So it's designed, so it's actually designed to release dopamine and, and all the chemicals that was scrolling. Correct, man. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, the algorithms are created by psychologists and buying very intelligent people. Yeah. To be able to, like, for example, to, to send notifications through, for you to check your phone, like, and they called ticks, how many times you check your phone, like throughout the day is you might just said that as I said, that got his phone. Yeah. It was cool. Just my friends flying to the, on the way to the airport. And anyway, keep going. Sorry, ma so yeah, I think that's important is that, you know, By understanding that all these things and being easy on yourself is, yeah. If you're addicted to your phone, like for example, my demise was pokes and, and online sports betting is that these things have been designed to release dopamine in my brain and release all these happy chemicals in my brain, which crave leaving me want more and more and mine to stay on it for longer and longer and longer. So someone who had a, who had gambling addiction or a poke addiction, which, I mean, I, I have never had, yeah. Do you get the same? Does it, does it elicit the same feelings when you are on social media? So you can compare well in, in ways. So for example, like you, you feel the similarities in it. Yeah. In some ways like it's, so it's certainly not like playing a PO like for example, for a gambling addict, it's certainly not like playing the pokes. It's very hard to emulate that because of that experience that was going on, especially within the fight or flight system and things like that. But in terms of, you know, your phone gives you notifications and gives you beeps and stuff like that. And as soon as you hear that beep you think, oh, bang, you're straight on your phone, dopamine bang. Okay. So that's why, like these things, it's definitely a hit though. Like it's, it's probably not comparative, but it, it very much is in similar in way. Sorry, that sounds ridiculous. It's not comparative, but I mean that, it's not on the level of gambling in my experience, nowhere near however, you know, the notifications and everything coming through are there, they're not by coincidence. It's there to get that person to be on their phone all day. Every day. Yeah. You don't turn'em off the notifications. Yeah. So me, I very rare. I do. I have you on face. Yeah. Yeah, I do. So I go through stint where I won't have, I don't have a personal Instagram and I don't have like, I'll delete Facebook for a few months at a time. It's tricky because talk to me, bro is like, we've got Instagram and I don't delete that or anything all the, to by Facebook, but personally, to share messages and events and stuff. I kind of need Facebook for my personal, but I find myself scrolling endlessly sometimes. And I hate that. And that's why I'll get rid of it for a bit, but it's an important business tool. So it's kind of kind of balancing it, but in terms of notifications, no, I don't have notifications set up for anything, man. Let's say it didn't exist. How would you communicate with your members? Probably in person or via? Probably via, yeah, via, but I suppose if you were to take away all technology. Yeah. I suppose it'd either be like letter you know, the old carry pigeon. No, but I reckon email, I reckon. Yeah. It'd have to be, it'd have to be email. Cause remember emails back in the day were fucking, that was the equivalent of Facebook. When you send, when you send a group email, it goes to every single one of those people in the email, every, every single recipient actually gets it. Yep. But on social media, like let's say you post a story, not every single person that follows talk to me, bro, is gonna actually see that post. In fact, the algorithm will only expose it to less than 10% of your followers. So when you say. It's a really important business tool. My question. And I use that narrative for myself when I promote the podcast on it. Mm-hmm my question is, is it really, is it really that important of a business tool for me, for like, for example, we run the catch ops each Friday in the, I run our ones or not, that's not the right terminology. Sorry, I don't run. I'm very much a part of it and we all run it, but I'm a part of the Wollongong catch ups. And one way for me to advertise to friends on there that might not be aware or might not check the group chat or something like that is through that event. Like, Hey, we have this coming up. Hey, we have that coming up. Cuz then they can then share it. Especially people like psychologist, counselors, or anything that I work with, they can share it on their platform. You know, even we got an event coming up in Darwin, I've shared that on my Facebook. And then some of my Darwin friends have shared that. And we've gotten people from that like participants that have come from that nun. Bless you. This is smacking you for six. Just great podcasting etiquette. Yep. Sneeze, cough. You had the shits before. we're going great. Like I said, that weather changes just killed me. That was the weather meant for me too. So that's the line of Coke. I just did. I'm just kidding. I do drugs, but anyway. Yeah, man. Wow. Okay. So in that sense, I can definitely see that it can be hindrance, but for me, I have seen it work because of like going to Darwin, share it with Darwin friends. They've shared it with their community and we've gotten people, members are gonna come along to that. So yeah, I guess holy, oh my God. Sorry Jack. Excuse me. Was you? Yeah, I don't know. I guess that I see where you're coming from. I know for me, when I don't look at social media for a few days, man, when I'm like, okay, I'm gonna look at it. Oh, I get excited. Like I'm like a little kid at Christmas and I don't like it. And I'm trying to quit it. And I reckon there needs to be like, can I give you a tip groups? There needs to be a 12 step recovery group for fucking Instagram. I can give you a little tip for a few of it. What? First one is putting your phone on black and white taking away color. Have you tried that part? How do you do that? Give me your phone. I dunno if I wanted, I know you wanna commit to this. How do you do this? I'm now I'll, I'll do it in two seconds for you and I'll walk any viewers I'll walk any viewers through this, right? So if you're on your phone at the moment we, we will go to settings. Where's your don't read me messages. Where's your settings for me? Why did pizza hot call you at 3:00 AM? I don't. Okay. So what we wanna do, so to make your phone black and white, and I'll explain why we're gonna do this, but for anybody listening, just let's just go into it and let's do it. You go to accessibility in settings, go display and star tech size and go to color filters and then flick the switch and go to off. And now how less attractive is a black and white phone? Oh, shit. I can't, I don't wanna look at it exactly. Right. So part of, one thing of getting off my phone is like a pokey. Yeah, exactly. Right. And see the one fun fact Chan, a, your phone looks like shit. Now, change it back, change your back. but one fun fact about your phone, right? Is that you will never see colors outside in actual nature that you will on your phone. I know then I'm like our phone's making us evolve to like, be more like, like better. With colors and stuff. Like we're getting better eyesight because of these things. No, you're getting worse. Fun. Yeah. But you, so your eyesight actually. Yeah. It's actually really bad for your eyesight to change it back, check it back. but you can't deal with it. Get it away from me. I'm telling you now, Shane, if you wanna be on disgusting, if you wanna be on your phone, Les, that's one thing that I would highly recommend because look, the first day is extremely difficult cuz you think I'm so used to it? I like it though. I it, but after three or four days of having a black and white screen, you'll find your screen, time goes down 30% minimum. It's just like, oh, I just can't be bothered. I just look shit. And then all of a sudden you start having a more appreciation for the actual cool stuff in life. You know, that's out there, it comes back to dopamine, hit looking for that dopamine here that shit's addictive. And the, you look at how much dopamine we, we use so much more dopamine now than we did. You know, when we were years ago, essentially. That's because all these new devices that are around are designed for dopamine, for us to be on, especially with technology. Yeah. So I feel like that's important to remember as well. Yeah, I think so for sure. Speaking of like really important things, man, like I know that combat sports have been a big part of your journey. You like, you like boxing, you like fighting and stuff like that. Mm-hmm do you think, like for men an outlet, like that is very important. I feel it's really important for a number of reasons. The first is that the more competent people and this isn't the case for everybody, there's always anomalies, but the more competent you get in combat sports and the more confident you are with your ability to protect yourself and to protect others, the less you need it. And the less you use it, a lot of fights in town are by, you know, these. Yeah. We talked about that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right. These Muppin arms that have no idea. So I feel it's important that it's important in that regard, but also just for your mental health, like I've, I've trained twice today. I trained once with Breo this morning then. And we trained again in one of BTOs classes as SVO. Wow. Yeah, I I'm loving training at the moment I was with jaws. And so I think it's in, you know, important to be able to. Learn how to defend, just defend yourself because it's really good for your confidence. Your self-esteem, there's just so many positive effects and it's also a release for this negative energy that's within us. Like when, you know, when you're having a bad day, hitting pads is such a positive way to be able to release those you know, release that promotion. You didn't get to release that breakup to release different things like that, or, you know, not even to that level, but do, if you've had a shit day, anybody that tip pads before will be able to attest to that. Yeah, for me as a man, it gives me the best form of like moving meditation. It's moving meditation. Yeah. That repetitive nature of it. The thinking about the way you're moving your body, but also just bond. With other people in those gyms, because the workouts are so hard, you know, like, and there's just so much admiration and for respect, for other people who are going through the same pain, so you bond on this different level. And the other thing is like, when you spar and I think everyone needs to spar at least once in their life. Yeah. Like I, I realize, I thought about it. Like, I don't think I've ever been angry at the person that I'm sparing. Have you? No, never. I feel not even once, if, if anything, I just wanna hug him. It's important. Yeah. Because there's that mutual respect for the most part. Again, anything can happen, but there's mutual respect between the both parties and you're both working together for the same, you know, trying to get better and improve. And you're not trying to that's. What's cool about if you do get a good sparring partner, is that you're able to, to move around better yourselves, hit it 50 60% know that you're both safe, cuz it's a safe learning environment. Well, there's nothing worse than getting a fucking flaw come in and trying to kill ya. Yeah. Cause then that's when you kind of do. And I have to sit back and think, what are you doing? Jas. Nothing worse than getting kicked in the head by Leon Edwards. Yeah. Yeah. Jesus. Yeah. Can we talk about that quickly hit me? Cause I know you're into the FC. Yeah. I'm only like I've only really got into the FC the last couple of years, but I've just become really obsessed with it. It's been like a lot of people see it as like a thug sport and, and things like that. But. Yeah. I really feel that it's like, there's just so many dynamics behind it. Like, you need to be good at this. You need to be good at that. Like boxing not to take anything away is incredible, but to be a, you know, and again, they're on their own level with their hands. So I won't get into that, but just the different levels of, and what I admire the most is the discipline. Because as I've been doing these things and making these shifts in my life, one of the big, hardest parts for me is keeping that discipline. It's easy to be disciplined when people are looking, but it's what you, you know, it's the cookies that you're eating at fucking midnight and that, and like, we like love about that, but I'm like, man, there's heaps of times where I've been running courses recently, I've been running heaps of courses. Like for. Assist, which has applied to suicide intervention skills training with work, as well as going away with talk to me, Brian stuff. And during that, there's a lot and lot of bakeries and a lot of donut shops on the road, brother. Yeah. And you know, it's easy, cuz not many people in it's easy for me to have that little crispy cream, but you know, I'm the one that's gonna know about it. I'm gonna have to deal with it. And that's been tricky cuz you know, I'm a human, I fuck up heaps. I'll have a couple crispy creams. And just that the reason I can say that is just because the discipline, it requires to be an MMA star is just incredible. And I have so much respect for that. Cuz a I've I've trained at a pretty good level. Like I've been over in Thailand and trained at some cool gyms. And I just know, especially with fems and stuff that it's not easy, you need to be disciplined and it's just on another level. And the other thing is that you're walking into a arena where there's not guaranteed. You're gonna come out. Okay. True. True. I do like just going back to the U UFC specifically, the more I watch it and yeah, it's brutal. The more, I understand that how well trained and refined to those guys are, but I'm also learning that the referees are so good in those sports. They really know how to protect the fighters and compared to boxing, you can really notice, like, I know they get a lot of big head hits when they happen, but they're getting definitely less turnover of head hits compared to boxing. So they're not, they're not getting as tapped in the head as much. Yeah. Yeah. Well that, and that's cuz there's just so many and when they do, it's a big one, but there's, there seems to be less head hits. You know, there's a little there's leg kicks, there's body kicks and there's the grappling and, and the wrestling. So I don't know, I'm just starting to see the actual complete. Level of these guys. It's so inspiring. Yeah. It's in my opinion. No, I completely agree. And I think, I think they're tough as, oh yeah. Tough as wood PCA, Lipps. Like you gotta be down and you like, you really have to look what tough, tough as wood PCA Lipps. Think about how tough they have to be. That's tough. They've gotta get through wood. Yeah. So my takeaway from that is just the discipline is something guide admire massively. Like some of the egos there are fucking can go in the bin, but like definitely though that discipline is incredible because I know that just even like the basicness of life after you've had dinner and you don't eat anymore carbs and you don't need anything, but then, you know, Uber eats give you that little message. You go$5 off Macs and you're like, fucking, you know what, instead of 40 it's 35. So really? Yeah. I'm pretty much making money to eat this. McClury that's, you know, we all do it. So, and that's, that's where discipline is really. That makes a difference. But that's the thing again, like. there's these quick fixes, these numbing behaviors, instant gratification. It's just epitomizes our society. We want instant GRA and we can get instant gratification for everything. Social media. What do you mean social media's instant gratification pick. That's true. You know, you put up a picture of yourself in your Jos and I may, I may, me personally, I'd be like three likes. So it wouldn't be that much gratification that many. Yeah. And then be, yeah, me misses. And what if no one likes it, then it's the opposite. Exactly. Right. But like that, that's what, I mean, my point is that like instant gratification, it's easy to get. It's it's a lot, it was a lot harder years ago to get that gratification, whereas nowadays, and you can buy things on credit. So easy. Oh mean after pay before pay this, that meant for that's ridiculous. Yeah. Like, so for when I had issues with gambling, I felt. It was unbelievably easy with someone who shouldn't been able to get a loan to get a loan. And I'm just lucky that I didn't do myself in, in terms of like, you know, go, go above and beyond my means I did in terms of the gambling, but I was very fortunate that I was able to get everything back you know, and be able to work my butt off to get back to the point where I'm at currently. Yeah. Which is the best place I've I've ever been, you know, but you know, lenders just give out money, hand over fish, man. And if you're a gambler specifically, or even if you're a shopper, like, or even if you're just bag with fucking money, it's so easy to get$500 now. Like, is it. Yeah, man, like hop on yeah. Hundred percent. Yeah. He's gonna take this bag over to this bus stop for me in 20 minutes, Jen. Like what, like for example, like you can download so you can, when I, oh, there's like quick like loan apps stuff. Well, before pay, for example, is that before pay? So before pay, you can get loans up to two grand, but it's like, and it just comes outta your next pay, for example. So if you don't get paid for two weeks, you can go on before pay and see, I don't wanna advertise that and make it be known that I'm not certainly not condoning it, cuz I think it's terrible. And when I struggling with gambling, those kind of quick fixes credit were one of my biggest demise and one of the biggest enablers of my problem, one of the best things I've done is like close all credit cards and all that. So that, that way I had to live in the present and it forced me to yeah. To make those changes not enable me. Yeah. I mean we're very controlled by money. We all are. There's no doubt about it. Mm there's a lot of emotion attached to money. I think just because we've, as a society evolved so much that we've placed money at the hierarchy we have, we have, well, it's not so much the money. It's the things that, oh, well, the things that can get you of course, accumulation of stuff. Yeah. I don't, I actually don't see it as a status symbol anymore. Really? In what regard, Sean? I don't know. In terms of like the more money you have, does it really put you into a different echelon of society? No, not at all. I mean, you know, you can be a piece of shit when 500 million. It doesn't, that's true. Doesn't mean anything, but you just can afford more things than we get. I suppose you're a piece of shit that can afford, you know, get new re each night. That's true with, with talk to me, bro. So like how's it, how's it tracking in terms of its, its I guess its continued development. So where are you up to now? I know you had, I know you've got, you know, like a base in Wollongong. You've got one in Newcastle as well. Fantastic. I ups going on. Yeah. So like, we've just not too long ago, brought out like our we've been running joint sessions for guys and girls. We've been doing like the meditation or not necessarily meditation, but like a bit of breath work and just a joint catch up, which has been fantastic. But in terms of what we've done since last time Levon and like where we're going, we're in every state now, which is super, super cool. I super humble to be in, you know, we're gone up to Luke and myself. We'll be going up to Darwin in a couple of weeks and presenting up there and facilitating a few seminars and then we'll be at Perth a few months later, and then we're gonna Mel, like, so we're in every state, we'll be nearly every state within the next six. In terms of, and that's not just like we already are in terms of, we've got following in each date, but that'll be, we, we facilitated sessions. I've got a number of them in each, in each state. And we've talked to, we crunch numbers about three weeks ago and we've talked, presented Betty yet presented and facilitated these seminars to over 25,000 Australians since we began in 2018. What, so you are passing on, like you have a formula that you work with and like a program that you're passing on to these different, correct. So we go to organizations, different workplaces, gyms, you name it. You know, what's called sh I talked to you about this earlier is we went out to an indigenous community out in bra Warrener where there's a number of suicides out there and a real bloke, good bloke named Eddie reached out to us and said, we've got a few problems here. I want use to come out. It's a 10 hour drive. Anybody that doesn't know go Google maps and type in bra Warrener and new south Wales. And you'll be able to see where we went to and it was 10 hour drive. And yeah, it's a community that like a number of other indigenous communities that need our help being able to chat about suicide and, and, you know, be able to normalize that. And we went up there, which was super, super cool. We went to a yarn circle up there. They put on like this massive feed for us and yeah, I've actually facilitated one of our seminars with one of our indigenous correspondence, I suppose. And one of our indigenous members in like one of those yarn circles and we had an absolute born, it was really well received there. Would've been I reckon we would've talked to at least 70, 80 indigenous elders up there as well as like emerging and, and things like that. And we got to, we gave out like 60 shirts and they're all loving it. We did ice bars and stuff like that. So we're going out to a number we're not just one dimensional like, well, this is how we're gonna do it. We got the, you know, Eddie reached out to us and said, I want you to come up to our community. We need it. And we did it. Oh, man, you drove. Oh, that's amazing. 10 hours, man. I left it and you know what? We had a, I've never been to that part of our country. Well, it's, you know what, it's so beautiful, man. I'll show you pictures after this. Yeah. It's like, but it's just, they're a really like a bunch of town that's are really incredible people that just need our support and for any indigenous You know, members that are listening to this podcast, you might not have heard of, you might, but I think it's worth mentioning. There's a number that's one through young and what that is. It's our help line for like, it's similar to lifeline, but it's where you'll speak to an elder or you'll speak to an indigenous support worker. That'll be able to help you. Yeah. Amazing one through young. Yeah. So we've added that to all our cards we give out to all communities now, or not just to indigenous communities, but hand out everywhere is part of our, I need help cards. Yeah. Is you've got lifeline beyond Villa and all that, but we've added one, three yarn now and it's all reviews and everything are fantastic. Yeah. So yeah, just quickly run us through the emergency, the list of emergency services and, and hotlines that you recommend. So you said lifeline lifeline of fantastic. Beyond blue suicide, callback service suicide, callback service. Yeah. Suicide callback service is fantastic. So what you, you call leave a message and they call you back. Yeah, correct? Correct. Yeah. So they're, they're really good. And then yeah, the one, three yarn, Luke and myself were actually up at since last time, your meet chatted cha. We went up to the international suicide prevention conference in gold coast and got to, we were lucky enough to listen to like all the top research what's happened recently in the field of suicide and listen to the top psychs and doctors in the world chat. And that's one thing that we took take on taken away from it was we listened to a lady who actually founded, won three yarn and were completely inspired by her story and how this has came about. And it's exactly what's needed to be able to have you know, support for indigenous people in the community because they're incredible people that need our support. Yeah. And they're overrepresented in the data in regards to suicide. Do you know what the number is yet? I dunno. I dunno off the top of my head, but I, I have, when I was researching the numbers, the Eddie is said that is it's over they're overrepresented. Yeah. Suicide's four times more likely yeah. Four times more likely in indigenous males. Yeah. Yeah. It's heartbreaking. So, so yeah, we're We've been out to tho like, you know, went out there, been to Darwin been around heaps, like we've ran our black tire recently, so we've had an absolute ton on, and we're keeping super busy at talk. Me, bro. We're expanding. Like we're gonna, we've got our leadership retreat coming up soon for like the leadership group within talk me bro, to start planning and doing some more. So what training facilitators. Yeah. So yeah, training facilitators through running them through our programs and like how we want them run and things, because that's the thing SHA that's unique is working in suicide. Isn't, you know, not the, I don't even know how you'd put it, but it's not an easy task to work in suicide. It can be dark, it can be very draining. And unless you have the right tools, I don't necessarily, you know, not just me, but with you, shouldn't be working within, even if you've got a heart to serve, it's really important that you've worked on yourself and you've got the right tools around you. Because the last thing that we want to do is put you in a position where you are like, you know, you fall into that head space of the person you're trying to help because it can be quite dark. And unless you'll. All right. Yeah. Unless you are force fields up and you've kind of got your boundaries, unless you are got your boundaries in plays. And that's something I struggled with when I first, you know, was doing all the talking bro stuff. Is that the boundaries it's really important. That's why we are pretty, I wouldn't say picky, but we definitely, because we just wanna help the people that are helping us. Yeah. You know what I mean? And not just Chucky in the L so yeah, that's important. We can do some work on that. Some facilitator training and yeah, we've got some incredible stuff lined up. We, we've got a massive goal for how many people we wanna facilitate to in the next 12 months. So. Wow, man, it's beautiful. I love what you do. That's why, like, you know, I want to join the show again and I just. You know, let's keep the discussion going and, and spreading these messages. And, and also it's just spreading the strategies for support and, and where people can reach out. I just think people need constant reminders, you know? And I was talking to my friend the other day, my friend, Mikey, if you're out there, you know, he's one of those mates who call anytime of day, you know, always we will listen, he'll listen to your broken record. One of those friends, you know, mm-hmm, you know, we're just talking about how, you know, we all fall into these dark spaces, you know, we really do, I think. And if, if anyone says that they don't, they're full of shit, in my opinion, but also like just, you sort of reminded me like, and I reminded him too, that there's so many beautiful moments as well in our life and those beautiful moments, those magic moments, that life dishes out. Worth living for. And no matter where you feel that you're at, if you feel like you've got no, like you're absolutely helpless and there's no way back, like from someone that's been suicidal before, struggled with addiction and, and has been in that dark hole. And I know you may have chatted about this Chan, but that's why we preach. It's a rough patch, not a rough life. And I know I couldn't sound a bit cheesy, but it's true is because I thought there was no coming back and that the world would be better off without me, but fast forward three years, you know, and look at where we're at now as a, an organization. And just me personally is I've never been this happy in my life. Yeah. And the moments just walking around the Harbor yesterday, I was kind of euphoric. Yeah. Cause I just had my headphones in, I was listening to really chill beads and it was just one of those moments where I was like, man, how, like, I'm so lucky to a live here and I'm like just B be alive, you know, for sure. But I wouldn't have thought that three years ago. So hopefully to anybody listening that if you are going through a tough time, you understand that tough times you know, don't last and that will. Be over, you just need to keep going through, keep reaching out, keep finding support keep, you know, if you can't handle day to time go an hour, dude. I love that. I love that. Like a day to time is one of my like mantras for life. Yeah. And then when it's intense, sometimes it is an hour at a time. But even in those really intense times, you can find magic. You can find beauty. It could be as something as simple as a, as an epic sunset or an epic sunrise, or just a friendly face in the supermarket. Like it's there, you know? And I think the reason I'm, I feel like the reason that I've become so grateful for a lot of different things in life is because of those hardships without those hardships in my life, I feel like I wouldn't be that grateful. And now what, without those things, what probably wouldn't have been, you know what, would've just been an average walk because of those fuck times where I didn't wanna be here and I wanted to kill myself. That made me, you know, that makes those walks special where I kind of sit back and I think, look at where, you know, it's that old meme, you know, that one of, I can't remember the actor's name, where he is like, look at us, look at us who would've thought, not me. People will get that, but yeah, it's, it's a really funny car. I'll show you the video clip afterwards, but you just kind of sit there. And there's a lot of times nowadays, especially where I look in the mirror and I'm so proud of who I've become. And I know that might sound arrogant or wonkish, but it's just because I know how low I was with so many different things in my life. And I'm so proud of staying in the fight and becoming who I am. Yeah. It's funny how you had to add to that. Oh, I might sound arrogant or wonkish, like that's such an Australian cultural thing. I think we have this we're that tall poppy syndrome is so ingrained. If you dare say something positive about yourself, you better back it up with, oh, I know. I probably sound like a way go. No, no, no, no. It's okay to talk yourself up. yeah. Yeah. I just wanna be cognizant of the fact that it's cuz I very much value you're right. Oh, you know, and I'll just about to go under valuing humble humility, humble. But what is wrong with saying, Hey, I like myself. Yeah. I'm proud of myself. Yes. What's wrong with that? No, there's not at all. You know, watch him. Maybe I can take that home, dude. Take it home. Yeah. Have a good look in your mirror and go. I'm not a Winker I just, I just sometimes wink. Yeah. Hundred percent just, and then my meso on the background and be like, yeah, yeah, fuck it. listen, bro. Like, it's been epic and it's been an interesting podcast, you know, we, like I said, I've had hay fever, which is never good for recording. And you know, we had the taller break issue. Sorry about that. Yeah, that was, yeah. No good for business. It's good for be but I do ask all guests to come with a cause they wanna support or advocate for, but in your instance, I think you are the cause you're the charity. Can I go with, talk to me bro, here, mom in. Tell people how they can be involved or at the very least donate. But I always think participants, we can do more than that is the best. Yeah, for sure. So if you wanna, if you sit there and feel like, talk to me, bro, is something you wanna be a part of, then please reach out to us on socials cuz let's chat. Cuz even though you might be like, I don't really have money or I don't really have eggs. We can still definitely work out how you can work in. You might, you know, you might be an account, you might be someone that can help in other ways by you know, a service that you offer. Like, you know, we had, we get people that help us out in a number of different ways. So it doesn't have to be money if you like our merch, you know donations or proceeds. We're not for profit organizations. Any money we make off merch goes straight back into suicide prevention in Australia. We've got some awesome new lines coming out. We've got a new label coming out. That's talked to me around the front, but it's got that. I really like that expression that we've kind of, I don't think we've coined it, but we're very much believing is it's a rough patch, not a rough life. Okay. So we've got that coming out on shirts in jumpers. So we've got a different couple different slogans. So if you're in a talking break, you know, get our me, reach out to us, see you. If we can come out to your school workplace, gym, whatever it is, we'll come out and chat. If you're in an indigenous community or anything like that, there's nobody that we. you know, won't present to, because presenting to everybody, facilitating to everybody is a massive ripple effect. Yeah, for sure. I also just wanna add one thing. I think there's so much to be said about being a good listener. So you can say to people, talk to me, bro, but are you really listening or you waiting for your turn to speak? And that's something I want, I work on all the time. It's like, am I doing that? But I'm really working on just listening. Listen deeply, listen. Well to sign off with that's actually, we could talk about ours on this, but we won't, but what's interesting. Shane is during helping a friend out who could be struggling, I think that's so important because a lot of the times we might be overwhelmed with anxiety or different things. If you know, you may do struggling. Or even not, if they're struggling sometimes with listening, we are thinking of what to say next. And sometimes our egos in there being like, oh, we need to say something smarter. We need to know what's going on here. Yeah. And you can very much tell the difference between that and being genuine in a conversation. So I think that's a great point, Chan is to be actually I'd much rather a person sit there, have no idea what to say, but no, be fully listening than to be in their own head. Just trying to conjure up something to say pretty much sums up being a podcaster. thank you so much for having me brother sitting here with no idea in my hand. it's just fucking sneezing every time I'm trying to say something, dude. I'm allergic to you. Yeah. Start up dude. So talk to my allergies, bro. oh man, if you yeah, I'll put a, if you scroll down in this episode, there's a. To the talk to me, bro website, for more information, I'll also put links to the various emergency services that can be accessed that Jack mentioned. And this episode is on all the major podcast platforms and whatever platform that you listen to this podcast on. Please follow subscribe. We also have the tht YouTube channel. Now listen, man. YouTube is, oh, it's so hard. Like no one watches these videos. thank God what to watch me negotiate. And I'm wondering, I'm wondering why I got all the production effort, but it's because I believe in it in documenting some of these amazing humans we have on here. So yeah, help us out, get on the YouTube channel, maybe subscribe to that as well and just get involved, communicate, you know, interact and all that stuff. I don't know. But you do you, but I'm just stoked that you listen and yeah, that's about it. Thanks brother. And check in on a friend, even the smiley ones, cuz they could be struggling too. Baby dude, is everyone struggling? Everyone's struggling. Gonna look out for each other. I don't feel like I'm struggling as much as I used to you look like I'm. Thanks man. Thanks. See how I took that compliment. I real quick you said you look good around it. Thanks man. Look like a young Denzel in this light. Do I do I could have been of sun. The sun came out on Sunday. Yes sir. I was just like shirt off. I didn't care if it was for two degrees, like, but the sun was out. I was like, I'm getting tanned. But I, the thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is like, just for me personally, I'm in, in a real bit of a, a peaceful state in my life. Like I have, I have these moments of sadness for various reasons, but overall I'm. I feel like I've just been on this seeking, searching journey for so long. I'm actually just sitting back and just enjoying life a bit more and not taking it so fucking serious. Sorry to swear. But no, when you swear, it just makes you feel like you're really saying it's P can be powerful. Oh yeah. I need to be better at picking that, but yeah. Yeah. Just, I've just been really personally, just, just enjoying the things in life. Like the presence is present. Yeah. I don't know what's what's happened and I'm just gonna enjoy it while I can. Cause I'm sure there's more anguish and despair searching and seeking to happen and all that's gonna make those happiness, those little happy moments, even better, man, but it's not good for the podcast. Like I need to be in a state of like despair for it to be interesting. just make sure all your podcast is run off to shit halfway through. Next thing. That's enough. It's got enough. To be honest, like I just want to talk about. I wanna talk about UFC I wanna talk about surfing and skateboarding, but I do really, I don't wanna discredit what we're talking about. I love this as well, but talking to MMA fighter Colby thickness, who's an ambassador big boy for talking. He's a weapon then talking to him on the weekend. And I just can't wait just to really get into the nitty gritty of his training grey regime. And what's it like to really be in the octagon and shit like that? He's gonna be fantastic. He's a good speaker too, man. Now we're very lucky to have him on board of, of what we are doing and see him wrapping our stuff and you'll see him on the big stage in the years to come. No doubt. God and boy. Yes, sir. All right, brother. You're a legend. Let's go. You. Um,