Realistic Off-Grid Solutions for Families and Communities with Kemble Hildreth of Acorn Land Labs

In the United States most of us receive our daily necessities of food, water, energy, shelter and sanitation from the 'grid', a complex system of production and distribution. This grid is a historically unprecedented economic system that is characterized by specialization, centralization, complication, and communication. It is incredible in its ability to create and supply a wide range of services and products. However, it also creates a society of consumers who don't need many practical skills or relationships with local people. Many of us would likely die if the fragility of the 'grid' resulted in its total or partial collapse if the conditions of peace and stability it relies on disappears. But even if it doesn't collapse, the benefits of decreasing dependency on that grid can help us create families and communities that experience greater freedom and health. In this podcast episode I talk with Kemble Hildreth of Acorn Land Labs about practical thoughts and simple solutions for decreasing our dependency on unhealthy, vulnerable industrial systems.

"Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,

“Come out of her, my people,
    lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues."

Revelation 18:4 ESV

Links:

https://shop.liveoakcs.com/pages/acorn-land-lab

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:07

Welcome to the Redeeming the Dirt Podcast. This is Noah Sanders, and I'm really excited about our topic for today. We're going to talk about realistic off-grid options and solutions for families and individuals. A lot of times on this podcast, we talk about farming and agricultural stuff. And if you are in the homesteading space, a lot of times we're interested in growing our own food because we want to appreciate and value just the bounty of the land that God's given us that we often fail to take advantage of, of just being able to grow, go out, grow our own, grow our own food, and then just see that miracle of the abundance that is produced with just a little bit of effort and a little bit of paying attention to how God's created things. And once you get into that, we we also a lot of us begin to say, well, what else is there in God's creation that we can take advantage of in a way that will bless not only our families but our communities and reflect him better in the way that we're stewarding his resources? And so a lot of times then we extend that to the other areas of human need related to energy or water or other resources that, you know, it's all tends to be lumped together in this off-grid, which refers to the fact that most of us receive the things that we need for daily necessities from this big major grid system, which is very efficient at supplying that energy and that water and that sanitation and that food, um, but is definitely something that um brings with it a great deal of dependency. And that can uh have risks, obviously, that go along with that. And so, as more of us look at the world and recognize that we aren't just one big kumbaya family of people that just want to get along, and um, especially when we realize just the lies and the spiritual warfare that's going on behind the scenes of what we see um every day, uh, whether it's in relationship conflicts on a small level or a big level, um, and just all the effects of sin, we recognize how important it is to um make sure that we're partnering with uh more local systems, more people that we have relationships with, and especially our own families, and looking with a little more eyes of gratitude and um diligence to what God's placed just right around us, um, and not just valuing ease and convenience and cheapness as the you know highest goals in life. Um, I think we're beginning to understand how shallow and hollow that actually is. So, our family, it's interesting. When I was younger, God's kind of put me in this space for a long time because I uh when I was younger, I um was very interested in all sorts of self-sufficient kind of things and loved going out in the woods and trying to live off the land with a knife. And how do we build snares and you know, trap animals and build shelters and purify water and all that? And uh, and so that's kind of stuck with me over the years, and um, more recently, we've experimented a bit with off-grid systems on our homestead here. And uh, so I might go into a bit more of our journey here in a bit, but I don't want to go too long without introducing to you um my guest for today, which is um actually not too far from us as far as locally, or he's also in the south, but um a fellow uh journeyman on this path of discovering how to um to more fully appreciate God's systems and serve people through understanding how to utilize those. And uh and so today with me to talk about this topic is Kimball Hildreth uh of Acorn Land Labs, Acorn Land Labs um in Georgia. And uh you can correct me if I uh pronounced your name wrong, Kimball, but uh we're really glad to have you here today.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Thanks so much, Noah. You got it, you got it dead on. You certainly did. It's it's not a neither the first or last name are too common, but um thank you for having us on your podcast. It's really an honor and a pleasure to get to visit with you and share some of these ideas.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Yeah, so uh first I want you to to, I'd love to go just a little bit into your Acorn Land Labs and just a little bit of what people can see on the internet with what you're doing and and why that's kind of um been a sensation for people uh and what people are interested in today. And then I'd like to circle back around and I'll share a little bit about our experience and what we've been doing on our homestead, and then hear some about your journey of what that's looked like to actually get you here. But tell us a little bit about uh what you've got going on online and with the Acorn Land Labs and uh what kind of um yeah, interest and uh ways that you've been able to connect with people through what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Absolutely. We we've had a winding journey to this point, Noah. Uh, I think so many stories are like that. We started building computer science curriculum for students about four years ago under the brand Live Oak. So you can tell we like the natural, nature-based names. And you know, the live oak tree is the state tree of Georgia. I grew up going down to the coast, and I love just the winding branches and the resilience of those trees in the face of the coastal winds. So there's some poetry there. Live oak as a computer science company. You know, we were going through COVID during that time, and we realized with all this computer science curriculum, all these coding activities, teachers and students were behind screens all the time. And we felt like we were exacerbating a problem that already existed for many of us. During those um first weeks and months of COVID, I was on my computer all the time for work. Um, and my wife and I started our first big garden in the evenings. It was our way of doing something hands-on, and it was so fulfilling. I'd told people for years that I was outdoorsy or I, you know, like to support local food, which I am and I do, but I'd never planted my own garden other than helping my mother or grandmother growing up. So we probably ate 30 or 40 meals that were 80 to 90 percent from that first garden, Noah. And it's a vacant lot that's just caddy corner to this one in our little downtown neighborhood. We're in a small town south of Atlanta. And I told my team about it at work. I said, it's just been amazing getting to garden my hands. I wish we could connect this to computer science somehow. So, in talking with team members, we thought about well, what if we make some sensors that take photos of the plants, take moisture levels in the soil, humidity readings, light levels, um, soil temperature, send the data back over Wi-Fi, and then students can use that data for projects. So take another two years past. We worked hard in the sensor projects, the computer science projects. Overall, the computer science company for us, it was not a smashing success. We relate to that game, but it gave us the bridge to the natural world in the garden. And in that garden, we started installing rainwater catchment, solar panels, we got backyard chickens. We started posting those videos online, Noah, and we needed a name for the garden. So we thought, you know, if if live oak is the computer science company, let's call the garden the acorn garden. That's the seed where things begin. And the garden, that term doesn't encompass everything we did. So we said, let's call this a land lab. It's an outdoor laboratory. We're testing solar panels, rainwater catchment, all these things. You know, it's about energy production, food production, shelter. Garden doesn't do it justice. So Acorn Land Labs was born. We started posting videos online about six months ago, and people they care about this stuff. They wanted to learn how are you producing black soldier flies for your chickens? What are you growing in your organic garden? How do you make liquid fertilizer? You know, how are you leveraging solar? And none of us are 100% off-grid yet. It's a continuum, you know, it's stages. But we realized people don't need more computer science curriculum. They need to know how to do these hands-on projects, and it's what we love doing. So we wound down the computer science efforts, you know, we still support a few schools, but we ramped up all the off-grid sustainable technology, these circular systems. And, you know, the experiment is still running. It's month to month, Noah. But we wouldn't trade it because we feel like we're sharing ideas that are meaningful and people really care about it.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

That is amazing. That's uh just exciting how God often takes us, you know, on where He wants us to get, what where He wants to get us in a way that uh is in a roundabout route. But uh it's often just how we can see His hand in that. And uh and that's why I just encourage anybody, you know, we just gotta be faithful with where we are. Um, you know, even I'm sure at this point in time, people hearing what you're doing is it's like, how do I get started? You know, and it's like, you know, at just be faithful where you are and you know, take one little bite at a time, and and you may not even know where this is gonna end up. And that's one of the cool things about um about this journey. But yeah, my wife and I uh I've always been interested in some of the off-grid um systems, but it's interesting because I've been a little less uh gung ho about integrating technology in it too much because you know, a lot of the resiliency that a lot of people look for in off-grid um is dependent. Well, what we're trying to do is we're trying to gain some kind of dependence apart from this grid system that we're that's so interconnected and globalized. And when you realize that, you know, again, just just the the how much technology is dependent on that larger system, uh, I was much more interested in, and I'm still am interested in what are those beyond grid, beyond off-grid kind of approaches that is basically like how our grandparents did it or how my friends in other parts of the world do it, where it's not rocket science, you know, it doesn't take a degree to live without electricity or live without these kind of things. Um, and so I was much more interested in that than you know, how to install a solar panel system on my farm or how to do these kind of things that weren't very duplicatable, um, and especially back then with the price of some of those technologies. Right. But I think um more it was interesting because I think it was a couple of years ago, I I've always had this I, you know, so back up when I was first before I got married, I wanted to build an off-grid house. And I remember my dad at that point in time going, you know what, that's great, but like I don't think you should put all your eggs in that basket. You know, let's wire it for regular utilities, let's put, you know, an AC system it let's do all that kind of stuff. And so it was neat to kind of just walk with that, like listening to wisdom in my life and doing that. And uh how now, um, if we hadn't done that, we would be in a position not to really take advantage of some of the systems that we are right now. But uh, we kind of went through this journey of trying to always have backup systems for our electrical systems um on our home and on our farm, so that you know a lot of these electrical conveniences that we have today that our ancestors didn't have make uh especially my wife's job around the house a whole lot easier. And and uh understanding that and um yet recognizing I didn't want where if the power goes off, that the only alternative to washing with our electric washing machine is you know, down in the creek or in a in the bathtub. Like I wanted to have if if we couldn't, if our normal electrical conveniences weren't there, I wanted to have really solid systems that could allow us to do it without camping out per se. Uh and that it it might it would not be near as good as doing it with the convenience of electricity, but it would be way better than any you know alternative that we if we hadn't set it up, would be the only way we could do it, you know, camping over a cook fire outside or something like that. So we've always kind of had that saying we want to treat electricity as a luxury, but have these off-off grid backup systems. Um, but then a few years ago, I think it was two years ago, um, I remember the Lord just telling me, like, you're a bit like you really haven't fleshed out a lot of these systems, like you really I've really put on your heart. And I really want you to take the plunge and just like start going like without grid power and practicing these things. And I felt like it was almost an obedience issue for me. And when your wife finally comes to you and says, just do it, like whatever, I'm game for it. You know, not every husband hears that. And so it's like, okay, all the no excuses, no, you just gotta do this. So we ended up kind of practicing some off-off grid um living, uh, where we were just trying to test what's it like to go without electric lighting? What's it like to go without, you know, water? And that was really good because it that's that forced us then to start saying, you know, I don't really want to haul water from the creek. I really don't want to just be dependent completely on rainwater's great. I can bring buckets inside on to go to the creek. Is there any way that this could come out of a faucet somewhere? You know, and so then we ended up developing a ram pump that uh, you know, like being forced, forcing ourselves to live primitively created the motive to put in place systems where with our ram pump now we can have fully pressurized water in our house without electricity, without going without hot water except what's on the stove, now we have solar hot water heating on the roof with a recirculating system and we have a thermal convection through the back of our stove, primarily because my wife is like, is there some way that we could do this better? And I would be like, I'll think about it. And lo and behold, if I hadn't forced us to like start like trying to practice living without some of those things that we wouldn't have if these normal grid systems weren't there, I would have never had the incentive to get them installed. Um, but it was mostly low-tech until I did meet a friend of mine who had a solar panel system on his house. And he was sharing with me kind of what it would take to get that for us and just recognizing how how the technology has an imp has improved today and age in which we live, it's so much more affordable than it's ever been, and it's so much more of a plug-and-play system than it used to be. And I began to realize that both uh trying to live a bit more off-grid for seasons help me see that you know, there's there's this uh a lot of us are saying, okay, well, I want to live resilient resiliently so that if what we consider normal now, which is not normal through for most of history or most of the world, which is the system we live in, if we go back to something that's not normal for us, but it's more normal historical, I want to be able to function, right? Um, but the fact is we don't live in that kind of situation right now. We do live in the age and like the the culture and the situation we live in forever long that is, which means that to maintain some degree of relevancy and connectedness and the ability to like have company over without them freaking out by you know the way that you live, um you've got to kind of like somehow maintain some some degree of relevancy in the in your lifestyle. Um, and also you really don't, because the biggest thing about living off-grid is lifestyle um adjustment, you want to not be having to make like a flip the switch, we go from the normal American life to like tomorrow we have to live in that kind of radical transition of lifestyle and skills that are required for off-grid. You want to have a buffer. It's kind of like if I'm not in a position where I need to grow all my own food yet, it's not really what I want to spend all my time doing at this point in time because I've got other things to do in this season that we live in with people and places and all that. So, but I but once if if tomorrow I have to grow all my own food, I need a buffer. You know, I need some food stored so I can do that. You know, right, we can live without electricity, but I really would like to have at least a year's worth of electricity through a solar panel system, even if that's as long as it lasted before some part broke and I couldn't get it in an off-grid kind of situation. That could mean the matter of life or death or the ability to help somebody or not help somebody. So it's helped me understand like technology and being grateful for both, you know, everything from the internet to these amazing technologies of computerized systems and energy collection systems and stuff that we have. Yes, they may not be a long, long-term solution, but they're a very valuable tool for getting to the point that we're thinking differently about the way we live, and is a very wise system to have in place to give you some kind of buffer to get through some period of crises in order to get completely other systems set up. And so that's kind of now we have a, you know, we're we're off grid. So we have just, you know, um, but we have a lot more high-tech, you know, kind of buffer systems built into play that helps us to remain relevant. So I can have talk to you here on my computer, um, and uh and still be reminded of the fact that like this morning we woke up and we're like, wow, guess the batteries died last night, you know. Right, right. And the humility of like recognizing the limitations there. Uh and so that's where I guess I just want to encourage people about when we think about these high-tech, you know, um neat plug-and-play kind of um solutions that you've been able to bring into play with your resources and showing how to design these circular systems with them is really, really valuable for helping us to make that transition and to begin that journey from where our starting point is now as Americans, that if you just jump into I want to live like an Amish person or I want to live like somebody in Africa, it's probably not gonna happen very long term, you know, and you're gonna get burnt out. So, anyways, that's a bit of my journey and and why I think um people should should care about this and consider it. But talk a little bit about what y'all are doing with, you know, these technologies you're sharing on your videos are not things that you've all developed yourself, you know, they're not your products all like we have the Israeli biogas digester that y'all are talking about and everything. But what y'all have done is really brought it where you are um simplifying the design process, which is so important for these kind of complex, once you decide to have all your own utilities, in a sense, it's a complex system with circular kind of it requires a lot more design than a lot of us are used to putting into, you know, like planting a garden. It's not that much design as once you get to a homestead level of a fully integrated kind of um like land lab like you're talking about. It's much more than just a garden. And I love how what y'all are doing is simplifying that design process and even creating resources for that. So share a little bit about how y'all kind of um thought about that as y'all have approached it yourself and what kind of things y'all are developing to create that.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Sure, absolutely, Noah. I can relate to a number of the points you made. One in particular, trying to build your off-grid home. For me, it was an off-grid hermitage before I was married. Yes. And we we've really been trying to solve that problem that I experienced over 10 years ago. But that was an instance where I can look back now and see that God was telling me it wasn't my season to go off in the woods by myself. Right. I was not being called for that. That might have been selfish, perhaps, on my part, but it it did lead to where we needed to go. So, you know, I I had seen relatives and friends and family be negatively impacted during the 2008-2009 financial crisis. I uh had friends and family that lost jobs, and I was a teenager during that season. But um here in the Metro Atlanta, there are there are McMansions and giant subdivisions all over the place. And I saw all that and I thought, that's not worth it. I do not want to be up to my eyeballs in debt, and I I don't want to be bound to a job in a cubicle that I might not feel like I am called to for 30 years, 40 years. I knew nothing about permaculture, organic farming, gardening, off grid, none of that. All I knew is I didn't want to be trapped financially when I was in my late teens. So I I was writing software at the time and a coworker said, Kimball, you're into off you're you're into outdoors these things, you know. Do you have you ever heard? Of tiny homes. I said, no, but show me. Let me see what these are all about. And he said, Yeah, it's a cool way of like paying for your home and not going into a bunch of debt. So I learned about it. And I'd been paying off student loans at the time, Noah, you know, working through my computer science degree. I knew I didn't want to code for the rest of my life. I like coding, but I like being outside too. Um, I'm trying to find a balance these days. But I I saved up some money, bought seven acres that had been logged. It needs love, it still needs love. It's on a river down here south of Atlanta. And the river suffers from pollution issues. Like it's not some pristine wilderness. It's probably pretty representative of many areas in the in the US and globally. But I started building that tiny house, and it was around the time I met my wife to be, we got engaged. We're building the tiny house together. I'm a software engineer with no training in electrical, plumbing, carpentry. We're just watching videos and winging it. And it was around that time I started reading books by Joel Salatin. So learning about regenerative ag. And um we lasted five nights in that tiny house in the middle of a Georgia summer, Noah. It was we didn't have the AC going. There, I didn't know about home biogas. I don't even know if it was in existence yet. The plug-and-place solar generators were not a thing, and we're only talking 10 years ago. If I had all the tech I had now, I could have done it then. The tech and the knowledge. Right. I had the money. It was meager, it wasn't a lot of money, but it was enough to buy those systems because my goal was I had good intentions. I wanted to be debt-free. You know, we ran a small online company making rubber stamps on Etsy, didn't make much money, but we had a very free lifestyle. And I didn't necessarily want to move to the big city for work, even though I had that skill set. So that is the problem we're solving for with Acorn Land Labs. And during COVID and after, seeing the financial crisis with housing and young people not being able to afford it, I feel like this mission is more important than ever. You know, it's in a nutshell, if I had to say what Acorn Land Labs is the goal is long term, it's teaching any person, but particularly young people, showing them that tiny homes, yurts, wafatis, earth ships, um, even canvas tents, these are interesting concepts that can and should be utilized. Gardens, permaculture gardens, solar technology, rainwater collection systems. A lot, most of what we do now is pretty low tech. We show off the high-tech stuff because it's flashy, like the home biogas unit. Even that, home biogas, they're using technology that was invented in India back in the 1800s.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Um, so we try to err on the side of lower tech. I'm a big Paul Wheaton fan in terms of all the low-tech stuff he does. Um, so the sensors I described, you don't need sensors to run your garden. Those are an educational piece. You know, if there's if there's an issue with like semiconductor trade between the states and China, which there is one, and our cheaply made electronics are no more. Well, you don't want your garden relying on that, you know. Right. Um, so acorn land labs, it's all about taking the puzzle pieces to show people the full puzzle. How do you provide for your five basic physiological needs? We all need food, water, shelter, energy, and sanitation. You can lump transportation under energy. And uh, I mean, just looking around our Metro County at the gridlock traffic, at the pollution, I'm starting to witness firsthand increasing taxes. Our overly complicated systems are about to become a higher burden to us than if we had a lower impact, decentralized lifestyle. And I mean, counties like this one will probably be insolvent in a few decades following rust belt cities. Like the Sunbelt cities have only ever boomed in my lifetime in yours. They won't do that forever. And we're gonna have to have a different lifestyle. So we're just trying to get ahead of that curve, but show people through a positive manner. And I owe a lot of that positivity to my younger brother, who you see on the videos. I can sometimes overanalyze the issues and the doom and gloom. He is the one that knows we gotta lead on a positive foot. And so I got to give him credit for that because he's right.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Yeah, and I that is one of the things that I think is attractive about y'all's videos and your things that you're doing is um that you're helping cast a vision that's exciting and that's positive and that's like fun rather than you know, you a lot of people that are approaching off-grid kind of stuff. Um, you know, like you said, it there's good reason to want to have an alternative to the things that we have today. Um, but in there's this uh equation for change that I've heard from some of my discipleship friends where they talk about in order to have uh some kind of to initiate change, you've got to have a discontent with the status quo, but also knowledge of a better way and some practical road, a practical roadmap of how to get there. Right. That those three things together have to outweigh the inertia of the status quo, right? So it is important to talk about why the status quo has challenges or is bad because if nobody's thinks there's any problems, then nobody's interested in making any changes. But you've also got to have this knowledge of a better way that's not just hunkering down in a bunker somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Right. And, you know, but it's like, how can we create these amazing villages, you know, that are relationship rich and that are beautiful and appreciate God's creation? But how do we get there? You know, like what how do we get from this suburban, you know, like you said, this picture of what we've got now to something like that? And we tend to kind of have this vision of we have, you know, suburbia, uh modern American suburbia, and then we have Amish country. And you're trying to be like, so where's the roadmap between the two? Because there's not a like that one, the the Amish community is a system that works because of a lot of different factors and culture that most of the rest of us don't have. So a lot of you know, people talk about being Amish wannabes, but we like most of us, that's not really an option unless we'd go join one of those kind of communities, you know, which most of us uh you we'd have to have a different set of convictions sometimes to go do that. But understanding that most of us are going to be called to be faithful where we are right now. Um, what y'all are doing with showing how really the season that God's given us of um, you know, it's kind of like that idea of the best of times, the worst of times. Each season, you know, sometimes uh you have like biblically the wheat and the tares growing both at the same time, you know. Um, and so yeah, we have a lot of crazy things going on in our world today that are evil, but we also have these incredible opportunities that God's given us in these technologies that can be used for bad, but also um can be redeemed for, you know, accelerating uh, you know, as these tools to say God wants us to be here, we're here. How can these things that He's given us access to take us there? Um so any thoughts on that, or you want to share some about some of the things that y'all discovered um along the way of something that you're most excited about on y'all's uh those those things making it possible nowadays that weren't necessarily there 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Right, right, absolutely. Well, Noah, just to address your first question on the journey from here to there, it's gradual. And you mentioned that earlier, you know, if when we grew our garden that first year, I became less on my high horse about certain aspects of industrial farming, which I do believe needs to go, it needs to be changed and shifted. But when I saw how difficult it is to grow food, I just became thankful for any of the food anyone had ever given me. And do would it be great to have less pesticides? Absolutely. Should we reduce our consumption of fossil fuel-based uh fertilizers? Yes, we should. Could we do it overnight? No, we can't. Um, so it gave me a I think a more mature perspective. And I'm not gonna say it my perspective is exactly where it needs to be. It's right still evolving, but it's grown. It's grown. Right, right. So I still, you know, I eat up every bit of the permaculture literature I get my hands on, but I also realize we've got a transition. And there's a term I've heard that I like, um, degrowth. And that degrowth term, it applies to establishing stable economies, circular economies. You know, this this is not a popular thing to hear in the US or the Western world, but because I've used so many of these technologies and know how fulfilling they are, I can say this with conviction. Our material consumption here in the States has got to come down. And the material consumption in many parts of the world that's never been where it needs to be has got to come up. There is this line of enough. And in the US, we've been above that line for some time. You know, I don't need Chick-fil-A every single day, and I don't need to have five or six cars, and I don't need to be able to jet for five or six vacations per year. Not that I've ever done any of that, but many could or do. You know, our levels of consumption are so high, but we're actually healthier when we focus on the local, focus on enough. Um, so that's the way that I've built that mental picture. And we're still blessed. The US is such an ecologically rich country. You know, I I'm excited to continue pushing the boundary of what it means to work with community. The technology is all important and it's interesting, but it's nothing compared to the importance of community. That's what we've been learning in this project, Noah.

SPEAKER_03 32:22

Yes. And I think that whole idea of degrowth is is interesting because one of the things we we end up talking about a lot uh as we teach foundations for farming, where we're really trying to go back to just basic foundational principles that all reflect the heart of Jesus, but that um are really why we tend to fail in a lot of our stewardship aspects is understanding that it's faithfulness is not measured, you know, in terms of how many talents you have. It's how well you're doing with what you have been given. And I think um as we've had our farm, we recognize that uh it's actually doing well with less that produces more profit and abundance at the end of the day. Um so we're not, you know, like God's perspective of the land and of people is that good stewardship produces more to go around and be shared with everyone. Um and stewardship is not like when we utilize the land, it is not purely consumption of finite resources, it's production of resources that weren't even there and uh and and multiplication of the impact of resources that are there. Um and that the larger scale you get typically, which is a lot of time because we've been primarily measuring just quantity of output of operations, um your your your productivity and the multiplication of the resources you have actually tends to go down because you're not as intensive. Like you can't really manage a piece of property to its full potential when you're going such a big scale and so industrial. And you do end up uh unintentionally destroying a lot of the things that most of us would say we really value at the end of the day, like relationships, community, health, all those kind of things for the sake of production. Right. Um, and understanding that real growth is it comes from faithfulness, which often comes through focus, by saying no to like how much we can do to do better with less, which ends up it's backwards, it's like a backwards thing. But you know, right, it's a paradox. Yeah, it's a paradox, but I made way more money off of my garden when it was a quarter acre than when it was two acres, you know, um, just because I was able to more fully appreciate every square foot of it, and I only had to weed a quarter acre versus two acres. You know, I can actually keep up with the thing. Um and so this I I remember there's that farm Neversink Farms up in New York, which is an amazing market garden. Um, and the gentleman there he posted a picture one uh time on his Instagram of this gorgeous quarter acre plot of market garden, which no weeds, just absolutely beautiful rainbow of crops. And I remember just drooling over it, but then looking at the caption, and he said, This is a quarter acre we're taking out of production because the rest of our farm is our our yields are going up to the point that we don't need it anymore. Like we're producing everything we need. So, so his like measure of growth was he's shrinking the size of his farm the better farmer he gets. And his profit is increasing because there's less weed, less tomato. And I'm like, wouldn't that be I mean, like, if we could measure success in like I can like I can produce all my own needs, you know, I can provide for my family, I can produce as abundance, and it's more like how little can I do it on, and how how much can I multiply a few amount of you know, uh a limited amount of resources rather than how many resources can I capture and claim as my own to utilize for my own advantage, you know, is is a way that um gives us the ability to have profit margin, which is both gives us flexibility and gives us the ability to help other people in a way that you know sometimes our traditional models of growth um don't. So we're not, you know, this is this is God's way of looking at things versus kind of the idea that all people are merely consumers, therefore we need to depopulate the world and we need to understand how to have thriving economies and a shrinking population, all that. We're not talking about that kind of degrowth. Right. We're talking about a kind of degrowth in terms of getting better at doing more with less rather than just you know getting more, which is exactly kind of what's leading to our whole debt-driven economy, you know.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Right. And I'm so glad you made that distinction, Noah. I think that term degrowth has been used by other circles, you know, around maybe the WEF. And I know there's there's a lot of fear around messages coming out of that group or tangential groups.

SPEAKER_03 37:23

And that's that's the World Economic Forum for people that are wondering. And they have some plenty of godless solutions for the world, which are, you know, right, not necessarily bad people, but dangerous ideas with potentially really bad consequences.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Exactly. You know, taking people from the land. And so I'm I'm glad you made the distinction with degrowth because when I think degrowth, when I say degrowth, I am picturing more tiny homes, more creative solutions, more local energy, more people on the land. Yes. I love the idea of these big crowded cities flattening out, and I know that other groups don't like that idea at all. But I I mean, I'm I I don't have the perspective God does, and I don't have the perspective that super detailed analysts do, but I have a hunch this world could support far more people if we lived in a different way, if we lived closer with those needs. I mean, last year on our 4,000 square foot garden, it was our first year doing the acorn land lab garden as a team. We harvested about a thousand pounds of produce, no synthetic fertilizers or pesticides. This year we're on track to double that. And, you know, we're not growing all of our own food yet. And 100% is never actually the goal. Right. We just see what we can do and then we share. I mean, I I buy local raw milk from other farmers and honey. I've got a I even though we grow so many vegetables, I buy produce from another veggie farmer just to shake things up.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

So that is the rich tapestry that we're envisioning for community. And that's that's the big word. Community. I mean, is it filled with solar ovens? Yes. And biodigesters? Yes. All that. But though those are not the magic. The magic are the relationships and getting creative. I mean, we've got a canvas tent in our front yard. It's like our glamping test site for Airbnb to show other people that it works. And Noah, there's a composting toilet in our canvas outhouse. I was so nervous when we first put that in Airbnb. My wife and I both were. We're like, what are people gonna think about this? But they loved it because it's so elegant and it works. These things that people think are crunchy or hippy dippy, they're really just very practical. And when you learn how to manage them, they can be incredibly effective.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

That's that's so cool. That's so cool. So I I think when I one of the things that is sometimes a focus shift that we need to have when we're talking about gardening or homesteading is we tend to think that the key to succeeding in these things is the garden or the tools or the technology. And at the end of the day, it like you could have all that stuff, but it's the gardener, it's the homesteader, it's the farmer who actually is your most important part of it because you're the that living tapestry of that system is merely going to be a reflection of the individuals participating in it. So when I when people are like, I want to put a garden over there, I'm always like, Well, who's the gardener? Like you can't really have a garden without a lot of people just want to, I want to put an orchard on that hillside. Well, who's your orchardist? You know, it's got to be somebody's baby that's taking care of it that that is gonna ref otherwise it's not gonna, it's it's only gonna reflect the neglect that the person who installed it shows it after they put it in. Right. And so the whole thing with understanding that our most valuable things that we can invest in is is like the whole part that makes all this work is our relationships with other people and and who we are. And that's why when Christians want to know, like, how what is this like, how does the gospel play into this? Or why does how does Jesus play into this? Is because I believe that we can only be the humble, faithful, unselfish people that we need to be for these things to work if Jesus gives us that heart. At the end of the day, we're we're going to be thwarted by pride, unfaithfulness, and selfishness, which is at the root of all the problems that we see in the world today. And uh, and yeah, that's the fun part is we don't, we like what we need to do to be better farmers and homesteaders and gardeners is we need to fall in love with Jesus more and we need to love people more. I mean, that's the two great, like love God, love others, the two greatest commandments actually helps us to be better farmers if we understand the connection and let God like in humility teach us how to better reflect who He is. And I think maybe you can address a bit uh when some people are thinking about, man, if I'm gonna share this kind of concept with some of my church friends or people like that, they're gonna think I'm, you know, all of a sudden uh off the deep end into this new agey stuff or into this globalist techno technocracy kind of thing. You know, so how do you how do you cast a vision for um why Christians, people who claim to follow Jesus, should care about this? Because I mean, honestly, if it's not something that God cares about, if it's not part of the gospel, it's not part of advancing God's kingdom, let's not waste our time with it, right? But if it is, we should care about it and we can't just dismiss it. So, how what would you say in terms of the way you think about that connection of faith with all these things?

SPEAKER_00 42:50

I'm a really big Francis Schaefer fan, Noah. I love how he had the boldness to take the spiritual and connect it to the physical. I think that many Christians are hesitant to do that, viewing the physical world as one of brokenness and fallenness only when God's fingerprints are still everywhere. They're everywhere. So I'll use my own little church as an example. This is a good story. So we have a potluck three Sundays out of the month, and we're only about 50 people. We're a small church. And one Sunday I was watching some of the youngsters throwing away plate after plate after plate of food, and that was just it pained me so bad on the inside. Because at our house, every scrap of food waste is used. If it's rotten and spoiled, it goes to the methane digester and we create methane cooking fuel for my grill on the back deck and we create liquid fertilizer. I love those byproducts. There's no toxins. If it's kind of rotten, we feed it to the black soldier plies and turn it into grub protein for the chickens. If it's fresh enough, our chickens get it along with our cooney cooney pigs. Or again. Composted. I mean, I've got five or six ways to use food waste. Like nothing goes to waste. And I saw the food waste at church and I talked with our senior pastors and uh small church. My father-in-law is one of our pastors, and then a dear friend's the other pastor. And I said, Can I bring five-gallon buckets for potluck and just ask folks to dump food waste there? You know, that way the methane is not escaping in the landfills. I can capture it and we can use it. And they said, Yeah, of course. We didn't have any big, like Wednesday night talk about it. I just said a few words over lunch one day and people thought it was interesting. But over the months, people have been asking questions. Other church members bring wasted food from their household. Other folks ask, you know, how does this work? How does that work? Can I come check this out? So it's just been a soft, slow launch, but people are genuinely interested. There hasn't been any pushback. Um, so I think it's just because we started with a gentle approach and people are curious.

SPEAKER_03 44:59

Yeah. And I think that's so much of this comes back to letting Jesus uh give us that humility, give us that just heart of just being faithful with what we've been given and our starting point and setting other people free to do the same thing, and then having a goal of to really serve people and just to be here not to push an agenda, but just to serve them. And once people see that heart, it's really hard to be turned off by you know what God's teaching you. The danger is once, you know, when we come and we're like, thus saith the Lord, you know, I feel like he's convicted me that if you throw away your food scraps, you're sinning against nature and you'll be one of the people that are destroyed because God says he'll destroy those who destroy the earth when he comes back. You know, we kind of take that approach in love, trying to, you know, like in our from our perspective, trying to get them like to come, then it's like it's just God's like, sorry, you're not really reflecting who I am very well. This person's not gonna take that.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

No, it it doesn't work. Um, my wife, she is the best person to hold up the mirror and let me know that when I am coming on too strong because I'm passionate about these things, Tella. I know you are too, and sometimes that comes out in negative ways. So I'm giving you the success story at church. For every success story, I've got 10 failure stories where I had to recalibrate.

SPEAKER_03 46:20

Yes, yeah. Um, and and you know, that's often how God gives us the humility is through humiliation. Yeah, yes, absolutely. We can be grateful for that.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

I I wanted to touch on two two ways that we're trying to reach more people with these ideas, Noah, because I will always be thankful for my friend who gave me that book from by Joel Salatin, because his work led me to three other people, which led me to nine people, to ten people, and ultimately to you, because I had these I could search for these terms, rotational grazing, permaculture. So that that was the web. But we've been working on that land lab simulator because there's so many little pieces that fit together. All the little pieces are not complicated, but holding all the pieces in your head. Do you do you have people that come to your home and say, How do you do all this, Noah? You've got all these systems going and all these processes. It's overwhelming.

SPEAKER_03 47:18

It is, it is, it is, and that's that's where I try to yet to they can't see how long the process was, you know, how step by step it's just little decisions over a long period of time, and it it is overwhelming. And and uh share just what is your land lab simulator? Share what that is exactly because I don't think we've touched on what sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

The land lab simulator. In fact, am I able to share my screen, Noah? Because I can give you a visual on it. Yeah. Um all right, let's see here.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

I am gonna pull it up right here.

SPEAKER_03 47:56

And this is a project that was just recently kick started. Um, and I was able to be a part of that, and it obviously was very well received and and exciting that it was uh fully funded, but so excited for you to be able to share here um specifically. And for those of those people that will be listening um with the audio and without any visual, we'll try to explain to you um exactly what Kimball is showing us here, and then you can go to their website later and actually see what he's talking about with some of the demos there. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

If you don't mind enabling screen sharing, Noah. Yes, and Noah. We had over almost 1200 people um chip in. I didn't know that you were in that group. Huge thank you for your vote of confidence on the land lab sim.

SPEAKER_03 48:46

Oh, you're welcome. Very exciting. Awesome. All right, I think I should have selected that. There we go. Awesome. Okay, here we go. Woo!

SPEAKER_00 48:54

So you can see there's a lot going on here. We're revamping some of the graphics, but this is the view portal on one of our you know test sites. Uh, my one of my my three-year-old put a few extra solar panels on uh this environment here. My both my boys like to get my computer and they call it doot doot dooting when they just take the little finger keys. So they yeah, you'll see a little bit of that action here. But we've got everything from compost piles to raised beds, um, various models of solar panel, even just biomass, you know, trees growing with the rough amount of wood that they would be shedding that you can utilize for wood chips, biochar, you know, a shed style tiny home, methane digester, solar hot water heater. All these systems are in the database in this land lab simulator. The purpose of the simulator is for you to be able to drag and drop sustainable systems. You can then go to view a summary. And it's in development, so we've got a few bugs as we're flushing those out. But the summary page is able to show you how many inputs you're taking, how many outputs are being generated, and how well you can support X people from those systems. So I'm gonna actually pull up a I'm gonna share my whole desktop and let's see here. Pardon me, Noah. I really want you to see the screen because it's the one that's the most impactful. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

Um this is one of those amazing things of being able to utilize like your skills and the computer background to be able to you know put this kind of design um tool in the hands of people, you know, anywhere in the world, regardless of you know, the resources available to them, in order to get really valuable systems like this set up without all the trial and error that you might have to go through otherwise. And then, you know, later if you happen to not be able to access the program, you still have your system that was installed and that benefited so much from uh being able to utilize this kind of design tool and and and build on information uh that is part of the unprecedented times that we live in. You know, we have access to information like no other. So it's how do we use it? That's the challenge. And that's where this tool, I'm excited. I can't wait for the release to actually get to play around with it.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

Oh, good. I'm glad I'm I'm just as excited as you are, Noah. We've been working around the clock to get it out there. Thanks for bearing with me. I want that modal to pop so y'all can see what I'm talking about. So you've got the main dashboard here where you're you're dragging and dropping the systems off, you know, compost rollers, you know, garden spaces, uh battery systems for the home. But then if you click into a system like the methane digester, um oh goodness, my computer's doing all kinds of things today. It would be today.

SPEAKER_03 51:56

Oh, of course, no worries.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Okay, this is working a little bit better. Okay, great. Yes, home meth uh home biogas methane digester. So you click a system and then you can see the inputs. You know, it needs water, food waste, manure, and labor. And then the outputs cooking fuel, liquid fertilizer. Every system on a homestead, a farm, the system has inputs, it has outputs. I mean, it's like a function. As a programmer, I view the world in terms of functions. To buy it pre-made, there's a cost if you're buying it from the Israeli company. There's a labor time estimate, you know, setup time, weekly maintenance. And that's why we're trying to set up as many of these systems as we can so we can actually give accurate data for these estimates. And then the beautiful thing about the internet, there are DIY plans for everything. You don't have to spend a ton of money to make these systems. You could get an IBC tank, drill pipe holes in the right locations with some caulk, and you can build your own methane digester.

SPEAKER_03 52:57

And so we're actually what that's actually what I have is a uh IBC tote methane digester uh at our house here that we use to cook breakfast tea and coffee in the mornings with.

SPEAKER_00 53:08

So that is awesome. I did not know that. So you've got the DIY version, yeah. Which I mean, I don't know if you've got a video online, but that's the kind of material we link to. You know, we're linking to DIY plans because we don't want cost to be a prohibitive factor for anyone wanting to make these projects a reality. Um, so linking to a you know pre-made solution, a DIY solution, learn more because we just do an overview paragraph on each system. So every system's got this same type of pain, this view where inputs and outputs. And then my favorite view is the human needs checklist. If you take all those systems, they are all you're you're trying to create about 10 outputs, 10 key needs: drinking water, utility water, caloric intake for food, square footage of shelter per person, sanitation capacity, you know, for toilets, electricity. That maybe that's not exactly a true need, maybe it's a want. Here in the States, we consider it to be uh just about a need. So we've got it in that list. Uh, meals cooked. The reason we have meals cooked broken out is because with biogas or solar ovens, you can cook not using electricity. I like the way that David Holmgren talks about electricity, it is the highest quality power source you have.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

So you you just need a few little solar panels to power your laptop and whatnot. Use, you know, heat your home with biomass, cool your home with passive solutions. There's like an energy pyramid, and electricity is at the top to be used sparingly, kind of like sugar in a diet.

SPEAKER_03 54:46

I love that. I love that idea.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

Cooled shelter, you know, no, yes, heated shelter, transportation. You know, there's more and more interesting transportation solutions, um, transportation solutions like e-bikes or um solar-powered cars, and they're not going to be an answer for everything, but it is a cool idea to be able to juice a vehicle to leave your place with solar. And then we do have labor.

SPEAKER_03 55:10

Yeah, because we just uh like recently I've been investing in uh as our lawnmowers and weed eaters have gone out, you know, my boys are the ones now that weed eat all the yard and stuff. And because I have solar power uh every day, you know, I've been investing in battery-powered lawnmowers and weed eaters and chainsaws, and it's kind of cool because now I'm not having to buy gas, which is something that I can't make myself. Right. And my sons have gotten spent a lot more time mowing and weed eating than trying to keep those things cranked and started and coming out to my office and being, Dad, if died again, can you come crank it again for me? You know? So um, yeah, is it a I love a scythe as well and sheep eating the grass, but in this day and age, like it's amazing for me to be able to create the power on my roof to run the lawnmower that my son needs to push around the yard to make it nice for the kids.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Exactly. I I've experienced that same joy, Noah. I've got a small like Delta Eco Flow generator with my panels on my shed, and I charge my mower and my chainsaw because they're electric. Like I have used gas power, they just have so much power. Like some I don't have a lot of experience with chainsaws. I I'd rather use my little electric one than some giant still, you know, just because I need all 10 of these for working on the computer. Um, so and and I love the fact that I can charge, you know, from the sun. Now, all that said, when I had some trees fall from the last tornadoes, my neighbor walked over with his two massive gas-powered chainsaws, and I was so thankful. We burned through those trees. Um, so it's it's like anything, it's a balance. But um, so this is the human needs checklist, and then we just give kind of like an off-grid score, you know, like what percentage of your needs overall are off-grid, you know, zero to a hundred. It doesn't mean there's a right or a wrong score, it's just showing you how you are getting those needs up and off from zero to some other percentage in the middle. You can export a PDF report, and then um you could export a CSV list of all the sources, where to go buy it, you know, all the prices, the DIY plan links. So we just want to make the data super available so anyone could come in, drag and drop to see what type of environment could support them, whether it's one or two people or 10 people. And then based on where you are in the world, your environmental conditions are different. So here at the environmental preset bar, you know, we have North Georgia selected with season being summer. You can change and configure those variables no matter where you're living to get better, more accurate results from all the systems. You know, for instance, the methane digester will not perform optimally with average temperatures under 68 degrees. Uh, it can perform, especially with a greenhouse, but you know, every system's different. These are not one size fits all solutions because no sustainable system could be a one-size-fits-all. It's got to be local to your environment.

SPEAKER_03 58:11

Yes, yes. I think what's so helpful is is in this day and age, you know, the the challenge for a lot of young people is that you know, when you've not grown up with this is normal, um, or people that are getting into it later, right? Um, or if it's something that uh, you know, other people in your life are a bit skeptical of the, you know, uh, I remember that as a young person growing up. I'm like, I think I'm gonna do small-scale farming. And some people encouraged me. A lot of people tried to bring some reality, you know, to help me out, to keep me from disappointments by saying that's not a real job. You know, you can't just have a small garden and some animals and think you're ready to start a family, you know. Um, and that's our dream though, isn't it? It is, but it's and and a lot of this is just for me, the way that I try to approach life is understanding that if God calls you to something, He's the one He, you know, like you don't have to, you can't say it doesn't work. Right. You know, if it's like this idea, this is not some pie and this, this is basic living, basic ways that people have, you know, had to deal with provision. And yes, it's you know, and you may be called to go to college and go down a normal route and that kind of thing, and God still, you know, works through that channel through a lot of different people. But some of us he calls to, you know, serve and um be a light in other ways that show a contrast to the current, you know, normal. And what you guys are doing, and what I want to do myself is be able to be a model or an example that um elevates the dignity and the like the, I don't know if you'd say the sanctity, but like the kingdom value of this kind of stuff. Because technology today, I think I believe that Satan wants to use technology's power to enslave people, to destroy people's lives through pornography and all and addictions and a disconnection from reality and all those kind of things. But when I see that, it makes me look at the things that he's corrupting, these technologies or these whatever, and and and have this indignation about like God created technology, God created, you know, this this cre this planet, and and he created any truth that's in even these corrupted kind of approaches where you have permaculture is so often in you know infused with a very godless new age kind of perspective, but it's so attractive and works so well in many cases because it does have a lot of truth in it. It's right. Satan loves to take that and use it to like corrupt it, where at the end of the day, people have amazing, you know, I you know, you you see people that ended up having incredible off-grid, like they succeed at all this practical stuff, and then their life is just a mess relationally in depression and all that, because without that, like without the author of it in your life, um, and without an understanding of the really any area of life that matters, there is a battle between good and evil and right and wrong and truth and lies. And it's so we as those who you know have the light of Jesus in us, the truth of Jesus in us, need to be coming and just letting like coming to these spaces and in humility saying, How do you want how are we supposed to look at this, God? You know, how are we supposed to view creation? How are we supposed to, without this, you know? When I wrote my book, Born Again Dirt, I realized that you had kind of these different camps in agriculture, both industrial agriculture and environmental agriculture, and they kind of wage war against each other because of the different worldviews they come from, but few in either camp acknowledge God except maybe to um, you know, quote the dominion mandate to uh justify whatever we want to do, kind of thing. Or you know, and and or like organic is like better, God wants us is doesn't, you know, like, but then like organic is God's way. And it's like at the end of the day, there's truths, you know, God's truth is typically not limited to one little camp and idea. Right. Humility, we've got to come and say both both, you know, anything without a starting point of the foundation of Jesus um can have good things there. But at the end of the day, you've kind of you may have solved some problems, but what have you actually accomplished? Um, you know, even if you do create a nice off-grid system, if your relationship with people and with the creator is is bad. Um, and and so that's where I think it's really um, I'm just so grateful for you guys in this space to be bringing, you know, a biblical worldview to this idea of energy and community and systems, um, to uh to kind of to to bring back the authority of Christ in this area that God really cares about because it impacts people's lives. You know, it does. And and and and so there's so much potential for if we as uh the church or as as people who claim to follow Jesus abdicate it and say, well, that doesn't we're just gonna do a church plant, right? You know, that's this doesn't have anything to do with kingdom building, then the potential for you know the the enemy to come in and just through the sinful nature of man corrupt this in a way uh that the the the potential cost is death, destruction, you know, kill, steal, destroy. That's what the enemy came to kill, steal, and destroy. And when you look at food or you look at energy and all that, if if he can if you can sow seeds of destruction in those systems, it's it it can affect so many people. And that's where so many, thankfully, a lot of people that are trying to go and help address needs and whether it's third world parts of the you know of the globe or others are understanding that we've got to step up again as Christ followers and understand that creation is something we have a responsibility towards, and that the poverty we see is really a result of our poor stewardship and not owning that responsibility. And and we should be the leaders in that space, not the ones with the worst reputation. And I'm sure that that uh you know is probably part of your heart as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

It it is absolutely. I've I've been fortunate and blessed to be able to read the thoughts of so many talented individuals. And after after just plotting through dozens of books the last few years, Noah, and many podcasts and trying to glean what I can, where I can, I I've brushed up on my history and I've tried to layer that with what God tells us in the Bible in terms of how our actions impact us in our day to day, but also uh generations and generations down. And you've actually had previous podcast guests that have touched on this, but we are in those giant historical cycles, and there is no doubt. We're on one of those historical down turns. But it doesn't mean the world's ending, but it means that we're in for some very difficult decades. We're already in them spiritually, morally, um, but it could become physically. Um, likely not here in the states, but in other countries. The gears of globalization are going in reverse, and quality of life is already declining for many people. I mean, lifespan is already declining here in the US as of the last few years. So um the US will not be untouched. It's very much touched. I mean, you mention our industrial food system, like so many of us ingest poison on a regular basis, trusting in our systems. So when you talk about the basics of living being in the ministry field, I firmly believe that. I haven't been called personally to go overseas in a missionary capacity, but I could see a future where I go overseas or work right here in Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee to install these systems to give more freedom to people. Um, whether that is because of food insecurity of or future, it could even be religious persecution in decades to come, God forbid. But it could be a reality. So, you know, today a methane digester is an amazing novelty. Tomorrow it could be a way that we maintain dignity. Um that's a good quote. Same with solar ovens, you know, like and I'm with you. I I want to use solar panels while we have them, but we might not have them forever. So that's why I want to learn how to use wood stoves and rocket mass heaters. Earlier, you said it's not rocket science we need. Maybe not rocket science, but maybe rocket mass heaters. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:46

Yeah, and I just love that for you know, YouTube university is uh has its pros and cons, right? You know, hopefully it's great for piquing interest and getting us aware of things, but often uh it can be overwhelming. And I think when we can we can rabbit trail down to oh, rocket mass heaters are oh, this, that, the other. But then, like, what do you do about all that stuff? And how do you learn about it in a systematic way that actually allows you to get boots on the ground? And that's where I just really I think it and and pray and hope that the work that you guys are doing will enable me someday to be able to sit down, like my kids and say, Hey, I want you to learn how to use this thing so you can think through these systems well, you know, so you can understand like they've experienced what we do here, but the bigger, bigger picture, you know, of until you simplify something, it's difficult to duplicate it and pass it on to somebody else. And those of us that have had the blessing of years or decades of learning things, of trial and error have a responsibility to systematize some of the things we've learned so that we can serve people who don't necessarily have that luxury. And those that are just learning, I always encourage value the systems that have been developed by people who have been doing it for a while. Yes, you may have to tweak it. Yes, you may have to adjust something. Yes, you may eventually develop a whole new system, but don't discount the value of systems because it allows you to jump light years ahead of a learning curve by benefiting from somebody else's experience. And don't pick a little bit of Noah's gardening system and a little bit of Paul Gauti's system and a little bit of, you know, Jean Martin's and calls, and we're gonna make one hodgepodge of like the best of all worlds put together brand new system that's better than all of them. You'll probably you're just gonna have to go through another decade or two learning curve like the rest of us did to develop a system. Right. So lots of systems work. Find a system that works, use that to and copy it exactly like it's taught. Um, and then you'll know enough to tweak it to what you really need. Um, and that's that's I think you will the is your simulator be gonna be able to solve everybody's problems and be a perfect tool? No. But it's it's a very valuable service to people that are just getting started that want to be able to take what you've learned and um understood is important to get down at the beginning and uh and all go ahead and curate those resources and those algorithms and everything to figure the things that they need to figure that all of us have had to do over time from scratch with our systems and be great, you know, be so grateful for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:36

Right. That's the goal, Noah. I mean, I've spent 10 years learning all these terms that I could rattle off in five minutes now, you know, everything from the composting permaculture, regenerative, rotational grazing, like it took so many nights of research just to be exposed to that world. So we're trying to put it all in one visual, and then we go ahead and make templates to where you could see the template for a tiny house like located in the Piedmont that could support two people. And you mentioned your kids and sitting them down with it. I've I've been a lifelong homeschool fanatic. I was homeschooled, we're homeschooling our kids. Now I I did attend public school in various settings, and both my parents worked in a public school system. So that that threw some friends and family for a loop that they homeschooled us but worked as teachers, they just love teaching. Um but um my one of my dreams with doing this research is giving our kids alternative paths to what society is showing them. Yeah you know, go get a four-year degree, go into $60,000 worth of debt. I was fortunate to have a small business to pay off my debt. If I still had student debt, there's no way this project would be happening today. I would be off making as much money as I could in a big city, but I was privileged to be able to elect to come back to my small town because I paid off my debt. And I I didn't have to make as much money as possible because I wanted to do something meaningful, and that we're able to do that now. Um, it's it's not always easy, but when you're debt-free, you can do the good stuff. When you're in debt, you've got to do whatever it takes to get that paid off. So I I think college is still a wonderful tool for some people, but not for all people. I know more and more young men in my church that are going to become welders and diesel mechanics, and I'm so proud of them. They're gonna make more money than they would if they'd got a the average degree. And um, if if either of my sons want to become a lawyer or an engineer or a doctor, I'll steer them towards college. But after running the numbers, Noah, like buying my own properties and these tiny homes and Alfred systems, I would rather give my children the direction from the time they start getting birthday money or earning money, and I don't want to be too serious with them, but I'd like to guide them to some extent saying, you could honestly have a debt-free little homestead by the time you're 21, 22, if you apply yourself. You've got all the technology, you've got the people around you that can guide you. If I were you, like I would I tried to build this when I was 21, 22, but I didn't have the technology or the guides. Would you rather have $60,000 worth of debt and a diploma or a debt-free quarter acre to two-acre homestead with a tiny house, then go learn whatever you want to learn to contribute in the way that you see, you know, being your your your your talents, your talents and gifts. So maybe that's a little too idealistic, but I feel like it's possible, Noah, to give our kids that kind of option.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:42

Yes. Yeah, I think. And the neat thing is the more you think about that, the more God will give you opportunities, I think, to sew into spaces. I'm working currently with, or I've had the opportunity to work with a local uh initiative that's that's uh working with the public school systems that's trying to establish alternative um, you know, pipelines in a sense that don't go to college, that don't lead to college for the percentage of our population that are interested in doing other things, so that we can serve them with, you know, um, if they want to go into horticulture or culinary or, you know, plumbing or those kind of things that we're putting just as much into supporting them as we are into those that want to go the college route, which is not always the case in most school systems. And just uh being able to elevate the dignity of some of these things where working with your hands has been so you know, kind of relegated to the realm of uh losers who weren't smart enough to go to college is such a lie. Um, right. Because the working with our hands is such a noble thing. And that's I'm always trying to crack go back to people like, so you're building compost by hand. I'm like, I know it's like artisan craftsman crafted compost. I mean, like, it's way better than what you can, you know, like so. That's bringing back the dignity of skilled artisan labor that produces really valuable things and a dignity of life that um is often lost in jobs that get you more money. But you know, though I always think it's funny how you know when you look at what I can make on paper often on a small homestead or home, you know, farm, because of the nature of the economics currently, um, it's not near in comparison to what I could make going and doing something else. But I often like it's if I can be profitable, pay the bills, if I'm debt-free, so I'm not having to service that, then if I'm living the way that I like feel like God's called me to do right now, that would be the way I lived if I had all the money in the world, anyways. What's the point of leaving this to go make all the money in the world? Um, it's funny, even the world recognizes this. I mean, people may not be like, I wouldn't necessarily go recommend going and watching them, but you have even the um the Avengers Marvel movies where at the end of the day, when Tony Stark is like save the world and it and is retired from superhero stuff, what do his hit he and his you know uh Pepper, Miss Pepper, or whatever, go do? They stay a little homestead and are learning to make compost. I mean, that's what you do, like at the Pentagon. Once you've succeeded, you've made all the money, you have you go start a little home. That's what we kind of have this idea of that's what we you know are yearned to do, that God's put that in our hearts to do. And so to be able to affirm young people that that's a perfectly valid calling, it's not something that's less than you know, being a brain surgeon. It's right what allows the brain surgeon to have a stable community and food supply to do what he does. Yeah, and not, and so that they can aspire to that and feel it, that it's a noble calling and that it has eternal value as well as a way to shine as a light and serve people in your community in a really valuable and wholesome way.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:59

It's so true. I see more videos and memes that show millennia millennials, especially millennial women, doing more hands-on crafts like pasta making. And the joke is you know, skipping straight to grandma. But I think there's truth there. Like, why would we miss the middle part of our life doing all that when we could go ahead and start doing it? You mentioned the Avengers, even um Thanos at the end of his like galaxy destroying moment, he went to his cabin with his flowers and sipping his cup of coffee.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:32

I know I love story. Yeah, I know I love story, and I just love how even you know, those who deny God's grand story, when they write stories that they know people will like, they can't get away from you know that the the reality of the true story and the truths that God's put in all of us that hearken back to to that. Like Satan really can't ever write his own new, he can't create anything new, he just can corrupt what is already been, you know, created and written. And so even in those things, you can be like, oh, I love seeing that little element of truth there that they can't even deny, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:12

It's so affirming, it really is. And I mean, for any you know, teenagers or young people that ever listened to any of this material, when I was 15 or 16, my dream was to drive a BMW and write software in North Atlanta in the wealthier communities. And God gave me that dream, but it wasn't the fulfilling thing that I wanted. I wrote software for big companies, and I it was a very old BMW, but I drove this ratty little BMW and I lived in the north side of Atlanta. And my wife and I were up there, we uprooted from our community that we had 25 years of history in. And it was the first time of my life up there that I went to a deep, deep depression, and it took a lot of work to get out of it. What fixed it beyond prayer and just counseling was moving back to our small town. We moved back here, things righted almost overnight. I made less money, but I was so much more content and happier. And we're investing in this place, like we moved back here. So, you know, part of my dream in enabling young people to have these skills, Noah, is allowing them to stay in small towns if they come from small towns, or to move to small towns to reinvest and rehabilitate them. You know, we need a rewilding, we need or a resettling of small towns all over this nation.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:29

Yeah, and I think part of this harkens back to God's upside-down kingdom. Like uh one of my friends in Zimbabwe, Brian Oldrieve, who's my mentor, he he says that uh the genius of God is in his simplicity and also this idea of like to be the greatest, you've got to be the least. Like, if we really want to help provide solutions for the big problems that our country faces, we've got to go back to small and back to the group. You know, and it's a humbler approach than like if we can just get our person in office, we can that's you know, that is not the way God works. You know, it's it's it's an upside down from the bottom up, um, starting with who we are day to day when people aren't watching. And the the aspect, you know, gardening and homesteading is a very it seems romantic and there are aspects of it, but it's a very grounding, humbling, uh, non-glamorous often, you know, thing where that reminds you that you aren't omnipotent and and you know, you don't live in this perfect, controllable world. And there's good things uh about how that helps us to stay rooted in who God, you know, in God's reality and in the reality that this world actually is. Um so, but Kimball, thank you so much for all your time today. Uh, I know we've gone long here, but it's been just so valuable and I know that it will be a real encouragement to a lot of people. So just as we wrap up, I'd love for you to share any final thoughts and then where can people go to learn more about what you guys are doing? And I know that the uh the land lab simulator app is not released yet, but uh we would like to, if they want to find out more information about that, um, where can they go?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:10

Absolutely. So our current website is liveoakcs.com. We're in the midst of rebranding all of our stuff. But if you go to liveoaks.com, you can jump on the waiting list. We're going to have a free version of the app along with the pro version and hopefully one day make the whole thing free as we continue to just move forward in how we support this endeavor. But if you look us up on social at Acorn Land Labs, um, we share all these ideas and concepts, and we're just going to continue trying to put more content out to give people seeds, ideas that they can plant and run with. But um, Noah, I just so appreciate your time today. It's uh truly a privilege to get to share these thoughts and words with you and you taking time on a Friday. And I know how big I can only imagine how busy you are. It means a great deal to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:01

Awesome. Well, uh, for everyone listening, I hope this has been an encouragement to you that it's uh spurred you to think about, you know, things and maybe uh I'm guessing some of you have some ideas of of uh maybe projects or or steps you might should take, even if it's just like, you know, I might should get out of debt, you know, maybe I maybe I should reevaluate certain things in my life. Um just encourage you to pray about those things. Don't let those things, you know, just um leave your mind if God's put them on on there as we've been talking about this, find some way to actually take some action on anything that God's laid on your heart as we've been talking, even if it's unrelated to these off-grid systems or something. Um, but it's so important not to waste uh waste the time that you guys have spent listening to this without taking some action steps and anything that God's laid on your heart. Um, but uh Kimball, I would love it if you would just uh, as we finish here, just pray for our listeners that they would have the wisdom to know in their context and their starting points at what season they are in life and their community and spheres of influence, what what things that they should do in order to not just arrive at a certain point, but the goal for all of us in faithfulness is to how can we grow more? How can we be more, you know, who it is that God's put us on this earth to be to make the impact He's um allowed intended for us to do through us.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:28

So would you absolutely dear Lord, thank you for this time that you've given Noah and myself just to be able to talk about your blessings, to talk about your people, to share ideas around how we can thrive and be better stewards here on this earth that you've given us. Please be with the listeners and anyone that tunes in to this content to pull ideas, help us all to be lights one to another, as we share these ideas and concepts far and wide, help us to be blessings wherever you've planted us, and help us to be content where you have planted us as we learn to minister to those around us and beautify, invest in, grow, and just build up the places that you've put us in and the communities and people around us. Lord, please bless Noah and his family, be with them and their work and their homestead. Just help us to minister to others as we move forward in faith. In Christ's name we pray. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:32

Well, thanks again, Kemball, and thanks everyone for listening. Uh until next time, I just encourage everybody to be humble, to be faithful, and to keep redeeming the dirt. God bless.