Conflict Resolution Skills With Esin Pinarli

Did you know that how well you handle your conflicts will influence how likely you may divorce? It's true. In the new episode today on the Dr. Wyatt Show I interview couples therapy Esin Pinarli, LCSW on tips and strategies she recommends to help couples better navigate the turbulant waters of conflict. To learn more about Esin, visit her website here. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Dr. Wyatt Marriage Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Wyatt. Today we have a special guest with us. We have Essen Penarley. She's a licensed clinical social worker. She's been working with couples for 17 years, and she's here to share her wisdom with us today regarding conflict resolution. Welcome, Essen, to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Yeah. So let's start with your background, whatever you'd like to share. But what got you interested in working with couples?

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Hmm. So I've been a psychotherapist, licensed clinical social worker for I would say 17, 17 years now. Yeah, maybe even going on 18. And it was actually my own experience with um, I ended up in a relationship that uh basically brought me to my knees, where it was just uh the most confusing relationship that I had. We had completely different love languages, we had completely different ways of viewing the world, but yet connected. And it made me just really curious about attachment and how people romantically attach to one another, the nervous system, how people show up in relationships, uh, uh the honeymoon effect. Bruce Lipton is actually one of my teachers and kind of talking about when two energies come together, they either uplift one another or it kind of goes down. And so that got me interested in understanding. And then I did a real deep dive into understanding the ways in which we attach to people, that we are all we're wired for connection as human beings, and that relationships, the quality of our relationships, determine the quality of our lives. And so that made me like want to learn more about interpersonal effectiveness and the idea that you know, effective communication and attachment and how our childhood still plays out in adulthood. And so I started training in what's called Imago, and it just was this beautiful couples modality. So I trained in emotional, uh, you know, Sue Johnson, God rest her soul, EFT, the Gottman method, and then um Imago. And I just, it was just amazing what I saw when I started working with couples and applying that technique about how much closer uh couples began, how much their communication skills, how they had more empathy for one another, and how years of resentment that was built up was able to be untangled in that couple session. We ended up sort of doing a dive into sometimes it was basically like each of their inner childs fighting with one another. So that was, I think I would say a personal experience drew me to it.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Yeah, yeah, wonderful. Sounds like you're at the right place at this at this podcast because everything you're describing is what we talk about here. And so I think the audience is going to really enjoy this discussion. So here's the first question for you How can conflict be a gateway to growth?

SPEAKER_00 3:04

So I actually worry about the couples that don't fight because I and a lot of people are afraid of conflict and they assume that if we fight, there's a problem or it's toxic. And so conflict is a gateway to growth because it's about the art of rupture and repair. And that is that with any intimate relationship, you have two different people coming together to merge into this life and experiencing life together. And you have two different backgrounds, you have two different um experiences of how they grew up, two different ways of communicating, two different, you know. So I always say that people are basically helping each other unpack their grief case. So they have the everyone comes with their own set of grief and experiences that made them who they are, interpersonally romantic relationships. And so rupture is a way that actually opens the door. And a rupture is a moment of disconnection, a moment of experience where we're not quite seeing eye to eye, or we're getting activated by the person across from us, or they're triggering us, or they're hitting a wound that already exists inside of us. And so in that moment, you have an opportunity to get closer to someone to understand where is that coming from? Why are we actually fighting? Is it about the dishes that we're fighting? Is it about you not being seen and understood and heard? And it is me being on my phone, remind you of when you were a child and your father didn't pay attention to you, and that's why it's so activating to you. And so if you have that opportunity, and I call it the art of rupture and repair because you should have ruptures within your relationship. You can't, it's not always going to be smooth sailing. So if you utilize healthy communication and curiosity about why the person across from you is getting so upset about that, it's a it's it's an opportunity to get even closer together. And when you repair, you automatically feel more intimacy with a person. You automatically feel closer to that person, and then you feel more confident in the relationship that it can withstand that. It can withstand disagreement, it could withstand moments of disconnection.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

And learning to repair is usually the the million-dollar question. How do we repair? How do we have that rupture in a curr constructive way? And then how do we come back and actually repair effectively? That's where the the skill set is often lacking for most of us.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

And I always say to my I I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

No, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

I was just gonna say one of the biggest things I say to my couples is uh I don't, you know, this is Gottman. Um, this is a Gottman technique. I always say be conscientious that when you are arguing or when you are in disagreement, that the four horsemen are not welcome there. And that's stonewalling, contempt, defensiveness, and criticism. So if you're conscientious and you pause enough to understand that don't come into a conversation with contempt, criticism, defensiveness, or stonewalling, you will have a much more productive conversation to repair. And I and then with that, I say, if you're both super activated, there's usually no adult in that conversation. You guys have both regressed to a childlike state. And so say, let's table this and come back when we're more activated. So I teach people how to self-soothe and then give a time. Can we talk about this at eight o'clock tonight? Can we talk about this tomorrow morning? Always setting a time, not ignoring it, not brushing it under the rug, but be so can you have a conversation without the four horsemen in that conversation? If you can't in that moment, it's it's a pause and it's a let's reconnect and rediscuss this. Not avoid it, but table it.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Sure. And that kind of flows into the next question. You may have just answered it, which is what are the biggest mistakes couples make with conflict, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Hitting hitting below the belt when they're super activated and really kind of uh, you know, they're so charged emotionally, their nervous system is so activated that they just say stuff that comes out of their mouth out of anger. And what ends up happening is that you're affecting the fabric and the foundation of that relationship because some scars take a little longer to heal. And sometimes you hit below the belt just because you're angry and you're so activated. And so the mistake, I think, is that that's not the time to discuss it. But one or more of the counterparts of a relationship, which I call a system because it is a system, it uh feels like they need to solve that problem right here, right now, in this right second, or they won't feel okay. And the problem with that is is you probably will be coming from anger and you'll be coming from a lens without enough clarity. And then that the repair is not productive. There's not going to be a productive repair. And then you may say things that will leave a scar on your partner that they'll can't, they'll be like, is that really your truth? Do you really think like that of me?

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Yeah. And you mentioned uh self-soothing. So I teach a similar dynamic. I call it the diamond where someone will call flooded when they start to get activated. Yeah, you can't take a break for 20 minutes up to 24 hours to get out of fight, flight, or freeze, and then come back together and use the reunite tool, which is a method I teach on how to constructively work through and repair. So that that de-flooding time, the self-soothing time, what's like a top thing that you recommend to help people self-soothe?

SPEAKER_00 9:00

So I really like to get when I work with couples, I like to understand the individual psychology of each of them, right? Because they're all so different. So it's becomes nuanced. If I tell, you know, person A to go do cold plunge and go to the sauna, but that that doesn't work for them and that actually activates their sympathetic part of their nervous system, which is the fight, flight, freeze, or fawn, then that's not the right tool for them. So I really try to create this safe rapport where I get to really understand their psychology. And so the self-soothing is really unique and based on the couple and their own psychology. But typically it would be, you know, you know, there's obviously there's certain guided meditations that I send send them. I also say to go grab like an ice cube or like a like a bowl and put cold, cold water in there and dunk your head in it a couple of times. Um, because the temperature That's always fun.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

That's always fun to do that.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Yeah, yeah. But but not too much, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:04

So I'm just put your head in some ice, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Like one minute, 30 seconds exposure, or even putting the cold water on their face or taking that ice cube and just feeling that texture and putting it around their neck on all of the points. And the reason I like the head being dunked in is because there's a lot of nerve endings in there that are connected to the nervous system, and it's the quickest way to soothe as well as breathing, you know, and um the breathing is what I like is a physiological sigh, which is a vocal, it's a somatic experiencing tool, which is when you breathe in, usually like a double inhale and then a vocal exhale with like a voo, like vo or ohm or ah, but the the exhale is really long and it's not controlled, and you just let it go, and there needs to be a vibration in here, and it because that's what settles the nervous system.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yeah. Yeah, I've heard of the technique often of stick your head in ice or stick a cold pack on your face. And it's supposed to be one of the fastest routes, like you mentioned, to get out of fight, flight, or freeze because it lowers your heart rate really quickly.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Uh uh Yeah, and it's all about heart rate variability, right? So it affects your heart rate variability in the quickest amount of time. And there are other tools, right? Go outside, go for a walk, you know, to cool down, being in nature. Nature is very regulating.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Um, you could go to take a yoga class, go do a sauna, but in the moment, real time to calm down, I really love those techniques.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Yeah. Yeah, I know that's part of DBT training for emotional self-regulation is that's one of them, is stick your face in ice, um, just to, you know, try to get it off the ledge, because a lot of people feel like they're on the ledge, you know, when they're in fight, flight, or freeze.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Yeah. And then, and then, you know, with the DBT, the distress tolerance too. I teach them how to increase their window of capacity for handling different difficult feelings, being able to, you know, sort of sit with it on their own and not when they're in the fight. So they I have them practice these things when they're not activated so that they're able to sort of bring it back when, you know, be able to use it automatically because they've practiced it so much. And then the other tool is I think when you get flooded, activated, triggered, your prefrontal cortex, which is what is responsible for emotional regulation, is offline. And so I want to bring that back online quickly for that person. And so I have them engage in what I call a medium strength cognitive task. And it you cannot do that medium strength cognitive task without the prefrontal cortex. So it forces it back online. So for instance, your first name, your middle name, and your last name, I'd have you spell it from the letter, the last letter of the last name all the way to the first one. So all the way to the, you know, first letter. So if it was like S and Penali, I'd start with like I. I make the middle name included if you have one, because the longer the better. And that you cannot engage in that activity without the prefrontal cortex. So it forces back online.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

That's interesting. Yeah, that reminds me of a CBT intervention in the seven column technique. You may have heard of it, where if someone's really upset about a situation, they write down, okay, what's the situation? What's my hot thought? What's the evidence for the hot thought, the evidence against, the balanced thought, and going through the analytical process requires that prefrontal cortex. So it gets at you out of the emotion and it helps you relax and then see it from a different angle at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

And I call that move a muscle change of thought.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Because you actually have to utilize that part of your brain, and you are actually engaging in a task that requires a different area of your brain to come back online.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

And so it's not like you're not gonna think your way out of it, you're not gonna logic your way out of it. You can name it to tame it, but being involved in a task like that requires that area of your brain, and it does actually, you know, that's beautiful. That that CBT method is is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

So, why is improving conflict resolution skills so difficult? Why do you think this is such a massive growth area for the majority of couples?

SPEAKER_00 14:21

I think the thing I see number one is conf is resentment buildup. It's so it's this either either years or stuff that hasn't been, you know, and so like an actual apology is change behavior, right? And so they're like keep having the same discussion, keep talking about the same thing, and there's no behavioral change. That doesn't feel like an actual apology. It feels like empty promises, it feels like window dressing. I get that a lot. It feels like fluff. So I think it's really hard for the reason that there's people come sometimes when they're on life support in their relationship. And so then now we're digging and unpacking years of resentment built up. So we have to do a lot of rupture and repair. And I think what's difficult is that there is either everybody's experienced some form of trauma. And I think what happens is that you have people that have these defense mechanisms and adaptations that they've developed in order to survive. And their survival defense mechanisms show up when they get activated and they get so defensive. And a lot of people want to be right. And so if they feel like they're being attacked, that's the challenge. It's like, I'm like, you know, there's that saying, right? Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? And so, I mean, they can coexist, but you know, but I think a lot of times people don't feel heard or seen or validated or understood, and there's buildup of resentment and they it hasn't been discussed or it hasn't been addressed. And then they a lot of times come when they're like, This is our last, you know. And I'm like, I love when they come to be preventative, you know. I love when people are you yeah, but I'm I'm having more and more people coming to premarital counseling before. Yeah. But I think that's what happens. You have two activated people. I say the the adult has left the room. Now you have two children arguing with one another.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Yeah. Yeah, it's really uh sobering to look at the fact that when two adults are flooded, it looks very similar to two children who are flooded. It there's like almost no difference.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

It's like they you regress back to your, you know, how did you defend yourself? What was the adaptation that you learned to survive? Did you disassociate? Did you check out? Did you fight? Did you make sure you were heard or, you know, and you got louder because or else you would get you wouldn't be seen in your family system? You would it would slip a would slip away.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing the the parallel between an adolescent having a conflict and an adult having a conflict. Um, it's it's almost identical with the behaviors you'll observe watching those two scenarios.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

I will see I will see, I'll be, I'll be like, you know, I'll I'll I'll stop and I say, do you see how quickly you move from devaluing, from value, valuing to devaluing? Do you see how there's a little bit of bullying going on? And they're like, oh my God. And I'm and I'm, you know, as a couples counselor, there's never this thing. I always have people come to me, they're like, oh, and I ended up seeing this counselor, and they took his side, they took her side. And I'm like, that's not what it's about. I'm on your guys' team to help you improve communication, to help you understand each other's psychology better, to understand when the adults have left the conversation and to see the behaviors that you engage in. You know, some people black out when they get angry.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

And then like, I don't even know that I said, I didn't even know that I said all of that. And so I think I think it's creating more pause between the reaction, right? That sacred pause between reacting and not, you know, I think it's a lot of buildup of of you know, unmet needs. That's I think the one of the biggest things too. There's a lot of unmet needs. And we have to understand that our romantic partner will not is not going to meet all of our needs. There's a reason why it takes it takes a village.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Yeah. And if you put that together, right, most couples, as I'm sure you know and have read, wait four to seven years before reaching out for help from when problems begin until they actually reach out for help. So by then there's a boatload of resentments coupled with we don't have many skills on how to handle this stuff. So you put lots of resentment combined with lack of skills, and now we're having all sorts of fireworks.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Yeah, it's a it's a it's a storm. It was like a you know, it's a perfect storm. You know, you're coming with unpacking all of these things. And then you see somebody a lot of times, like they they haven't shared everything with the partner, and the partner is like hearing things for the first time. I see a lot of that. And it's like, how long have you been holding on to that one?

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Yeah. And that's what we do, right? Because you build up these resentments and then you learn we can't talk about them without things escalating. So I'm just gonna compartmentalize and put that on the shelf. Yeah. And now when we're finally working with a couple's therapist or a coach, we have to intentionally bring that stuff off the shelf. And that's scary for a lot of people. Like we're gonna actually talk about that stuff that I've been avoiding for years. And yeah, so a lot of times it's the first time people hear things.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

And I always say titration slowly, right? You know, you haven't, we're unpacking these things, they're all gonna be addressed. You know, the slower we go, the faster we get there. And, you know, people are like, let's do this, let's do, you know, because I do couples intensives. And so yeah, so do I. When I do the couples intensives, they're like, we're ready to go, and then we want to come. I'm like, no, I need you guys to have some time to synthesize and integrate, you know, and it's not you, we can't just your brain, you know, neurons are fired together, wired together. We need your system to take in all of that information. And so when I do the intensives, we go into each of their childhoods. We go into having more empathy for the partner, we go into a dialogue process that I guide them through. And so there's an appreciation dialogue where people, for the first time, they're hearing things that the partner actually appreciates about the other person and then reminding them of why they got together in the first place. Out of all the people in all the world, what attracted you to this person? And then it sort of lowers people's defenses when they hear some positivity because they're like, Well, you've never, I didn't know you thought that way about me. So when you foster and you introduce a dialogical process, these things come out of their mouths that because there's sentence stems, right? And so these sentence stems are being presented and then it's coming out of their mouths. So then there's a parent-child dialogue where, you know, I have them play the role and they're like, I'm not your parent anymore, and then they deroll. And then they have this like deeper understanding of like and compassion for their partner, where they're like, Well, I don't want to re, I don't want to hurt you like that. I don't want to make you feel like you did when you were a child, if that's what you felt like. And then they have they understand their partner's psychology more, and then they cannot personalize things as much.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

I think that ends up by that last part.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Meaning that they're like, wow, so her reaction or his reaction to me is because she had to defend herself when she was younger, and in her household, there was a lot of fighting and arguing, and this was a brilliant adaptation that she did to survive. So it's automatic. Subconscious autopilot reaction. So it's not really about me, but that's how she's learned how to defend herself.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So when you can understand more where your partner's behavior is coming from, what the origins are, it helps you have more compassion with that behavior, even if you still want it to change.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Yes, yes. Because and I think when you have more empathy and when you have more compassion, I think there's a more of a willingness to depersonalize it. And I think, you know, there've been studies that show like you could do like a MRI. When you come from curiosity, it changes your heart rate variability. It changes your whole physiological energetic state.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

And it fosters compassion and curiosity when you have a deeper understanding of someone's psychology, as opposed to just looking at the behavior in an isolated, well, they said they did this. It's like, well, why? Where do you think it came from?

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Sure. And it's hard to be curious when you feel attacked. And so that gets into how is it going to be delivered and how is this complaint going to be talked about so the person doesn't feel attacked? Because then they don't feel curious. They feel defensive.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah. So it gets tricky really quick. So this last question I have for you, Essen, is what's the number one tip in your view for couples for better conflict resolution? If you had to pick one thing of all the experience you have, knowledge, um, what would be that one thing you would encourage couples with?

SPEAKER_00 23:26

The number one thing for conflict resolution with couples. I mean, there's so many, but the the number is, yeah, it's a hard question. You know what I mean? The number one thing is like do not get engage in a conversation when you are both flooded.

unknown 23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Or when you are both activated in that moment. That's the number one thing I could say. Like, and then in that other time, you're gonna develop these other skill sets, right? You're gonna develop distress tolerance skills, you're gonna develop how do you self-soothe. And then you're gonna practice these things when you're not activated. But when you get activated, the automatic reaction should be like, we're both not in a regulated state right now. Could we and and setting a time to talk about it? I think that's the biggest thing because so much damage happens to the relationship when two people are so flooded, activated, triggered, they they really affect the fabric and the foundation of that relationship. They can do a lot of damage in that in that anger.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Yeah. So if you're the partner who withdraws when you're flooded, then that partner is probably less likely to say damaging things. But the partner who pursues, sometimes they're at a higher risk of saying damaging things. What do you do to what do you do to help cut the partner who tends to pursue not to pursue when they get flooded?

SPEAKER_00 24:46

So within the couple structure, I the thing that so that the pursuer and the distancer, or you know, and sometimes I call it the hail, the like hail storm and the turtle, that turtle that goes in the shell. And so, and this person is like, you know, wants to kind of go forward, and this one went in the shell. If this partner usually says, can we talk about this at a certain time, is helpful to this partner, knowing it's going to be addressed and they're not being dismissed. And that partner, I work really hard with them for them to develop their own personal self-soothing regimen. And that they learn to when the partner, as long as you know, a bid for connection, a bid for connection in that moment where it's like, I'm not dismissing you, but I don't want to talk about this right now. If they could set a time, what happens with the pursuer is they get so activated and they're so flooded and they are desperate to get back in connection and they're so desperate to fix it right then and there, and they're so upset and they're so angry that they can say really mean things, but they're really hurt. Underneath that is pain. And so if you could understand that, and then the other partner can sort of state that we're both activated right now. So we get wounded in relationship and we can heal in relationship. And so that's why I recruit. It's not this other partner's job to self-soothe, but if that partner is not dismissive and is not stonewalling, but is actually setting a set time, they tend to not be as activated or flooded. And then they're developing their own self-soothing regimen, so to speak. And then they have this sort of resource installation toolkit that they can dive into. I almost help them build this invisible tool belt around their waist where they can, because at certain times, certain things don't work for them. They're like, I was so flooded that I couldn't meditate, I couldn't do whatever, like I couldn't even see clearly. I was just like so enraged. So it's like when you build that, when you're not activated, you have easier access to pull out that tool.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

You know? And when a couple is trying to deflood and take a break from one another, how do you help them differentiate that this is flooding and not this is deflooding and not stonewalling?

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Because there is a a communication and a set time that where they're gonna come back to it, right? So there's a clear, there's clarity there.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

So there's not just uh walking away. There's not just that I'm not doing this right now, I'm not doing this with you, I'm not talking about this. There's a set time where it's like I am I we will revisit this in 24 hours, or I'm gonna go take a ride in the car, but I'll be back, I'll be back in three hours. Setting that time, you know, that time and that acknowledgement in that moment is like crucial, I think.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. Cause I know some people get worried about that. So if I take this break with what my guidelines are 20 minutes up to 24 hours, how is how is my partner not going to feel like I'm stonewalling them? And I often say the same thing. Well, it's because it's a strategy you guys have agreed upon in advance that we're gonna be taking this break for this amount of time. So therefore it's not stonewalling. And if you do communicate, it's just functional communication, like who's who's making dinner tonight? And other than that, we are intentionally we're intentionally trying to stay out of each other's hair so that we don't re-spark that conflict before we're both deflooded.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Absolutely. And that right, like it's just gonna be logistics, like you say, it's just gonna be logistics or whatnot, but you've already communicated that you're getting back to it.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So all the listeners out there, as you can see, there's a lot of angles to conflict resolution. If you're struggling in conflict conflict resolution, you are not alone. It is hard. Almost no one has a perfect upbringing with conflict resolution, and so we lack the skills, and then we have resentments in our relationship, and so it's easy to have these ruptures and not know how to repair. So I just want to encourage all the listeners, first of all, to give yourself grace and to give your partner grace, and then do some research. Go to your search engine, your preferred search engine, start typing in conflict resolution skills because there's always room for improvement. And the better you can master conflict resolution, the better your relationship is gonna get. Because if you're not able to work through your issues, you're gonna stay stuck in those issues. Uh so I really appreciate S and all your insights and your thoughts and your guidance. If the listeners want to get in touch with you for more support, what's the best way?

SPEAKER_00 29:35

So I have a website, it's called eternal wellness counseling.com, and I have a uh coaching company and a psychotherapeutic company. And then my love letter to everybody is I have a Instagram where it's um Essen, I think it's Essen underscore Penarly, LCSW. I'm not sure, I'm not quite sure. I have to look at it.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

I just looked it up. I can I can look at it real quick if you like while you keep going. So I give a lot it's uh Essen Penarly underscore LCSW.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Yes, and on there I provide a lot of I have an inner child work um free PDF. I have becoming aware of self. So there's a lot of free tools. It's like my love letter to like psychoeducate people. If they could, you know, I offer a lot of free tools. I'm still developing a bunch of like things so that people have a starting point or they can understand. And there's a lot of you know, free psychoeducation, and that's my like love letter to kind of share things. A lot of times people are like, oh my God, that's my partner, or oh my God, now I have a better understanding. Like, I'm just looking for someone to have a starting point or a light bulb moment, and um, you know, and then I offer those free tools so that somebody could get started, especially if somebody can't afford therapy or they or they can't, at least they have some kind of a starting point where they can get some information, they can get some psychoeducation, and they can have these gentle guides that, you know, I teach to go slowly and to, you know, and then that opens up hopefully the window for somebody to be able to bring it to somebody.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Yeah, wonderful. And I'll include a link to your website in the show notes so everyone can check that as well to learn more about Essen. And if you enjoyed this episode, if you found value in it, be sure to share it with one other person in your community today to pay it forward. Thanks for tuning in, and I'll see you in the next one.