Greg Apps: The Secret to Audition Success | Two Unemployed Actors Ep 109

Two Unemployed Actors | Episode 109: Greg Apps

Welcome back to another episode of Two Unemployed Actors. In Episode 109, we are diving deep into the psychology of the casting room with one of the industry's most respected voices: Greg Apps. With over 80 films and countless television hours under his belt, Greg has seen it all—and he’s here to tell you why your "best" acting might actually be what's standing in the way of your next big role.

Greg is the mastermind behind "The Audition Technique," a revolutionary approach that challenges the traditional "performance" model. Instead of focusing on technical perfection or hitting every mark, Greg encourages actors to find the organic connection and the unique "vibe" that makes a tape unforgettable. In this conversation, we explore the shift from being a "good student" to being a compelling human being on screen, explaining the science of human connection from the perspective of a seasoned casting director.

Inside the Episode

We break down the nuances of self-taping in the modern era, the first ten seconds of a submission, and how to manage the mental hurdles of rejection. Greg shares candid advice on how to stop worrying about the script and start focusing on the impact you have on the viewer. Whether you are navigating the Australian screen industry or looking to break into international markets, his insights offer a practical roadmap for the working actor.

And this episode isn't just about technical tips; it’s about a complete mindset shift. We discuss the reality of the industry today and how to maintain your passion while navigating the "numbers game." Join us for an hour of blunt honesty and incredible wisdom that will help you stop "acting" and start getting cast. Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review to help us continue bringing world-class guests to the show. It is time to take control of your craft and your professional career.

Episode Webpage: https://shorturl.at/3s11j

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

How do we know what to do to show what we that we're right for that role? That's not the goal. That film was the film I had the most knockbacks on. Really? Only text one person to say, oh no, I don't like that idea. Off the table. Gone. And those casting directors aren't really casting directors.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

What's the most common reason an otherwise talented actor gets a no from you? What did you do that made me pay attention?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

What did you how did you capture that? So many casting directors disagree with you. Yep. And so many actors don't no don't understand you have freedom.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Welcome back to two unemployed actors. I'm actor Max Belmonte. Have you ever wondered why you're getting a no, even when your tape is perfect? Today we're sitting down with casting director Greg Apps to dismantle the myths of the audition room and find out what it actually takes to stand out in a very crowded industry.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Two unemployed actors. Two unemployed actors. They're just between projects.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Welcome, Greg. Thank you for making the time to talk well directly to the acting community.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

My pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

And speaking of acting, can we start by talking about your experience, the evolution of Greg Apps, the actor? Because weren't you in Rocky Horror Show?

SPEAKER_01 1:18

I was indeed. I was indeed at a time when sort of being in the Rocky Horror Show was something very, very special, let me tell you. Um I actually sort of did um speech training. And I did that through high school, and then in and then I got an agent, you know, because they were, you know, they asked my kind of my speech teacher. And the thing about auditions back in those days, I'm talking the kind of the early 70s. The thing about auditions in those days is it's pre-fax machine, pre-computer, pre-everything. So in fact, when you got an audition, what happened was they said, I'll go to the ABC at this time and here's the address. And when you got there, they'd put audition sides in your hands, and then what you'd do is you'd do a cold read with the producer, usually with the producer, across a table. Because the producer, of course, sat opposite you so that they could see you. And then what they did is they took a Polaroid, Polaroid of you. You know, you went in with your 10 by 8 in your resume. They took a Polaroid of you, and that's the kind of the classic era when you got cast on Polaroids. Oh my gosh. And but they had to do it by memory because it's like there was no taping.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Right. So they've got the Polaroids to refresh their memory on your performance in the room. So I guess you really got to make an impact.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Well, it's a little hard when you it's a cold read sitting in a chair in an office. I remember I did have I did have an audition for number 96. Right. And I remember though, because you know, there is no there was no mobile phones. So I remember I went out for a day and and turned tied one on. Tied one on to be honest with with four of my mates. And um I rang my parents in the morning to say, sorry, I didn't make it home last night. And they said, Your agent rang just after you left. You've got an audition on this morning. I said, Oh my god. So I went home and had a shower and got ready and went to the place and yes, got a cold read. And there I was sitting in a chair playing chasings on the beach, having not slept for 24 hours. No, there's no there's no silver lining to that story. I didn't get the job. And the other thing was, and this this shows you the evolution of the way taping has come. Yeah, what happened was is because it were, you know, they were very excited to say, and we're videotaping this, we've got a videotape, we've got a camera. But what I did was is I sat opposite the producer, because that's where that's what you always did. You sat in a chair and the producer was there. And the camera was off to the side. And the reader was off to the other side, and they said, Can you look at can you favor camera when you deliver your lines? So the person I'm talking to is there, but they want me to talk this way, and the producer was the person with which is where the camera should have been. I've seen, I've seen taped auditions from its infancy.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

That is quite the evolution of the casting process and and from both sides. I mean, well, first of all, the biggest burning question for me is do you still try on the fishnets every now and then just to reminisce about Rocky Hor?

SPEAKER_01 4:21

I I don't know that I can admit that it publicly, but sort of you know, between you between you and me once or twice.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Well, in fact, if you were if you were casting a revival today, what what's the most important quality you'd look for in a modern Brad or Janet?

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Interestingly enough, I did it's a few years ago now, but I was asked to cast, I think there were two or three roles that sort of, you know, I think it was the Gordon Frost organization, um, the Rocky Horror Show. I was asked to cast, and I had to cast three characters or something like that, one of which was Brad. Right. And I gotta say, the the guys that got came in, all triple threats, singer, dancer, actors. Fantastic. I would have never stood a chance. I would because I was an actor that could hold a tune. I wasn't a kind of, you know. Luckily with Brad, I don't think he's supposed to be a kind of a a red-hot dancer, so therefore I I fit it in perfectly. Um but what what you would look for, hmm. I mean, so much, and I mean, you know, Rocky Horror is a kind of a good example, so much is visual. And it is that uh you need to keep in mind, you know, where do you fit visually? What are your strong points? You know, it's kind of like, you know, when I when I think let's face it, and I I say this to actors various times, go and look at or Google or AI, the kind of the great movie character actors who that were in small parts in the 70s and 80s. And you'll see faces there that, you know, you don't know their name. You you might know one or two of their credits, because they were, you know, fabulous in something, but you know exactly the character they play. Because that's the way casting was done back then. It was kind of, you know, not it wasn't deeply considered. They didn't do lots of auditions and things like that. What they did was is, you know, it was, dare I say, I think it was the kind of, you know, the support staff, the kind of the the admin in the producer's office that um that that made the choices. And so they said, Oh, we'll get so-and-so in for the baddie because he's played it before. I know he can do the role.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Do you think your acting perspective influenced the way you treat actors uh over the years when they've walked into your casting room?

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Oh, definitely, definitely. I think I think though that treatment, that treatment, if you ask any experienced casting director, they'll say the same thing. That that treatment is not just in the room, that treatment is in the waiting room. It's like, you know, I'm aging myself to say waiting room and in the room and all that kind of thing, I know. But it's kind of like, you know, it it's about it's about r relaxing them and making them feel like they're in a comfortable situation from the waiting room. Because, you know, for anybody who's been through that process, and a lot of new actors haven't. They've, you know, I I've asked actors, you know, have you met your agent? And so many of them haven't. Have never been face to face with their agent. I did a post many, you know, on my Facebook page and it talked about sort of, you know, what do you miss most about sort of acting in the 70s and 80s? Or what do you miss most about your agent? And everybody would go into their agent weekly because there was no digital transfer of funds. So for you to get paid, it was a check.

unknown 7:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

And you'd go in, if you were working, you'd have to go in and get your check. But you went into the agency and there was always two or three actors to chat to. But then when you went to an audition, you sat in the waiting room and there were six or seven or eight actors that you always were always in the room because you were always up for the same roles. There is that kind of engagement, and and I think that isolation that sort of has been created by self-taping, I think that isolation is increasing the kind of you know, mental health uh uh, you know, concerns or kind of, you know, the pressure, the stress that is put upon you. I mean, and it's only put upon you by yourself. Yeah. But it's there is no kind of, you know, uh um collaborative feel. There's no kind of you know community feel in the self-taping process, which is a shame.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah, and actors, it's more pressure to have to do more to stay engaged in the industry on every level, um, because it is so much you're you're in the room staring at your camera, doing so many more takes you probably don't need to do, but it's in your head.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Well, there you are, you've got no feedback, you've got no kind of you know, engagement, sort of, you know, might even have a digital reader, you know, so it's like they're not there to help you, and you go, What will I do now?

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Th this is something that um I'm really interested to know because you've been credited with casting some career breakout roles for stars like Russell Crowe, Guy Pierce, and Eric Bunner, just to name a few. Is there a common thread or a specific energy you remember seeing in them before they were famous?

SPEAKER_01 9:07

I think there's a psychological approach with actors, and it's it's to do with and it's to do with the whole kind of journey of being an actor of sort of, you know, um of sort of being tested. You know, you are tested, you walk into you step in front of a camera for an audition and you feel like you're on show, and you are to a certain extent, but the actor that can transcend that actually gets out there and actually creates a kind of an identity for this character that is unique to them, it's probably an extension of a lot of their own qualities, and it's like it's that territory, so many actors come in with the kind of the desire to be to you know, to want to please, to want to give them what they want. How many times has an actor came into the room for me and said, just tell me what you want? It it's in the um there's a clip, there's a clip online of uh Johnny Dramer auditioning for CSI and um um Entourage. If you haven't seen it, you've got to look it up. Because all the people in the room, the producer, the director, the casting director, are the actual producer, director, casting director. But he walks in and they just nail what the experience is. There's a waiting room of everybody dressed identically. And but he walks into the room and he says, So, what do you want, guys? Just tell me what you want, because I can do this a million different ways. And it is, and that's your feeling as an actor. You know what, you know what I'm supposed to deliver. So just tell me, and then we both know and I'll I'll deliver it for you. And that's no, that and it's not that we don't know. I guess we don't know what we don't want. Or we know what we don't want. Yeah, it's not that we don't know the character, yeah, the character can be various things. So I think, you know, what I'd sort of love actors to appreciate, understand is that the kind of the casting process is character evolution. It's kind of, you know, the character is evolving and taking shape in our mind. You know, and then sort of, you know, the actor that you always had envisaged for that role sort of says, Oh no, I'm not interested or I'm not available, and you've got to rethink it. So you've got to be open to sort of, you know, to go in different territory. I'll tell you the story of casting the uh feature film The Interview with Hugo Weeding, Tony Martin. And what happened was is we auditioned so many people. And we asked Hugo if he would audition, and he said, No, no, no, I'm not interested in audition. His agent said, you know, but he's happy to be offered the role. It's like, okay, so he's interested. And after weeks of auditioning, and it's just we just didn't find the person that captured the enigmatic kind of, you know, duplicitous but outwardly trusted soul of that character, and Hugo came in and it was like new character, new film, new territory. He just he created a territory, and because let's face it, you we think there's a kind of, you know, we we go back as actors and we go and do more training to be better. This is what we're trying to do. We're gonna be better and better and better. If that was the case, if training was the be-all and end-all, if training was the be-all and end-all to sort of, you know, to booking a role, then why doesn't every NIDA graduate have the same career as Kate Blanchett or Hugo Weaving or kind of, you know, all those people that graduated from NIDER? Therefore, what I'm saying is, is Hugo and Kate and all that kind of thing, and all those other fabulous, fabulous graduates from NIDA. It's like what they've done is they've taken on the techniques, the training, and now a bit like I always use the analogy of a sporting star. A sporting star doesn't have to remind themselves of the technical skills required to do a golf swing or do a forehand in tennis or something like that. They just know where when they're in the middle of the game, at game time, that technique's there. I don't have to concentrate on it, I don't have to show it. What I have to use is my instinct of what the next moment is in this match, in this, and that's that's what I'd love actors to sort of how I'd love them to approach self-tapes, screen tests, auditions, whatever it is. Just allow instinct to be your to be your kind of your your flag, your your the kind of the thing that drives your choices, your instinct.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

That's a great point. Because I I know I know from my experience, sometimes I I end up getting in my own head space and thinking, wait a minute, what do they want to see? What what do they want? And I start to try and move towards what I think they want rather than listening and trusting my own my own instinct.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Take kind of inspiration from artists, painting, painting and things like that. And there they are, there, they're alone also. They're doing a self-tape when they when they go to their studio and they're standing in front of a canvas on an easel, it's just them. And it's the ones, and if you look at the kind of the great artists, the kind of great contemporary artists, they're not kind of you know creating an identity, creating a kind of a respect by sort of being right, by getting it right, by having that as their goal. It's kind of, you know, well, they're impressionist art. Be an impressionist actor. Make give us an impression of the character.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

So so do you think instinct is important when it comes to like how do you suggest actors inject life and and spontaneity into a take when they are just staring at the lens in their spare bedroom over and over again, getting frustrated perhaps?

SPEAKER_01 14:36

For a start, let's look at Robin Williams, Jim Carey, um actors like that, who are and I mean I'd say Sam Rockwell. I'm a big fan of Sam Rockwell, for instance. The thing is, in respect of those actors, they're not showing their technique, they're not showing their ability as an actor. They're find they're discovering territory that's totally different and unique. And I think part of the problem is in the audition process, I'm not talking about on set, I'm talking about the audition process. Yeah. The audition is when you kind of dissect the character and the character's kind of, you know, what backstory and childhood and upbringing and all that kind of thing. That's it that happens in rehearsal, that happens when you've read the full script, you know who's playing, your wife, your brother, your lover, your mother. Okay, you know that kind of territory. And now you can start to use those parameters, but for an audition, it's like you get stuck talking, you get stuck with a kind of you know, a solid relationship to the page, as many drama, as a lot of drama training teaches you to do. When you get stuck having the strongest relationship you have is with the page, because what do you do? You get out a highlighter pen and you say stu, you know, angrily or something like that, you know, get a no, don't get a highlighter pen, get a black, black texture and black it out. You know, all those, all those actors, those or drama teachers that say, what is the character feeling on that line? And then you go, well, you know, they're they're they're upset, right? Right upset in the margin. What? You're pre you've got a preordained feeling coming up to a moment in this character's life that is in five lines time. And what and what goes through your head, what goes through your head when you're delivering that that audition, it's kind of like you're getting ready to be upset because now you're visualizing the page because you've spent so much time looking at the page. You're not visualizing that character or that relationship or that location, that setting, that community. You're visualizing the page. And what do you so what do you see at that moment when you arrive at that moment in your audition?

SPEAKER_02 16:52

You remember one word upset because that's the line, that's the word you wrote in the is this is this what you mean when you often say the script isn't the priority, the character is?

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Because sometimes you you you have all the best intentions, but you just especially you're self-taping, and I'm over analytical anyway, so you just end up getting getting caught in your head, you have to step back and and realize and realign to what the priorities actually are, you know, what you are trying to achieve and how you're trying to get there and what what's worked for you in the past.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

But it's also, I think, you know, keep in mind when you're doing an audition, keep in mind the audience. And I'm not saying, oh, it's a big important casting director. I'm saying it's people who are looking at your performance, and you're the 28th person they've seen who are all the right gender, right age, right look, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, doing the same material again and again and again. Imagine this. Imagine being in a theatre, and you're sitting there in the theatre, and an actor comes out and stands front centre stage and delivers, delivers a scene, and we applaud the actor, leaves stage, next actor comes out, stands in exactly the same spot. Exactly the same relationship and eyeliner to the audience and delivers exactly the same material. When, as an audience member in that theatre, do you want to go, uh, we're right, mate, we've seen that one. Yeah, yeah, you can you can go now. And that's so I'm just asking, and this is this is a lot of the training that I have with actors because it is audition only. I'm I'm just talking about the audition. And I'm talking about the fact of sort of understand the relationship, reverse engineer your audition and sit in the seat of the audience, the casting director, what I call the audition audience. Because it's only going to be seen by two, three, four people, but each one of those has the ability, the opportunity, the potential to change your career. Yeah. But not if you deliver the same that we've just seen or are about to see. Or importantly, or importantly, the expectation of who you are, the relationship you have with that casting director. They know you always come here, you know. Oh, one of the interesting things I get, and more so to do with the room, if an actor came in and sort of, you know, a character was angry, how does an how do most actors display anger? Volume. They shut. And so often I have to go out and and if you if you're old enough to have sat in sat in a waiting room and hear the previous actor and they're shouting, you're going, Oh my god, I've got I've got to shout. I've got to shout. Where do I shout? I'll shout there and I shout. It could be so unsurprising. I have to go out to the waiting room and go, guys, don't shout. No shouting. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

I've seen shouting, I don't need to be anymore. Because it's the context too. I mean, if you're having an argument set in a cafe, in a busy cafe, you can be angry without any volume. You know, you're you're you're mindful of your surroundings. You're you're caught up in conveying what you need to affect the other character. And yeah, you just that's that's really interesting that you point that out.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Uh and and so often, so often with writers and scripts and especially if you're doing, you know, maybe daytime TV, soap opera, the description of the feeling of the character, the emotion of the character is simplistic, right? Literal and complete. So it's angry, it's sad, it's it's kind of, you know, it's words that sort of are really clearly concisely drawn. Why? Because the the script is actually not not a document for the actor, it's a document for the producer. Because the writer is writing something to impress a producer who'll say, Yeah, let's make this. And you walk out and try and do exactly what on what's on the page. So what I say to people is, you know, and when you're frustrated by sort of, you know, how what can I do with this? If it says the character's angry, go straight to the thesaurus and type angry in and get other words for anger. And now suddenly and it won't say shout. Um, you know, it it's it is is frustrated, perplexed, uh um and that's angry with somebody.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Impatient. And sometimes it's more real as you try and try and hide that, and that battle with trying to hide your anger sometimes resonates more than just standing there screaming at someone. Well, poor reader in this case. You you've mentioned in your past that your job is essentially saying no to 80% of people to get to the final dozen. It might have been a casting networks interview, I think. Anyway, I've done my research. Um yes, you have. I yes, I have okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

I have said that sometime in the past.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

So let's just say that your job is saying no to a lot of people. Um, what's the most common reason an otherwise talented actor gets a no from you?

SPEAKER_01 21:53

If the performance, the character you've delivered is predictable, is expected, because as I say, you're in this forum where we're Seeing so many people do exactly the same. So if you play the straight and narrow. And if that's the case, if that's the case, and we spoke earlier about you know visual casting, because so often the people who are getting those day player roles, those 50 worders, they look like a cop. They look like a doctor or a nurse, it's it's you know, they look like those things, and so therefore, and if it's if you now deliver the expected, the predictable, now what happens is you get to be Doctor Two. If you're getting a lot of roles or opportunities that is girlfriend, Doctor Two, COP 3, if you're getting those unidentified roles, that means you are being a kind of you know part of the scenery, part of the community, not driving the story, not driving the relationships. It's about and dare I say, it's the same journey that casting directors have been on and are on. Meaning 30 years ago a doctor was a white Anglo-Saxon male in their forties, full head of hair glasses, you know, that that was a doctor.

SPEAKER_03 23:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

And you know, there nothing else, nothing else was going to sort of be a doctor. Can you imagine if I did I presented a tape for a doctor and it was full of white Anglo-Saxon males in their forties, I'd never work again. I'd never work again. So what we are doing as casting directors is we are saying, how else can I kind of, you know, capture a doctor? Even if it is that kind of, you know, that day player doctor three kind of thing, it's still a case of sort of, you know, I need to I need to create separate identities for this community, for these different characters. I remember in casting Rompestompa, they came to me with three or four of the gang in place, and I said to Jeffrey, I said, um, Jeffrey Wright, the director, I said, you know, with this gang, they're all around about, including Russell Crowe and Daniel Pollock and Dan Wiley, you know, they're all really actors, all the same age. And I've got a feeling that sort of once we shave their head and turn them into skin heads, they're all going to look the same. So now the kind of the approach of the casting director is I said, we need to get some fat guys in there, we need to get some tall guys in there, some short guys, we need to sort of play with the kind of the visual, the visual statement of the community.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Certainly make it uh more realistic, and well, you know, it definitely worked in that case. Robert Stomper was amazing. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Yeah, uh it that film was the film I had the most knockbacks on. Really? People yeah, people would reasonably don't want to be part of it. Yeah. I'm I must admit, um uh I had a producer, an American producer, saying, So how would you describe your career? How would you describe your work? What sort of projects do you do? And I said, hmm. I don't know, I've never been asked that, never considered it. And I said, testosterone. If it's if it's if the film or the characters have got testosterone, then I'm your man. Um and and I did get a I did get a meeting for a very big film as a result of that. I blew the meeting. Um, but but it is, it's kind of like, you know, so romp, stompa, chopper, you know, those kinds of things that are kind of, you know, in your face. So and I think so I'll be be kind of you know circumspect here, and I think that's to do with me sort of, you know, seek seeking reality. Right. Seeking reality in the characters, in the performances. And so therefore, when you combine a kind of you know, um, a socially, socially kind of, you know, aggressive part of the community, and you make their performances real, then it's really it's got impact. Yeah, it's got impact.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Yeah, I think that's it. The more relatable, well, and that you know, the more real it looks, that's it, the more impactful it's going to be on the audience. Um people often see casting directors as gatekeepers, but you you you've described the role as a bridge between the director, producer, and the artist. And look, it's important to me because I'm busy trying to develop TV shows as a producer. In fact, when this episode is released, I would have just returned from Screen Forever. So good luck to future Max. But could can you talk to some of the challenges you faced from the production side that that the actors might not even appreciate, might not even know about?

SPEAKER_01 26:20

The big change I remember for Proof, which Russell Crowe won his first AFI award for, and Hugo Weaving. And interestingly enough, sorry, sorry, now I'm going to digress. Um, Proof actually came to me with a different producer, same writer-director, but it with a different producer 12 months earlier. Then came back to me with a new producer, and we had a cast in place for the original film. And the two roles we changed, we we kept Genevieve Pico as the female, but the two roles we changed were Hugo Weaving and um and the Russell Crowe role. We changed the actors in those roles. Wow. From the original choices, who were on hold, who were on hold, you know, but now we're making a different sort of film. The point is, is sort of when we cast Proof, when we cast Rhombusom, all the all those films, what happened was as the producer and director and myself, the casting director, would sit there in a room and make a choice, and that was the choice. That's who's doing the role. You would hope and think that kind of, you know, that that's how it works, that the creative team, the creative kind of heart of the film is being, they are the ones that sort of have the major say. No. And the problem is these days, the problem is that sort of, you know, it's how many, how many producer credits do we see on shows now?

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Yes, executive producers. Oh my God. It's a long list.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

It's a long list. But it's producer after producer after producer because the project went through their hands at some time, and when it then goes, you know, it goes up the tree. So you write a script, you get the you know, you go there to sort of you know try and sort of you know get people on board, and a kind of a production company comes on and says, Oh, Max, this is great, fantastic, we're gonna do this. But you've just you've just inherited two new producers. And their contract gives them a front of film credit, and also usually, even if all they are is a financier and they're good at spreadsheets, it gives them consultation and cast. So it's and I describe that as casting by committee. Yeah. So therefore, and it only takes. I was speaking to a friend of mine who's a kind of a producer, and you know, he when he's meeting people and sort of discussing ideas, um, he produces reality. But when he's discussing ideas, it only takes one person and he's meeting, you know, six, eight people. It only takes one person to say, oh no, I don't like that idea. Off the table, gone. How does that impact an actor in terms of casting by committee? It only takes one person to, oh no, no, no, no, no, I don't like him. They're off the list.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

And so I've described that process, that result, as that instead of getting the best actor for the role, and I don't mean best as in the best actor, but the best choice for that character, what we get is the least worst. The one that has the least number of criticisms. Right. Right. The least number of objections. Right. I'm just lucky that I've actually, you know, because I started at the ABC as the casting director, where the producers and directors did get choice and then left the then went freelance and filmmakers got their choice. Yeah. But lately it's kind of, you know, it's getting worse and worse.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

From my perspective, it does seem that it's getting more complicated where you've got more co-productions to be able to get the funding to make what they want properly, and then you've got different regions in that. You know, it might be Ireland and their Film Commission and Australia and Screen Australia, and everyone's wants a certain piece of it, um, and they're just so much involved from that, and so many more decision makers are suddenly invited to the party, and it can just add layers of complexity to get the right funding, you know, and then Yeah, and you got uh film stars or you know film actors moving into television a lot more and and not leaving a lot of space for other TV actors. Certainly not you know, by the time you're coming up for a a guestie or a fifty-worder, you know, you're competing with people who bring uh an audience with them almost. Um there's just so much complexity to it now, it just feels like it's a big it's a bigger world from the production side with so many more um committees involved.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Yeah. Yeah, that's let me go back to the analogy of an artist in their studio with a canvas and an easel. It's like you know, they are the ultimate creative contributor to that canvas. Yeah. Um and that, you know, so I think they've survived this kind of whole committee, but I think as actors or kind of you know in production, especially in big production, there's no end of the number of suits that get to get a say. And yes, when you start talking co-productions, it's kind of like, you know. I think they actually have a formula, it's kind of like, okay, Ireland gets 20%, and the UK gets X and so therefore it goes down to so that role will be cast from Ireland. That role will be crazy.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Yeah, it's um it can get complicated very quickly.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Well, it's kind of formulaic.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

It's kind of, you know, the kind of the creativity, the kind of the instinct of the filmmaker has has kind of been, you know, the poor director is the kind of, you know, the last one to know to have a a creative say.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

Yeah, or in television, you know, the director of episode two or you know, the director of episode three, or yeah, it's it's difficult. I get no say. You're a cog in the wheel. Yeah, that's challenging. That's challenging. I think it's it's really go delving more into the business side has certainly been something that I've loved doing, and it's it's been a lot more eye-opening. Is that is that something you'd recommend to help actors in their development um just just be more engaged in the industry at different levels and and be aware of what's going on?

SPEAKER_01 32:18

I'm talking about um the actor as an autonomous creative individual. And that's what I'd like to encourage and empower the actors to do. And the first thing to do is to do a simple online editing course. I don't know, I can't edit myself, so I don't I assume there's a simple one. Um the point being, and it's just for your demo reel. It's just for look at all those people on social media who've taken, who create a kind of a character and create an event, or in fact create a three-character scene and they play each character. And I'm just saying that's an exercise. What they've done is they've become a producer. They've produced, and that's what you are as a self-taper. Yeah. Because you have to do everything lighting, sound, camera, costume, etc. etc. etc. So, what should an actor where what is it? And a number of the people that we I've worked with, because we you can see that sort of I want to give actors the power to take ownership. And a number of people uh is um have gone off and made sort of you know web series, vertical dramas. Um, if you haven't interviewed Cam Fall, I'd suggest, you know, perhaps he's someone to speak to. Okay. Cam Fall is somebody I've known a long time, but sort of did the course and then made a kind of started with a stage play, swipe right. But anyway, he put it on there as a play, and it went so well that what he did was he then said, Okay, let's take that and make that a that a web series, and created a comedy web series where he was the writer and the producer, and he played 10, 15 different characters. He just played, which is what the the essence of the play was about, and ended up being nominated for for the Toronto Film Festival or something like that. I don't know which festival, but a Canadian Film Festival, best online comedy online series. That's an actor who is saying that it's the industry I'm love in love with.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

I'm not in love with standing in front of a camera and sort of having pins stuck in me and kind of all of that kind of thing. I'm not in love with the process of acting. I'm in love with the process of creating.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Creating characters. And there is a food chain that creates characters. It's like, you know, and everybody attributes the kind of the character to the writer. I don't know, the writer's the right person to own the character. I think letting the writer own the character is is kind of the wrong thing. I think the writer owns the plot. I think the writer owns the story. The actor owns the character. And if you start from, and you said how does an actor approach it, if you say you own the character, now you can create whatever you like. I did a film in LA. It was going to shoot in uh Mexico. So I was flown over to LA and spent four weeks casting in LA. Wonderful experience. But we auditioned Damian Lewis. This was back before he did Homeland. Right. And sort of, you know, so we chatted with the director and sort of, you know, this is what it was a scene set at a campsite. And of course, you know, so here's the camera and there's the stage. That's like so often I have actors, they'll come in and they'll sort of see there's a line on the floor where the lighting and sound is best, and they'll walk in and they'll put their toes on that spot because they know that's their duty, that's their responsibility, stand on the mark. What he did for this campsite was he headed to the far corner of the room and leant up against the back wall. Because he figured that's the kind of the way the relationship he'd have with that community, with that setting. That's the physical relationship he would have. That's his starting point. And sure, okay, he's going for a major role, so somebody's on camera and they're going to follow him, but it's that thinking. Yeah. It's that freedom. And so many actors don't know, don't understand you have freedom. Yeah. You don't know that there is room to move. And hey, you can you can cite all the examples of casting directors who say, What are you doing? You're not you're not standing on the mark. What are you doing? You're not facing the reader. What are you doing? You don't have a plain background. And those casting directors aren't really casting directors.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Okay. They're they're traffic cops. They direct traffic. Okay? And I'm not even going to mention names and sort of but we've all had that experience that we feel like we are there and being being subjugated to what they want. And that sits in the back of our mind that every casting director is like that.

unknown 36:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Not not the not the special one. So don't be too safe, don't be too obedient and and just follow the script, but uh make sure you own that character and help create that character.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

It's not just owning the character, it's owning the space.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

And the space and you know, I like to I'm following my own advice, but there'll be times where I actually sort of come right in and sort of talk to you, and I'm doing that because it's like I'm giving myself the freedom, the ownership of the frame. And in fact, so here's the mark. Yep. I'm standing in a medium close-up. Yep. Okay. And what we do, and we feel we can't move off that mark. It's almost like and you can say you ask about experienced actors. If you do an audition where you don't move your feet, you've got to move your feet. Because it's almost like your feet are staple gun to the floor because you're standing on the mark. What I want you to understand is there's real estate in that space between the mark and the back wall. There's also real estate, audition real estate between the mark and the camera. And each one of those, that freedom that you take allows you to create a different status, a different power of the character. But until you understand that you have that freedom, you'll never know to take it.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

That's right. It's like we see that line, we see the tape, and we go for it. We we love direction.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

I I was casting for so long at um we had offices just inside the gates at Fox Studios, and I think we over the years we replaced the tape about six times because it just got so worn out.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

After a while, I went, no, I quite like it being so worn. I can relate to that. It's just too easy to fall into a routine, and you just can't you can't afford to do that as an artist, you know. You you need to keep it fresh. And that's right. On the other side of it, when you're when you're watching the tapes, especially now with all the self-tapes, of course, how long does it actually take for you to know um if an actor's right? Um or or what can they do in those first ten seconds to really make Greg Apps lean in and pay attention? Um, he says leaning in.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Um I think the thing to understand is, you know, and you you've just asked the question, how do we know what to do to show what we that we're right for that role? That's not the goal. Yeah. The goal is to be remembered. The goal is to, I mean, does an artist stand in front of a canvas and paint something and go, wow, great, I can sell that for five grand? That's not the goal. The goal is I've done something that feeds my creative soul, pleases me creatively, but more important, makes a statement about who I am and what my work is that actually speaks to people in a general sense. How does that apply to auditions? The thing, the goal is to be remembered. The goal is to be remembered, not to book the job. And if you actually go, okay, I need to be remembered, because it's like if you walk in and, you know, and do everything wrong, it's like because what we're looking at when we look at the tape, sure, we've got this in our mind eye of sort of you know what we're looking for to cast the role. But somebody comes in and does something really different and individual, and it's like then we note that that's in our mind's eye. Well, let's face it, we've all we've all got that. Yeah. We've all got that impression.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

It's like, you know, um, I've from a long time ago I started quoting the story of sort of you're at a dinner party and there's this dickhead knob in a bloud sort of Hawaiian shirt and sort of, you know, just kind of an arrogant, narcissistic, you know. And you look at photographs of that night and bang, you go straight back to knob. You go straight back to that feeling. Yeah. Okay. That's not a bad thing because if I was impossible, if I'm auditioning for something, if I'm casting for something and I need a knob, he's the first person that comes to mind. 100%. So he went to that dinner party to be remembered.

SPEAKER_03 40:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

And that's what I'm asking, that's what I'm empowering actors to do. Is to serve, you know, to find the identity. Identities. Because it's not like, oh, what's my brand thinking it's kind of, you know, this little box that you sit in. No, no, no. It's it's kind of, you know, what sort of cop would you create? What sort of bureaucrat would you create? What kind of businessman would you create? Think of the kind of character that Matthew McConaughey created for Wolf of Wall Street.

unknown 41:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

One scene. One scene, but it would have been, hey Matthew, do you want to, or he would have read the script and gone, I want to play that role. And of course you go, you've got it. And he also says, and I want to do what I want to do. And you go, you got that too. It's like, but he took ownership.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

And that's the thinking that you have to do. You have to sort of, you know, find the territory of that character, that version of the character that makes you stand out. I had a had a one of our graduates say that he was auditioned for one of those 50-word or those small day player roles for a CIA guy. And he auditioned, and of course, a CIA guy's glasses, suit, slicked hair, all that kind of thing, you know, you know, severe. He played in bumbling. Imagine a kind of a CIA agent being cast as bumbling, and the answer is it wouldn't happen. But what did happen was he got a phone call straight away saying, please audition for this role. Because what he did was he left a memory. He cut through. He was memorable. And now he gets an opportunity in a bigger role because we've seen a different side of him. Whereas if he just went in there to deliver CIA guy, like the 40 other people we're seeing, he would have blended in.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

That's the problem. Sometimes actors see the role, they don't see the person, and they'll go in playing a cop, but this is a real person whose job just happens to be as a police officer. You have to take it a step back and remember that there's a person, there's a real character in there. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Yeah, another analogy I use. Imagine 12 art students, and they all go to you're in Sydney, so I can say this, but imagine they go to Lady Macquarie's chair and we say, paint the opera house and the harbour bridge. Okay. Twelve different students, all given the same subject matter, like an act like actors being given the same script. Who stands out? The one that sort of creates an individuality, isn't it? Yeah. It's not the one that gets the harbour bridge exactly right and gets the right number of rivets or that I, you know. It's here we are back at Impressionist Art. Now, in addition to I I am a little bit counter counterintuitive. Uh I do kind of, you know, and you and anybody listening can shoot you down in flames and say, Oh, so many casting directors disagree with you. Yep. Yep. That's my hope.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

In addition to being uh in addition to working as a casting director, you also run the audition technique. And so correct me if I'm wrong, but it's a business where you can offer courses. To help actors in their development, even one-on-one coaching.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Yes. It's a website that is, and it is purely because my experience and my understanding is not with script analysis or kind of, you know, or writer intent, character intent and all that kind of thing. My whole my whole journey, my whole career is all about there is a character who sits in this box. And if you stand on the mark, if you stand on the mark and face the person you're talking to and deliver the lines in a really well way, and you're loud on the angry parts, okay, that's predictable. That's expected. What I'm trying to do is to empower actors to sort of, you know, look outside the think outside the square. Think outside the kind of the journey, the the process. Don't because as I say, it's this relationship with the page that you think the page has all the answers. No, it only has opportunities, but you've got to take them.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

That's that's really interesting. I think it's a way to move from being trying to be just a better actor to really being a smarter one. And I think, yeah, the audition technique just it really helps appreciate the business side of it, the casting director side of it, of course, but but also yeah, how to be a smarter actor.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

Everything I know about auditioning, yeah, I've learnt from sort of you know watching watching an actor in the room or watching a self-tape and go, How did you do that? What did you do that made me pay attention? What did you how did you capture that? And that's that's my my my audition handbook is from all actors that I've seen, because I mean I've been auditioning since 1982. I started at the ABC. Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

So I've seen a few. A little bonus question, if you like, and you don't have to answer, but uh is there an actor that you passed on early in their career who went on to become like a big star, a massive star, and uh proving that you know even a casting legend can be surprised?

SPEAKER_01 46:06

Oh look, um it all comes down to getting the kind of the the right combination of things. You know, I mean, who could possibly predict that Kate Blanchett, there she is graduating from NIDA, like all the other actors, who could possibly say, wow, what a great actor. And yeah, yeah, yeah, let's cast her as a lead. But who could possibly predict that she'd have a career that is every actor's dream? You know, she gets to play other play all sorts of roles. But it and this is the thinking also that I want actors to do because for me, self-taping, self-taping is self-taping it when you self-tape, you're being tested. When you're auditioning, you're being tested. What sort of pressures? What's you know, because you've got to get it, well, the your first goal is to get it right, which is the wrong goal, but you've got to get it kind of, you know, gotta make sure that I get it. And what's the first thing that goes through your mind when you get a self-tape audition request? The deadline.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

I've got to upload by Friday at four o'clock. Your whole life is geared around Friday, four o'clock. Does your creativity flow between now and Friday, four o'clock? Um, or do you need something else? But the thing is, it's like could we predict that Kate Blanchett would have that kind of career? And that kind of career is driven by her experience of choosing characters, heading in a direction, wanting to curate a career. And using self-tapes, an actor can curate the kind of the character library, the character kind of, you know, uh types, the kind of the character brands that they create. Because it's your creative space. It's your art studio, it's your, you know, it's your, I mean, where does a writer go to create? Right here, right in front of a keyboard.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

So, in a way, self-taping is is given actors a bit more power to help create those different characters.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Yeah. So many actors don't see it, but that's what it's done.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Well, thank you for your time today, Greg. And I and all the actors listening really appreciate your advice. So pleasure. Thank you very much. Don't forget to follow and download and listen to more episodes. I'm Max Belmonte, and this is two unemployed actors.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Two unemployed actors.