Murdaugh Murders Case: Alex Murdaugh Gets New Trial

New Trial? Could he get out? Major decision looms in Alex Murdaugh murders case - we deep dive the case.

In this episode - I sit down with attorney Eric Bland, who played a key role in uncovering the full scope of Murdaugh’s financial crimes, to break down what happens next.

At the heart of the appeals are allegations involving potential jury interference by a former Clerk of Court Becky Hill  and claims that certain financial crimes evidence went well beyond scope during the trial.

Let me know what you think about the appeal:

Links:
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Transcript

0:25

Will disgraced South Carolina attorney turned family annihilator Alec Murdoch get a new trial? We have an educated guess. If I was a betting man, I I would think it's almost a 50- vote. And that is shocking. That's right. Alec Murdoch convicted of killing his wife Maggie and his son Paul, serving life sentences, two of them behind bars, plus several other years for his financial crimes that he plead guilty to. he might get a new trial. It's a case that I know pretty well. I covered his arraignment when he was arraigned on those murder charges in South Carolina. I was also in his jail cell when he was held in the courthouse in Colton County and I sat right behind Buster during that six week long trial. I watched him testify and dear old dad, I only saw snot, not not tears when he looked at the jury. And speaking of the jury, you know, they have come under fire since uh convicting this family annihilator of murdering his family in cold blood. They had to retain attorneys of their own. And I have that attorney on the program, Eric Bland. He's going to talk about this case. He's going to talk about the jurors give us an update on that and his educated guess and why he thinks Alec may or may not get a new trial. But first, do me a favor. Hit the like, hit the subscribe, and share this episode with a friend. Now, the case of Alec Murdoch. Here to help break it all down and the case against Alec Murdoch and what we're expecting, we have a very special guest, attorney Eric Bland, Bland Richtor Law Firm in Columbia, South Carolina. also the co-host of Cup of Justice podcast and the best-selling author of Anything But Bland. I'll have the information in my show notes. So, first off, great to see you. And when we're talking about this case that never ends, um, what are you expecting with the appeal? Well, the word on the street is it's coming sooner rather than later, which again is the second surprise that we all have had. The first surprise came when we listened to the oral arguments in February and how hard the five justices were against the state as opposed to the defense. That was the first surprise. We we thought that we're not going to get a decision until the summer. Uh that's what most of the lawyers forecasted based on past appellet experience that we have that usually it takes about 5 months 6 months to write an opinion especially uh of this nature. I fully expect that this is going to be a very very long opinion. Uh there could be some concurrences by justices and there may be a disscent. Um, but the word on the street that I'm hearing from a number of sources is that the decision could come sooner. Um, from what I thought, I believe that Alex had a better chance on the federal court level to get his case reversed based on that justice uh, former chief justice Jean Tol applied the wrong standard when determining juror interference. There are two standards, Matt. The federal standard says that all you have to show is juror interference that goes beyond uh normal discussions with jury about, you know, when do you want to have lunch, when do you want to uh go home, what the hours of court are going to be, we're going to stay over in a hotel. And the allegations were that the former clerk of court, Becky Hill, who has pleaded guilty to crimes that don't necessarily touch on the jury issues, but certainly taint her uh participation in the trial. All you have to show is that there was this juror interference and you get a new trial. Justice Gan Tol applied a different standard uh not the Remmer standard but a different standard that said you not only have to show the juror interference but you have to show that it altered the outcome of the trial. And we represented in my firm six of the jurors, Matt. And six of the jurors said not only did they not hear any interference or anything unoured by Becky Hill, but that their verdicts were the product of their own free will based on the evidence, based on the judge's charges, based on the testimony that was heard in court. And Justice Tol applied that standard and felt that 11 of the 12 jurors clearly said there was no interference and that there was nothing that influenced their verdict. There was a 12th verd 12th juror who said that she was uh influenced not only by Becky court but she felt pressure into a verdict and that she may have probably voted differently. However, all the jurors raised her hand and were pled after the verdict came in and said that the verdict was based on their own free will without duress or coercion. And Justice Tol felt that she was not credible because she gave conflicting affidavit. So we all thought as lawyers once this case got to the state supreme court, there's no way they're going to overrule a former chief justice of the Supreme Court and that Alex if he was going to get relief would get it when he did a habius corpus or a direct appeal in federal court. But after hearing those oral arguments and how hard the state not only had to answer on the juror interference issues, but those five justices were highly critical um of the of the trial judge for letting in the financial crime evidence, Matt. And if I was a betting man, I I would think it's almost a 5-0 vote that he's going to get a new trial or at least a 41 vote. Um, and that is shocking because we never saw that happening. Now, now you're going to ask me as a lawyer, do I agree that Alex should get a new trial? It's a hard question, but the answer is we have a sixth amendment right to a fair jury trial. It's a constitutional issue and that's why I think the federal standard may apply. And the reason we're all concerned about a new trial is our system works not only for the best of us, but it works for the worst of us. So, as a lawyer, I'm happy that the rule of law applies across the board. To a normal citizen, they may not understand that. Why does Alex get a new trial? There were 12 jurors that heard evidence. But the question is, was there that juror interference? So, the Supreme Court could do two things. They could, well, three things. They could affirm Justice Tol and then nothing happens. They could send it back to Justice Toll and tell her to apply the federal standard to see if there was really juror interference and that's all she should decide. Or they could say the trial was so infected by a multitude of juror issues and the financial crimes being led in that Alex was denied his right to a fair jury trial under the Sixth Amendment and he gets a new trial. For me, I think the financial crimes had a place in that trial. And I think that um the trial judge put barriers on that and limited in time and scope from May of 2021 when my client Tony Satderfield called him on the phone to the June 10th uh potential motion that Mark Tinsley was going to have in the Mallerie Beach case where they were going to hold Alex in contempt for failing to produce financial information. That was the state's justification for motive. Motive is not an element of murder. You do not have to prove motive. You just have to prove malice and a forethought. And the reason, Matt, is because motive is never pure. You know, for us, what you were going to kill your wife and kid because you were under some financial pressure. I mean, that's no reason to do it. But to a psychopath like Alex and a narcissist like Alex, it made all the perfect sense in the world because it diverted the attention away from all his theft if I kill Maggie and Paul. Well, you know, uh, jurors nowadays, you know, I talked to a lot of them after covering these trials across the country, and I sat during that trial in Colton County for weeks and weeks. I sat behind Buster. But, um, you know, jurors, in my opinion, they want uh what they see on television. They want a reason um to give their their conviction. I wanted to hear more of the evidence of the murder, and there's a lot missing with that, including Yes and no. I I I can disagree with you on that. Um I think that there was ample circumstantial evidence uh to prove um that Alex was guilty of murdering uh his wife and um his son. Now before I get into that, that's why the financial crimes that I participated in in getting him convicted of Gloria of stealing from Gloria Satderfield's estate and he got 27 years on the state level. And that's why it was important for me to get the FBI involved and him to be prosecuted on the federal level to get 40 years after the 27 years is done on the state court. So irrespective of what happens with the murder, even if it's retrieded and he's held uh not guilty or there's a hung jury, Alex is never getting another breath of fresh air. Matt, I was gonna ask you about that as long as he lives. That was so important to us. You know, I argued him not getting um a bond in October of 2021 in the Gloria Satderfield case, and he's never gotten out of jail ever since cuz Judge Newman agreed with me that bond should be denied in a financial crime case, which is extraordinary. So, for me, I always knew that I had to get him convicted of the financial crimes because at the time, he wasn't even charged with murder. Now, Paul and Maggie deserve justice. Justice always needs to be hunted uh to the end of the earth. Um but the real problem that we face is what will the next attorney general do? Let's see how these dominoes fall. If the Supreme Court offers a new tri orders a new trial, the next attorney general has to make the decision. Am I actually going to retry him? And I have gotten an answer from one of the candidates, Steven Goldfish, that he would retry him. But David Pasco, who is very very close with Dick Harput and switched parties from a Democrat to a Republican, it he has not answered that question. And it is possible that an attorney general who takes over for Allen Wilson is going to say, "I don't want to spend the state's money and resources. go through this eight-week trial when Alex is already in prison for the rest of his life and then another 40 years. But there's still no chance, even if he were found not guilty in a retrial, correct, that he would get out. He can't because in the 27 years, Matt, he has to do 23. He's 56 years old. So, he'll be in Genpop in a maximum security prison. The food isn't great. The healthcare isn't great. and it's dangerous. Let's assume he lives to 79. Then he's got to step out of prison and go right to federal court, federal prison, excuse me, and do 40 years. There's no federal parole. He'll end up doing 34. So, he's got to live to be about 120 to get that breath of fresh air, which won't happen. So, what's the goal for him then? Is it to stay in? He doesn't want to be a murderer, Matt. That's the whole goal for him and Harput and this tarnished Dick's legacy. Dick was a is a legendary in our state and deservedly so for a career. But Alex is willing to do his time as a thief, but he doesn't want to be the murderer of his wife and his child. You remember Judge Newman in the sentencing talked so uh in such dark terms about how they're going to visit him every day in his jail in his prison cell and what it's not going to be in a loving way that they're going to visit him is what uh Judge Newman said. Um have you talked to Alec? No, it it would be one of definitely on my bucket list. Uh I would absolutely love to sit down with him, not to talk about the murders uh so much, but just to what would make you as a lawyer cross that Rubicon to steal from your clients and then do it continuously from people that are in the worst uh shape of their lives, lo lose a loved one or they have catastrophic injuries that they need lifetime medical care. I'd want to know what what caused that switch to trip for you to do that. Um, now as far as the murder case goes, I believe I disagree with you. There's ample evidence that he did this. You know, two shooters. Okay. What executioners do you know, Matt, that are going to come to a southern property in the dark and night and walk on a property without their own guns? And the plan's going to be I'm going to break into the house and steal the owner's guns and then kill the wife and son with the owner's guns. That well the house was unlocked number one and he was also involved in some sort of weird drug world and then there was that weird um hello plan like the airplane like landing spot on his property. Like there's something going on that we don't know about. And okay, but also I'm going to give you some examples. In 102 jail house phone calls, he never once said I'm innocent. He never once said, "What do you what do what is being done to get me out of here? What's being done to find the real killers?" He talked about football, hunting, Gamecocks, law school with Buster. Um when when the police came at

10: 15:08

00 at night, his clothes were perfectly clean. Now, Matt, I know you and you know me. If our loved ones had just been shot, we would have grabbed them and screamed to the heavens,"Please, what happened?" We would have blood on us. we would have dirt on us. We would not be pristine clean. Um the first phone call I would have made would have left the scene cuz he went to his mom's house. The other thing is I would have called Buster immediately, not 42 minutes later. And I would have said, "Buster, do not come home. There's killers out there that are trying to kill us. They just killed Mom and Paul. Go to the police station." I wouldn't have told Buster, "Come on home, son. I need you." Um I wouldn't have lied. I'm not saying that he's innocent. I'm just saying that we don't have all the evidence and I wanted to hear more. I wanted to hear more foundation more evidence for the murder. I felt that the trial was mainly focused on him being a liar and a cheat. Okay. But what more would you want? I mean, he he lied about the video. The the single biggest piece of evidence was he was there a minute and a half before their uh stated time of death. and he lied to his son, his only living child that lost his mother and brother for two years. He lied to the police. Um it for me, you know, he texted people uh on the

text stream after 10: 16:35

00 at night before he called Buster. He did an internet search. It just it's all strange. The whole thing with Miss Shelly of, oh, I was there for 20 minutes. No, you weren't, Alex. you were there for 10 minutes and uh I you're getting married. I can help out with your wedding and all the different stuff. Uh your daughter's wedding or it was her wedding. So, well, he was also on drugs, but he wasn't an opioid addict like Dick said. He never got arrested for DUI. He never missed court. He wasn't reported to the bar by clients uh that he was slurring his speech. Nobody uh forced him into rehab. I believe he had an opioid problem, Matt, but not to the level that Dick Harputin was trying to sell to the public. And that brings me back to where is the money because there is no way in heck that he used that amount of drugs to equal the millions and millions that he stole. And we don't know where it is. Well, I think he was being possibly blackmailed. Um, I also believe that there is money out there. I think uh Miselle, which is 2,800 acres, of which 1,400 is in swamp land. I think the money is hidden either on the property or with uh uh people that he did business with or over uh on an island somewhere. I do think that there is money still there. Me, too. And I wonder I wonder who knows about it. I agree with you 1,000% on that. And I know that we're getting into a lot of like whatifs and conspiracy theories with this case, but I think that that's why it was considered the trial of the century because of the players and who they were, who they were supposed to be, the masks that they were wearing, and the mystery still around this and how people interpret the evidence. But um when we're talking about the two appeals, uh one of them really focuses on the court of clerk Becky Hill um who pleaded guilty to and I think I got this right, perjury, obstruction of justice, and misconduct. And now that's part of the record for uh that part of the appeal. So how But it wasn't a plead pleading of guilt for interfering with the jury. Right. Right. But you know, she's the whole reason why we had that one day hearing with Judge Tol two days. Well, uh, when they brought him in and they were testifying with I thought that there was going to be a decision that day. Yeah, she Well, she she um she did make her decision from the bench. Um, but the issue is, look, we were we were very shocked from the lawyer standpoint of how hard the Supreme Court criticized Justice Tol and how hard they went at uh Judge Newman. Um, and maybe that's a a feeling that the justices have when chief when Justice Tol was a chief justice. I don't know. But I did not see that coming, Matt, that they would fantastic. I really enjoyed being in her courtroom. So did I. over that time when the and I was highly critical of her Matt before and I went inside her um uh chambers to ask to speak to her. I was very critical of her when she was appointed because of um u you know reputation and some of the past dealings I had with her. But I went in and I apologized to her in chambers and said I was wrong. you you you did an amazing job presiding over this and uh you gave everybody a fair shot and uh she thanked me for it and forgave me for being critical of her. Well, she seems like a really cool person just outside of the robe and Oh yeah, she's a judge's she's a judge's judge. You better be prepared when you walk in her courtroom, Matt. You better be prepared. I love her line. Um Becky Hill was attracted by the siren call of celebrity. I can't tell you how many times I used that when I was reporting uh from from the hearing. Oh, yeah. She was she's quite something. And I really wish that I know we couldn't show the jurors, but I really wish that uh the the viewers could have seen more from that hearing. There was so many nuances of things that were happening and so many interesting people in the gallery that had a stake in this from the very beginning. Well, I'll tell you how how reasonable she was. One of my clients um was going away the the week of the Monday that she had the big hearing and was going to have to miss her cruise. And Justice Tol said, "We're going to start this hearing on the previous Friday so that she could testify and still go away on her cruise." She didn't have to do that. She could have just told me, "I'm sorry, Mr. Bland. Your client's just going to have to miss the cruise." But she she marshaled all the resources. Can you imagine that? of court administration and bail us and everything. And we started the hearing in January of 202 uh 4 in on a Friday and it finished on a Monday. Well, um how are your clients um doing? They're they're all good. I we ended up representing six of the victims of Alex and we recovered over $14 million for all the victims, 9.2 million for the Satderfields. um some that uh Alex had missed the statute of limitations on and we recovered from an insurance company and the the jurors have gone on with their life. I keep in touch with about two of them and uh you know one of the things Matt that we have to be careful in our justice system is jurors render a verdict then they go out in the world and they hear from the Matt Johnson's and the Eric Blands and their family and then they start to question hm should I have made the right decision? Did I make the right decision? Should I change? And we don't want them to be salted with, you know, legal analysts like me and journalists like you because they could change their mind. That's why it's so important that when they render their verdict, do they get pulled and and do they have to affirm that the verdict is their own free will without duress or coercion? Yeah. you know, and uh not to get too much off topic, but I I found that to be a problem with the first Karen Reed trial that I covered when they weren't really pulled in public and then all of that wasn't really made clear. Um, okay. So, and first off, uh, so the jurors, they're good. Thank you for that update. How how are the the Satderfield boys? They're great. Um, they're they they they are enjoying life. They're workers. they they didn't get their money and just beat, you know, go poolside. Uh they're they're very um uh smart with their money. It's going to last them hopefully for the rest of their lives. Um but, you know, they're they miss their mother. Um they they certainly didn't inject themselves in this and um they're very private. But here's the most amazing thing, Matt. They forgive Alex. The entire family forgives Alex. They don't have bare malice towards them. Look, I'm an I'm Jewish. I'm an Old Testament guy. I mean, I would never be in that position that they are, but it's a a testament to their faith in Christianity that they have forgiven him and they've moved on. They are really um special people. I've had the honor of being in their presence um during the testimony and um they're just really standup men and um and I wish them all the best. Uh, but I know that a lot of people wondering about them. And you know, I still have questions about how she died though. I know that we all, you know, I I have to believe that Alex was telling the truth, but he's the only one that has repeated that it was the dogs. Maggie and Paul that were witnesses aren't with us anymore. And so, it's only Alex who who said that, you know, when he reached down and he whispered in the Gloria, "What happened? What happened?" and she said, "You know, the dogs, um, remember if it wasn't the dogs, um, just because you fall on somebody's steps doesn't mean they have liability. You have to show that the steps were defective, that maybe they weren't built according to code or there was ice on them or that the dogs caused the fall. But if I'm on your property, Matt, and I just fall on your steps and everything's fine the way they were constructed, my my own negligence doesn't mean that you're liable. But Alex came up with this scheme, I believe, because if you look at his income tax returns, his income really was dropping off from 20134. He was banging millions and millions in 2009 and 10 when he stole from the Piknney and the Plyer sisters. my other clients. Um, but towards 2018, his income dropped dramatically. And you know, he's got that big monkey eating every month. Whether it's Miselle, it's the airplanes, it's the going to the islands or being a Gamecock fan. And you know, in in the Hulu series, he spent $63,000 in two days at Atlantis. That's amazing, you know. So, um, I hear you. I do. I think, you know, is there a question on how she died? People are asking it, but I choose to believe he was being honest. It was the dogs and that's why we were able to recover the insurance money. Yeah. And I want to believe that as well. But again, um the two people that were there, as you mentioned, are dead because they were murdered by Alec. And um you know, their 911 call was really strange. Oh yeah. Paul was abusive. Maggie was indifferent. Yeah. And I just wonder with that troubled troubled kid that really exposed Alec and the whole family and what was going on, you know, with the boat crash. I mean, he was so troubled that never really went to trial. He never paid justice himself. So, you know, I mean, what else was he capable of is Well, I think, you know, I blame the parents um getting to understand Paul. He was an unlikable kid uh to some. He was overindulged and undisiplined. And that's the f fault of the parents. They they drank in front of him. They let him drink in front of them. Uh you know, he had the rollover accident when he was 17 and they swept it under the rug. He he knew he was basically bulletproof because of his father and the grandfather's con, you know, uh prominence. Um, but he was just a a young kid. I I don't I don't write a book on somebody and close the chapters when they're 22 years old. They have the rest of their life to to write the ship. But I do blame Alex uh for how they raised um Paul and Gloria did her best. He was very close to Gloria, my client Gloria Satderfield. But I do think that um Alex had a lot of um hostile feelings towards Paul because without the boating accident, none of this comes to light. None of the financial crimes comes to light. And when Paul had the uh the accident and killed Mallerie, well, Mallerie died in the process, it brought journalists like you and my co-host Mandy Matney to go investigate these people. And I think Alex had a lot of resentment for that. I also think that Alex had mercy for Paul in the sense that he knew he was going to get prison time for this death. You know, there were too many eyes on it. This wasn't going to get swept under the rug. The the Mothers Against Drunk Driving and all the journalists like you, Paul was going to get seven to 10 years, maybe even a little more for this. And Alex knew that he would never survive in maximum security prison. Just look at your picture right now. Look at the size of Alex. Former football player. He's tough as nails. He He's fought when he was in Genpop before he's now in solitary confinement at Bro River Road. But look at Paul. He's a small kid and he's a hotthead. And Alex knows it isn't going to be easy for him on the inside. if he got sentenced to 10 years, it would be very rough for Paul. And so, there is a theory out there that Alex uh killed Paul because he didn't want him ever to go to prison. Maybe he planned on killing himself as well and he chickenened out. That's a good point. It's a good point that I never heard that. I just think he's too much of a narcissist to do it, right? Yes. Agreed. So, uh, it was called the trial of the century. Six weeks, we were both there together. Um, what does season two look like, so to speak? Well, I think the trial will be different if there is going to be a trial. The question is going to be, does the Supreme Court cut the financial crime uh, introduction and so then it's going to be a pure murder trial and they're going to have to come up with a new motive. Um, but again, I think circumstantially there is enough to commit for murder, convict. Did I think during the first trial he was going to get convicted? No. I thought there was going to be a hung I thought there was going to be a hung jury. I never I never can forecast a not-uilty verdict. It it something I can't see on the landscape, but I definitely can see a hung jury because they're going to be a juror like you to say, "I need more murder evidence." Mhm. Yeah. I need more murder evidence. Um and maybe we'll get that with this. I think that they still bring in the money motive, but they um the scope is less or smaller. But uh does he take the stand? No. But now the real evidentary issue is can they use his testimony against him because he already testified under oath. That's the that's always the fear I have as a lawyer putting my client on the stand in a criminal case because you wave your fifth amendment rights and now these are admissions. And so, um, I I I haven't researched it yet on how deep they can go into his prior, uh, sworn testimony, but I think it's going to be an issue. Yeah. And to answer the other question that I get a lot, um, no, they were not tears. Um, it was a bunch of snot coming out of his nose that he was Look at those eyes. Go back to that previous photograph. He's got shark eyes. I've never seen darker eyes on a man than his. Well, it was also weird lighting in there, too. It was like a what, 200, 300 year old building? Beautiful, but it was weird. Yep. Yeah. Do they get a change of venue if you get a new trial? And the answer is it does. You could go to England and you still people know about it. I mean, I was uh in September of 2023, I went over to England, golf with some putties, and I was walking and one of the caddies asked me, "What do you do for a living?" I said, "I'm a lawyer. Where are you from, South Carolina?" And he said, "Oh, isn't that where the Murdoch case was uh uh from?" And I said, "Yeah, I happen to be involved in the guy looked at me and said, "That's right. I saw you on TV." I mean, it was universal. It was the trial of the century. it in our state. It It used to be Susan Smith in the '9s. She drove her kids into a lake and then blamed it on an African-American. Then it was Dylan Roof who killed the the Emanuel Nine at the Emanuel Church in Charleston. He was a white supremist. Um, but this case is so far greater. I mean, you know, it's a John Gisham non-fiction book. John doesn't have to come here and write fiction. He just comes here and reports on it like you're doing. You got the dynasty of a family that's been in charge of the solicitor's office for a hundred years. You have a law firm that uh prints literally prints money, Matt, that it was voted Hampton County the third worst judicial hell hole in the country by the American Bar Magazine, ABA, American Bar Association in 2005 because of the just outlandish verdicts and settlements that the Murd gets from those jurors and in that county. Wasn't he president or something? Uh he was president of the trial lawyers association in South Carolina. Um but think about it, the the the the family controls the criminal justice system in Hampton County and the civil justice system. When I called for the 911 tape, a lady answered the phone. Her name was Murdall. When I had to subpoena a probate file from the probate court, a Murdall answered the phone. So they they owned it. They controlled it. What did you think of the the Hulu series? Well, um I was upset that I wasn't in it, but no, I'm only kidding. But yeah, they didn't mention me. It was the only series that I I I wasn't mentioning and I thought I played that was strange too. you were I played a very, you know, important role obviously because I represented six of the victims and six of the jurors and it was my partner and I getting sled involved that got the Gloria Satderfield criminal charges in the first place. Um, but I thought it was well done. I thought they uh Jason Clark was insanely good and so was Patricia. Um, and I thought the guy that the kid that played Paul did a great job. Um, you know, there was poetic license. Gloria was not alive at the time of the boat crash, but the way they wrote this story, she was still alive. She had died, Matt, a whole year before the boat crash, but I guess they took poetic license and they wanted her to have a larger role than she did. Well, she had a big role in that life just in general and raising those boys. She didn't die in vain. No, she died for a purpose. She was a beautiful person. Um, so how do we get a hold of you? Uh, you could, uh, come to my law firm at bl ww.blamritor.com. You could call me on the phone at 803256-9664. I have a podcast that I do, uh, cup of justice. Um, I have a book like you mentioned in the beginning, Anything But Bland, which talk, thank you so much, which talks about, you know, my early life of overcoming obstacles, some of the famous cases I had besides Alex Myrtle. I was involved with the James Brown death, and I represented Ric Flair, my childhood wrestling hero, and I was involved in the Hunley submarine case. But the last third of the book is about Alex Murdo and how fascinating uh the civil and criminal trial um trials, the civil matters in the criminal trial was. It was just uh it's a once in a-lifetime uh opportunity and I'm grateful that I was able to be at the right place at the right time and answer the phone call when Mark Tinsley called me on the phone and asked if I wanted to represent Gloria Satderfield. But, you know, just like you do, we we we're ready to answer the phone. We're ready because we prepare ourselves and we live a life that is going to put us in the thick of the bramble when it's time. Well, you know, this has been a pleasure. Thank you. And uh hopefully we get some answers soon and then maybe you can come back and talk about your opinion about it all. Anytime you want to have me on, I'm I'm there for you. The one thing that we do know as we wait for the decision from the high court is that this guy is never getting out. He has already plead guilty to the financial crimes which puts him away for the rest of his life. But what does a new trial look like, right? Does he even take the stand? Does he testify or is his words from the first trial read in court and used against him? Does Buster testify? Do we hear from all of the same players? Do they allow in the money motive? And that was several weeks of testimony. Is there something new with new technology with the vehicle data? Do they find the guns? There's a lot of questions as to what that trial might look like. Let me know in the comments below. But for now, I'll keep you posted on the case. Take care of yourself. We'll see you next time.