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Deconstructing the world of influencer marketing: Lessons for public affairs campaigns
As policy professionals and corporate communicators aim to tap into new markets and expand their reach, they're increasingly looking to tap into the influencer landscape. But this brings with it a host of questions: How should brands and issue advocacy campaigns leverage influencers? What are the risks? Can audiences trust the authenticity of influences? And, what's next for influencer culture?
Join us for this week's episode of What's at Stake, as Penta Partner Andrea Christianson chats with fellow Penta Partner Lauren Wolfson and D.C.-based influencer Sarah Phillips of 52 Thursdays, a popular style and fitness channel. Lauren offers insights on how brands can harness the power of influencer culture, and Sarah shares anecdotes from her decade-long experience in the influencer space. From understanding how to vet influencers, to exploring the phenomenon of "de-influencing," you won't want to miss this episode.
Welcome to another episode of what's At Stake, a PENTA podcast. As policy professionals and corporate communicators aim to tap into new markets and expand their reach, they're increasingly looking to use the influencer landscape. How should brands and issue advocacy campaigns leverage influencers? What are the risks? How can audiences trust the authenticity of influencers and what's next in influencer culture?
Speaker 1:I'm your host, andrea Christensen, a partner of PENTA, and here today to help answer these questions are two experts on the topic. The first is my fellow partner, lauren Wolfson, based in New York City, who has pioneered a lot of our social listening work to help pinpoint emerging trends for different brands. The second is a good friend of mine and DC area influencer, sarah Phillips. Sarah runs the popular style and fitness blog 52 Thursdays and has been in the game for over 10 years. Lauren, sarah, thanks for joining me on the podcast today. Thanks for having us. Thank you for having us. Awesome. Okay, so to kick us off, sarah, why don't you tell us a little bit about your experience in the influencer space and how it's evolved over the past decade?
Speaker 2:Well, first off, thank you guys so much for having me. I feel very honored that you want my input on the topic of influencing, and so our blog started a little over 10 years ago and you're probably wondering why we got the name 52 Thursdays. We actually started the blog. I started with a sorority sister and we would have wine nights on Thursday nights, and so we decided to kind of carry that over to our blog and really post everything on Thursdays, all Thursday kind of themed, and it was really just like a documentation of what we were doing, outfits we were wearing and different like DIY projects we were doing.
Speaker 2:At the time we had no idea what we were signing up for, what we were getting ourselves into. At that moment we influencers weren't even a thing. They were on the radar. Really it was blogs. There were a few really big bloggers at the time and we decided to kind of jump in and just see where it went. And 10 years later, here we are still kicking. The whole scene looks a little bit different, but we're still having a lot of fun in the space and it's definitely changed.
Speaker 1:Well, what you say is one thing that has changed the most in the past 10 years. So if you started doing kind of blogging and now you're a mom almost a mom up too, and I think that you still get contacted to be a part of campaigns or to talk about products or review products, how does that work and what's the biggest thing that's shifted on that front?
Speaker 2:You know, I think that a lot has changed just because there's so many different influencers and different kinds of influencers in the market. Now there's the micro influencers, the macro influencer, so there's really a lot of different people to select from when you're choosing a campaign. And for us we started as fashion and fitness and now we're both moms. So we've evolved as well in kind of changing our content and I feel like our followers have also grown as well. So I think it lends well to what we're doing now, since everyone's kind of been growing with us.
Speaker 2:We have a lot of mom followers, so we end up seeing a lot of mom partnerships and it's just evolving kind of with us and I think with the whole market. It's evolving as well with brands kind of adapting and really seeing the advantage of working with an influencer and getting their name out there in different ways that they maybe wouldn't be able to before with just TV or print advertising. This is a way to really get in front of an audience in an authentic way. Hopefully and I know we're going to kind of touch on that but you really have to kind of pick the right people that you work with. And same with an influencer, we have to pick the right brands we work with too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much. So, lauren, shifting gears a little bit, so why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about the work that you've done and the data that you're looking at and what we've seen for some of our clients who are leveraging influencers in our own work today?
Speaker 3:Yeah, great. So the work that we do here is really to help our clients get momentum, and it can be a momentum for their brand, it can be momentum for new audiences, or it can be for an issue that they care about and a topic that they're really passionate about. And so, to do that, we have to understand a lot of things. I think we have to understand what the brands and values are, what their goals are, what they're looking to do. We have to understand the audiences and who they're trying to reach. We have to understand the competitive landscape and what's going to be different, what's going to be new, and we also have to understand what's happening in broader culture what are the trends, what are the movements, what are the issues, and a lot of the work that we do is really using insights, using data, to understand each of those things, to be able to give a full picture of what the challenge is. What does the brand, what do our clients really need to overcome and do, and how do you actually develop a strategy that is going to be the most effective. And so, as we think about you, know how brands are activating, how companies are activating, how communicating. Obviously, social media and partnerships are a huge, huge component of that, and so, as we start to think about the role that influencer marketing plays and partnering with influencers or collaborators or different people or companies outside of the brand, it is such an important role to tell you know, build credibility, to create awareness, to drive momentum with new audiences, maybe that you didn't necessarily have activated before.
Speaker 3:I think what we're seeing in a lot of the work that we do to Sarah's point, is that there is has been so much change with what a genuine partnership looks like between a brand and an influencer, even to the point that, because there is such an explosion of influencers and you know, sarah has really built a strong kind of as an OG, blogger, influencer, built a really strong business but there's a lot of people that are saying they're influencers today and the pendulum has potentially swung to the other side, and so it's you know we see a couple of things happening here, one which it's you know if previously, partnering with influencers has been about awareness, around credibility, around reaching new audiences, now there's much more specific goals of what the role of an influencer can do. Is it about activating a niche community on TikTok? Who are, you know, using your brand and developing, doing interesting things that you never even knew existed or thought of. Is it about partnering with someone to communicate values? Is it about education? So, really thinking about those specific goals and what you're trying to achieve, and I think the last thing I'll say is that you know where it's going.
Speaker 3:Next is, given some, that the goals of brands are becoming more specific. The way that we're seeing influencers or partners defining themselves are very different. Being a brand educator, you know. Being an activist, being a expert, there are a lot of different words and identities that we see influencers using to talk about themselves. As a way to meet brands where they are being more specific, create those more genuine partnerships and connections.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I want to go dive deeper on that, on the authenticity point that Sarah raised too, and the micro influencers versus macro influencers. And, sarah, I'd be curious how you've seen the types of brands that are reaching out to you change over time, or the types of partnerships you are agreeing to enter into. How do you think about whether you can authentically you know advocate or talk about a product or promote a product when that kind of comes in your inbox or across your inbox?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we get tons of emails every day and we really have to filter through them, because there is a lot of junk and there are a lot of noise and you really have to find something that you know resonates with you and at least for us, like we want to make sure that this fits with our brand and our followers will connect with it. It's a huge miss for us to just take on a partnership, even if they're paying us thousands and thousands of dollars but it doesn't seem authentic, because then we will lose the respect and loyalty of our followers and that, you know, is worth so much that we need that. So you know we really really are careful about the partnerships we take on. We make sure that you know they are aligned with our values that our followers will find it interesting to learn more about, and it's something that I would use or already am using in my daily life.
Speaker 2:Another thing we like to do is test out. If it's a product, I like to test it out first, make sure I actually love it, and then I can endorse it and say, hey, yes, I think you guys should try this too. So it really has to be authentic, because I think people can see right through it, especially now they're like very conscious of it. They see a lot of you know, influencers just like hustling products and constantly doing hauls and just it's all day, every day, and it's like what do you trust? You know, like, do I need to buy 10,000 shirts from Amazon? No, so you know, you really have to be careful on both ends that the brand and the influencer to make sure it's a really good fit and you're working with, you know, a legit company.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that is such an important point as we sort of shift into how sort of public affairs campaigns or issue advocacy efforts can think about leveraging influencers and the time and energy that should be invested in trying to find the right partners, because the influencers themselves, like you, are taking the time to actively question, like does this fit with my values and my brand?
Speaker 1:And so when someone reaches out to you, I imagine with something that doesn't fit your values and brands at all, like that is a waste of their time and a waste of your time. And so you know, I think in DC a lot of times we're a little bit behind the ball. But we've seen an uptick anecdotally in our work with some clients thinking about how can we partner with different influencers or different influencers of influencers, because influencer in DC often means a little bit of a different thing. But how can we leverage that more? How can we tap into something that brands and marketing campaigns have been using for a long time? So, lauren, I'd be curious here for your perspective on how do you think about some of the potential benefits and pitfalls of engaging influencers for public policy campaigns, whether that's immigration, reform or electric vehicle adoption or trade or any of those.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think it all comes down to expertise and shared values, especially in the arena of public affairs, because, to speak about you know you can think about these creators, influencers, experts as almost surrogates, like you would a political campaign, right, like if you think about a traditional campaign. There's surrogates, people spreading your message, building credibility, connecting with stakeholders in new ways. The same thing is true here in the marketing world and can be applied to public affairs and policy. So I think the first component is shared values. Does the client or the coalition or the campaign have shared values with the person that the initiative is looking to partner with? Do they have the same passion that we have about the issue? Do they have something new to say or something bring to the table? And then I think the second is our own expertise. Do we trust them to, and is there mutual trust to support each other on the messages we're trying to and the goals of what we're trying to accomplish?
Speaker 3:The way that we play a role and the way that we help kind of bridge these connections and make sure the partnership is right is through something that we call vetting, which is a pretty common term, but a lot of it is understanding the shared values and understanding when a client is reaching out to different influencers or thinking about different collaborators, artists, creators, whatever the word is.
Speaker 3:What are their values that we can tell from the past posts they've done or TikToks they've created or blog posts they've written?
Speaker 3:Is there anything that they've done that could be potentially in conflict with the values of our clients? And I think to Sarah's point, it's so easy to kind of sniff that out and people can tell when there's that genuine connection and ultimately, making sure that there's nothing that's going to be a reputational risk. But also understanding, given the objectives of the client and given where we can see this person's passions and what excites them. How do you figure out the best path forward to make this partnership have the maximum impact, based on what you know about each party? And so that's really the lens that we look at when we do our vetting, when we're looking for opportunities. And I think the last angle is understanding the cultural movements, momentum issues, trends that, as part of this relationship, both parties can tap into to get the most attention, to accomplish the goals the most effectively and spread awareness of the issue. Drive, action, drive, whatever it is that we're looking to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great. And then one last question, and then we'll take a quick break. And do you think and this is for both of you do you think that people would be okay if they knew that someone was being paid to advocate for an issue versus a product?
Speaker 2:I think that's a little bit different. I think a product you can really imagine yourself using it and feeling it. It's not as big as a decision, as a policy or voting a certain way, and I think you really have to be careful about who you're hiring to relay that message. You have to make sure they have the same values and that person really has to be on board with that policy as well. So I think it's very different. I think we're probably going to see more of it, but it's just a little bit more tricky. I think when you're finding that influence or you really have to vet them very well, it's going to be a different process than hiring somebody to promote a moisturizer.
Speaker 3:I think it's also much more personal for the creator or the advocate, anyone that it were activists like, whoever you're looking at, it's going to be a personal decision to engage on the issue. I think that we've seen different. It's probably also a different arrangement or relationship of how to engage them. We've seen a lot more brands and companies when they're advocating on issues, doing things that aren't paid, but bringing different people, different platforms, into their orbit, into their world, and educating them, giving them a reason to feel passionate about specifically the organization or the issue at hand, and it being a bit more organic than something that is a bit more product driven. Obviously, if there's requires deeper work or deeper engagement or something more ongoing, it looks different but there are. Because you're talking about passions and issues and share values. There are ways to think about bringing in people who have a career in you know, communicating with audiences and having a platform that can be really effective or issues at hand, bringing them into your network and building a relationship before something more official is done.
Speaker 1:Awesome Thanks. So we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we will talk about where influencing is headed next.
Speaker 4:PENTA is the world's first comprehensive stakeholder solutions firm. We are a one stop shop for the intelligence and strategy leaders need to assess a company's reputation and make decisions that improve their positioning as executives in the C-suite must account for a growing set of engaged stakeholders, all with distinct, fast changing demands. Penta provides real time intelligence and strategy solutions. We work with clients solving complex global challenges across a variety of industries. Our clients span technology, financial services, energy, healthcare and more. To learn more about how PENTA can support your company, check out our website at PENTAGroupco, our Twitter at PENTAGRP or find us on LinkedIn at PENTAGroup.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to what's At Stake, a PENTA podcast. We're going to dive back in with Lauren and Sarah. Lauren, you've been looking at the data. Can you explain where the influencer marketing landscape is headed next?
Speaker 3:Yes, I think we're at a really important moment in influencer marketing. I think that there is going to be a redefinition of what good influencer marketing looks like. As I mentioned earlier, we see a lot in the data that perhaps the pendulum on influencer marketing has swung too far. We're seeing trends like de-influencing, where creators are talking about don't use this product because of overconsumption. We are seeing a lot of artists being called out for things that aren't authentic to who they are and just being overly commercial. I think if we are in a place where anyone can be a great influencer, anyone can build a platform, the pendulum is going to swing the other way. There's going to be a redefinition, a new equation for what trust looks like. I think some of the things that we're starting to see around that are going from very curated, perfect images to being more unfiltered pun intended and being about acceptance of who they are and who you are the real person this idea of acceptance is going to be a big theme of 2024.
Speaker 3:We are going to a place of interacting and engaging with influencers based on the role they want to play. Are they an activist? Are they an educator for brands? Are they just really passionate about the topic? Are they just an expert or a hobbyist on something that makes sense, being mindful of the role that they play, versus just this broad term?
Speaker 3:I think the other component that we see brands doing more and more is leveraging a lot of the organic chatter we call it UGC, user generated content to tap into cultural trends and movements very organically. Crox, who's one of our clients, does a really good job of this Airbnb and understanding the different trends in travel and how to engage people where they are. The more that companies can understand what's happening organically and being quick and nimble to find it, jump in partner with the right person who's doing it, the more that we're going to see influencer marketing be effective. I do think it goes back to thinking about what the new trust equation looks like and what it means for your brand, for your issue, for your campaign, whatever it is, and activating it in a way that's very, very genuine and about, as we mentioned before, shared values. That shared values is key.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sarah, I'd be curious what you're seeing in your day-to-day, what's coming to bear and what you're seeing Is it de-influencing? How do you see the evolution of trust happening? What's going on in your world?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what Lauren said was really spot on. I think people are really looking for an authentic person to follow. They see through the BS. They want someone who's real and someone relatable and somebody that is like them. I think that we're going to be seeing more hopefully more influencers really coming to the table with realistic, relatable content. I think the influencer marketing game is only going to grow from here.
Speaker 2:In the last year, I think it was like $21 billion were spent on influencers and that's up 30% from the year previously. So I see companies just pouring more and more money into the influencer marketing scene. But it's really for the company side finding the right people to work with, whether that is a micro influencer or a macro influencer, and there's so many different benefits of working with the big time influencer. Of course, there's huge reach, but then there's also these micro influencers who have a lot of trust and they have a smaller following, but those people really trust them and maybe they're able to spend a little bit less money on that specific person and what they are able to get the word out to their people and then they can hire way more micro influencers. So I think we're gonna see a lot more of that.
Speaker 2:You don't have to be Kim Kardashian or something Navy to get a brand deal, and I think we're gonna see just a lot of like normal people getting them and I think that's cool, but I don't know. It'll be really interesting to see where it goes in the next 10 years. I've been doing this for 10 years and I was not called an influencer. When I started with a blogger, there wasn't even Instagram. So a lot's changed and I'm sure in the next 10 years it'll just keep evolving, but hopefully for the best.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this has been such an interesting conversation and I mean it seems to me that what I'm hearing is that influencers are having an increasing amount of power and the onus is on the brands and the companies to do their homework, to do the research, to make sure that they're being very thoughtful about how they are leveraging or engaging influencers, because if it does not fit with an influencer's own personal brand, they're gonna be told no, and I think that's really interesting, because trust is kind of the currency with which artists and creators kind of trade on. Now I'm gonna end here with kind of a last question, fun one that I didn't prepare you for. So I would like each of you to tell me your favorite influencer and while you think about it, I will share mine Nourish Move Love. She's out of Minnesota.
Speaker 1:She's a fitness blogger and food blogger and I came across her after I had my first baby and it was in the middle of the pandemic and so I couldn't work out or get back to the gym and she had this amazing kind of postpartum workout and I just did all of her workouts for like six months and it was really awesome to like start to feel strong again. So I'm gonna go with her. Who wants to go next?
Speaker 3:I'll go with Emily Oster. She is, you know, an economist who founded Parent Data and, obviously, being someone who is in the data world myself, when I came across her book, it just really spoke to me about making data driven decisions in a field of parenting, and that is often very emotional. And I love her hot takes. I love her. She doesn't just give you the data, but she gives you a point of view, and you can disagree with the point of view, but that is obviously what really aligns, I think, to what I do in my day to day to do. So I love everything. I take her as the Bible when it comes to parenting.
Speaker 3:And then I will throw in a really fun one Ironic Boat and Toad, which is a person who just started an Instagram of putting really funny sayings on LL Bean Toads. I think she started with doing things like Prada and Balenciaga on her toads, but now it evolves to other really funny things. Shout out to Stacy Kerr, who recognized my Ironic Boat and Toad and we had a moment. Mine says Spice Girl and it's just one of those things that I wish. Yeah, it's just one of those things that is just like in the crazy world we live in an influencer that is doing something fun and entertaining and things like that. I could go into a lot more in TikTok, but like there's a lot more I could get into, but I'm gonna go with those two for now. Okay, sarah, what about you?
Speaker 2:Oh okay. So I was like oh my God, I don't even know. There's so many that I follow and love and they're all up in my feed. But I actually really love Half Baked Harvest. I don't know if you guys follow her. I think her name's Tegan. She has like five million followers. She's a food blogger and she just creates most amazing recipes. They're pretty easy to follow, so I literally saved half of them and tried to recreate them at home. They don't look as beautiful, but you know. Anyways, I think she's a great follow because I never know what to cook, especially now with a child of like shoot, it's dinner time and I have no idea what we're eating. So that's been a really good follow for me.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I have two new follows over here and I'm excited. Well, thank you both for joining us. It was a great show. I learned a lot. And to our listeners, remember to like and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on Twitter at Penta Group, you can also find Sarah on all her platforms. At 52 Thursdays, I'm your host, Andrea Christensen, and, as always, thanks for listening. I'll see you guys next time.