WEBVTT 00:00:00.330 --> 00:00:00.479 Okay. 00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:00.989 Let's do it. 00:00:05.940 --> 00:00:06.629 That's okay. 00:00:10.199 --> 00:00:24.690 LGBT, L, G, B T, LGBT, LGBTQ. 00:00:26.969 --> 00:00:26.969 Q. 00:00:26.969 --> 00:00:26.969 Q. 00:00:26.969 --> 00:00:28.620 QQQ, QQQ, QQQ, QQQ. 00:00:28.620 --> 00:00:33.390 Q. 00:00:33.390 --> 00:00:33.390 Q. 00:00:33.390 --> 00:00:33.390 Q. 00:00:33.390 --> 00:00:33.390 Q. 00:00:33.390 --> 00:00:38.259 LGBTQ, LGBTTQ. 00:00:39.789 --> 00:00:41.119 LGBTTQQ. 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:47.049 LGBTTQQ2S, 2SLGBTQQ. 00:00:49.630 --> 00:00:49.960 2S. 00:00:50.770 --> 00:00:52.659 LGBTTQQ 2S. 00:00:58.179 --> 00:01:01.270 LGBTTQQ2S I. 00:01:02.679 --> 00:01:03.890 LGBTTQQ2SI. 00:01:05.230 --> 00:01:37.120 A LGBTTQQ2SIA+ LGBTTQQ2SIA+* L G L G L G L G L G L G L G L G G G G G G G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G G G G G G G G G G G G. 00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:41.840 L, LGBTTQQ2SIA+. 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:56.780 GG LGBT LGBTTQQ2SIA+ GG, LGBT, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer two spirit intersex. 00:01:56.900 --> 00:02:02.689 asexual, aromantic, androgynous agender, genderqueer, gender fluid, gender-fucked, gender, non-binary. 00:02:02.691 --> 00:02:03.709 Gender non-conforming, bigender. 00:02:03.980 --> 00:02:04.219 polygender. 00:02:04.460 --> 00:02:04.700 polyfluid. 00:02:04.971 --> 00:02:18.460 Polyamorous partyamorous, trysexual, liesexual, crysexual drysexual, pansexual, demisexual, androsexual, gynosexual, kinda sexual metro-sexual, scolio sexual, sapio sexual homosexual, heterosexual, butch femme. 00:02:18.490 --> 00:02:19.740 Dyke, Faggot, Daddy, son twink. 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:20.860 otter leather sub top.dom Bottom. 00:02:20.860 --> 00:02:36.039 Poz, Neg, Bear, Masc for Masc, gay for pay, GSA, PDA, FTM, MTF DDF PDF, STI, STD, HPV, HPV, BLT, TTC H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, QPOC, BIPOC QMOC QWOC QTBIPOC, third gender, fourth gender, fifth gender, sixth gender bi-curious, pan-curious questioning, questioning. 00:02:37.729 --> 00:02:43.610 Questioning, questioning, questioning, questioning, questioning, questioning, questioning, questioning, questioning, questioning, questioning, questioning, questioning, questioning, questioning... 00:02:52.259 --> 00:02:52.259 questioning. 00:03:03.650 --> 00:03:06.650 My name is Vanessa Dunn and welcome to The Youth Elders Podcast. 00:03:07.819 --> 00:03:17.419 The Youth Elders Podcast, sometimes referred to as YEP, is a community driven project that looks to highlight the need for intergenerational spaces and connections between queer youth and elders. 00:03:18.270 --> 00:03:29.659 In the fall of 2018 we hosted weekly recording sessions at Toronto's Oakwood Village Library, bringing together queer youth, elders, and everyone in between to chat candidly about a wide variety of topics. 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:41.689 What you're about to hear is from the September 15th live recording session entitled the Gay Alphabet- 2SLGBTQIA+*, the power of identity and words. 00:03:42.770 --> 00:03:49.370 During the session we discuss historical and modern day variations of the queer community acronym in North America and worldwide. 00:03:50.180 --> 00:03:54.530 We also discussed and questioned the value and necessity of the acronym. 00:03:55.340 --> 00:03:59.750 Who created it, who changes it, what's it for, who's it for, and who's it not for? 00:04:01.490 --> 00:04:06.199 A few notes before listening, remember this was recorded in a live space. 00:04:06.770 --> 00:04:18.500 Our recording station was located in the children's section of the library and therefore at times our guests will be competing with the very loud(and very adorable) noises of babies, toddlers, and whomever else accessed the library space that day. 00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:24.410 Also, these are candid conversations between queer folks, mainly youth and elders. 00:04:25.100 --> 00:04:30.079 Some of what you may hear may shock you and make you laugh and hopefully make you think and feel. 00:04:31.250 --> 00:04:35.959 Now, without further ado, episode one of The Youth Elders Podcast. 00:04:47.790 --> 00:04:51.810 So back in the day, back in the day. 00:04:51.870 --> 00:04:57.660 So in 1976 when I came out it was only L and B, there was nothing else. 00:04:57.661 --> 00:04:59.730 Sorry L and G. 00:04:59.730 --> 00:05:01.019 B wasn't talked about. 00:05:01.290 --> 00:05:04.050 T wasn't even on the horizon. 00:05:05.220 --> 00:05:14.129 And I only found out about trans people when I went to the Michigan Women's music festival cause it just wasn't talked about here in Toronto. 00:05:15.329 --> 00:05:19.709 And the other terms that were used were dyke butch femme, fag. 00:05:19.769 --> 00:05:35.649 All my gay male friends were fags and then there were the dykes who had to break down into butches or femmes, lesbian was quite common, but I just, I was in Trinidad in February and they use LBTI. 00:05:38.610 --> 00:05:38.850 Which means? 00:05:39.331 --> 00:05:42.750 Lesbian bi, trans and intersex. 00:05:43.699 --> 00:05:44.019 Yeah. 00:05:44.370 --> 00:05:46.649 So that's their acronym down there. 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:47.519 Yeah. 00:05:48.779 --> 00:05:50.399 Which is totally different. 00:05:51.420 --> 00:06:02.879 And I'm, I just made a note here that, when we are talking about who is sitting at the table, one of the interesting things that's come up as being discussed is the rainbow flag. 00:06:04.170 --> 00:06:09.720 So the colours brown and black were added to the flag in Philadelphia this year. 00:06:09.721 --> 00:06:18.720 And that's caused a huge controversy because how dare we add those colors and it's desecrating the flag. 00:06:19.889 --> 00:06:21.389 A sacred piece of fabric. 00:06:21.391 --> 00:06:21.779 Yes. 00:06:21.781 --> 00:06:25.139 So, but the same thing happens with this alphabet soup. 00:06:25.141 --> 00:06:28.949 who decides which letters to add? 00:06:29.550 --> 00:06:41.790 And um, my two-spirit friends now and in the indigenous community, we have been asked to put 2S first but that's only here in Canada. 00:06:41.819 --> 00:06:45.420 They do not use 2S- I just came back from the States. 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:47.550 They don't use 2S down there. 00:06:47.550 --> 00:06:53.250 So they don't even recognize, generally recognize the indigenous people. 00:06:53.670 --> 00:07:01.379 There's more down there being talked about slavery or what happened with uh, black people who were brought over as slaves. 00:07:01.410 --> 00:07:04.379 Nobody talks about indigenous people. 00:07:04.380 --> 00:07:07.110 Indigenous history is just wiped out. 00:07:08.189 --> 00:07:09.720 We went looking for that. 00:07:09.721 --> 00:07:11.100 We couldn't find anything. 00:07:12.569 --> 00:07:16.019 So we have to keep in mind what's happening here in Canada. 00:07:16.860 --> 00:07:32.069 It's very centred here in Canada, the 2S and I am finding now with many of the committees that I'm sitting on when I introducing the fact that we need to put 2S first there's pushback, which is really interesting. 00:07:32.430 --> 00:07:42.990 Why, even in our many queer communities- there's not one community, I keep saying this-there's pushback to put 2S first. 00:07:44.069 --> 00:07:45.160 And what is that pushback? 00:07:45.180 --> 00:07:46.800 Like what- where does it come from? 00:07:47.009 --> 00:07:47.819 What, what, what do they say? 00:07:47.821 --> 00:07:50.699 So the question is who decides to put 2S first? 00:07:52.889 --> 00:07:53.759 We decide. 00:07:54.660 --> 00:08:01.839 If we are paying respect t o two spirit people, we have to decide to do that because we h ave been asked to do t hat. 00:08:02.430 --> 00:08:09.720 And if you're looking at the 94 recommendations from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, that needs to be one of them. 00:08:09.779 --> 00:08:11.129 If we are being inclusive. 00:08:12.100 --> 00:08:19.620 So I just find it really sad and disheartening that within the 2S alphabet, that this is happening. 00:08:19.769 --> 00:08:24.779 To even put 2S first, it has to go to the board it has to be discussed. 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:28.079 The organization and the membership has to approve it. 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:28.920 Why? 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:31.019 Why is that so difficult? 00:08:31.170 --> 00:08:48.419 Well, it's also so symbolic of, and at least with an organization, it gives us some step- steps in terms of who exactly is authorizing a change to the community acronym, whether it's right or wrong, but as a community, I just wonder why... 00:08:48.509 --> 00:08:54.210 Going through those steps ultimately then it will, it'll be the ones in power that make the decision. 00:08:54.629 --> 00:09:05.740 And so I assume the same thing has happened even in the emergence of the beginning of the acronym, which went, it was just probably G at the beginning when you were talking about actually Russell. 00:09:05.769 --> 00:09:06.149 Yeah. 00:09:06.340 --> 00:09:07.480 An umbrella term. 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:12.190 I was thinking, well, what, it wouldn't have been queer at that time, so it probably would've just been gay. 00:09:13.220 --> 00:09:13.480 Yeah. 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:28.940 And, and it's, you get the tail end of the sixties and, and, and peace and love and the fact that, you know, people down like Harry Hay down in, uh, California and the Sisters and the, and the, and the faeries, the radical faeries. 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:34.399 You know, at that point we're saying, okay, queer is a word we need to take back. 00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:37.250 Queer is a word that needs to be disempowered. 00:09:37.309 --> 00:09:43.799 And we need now to start speaking the word queer, with our own lips, and I can remember literally you know around a pitcher of beer, going. 00:09:44.330 --> 00:09:47.629 Oh No, we can't own that word because it is indeed derogatory. 00:09:48.049 --> 00:09:50.990 You know, it's, it is, it's a word that has been hurled at us. 00:09:50.990 --> 00:09:56.149 It's, you know, it's the, in schoolyards you're the- You know, I can remember being the queer little sissy boy. 00:09:56.570 --> 00:10:07.129 And again, I don't know how many other people like, oh wait a minute they, they had the label for me before I had it and it's, it's being thrown at me like a brick. 00:10:07.129 --> 00:10:09.110 And I was like, how do you know? 00:10:09.139 --> 00:10:23.000 Cause I don't know yet that I'm, you know, and yeah, so again, it's that sort of thing where, there's this- in San Francisco and possibly in New York, there was this understanding that we need to retake the word queer. 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:24.769 And that would be the radical faeries. 00:10:24.770 --> 00:10:27.320 That would be the sisters of perpetual indulgence. 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:33.950 That would be, you know, that would be a bit of the Mattachine society, you know, would that be the language of ACT UP? 00:10:34.250 --> 00:10:55.159 Would that be, you know, and you know, like you saying, you know, we have to decide it's like Whoa, what's the official who's the, who's the committee, the committee that's in charge of, you know, what we call ourselves and also is that- okay, that's, that's a government body saying,"well now we say this" and when does that t rickle down to... 00:10:55.190 --> 00:10:59.539 we actually use that language in the sheets and on the streets? 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:15.009 Okay. 00:11:15.010 --> 00:11:15.909 What is the difference? 00:11:15.990 --> 00:11:18.700 What's the difference between agender and non-binary? 00:11:21.019 --> 00:11:24.830 Um, well I think it's a personal thing perhaps. 00:11:24.889 --> 00:11:30.039 I mean, uh, often times it's a separation, I think between. 00:11:30.049 --> 00:11:33.289 Uh, non binary usually... 00:11:33.350 --> 00:11:35.980 I mean it's hard for me to speak for an entire group. 00:11:35.779 --> 00:11:39.110 I think everyone certainly relates to it in different ways. 00:11:41.419 --> 00:11:45.409 I'll speak then about agender,'cause agender for me anyways is- is. 00:11:46.820 --> 00:11:47.690 Oftentimes non-binary. 00:11:48.230 --> 00:11:49.309 I think it's both. 00:11:49.370 --> 00:11:52.850 And agender is usually neither, neither male or female. 00:11:52.431 --> 00:11:58.399 And choosing not to associate with either of the gender identities. 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:01.080 I think... 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:12.250 Yeah, I feel like maybe it's sort of like a thing of that non-binary still has the connotation of like having a gender versus agender is like you don't have at all. 00:12:11.990 --> 00:12:20.179 You can almost call yourself an"it". 00:12:15.580 --> 00:12:20.179 Some people do. 00:12:20.210 --> 00:12:21.419 Some people use it pronouns for themselves. 00:12:22.070 --> 00:12:26.450 But for myself, that's how I identify. 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:32.799 However, it's as much as a- for me- a political statement as it is an identity. 00:12:31.289 --> 00:12:32.799 Agender? 00:12:33.379 --> 00:12:34.350 Y es, yes. 00:12:34.429 --> 00:12:34.820 Y eah. 00:12:35.289 --> 00:12:35.929 So That's interesting. 00:12:36.059 --> 00:12:45.860 We talked a lot about that, is some of these identities, whether they're, whether they're, um, associated with sexuality, which I think they've always been. 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:53.429 That was the dominant, that was sort of the foundation I think, or does it get into different identities that you hold. 00:12:54.710 --> 00:13:02.879 But, to go back to the 2S there's two spirit and then the second S is for straight. 00:13:02.659 --> 00:13:03.039 Wait what? 00:13:03.139 --> 00:13:05.629 [ Laughter]. 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:13.309 Because we added the S because straight had to be in there as a... 00:13:12.899 --> 00:13:13.309 Why? 00:13:12.899 --> 00:13:13.309 Who says? 00:13:13.580 --> 00:13:15.110 No, I'm saying it was added as a sex... 00:13:15.110 --> 00:13:26.509 uality because other people, if you left straight out it meant that we were abnormal, and they were normal. 00:13:26.549 --> 00:13:28.730 So they're- they're part of the spectrum. 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:29.570 Yes. 00:13:29.899 --> 00:13:38.960 So I just did a workshop on Thursday where we talked about people being straight as the S and one woman was very offended. 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:42.990 "Why would I be on your, with all your terms? 00:13:43.309 --> 00:13:44.450 Because I'm not like you." 00:13:44.220 --> 00:13:46.970 "I'm not straight. 00:13:46.971 --> 00:13:48.019 I'm just normal." 00:13:48.470 --> 00:13:50.929 Yeah, that's exactly what she said. 00:13:50.931 --> 00:13:51.860 "I'm not straight. 00:13:51.889 --> 00:13:52.879 I'm normal." Yeah. 00:13:53.389 --> 00:13:57.110 So why would you, why would you break down straight as part of this? 00:13:58.169 --> 00:14:01.059 Like we're the weirdos with all the different words for what we are? 00:14:01.129 --> 00:14:01.970 Yeah. 00:14:01.129 --> 00:14:02.649 Yeah, exactly. 00:14:02.750 --> 00:14:02.750 You. 00:14:02.750 --> 00:14:04.080 Yeah likes cis, kind of. 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:04.500 Yeah. 00:14:04.690 --> 00:14:05.269 And it happens. 00:14:05.270 --> 00:14:09.919 It happens all the time when we do these workshops that they get really offended. 00:14:10.340 --> 00:14:13.179 Say they're straight[laughter]. 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:16.549 But straight was never a part of the acronym is it, but it... 00:14:16.130 --> 00:14:17.120 it was? 00:14:17.570 --> 00:14:18.860 There's 2SSIAA*+. 00:14:23.139 --> 00:14:23.389 Two Ss. 00:14:24.549 --> 00:14:26.450 I've never heard that straight was part of it, though. 00:14:26.590 --> 00:14:26.879 Yeah. 00:14:27.070 --> 00:14:30.340 I never heard it included in the acronym like that. 00:14:30.659 --> 00:14:33.460 But interestingly, why not? 00:14:33.461 --> 00:14:42.519 Because part of this is, you know, the sexuality and gender spectrum there are indeed straight[inaudible]. 00:14:42.549 --> 00:14:53.399 Yeah, no, I mean with this conversation, my main question is always like, what is the purpose of inclusivity? 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:58.379 And like what is the purpose of being specific about it? 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:01.200 For me, sorry. 00:15:01.450 --> 00:15:01.450 Yeah, 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:01.919 Go for it. 00:15:01.921 --> 00:15:02.090 Yeah. 00:15:03.090 --> 00:15:10.139 For me, like, it's all about, um, I sort of changed my identity cause I grew up in small town. 00:15:10.140 --> 00:15:11.200 The only thing we have is gay. 00:15:11.010 --> 00:15:11.789 And I like, okay. 00:15:11.791 --> 00:15:12.590 I guess that's what I, yeah. 00:15:13.470 --> 00:15:16.559 Even though I didn't, I've never felt like something I connected to. 00:15:16.561 --> 00:15:48.539 And it wasn't until I did my own research and went out into the wider world and also, uh, other identities became more visible that I was sort of like, oh okay, like there's actually more, there was a lot of power and strength in identity and being able to fixate on something to say"this is the most, this feels the most like what I am." And getting very specific about it, you know, rather than from what's- from what was available, uh, gave a lot of power. 00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:53.279 Um, but it's, to me it's also very, it's conflicting, right? 00:15:53.280 --> 00:15:59.549 Because the more you create unification, you do have power. 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:07.049 However, and this is just my understanding and how I interpret queerness, in quotations. 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:17.700 Um, that to me, queerness, the essence of queerness is being able to, it's the difference between fixed and fluid identities. 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:32.070 And, uh, like for myself, I feel like my own identity is in transition and being able to change at any point I think is, is important, I think, as well. 00:16:32.929 --> 00:16:43.620 Uh, but, um, but at the same time, that's difficult, especially living in an environment that we are in that has been shaped by colonialism. 00:16:43.710 --> 00:16:49.080 And that sort of is, to me, is the cause that has erased all of these identities. 00:16:49.649 --> 00:17:03.779 And is sort of why we're sort of reclaiming these terms, but they, in a way, they sort of have to be so varied because they have to represent what the essence of queerness is for us. 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:13.740 And if you can, and it, it's, it becomes even more broad for me because this is just how we interpret our lives in the western world where like... 00:17:13.740 --> 00:17:21.809 Recently I've been doing a lot of research on hijras, which are like, the oldest transgender community in uh, Southeast Asia. 00:17:23.490 --> 00:17:35.880 And their interpretation of the role is completely different and the terms that they have and how that role has been passed on through their societies and through their systems, completely different. 00:17:35.890 --> 00:17:45.730 So it's, it's sort of, I often wonder like, what are we really trying to capture, and, yeah, sorry. 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:59.069 But yeah, and it doesn't surprise me that a lot of straight people are calling themselves queer and are sort of, it's, do you know what I mean? 00:17:59.070 --> 00:18:00.710 It's sort of, it's... 00:18:01.289 --> 00:18:09.180 Well you have a conversation with somebody who, you know, ostensibly is heterosexual but they're kinky, right? 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:09.789 Right. 00:18:09.809 --> 00:18:38.789 You know, they're, they're, they're BDSM, you know, they're a dom and a sub and you know, what world do they belong in, where, you know, do they identify more with, you know, the sexual outlaws, which, you know, which would- Again, let's go back to the 70s where, you know, we're the sexual outlaws we're the outsiders and you know, I have conversations with, with heterosexual kinky folks who say,"Oh wow, you know, there's some places where we don't feel we belong. 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:57.450 We're not made to feel welcome in kink spaces because, you know, we're male and female couples." And again, you know, it's like a new conversation or different conversation or concept that's new to me. 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:08.150 I guess with that then the ar- it still puts sort of emphasis on sex and sexuality and that. 00:19:08.210 --> 00:19:13.630 And that's where sometimes I struggle with the ally... 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:19.890 Incorporating allies, straight, heterosexual people that enjoy kink. 00:19:20.859 --> 00:19:43.569 Because my understanding growing up was that this ac- this community acronym was for the communities within the queer community and that, so that argument of adding straight to, to make, you know, I don't think that we can get away from the fact that heterosexuals have the power in society. 00:19:43.609 --> 00:19:44.920 They just are the majority. 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:49.269 They harbor a lot more power than other, you know, communities. 00:19:49.270 --> 00:19:57.039 And so this was set up as you know, in contrast to the dominant form, which was heterosexual. 00:19:57.040 --> 00:20:00.130 So to then be inclusive to them like am I not generous? 00:20:00.131 --> 00:20:04.980 [ laughter] But really, I'm like, but, you have everything else. 00:20:09.609 --> 00:20:22.059 I think that is where it gets a bit tricky for me and those sort of like endless inclusivity thing because it gets very like what is like, what are we, what's the purpose of this community now? 00:20:22.089 --> 00:20:37.569 Like it's not, if it's not based around, I don't know, like even beyond like shared experience like activism or like a shared purpose or a shared like... 00:20:37.211 --> 00:20:37.569 Yeah... 00:20:40.740 --> 00:20:45.779 I don't know, yeah. 00:20:47.170 --> 00:21:03.480 We also have to be careful about who is deciding on the acronym and where it's centered because it's centered in North America, this is not happening outside of North America where people are sitting around talking about- it's not happening in the C aribbean. 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:11.200 The only reason they came up with LBTI was because they had to for the N GOs to get the funding. 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:15.549 They don't use acronyms, they don't use labels. 00:21:15.730 --> 00:21:25.450 So when I was in Trinidad and I tried to find lesbians who w ere age 50 plus, they said, well, y ou're n ot g oing t o find anybody who's identifying as a lesbian. 00:21:24.641 --> 00:21:27.579 It's women loving women. 00:21:27.609 --> 00:21:29.440 That's how they identify. 00:21:30.609 --> 00:21:33.160 And I wanted to bring us back to queer. 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:40.359 So I was talking to this Black guy from the States last year, and I said,"I now identify as a queer d yke". 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:44.349 And the reason I identify as a q ueer d yke i s coming out of YEP. 00:21:45.130 --> 00:21:48.589 Because I kept saying I was a dyke and I said, i t's a political t erm. 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:49.779 And they didn't get it. 00:21:49.809 --> 00:21:51.910 T he youth, most of the youth didn't get i t. 00:21:52.420 --> 00:21:55.339 But when I say I'm a queer dyke, they get q ueer. 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:55.339 Right? 00:21:56.829 --> 00:21:57.920 So I'm saying,"oh, yes. 00:21:58.099 --> 00:22:02.960 I'm a queer dyke." And he says,"oh, that's interesting when did Canada's start using quare?". 00:22:03.579 --> 00:22:06.779 So I said,"well, we've been using it for years.", He says,"no, not q ueer, q uare". 00:22:07.549 --> 00:22:26.099 So I said,"is i t my accent?" So he said"Q-U-A-R-E is what African, Black, u h, African Americans are now using queers t hat's, they've come- they have come up with that term Q-U-A-R-E to separate themselves out from white queers. 00:22:26.269 --> 00:22:26.519 Yes. 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:30.190 Separate themselves out. 00:22:32.539 --> 00:22:44.920 Yeah, because they don't face, they face different struggles being queer and Black than other people face being queer. 00:22:44.921 --> 00:22:58.269 And that's why I keep saying it's not, it's not one community'cause if you had a group of Caribbean people sitting here or African people or Syrian or from any other country, we would not be having the same conversation. 00:22:59.529 --> 00:23:07.750 So I think it brings us back to the question of what is the purpose and function of this? 00:23:07.779 --> 00:23:21.970 If it is more divisive than it is inclusive, which sometimes it feels like it is, in terms of people saying, you know, yes, I'm queer, but I'm not that queer. 00:23:21.971 --> 00:23:26.380 Because that would be based in cis white, queer normativity. 00:23:26.740 --> 00:23:28.059 Male, cis white male. 00:23:28.450 --> 00:23:28.930 Yes. 00:23:30.470 --> 00:23:34.869 Um, and so let's create something else. 00:23:35.769 --> 00:23:39.940 Then, is it that we just need a ground- a grounding of understanding? 00:23:39.970 --> 00:23:41.740 Yeah, You need something to hold on to. 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:44.470 We all want something to hold on to to hold us together. 00:23:54.049 --> 00:24:03.410 That was from our September 15th live recording entitled"The Gay Alphabet, the power of identity and words." The next recording is from a speed history session. 00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:10.009 This is where we pair a youth or a pair of youth with an elder and give them a topic to discuss for 15 minutes. 00:24:10.490 --> 00:24:14.180 Once that 15 minutes is up, they switch partners and discuss a new topic. 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:19.190 It's a great exercise for youth and elders to connect in a more in depth and intimate way. 00:24:20.089 --> 00:24:24.740 The topic of conversation you'll hear now between two youth and an elder is sex and dating. 00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:32.450 A note, you'll hear one of the participants reference Oasis, which is a sex positive spa slash bathhouse located in Toronto. 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:38.809 Also, Goldstar which refers to a queer woman-identified person who has never slept with a cis man. 00:24:43.289 --> 00:24:53.849 Well, my family, like didn't talk about sex period, like let alone gay, anything gay or lesbian cause I grew up in like this really fun family, but they were like Catholic. 00:24:55.349 --> 00:25:00.630 And Irish Catholic, which means go and down party, have a lot, but don't ever talk about anything serious. 00:25:01.170 --> 00:25:02.819 Like just suck it up, keep it to yourself. 00:25:03.180 --> 00:25:11.269 So I didn't know about sex period and I was petrified when I was like, I didn't, um, I had boyfriends in high school and I was like, ah, no. 00:25:11.950 --> 00:25:12.930 Um, did you have boyfriends? 00:25:13.170 --> 00:25:13.829 I had a boyfriend. 00:25:14.099 --> 00:25:14.460 Yeah. 00:25:14.900 --> 00:25:14.900 Yes. 00:25:15.500 --> 00:25:17.160 And in high school or after? 00:25:16.891 --> 00:25:28.200 It was in high school, I was just like, I was like, it was this weird period where I was like, decided to date this person just because I wanted to, you know, it was not like a love. 00:25:28.589 --> 00:25:28.589 Yeah. 00:25:29.180 --> 00:25:32.549 Um, and then I was like, he, how can I say it? 00:25:32.789 --> 00:25:40.259 He tried to dom me and I was like,"this is not gonna work for us, honey." He tried to dom me. 00:25:40.289 --> 00:25:42.259 He tried to be the top. 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:42.259 So you knew right from the beginning what you wanted. 00:25:42.450 --> 00:25:42.720 Yeah. 00:25:43.059 --> 00:25:45.299 I was just like, this is not happening like that. 00:25:45.300 --> 00:25:46.319 So it was just like, mmm... 00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:48.960 he was like not a good person. 00:25:49.109 --> 00:25:50.759 He was just like not a good person. 00:25:50.789 --> 00:25:53.069 That's something that you've touched and for me is really interesting. 00:25:53.130 --> 00:25:57.569 I always think like sex is like, it's a power weird dynamic. 00:25:58.500 --> 00:25:59.069 Can be, yeah. 00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:06.000 And t hat I was like, cause I remember when I started, cause I, I just, there was a period t hat I was like, I love porn. 00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:06.509 Porn is so nice. 00:26:06.510 --> 00:26:07.710 And I found p egging. 00:26:08.549 --> 00:26:09.809 Have you ever seen pegging? 00:26:09.869 --> 00:26:10.440 What is pegging? 00:26:10.141 --> 00:26:10.440 I heard about it. 00:26:11.150 --> 00:26:21.630 Is like mostly when, when women uh, fuck a like cisgender man or I think whoever, with strap-ons. 00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:21.630 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:26:21.849 --> 00:26:29.460 And that f or m e I was like,"what i s t his?" But I love it c ause it was such a like- seeing those women being like,"I'll fuck you!" 00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:30.359 I was like- 00:26:30.900 --> 00:26:33.390 "I'll peg you", basically that was the idea? 00:26:33.500 --> 00:26:35.009 That's the hottest thing I've seen. 00:26:34.800 --> 00:26:39.930 I was like that power of like I am going to make you feel all these things. 00:26:39.931 --> 00:26:40.380 I was like. 00:26:40.141 --> 00:26:41.789 it's actually kind of exciting. 00:26:42.539 --> 00:26:42.539 Yeah. 00:26:42.539 --> 00:26:43.769 When you think about it. 00:26:43.619 --> 00:26:59.940 And there's like, but there's, there's also like a lot of like things around like sub that are like,"subs are like less powerful" when it's like,"honey, that's, that's not true." What I've realized is like strong people that I meet in real life that are like, you respect them, you're like, they're like tops in the world are the subbiest. 00:27:00.299 --> 00:27:00.809 Exactly. 00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:06.819 And then the people that are like the nicest, you know, they're like so sweet and angel, they're like, they're going to fuck you. 00:27:07.130 --> 00:27:07.130 Right. 00:27:07.130 --> 00:27:07.130 I love that. 00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:25.740 But, you know, um, it's funny that you're talking about that because, uh, when, uh, uh, I was like, I what they call me a"gold star lesbian" cause I never actually had intercourse cause I knew very early when teenager that I want to be with a woman. 00:27:25.740 --> 00:27:27.029 So it was like one of those things. 00:27:27.030 --> 00:27:31.319 But um, but I had great boyfriends, they were great, but they all end up being gay. 00:27:31.809 --> 00:27:33.650 Well that's, like, so nice. 00:27:35.009 --> 00:28:03.539 But yeah, when, you know, when I was first sort of exploring and being with women, you know, I was like 19, 20 years old, I kept, I was in the theatre scene and I was actually with- worked with Sky Gilbert and Buddies way before the building happened and I was meeting all these people that were in the, you know, S/M scene and, and you know, talking to them about that and I'm just like, uh, it was interesting to learn about that at the very beginning and hear about that kind of power thing. 00:28:03.540 --> 00:28:17.759 And, and I actually found it quite intriguing, dabbled a bit but didn't like, it was like, okay, um, but wasn't like, you know, living the whole lifestyle thing, but that's how I learned about sex. 00:28:18.210 --> 00:28:23.519 Like hearing about these people, you know, and uh, like toys and everything right from the get go. 00:28:23.910 --> 00:28:24.180 Right. 00:28:24.420 --> 00:28:29.400 And that was a big shift for me going from like this sheltered, like Catholic girl to that. 00:28:29.970 --> 00:28:30.390 Right. 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:31.650 I was like crazy. 00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:36.690 But the fact that there was so much like open dialogue in the gay scene, you know, about sex was really healthy. 00:28:36.691 --> 00:28:39.990 It was really good because I got, I got over my shyness really quickly. 00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:40.950 You know, 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:47.910 That was I the first time I went to Oasis, the women and Trans women night that they have. 00:28:47.671 --> 00:28:47.910 Yeah, on Thursdays? 00:28:49.410 --> 00:28:49.980 Or Sundays? 00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:52.680 But it's like once a month sometimes it, right. 00:28:52.681 --> 00:28:57.900 I remember the first time I went, it was, I made a random new friend who, she was also from Mexico. 00:28:57.901 --> 00:29:01.200 I met her like at Inside Out a random night. 00:29:01.201 --> 00:29:10.759 And then I was like,"let's hang out before you go back" because she lives in Montreal and she's like,"Oh I only have one night off and like free and I'm going to this place." And I'm like,"What? 00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:12.809 cause, all my friends were couples. 00:29:13.349 --> 00:29:14.940 They were like,"Go cause nobody's going to go with you. 00:29:14.820 --> 00:29:18.809 So go with your new friend." And I was like, okay. 00:29:18.810 --> 00:29:27.089 And I remember I went and I felt I was, I I felt so shy cause people were just like naked and I think I put even more clothes on. 00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:30.450 I think people were like,"The managers here." I was like so bad. 00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:34.109 But for me it was like I will come back one year and be more free. 00:29:34.111 --> 00:29:39.210 But for me what it impact me was like the freedom all these people had in that space. 00:29:39.211 --> 00:29:40.589 I was like, never in my life. 00:29:40.590 --> 00:29:45.319 I thought I would see like women just sitting to watch another woman, like- 00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:46.509 Yeah. 00:29:46.569 --> 00:29:49.240 On the thing that's like a mechanic bull. 00:29:49.289 --> 00:29:49.640 Yeah. 00:29:50.099 --> 00:29:50.339 Yeah. 00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:54.220 I was so surprised about that and how chill everything was. 00:29:54.221 --> 00:30:03.910 I was like, I felt really jealous of everybody's like confidence on their own like sexuality that I was like,"One day I'll probably..." 00:30:03.940 --> 00:30:14.200 To me it was, I went to lot of stuff like that too and it was like very theatrical almost, you know, because I grew up in the theatre and I was like, it's like another form of like theatre, but it's like really showing your other side. 00:30:14.201 --> 00:30:25.599 And I did find that a lot of these, like people who were like, there was this one guy I'll never forget, he was dressed in Saran wrap and like nothing but his penis hanging out of the Saran wrap. 00:30:25.601 --> 00:30:28.089 And I was like,"You go like how? 00:30:28.150 --> 00:30:30.009 That's so cool that you can do that." And then. 00:30:30.010 --> 00:30:34.539 And then I look at them, I go,"I wonder what they do in their day job." Right. 00:30:34.930 --> 00:30:39.910 Like he's probably like this really like conservative, you know, CEO, or something. 00:30:39.911 --> 00:30:42.609 It's always like the opposite of what, you know. 00:30:42.670 --> 00:30:43.630 It was interesting. 00:30:43.980 --> 00:30:47.890 You know, cause it's all psychological, just like sex is so psychological. 00:30:48.160 --> 00:31:03.490 I think that's, I remember once I moved here I and I start to hear more about sex workers and dominators and I was like,"That job is so important." Like and also for me, I always wanted like maybe in the future I'll do this too is like hire a sex worker. 00:31:03.700 --> 00:31:10.480 Cause I was like I want to, if I want to have like if I'm going to pay for sex, I feel like they know their shit, and it's going to be like the best sex ever. 00:31:10.211 --> 00:31:11.740 I think I have to say. 00:31:11.740 --> 00:31:14.799 I think t hat's would be a really interesting thing to hire a prostitute. 00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:17.200 I think t hat'd be really interesting. 00:31:17.470 --> 00:31:20.859 I said before I die, I s aid maybe I should put that on my bucket list. 00:31:20.861 --> 00:31:25.180 I t's just for like, I think i t'd be a cool experience cause they're t here just for you. 00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:30.779 Actually that's how relationships should be, but it never works out that way. 00:31:30.980 --> 00:31:31.779 But I think that's amazing. 00:31:32.769 --> 00:31:35.950 And then the knowledge they, the knowledge they have. 00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:43.839 I'm, I was just like want to say to me like tell me cause l ike yeah cause something I thought I used to be a gold star lesbian. 00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:50.170 Well one time I was like I want to try- c ause I want- I tried one time with a cisgender m an, which was horrible cause. 00:31:50.529 --> 00:31:55.180 Yeah, sometimes I think that would be interesting to try and I'm like nah, I don't have a burning desire- 00:31:55.390 --> 00:32:00.910 I don't even sometimes count it because it literally was like, I think it was one second that I was with that person. 00:32:00.911 --> 00:32:12.130 I was like,"Oh no," he's like,"What?" And I'm like, oh I thought for one, for one minute I was like, I should just hire like a professional male prostitute. 00:32:12.549 --> 00:32:15.849 Like if I wanted to have that experience, why didn't I give myself the best? 00:32:16.529 --> 00:32:16.529 Yeah. 00:32:25.579 --> 00:32:28.849 I hope you enjoyed the first episode of The Youth Elders Podcast. 00:32:29.420 --> 00:32:34.700 This has been a production of Buddies in Bad Times Theatre, the world's largest and longest-running queer theatre company. 00:32:35.660 --> 00:32:42.680 We want to thank all of the amazing participants who are featured today and those who came out to the live recording sessions last year and share their lives with us. 00:32:43.849 --> 00:32:49.180 I also want to thank our incredible YEP team, Daniel Carter, LeZlie Lee Kam and Aidan Morishita-Miki. 00:32:50.539 --> 00:32:57.170 Special thanks to our sound engineer Jessie Tollefsen, who not only recorded and edited each episode but also created our theme song. 00:32:58.490 --> 00:33:01.940 Thank you to artistic director, Evalyn Parry and the entire family at Buddies. 00:33:02.779 --> 00:33:07.880 Special thanks to the Toronto Arts Council and Iana and her team at the Oakwood Village Library for their support. 00:33:08.359 --> 00:33:12.710 And finally, thank you for tuning in and supporting the Youth Elders Podcast. 00:33:13.220 --> 00:33:21.980 Please feel free to find us on social media as Buddies in Bad Times Theatre or@buddiesTO and online on the Buddies in Bad Times theatre website buddiesinbadtimes.com/yep. 00:33:24.470 --> 00:33:30.289 There you can find out about upcoming episodes, featured guests and links to episode notes and community resources. 00:33:29.540 --> 00:33:38.690 The Youth Elders Podcast was recorded on the traditional lands of the Mississauga of the credit, the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosonee, and t he Huron Wendat. 00:33:40.579 --> 00:33:47.210 On the next episode of the Youth Elders Podcast, we discuss queer social movements then and now h ave w e really come as far as we think. 00:33:47.539 --> 00:33:50.720 T une i n next month; until then, be well.