WEBVTT 00:00:00.029 --> 00:00:02.370 Hi, my name is Leslie Lee cam. 00:00:02.430 --> 00:00:15.029 Hello, my name is Ty Sloan and this is season two of the youth elders podcast, creating space for identities, histories, and perspectives across generations. 00:00:19.850 --> 00:00:24.949 This season takes a look at personal stories of coming out, navigating identity and finding 00:00:25.100 --> 00:00:34.490 Homes while also discussing the impact of institutional spaces and activist movements on the very places we find community. 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:43.399 This season's episodes are curated and recorded by myself, Thai Sloan, Leslie Lee cam, Naomi bane, bear Bergman and Roma Spencer. 00:00:43.909 --> 00:00:53.119 Most of our recordings were made in Toronto on the traditional territories of the Anishinaabi, the[inaudible] and the wind deck and treaty territory of the Mississaugas of the credit. 00:00:54.259 --> 00:00:59.929 Our first episode is hosted by myself, Leslie Naomi bean and Roma Spencer. 00:01:00.530 --> 00:01:12.890 We are joined by[inaudible] for a conversation about losing is navigating closets, choosing our families and tapping into our shared streets. 00:01:13.549 --> 00:01:14.599 A quick content warning. 00:01:14.900 --> 00:01:17.239 The conversation includes a brief mention of suicide. 00:01:17.780 --> 00:01:20.530 Please check the show notes for the time codes, if you want to skip over it. 00:01:27.379 --> 00:01:43.159 No, Leslie, I would ask you to lead off this round table discussion because I recognize you as the most senior must ladies and in my culture and certainly yours as a trend, we always recognize the elders first. 00:01:43.849 --> 00:01:51.290 So Leslie, you know, I want you to talk about your own loss years and how you, you know, stay safe. 00:01:52.129 --> 00:01:56.120 Thank you, Roma, and a welcome to Naomi and tomorrow. 00:01:56.150 --> 00:02:09.020 So, uh, just to speak about my loss is I was in a relationship with, um, I guess I would say young woman at the time we were boasting university. 00:02:09.949 --> 00:02:23.930 Uh, we were in our late teens and, um, our relationship was very much hidden and we didn't even use the word lesbian because I was considered to be a bad word. 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:29.090 There was stigma attached back then this was in the seventies. 00:02:29.780 --> 00:02:46.520 So a long time ago and um, when her family, her sister to be precise because she was living with her sister here in Toronto, when her sister found us together kissing, she was immediately sent back to Trinidad. 00:02:47.180 --> 00:02:50.509 And, uh, I was in a state. 00:02:50.960 --> 00:03:15.490 I was just so devastated and I realized that's when my, um, relationship with alcohol began and many of us back then who would dealing with coming out and being gay and lesbian used alcohol and drugs to cope with the stress of having to hide. 00:03:16.210 --> 00:03:20.860 So those were my first, last is those three years of my life. 00:03:21.819 --> 00:03:42.639 But to the upside of that was that I came out, I found a loot, the lesbian organization of Toronto, and I came out, but it's had a huge impact on my life, which I didn't realize until we actually started having this conversation about loss stairs. 00:03:43.300 --> 00:04:06.509 You, for me, you know, the, my last year has had to do with the fact that I had to keep my sexuality, my sexual orientation hidden, but yet I was still kind of almost, you know, open to my theater colleagues, being back home in Trinidad and Tobago, being an artist. 00:04:07.590 --> 00:04:14.310 Um, those in those days as an activist, there isn't much stigma against you because, oh, she's just one of those. 00:04:14.311 --> 00:04:16.470 He's one of those artists, one of those actors. 00:04:16.860 --> 00:04:17.970 So it is allowed. 00:04:18.149 --> 00:04:36.689 However, I didn't carry a, a sign on my back, but see, so there was still no kind of a comfort level to identify as being, as being a lesbian and the word lesbian certainly was a word that you just didn't say, all right. 00:04:36.750 --> 00:04:46.949 And it was very derogatory to be, um, to be called the word that they used then was, um, Zomy, you know, she's a Zomy and that was even more hurtful. 00:04:48.000 --> 00:05:01.680 Um, I only could recognize and understand what this notion of last years is when I came to Canada, when I had the comfort level, when someone asked me if I was gay to say, yes, I am. 00:05:01.980 --> 00:05:03.509 So that's when I realized, huh. 00:05:03.899 --> 00:05:10.889 You know, the notion of this last year's things, um, is really something that existed for me in Trinidad. 00:05:11.129 --> 00:05:20.250 But once I moved here to Canada, um, I found my years, you know, it was no longer a what I will call, you know, that last year. 00:05:20.670 --> 00:05:24.569 So, um, let me pass that on now to Naomi what's your last year. 00:05:25.170 --> 00:05:39.209 So I would say that my last year was a little bit different just because I find that my generation came out a lot younger than I did. 00:05:39.930 --> 00:05:45.899 Um, I came out in my twenties, um, around the same time I discovered ballroom. 00:05:46.290 --> 00:06:20.449 And what ballroom was about, um, ballroom gave me a platform to sort of be discovered and hold my own for those that don't know what ballroom is ballroom is the subculture, um, that was created by black and legend next folks, uh, in the 1960s, our show, uh, where it, where folks came together, created families, um, that were sort of the safety net for those wanting to come out. 00:06:20.451 --> 00:06:24.920 Because a lot of times when youth were coming out, they were getting disowned by their family. 00:06:26.149 --> 00:06:35.629 Um, so when I came out, I was able to find support in ballroom and meeting people like Tamer. 00:06:36.649 --> 00:06:43.009 Uh, I know for Tamer, Tamer has much of much different story that I do. 00:06:43.430 --> 00:06:47.870 So, Taylor, do you want to share a little bit about your story of what it was like for you coming out? 00:06:47.870 --> 00:06:52.519 It was like for you going through your elementary school perspective? 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:53.540 Yeah. 00:06:54.079 --> 00:07:11.870 Um, for me my last years, I think I, I consider them a little bit different, um, because I feel like my last years were like my entire childhood where my last year is, I feel like, you know, I wasn't able to actually be a child out of fear of the entire world. 00:07:12.110 --> 00:07:19.069 So it wasn't until I came out at like 19 or I was outed at 19. 00:07:19.910 --> 00:07:28.970 Um, but I actually started living and discovering and felt like the world I was, I had access to the world of the world was actually for me versus against me. 00:07:29.899 --> 00:07:35.629 Um, so I think that, that's what I consider my last years is basically from zero till 19. 00:07:36.129 --> 00:07:39.819 So she, a zero to 19 years is within the GTA. 00:07:40.389 --> 00:07:40.750 Yes. 00:07:40.750 --> 00:07:41.529 In Durham region. 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:43.600 I grew up in like Oshawa Curtis 00:07:44.459 --> 00:07:49.750 Consider that, um, certainly, um, out of town kind of thing. 00:07:49.899 --> 00:07:52.899 What was it like for you when you came to Toronto? 00:07:53.410 --> 00:08:05.800 Honestly, it was so turbulent and so terrifying because when I knew my mom was going to find out when she came home from work that day and I had an hour to get it together, I just packed my stuff and just laughed. 00:08:05.829 --> 00:08:07.509 Like I had no idea where I was going. 00:08:07.511 --> 00:08:10.899 I just knew that it was going down that day and there was nothing I could do about it. 00:08:11.769 --> 00:08:23.439 Um, so it was such a culture shock because not only did I move from the suburbs to the city, I moved straight into the heart of Jane and Finch, like driftwood. 00:08:24.579 --> 00:08:27.430 And I've never lived that life. 00:08:27.459 --> 00:08:28.660 You know, I've never lived that life. 00:08:28.661 --> 00:08:41.110 I don't know how to explain it, but like, I've always, you know, come from the opposite of feeling like the opposite lifestyle, the opposite circumstances, the opposite trials and tribulations of what is, um, indigenous to that kind of community. 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:43.539 I've never experienced that growing up. 00:08:44.289 --> 00:08:56.460 So it was just a, a huge culture shock on so many levels, especially because I moved out with my then boyfriend, white mom, like my boyfriend was half white, half black, but raised by his white mom. 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:01.320 And I'm there living like my out life with this lady, son. 00:09:01.321 --> 00:09:07.259 Like, it was just, it was such a mind, mind F in Jane and Finch. 00:09:07.830 --> 00:09:11.850 Yes, they, oh, it was that it was terrifying. 00:09:12.750 --> 00:09:17.700 It was terrifying, but I was safe if that makes sense. 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:21.269 Like, I didn't really feel physically in danger, but so 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:26.269 Yeah, it was safer there than you were back out in the Durham region. 00:09:27.019 --> 00:09:31.159 I don't think physically I was more safe, but mentally I could just be myself. 00:09:31.160 --> 00:09:35.720 Like the people around, like in the home knew my truth and they, they accepted it. 00:09:35.750 --> 00:09:36.740 They loved me for it. 00:09:36.980 --> 00:09:46.669 I was, I didn't feel like I was an inconvenience being there, but, um, it was just so different that like my boyfriend's mom knows that I'm her son's boyfriend. 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:47.870 And like, I don't know. 00:09:47.870 --> 00:09:51.230 It was just, it didn't seem like it was a subject. 00:09:51.230 --> 00:09:53.059 Like it didn't come up really new. 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:54.649 It was just normal life. 00:09:54.650 --> 00:09:56.000 Which, which made me uncomfortable. 00:09:56.120 --> 00:09:58.429 Cause I wasn't used to being able to be myself. 00:09:58.970 --> 00:10:01.340 Did I hear you say, which made you uncomfortable? 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:02.450 Yes. 00:10:02.451 --> 00:10:03.529 It made me uncomfortable. 00:10:03.830 --> 00:10:08.120 Why I've never experienced that level of honesty before. 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:21.980 So I had to reckon with my own reality out loud, which I've never had to do everything up until then was in my head and sorting things out in my head and living in my life to make sure everyone else was happy, comfortable. 00:10:22.610 --> 00:10:25.940 Um, we went to church, I was always singing at church front and center. 00:10:25.941 --> 00:10:27.320 Like that was my gig. 00:10:27.321 --> 00:10:33.230 And then now I'm front and center with Imam and his family. 00:10:33.230 --> 00:10:38.750 And like, I don't know his sister, his nieces and nephews in the heart of like the hood. 00:10:39.309 --> 00:10:39.309 And 00:10:39.379 --> 00:10:43.039 Then you moved, what was it like when, when you discovered it? 00:10:44.330 --> 00:10:48.710 When I discovered church street, it was around the same time that I, that I met this boyfriend of mine. 00:10:48.711 --> 00:10:49.940 This was before he was outed. 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:52.220 I had turned 19. 00:10:52.669 --> 00:10:54.110 I looked very, very, very young. 00:10:54.110 --> 00:10:59.179 So I wasn't one of the kids that like snuck into the club because I know I already looked so young. 00:10:59.181 --> 00:11:00.350 It was, there'd be no point. 00:11:00.620 --> 00:11:08.659 So when I went to the club, I'd bring two pieces of ID, like my passport and my driver's license on my driver's license and something else. 00:11:08.660 --> 00:11:11.419 This was show them like truly I really am nightclubs. 00:11:11.779 --> 00:11:21.230 And most of the time they would really require both because they really, I looked stupid being at the club, but anyways, it was a Wednesday night I got in my car and I hightailed it downtown. 00:11:21.590 --> 00:11:24.379 It was snowing and I'm like, well, I'm going to go. 00:11:24.740 --> 00:11:26.629 I know like this is where I'm supposed to be. 00:11:26.870 --> 00:11:28.090 My people are inside. 00:11:28.100 --> 00:11:28.940 I just got to find it. 00:11:29.210 --> 00:11:33.330 They went to what was then called the barn on 10th street. 00:11:33.409 --> 00:11:35.269 It was the most terrifying experience. 00:11:36.200 --> 00:11:48.529 Um, there was just men on men everywhere, like lesbians and like every different color or size and everything was like, wow, it really you'd be like in the movies, girl, get outta here. 00:11:49.490 --> 00:11:52.639 So I hightailed it, I left, but I was back the very next week. 00:11:54.600 --> 00:12:10.649 And uh, yeah, it's been beautiful sense, especially like I'm still learning how to love myself and how to like be comfortable in the skin that I'm in and love, love the community that loves me, you know, but it's still a work in progress, but haven't looked back since, um, 00:12:10.740 --> 00:12:23.129 I know for me my own coming out process, um, it started when I felt comfortable enough to go to a gay party in port of Spain, Trinidad. 00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:36.059 And there was this, this, um, this fear about being seen at any event that has gay people. 00:12:36.419 --> 00:12:49.889 I don't know if, you know, if, if this is the experience for all of us, but even, even as we self identify as woman loving woman or man loving, man, there's almost a kind of a, a self. 00:12:51.419 --> 00:12:53.070 He teaches a, is a strong word. 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:59.370 But to me it's a kind of selfie because you don't want to be seen with other people like you. 00:13:00.059 --> 00:13:07.740 So you, you continue to do this, this, this hide and seek game because we in the, you know, Trinidad is, it's a small place. 00:13:07.740 --> 00:13:09.330 Everybody know everybody, right? 00:13:09.419 --> 00:13:20.700 So I know the moment I go to that party, I am saying to the whole of Trinidad that I am a gay woman, a lesbian, a zombie, all of that. 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:22.139 And so set. 00:13:22.140 --> 00:13:28.620 So then the moment I went to the party on Saturday night, by Monday morning, it's news, it's, it's the talk of the town. 00:13:28.950 --> 00:13:33.149 So that was my form of coming out with regards to coming out to family. 00:13:33.419 --> 00:13:49.470 Again, there was a kind of comfort level because both my brother and sister in Canada, they were gay and everybody knew that, but nobody here, um, challenge MOC, anything because, you know, there was seen as the, as the, the, the role models. 00:13:49.590 --> 00:13:52.830 So I felt a level of comfort. 00:13:52.950 --> 00:13:56.490 I had that level of, of security. 00:13:57.450 --> 00:14:00.059 So I started to have key parties. 00:14:00.061 --> 00:14:03.120 I was at a party promoter gay party promoter. 00:14:03.659 --> 00:14:13.799 So my coming out process, it was, it was easy in that, in that, as I said, I went to a party I was seen and everybody know now. 00:14:13.950 --> 00:14:18.299 And the tell the whole of the, the, the, the, the city, the town, what have you. 00:14:18.690 --> 00:14:21.450 So that was my, that was my comment out. 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:28.200 You know, it brings me back to the notion and the concept of coming out. 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:37.139 Do we, as black bodies and persons of color do or did we have the luxury of coming out? 00:14:37.769 --> 00:14:40.710 You know, I feel it is, uh, a white body concept. 00:14:41.250 --> 00:14:47.460 I mean, it could be almost a death sentence in some societies tomorrow. 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:53.960 Um, my coming out experience was, um, as I said earlier, it was traveling. 00:14:55.070 --> 00:14:56.570 Um, it's funny. 00:14:56.571 --> 00:14:59.929 I was talking with my sister about my coming out recently. 00:15:00.590 --> 00:15:06.470 Um, and she has different recollection of the occurrences, but long story short, I had a little boyfriend. 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:07.909 I was not out. 00:15:08.690 --> 00:15:12.200 Um, I would just say that he's my friend, you know, he's just my friend. 00:15:13.309 --> 00:15:20.629 Um, and I really only, like I had mostly girls girlfriends as in like girls that are friends growing up. 00:15:20.630 --> 00:15:28.159 So, um, every time the rumors of being gay came around, I would just obviously deny them as feminine as I was. 00:15:28.580 --> 00:15:32.299 And then my friends that were girls would also defend me from the guys. 00:15:32.419 --> 00:15:35.240 Cause I always had like the prettiest girls in my life. 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:42.470 So they would just defend me and the guys would kind of like off, um, because I'm best friends with their girls. 00:15:42.860 --> 00:15:49.970 So, um, eventually anyways, long story short, my sister, um, outed me. 00:15:51.019 --> 00:15:57.299 Um, she gave me the option saying, you know, I'm telling mom today, so figure out what you're going to do. 00:15:57.470 --> 00:15:58.190 I'm going to tell her today. 00:15:58.191 --> 00:15:58.700 I'm like, okay. 00:15:58.789 --> 00:16:01.159 So I just packed my bags and left. 00:16:01.940 --> 00:16:02.870 That was really it. 00:16:03.309 --> 00:16:07.450 So you didn't give your mom the benefit of the doubt of like accepting you as you are. 00:16:08.139 --> 00:16:08.440 No, 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:10.240 Because I already know what type of time we're on. 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.789 Like I grew up in this household. 00:16:12.791 --> 00:16:14.529 I know exactly what the expectations are. 00:16:14.530 --> 00:16:16.659 I know exactly what our culture says. 00:16:16.809 --> 00:16:17.320 We're African. 00:16:17.321 --> 00:16:18.700 Like my mom is from the SU tube. 00:16:18.909 --> 00:16:19.929 My dad's from South Africa. 00:16:19.931 --> 00:16:23.350 So I already knew, I already know where we stand. 00:16:23.710 --> 00:16:27.820 I already know how we've seen homosexuality wreak havoc on families. 00:16:27.850 --> 00:16:32.289 You know, it was the sexuality that made them a deep in the sexuality that made them a bad person. 00:16:33.129 --> 00:16:39.519 Um, so knowing, growing up that I was a part of that community, it just used to make me so sad. 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:44.200 Cause like, all that I know from what I've learned is how awful these people are. 00:16:44.201 --> 00:16:48.879 Not just sexually, but just entirely their sexuality has made them bad people. 00:16:50.230 --> 00:16:53.620 And so I was just like, okay, well, like I'm done for, I have to go. 00:16:53.620 --> 00:16:58.840 And I want to protect my mom, um, from being sad around me, cause I'm looking at him, he's probably going to break her heart. 00:16:58.841 --> 00:17:00.490 I just packed a suitcase and left. 00:17:00.580 --> 00:17:01.899 It was in the middle of a hurricane. 00:17:01.900 --> 00:17:08.589 Mind you, I made it to like the go train station on like, I should really just jump in front of this moving train, but I didn't. 00:17:08.740 --> 00:17:11.349 And then I was like based just on the street that night. 00:17:11.351 --> 00:17:13.450 And then I called my boyfriend and told him what happened. 00:17:13.451 --> 00:17:14.349 And he's like, just come here. 00:17:14.950 --> 00:17:16.359 What is that for you? 00:17:16.361 --> 00:17:16.930 Leslie? 00:17:17.980 --> 00:17:22.690 I was a little bit like Tamar while I was still living at home. 00:17:23.109 --> 00:17:31.150 I discovered the bus scene and I started going out to the bus and, and meeting people. 00:17:31.690 --> 00:17:37.690 But, um, I was still living under my mother's roof and I was the only girl child. 00:17:37.691 --> 00:17:48.519 And coming from the, this culture, the west Indian culture, I had a lot placed on my shoulders being new legal child. 00:17:48.849 --> 00:17:56.339 So moved out of home into my own apartment before I told my mother that I was a lesbian. 00:17:56.369 --> 00:18:00.480 I was already identifying as a, but she couldn't handle. 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:14.099 So I told her I was a lesbian and then the whole world fell apart because of the dishonor and the shame that I was bringing to the family that I had moved out. 00:18:14.101 --> 00:18:30.569 And the only time a girl child moves out of the family home is when she's getting married and I wasn't getting married and she was suspecting something was up because I had only female friends. 00:18:31.259 --> 00:18:34.619 So the actually hit the fan. 00:18:34.621 --> 00:18:43.740 When I told her and that I was working in a job where I was the PR person for the organization. 00:18:44.549 --> 00:18:53.789 And as my mother says, why do you have to wear all that lesbian paraphernalia when you're on public TV? 00:18:54.420 --> 00:18:59.220 So her friends started calling, which is sort of similar to what happened to you. 00:18:59.759 --> 00:18:59.759 Roma. 00:19:00.390 --> 00:19:08.789 When people would see me on TV, identifying as a dye, her friends would call and say, how could you let that happen? 00:19:08.790 --> 00:19:11.039 And she's bringing shame and dishonor. 00:19:11.609 --> 00:19:15.150 And I finally said to my mother, I'm not an ax murderer. 00:19:15.900 --> 00:19:18.420 You know, I'm not hurting anybody. 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:22.170 So why are you letting people bring you down like this? 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:26.700 So I said, if you will, if you want to live your life like that, that's fine. 00:19:26.701 --> 00:19:28.710 But this is not how I'm living my life. 00:19:29.250 --> 00:19:38.880 But in terms of safety, for me, it was safer for me to be out because then I knew what people thought about me than hiding. 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:47.369 So ever since I came out back in 76, I have been out and it's not always been safe. 00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:56.730 I've had a, I've been brutalized by the police for sitting in front of the rules, lesbian bar back in 1989. 00:19:57.450 --> 00:20:05.009 So I've had, you know, my engagements with the police simply because I'm an out of color. 00:20:06.750 --> 00:20:09.630 So I also want it to us. 00:20:10.349 --> 00:20:16.440 Uh, Naomi, what has it been like for you in terms of your coming out? 00:20:17.329 --> 00:20:18.019 You know, what? 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:22.130 My company out was a very interesting experience for me. 00:20:23.180 --> 00:20:40.279 Um, at the time, like I said, I had just discovered this world of ballroom, but even before that, I came out during the time I was attending church and it was heavy, the church and in Rica, uh, Christian ministry on campus. 00:20:40.970 --> 00:20:45.740 So I was, I was your typical evangelical Christian. 00:20:45.740 --> 00:20:53.859 I would go across by campus right in the word of Jesus, trying to convert souls, all of that. 00:20:56.230 --> 00:21:02.410 But for me, I had to, I knew that for years I had always felt different. 00:21:02.769 --> 00:21:10.480 I knew for years that I had been attracted to women, but I just did not feel safe in coming out. 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:17.619 Um, because I have a sister who is, the sister might be for me, she's an outlet Ambien. 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:33.549 And growing up in that environment, I did sh she was not allowed to tell me she was lesbian until I turned 18 because my dad was extremely, extremely Christian, extremely homophobic. 00:21:34.089 --> 00:21:42.190 And he would always tell me that being gay was a white, that black people were not allowed to be gay whatsoever. 00:21:43.380 --> 00:21:49.349 I went through my life just thinking something was wrong with me until my sister came out and was like, Hey, I'm gay. 00:21:49.470 --> 00:21:49.619 You know? 00:21:49.710 --> 00:21:51.660 It's like, oh, that makes sense. 00:21:52.230 --> 00:21:53.099 Oh, okay. 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:58.319 And then my dad was the one to sit me down and say to me, Naomi, are you gay? 00:21:59.069 --> 00:22:05.200 And I was like, uh, no, no. 00:22:05.250 --> 00:22:06.690 I think that's a correct answer. 00:22:06.900 --> 00:22:08.460 I think that's a correct answer is no. 00:22:09.539 --> 00:22:13.500 Um, and he said to me, I will never forget this. 00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:15.630 He looked at me, he said to me good, cause I couldn't handle. 00:22:17.700 --> 00:22:27.539 So that put me back in the closet for a little bit of time, because I was like, I can't come out to him because he's going to lose his everlasting mind. 00:22:29.130 --> 00:22:31.140 Um, so I didn't come out to him right away. 00:22:31.500 --> 00:22:36.630 I first came out to my church in, uh, posts that it was doing. 00:22:37.500 --> 00:22:42.569 Um, I did a Christian blog at that time and I came out on my Christian blog. 00:22:43.349 --> 00:22:48.119 And then I told my mother who was a lot more accepting and willing to hear me out. 00:22:49.500 --> 00:22:55.140 Um, and she was just like, I just want you to make sure about this before you go and tell the rest of the world. 00:22:56.460 --> 00:22:58.529 Um, and then she helped me tell my dad. 00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:02.339 Um, and then they went to counseling for it. 00:23:03.150 --> 00:23:05.490 My mom didn't want to mess me up further. 00:23:06.089 --> 00:23:17.130 So she took time to really figure out how to deal with her own emotions of loss around the expectations of me being gay. 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:19.650 And now what did that mean as her daughter? 00:23:20.339 --> 00:23:28.380 So she needed to process that in her own therapy before she really wanted to get it right. 00:23:28.470 --> 00:23:30.119 And she did get it right eventually. 00:23:30.990 --> 00:23:37.470 Um, and she was able to help my dad get it right as well, but they needed to call the counseling and they need to talk about it. 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:40.440 They needed to set rules for what that would look like. 00:23:41.430 --> 00:23:44.579 Um, so yeah, that was sort of like my coming out of the experience. 00:23:45.140 --> 00:23:45.710 It's so funny. 00:23:45.711 --> 00:23:45.920 Sorry. 00:23:45.921 --> 00:23:50.839 I met nail me one of my first time, probably like my second or third time at the club. 00:23:50.990 --> 00:23:59.569 Maybe the third time I met Naomi and I am today years old when I found out Naomi's sister is gay because she's one of my best friends. 00:23:59.570 --> 00:24:00.380 I just didn't know. 00:24:00.650 --> 00:24:11.390 But, um, that's also some of the beauty that I find beauty and curses I find in this community is that because we're black people and we know how our families are culturally. 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:16.099 We don't really, you have a best friend for 20 years and still never meet their mom. 00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:18.740 You know, stuff like that. 00:24:18.740 --> 00:24:21.829 Especially in ballroom, you don't even use each other's government names. 00:24:22.339 --> 00:24:23.869 We use whatever names you tell us to use. 00:24:23.990 --> 00:24:27.109 If you think the name is pixie dust, your name is pixie dust for us to realize. 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:33.049 So sometimes you'd have situations where we're with somebody every day of the week, because of how ballroom is the community. 00:24:33.380 --> 00:24:37.789 It's chosen family we're with somebody and then a medical emergency happens or they're incapacitated. 00:24:38.059 --> 00:24:40.160 And that the ambulance comes like, what's her name? 00:24:40.161 --> 00:24:41.809 Or like, honestly, her name is queen. 00:24:42.109 --> 00:24:44.329 I don't know what her name is by her name is queen. 00:24:44.509 --> 00:24:45.589 I thought probably said she was your friend. 00:24:45.619 --> 00:24:48.859 Honestly, she is my friend, but her name is queen. 00:24:48.950 --> 00:24:51.410 And it wasn't until she woke up, but we found out her name was Christina. 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.789 But, um, I think that makes it a bit challenging in this community. 00:24:55.790 --> 00:25:08.359 I remember also one of our friends in the community committed suicide and none of us even knew where to go for a funeral or anything because we don't know his family, his family doesn't know us. 00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:09.890 Yeah. 00:25:09.950 --> 00:25:10.549 Thanks for sharing. 00:25:11.049 --> 00:25:11.410 I just 00:25:11.410 --> 00:25:22.990 Wanted to talk just very briefly when, uh, Naomi mentioned about two mothers saying only white people, uh, gay it's interesting. 00:25:23.230 --> 00:25:28.900 Cause my mother said the same thing and also wanted me to go for counseling. 00:25:29.349 --> 00:25:46.059 And it ended up with a psychiatrist saying to my mother, you are the one who needs help to understand and accept Leslie's, uh, gender identity, which back in 1977 was huge. 00:25:46.060 --> 00:25:50.500 I had no concept of what gender identity was back then. 00:25:50.500 --> 00:25:55.210 I was already identifying as a, but that's what the psychiatrist said. 00:25:55.660 --> 00:26:05.019 So it's really interesting when you're a black or a person of color your family with the first thing they think of is that's a white people thing. 00:26:06.130 --> 00:26:12.880 So yes, dumb question, but I can't be the only listener that's has this question. 00:26:13.180 --> 00:26:15.400 What is the difference between a and a lesbian? 00:26:16.299 --> 00:26:19.809 For me, a is a political lesbian. 00:26:20.890 --> 00:26:26.289 That's how I have embraced that identity. 00:26:27.609 --> 00:26:30.670 Explain though, what is political lesbian? 00:26:31.269 --> 00:26:37.599 So back then women would identify as gay or lesbian or. 00:26:38.740 --> 00:26:43.000 So if you were gay, you were not politically active. 00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:47.880 If you're a lesbian, you're more on the political spectrum. 00:26:48.150 --> 00:26:57.509 If you're a you're in, you're in the people's faces about protesting, especially against the police. 00:26:57.930 --> 00:27:00.809 So that's why I then defy as a. 00:27:01.230 --> 00:27:04.200 I'm a radical political activist. 00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:06.000 Lovely. 00:27:06.569 --> 00:27:07.140 Thank you. 00:27:07.710 --> 00:27:08.579 You're welcome 00:27:10.099 --> 00:27:10.099 Tomorrow. 00:27:10.130 --> 00:27:10.670 Trust me. 00:27:10.671 --> 00:27:12.170 I asked that question before, 00:27:12.170 --> 00:27:12.349 Right? 00:27:13.430 --> 00:27:19.099 Um, so I believe with all these terms, like even when people ask me what I identify as I'm like, I don't know a cat, like I don't care. 00:27:20.930 --> 00:27:26.059 As a matter of fact, um, the word is a word that I've now come to embrace. 00:27:26.060 --> 00:27:40.640 But when I just came to this country, um, in 1999, I could not identify with the word because I always said there's nothing about my sexual orientation, my gender identity. 00:27:40.641 --> 00:27:42.349 There's nothing odd about that. 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:45.019 And back home quit. 00:27:45.049 --> 00:27:49.640 When, when you told that you quit, it was, it was again the wrong Atari. 00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:53.210 And, um, and, and I never liked the word. 00:27:53.211 --> 00:28:08.000 And I came here and realized that we have, you know, in north America there was a reclaiming of the word and it was, you know, you know, almost fashionable and politically correct to use the word and I refused to use it. 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:22.369 And I hated when anyone asked me if I was, you know, but of late, uh, probably in the last five years or so I have come, I've come to terms with the word and embrace it for what it is. 00:28:22.371 --> 00:28:39.109 But you know, again, one of those labels, I couldn't deal with the Wolf and lesbian, even lesbian is a word that only recently I started to, you know, embrace, you know, I was quite comfortable saying that I will, I'm a gay woman, the 00:28:39.109 --> 00:28:42.859 Word, the word homosexual, or homosexuality scares me. 00:28:43.069 --> 00:28:45.559 Cause that's how they would, that's what they would call it in church. 00:28:46.009 --> 00:28:48.500 And the way we would talk about it would terrify me. 00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.500 So homosexuality is my trigger word, your trigger. 00:28:54.890 --> 00:28:55.789 It's not my trigger. 00:28:55.790 --> 00:28:58.880 What is the word that I would most likely embrace? 00:28:59.960 --> 00:29:02.240 Um, because I'm a woman loving woman. 00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:06.799 So, um, whereas homosexual was always towards the men. 00:29:06.800 --> 00:29:12.109 I, I embraced it as a woman as well, you know, because I said, I'm a homosexual. 00:29:12.740 --> 00:29:12.740 Yeah. 00:29:12.769 --> 00:29:14.630 But oh God, the word lesbian. 00:29:17.059 --> 00:29:20.180 And of course Zami, those were my trigger words. 00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:29.930 And I w I found, I found it very, um, um, almost soothing to see that I am a gay woman. 00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:51.579 So that brings me back to, to, to, to Leslie again, I would like for you to share, because you you've been in Toronto longer than I, that I am, but don't want you to share a time or a story of persecution that you would have experienced in the workplace on a count again of your gender identity 00:29:52.259 --> 00:30:02.940 In the last place where I worked, which was rec women's counseling referral and education center, which is a joke that I used to make. 00:30:03.450 --> 00:30:08.970 The director made me a wreck and it was run by a white lesbian collective. 00:30:09.690 --> 00:30:13.559 And I was the only outlast Ambien of color. 00:30:14.309 --> 00:30:20.400 And a situation happened where I was accused of sexual harassment. 00:30:20.549 --> 00:30:31.589 And it was, the churches were false, but they needed to blame somebody for what was happening because there was a black lesbian involved. 00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:34.140 So they blamed me. 00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:44.910 And as a result, I lost seven years from 2000 to 2006, I lost my job. 00:30:44.940 --> 00:30:46.769 I almost lost my life. 00:30:47.309 --> 00:30:52.200 I went into a tailspin because of how I was treated in this workplace. 00:30:52.890 --> 00:30:57.660 And I almost died because of alcohol poisoning. 00:30:58.380 --> 00:31:02.819 And I was persecuted because I dared to speak up. 00:31:03.390 --> 00:31:09.869 And these white lesbians who ran this organization use me as the scapegoat. 00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:18.779 And this happens in a lot of places when lesbians of color dare to speak up about what's happening in the workplace. 00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:30.779 And last night I was almost in tears because I thought I had only lost three is when I first came out when I was involved with that woman when I was in university. 00:31:30.780 --> 00:31:40.380 And then I realized I lost all those years, they lost seven years and all I did was drink and I was in a severe depression. 00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:49.769 And then I ended up in a coma and then I lost another three years recovering from the coma and getting my life back. 00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:57.000 So it doesn't take much, you know, and, and this is women doing it to each other. 00:31:57.480 --> 00:32:01.829 These were white lesbians doing this to a lesbian of color. 00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:11.609 So, you know, we really need to be more kind and more caring and more compassionate with each other. 00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:21.509 I do recognize and understand that notion of, you know, that heat, you know, that, that glow between one another, not being kind to each other. 00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:32.970 And I remember I, myself, you know, when I just came to this country in 1999, I wanted to attend about house because everybody was talking about this bottles thing. 00:32:33.539 --> 00:32:39.380 And the one night that I decided that, yes, I am going to the bath house. 00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:55.579 A friend of mine kind of[inaudible] me away from doing so, because I think she, she basically instilled fear in me by saying that it's not a safe space, because you could get meningitis. 00:32:55.640 --> 00:32:57.230 It's not safe, it's not healthy. 00:32:57.559 --> 00:33:13.579 And I think is that what, what, um, what frightened me and kept me awake at night from going to the bath house and lo and behold, the next day it was headline news that the bat house was raided by the police and, you know, X amount of women were arrested and that sort of thing. 00:33:13.910 --> 00:33:24.980 So I was happy that I didn't go that night because I would have been quite, um, a shameful thing to be in the country for less than a year, you know, to be arrested in a bad house would not have been a nice thing. 00:33:24.980 --> 00:33:45.410 So I was happy that I didn't go, that's a good way to segue into the fact that, you know, we are all standing on the shoulders of those bodies who suffered the shame of the woman bath houses back in the day, the woman, bad house reeds, they abuse the insults back in the day on a count of being a or lesbian. 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:54.410 So Leslie, I have that seniors, uh, are now finding themselves having to go back in the closet. 00:33:54.910 --> 00:34:02.319 We're going back into the closet because we're afraid, especially now during COVID. 00:34:02.769 --> 00:34:12.579 And many of us are in long-term care homes and you know, how many seniors have died and how many of those seniors are seniors. 00:34:13.090 --> 00:34:28.900 So we have to choose between being our true, authentic selves or hiding in order to receive good health care, because there's no training for staff in long-term care homes or nursing homes. 00:34:29.289 --> 00:34:39.550 And that's where many of us are ending up, especially lesbians because many older lesbians are living on the brink of poverty. 00:34:40.090 --> 00:35:02.530 So when you end up in any kind of a care facility where people are already a homophobic transphobic, and you end up in this place and you are depending on people to take care of you, and they're just as whole bacon homophobic and transphobic as people out in the real world, you're literally trapped. 00:35:03.070 --> 00:35:08.590 So that's why we are going back into the closet in, in huge, huge numbers, 00:35:09.250 --> 00:35:13.300 Tamar and Naomi, who I will consider my youth here today. 00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:22.420 How do you boat engage with all without persons as myself and the lesbian who came before you? 00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:27.489 Is there any kind of communications between the two groups? 00:35:29.619 --> 00:35:30.190 It's interesting. 00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:40.920 I've been wanting to say this since we started is a complete honor and privilege to be here with two of our elders talking about issues, because a lot of us lived black community. 00:35:40.980 --> 00:35:43.289 When we lose our families, we also lose grandparents. 00:35:43.291 --> 00:36:05.610 We also lose our uncles, but also those, our aunts, we lose like, um, the, the traditions of like passing down legacies and, and stories that are very few elders that we really do have in the ballroom community here in Canada, or that I see coming around, um, black, young, people. 00:36:05.610 --> 00:36:06.570 And I'm not sure. 00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:23.730 And because I also came late to the community in comparison to some of my friends, but like, it's something that is so necessary, I think for all of us to come together, because like, you guys are still a part of that legacy, hearing these stories of what happened in the seventies or the eighties, Suffolk that is so necessary. 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:31.050 Because as we talk, even when you're talking about the raid at the bath house, I'm the I'm here assuming that this isn't Trinidad. 00:36:31.260 --> 00:36:34.860 Like I, the whole time you're talking like, wow, try it out and sound so ghetto. 00:36:34.860 --> 00:36:35.820 Like, how could they do this? 00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:39.150 Like in 2000 and then said, Toronto, I'm like, no way. 00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:46.110 So it's these things that I think that we need to speak about because we need it. 00:36:46.139 --> 00:37:00.269 You know, we need, we need these kind of connections with that age demographic, even, even when, um, Leslie was talking about seniors, aging out, basically, and having to go back into the closet for their own safety. 00:37:00.659 --> 00:37:07.739 I don't even know where to find the older people, the ones that have survived aids, at least because I would like to do something. 00:37:07.740 --> 00:37:11.070 And like a lot of the people don't have grandkids or kids. 00:37:11.070 --> 00:37:15.659 Like I might not have kids or grandkids, but you don't have any family that's going to come and visit you. 00:37:15.661 --> 00:37:16.320 I can come. 00:37:17.380 --> 00:37:35.280 You want someone to teach me how to cook, teach me this, teach me that, like, those are things that are stripped away from older women and older men, because a lot of them don't have kids of their own to pass these things down to, or they've been excommunicated from their families and they're basically othered in their family. 00:37:35.550 --> 00:37:42.449 So they don't have the opportunities to actually impart the knowledge and the life experience that is so valuable to the culture that we live in, you know? 00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:43.079 Yeah. 00:37:43.670 --> 00:37:48.650 Simple thing, especially now in the pandemic as simple a thing as going shopping for them go together. 00:37:49.510 --> 00:38:02.389 When I just came up from Trinidad in March, you know, and I was, you know, had to quarantine for 14 days and Leslie was all there up in my case, you know, you want anything in the grocery, you need anything to get, you know? 00:38:02.690 --> 00:38:12.050 Um, and she's a senior more senior than me, you know, so simple, simple thing as, you know, calling to find out, do what do you need? 00:38:12.110 --> 00:38:14.119 Do you need anything in the grocery today? 00:38:14.121 --> 00:38:15.050 I'm going to the grocery. 00:38:15.050 --> 00:38:16.039 I could pick up some groceries. 00:38:16.619 --> 00:38:23.090 Maybe one day we could figure out some kind of programming to bridge the gaps, because I know that I would personally love a grandma. 00:38:23.750 --> 00:38:25.880 I would love a great, I would love an auntie. 00:38:25.880 --> 00:38:27.440 I would love an uncle. 00:38:27.469 --> 00:38:35.030 I want to see that like, there's a 60 year old gay man that can come to my Christmas dinner and joke with us and drink with us. 00:38:35.130 --> 00:38:37.030 And I can sit on my boyfriend's lap. 00:38:37.059 --> 00:38:38.739 I can have my wig on or off. 00:38:38.740 --> 00:38:39.159 Yes. 00:38:39.161 --> 00:38:43.000 Tim or less talk about that to make the connections. 00:38:43.300 --> 00:38:43.300 Yeah. 00:38:44.429 --> 00:38:45.929 Did indeed not NAMI. 00:38:45.931 --> 00:38:46.409 What about you? 00:38:46.411 --> 00:38:47.130 What are you doing? 00:38:47.969 --> 00:39:00.059 Um, I think for me, it's really important when I'm like understanding and having these conversations is to also like, realize that there has been disconnect. 00:39:00.061 --> 00:39:00.989 You know what I mean? 00:39:01.230 --> 00:39:14.369 There's so much that has happened before even I came into the scene or even before someone like Tamer came into the scene that we don't hear these histories, we don't have these connections. 00:39:14.371 --> 00:39:30.239 We don't have these people to really guide us in the way that we should go, what I consider the seniors and the elders that we have in our community right now, they are like in their late forties, I would love to see people older than that. 00:39:30.300 --> 00:39:31.530 Still sharing the story. 00:39:31.539 --> 00:39:40.650 So wanting to come around, like, I feel like a lot of seniors, you know, come around these or may not feel invited. 00:39:40.650 --> 00:39:42.809 So I want to know how to bridge that gap. 00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:48.719 So when we're relating to one another, we can have that sixth and we can all work together. 00:39:49.170 --> 00:39:58.320 So yeah, I would definitely, definitely love to see like a mentorship or something happened along those lines where we can learn, we can hold each other accountable. 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:02.760 We can show up for each other the way that we need to in this community. 00:40:03.300 --> 00:40:05.039 That's what a goal is in mind. 00:40:05.670 --> 00:40:06.239 Yeah. 00:40:06.389 --> 00:40:18.179 And you know, that brings me to the notion of, you know, the peace of mind, actually, you know, the peace of mind of living out your, your life significantly and living out your sexual orientation. 00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:26.039 Um, I know for me, I must say that there was a kind of peace of mind that I was able to achieve. 00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:44.219 Once I landed in this country, you know, I spent so much time lying and hiding prior to coming to this country, that once I got here, there was, uh, as I said, this, this peace of mind of living out loud and proud. 00:40:45.750 --> 00:40:46.170 Yeah. 00:40:46.349 --> 00:40:51.449 How about you Tamar living your life loud and proud. 00:40:52.559 --> 00:41:02.519 That's something that I'm still learning to do without getting emotional, um, because there's been different, I guess, metamorphosis in my life, there's the gay thing. 00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:12.840 And then there's the gender thing, um, that I still battle with, but, um, the whole team army off nuclear Tamar, the dog, Tamar Lou Baton thing. 00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:20.489 It's just, my mom only found out just over a year ago that I cross dress. 00:41:20.730 --> 00:41:22.500 You know, I'm a drag queen or whatever. 00:41:22.980 --> 00:41:26.760