WEBVTT 00:00:00.179 --> 00:00:02.330 Hi, my name is leZlie lee kam. 00:00:03.450 --> 00:00:05.429 And hello, my name is Ty Sloane, 00:00:06.150 --> 00:00:16.980 And this is season two of the Youth/Elders podcast, creating space for identities, histories, and perspectives across generations. 00:00:20.929 --> 00:00:26.539 This season takes a look at personal stories of coming out, navigating identity and finding home 00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:36.350 While also discussing the impact of institutional spaces and activist movements on the very places we find community. 00:00:37.070 --> 00:00:45.439 This season's episodes are curated and recorded by myself, Ty Sloane, lezlie lee kam, Naomi Bain, Bear Bergman and Rhoma Spencer. 00:00:46.429 --> 00:00:55.969 Most of our recordings were made in Toronto on the traditional territories of the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat, and treaty territory of the Mississaugas of the credit. 00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:01.909 The conversation you're about to listen to is hosted by myself, Ty Sloane and Naomi Bain. 00:01:02.329 --> 00:01:11.540 We're joined by guests, Adam Benn and Ravyn Wngz who share some thoughts about community organizing, institutional accountability, and how they sustain themselves in their activism. 00:01:17.209 --> 00:01:26.750 I'm wondering if we can do a little bit of an introduction and identify your pronoun or any other identities or experiences that you'd like to before we dive in. 00:01:27.590 --> 00:01:40.219 So Ty, they/them, I'm an Anishinaabe, Chinese, Irish, Greek, and Scottish mixed race, Two-spirit complexity moving through Tkaronto and I'll pass it over to Naomi. 00:01:41.659 --> 00:01:43.909 Hey Ty, thank you for passing it over to me. 00:01:44.060 --> 00:01:45.799 My name is Naomi. 00:01:45.801 --> 00:01:47.840 I use they/them pronouns. 00:01:47.870 --> 00:01:53.629 I am black diasporic: my parents have roots in the Caribbean. 00:01:53.780 --> 00:01:56.810 I am a mystic, I'm an artist. 00:01:56.900 --> 00:01:58.219 I'm a free thinker. 00:01:59.030 --> 00:02:04.790 I'm a professional nerd, and I'm really just here to dive deep into this conversation. 00:02:05.030 --> 00:02:06.920 I would like to welcome our guests today. 00:02:06.921 --> 00:02:09.500 We have Ravyn Wngz and Adam Benn. 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:11.900 Ravyn, would you like to go ahead and introduce yourself? 00:02:12.110 --> 00:02:12.800 Hello everyone. 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:21.710 Raven wings, Afro indigenous two-spirit trans women currently living in[inaudible] right now. 00:02:21.979 --> 00:02:29.360 I have lived over three different borders from you to Atlanta, Georgia, and now here in Toronto. 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:35.240 And so my experiences and sharing has come from those perspectives. 00:02:36.740 --> 00:02:48.409 Um, I'm also a member of black lives matter, Toronto and a co-founder of black lives matter, Canada, um, working in advocacy and dance and storytelling and burlesque and all the things. 00:02:49.550 --> 00:02:53.479 So let's have me here, Raven, Adam, would you like to go ahead and introduce yourself? 00:02:53.900 --> 00:02:55.009 My name is Adam Ben. 00:02:55.099 --> 00:03:04.810 I use the pronouns, he, him and I identify as a black living with disabilities and similar to folks here, uh, really looking forward to enjoying the conversation. 00:03:04.811 --> 00:03:14.379 A lot of the work that I've done has been in institutions and, you know, as we talk about white institutions and organizations, but a lot of my work has also been activism, right? 00:03:14.381 --> 00:03:19.629 So I'm looking forward to hearing again how we can marry the two together, if they could be married together. 00:03:20.819 --> 00:03:21.599 Thank you for that. 00:03:22.050 --> 00:03:23.699 Ty, where do you want to start this conversation? 00:03:25.289 --> 00:03:26.520 That's a good question. 00:03:26.819 --> 00:03:28.050 There's so much to unpack. 00:03:28.860 --> 00:03:30.120 There's so much to unpack. 00:03:30.689 --> 00:03:31.770 There's so much time back. 00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:42.000 I guess I'll start off with, um, the interesting thing with my art journey and my own queerness is that both activism and arts pulled me to Toronto. 00:03:42.330 --> 00:03:51.539 So art community and identity pulled me here for sure buddies in bad times as an institution pulled me here because I knew it was the institution of the city. 00:03:51.900 --> 00:03:58.050 And then Raven wings, you pulled me here with the BLM chapter protests in 2016. 00:03:58.500 --> 00:04:03.120 And I remember seeing that on the news that folks could speak out. 00:04:03.419 --> 00:04:13.860 Folks could hold other folks accountable, print Toronto, as an example, felt like this mega thing that at the time didn't even think it was touchable or approachable. 00:04:13.889 --> 00:04:21.240 And I remember, I remember seeing you and Rodney and other folks with your veils and being like, this is the moment. 00:04:21.420 --> 00:04:22.949 This is a moment for me. 00:04:22.951 --> 00:04:24.899 And a big moment that was happening. 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:31.680 And I remember, cause I felt so lost as an individual right after POS had happened that month. 00:04:33.029 --> 00:04:43.230 Um, but I remember for the first time being confronted with all aspects of my communities and then institutions pulling me to the city. 00:04:43.589 --> 00:04:53.009 And then what you were talking about, Adam, about what does it mean to marry and what does it look like when they become divorced or when they start holding each other accountable? 00:04:53.339 --> 00:05:03.269 So, um, I guess I'd be curious to know what does accountability look like and how has your experience with institutions been with navigating that 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:15.560 I think accountability for these organizations or these institutions, um, requires, uh, acknowledging their roots because all of these institutions, many of them started with community activism. 00:05:16.129 --> 00:05:27.019 And again, I think that's why, um, when you're in these institutions, you hold onto it so hard because you recognize how hard you have to fight in order to get that space or to get that institution. 00:05:27.021 --> 00:05:32.089 I think the challenge is that as it becomes more institutionalized, it loses touch with the community. 00:05:32.689 --> 00:05:37.910 Um, and again, this is where that rift comes, where the community actually then becomes a critique of these institutions. 00:05:38.149 --> 00:05:42.410 So, you know, how do we ensure that communication is still happening? 00:05:42.411 --> 00:05:42.589 Right? 00:05:42.591 --> 00:06:01.189 And I think, uh, institutions that do it well have, um, good connections with community, they have good advisory committees and that allows for some accountability, but it has to be in a way that allows for, um, people to actually have an ability, make transformative change, not just superficial type of inclusion. 00:06:02.829 --> 00:06:18.100 Thank you for that, Adam, uh, Raven speaking, something that I think about when, when we have these conversations about institutionalized spaces, um, they actually are reflections of the world we live in. 00:06:18.129 --> 00:06:33.910 They're not so different from what we have to experience when we're walking down the street, when we're on an app, when all, all these different things meant, teach us about the systemic oppression of black indigenous and people of color individuals. 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:40.720 And so an institution is only as, as accountable as its principles as its goals. 00:06:40.721 --> 00:06:49.839 If it's commitments, I think that there is, there's such, um, a popular narrative that's happening right now. 00:06:49.841 --> 00:06:57.310 And since 2020, where institutions are having these diversity workshops and conferences, and of course is black history month. 00:06:57.310 --> 00:07:12.670 So all the black artists are being hired more than ever and you know, all that, um, because they don't want to appear, um, as if they're not ahead of the times or, or with the times or a part of the times. 00:07:13.269 --> 00:07:17.709 Um, but I say this often, it's like, you can't really backseat drive your, your activism. 00:07:17.740 --> 00:07:26.500 And just as an institution, like you need to have a flexible understanding of your, your idea of change of growth. 00:07:26.829 --> 00:07:29.050 When we talk about accessibility, for example, right? 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:32.529 It's a journey like you have to learn, you have to grow. 00:07:33.069 --> 00:07:34.449 Um, conflict is a part of that. 00:07:34.451 --> 00:07:43.149 Sometimes when conflict comes up, when, when people call you out when community and say, Hey, you're not doing this, are you, you said you were doing this and you're not. 00:07:43.569 --> 00:07:46.810 Then it's an opportunity for you to meet that moment. 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:53.949 Um, sharing knowledge, sharing, understandings, misunderstandings, and then growing out of that behavior. 00:07:54.410 --> 00:08:02.410 I think that's required of folks to think a little bit beyond their own institutions and how their actual week impacting people. 00:08:04.339 --> 00:08:05.089 Thank you for that. 00:08:05.091 --> 00:08:08.449 I have a follow-up question for both of you. 00:08:09.110 --> 00:08:17.540 Do you think that institutions are willing to do the work that is required for them to hold themselves accountable? 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:26.149 Raven, you brought up a really good point when you see things like black history month and all of a sudden black people are being hired, left, right. 00:08:26.151 --> 00:08:26.779 And center. 00:08:27.290 --> 00:08:28.490 What happens after that? 00:08:29.779 --> 00:08:43.639 How do you feel these things come into play and is this just to save face or people actually trying to actively divest from these things that they have created? 00:08:44.700 --> 00:08:48.960 I do want to sort of recognize that in 2020, there was a bit of a shift that happened. 00:08:49.019 --> 00:08:49.740 Fundamentally. 00:08:49.740 --> 00:08:56.850 I have to sort of talk about in my, my circles in my world, uh, and recognizing that, uh, part of it, I think is the pandemic. 00:08:56.940 --> 00:09:02.039 The fact that people were at home had no choice, but to sort of watch what was happening. 00:09:02.610 --> 00:09:05.970 Um, the ways in which we were interacted was limited and changed. 00:09:06.149 --> 00:09:13.679 So I feel that fundamentally there is a different understanding of, uh, systemic racism in particular. 00:09:14.220 --> 00:09:19.169 So at least in my circles, I see that people want to try to change. 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:37.259 Um, however, again, whenever we talk about things in abstract, people can agree, but when you talk about that in regards to themselves and, uh, you know, the anti-black racism that potentially exists within them and the bias that exists within them and the transphobia makes us spin them and the homophobia that no one wants to acknowledge that. 00:09:37.259 --> 00:09:40.049 So again, people need to do the work, right? 00:09:40.051 --> 00:09:44.879 But ultimately there needs to be a motivation for those people to do some of that work. 00:09:45.389 --> 00:10:03.330 And so that's the other thing too, I'm sort of grappling whether it is a good thing now, because I think back to the black lives matter, uh, interrupting the pride protest and being an institution and not necessarily being able to say anything, uh, whereas now institutions are like, you know, posting it on their walls, right? 00:10:03.331 --> 00:10:06.179 So is it, is it a better thing? 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:35.190 Is that a better thing that we have that recognition and that understanding, recognizing that, you know, one of the challenges with institutions is that they start to take these things that the community used to own, um, and start to transform it right at the same time, how do we create this systemic change without those institutions, recognizing that those institutions are bedrocks and foundations of our institutions and our systems. 00:10:35.690 --> 00:10:37.559 And I do sort of recognize that there is a change. 00:10:37.830 --> 00:10:46.769 There's a shift that's there at least that I've noticed in my world, it's a bit of a different world in terms of the leverage that we have around being able to have some of those conversations. 00:10:46.860 --> 00:10:50.820 But again, I think I recognize that people themselves don't want to change. 00:10:50.909 --> 00:10:53.610 And that's the hardest piece, right? 00:10:53.610 --> 00:10:56.250 If they don't want to change, how do we actually get changed here? 00:10:56.629 --> 00:11:00.919 So Sonya, Renee Taylor said this, and I think it applies to this moment. 00:11:02.450 --> 00:11:05.690 Um, it's easier to, to cry than to change. 00:11:06.830 --> 00:11:11.809 And so people can show up with their outrage, uh, over St. 00:11:11.811 --> 00:11:14.179 George Floyd or affordable care homes. 00:11:14.181 --> 00:11:23.929 Right now they can have the outreach, but without action, without actually committing to offering solutions, showing up, not knowing what the solutions are. 00:11:24.139 --> 00:11:28.639 I find that people don't really want to change people like who they are. 00:11:28.730 --> 00:11:29.840 They like what they have. 00:11:29.990 --> 00:11:32.960 You know, a lot of folks feel like, oh, I've worked so hard. 00:11:33.259 --> 00:11:35.690 And now I have all these, these things. 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:39.950 Whereas we're all sitting in different relationships to privilege. 00:11:40.070 --> 00:11:48.379 And I think for me, these institutions, how privileges, how have these privileges of resources have the privileges to be able to reach out to you? 00:11:48.380 --> 00:12:04.299 Naomi, are you, Adam, are you tie all of us to, to have us in for a moment to make everyone feel good about what they believe that they're a part of, um, as opposed to not making it one weekend, you, you can change your behavior. 00:12:04.299 --> 00:12:06.519 In one conversation is like going to therapy. 00:12:06.520 --> 00:12:08.259 You think you're going to deal with it in one session. 00:12:08.260 --> 00:12:10.990 That's not actually how this thing works. 00:12:10.990 --> 00:12:11.320 Right? 00:12:11.321 --> 00:12:14.980 And so people want quick fixes, which is literally white supremacy, right? 00:12:14.980 --> 00:12:25.389 And so you can't fix white supremacy with the same tools of it like ignorance or, um, you know, you're never satisfied, whatever, whatever question is. 00:12:25.390 --> 00:12:33.220 And things come out of that even as, as a member of black lives matter Toronto, there are folks who disagree with the things that we do. 00:12:33.549 --> 00:12:36.850 You brought up Thai, um, 2016 pride pupil. 00:12:37.029 --> 00:12:38.080 We're not down for that. 00:12:38.649 --> 00:12:39.039 Naomi were there. 00:12:39.041 --> 00:12:40.870 People were not down for that. 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:42.820 People are to hear for it. 00:12:42.821 --> 00:12:47.289 Now you see, so, so history is important, right? 00:12:47.350 --> 00:12:52.419 We need to remember what people were actually saying, how our lives were actually threatened. 00:12:52.421 --> 00:12:54.879 After that moment, people were out into their families. 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:57.100 People like risked quite a lot. 00:12:58.179 --> 00:13:00.519 Um, stop after operate just the same way. 00:13:01.330 --> 00:13:04.840 Um, have the best health raids here fighting against the police. 00:13:05.169 --> 00:13:07.360 Vetting needs to police at Stonewall in New York. 00:13:07.509 --> 00:13:16.990 And what I find is now that it's popular to be on the bandwagon for BLM, we were able to terrorist all kinds of things after that. 00:13:17.769 --> 00:13:21.250 And so people were like, why are they stopping gay stuff? 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:34.029 Like isn't this about blackness and completely erasing the, the sort of intersections that we sit with, um, as man folks, black folks, trans folks as all the different things that we are and become afraid. 00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:36.850 And so, yes, it was such an important moment. 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:47.950 Yes, we, we opened this conversation or continued this conversation more appropriately of civil rights, trans rights, all the inclusion, but it's similar to how I think about black history month. 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:53.200 And now everyone loves Martin Luther king, but when he was alive, he was the most hated man in America. 00:13:53.500 --> 00:13:57.789 And everyone wants to sort of pretend that that wasn't a thing or that he wasn't assassinated. 00:13:57.820 --> 00:14:14.559 And so I feel like it's always this month of talking about the people who are acceptable to be leaders of that time period, the faces of that time period, never really thinking about everything else that was happening alongside that to the indigenous movement that was happening everywhere. 00:14:14.889 --> 00:14:15.460 You know what I mean? 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:30.190 The people who had to hide there's so much about Toronto, talk it on so that people don't realize like forest hill with the forest, for example, these things, then you sort of take for granted in 2020 for the sake of progress. 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:35.759 I think both of you hit some really important things on the head. 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:40.980 Raven, I wanted to address what you said about that protests for pride. 00:14:41.850 --> 00:14:55.309 That that was the scariest moment of my life being on that, float it, looking down and seeing the amount of white rage that was coming toward that. 00:14:55.759 --> 00:15:02.750 Even thinking about some of those same people that were raging at us now, trying to come in and be like, oh, well, I'm woke now. 00:15:02.750 --> 00:15:03.620 I get it now. 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:07.519 And I feel like there's so much fatness with that. 00:15:08.419 --> 00:15:15.649 There's so much things that are in that conversation that I'm just like, Hmm, I'm not here for it. 00:15:16.970 --> 00:15:22.129 A lot of people put themselves at risk at risk if that moment. 00:15:24.669 --> 00:15:28.299 And I think that's where the accountability also comes because people need to see right. 00:15:28.509 --> 00:15:33.490 Uh, I'm thinking of that documentary that was made the name of it is escaping me. 00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:37.570 But again, a lot of it's centered around the black lives matter protests. 00:15:37.629 --> 00:15:39.070 And it talks about the black community. 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:44.620 There was a lot of footage that you, you saw the hatred in the eyes of the people, right? 00:15:44.679 --> 00:15:46.750 And so this is that accountability piece. 00:15:46.779 --> 00:15:55.120 How do we use that as a way to frame these conversations so that people can sort of recognize that this is not a, this isn't a nice thing. 00:15:55.149 --> 00:16:02.620 It's not like, you know, oh, we got a black lives matter is this is actually dealing with hatred trauma violence. 00:16:03.190 --> 00:16:15.840 Uh, but again, it requires people to take an, a mirror and look at themselves and reflect on the fact that those people who are screaming are also you, it, it changes and shifts in terms of how that interaction is, but it's still you, 00:16:16.149 --> 00:16:17.649 The effects are still happening. 00:16:18.190 --> 00:16:33.039 I think people think that it ended it, no, you know, um, we just released a lack mutual aid fund and the amounts of hate that came through our email from just doing that. 00:16:34.029 --> 00:16:34.870 Um, I'm a pessimist. 00:16:34.899 --> 00:16:37.240 I'm just gonna put that out there. 00:16:38.230 --> 00:16:51.039 And I, I feel like I I've, I have to be in a way, I don't have the same opportunity to sort of be gracious to, to anyone who woke up in 2020. 00:16:51.129 --> 00:17:07.839 And here's why, because for me, if, if what it would take is to witness someone's death that already happened and what it would take to understand that we are in a time period of a genocide of indigenous people, people already know that they celebrate Thanksgiving. 00:17:08.259 --> 00:17:08.980 You know what I mean? 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:13.779 And so I feel like what we need to tell the truth. 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:22.329 People actually need to be honest about where they were about how they feel so that we can have real movement, real change. 00:17:22.430 --> 00:17:24.519 People were, were dying, are dying. 00:17:24.789 --> 00:17:31.809 Still people believe that all these protests happen in that was really great, but the work happened after the protest. 00:17:32.140 --> 00:17:41.589 Actually everyone thinks it was a protest as the big job, but the job comes after when you have to sit with families and talk through their trauma. 00:17:41.650 --> 00:17:49.029 When you have to sit with families and lawyers and figure out resources and deportation, and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this. 00:17:49.500 --> 00:17:51.420 And so for me, it's convenient. 00:17:51.809 --> 00:17:53.130 It's too convenient. 00:17:53.339 --> 00:17:59.160 It's easy now, black lives matters, Nobel prize nominees, you know? 00:17:59.161 --> 00:18:02.220 And so now it's time to, to celebrate what we're doing. 00:18:02.221 --> 00:18:02.490 Now. 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:06.269 It's time to celebrate Stacey Abrams and all these people who are doing this work. 00:18:07.500 --> 00:18:12.599 Um, but, but for me, it falls really short. 00:18:13.109 --> 00:18:17.759 And Phillip had falls short of real acknowledgement and real change. 00:18:17.789 --> 00:18:24.119 And, and the reason why I'm saying that is because we heard about Brianna's Hillary dying in her home, right? 00:18:24.420 --> 00:18:25.380 We heard about Regis. 00:18:25.381 --> 00:18:27.690 Christian's key dying in her home. 00:18:28.470 --> 00:18:29.700 Andrew Lowe, whom died in his home. 00:18:29.819 --> 00:18:32.250 These are things that people know already. 00:18:32.609 --> 00:18:34.950 That's not even the stuff that people have no idea about. 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:44.130 So if that's not enough, it's act to get people not just talking about, but actualizing their politics and that's what's needed. 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.519 You actually have to be the abolitionists. 00:18:47.520 --> 00:18:55.170 You actually have to be the person who's going to interrupt the conversation and say, yo, this is not, we can't continue. 00:18:55.589 --> 00:18:57.089 That's racist. 00:18:57.930 --> 00:18:59.309 That's anti Asian regions. 00:18:59.369 --> 00:19:00.930 That's anti indigenous racist. 00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:02.009 That's anti-black. 00:19:02.309 --> 00:19:06.150 We just need to call things exactly what they are so that we can actually deal with them. 00:19:06.180 --> 00:19:13.769 We have a really horrible relationship to conflict, and we need to shift that. 00:19:13.770 --> 00:19:15.569 I don't think conflict is a bad thing. 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:17.130 I mentioned it a minute ago. 00:19:17.549 --> 00:19:20.400 I don't think that criticism is a bad thing. 00:19:20.930 --> 00:19:27.750 If we need to be able to be criticized and be able to handle that so that we can be more accountable to what we say we're about. 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:31.289 And so people need to get out of their egos. 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:33.960 It's important to let that stuff fall away. 00:19:34.380 --> 00:19:36.269 It's not solely about me. 00:19:36.270 --> 00:19:38.460 It's not solely about Raven in the, in the street. 00:19:38.461 --> 00:19:45.420 It's about every single person who, who sent this thing or how that conversation black lives matter is a continuation of the civil rights movement. 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.759 And that's why I say this stuff is not new Ruby bridges. 00:19:48.779 --> 00:19:52.170 The first black woman to go into a segregated school is still alive. 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:57.329 So I just feel like it's too soon to start celebrating people for, for doing what's easy. 00:19:57.330 --> 00:20:00.720 Now, when we say work, what do we actually mean? 00:20:00.900 --> 00:20:01.890 That means studying. 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:12.599 That means having these conversations, that means sitting with your group of friends and being like, Hey, how are we going to be not even less fat phobic, but not phobic at all? 00:20:12.779 --> 00:20:16.799 How are we going to change our way that we talk about mental wellness, right? 00:20:16.800 --> 00:20:24.750 Because that's also a huge piece of why black folks are dying in the street or why indigenous folks are criminalized in high percentages in these prisons. 00:20:25.529 --> 00:20:36.630 Um, because of our relationship to things that make us uncomfortable, or we feel like make us unsafe in the streets, people behaving irrationally. 00:20:37.019 --> 00:20:54.640 And so when we shift our behavior, our understanding, we move away from language like, um, mental illness and mental health, as opposed to mental wellness, holding people exactly where they are. 00:20:54.641 --> 00:20:57.910 So we're actually creating these new systems of care. 00:20:58.180 --> 00:21:00.640 And the thing is, we don't have to reinvent it. 00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:03.190 These things already exist. 00:21:03.191 --> 00:21:07.029 When you look at mad communities, they actually already know how to take care of each other. 00:21:07.430 --> 00:21:08.529 You, you see it happen. 00:21:08.710 --> 00:21:21.130 And so if we're actually looking to people who are the victims of these crimes and these, these things, we're actually already doing the work and people would recognize that these are the strategies that would be helpful. 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:32.319 You know, um, I was listening to an indigenous elder the other day who talked about talking on, so being a food forest, and that's how they learn how to be compassionate with each other. 00:21:32.589 --> 00:21:40.630 It's the lens, bringing food and medicines and good Oak and poison Oak and all these different information that the land had. 00:21:40.631 --> 00:21:44.619 We don't have a relationship to the land, and that's why we don't have a relationship to each other. 00:21:44.710 --> 00:21:58.539 So even for us who are displaced, even for us who are Africans, who were moved all over the Caribbean, all over the place, there, there is still a need for everyone to not just be aware of their own fight. 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:03.279 We're all in this whole white supremacist soup together. 00:22:03.289 --> 00:22:06.940 So how do we say, you know what, this is why I receive. 00:22:07.180 --> 00:22:08.289 This is what you receive. 00:22:08.410 --> 00:22:10.150 Both of that is really crappy. 00:22:10.180 --> 00:22:16.900 Let's figure out how we help each other, supporting each other to movies, not only conversations, but policies. 00:22:17.380 --> 00:22:21.759 So if there is no need for trainings, it's just built into how you work together. 00:22:22.990 --> 00:22:28.930 I like what you said there about a world where we do not have to train people to be good people. 00:22:30.339 --> 00:22:31.059 You know what I mean? 00:22:31.509 --> 00:22:56.500 I think that's something that when I look at these institutions and I think about how many diversity workshops I've sat in, how many I've taught, how many conversations I've had, how many times I've had to call anti-black racist out in organizations only to get only to get fired only to get removed only to get kicked out, pushed out only to be considered combative. 00:22:56.529 --> 00:23:00.519 The minute that you open up and you say, Hey, something's going on here? 00:23:00.609 --> 00:23:02.049 And we need to pay attention to this. 00:23:03.460 --> 00:23:14.829 And I think when we're looking at institutions, often these, uh, institutions that are dedicated to trying to build a new world around us that are the same ones that are perpetuating the most harm. 00:23:17.049 --> 00:23:21.970 Um, I'm wondering if either you Raven or Adam have anything to contribute to that. 00:23:23.490 --> 00:23:23.490 Yeah. 00:23:23.490 --> 00:23:24.339 I think that's real. 00:23:24.940 --> 00:23:39.609 When you see the pride sticker on an office building, you think, oh, these people are going to be welcoming to all trends, spectrum folks, but that's not usually the case. 00:23:39.940 --> 00:23:44.559 People are usually only open to people who they're comfortable with and people are very uncomfortable with each other. 00:23:45.380 --> 00:23:47.900 And so I feel like it hurts more. 00:23:48.049 --> 00:23:53.720 Actually it hurts more when you go into those spaces, like thinking, oh, we're going to be able to have these conversations. 00:23:53.721 --> 00:23:54.920 No, it's not going to be perfect. 00:23:54.921 --> 00:23:59.299 You know, we're, we're black and indigenous and people of color in the world, but you know, it's not completely safe. 00:23:59.329 --> 00:23:59.630 Right. 00:24:00.109 --> 00:24:04.579 But we go into these spaces and we're like, oh, they have this diversity plan. 00:24:04.789 --> 00:24:06.920 It seems like everyone knows what it is. 00:24:06.950 --> 00:24:08.059 Everyone can recite it. 00:24:08.690 --> 00:24:11.869 And they're just stickers. 00:24:14.630 --> 00:24:19.849 You know, they get you more money from the government because you are moving with what's. 00:24:19.970 --> 00:24:34.400 The people in the streets are saying, and there's this Russian, um, more tactic where if you can't meet a movement and you join it, that's why the police officers were kneeling because they wanted to like, make it ridiculous. 00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:37.910 So they join it to lessen the blow of it. 00:24:37.940 --> 00:24:41.390 And it did, at least opera singers are doing this thing. 00:24:41.420 --> 00:24:41.750 Yeah. 00:24:41.779 --> 00:24:45.529 People are chanting in the streets, everyone's got their BLM. 00:24:45.530 --> 00:24:53.720 T-shirts, they're still calling the police on people who are having mental health breakdowns, that they don't connect. 00:24:53.721 --> 00:25:03.710 That those two things are actually why we're marching in the street during a pandemic, because I would rather not do that. 00:25:03.950 --> 00:25:05.599 But you know what I mean? 00:25:05.601 --> 00:25:14.569 I can't be here like, oh, well, I'm not going to go out in the street and let people know how we feel or stand up for this person or this person, because people are dying literally in their homes. 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:16.720 You know? 00:25:17.230 --> 00:25:19.480 And so for me, I'm thinking about a program, right? 00:25:19.539 --> 00:25:20.529 I want to build a program. 00:25:20.530 --> 00:25:29.980 I want to build a new fellowship or whatever it is, what I mean by that is I'm not going to wait for, for someone to need ASL before provided. 00:25:30.190 --> 00:25:37.059 I'm not going to wait for us to have an anti-black racist ethic, a black love ethic. 00:25:37.060 --> 00:25:42.039 I should say, I don't want to wait until people are in the space and then start doing the work. 00:25:42.099 --> 00:25:43.779 We know that everyone exists already. 00:25:43.869 --> 00:25:45.849 Why not prepare for everyone to show up? 00:25:46.089 --> 00:25:58.119 I find that often in these diversity conversations, you're the first trans person they met the first two-spirit person, the first indigenous person that came across the first lesbian, the first black, whatever, LA all the things. 00:25:58.121 --> 00:25:58.480 Right. 00:25:59.019 --> 00:26:01.869 And so they don't have a context for what you're talking about. 00:26:02.259 --> 00:26:06.519 And so after they leave, they go back into their world and they're like, well, that was interesting. 00:26:08.230 --> 00:26:09.490 Maybe I'll watch it on Netflix. 00:26:09.970 --> 00:26:11.650 Sometimes it's not real yet. 00:26:11.890 --> 00:26:21.519 And so if your ecosystem of relationships of work environments, don't actually include all voices, then you're not going to have something that's diverse. 00:26:21.579 --> 00:26:23.920 You know, so many for us who are trans. 00:26:23.921 --> 00:26:31.329 And two-spirit like, all of the decisions and policies are made without us being in the room in the building, you know? 00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:33.309 And so I found that that happens a lot. 00:26:33.310 --> 00:26:36.250 You get to these conversations and like, so what do we do for trans people? 00:26:36.309 --> 00:26:38.079 Or even I'm like, well, ax, trans people. 00:26:38.980 --> 00:26:42.279 I am one of how many, I can't answer that question. 00:26:42.849 --> 00:26:49.380 I say, what I need, I can say that if I was in your office space, I wouldn't be able to use your bathroom. 00:26:50.609 --> 00:26:54.990 And so bringing me into your space so that you can be like, oh, Raven wings is here. 00:26:54.990 --> 00:26:55.680 Yay. 00:26:55.730 --> 00:26:57.390 You know, you were popular this year. 00:26:57.809 --> 00:26:58.559 We are woke. 00:26:58.950 --> 00:27:16.859 But at the same time, I can actually use the bathroom in public, which means I can exist in public, which means I'm invisible to you at the same time that you were using my hyper visibility in this time period, to make you seem like you understand what's happening because my speech made you feel good. 00:27:16.861 --> 00:27:25.259 And I keep saying this, but it's like, I don't know how I made anyone feel good unless you were being validated by what you already felt like you were saying in the world. 00:27:25.529 --> 00:27:28.019 But it was a heartbroken breaking moment. 00:27:28.049 --> 00:27:30.750 It was like this awful situation. 00:27:30.750 --> 00:27:31.740 It's still awful. 00:27:31.769 --> 00:27:33.240 And we're still fighting those charges. 00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:43.109 So when we have to stop wanting to be romanced by activism, you know, yes, we have to make it sort of joyous and full and all the kinds of things that it already is. 00:27:43.619 --> 00:27:45.750 But at the same time, it's going to be messy. 00:27:45.809 --> 00:27:49.440 And so when you're looking at racism, it shouldn't make you feel comfortable. 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:54.269 There's no part of this that should make you feel like, you know what, I'm okay with that. 00:27:54.270 --> 00:27:56.640 Now they're like, that doesn't make sense. 00:27:57.809 --> 00:27:58.349 You know? 00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:11.759 And so people are free to make mistakes because we have this carceral, punitive prison type behavior where we just like push people away who are problematic. 00:28:12.210 --> 00:28:14.970 And we invest in each other in really different ways. 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:17.849 What kind of relationships are you trying to build with people? 00:28:18.900 --> 00:28:23.009 You know, what kind of world do we want to have this world? 00:28:23.579 --> 00:28:26.910 The way we describe it right now was designed. 00:28:28.049 --> 00:28:30.660 It was the imagination of Europeans. 00:28:31.259 --> 00:28:36.269 And so why is it so hard for us to believe that we can imagine something better, something different. 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:51.029 And it's always sort of relying in their institutions, their systems that they stole from indigenous doctrines and teachings anyway, um, and did badly, obviously we're here before people were starving and hungry. 00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:58.289 There was a time where that it wasn't a thing and these institutions, um, should want to be a part of creating that. 00:28:58.410 --> 00:29:01.740 I think everyone doesn't identify this way, but we're all artists, right? 00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:03.029 We all get to paint. 00:29:03.269 --> 00:29:07.440 We all get to har and create something expensive. 00:29:07.441 --> 00:29:13.079 As a burlesque performer, I get to show you what humanity and a black trans woman looks like. 00:29:13.109 --> 00:29:14.460 And that's, that's great. 00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:21.420 This is what we have that opens up our spokes, our scope and our ideas, podcasts, like what you're doing now. 00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:26.009 So people can sort of ingest it in all these different ways. 00:29:26.309 --> 00:29:27.839 You know, you have to do your own work. 00:29:28.710 --> 00:29:32.400 Um, and you don't have to be in front of a movement to be impactful. 00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:37.019 You don't have to be the look of a, of a leader to be impactful. 00:29:37.020 --> 00:29:39.210 And I'm not the look of that, but when I'm out here. 00:29:39.269 --> 00:29:53.170 So I feel like there's so many ways we sort of stop ourselves from being as revolutionary as change-making, um, because we're all afraid to be uncomfortable and it's like, we're already uncomfortable. 00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:54.640 This is already crappy. 00:29:55.269 --> 00:30:00.099 Well, I mean, why don't we all just kind of fix it, get it in and do it. 00:30:00.220 --> 00:30:02.259 So that's, uh, how I feel 00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:04.240 For that. 00:30:04.269 --> 00:30:08.279 Adam, did you want to add anything onto that echoing 00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:11.809 That it really requires people to do the work, same thing, right. 00:30:12.089 --> 00:30:16.529 And, and it's not as mentioned having people come in and talk to you, you didn't know about that. 00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:18.779 There's Google, there's YouTube, right? 00:30:18.780 --> 00:30:23.160 Like all of this information is available to you if you really want it. 00:30:24.150 --> 00:30:30.119 Um, so again, I think that institutions can be well intentioned. 00:30:30.180 --> 00:30:34.920 And so there are institutions that do put in the work and recognize the institutions are made up of individuals. 00:30:34.921 --> 00:30:46.829 So again, it's really about people's individual capacity, but, you know, again, I'm, I'm swirling in, in places where there are institutions that are doing the work like they're really trying to do can transformative change. 00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:52.170 Um, and there's some institutions that are, you know, again, just putting a check mark on diversity inclusion equity. 00:30:52.710 --> 00:30:56.039 I think it's also about the intentions of the institutions. 00:30:56.040 --> 00:30:58.079 One of the things, and this was what you mentioned. 00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:08.190 I don't mean just in terms of your experience, working in organizations is that black people, indigenous people, racialized people, um, transcend and LGBT to STT. 00:31:08.191 --> 00:31:15.660 People generally get pushed out of many of these institutions due to their experiences of racism, homophobia, transphobia, all of the isms. 00:31:15.990 --> 00:31:28.619 And so the challenge is that again, we're having these institutions that, that really lacked diversity, because again, there's just not the representation sometimes in terms of the people that they're working with, who are demanding, that they change, right. 00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:44.460 Maybe they must change, but it's one of those eggs and chicken things where it's so difficult for that system to change as Raven, as acknowledges that the system has been designed in a way that is built off of European colonialism in every aspect. 00:31:44.549 --> 00:31:47.549 And so in some ways it's sort of how do you work within that? 00:31:47.550 --> 00:31:50.009 Or how do you sort of reimagine a new system? 00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:51.599 And can we even do that? 00:31:51.849 --> 00:31:58.529 I think that's why this coronavirus pandemic has been so influential because it shifted people's ideas of what they should be doing. 00:31:58.680 --> 00:32:00.990 Oh, I shouldn't be on vacation and I should be doing this. 00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:12.630 So that's why I think it's made these conversations about race, uh, racism, et cetera possible, because there's an opportunity to, to create that shift and that the window is closing though, right? 00:32:12.631 --> 00:32:22.170 As we move more and more towards quote-unquote reopening, I'd be very curious to see again, how these conversations do continue outside of, um, this time period. 00:32:22.500 --> 00:32:28.230 One thing I will say is that I I've worked with LGBT to sq organizations and I've also now worked outside of them. 00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:37.529 And I do think that LGBTQ organizations do do it better in terms of those equity, diversity inclusion initiatives, right. 00:32:37.710 --> 00:32:44.599 Again, I protect them when I there, but now being outside, I'm like, Ooh, this is, this is, this is terrible. 00:32:44.660 --> 00:32:45.410 This is horrific. 00:32:45.829 --> 00:32:54.740 In many of those institutions, there's an understanding and grappling around race, but outside of race, there is no understanding or grasp or concept. 00:32:54.769 --> 00:33:01.490 And so again, recognizing that as people, I think that there's a unique position in terms of understanding a lot of these oppressions. 00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:10.849 And re-imagining a world that can be very different, you know, even in terms of disabilities and how we even conceptualize that and trying to put all these labels on people. 00:33:11.210 --> 00:33:15.109 But for a lot of people, they haven't even started to think about these things yet again. 00:33:15.111 --> 00:33:24.589 And I realized that being in communities for such a long period of time, there's conversations that are happening in these circles, that, you know, when you talk about to people, they're like, what? 00:33:25.309 --> 00:33:29.029 So again, it's just one of those capacity things as well. 00:33:29.769 --> 00:33:32.410 Thank you for sharing that I'm mindful of our time. 00:33:32.411 --> 00:33:47.319 And I also want to offer a question to both of you because I'm an individual who came to the city five years ago and like rammed myself to get my hands in the dirt of the work. 00:33:47.829 --> 00:33:53.920 As an example, like now I'm an education coordinator for a trans inclusion anti-oppressive organization. 00:33:53.950 --> 00:34:03.400 And I also get to exist in this complex thing where I'm holding a lot of people of color, who aren't indigenous and black accountable in my personal life. 00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:17.260 And I'm holding all of the collectives that I'm part of accountable and myself, I'm now going to therapy and beginning to actively work on it, which is to say, I'm not necessarily a part of the 20, 20 beginning, but I will say that I am part of the 2016. 00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:19.869 I kind of woke up in various ways as well. 00:34:20.019 --> 00:34:25.690 Being able to finally name all the complex identities that I am accountable and harken from. 00:34:26.170 --> 00:34:34.630 And so the thing that I'm struggling with that sometimes it feels like every single day, I get to a moment where it just feels like my brain is so tight. 00:34:35.469 --> 00:34:38.380 I called out things to friends. 00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:48.789 And I have tried to explain things to my mother who, a white woman, and I've done the work at my work at all of my positions, all my jobs, and then my art. 00:34:48.820 --> 00:34:56.500 And then I, I go through these periods every single day where I just feel tightened and I just feel kind of pessimistic. 00:34:56.501 --> 00:34:58.210 Like, I don't know why I'm doing this. 00:34:58.210 --> 00:35:01.179 I don't feel like anyone's listening. 00:35:01.780 --> 00:35:05.500 And so this is the question that I have as we maybe wrap up. 00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:13.869 What has your individual care look like when navigating institutions and accountability? 00:35:14.650 --> 00:35:14.860 I 00:35:14.860 --> 00:35:35.409 Think, again, as you recommended having a mental health worker, a therapist has been very helpful for me having someone I can talk to, um, both in terms of my personal life, but also actually in institutions, I've had someone who's provided like clinical therapy or clinical supervision, so has made connections to the work that I'm doing, um, and racism. 00:35:35.411 --> 00:35:38.369 So I've had opportunities for, and in both ways. 00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:49.619 But I think the number one thing is circles of support circles of for me, black men, but also black women who I can draw on when I need that support. 00:35:49.621 --> 00:35:54.480 I think one of the challenges of last year was the cup was empty everywhere. 00:35:54.699 --> 00:35:59.340 Usually you can pull a little from here a little from there, but it was very difficult last year. 00:35:59.789 --> 00:36:07.469 I also think disconnecting, like I'm not very big on social media, but I think that sometimes stepping away from technology and media, there's a lot of negativity. 00:36:07.829 --> 00:36:10.530 There's a lot of focus on the negatives that are out there. 00:36:10.739 --> 00:36:15.989 And so for me, it's just being able to reconnect with the moment, reconnect with nature. 00:36:16.409 --> 00:36:38.909 For me, reconnect with my spirituality, reconnecting with the universe, I've gotten back into prayer, uh, spells, whatever you want to call it in terms of just engaging in different ways and recognizing that all of those are valid in exploring with that and using that as an outlet to process all of this trauma. 00:36:39.570 --> 00:36:42.480 Um, and, and to your point in terms of why you're doing this. 00:36:42.570 --> 00:36:46.079 And one of the answers that I have is that I don't know what else to do. 00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:51.719 It's just one of those things that, what else can I do, but fight this. 00:36:51.780 --> 00:36:55.980 And, uh, and the way that I fight it is sometimes I laugh because I push paper. 00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:58.199 This is what I can do to make a difference here. 00:36:58.201 --> 00:36:59.849 So that's what I'm going to do. 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:02.940 Even when, sometimes I'm like, is this actually making a difference? 00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:06.420 I'm not sure, but I know that what I can do is this. 00:37:06.449 --> 00:37:08.340 And I hope that that can make a positive change. 00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:08.989 Thank 00:37:08.989 --> 00:37:09.590 You for that. 00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:14.150 Um, had, um, you know, I, um, I agree all of that. 00:37:15.019 --> 00:37:16.340 We are not the only ones. 00:37:17.900 --> 00:37:33.530 There was so many people doing the work elders who are memory keepers, reminding us of those time periods through these oral traditions and these storytelling art forms that we frequent. 00:37:33.980 --> 00:37:39.139 And, and then there's unplugging plugging in and doing it in different ways. 00:37:39.170 --> 00:37:43.880 My brain is always working on something, but I do like, I watch tennis. 00:37:45.289 --> 00:37:53.090 I watch like little clips of Serena Williams winning, and it is therapeutic. 00:37:53.739 --> 00:37:58.309 And so sometimes it's that, um, sometimes it's watching a ridiculous movie. 00:37:58.789 --> 00:38:15.320 Sometimes it's having a real conversation with the people you're having these conversations and saying, I know that I have been the resource for checking y'all on the crap checking y'all on the racism, but I need you to now hold me accountable. 00:38:15.530 --> 00:38:20.449 So you're not the only person doing that work in your group, you know, that creates particular kinds of dynamics. 00:38:20.570 --> 00:38:26.960 And so you still want to feel like you can grow to, and now you're like, not like you're always teaching and that can be a thing too. 00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:30.739 Like you're always outputting, there needs to be something reciprocal. 00:38:30.740 --> 00:38:37.329 And so I say this often when I'm having conversations about people who are like, do I do activism? 00:38:37.690 --> 00:38:40.239 Is there a difference between art and activism to me? 00:38:40.300 --> 00:38:50.530 No, because the only way that I am actually able to do what I do as part of BLM is because art is all throughout. 00:38:50.530 --> 00:38:53.829