Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Leslie Lee cam.
Speaker 1: Hello, my name is Ty Sloan
Speaker 2: And this is season two of the youth elders podcast, creating space for identities, histories, and perspectives across generations.
Speaker 1: This season takes a look at personal stories of coming out, navigating identity and finding hope
Speaker 2: While also discussing the impact of institutional spaces and activist movements on the varied places.
Speaker 2: We find community.
Speaker 1: This season's episodes are curated and recorded by myself, Thai Sloan, Leslie Lee cam, Naomi bane, bear Bergman and Roma Spencer.
Speaker 1: Most of our recordings were made in Toronto on the traditional territories of the Anishinaabi, the[inaudible] and the wind that in treaty territory of the Mississaugas of the credit, this episode is hosted by bear Bergman, who talks with Kai, a therapist and trans man living in the states about his journey and how he's navigated disclosing or not his transness to friends, family, and colleagues.
Speaker 3: We've been talking in this podcast about the concept of having lost years and that idea isn't so much like, you know, people who are completely sat out, but people who for various identity related reasons, didn't get an opportunity to participate in community for awhile sometimes because of a lot of different factors or choices.
Speaker 3: Can you talk a little bit about what made you feel like you wanted to participate in this podcast episode?
Speaker 4: Yes, certainly.
Speaker 4: So one I'm really happy to be here and be a part of this because I have been wrestling with the idea of disclosure about who I am as a person.
Speaker 4: So I'm a, transgender male.
Speaker 4: I was assigned female at birth and I transitioned in the mid nineties.
Speaker 4: There was really limited internet access and there wasn't a whole lot of information out and about who we are and, um, how to support us at the time I was working at a gym as a personal trainer, and I came out to 500 members because it's very binary in a gym.
Speaker 4: And I started, uh, taking testosterone and had been on testosterone for about five months.
Speaker 4: And I got into a car accident and sustained some injuries that didn't permit me to be a personal trainer anymore.
Speaker 4: And I had to look for other work and doing so I did it under the name, Kai, because I changed my name at that time and became the social and medical transition.
Speaker 4: And so I took a job as I was still pretty ambiguous looking.
Speaker 4: And I was terrified because I hadn't had any modifications to my body in terms of surgery.
Speaker 4: I didn't want to be perceived as someone who I wasn't.
Speaker 4: I wanted my outward appearance to really be in alignment with my gender identity.
Speaker 4: At the time it was F to M female to male transsexual.
Speaker 4: How was labeled
Speaker 3: Positive, good old datas.
Speaker 4: The good old days.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So I, I told the HR representative, you know, Hey, this is the story.
Speaker 4: So if you do a background, check on me, my, my former name with my former employers will have this name.
Speaker 4: So I had to disclose at that point and I chose not to disclose when I went into the job and I was terrified that someone would find out, you know?
Speaker 4: And so it was for my own safety, I think my own sense of wellbeing that I chose not to come
Speaker 3: Out.
Speaker 3: Did you have any experiences that felt like risky or like a near miss?
Speaker 4: Not near misses, but there were comments made that made me uncomfortable in the workplace.
Speaker 4: There was a person who made homophobic jokes who commented on my masculinity or lack of masculinity and things like that.
Speaker 4: And so I wasn't really at ease in that environment.
Speaker 4: And when I went to HR, finally, after several times, the HR rep said, well, he couldn't possibly say that.
Speaker 4: And I said, well, he did.
Speaker 4: And he has, and she went on to say things like, well, he's a Christian.
Speaker 4: And I said, yes, he doesn't like gay people.
Speaker 4: And she went on to say, while the reasons why he wouldn't say that.
Speaker 4: And then she began to talk about her struggle as being married to someone who's Muslim and who, how she's discriminated against.
Speaker 4: And it wasn't about me.
Speaker 4: And I was like, Hey, this is uncomfortable for me.
Speaker 4: So that wasn't like a near miss, but it was uncomfortable.
Speaker 4: And every time I peed because my anatomy was, um, the same as it was when I was born, um, I had to sit down to pee.
Speaker 4: And so I was very uncomfortable learning just how to negotiate male space in a workplace.
Speaker 4: Um, and that was, that was a thing.
Speaker 4: So I think like peeing all the time was hard.
Speaker 4: And then just, um, you know, like finding my way in a, in a workplace.
Speaker 4: And I, at the time I worked for an insurance company and I had to speak on the phone and my voice at, at the time was still in the process of changing.
Speaker 4: So I'd often be mis-gendered and then my name is pretty gender neutral in a lot of ways.
Speaker 4: And so that was uncomfortable in itself because if I, if I felt like if I express like warmth in my voice or my voice would raise, so that would be mis-gendered, which was a whole nother thing at the time.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I definitely went through a very grumpy on the phones phase, uh, at a certain point in my transition because I discovered that if I was nice to people, uh, they automatically thought that that meant I was a woman.
Speaker 3: And only by being like, not all the way to a jerk, but pretty brusque, uh, would they gender me correctly, but I'm not brusque by nature at all.
Speaker 3: Like I'm super gregarious and enthusiastic.
Speaker 3: So it was very, uh, it was a time.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I, I, that really resonates with me as far as close calls, because I had worked in a series of service jobs and I worked in a gym like public setting.
Speaker 4: I was a barista for 10 years.
Speaker 4: So like I knew a ton of people.
Speaker 4: And so I cross paths, the people, as I was delivering pizza as Kai, you know, my, I had like a day job and a night job.
Speaker 4: And so I had run across former customers or former gym members and people would look at me funny, like, do I know you?
Speaker 4: And some, sometimes I'm like, I just want to give your pizza.
Speaker 4: You know, I don't want to out myself to you.
Speaker 4: I just am working here.
Speaker 4: And, you know, like, I don't want to have this be a thing.
Speaker 3: I had a friend for a while who had left town and transitioned and then moved back five years later.
Speaker 3: Um, and would constantly run into people who were like, are you, and who started saying yes, I was in, I don't know, fast times at Ridgemont high, you know, he continually played it off as like, I had a bit part in a popular movie that one time.
Speaker 3: And that's why you think I look familiar
Speaker 4: And people would be like,
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 3: I knew I knew you, but it like, it solved the problem of like feelings stared at.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So sometimes I would say I have a sister, you know, cause I look like if I had my older sister now, but her older brother now, you know, like, but yeah, sometimes I would say that, but that having that canned response ready, that's a really great,
Speaker 3: I think it, it can be hard for people even who've transitioned in the last five or 10 years to like understand why someone might choose not to disclose for a period of time, especially people who were born and have always lived in north America.
Speaker 3: Um, and so I, I, I would love to, to hear more about what, what factors went into that,
Speaker 4: Um, I, I'm fortunate to know some of the grandads of our community.
Speaker 4: Uh, so people who transitioned well before me, 20, 30 years before me who shared their stories of being told by medical professionals, that you must not disclose to anyone there's a shameful aspect to being who you are.
Speaker 4: And you must have quote unquote, all the surgeries in order to be a male.
Speaker 4: And that, that, that was really, um, profound for me.
Speaker 4: Um, it wasn't something that I wanted to do.
Speaker 4: I find it really painful to think about erasing my history and denying that I was socialized female that I, you know, and, and the experiences that shaped me are really what makes me probably a better trans guy right now.
Speaker 4: And then I got to tell you that, like one of the biggest things that really scared the Dickens out of me was the Brandon Tina story.
Speaker 4: That was one of the things that I, that was shared with me when I was a new trans guy, I was just, just coming out and I saw the film, the boys don't cry and the director was there and I got so angry.
Speaker 4: It did not like so much of how this person was talked about.
Speaker 4: And then just the fear of being assaulted, the fear of being murdered, uh, fears for my personal safety have always been a concern.
Speaker 4: I'm small, I'm.
Speaker 4: I don't want to change how I, how I behave in public.
Speaker 4: You know, I want to just be all that I am.
Speaker 4: And I found myself really central sensory in that, um, trying to like quote unquote appear straight.
Speaker 4: And it was also like, like I was discovering my sexuality too.
Speaker 4: So I, I never dated.
Speaker 4: I dated later in when I was in college for the first time I was in college.
Speaker 4: And, uh, I dated guys that were just sweet peas, like absolute gems.
Speaker 4: And then, and then I, in the eighties, like, it was like 85.
Speaker 4: I decided, Hey, I, I think I like girls a lot.
Speaker 4: So I started going out with girls and then I like fully embraced the lesbian word, uh, and identity.
Speaker 4: And as soon, and then I still liked guys and I was still as attracted to guys.
Speaker 4: And then, and that was critiqued by some of my fellow lesbian friends.
Speaker 4: And I, but I also just was like, Hey, I'm going to date this guy, like this guy.
Speaker 4: So I did that.
Speaker 4: And then, um, when I, when I transition part of, um, the, the fear that I had to was just like, I had some bad experiences with gay men, um, just not terribly accepting or I would be out in someone without me, like I was getting cruised.
Speaker 4: And then somebody would say, Hey, wait, that guy's a trans guy.
Speaker 4: And then the person would walk away.
Speaker 4: You know, I had some really nice times, but I also had some times like that where I wasn't able to own, like how the message was sent, how the narrative was, was, you know, shared.
Speaker 4: So that, that shaped some of my experience back then.
Speaker 3: And so at some point you had graduated from university and you were living as a man, as you are.
Speaker 3: And then where does this story take us?
Speaker 4: Well, um, I met a really nice person.
Speaker 4: She didn't know I was trans when I asked her out.
Speaker 4: And on the second date, she took me to a drag king show because she wanted to make sure I was cool with queers and gender non-binary and and trans folks.
Speaker 4: And I knew everybody there and I was terrified that they would come up and say, Hey, can you come here?
Speaker 4: Give me a hug.
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 4: And I was like, I wanted to be able to out myself on my own terms.
Speaker 4: And thankfully they were running late.
Speaker 4: So we went and drank a bottle of wine outside.
Speaker 4: And then that was that I got to come out on my own terms.
Speaker 4: By the time I finished my master's in psychology, I was married.
Speaker 4: And, um, that's a story too, because we chose to elope.
Speaker 4: And part of the rationale for doing that was because our two sides of the family really haven't met.
Speaker 4: I'm not out to her side of the family.
Speaker 4: And that is a choice that we've made for my personal safety.
Speaker 4: They're lovely people.
Speaker 4: They just don't know.
Speaker 4: And it's, we're very much at odds politically.
Speaker 4: Then I think it would probably be a difficult process, especially now we've been together just about 20 years.
Speaker 4: And, you know, I'm, I'm, I've always been okay with that, but like, my wife is really, really protective of me and doesn't to, um, cause any pain to me.
Speaker 4: And she also finds it my story to tell.
Speaker 4: So I, I became a therapist and I moved out of Seattle and that, that opened a lot of opportunities for me.
Speaker 4: Like the, the, the pros of being stealth as it were of not disclosing really, like in some ways it felt like I was free to explore different parts of my identity as, as a person living in a new town where no one was like really familiar to me.
Speaker 4: I wanted to discover myself as a therapist and what, what I enjoyed and what I ended up doing was working with youth and families.
Speaker 4: I did work with parents, and then I had a few trans and gender questioning, um, teenagers on my caseload.
Speaker 4: I was really concerned about like my boundaries, like how appropriate would it be for me to share with clients?
Speaker 4: And I'll tell you that, like not disclosing to the parents and caregivers was actually good.
Speaker 4: And the reason for that is I think it allowed them to explore their own discomfort and process as they move through, like accepting their child, you know?
Speaker 4: And, and I think if they had known, perhaps they would have thought that I was over aligned with their child.
Speaker 4: And so I knew a remarkable amount about trans cycle, what it is to be trans and, but I also just really tried to allow them to, to really work through those, those thoughts and feelings about their children.
Speaker 4: So I made that decision and I just sort of, it just sort of became more of the norm to not disclose professionally.
Speaker 4: I also had really concerns about what people may think or how it may limit my opportunities to be out.
Speaker 3: How was that period for you in terms of your leg sense of attachment to the community and feeling of belonging?
Speaker 4: It was really hard to be disconnected from community.
Speaker 4: There were times where it was just so uncomfortable.
Speaker 4: I am like unquestionably, you know, I, the way I see the world, the way I live, the way I, the way I think everything is this among the fringes, I'm just very.
Speaker 4: I'm very gay.
Speaker 4: And I think in some ways that my not disclosing as what's my colleagues, um, in some ways I may have shortchanged them, you know, not giving them the opportunity to really welcome me and know me entirely.
Speaker 4: And, um, I short-changed myself for sure.
Speaker 4: And just be like, you know, how it really limited, um, my ability to connect fully with people.
Speaker 4: I got really used to not being vulnerable with people after a while.
Speaker 4: I just couldn't remember the last time I disclosed to somebody like it had been years aside from medical people who have absolutely needed to know.
Speaker 4: So I really felt like that was it wasn't dishonest.
Speaker 4: It wasn't deceptive.
Speaker 4: And at the same time, we have so many depictions of us in the world of the surprise.
Speaker 4: You know, like it's like this, this disclosure thing where we're like deceptive and somehow just not very honest.
Speaker 4: And really that bothered me, you know, I felt pretty hopeless and I decided that I was going to apply for, uh, I always wanted to work with folks at a affirming place.
Speaker 4: And it was terrifying to me.
Speaker 4: Um, one, because I think the meaning behind it is so big for me to be able to do that.
Speaker 4: I'd always held people in high regard who worked with our community who get paid for work for our community.
Speaker 4: And I also have heard messages that once you go get it for pay, you never gonna find another job, you know?
Speaker 4: And I thought, I don't think that's true.
Speaker 4: I pushed back on that.
Speaker 4: So I'm going to apply in the cover letter.
Speaker 4: I wrote at the bottom, I said, Hey, I'm a trans man.
Speaker 4: And I just want to work with my community.
Speaker 4: And I had spent a long time since I've been there.
Speaker 4: And I hope to hope to hear from you.
Speaker 4: And it has never been a thing.
Speaker 4: I mean, I was terrified during the interview just because I was nervous and I had several people that via zoom and I just felt like I was sort of a dinosaur, but thank God they hired me.
Speaker 4: And I'm, I'm here now.
Speaker 4: And in my bio, I have that.
Speaker 4: I transitioned up from Seattle and with every client, I talked to them and I let them know that I transitioned.
Speaker 4: And, um, I'm like so old compared to most of the people I see.
Speaker 4: I absolutely love what I'm doing.
Speaker 4: Um, the place I work is so awesome.
Speaker 4: Like it's just, it helps me connect with clients in many ways to just be able to say, I think I had some people say I've never had a trans therapist before, or are you a trans?
Speaker 4: And I'm like, yeah, I am.
Speaker 4: You know, and then we just sort of move on.
Speaker 4: Um, but I can use it, you know, within, you know, appropriate boundaries.
Speaker 4: I can use it, I think as, as, as, um, a positive point, you know, I think that that's been just really affirming to just be who I am.
Speaker 4: So, um,
Speaker 3: I'm really struck by the fact that, you know, you sort of spoke very positively about the ways that you were able to be helpful when you weren't disclosing about your, about your gender experience.
Speaker 3: And then you spoke very positively about the ways that you've been able to be helpful when you have disclosed your gender experience, um, which, which feels kind of great.
Speaker 3: I'm wondering, are there also differences in friendships between the people who, who know your gender history and the people who don't like?
Speaker 3: Cause it seems like you've been able to like make strong connections either way, but I wonder what the differences between them might be
Speaker 4: In, in some sense, it's really uncomfortable in the, in the past, it's been really uncomfortable, comfortable to watch someone do this mental accounting of going back, making sense of all the, the tells, you know, like if I share my identity with someone, they go, oh, let me go back.
Speaker 4: And think about the times when Kai was acting, maybe like, I don't know, like a woman or like, like not, not like cis-gendered, I don't know, or not straight, you know, so like I've seen that happen, but I also just really feel a sense of loss and missed opportunities by not sharing.
Speaker 4: And when it really becomes clear is when I do tell someone and the sense of relief, I feel.
Speaker 4: So, um, my closest friend in New York, I knew him for three years and I'm a runner and we would get up every like three times a week at 4 45 in the morning, rain or shine, snow, sleet, whatever, and meet in the park and do our run.
Speaker 4: Like that guy was so reliable and it took me three years to tell him I was trans.
Speaker 4: And so we were talking about everything.
Speaker 4: He was like my straight boyfriend.
Speaker 4: He is amazing.
Speaker 4: And I love him so much.
Speaker 4: And I, and um, when I told them he was like, I'm so glad you told me.
Speaker 4: And he gave me a hug, you know, he's like, thank you.
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 4: And we stopped around him, you know, he stopped around and I was like, oh my God, why did they wait so long?
Speaker 4: You know, you're awesome.
Speaker 4: And then I had two colleagues that, um, they're from New York.
Speaker 4: We still talk every month.
Speaker 4: We, um, we were former workmates and we have, we've formed like a little consultation group to provide support for each other.
Speaker 4: And I told them, last time we talked, I said, Hey, I just want you to know.
Speaker 4: And the same thing, I mean, like so much of it is like, in my mind, the fear that I have, because I have so much evidence that these people are so firming and so caring and wonderful because they follow over themselves to like, thank me and they love me and they didn't go through this.
Speaker 4: Like, what does that mean?
Speaker 4: You know, they just valued that.
Speaker 4: I shared that with them, you know?
Speaker 4: So when I hadn't told there is a difference because I mean, I, I have missed opportunities to connect with other queers, like go into, I was feel weird going to a gay bar.
Speaker 4: And then if I'm approached by someone who may be interested in me or curious about me and I say, yeah, I'm partnered.
Speaker 4: And then I mentioned, my wife, there was always a thing like, oh, you know, am I less than gay?
Speaker 4: Or am I by, or am I that, you know, there's always this sort of a conversation that happens around that or there, you know, like I've run on like gay, um, running, running clubs, front runners, same thing.
Speaker 4: So it's just sort of, you know, it's a little uncomfortable, you know, it's, it's better now you ride through it.
Speaker 4: But I, I definitely have missed, um, miss some connections.
Speaker 4: I mean, I can think about like, what, what made me not disclose, you know, at the time, but, um, it's mostly my own discomfort.
Speaker 4: Cause I really do think the people that I wanted to tell probably would have been just fine.
Speaker 4: Do
Speaker 3: You feel like you have lost time in some ways with your choice not to disclose, is that, does that feel like an accurate description and or what would be a more accurate one?
Speaker 4: Maybe I always feel like I have a 10 year, 10 year developmental lag when I think about my life.
Speaker 4: And, and part of that is because I, in my it's tied up in my gender and my sexuality.
Speaker 4: And, um, so as a younger person, I was not quite clear on who I was and I dropped out of college and I traveled and I didn't start dating until I was in college.
Speaker 4: And I didn't quite find myself till, till later, you know?
Speaker 4: And so I was behind in the dating scene.
Speaker 4: I was behind professionally is behind like educationally things like that.
Speaker 4: So I just think I've, I've had to catch up a little bit.
Speaker 4: And then I had to like figure out who I was in, in like a fuller sense.
Speaker 4: And I do have like periods where I'm really, um, like I had a lot of pain and loss and I, it is hard to talk about.
Speaker 4: And it's hard to think about particularly around, um, family and friends.
Speaker 4: When I, when I transitioned, I, I opted to leave the lesbian community at the time.
Speaker 4: It was like a lot less flexible than it is now.
Speaker 4: Um, and I just felt like it wasn't the best spot for me.
Speaker 4: Um, I didn't feel like it was a label that really was, um, mine and I wanted to make sure to respect the space, the women's space.
Speaker 4: And, um, so for me, I, I left the lesbian community and I had some friends who chose not to communicate with me any longer.
Speaker 4: And so I experienced some loss and it was surprising in some sense, you know, uh, you know, depending on where people landed.
Speaker 4: Um, and in others, not, I'm happy to report the things have evolved over time.
Speaker 4: It's not, it's not like that anymore to, to a large degree.
Speaker 4: And so I left that community and then, um, I mean, most of the pain is probably around my family.
Speaker 4: And I also will say that after taking time, um, my mom like was the one, I think that's sort of like, who's the matriarch, right?
Speaker 4: And she, she never overtly said, um, you know, I don't accept you or I don't love you.
Speaker 4: Um, but it was, it was, um, very difficult for her.
Speaker 4: I think, um, we were, I was raised Irish Catholic.
Speaker 4: She was, she was certainly like liberal in so many ways, but I think I throw for a loop, you know, I think things don't end up over time, but I definitely like missed out on some events.
Speaker 4: Um, and then I just chose to just cut ties for awhile and then, um, and happy, happy to report that things have mended.
Speaker 4: And, um, after a couple of years, it just like I was fully embraced and, um, I have a wonderful relationship with my family.
Speaker 4: My dad is 91 and he he's a golfer.
Speaker 4: And he hangs out with people who are very conservative and some who are not, but that guy is an advocate.
Speaker 4: He'll call people out on the golf course and say, you know, if they make a homophobic joke or say something untoward, he will say, you know, you never know who's around you, that you may be offending or whose family members may be trans or whose family members may be gay.
Speaker 4: And I'm just like, go on dad.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And then my mom, my mom passed away almost two years ago.
Speaker 4: And, um, you know, I, I love loved her and I have no doubt that she loved me and we ended on just, she just embraced me, you know, and I had such a wonderful relationship with her and I am very well supported by my three sisters.
Speaker 4: We're very close.
Speaker 4: Um, so that, that period was, you know, initially was hard and I, I didn't come out to extended family ward sort of trickled out, um, to my cousins and my uncles.
Speaker 4: My mom had 13 kids in her family and my dad had like seven, so word got out, um, that, that I was trans and that my name.
Speaker 4: And now my godfather is one of my Facebook friends.
Speaker 4: And, um, you know, things are like, everybody knows and it's been, it's been just fine, you know?
Speaker 4: So that's really good.
Speaker 3: I really appreciate that reflection.
Speaker 3: Um, is there any question that you sort of wished I would ask or like, do you have any, do you have any answers left in your bag looking for questions?
Speaker 3: Thank
Speaker 4: You for asking that.
Speaker 4: I guess I just say, you know, I think this is my story and the one person, and I just want to label that because I think there are plenty of good reasons to just to remain, you know, to not disclose, um, everyone, um, it's their own, their own journey.
Speaker 4: And I, this is about as Wu as I get, even though I'm a therapist, I'm not very, um, I think, I think it's just really important to, you know, this is my story and my experience where I, where I'm most comfortable and that everybody else shares that.
Speaker 4: And I know, I know it may be hard to wrap your head around if you're, if you're, you know, raised in a, in a generation that may be more accepting.
Speaker 4: Um, and, um, I'm thrilled that it's more accepting, you know, I, I can probably hear that I'm a fairly optimistic person.
Speaker 4: I also am very accepting of the, you know, the, the, the pain, uh, and the joy that it brought me here that I had to, I think I, the pain is what shaped me.
Speaker 4: The loss is what shaped me and the way of carrying around, you know, like remaining stealth and not disclosing was too great for me.
Speaker 4: So I chose to like shed it, you know, like F that, you know, so I, I'm not parading around town with like trans flag every day, but I certainly am like really comfortable disclosing.
Speaker 4: I, I I'm part of a running club.
Speaker 4: And I went running for the first time with someone and, um, were just on a group run and she asked, you know, are you married?
Speaker 4: Do you have kids?
Speaker 4: And so I thought, well, you have a choice here.
Speaker 4: So I said, yeah, I'm married.
Speaker 4: I said, I'm.
Speaker 4: Um, my wife knows.
Speaker 4: And, um, and also, um, you know, no, we don't have kids.
Speaker 4: And I said, I'm a trans guy.
Speaker 4: And I could never really produce what, what was needed at the time.
Speaker 4: And it was something we, that we chose not to do, you know?
Speaker 4: And, and it just, wasn't a thing she said, oh, okay.
Speaker 4: And we just kind of moved on.
Speaker 4: So that's one of the joys of being in Portland is like, you know, there are plenty of us around and you can't like, I, when I moved up here, I was just like, holy.
Speaker 4: There's people that look like me.
Speaker 4: There's people that think like me, even in the pandemic, you know, it's, there, there are a few people in the streets, but it just feels, I feel very much at home being among my people.
Speaker 4: So, and I missed that.
Speaker 3: I appreciated what you said about people needing to make their own choices for their own sense of safety and wellbeing.
Speaker 3: But I also appreciate in your story that you, like, you sort of modeled that you can make a choice and then you can make another choice when you outgrow a previous choice.
Speaker 3: And I, and I, I feel like that could happen in any direction.
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Um, that we can, that we can need different things in different places or, and at different times, um, and then make different choices to support that, including at the running club.
Speaker 3: Although, you know, I've been to Portland, I've got lots of Portland friends.
Speaker 3: Uh, there's a part of me that feels fairly confident that she got home from running and immediately, you know, texted her friends and was like, I have a new transgender friend in my running club, you know, just for the like extra points in Portland.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I used to really fear now, you know, like once you tell someone, once I disclosed to someone it's out of my hands, you know, and that I used to spend time really worrying about that and thinking, who are they going to tell, what are they going to think about me?
Speaker 4: And I did, when I, when I said that I was like, no, I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 4: I'm just going to practice what I preach in therapy, which is, you know, like I have a choice about what happens between my ears.
Speaker 4: And I just decided to just like, let it be, just accept that it's out of my hands.
Speaker 4: And yeah, she's probably going to tell her husband that she has a new trans friend, maybe not, you know, but likely could be, you know, and yeah, maybe, maybe there'll be some brownie points, but here it's like the, the stakes are not as high here in Portland because I have the good fortune of living in a really accepting, like friendly, trans friendly place.
Speaker 4: It occurs
Speaker 3: To me that like part of this narrative is, you know, you, you really struggled with feeling afraid and uncomfortable, but now literally for your job, you're helping other people to not feel afraid and uncomfortable and to not have those kinds of, of losses or, or, or gaps.
Speaker 3: Um, which just feels like a really beautiful sort of full circle to come to.
Speaker 4: I love what I do.
Speaker 4: I love going to work.
Speaker 4: I love meeting people.
Speaker 4: I love hearing people's stories.
Speaker 4: I love the, just the wide variety of identities that people embrace.
Speaker 4: It's so much less restrictive than it used to be.
Speaker 4: Um, from when we had first came out as trans.
Speaker 4: And I just find that, um, extremely freeing for people and lovely to see.
Speaker 4: And, um, it's been, it's been a joy to be able to do that.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the youth eldest podcast of big things for us to our sound editing team, Denato Hepburn and M Lovells with support from Maddie bowtie sta
Speaker 1: The youth elders podcast is produced by buddies and bad times theater.
Speaker 1: And it's funded in part by the theaters community and education partner, TD bank.