WEBVTT 00:00:00.900 --> 00:00:03.209 Hi, my name is Leslie Lee cam. 00:00:03.270 --> 00:00:05.040 Hello, my name is Ty Sloan 00:00:05.190 --> 00:00:15.869 And this is season two of the youth elders podcast, creating space for identities, histories, and perspectives across generations. 00:00:20.690 --> 00:00:25.940 This season takes a look at personal stories of coming out, navigating identity and finding hope 00:00:26.359 --> 00:00:34.009 While also discussing the impact of institutional spaces and activist movements on the varied places. 00:00:34.011 --> 00:00:35.359 We find community. 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:44.270 This season's episodes are curated and recorded by myself, Thai Sloan, Leslie Lee cam, Naomi bane, bear Bergman and Roma Spencer. 00:00:44.750 --> 00:01:06.409 Most of our recordings were made in Toronto on the traditional territories of the Anishinaabi, the[inaudible] and the wind that in treaty territory of the Mississaugas of the credit, this episode is hosted by bear Bergman, who talks with Kai, a therapist and trans man living in the states about his journey and how he's navigated disclosing or not his transness to friends, family, and colleagues. 00:01:08.269 --> 00:01:33.290 We've been talking in this podcast about the concept of having lost years and that idea isn't so much like, you know, people who are completely sat out, but people who for various identity related reasons, didn't get an opportunity to participate in community for awhile sometimes because of a lot of different factors or choices. 00:01:33.769 --> 00:01:41.840 Can you talk a little bit about what made you feel like you wanted to participate in this podcast episode? 00:01:42.769 --> 00:01:43.969 Yes, certainly. 00:01:43.971 --> 00:01:53.750 So one I'm really happy to be here and be a part of this because I have been wrestling with the idea of disclosure about who I am as a person. 00:01:53.780 --> 00:01:57.859 So I'm a, transgender male. 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:03.319 I was assigned female at birth and I transitioned in the mid nineties. 00:02:03.349 --> 00:02:20.360 There was really limited internet access and there wasn't a whole lot of information out and about who we are and, um, how to support us at the time I was working at a gym as a personal trainer, and I came out to 500 members because it's very binary in a gym. 00:02:20.449 --> 00:02:25.759 And I started, uh, taking testosterone and had been on testosterone for about five months. 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:31.280 And I got into a car accident and sustained some injuries that didn't permit me to be a personal trainer anymore. 00:02:31.580 --> 00:02:39.259 And I had to look for other work and doing so I did it under the name, Kai, because I changed my name at that time and became the social and medical transition. 00:02:39.349 --> 00:02:43.009 And so I took a job as I was still pretty ambiguous looking. 00:02:43.729 --> 00:02:49.250 And I was terrified because I hadn't had any modifications to my body in terms of surgery. 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:52.340 I didn't want to be perceived as someone who I wasn't. 00:02:52.490 --> 00:02:56.569 I wanted my outward appearance to really be in alignment with my gender identity. 00:02:56.659 --> 00:02:59.360 At the time it was F to M female to male transsexual. 00:02:59.689 --> 00:03:00.219 How was labeled 00:03:00.789 --> 00:03:01.840 Positive, good old datas. 00:03:02.419 --> 00:03:02.969 The good old days. 00:03:02.971 --> 00:03:03.240 Yeah. 00:03:03.270 --> 00:03:07.080 So I, I told the HR representative, you know, Hey, this is the story. 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:12.060 So if you do a background, check on me, my, my former name with my former employers will have this name. 00:03:12.419 --> 00:03:21.090 So I had to disclose at that point and I chose not to disclose when I went into the job and I was terrified that someone would find out, you know? 00:03:21.091 --> 00:03:27.270 And so it was for my own safety, I think my own sense of wellbeing that I chose not to come 00:03:27.270 --> 00:03:27.509 Out. 00:03:27.659 --> 00:03:34.349 Did you have any experiences that felt like risky or like a near miss? 00:03:34.919 --> 00:03:39.120 Not near misses, but there were comments made that made me uncomfortable in the workplace. 00:03:39.150 --> 00:03:47.340 There was a person who made homophobic jokes who commented on my masculinity or lack of masculinity and things like that. 00:03:47.341 --> 00:03:49.349 And so I wasn't really at ease in that environment. 00:03:49.350 --> 00:03:56.069 And when I went to HR, finally, after several times, the HR rep said, well, he couldn't possibly say that. 00:03:56.240 --> 00:03:57.300 And I said, well, he did. 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:00.659 And he has, and she went on to say things like, well, he's a Christian. 00:04:01.110 --> 00:04:04.080 And I said, yes, he doesn't like gay people. 00:04:04.830 --> 00:04:07.860 And she went on to say, while the reasons why he wouldn't say that. 00:04:07.860 --> 00:04:14.550 And then she began to talk about her struggle as being married to someone who's Muslim and who, how she's discriminated against. 00:04:14.550 --> 00:04:15.719 And it wasn't about me. 00:04:16.050 --> 00:04:18.569 And I was like, Hey, this is uncomfortable for me. 00:04:18.810 --> 00:04:21.300 So that wasn't like a near miss, but it was uncomfortable. 00:04:21.629 --> 00:04:28.470 And every time I peed because my anatomy was, um, the same as it was when I was born, um, I had to sit down to pee. 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:34.290 And so I was very uncomfortable learning just how to negotiate male space in a workplace. 00:04:35.129 --> 00:04:36.569 Um, and that was, that was a thing. 00:04:36.571 --> 00:04:38.639 So I think like peeing all the time was hard. 00:04:39.899 --> 00:04:43.800 And then just, um, you know, like finding my way in a, in a workplace. 00:04:43.800 --> 00:04:51.600 And I, at the time I worked for an insurance company and I had to speak on the phone and my voice at, at the time was still in the process of changing. 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:56.459 So I'd often be mis-gendered and then my name is pretty gender neutral in a lot of ways. 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:07.920 And so that was uncomfortable in itself because if I, if I felt like if I express like warmth in my voice or my voice would raise, so that would be mis-gendered, which was a whole nother thing at the time. 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:08.519 Yeah. 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:22.350 I definitely went through a very grumpy on the phones phase, uh, at a certain point in my transition because I discovered that if I was nice to people, uh, they automatically thought that that meant I was a woman. 00:05:22.350 --> 00:05:35.610 And only by being like, not all the way to a jerk, but pretty brusque, uh, would they gender me correctly, but I'm not brusque by nature at all. 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:38.850 Like I'm super gregarious and enthusiastic. 00:05:38.850 --> 00:05:41.850 So it was very, uh, it was a time. 00:05:42.889 --> 00:05:42.889 Yeah. 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:43.639 Yeah. 00:05:43.790 --> 00:05:44.089 Yeah. 00:05:44.091 --> 00:05:52.160 I, I, that really resonates with me as far as close calls, because I had worked in a series of service jobs and I worked in a gym like public setting. 00:05:52.161 --> 00:05:53.750 I was a barista for 10 years. 00:05:53.750 --> 00:05:56.029 So like I knew a ton of people. 00:05:56.329 --> 00:06:03.529 And so I cross paths, the people, as I was delivering pizza as Kai, you know, my, I had like a day job and a night job. 00:06:03.531 --> 00:06:09.589 And so I had run across former customers or former gym members and people would look at me funny, like, do I know you? 00:06:09.591 --> 00:06:12.860 And some, sometimes I'm like, I just want to give your pizza. 00:06:13.339 --> 00:06:15.980 You know, I don't want to out myself to you. 00:06:16.430 --> 00:06:17.990 I just am working here. 00:06:18.069 --> 00:06:20.089 And, you know, like, I don't want to have this be a thing. 00:06:20.410 --> 00:06:27.459 I had a friend for a while who had left town and transitioned and then moved back five years later. 00:06:28.300 --> 00:06:43.509 Um, and would constantly run into people who were like, are you, and who started saying yes, I was in, I don't know, fast times at Ridgemont high, you know, he continually played it off as like, I had a bit part in a popular movie that one time. 00:06:43.660 --> 00:06:45.430 And that's why you think I look familiar 00:06:46.629 --> 00:06:47.379 And people would be like, 00:06:47.709 --> 00:06:48.399 Right. 00:06:48.610 --> 00:06:49.269 Yes. 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:58.589 I knew I knew you, but it like, it solved the problem of like feelings stared at. 00:06:58.959 --> 00:06:59.319 Yeah. 00:06:59.321 --> 00:07:11.889 So sometimes I would say I have a sister, you know, cause I look like if I had my older sister now, but her older brother now, you know, like, but yeah, sometimes I would say that, but that having that canned response ready, that's a really great, 00:07:12.910 --> 00:07:32.980 I think it, it can be hard for people even who've transitioned in the last five or 10 years to like understand why someone might choose not to disclose for a period of time, especially people who were born and have always lived in north America. 00:07:33.730 --> 00:07:40.120 Um, and so I, I, I would love to, to hear more about what, what factors went into that, 00:07:40.990 --> 00:07:44.410 Um, I, I'm fortunate to know some of the grandads of our community. 00:07:44.829 --> 00:07:58.240 Uh, so people who transitioned well before me, 20, 30 years before me who shared their stories of being told by medical professionals, that you must not disclose to anyone there's a shameful aspect to being who you are. 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:02.319 And you must have quote unquote, all the surgeries in order to be a male. 00:08:02.860 --> 00:08:06.279 And that, that, that was really, um, profound for me. 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:09.189 Um, it wasn't something that I wanted to do. 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:23.199 I find it really painful to think about erasing my history and denying that I was socialized female that I, you know, and, and the experiences that shaped me are really what makes me probably a better trans guy right now. 00:08:23.470 --> 00:08:30.069 And then I got to tell you that, like one of the biggest things that really scared the Dickens out of me was the Brandon Tina story. 00:08:30.550 --> 00:08:41.919 That was one of the things that I, that was shared with me when I was a new trans guy, I was just, just coming out and I saw the film, the boys don't cry and the director was there and I got so angry. 00:08:42.070 --> 00:08:46.659 It did not like so much of how this person was talked about. 00:08:47.049 --> 00:08:55.149 And then just the fear of being assaulted, the fear of being murdered, uh, fears for my personal safety have always been a concern. 00:08:55.350 --> 00:08:56.970 I'm small, I'm. 00:08:57.659 --> 00:09:00.899 I don't want to change how I, how I behave in public. 00:09:00.929 --> 00:09:02.519 You know, I want to just be all that I am. 00:09:02.850 --> 00:09:07.830 And I found myself really central sensory in that, um, trying to like quote unquote appear straight. 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:12.389 And it was also like, like I was discovering my sexuality too. 00:09:12.779 --> 00:09:14.490 So I, I never dated. 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:18.240 I dated later in when I was in college for the first time I was in college. 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.500 And, uh, I dated guys that were just sweet peas, like absolute gems. 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:26.580 And then, and then I, in the eighties, like, it was like 85. 00:09:26.581 --> 00:09:29.399 I decided, Hey, I, I think I like girls a lot. 00:09:29.639 --> 00:09:35.639 So I started going out with girls and then I like fully embraced the lesbian word, uh, and identity. 00:09:35.970 --> 00:09:39.929 And as soon, and then I still liked guys and I was still as attracted to guys. 00:09:39.931 --> 00:09:44.159 And then, and that was critiqued by some of my fellow lesbian friends. 00:09:45.539 --> 00:09:49.470 And I, but I also just was like, Hey, I'm going to date this guy, like this guy. 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:50.580 So I did that. 00:09:50.639 --> 00:10:06.659 And then, um, when I, when I transition part of, um, the, the fear that I had to was just like, I had some bad experiences with gay men, um, just not terribly accepting or I would be out in someone without me, like I was getting cruised. 00:10:06.660 --> 00:10:08.909 And then somebody would say, Hey, wait, that guy's a trans guy. 00:10:08.910 --> 00:10:10.289 And then the person would walk away. 00:10:10.620 --> 00:10:18.779 You know, I had some really nice times, but I also had some times like that where I wasn't able to own, like how the message was sent, how the narrative was, was, you know, shared. 00:10:19.110 --> 00:10:22.470 So that, that shaped some of my experience back then. 00:10:22.909 --> 00:10:32.929 And so at some point you had graduated from university and you were living as a man, as you are. 00:10:33.110 --> 00:10:35.539 And then where does this story take us? 00:10:36.379 --> 00:10:40.909 Well, um, I met a really nice person. 00:10:41.779 --> 00:10:44.659 She didn't know I was trans when I asked her out. 00:10:45.230 --> 00:10:55.039 And on the second date, she took me to a drag king show because she wanted to make sure I was cool with queers and gender non-binary and and trans folks. 00:10:55.460 --> 00:11:01.029 And I knew everybody there and I was terrified that they would come up and say, Hey, can you come here? 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:01.610 Give me a hug. 00:11:01.610 --> 00:11:01.820 You know? 00:11:01.821 --> 00:11:04.460 And I was like, I wanted to be able to out myself on my own terms. 00:11:04.461 --> 00:11:06.350 And thankfully they were running late. 00:11:06.679 --> 00:11:09.110 So we went and drank a bottle of wine outside. 00:11:09.110 --> 00:11:11.419 And then that was that I got to come out on my own terms. 00:11:11.659 --> 00:11:15.740 By the time I finished my master's in psychology, I was married. 00:11:16.070 --> 00:11:20.149 And, um, that's a story too, because we chose to elope. 00:11:20.179 --> 00:11:25.940 And part of the rationale for doing that was because our two sides of the family really haven't met. 00:11:26.149 --> 00:11:28.399 I'm not out to her side of the family. 00:11:28.850 --> 00:11:34.490 And that is a choice that we've made for my personal safety. 00:11:34.669 --> 00:11:35.600 They're lovely people. 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:36.529 They just don't know. 00:11:36.530 --> 00:11:39.200 And it's, we're very much at odds politically. 00:11:39.409 --> 00:11:44.629 Then I think it would probably be a difficult process, especially now we've been together just about 20 years. 00:11:44.990 --> 00:11:56.200 And, you know, I'm, I'm, I've always been okay with that, but like, my wife is really, really protective of me and doesn't to, um, cause any pain to me. 00:11:56.230 --> 00:11:59.289 And she also finds it my story to tell. 00:11:59.350 --> 00:12:05.679 So I, I became a therapist and I moved out of Seattle and that, that opened a lot of opportunities for me. 00:12:05.681 --> 00:12:21.850 Like the, the, the pros of being stealth as it were of not disclosing really, like in some ways it felt like I was free to explore different parts of my identity as, as a person living in a new town where no one was like really familiar to me. 00:12:21.970 --> 00:12:28.240 I wanted to discover myself as a therapist and what, what I enjoyed and what I ended up doing was working with youth and families. 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:36.460 I did work with parents, and then I had a few trans and gender questioning, um, teenagers on my caseload. 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:43.299 I was really concerned about like my boundaries, like how appropriate would it be for me to share with clients? 00:12:43.330 --> 00:12:48.220 And I'll tell you that, like not disclosing to the parents and caregivers was actually good. 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:58.419 And the reason for that is I think it allowed them to explore their own discomfort and process as they move through, like accepting their child, you know? 00:12:58.750 --> 00:13:03.460 And, and I think if they had known, perhaps they would have thought that I was over aligned with their child. 00:13:03.610 --> 00:13:16.029 And so I knew a remarkable amount about trans cycle, what it is to be trans and, but I also just really tried to allow them to, to really work through those, those thoughts and feelings about their children. 00:13:16.509 --> 00:13:24.190 So I made that decision and I just sort of, it just sort of became more of the norm to not disclose professionally. 00:13:24.580 --> 00:13:32.070 I also had really concerns about what people may think or how it may limit my opportunities to be out. 00:13:32.340 --> 00:13:41.039 How was that period for you in terms of your leg sense of attachment to the community and feeling of belonging? 00:13:41.370 --> 00:13:43.830 It was really hard to be disconnected from community. 00:13:43.860 --> 00:13:46.080 There were times where it was just so uncomfortable. 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:56.879 I am like unquestionably, you know, I, the way I see the world, the way I live, the way I, the way I think everything is this among the fringes, I'm just very. 00:13:57.269 --> 00:13:57.899 I'm very gay. 00:13:58.259 --> 00:14:10.889 And I think in some ways that my not disclosing as what's my colleagues, um, in some ways I may have shortchanged them, you know, not giving them the opportunity to really welcome me and know me entirely. 00:14:10.890 --> 00:14:13.200 And, um, I short-changed myself for sure. 00:14:13.201 --> 00:14:19.620 And just be like, you know, how it really limited, um, my ability to connect fully with people. 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:23.399 I got really used to not being vulnerable with people after a while. 00:14:23.400 --> 00:14:31.080 I just couldn't remember the last time I disclosed to somebody like it had been years aside from medical people who have absolutely needed to know. 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:36.779 So I really felt like that was it wasn't dishonest. 00:14:36.780 --> 00:14:37.980 It wasn't deceptive. 00:14:38.309 --> 00:14:43.529 And at the same time, we have so many depictions of us in the world of the surprise. 00:14:43.889 --> 00:14:50.820 You know, like it's like this, this disclosure thing where we're like deceptive and somehow just not very honest. 00:14:50.821 --> 00:15:04.309 And really that bothered me, you know, I felt pretty hopeless and I decided that I was going to apply for, uh, I always wanted to work with folks at a affirming place. 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:06.799 And it was terrifying to me. 00:15:07.340 --> 00:15:11.029 Um, one, because I think the meaning behind it is so big for me to be able to do that. 00:15:11.149 --> 00:15:15.679 I'd always held people in high regard who worked with our community who get paid for work for our community. 00:15:15.950 --> 00:15:21.559 And I also have heard messages that once you go get it for pay, you never gonna find another job, you know? 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:23.480 And I thought, I don't think that's true. 00:15:23.570 --> 00:15:24.559 I pushed back on that. 00:15:24.561 --> 00:15:26.120 So I'm going to apply in the cover letter. 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:28.399 I wrote at the bottom, I said, Hey, I'm a trans man. 00:15:28.820 --> 00:15:30.919 And I just want to work with my community. 00:15:30.921 --> 00:15:32.870 And I had spent a long time since I've been there. 00:15:33.259 --> 00:15:35.419 And I hope to hope to hear from you. 00:15:35.539 --> 00:15:38.120 And it has never been a thing. 00:15:38.539 --> 00:15:48.559 I mean, I was terrified during the interview just because I was nervous and I had several people that via zoom and I just felt like I was sort of a dinosaur, but thank God they hired me. 00:15:48.561 --> 00:15:50.179 And I'm, I'm here now. 00:15:50.181 --> 00:15:52.070 And in my bio, I have that. 00:15:52.071 --> 00:15:58.009 I transitioned up from Seattle and with every client, I talked to them and I let them know that I transitioned. 00:15:58.010 --> 00:16:02.629 And, um, I'm like so old compared to most of the people I see. 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:05.240 I absolutely love what I'm doing. 00:16:05.809 --> 00:16:09.169 Um, the place I work is so awesome. 00:16:09.259 --> 00:16:19.309 Like it's just, it helps me connect with clients in many ways to just be able to say, I think I had some people say I've never had a trans therapist before, or are you a trans? 00:16:19.311 --> 00:16:20.360 And I'm like, yeah, I am. 00:16:20.419 --> 00:16:22.070 You know, and then we just sort of move on. 00:16:22.970 --> 00:16:26.840 Um, but I can use it, you know, within, you know, appropriate boundaries. 00:16:26.841 --> 00:16:35.360 I can use it, I think as, as, as, um, a positive point, you know, I think that that's been just really affirming to just be who I am. 00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:36.100 So, um, 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:52.360 I'm really struck by the fact that, you know, you sort of spoke very positively about the ways that you were able to be helpful when you weren't disclosing about your, about your gender experience. 00:16:52.840 --> 00:17:07.210 And then you spoke very positively about the ways that you've been able to be helpful when you have disclosed your gender experience, um, which, which feels kind of great. 00:17:07.569 --> 00:17:18.849 I'm wondering, are there also differences in friendships between the people who, who know your gender history and the people who don't like? 00:17:19.269 --> 00:17:27.759 Cause it seems like you've been able to like make strong connections either way, but I wonder what the differences between them might be 00:17:28.690 --> 00:17:45.670 In, in some sense, it's really uncomfortable in the, in the past, it's been really uncomfortable, comfortable to watch someone do this mental accounting of going back, making sense of all the, the tells, you know, like if I share my identity with someone, they go, oh, let me go back. 00:17:45.671 --> 00:18:00.809 And think about the times when Kai was acting, maybe like, I don't know, like a woman or like, like not, not like cis-gendered, I don't know, or not straight, you know, so like I've seen that happen, but I also just really feel a sense of loss and missed opportunities by not sharing. 00:18:00.930 --> 00:18:06.630 And when it really becomes clear is when I do tell someone and the sense of relief, I feel. 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:21.900 So, um, my closest friend in New York, I knew him for three years and I'm a runner and we would get up every like three times a week at 4 45 in the morning, rain or shine, snow, sleet, whatever, and meet in the park and do our run. 00:18:22.349 --> 00:18:26.130 Like that guy was so reliable and it took me three years to tell him I was trans. 00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:29.279 And so we were talking about everything. 00:18:29.369 --> 00:18:30.720 He was like my straight boyfriend. 00:18:30.721 --> 00:18:31.859 He is amazing. 00:18:32.579 --> 00:18:34.200 And I love him so much. 00:18:34.201 --> 00:18:38.910 And I, and um, when I told them he was like, I'm so glad you told me. 00:18:39.450 --> 00:18:42.000 And he gave me a hug, you know, he's like, thank you. 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:42.690 You know? 00:18:42.691 --> 00:18:46.769 And we stopped around him, you know, he stopped around and I was like, oh my God, why did they wait so long? 00:18:46.829 --> 00:18:47.730 You know, you're awesome. 00:18:48.210 --> 00:18:51.289 And then I had two colleagues that, um, they're from New York. 00:18:51.329 --> 00:18:52.589 We still talk every month. 00:18:52.590 --> 00:18:58.049 We, um, we were former workmates and we have, we've formed like a little consultation group to provide support for each other. 00:18:58.589 --> 00:19:02.910 And I told them, last time we talked, I said, Hey, I just want you to know. 00:19:03.329 --> 00:19:20.220 And the same thing, I mean, like so much of it is like, in my mind, the fear that I have, because I have so much evidence that these people are so firming and so caring and wonderful because they follow over themselves to like, thank me and they love me and they didn't go through this. 00:19:20.221 --> 00:19:21.509 Like, what does that mean? 00:19:21.630 --> 00:19:22.920 You know, they just valued that. 00:19:22.921 --> 00:19:24.180 I shared that with them, you know? 00:19:24.181 --> 00:19:35.220 So when I hadn't told there is a difference because I mean, I, I have missed opportunities to connect with other queers, like go into, I was feel weird going to a gay bar. 00:19:35.250 --> 00:19:42.390 And then if I'm approached by someone who may be interested in me or curious about me and I say, yeah, I'm partnered. 00:19:42.391 --> 00:19:47.250 And then I mentioned, my wife, there was always a thing like, oh, you know, am I less than gay? 00:19:47.250 --> 00:19:58.349 Or am I by, or am I that, you know, there's always this sort of a conversation that happens around that or there, you know, like I've run on like gay, um, running, running clubs, front runners, same thing. 00:19:58.351 --> 00:20:04.559 So it's just sort of, you know, it's a little uncomfortable, you know, it's, it's better now you ride through it. 00:20:04.560 --> 00:20:08.460 But I, I definitely have missed, um, miss some connections. 00:20:08.461 --> 00:20:16.019 I mean, I can think about like, what, what made me not disclose, you know, at the time, but, um, it's mostly my own discomfort. 00:20:16.259 --> 00:20:20.579 Cause I really do think the people that I wanted to tell probably would have been just fine. 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:21.079 Do 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:37.700 You feel like you have lost time in some ways with your choice not to disclose, is that, does that feel like an accurate description and or what would be a more accurate one? 00:20:37.700 --> 00:20:43.460 Maybe I always feel like I have a 10 year, 10 year developmental lag when I think about my life. 00:20:43.859 --> 00:20:50.380 And, and part of that is because I, in my it's tied up in my gender and my sexuality. 00:20:50.710 --> 00:21:02.619 And, um, so as a younger person, I was not quite clear on who I was and I dropped out of college and I traveled and I didn't start dating until I was in college. 00:21:02.621 --> 00:21:07.089 And I didn't quite find myself till, till later, you know? 00:21:07.090 --> 00:21:09.369 And so I was behind in the dating scene. 00:21:09.371 --> 00:21:13.180 I was behind professionally is behind like educationally things like that. 00:21:13.539 --> 00:21:16.839 So I just think I've, I've had to catch up a little bit. 00:21:17.170 --> 00:21:22.180 And then I had to like figure out who I was in, in like a fuller sense. 00:21:22.750 --> 00:21:32.349 And I do have like periods where I'm really, um, like I had a lot of pain and loss and I, it is hard to talk about. 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:36.549 And it's hard to think about particularly around, um, family and friends. 00:21:37.210 --> 00:21:42.940 When I, when I transitioned, I, I opted to leave the lesbian community at the time. 00:21:42.941 --> 00:21:47.019 It was like a lot less flexible than it is now. 00:21:47.619 --> 00:21:49.779 Um, and I just felt like it wasn't the best spot for me. 00:21:50.740 --> 00:21:59.259 Um, I didn't feel like it was a label that really was, um, mine and I wanted to make sure to respect the space, the women's space. 00:21:59.740 --> 00:22:08.920 And, um, so for me, I, I left the lesbian community and I had some friends who chose not to communicate with me any longer. 00:22:09.430 --> 00:22:16.000 And so I experienced some loss and it was surprising in some sense, you know, uh, you know, depending on where people landed. 00:22:17.140 --> 00:22:21.549 Um, and in others, not, I'm happy to report the things have evolved over time. 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:25.569 It's not, it's not like that anymore to, to a large degree. 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:30.519 And so I left that community and then, um, I mean, most of the pain is probably around my family. 00:22:30.700 --> 00:22:39.160 And I also will say that after taking time, um, my mom like was the one, I think that's sort of like, who's the matriarch, right? 00:22:39.161 --> 00:22:45.880 And she, she never overtly said, um, you know, I don't accept you or I don't love you. 00:22:46.630 --> 00:22:49.930 Um, but it was, it was, um, very difficult for her. 00:22:50.589 --> 00:22:53.799 I think, um, we were, I was raised Irish Catholic. 00:22:53.890 --> 00:23:03.789 She was, she was certainly like liberal in so many ways, but I think I throw for a loop, you know, I think things don't end up over time, but I definitely like missed out on some events. 00:23:04.630 --> 00:23:13.150 Um, and then I just chose to just cut ties for awhile and then, um, and happy, happy to report that things have mended. 00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:23.109 And, um, after a couple of years, it just like I was fully embraced and, um, I have a wonderful relationship with my family. 00:23:23.140 --> 00:23:26.410 My dad is 91 and he he's a golfer. 00:23:26.470 --> 00:23:31.180 And he hangs out with people who are very conservative and some who are not, but that guy is an advocate. 00:23:31.181 --> 00:23:44.140 He'll call people out on the golf course and say, you know, if they make a homophobic joke or say something untoward, he will say, you know, you never know who's around you, that you may be offending or whose family members may be trans or whose family members may be gay. 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:46.190 And I'm just like, go on dad. 00:23:46.250 --> 00:23:46.519 Yeah. 00:23:46.549 --> 00:23:49.609 And then my mom, my mom passed away almost two years ago. 00:23:49.849 --> 00:24:05.420 And, um, you know, I, I love loved her and I have no doubt that she loved me and we ended on just, she just embraced me, you know, and I had such a wonderful relationship with her and I am very well supported by my three sisters. 00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:06.799 We're very close. 00:24:07.460 --> 00:24:16.609 Um, so that, that period was, you know, initially was hard and I, I didn't come out to extended family ward sort of trickled out, um, to my cousins and my uncles. 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:25.460 My mom had 13 kids in her family and my dad had like seven, so word got out, um, that, that I was trans and that my name. 00:24:25.461 --> 00:24:28.069 And now my godfather is one of my Facebook friends. 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:34.369 And, um, you know, things are like, everybody knows and it's been, it's been just fine, you know? 00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:35.390 So that's really good. 00:24:36.130 --> 00:24:38.200 I really appreciate that reflection. 00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:48.849 Um, is there any question that you sort of wished I would ask or like, do you have any, do you have any answers left in your bag looking for questions? 00:24:49.299 --> 00:24:49.660 Thank 00:24:49.660 --> 00:24:50.829 You for asking that. 00:24:51.099 --> 00:25:10.150 I guess I just say, you know, I think this is my story and the one person, and I just want to label that because I think there are plenty of good reasons to just to remain, you know, to not disclose, um, everyone, um, it's their own, their own journey. 00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:23.650 And I, this is about as Wu as I get, even though I'm a therapist, I'm not very, um, I think, I think it's just really important to, you know, this is my story and my experience where I, where I'm most comfortable and that everybody else shares that. 00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:32.470 And I know, I know it may be hard to wrap your head around if you're, if you're, you know, raised in a, in a generation that may be more accepting. 00:25:33.549 --> 00:25:41.109 Um, and, um, I'm thrilled that it's more accepting, you know, I, I can probably hear that I'm a fairly optimistic person. 00:25:41.230 --> 00:25:52.420 I also am very accepting of the, you know, the, the, the pain, uh, and the joy that it brought me here that I had to, I think I, the pain is what shaped me. 00:25:52.839 --> 00:26:01.329 The loss is what shaped me and the way of carrying around, you know, like remaining stealth and not disclosing was too great for me. 00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:15.160 So I chose to like shed it, you know, like F that, you know, so I, I'm not parading around town with like trans flag every day, but I certainly am like really comfortable disclosing. 00:26:15.180 --> 00:26:17.019 I, I I'm part of a running club. 00:26:17.020 --> 00:26:24.190 And I went running for the first time with someone and, um, were just on a group run and she asked, you know, are you married? 00:26:24.369 --> 00:26:25.119 Do you have kids? 00:26:25.180 --> 00:26:27.339 And so I thought, well, you have a choice here. 00:26:27.730 --> 00:26:29.470 So I said, yeah, I'm married. 00:26:29.589 --> 00:26:30.430 I said, I'm. 00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:32.589 Um, my wife knows. 00:26:33.819 --> 00:26:37.089 And, um, and also, um, you know, no, we don't have kids. 00:26:37.090 --> 00:26:38.230 And I said, I'm a trans guy. 00:26:38.230 --> 00:26:41.079 And I could never really produce what, what was needed at the time. 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:45.359 And it was something we, that we chose not to do, you know? 00:26:45.390 --> 00:26:48.180 And, and it just, wasn't a thing she said, oh, okay. 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:49.349 And we just kind of moved on. 00:26:49.619 --> 00:26:56.880 So that's one of the joys of being in Portland is like, you know, there are plenty of us around and you can't like, I, when I moved up here, I was just like, holy. 00:26:57.180 --> 00:26:58.440 There's people that look like me. 00:26:58.441 --> 00:27:07.440 There's people that think like me, even in the pandemic, you know, it's, there, there are a few people in the streets, but it just feels, I feel very much at home being among my people. 00:27:07.829 --> 00:27:09.089 So, and I missed that. 00:27:09.410 --> 00:27:19.339 I appreciated what you said about people needing to make their own choices for their own sense of safety and wellbeing. 00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:34.609 But I also appreciate in your story that you, like, you sort of modeled that you can make a choice and then you can make another choice when you outgrow a previous choice. 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:37.789 And I, and I, I feel like that could happen in any direction. 00:27:38.779 --> 00:27:39.589 Do you know what I mean? 00:27:40.460 --> 00:27:52.220 Um, that we can, that we can need different things in different places or, and at different times, um, and then make different choices to support that, including at the running club. 00:27:52.250 --> 00:27:55.880 Although, you know, I've been to Portland, I've got lots of Portland friends. 00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:12.200 Uh, there's a part of me that feels fairly confident that she got home from running and immediately, you know, texted her friends and was like, I have a new transgender friend in my running club, you know, just for the like extra points in Portland. 00:28:12.349 --> 00:28:12.349 Yeah. 00:28:12.380 --> 00:28:12.740 Yeah. 00:28:12.769 --> 00:28:27.049 I used to really fear now, you know, like once you tell someone, once I disclosed to someone it's out of my hands, you know, and that I used to spend time really worrying about that and thinking, who are they going to tell, what are they going to think about me? 00:28:28.190 --> 00:28:31.849 And I did, when I, when I said that I was like, no, I'm not going to do that. 00:28:32.420 --> 00:28:38.299 I'm just going to practice what I preach in therapy, which is, you know, like I have a choice about what happens between my ears. 00:28:38.809 --> 00:28:43.460 And I just decided to just like, let it be, just accept that it's out of my hands. 00:28:43.461 --> 00:29:02.480 And yeah, she's probably going to tell her husband that she has a new trans friend, maybe not, you know, but likely could be, you know, and yeah, maybe, maybe there'll be some brownie points, but here it's like the, the stakes are not as high here in Portland because I have the good fortune of living in a really accepting, like friendly, trans friendly place. 00:29:02.869 --> 00:29:03.559 It occurs 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:27.410 To me that like part of this narrative is, you know, you, you really struggled with feeling afraid and uncomfortable, but now literally for your job, you're helping other people to not feel afraid and uncomfortable and to not have those kinds of, of losses or, or, or gaps. 00:29:28.579 --> 00:29:36.049 Um, which just feels like a really beautiful sort of full circle to come to. 00:29:36.619 --> 00:29:37.339 I love what I do. 00:29:37.340 --> 00:29:38.420 I love going to work. 00:29:38.539 --> 00:29:39.559 I love meeting people. 00:29:39.560 --> 00:29:41.059 I love hearing people's stories. 00:29:41.470 --> 00:29:47.769 I love the, just the wide variety of identities that people embrace. 00:29:48.579 --> 00:29:51.730 It's so much less restrictive than it used to be. 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:54.519 Um, from when we had first came out as trans. 00:29:54.520 --> 00:29:59.410 And I just find that, um, extremely freeing for people and lovely to see. 00:29:59.411 --> 00:30:02.859 And, um, it's been, it's been a joy to be able to do that. 00:30:08.730 --> 00:30:22.049 Thanks for listening to the youth eldest podcast of big things for us to our sound editing team, Denato Hepburn and M Lovells with support from Maddie bowtie sta 00:30:22.859 --> 00:30:26.400 The youth elders podcast is produced by buddies and bad times theater. 00:30:26.609 --> 00:30:30.809 And it's funded in part by the theaters community and education partner, TD bank.