WEBVTT 00:00:00.179 --> 00:00:02.790 Hi, my name is Leslie cam 00:00:03.450 --> 00:00:05.429 And hello, my name is Ty Sloan, 00:00:06.120 --> 00:00:16.949 And this is season two of the youth elders podcast, creating space for identities, histories, and perspectives across generations. 00:00:20.899 --> 00:00:26.539 This season takes a look at personal stories of coming out, navigating identity and finding home 00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:35.659 While also discussing the impact of institutional spaces and activist movements on the very places we find 00:00:35.659 --> 00:00:36.350 Community. 00:00:36.929 --> 00:00:45.710 This season's episodes are curated and recorded by myself, Thai Sloan, Leslie Lee cam, Naomi bane, bear Bergman and Roma Spencer. 00:00:46.219 --> 00:00:50.899 Most of our recordings were made in Toronto on the traditional territories of the Anishinabek. 00:00:51.170 --> 00:01:00.020 The Holden has shown a and the wind that in treaty territory of the Mississaugas of the credit today's conversation is hosted by Roma Spencer and Iommi bank. 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:03.380 They're joined by Rania[inaudible] and Leroy nubile. 00:01:03.890 --> 00:01:11.930 You talk about what has changed for them in their work since a surge of support for black activism and organizing, following the murder of George Floyd in May, 2020 00:01:12.379 --> 00:01:17.480 And how they look both to the post and to the future as sources of hope, 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:25.370 Anti oppression, which shops are fashionable. 00:01:25.370 --> 00:01:40.969 Now it's the newest lolly flavor post to George Floyd organizations and various places, uh, seeking out the services of consultants, working from an anti-oppressive equity and inclusive framework. 00:01:42.260 --> 00:01:43.340 What are you doing now? 00:01:43.340 --> 00:01:47.780 That is different pre George Freud Rania. 00:01:48.200 --> 00:01:48.920 What's different. 00:01:49.819 --> 00:02:02.930 I think, um, you know, first thing I want to say is the pre and post George Floyd moment is a kind of a, um, line of demarcation that exists mostly for whiteness, right? 00:02:02.930 --> 00:02:14.180 For a lot of us that struggle the resistance and the violence is not only made clear in that moment, right? 00:02:14.181 --> 00:02:22.189 That might've been a moment of transformation or an awakening, but for like a larger community of people who are not black for black people, that's the world we always live in. 00:02:22.370 --> 00:02:29.539 So that moment is in a lot of ways, perpetual for a lot of institutions, they're worried about their reputations are worried. 00:02:29.540 --> 00:02:33.349 They'll be accused of being anti-black. 00:02:33.379 --> 00:02:40.159 They're recognizing that a community of people is watching their choices quite closely. 00:02:40.490 --> 00:02:47.840 There's a lot more interest in anti-racism work, whether that interest is genuine, whether it's impactful, I think it remains to be seen. 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:54.169 I think there's still a lot of ways that organizations are looking to train out problems that you can't train out. 00:02:54.530 --> 00:03:10.960 So there's a lot of focus on things like implicit bias or making it about people's hurt feelings rather than systems that are really deeply not only impacting the material realities and, uh, black life, but are also leading to faster, slow death for black people in communities. 00:03:11.860 --> 00:03:17.830 There's a lot more critical lens that communities of people are watching these trainings. 00:03:17.860 --> 00:03:19.449 We're not going to come in and do a workshop. 00:03:19.450 --> 00:03:23.860 And then you'll use this workshop as a shield to say, oh, well, we had the anti racism training. 00:03:23.860 --> 00:03:27.310 So we can't possibly have any issues going on anymore. 00:03:27.311 --> 00:03:31.180 Or we, we, you know, we worked with Rania, right? 00:03:31.181 --> 00:03:33.009 And I'm like, don't watch I, you speak on my day. 00:03:33.099 --> 00:03:37.750 And first of all, secondly, when I came in there, I said, this is not going to be enough. 00:03:37.780 --> 00:03:38.050 Right. 00:03:38.139 --> 00:03:44.979 Organizations are still trying to transact that work and not recognizing the deep relationships you need to do it. 00:03:45.009 --> 00:03:45.729 Meaningfully. 00:03:46.060 --> 00:03:49.539 I think what's happening now is there's also impatience. 00:03:50.110 --> 00:03:56.110 Like a lot of us have seen this movie before and we just want to know, first of all, where's the money out? 00:03:56.110 --> 00:03:57.490 Where is the transformation out? 00:03:57.610 --> 00:03:58.810 Where is the power sharing ads? 00:03:59.139 --> 00:04:00.610 Where's the transparency out? 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:01.990 Where is the accountability at? 00:04:02.379 --> 00:04:06.490 And not just the whole, oh, let's do a survey and see how people are feeling. 00:04:06.699 --> 00:04:07.270 It's communities. 00:04:07.389 --> 00:04:08.740 I've been telling you for a long time. 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:13.479 So I think in a, in a lot of ways, everything has changed and nothing has changed at all. 00:04:13.750 --> 00:04:23.410 Nothing has changed at all in the sense that the sort of default responses are the same, um, things like, oh, we have a problem with anti black racism. 00:04:23.411 --> 00:04:24.519 Let's put out a statement. 00:04:25.149 --> 00:04:26.740 Uh, we have a problem with anti-black racism. 00:04:26.769 --> 00:04:28.149 Let's put a policy in place. 00:04:28.151 --> 00:04:40.660 Let's have a task force, a committee, a round table, a working group, let's have a workshop, always this like singular thing that is supposed to address what is on ongoing reality. 00:04:40.661 --> 00:04:47.079 And it cannot be addressed through any one of those things or even a combination of those things in a temporary way. 00:04:47.290 --> 00:04:57.310 So in a lot of ways that hasn't changed the sort of our default responses to racism, particularly anti-black racism at the institutional level have pretty much remained the same. 00:04:57.610 --> 00:05:05.050 I think everything has changed in the sense that people or communities of people who were previously demanding training are now saying training. 00:05:05.050 --> 00:05:06.610 And this is what we want. 00:05:06.939 --> 00:05:13.240 That it's not enough that these institutions are going to pay us platitudes during black history month are going to put out a statement. 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:14.769 Then they continue to operate business. 00:05:14.889 --> 00:05:22.569 As usual are going to use the tokenized people from our communities as a way to avoid responsibility. 00:05:22.571 --> 00:05:25.060 There's a lot more that we can see through. 00:05:25.089 --> 00:05:30.790 We owe a lot of that to like, um, both historical and contemporary black organizing around it. 00:05:32.250 --> 00:05:32.250 Yeah. 00:05:32.819 --> 00:05:35.850 But have you found yourself a little busy enough? 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:37.439 Definitely. 00:05:37.440 --> 00:05:40.410 I think I'm lucky enough to be always busy. 00:05:40.860 --> 00:05:41.699 I'm lucky. 00:05:41.701 --> 00:05:42.120 I'm lucky. 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:43.319 I don't know capitalism. 00:05:43.321 --> 00:05:44.819 It's a little bit of both. 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:46.560 I'll give you an example. 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:50.910 So I usually get a hundred inquiries a month about there. 00:05:51.300 --> 00:05:55.230 I'm able to say yes to less than 10 of those inquiries. 00:05:55.230 --> 00:05:56.970 Usually my whole team is black. 00:05:57.230 --> 00:06:00.829 I don't want to put us through the kind of work cultures we're trying to escape out of. 00:06:00.831 --> 00:06:03.740 I want us to be able to have a good relationship with the work that we do. 00:06:04.189 --> 00:06:07.370 So that's normally before me, right? 00:06:07.459 --> 00:06:09.319 A hundred inquiries a month. 00:06:09.410 --> 00:06:14.300 Lots of them things I'm not even qualified to do or things that are not in my wheelhouse because people are like, oh, Rania, she's blocked. 00:06:14.300 --> 00:06:14.899 She does this. 00:06:14.901 --> 00:06:15.889 Let's just reach out to her. 00:06:15.891 --> 00:06:17.779 Right then came me. 00:06:17.810 --> 00:06:25.009 And in the month of may my team, I had to add two full-time people to my team just to answer the increase. 00:06:25.579 --> 00:06:32.899 So we got 1600 working Greece and 1500 media inquiries in one month, right? 00:06:32.901 --> 00:06:35.089 That's a hundred inquiries a day. 00:06:36.769 --> 00:06:38.449 So it changed drastically. 00:06:38.451 --> 00:06:42.319 There's a lot of interests and a lot of confused people who don't even know what they're asking. 00:06:42.860 --> 00:06:49.160 And a lot of media media requests that are really actually been the most upsetting part of that whole experience. 00:06:49.189 --> 00:07:00.709 85% of the media requests that I got in the immediate aftermath of the death of our kin, the murder of our kin George Floyd were about what white people should be doing at this moment. 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:04.220 What is it you think white allies should be talking about? 00:07:04.221 --> 00:07:07.910 What are the steps that white people need to take to end anti-black racism? 00:07:08.209 --> 00:07:11.120 What should white people be doing in this moment? 00:07:11.149 --> 00:07:14.329 How can white people talk to their racist family members? 00:07:14.331 --> 00:07:17.149 And I was like, wow, you really find a way to make this about you. 00:07:17.449 --> 00:07:17.449 Huh. 00:07:18.379 --> 00:07:24.439 Um, and it became such a really like indicative of the white centrism that exists even in anti-racism work. 00:07:24.440 --> 00:07:27.740 The first response is, oh, oh yeah, increase awareness. 00:07:27.740 --> 00:07:29.300 Get people to acknowledge it. 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:30.620 Talk about it. 00:07:30.740 --> 00:07:32.959 People have been reading and reflecting for 10 months. 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:35.149 Now we're coming up on a year. 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:36.350 What now? 00:07:36.379 --> 00:07:36.680 Right. 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:44.660 So there's a lot for me that is really frustrating about the media requests, centering wait experiences and not what do black communities need right now? 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:46.519 Uh, what do we need to heal? 00:07:47.149 --> 00:07:51.079 Um, what ha what are black people experiencing in this moment that is beyond drama? 00:07:51.081 --> 00:07:58.519 What has enabled us to see this, uh, this revolutionary moment for what it is, or in a part of an ongoing resistance? 00:07:58.521 --> 00:08:00.259 What are the histories of black resistance? 00:08:00.500 --> 00:08:08.509 There's a framing in media that all of this has been a passive change as opposed to change that has happened because black people have fought and died for it. 00:08:09.470 --> 00:08:13.160 Um, and, and those that we have solidarity with have fought and died for it. 00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:14.839 Not in the same ways, but they've been there. 00:08:15.290 --> 00:08:25.189 I want to like really underline the fact that a lot of the media responses are things like, I'm never going to tell you something that someone hasn't said before, right? 00:08:25.190 --> 00:08:25.370 Yeah. 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:26.750 I teach anti racism workshops. 00:08:26.779 --> 00:08:27.050 Yes. 00:08:27.050 --> 00:08:28.550 I sometimes teach, works opportunities. 00:08:28.550 --> 00:08:33.200 People had to talk to their racist family members, but I promise you, you can also Google it. 00:08:35.210 --> 00:08:35.570 Right? 00:08:35.571 --> 00:08:38.750 Like, so there's a, uh, an extractive tendency. 00:08:39.259 --> 00:08:41.509 And that's also what I mean when nothing has changed, right. 00:08:42.019 --> 00:08:45.740 That we'll go, we'll go to black people and black people will give us the answers. 00:08:45.740 --> 00:08:49.669 And yes, we have, we don't have all the answers, but we have most of them. 00:08:49.700 --> 00:08:53.149 But also we told y'all not only me personally. 00:08:53.150 --> 00:08:58.830 I told y'all last year, but every generation of my ancestors who came before has done this work. 00:08:58.831 --> 00:09:02.250 So I've taken no media requests, to be honest for my sanity. 00:09:02.580 --> 00:09:12.090 And also the other side of it is no sense of protection for the people you're going to take and put in front of you are racist readers and viewers, so on and so forth. 00:09:12.091 --> 00:09:16.470 Like you're going to bring me to an audience of people that is not had this conversation. 00:09:17.129 --> 00:09:20.580 And I'm going to deal with death threats on Twitter, not you. 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:21.179 Right. 00:09:21.210 --> 00:09:25.889 So the cost benefit analysis doesn't even begin to add up. 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:29.669 And the damage it can possibly do to my communities is just not worth it. 00:09:29.671 --> 00:09:34.379 So, yeah, there's a lot more interest in the conversation, but also it's an interest. 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:44.009 Like some people are not ready to have like a critical anti-racist education from the lens that I teach it from, because these are people who are still in, I don't see color. 00:09:45.090 --> 00:09:47.370 People would have to do a lot of their own foundation building. 00:09:47.370 --> 00:09:57.929 And self-teaching, so that's generally been my experience over the last year or so, but it's always been my experience doing this work just to a smaller extent or an extent. 00:09:58.110 --> 00:09:59.039 That's not as widespread. 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:03.049 Let's talk about post George Floyd. 00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:05.330 Give me an a scenario. 00:10:05.539 --> 00:10:17.720 Let's say an organization like buddies in bad times, theater call you in to do some work for them, with regards to looking at their own policies and systems and so on. 00:10:17.929 --> 00:10:20.990 What would that ideal day look like for, for you? 00:10:22.980 --> 00:10:29.429 So the first thing that I'll say is that it's going to look different in every context for an institution like buddy's, for example, yeah. 00:10:29.460 --> 00:10:32.700 You might come in and want to do some diagnostics, right? 00:10:32.730 --> 00:10:38.820 In a community level, through conversations, engagement, listening, listening to historical critiques you've already gotten. 00:10:38.821 --> 00:10:41.129 So we don't go back and ask people to tell us things. 00:10:41.130 --> 00:10:47.820 They've been screaming for years already, again at our convenience now, because we decided we want to listen at this moment. 00:10:48.779 --> 00:11:06.750 Um, uh, and analysis of systems like, uh, you know, an anti-racist anti-oppressive policy review and, uh, rethinking, because buddy's also is a place with a space there's a really strong need for a de-colonial and indigenous sovereignty lens, um, and support. 00:11:06.750 --> 00:11:20.220 So I would work collaboratively with some indigenous educators to make sure that we are, um, aligning our needs and the sort of values and frameworks of our communities and our ways of doing things because we're in a colonized place. 00:11:20.490 --> 00:11:37.649 The other piece around that is that it would look like, like a serious giving up space, serious power sharing, rarely do I come into a space like that and think I'm qualified to do all that work by myself, to be straight about all of this, like, look at the way that I look right. 00:11:37.710 --> 00:11:40.500 I have shade privilege in black communities. 00:11:40.500 --> 00:11:43.320 I have phenotype privilege in black communities. 00:11:44.309 --> 00:11:47.309 Feature is in privileges me more broadly in the world. 00:11:47.311 --> 00:11:58.389 My education privileges me broadly in the world, but the black people who are not always getting invited, we're not getting 1500 emails a month who definitely whose experiences and perspectives are valuable. 00:11:58.390 --> 00:12:04.330 So that would be an opportunity to bring in other voices, not this idea that they're going to hire me and I'm going to fix everything. 00:12:05.110 --> 00:12:12.850 Um, and then for that to be a relationship based approach and not a transactional approach, I hate how much requests for proposals. 00:12:12.850 --> 00:12:19.090 There are right now, a black, you know, our artists or educator organizer have to sit there and do all this unpaid work. 00:12:19.389 --> 00:12:24.100 You spend like two days putting together a proposal three days, you got to get samples of your work. 00:12:24.100 --> 00:12:25.629 You lay out all your best ideas. 00:12:25.630 --> 00:12:28.149 And then the institution decides to hire the cheapest consultant. 00:12:28.150 --> 00:12:28.419 Right? 00:12:28.750 --> 00:12:39.669 So to me, it looks like finding the right person for your context and being open to the fact that you might reach out to me and either you or me might realize I'm not the right person for this context or this space. 00:12:39.940 --> 00:12:44.139 And recognizing that when we come in to do this work, we leverage our personal relationships. 00:12:44.409 --> 00:12:55.659 And so that transparency and respect are non-negotiable when I come into a space like that, I don't only like put my energy on the line, but I put the relationships that I have in community on the line, right? 00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:00.789 So there's, there needs to be a recognition of that and institutional level. 00:13:01.090 --> 00:13:04.570 And then also like a buy-in that I'm not going to come in and train your junior staff. 00:13:04.571 --> 00:13:05.980 And your board is not going to care. 00:13:05.980 --> 00:13:07.929 Your senior leadership is not going to care. 00:13:08.169 --> 00:13:14.919 And it can't be this idea of inclusion or come as inclusion has come, as we are not come as you are. 00:13:15.610 --> 00:13:15.940 Right. 00:13:15.941 --> 00:13:18.399 Like if you can come as we are, we are, will include you. 00:13:19.029 --> 00:13:19.179 Right. 00:13:19.181 --> 00:13:21.759 But sometimes communities don't want to be included in the it nonsense. 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:22.600 Right? 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:24.789 Sometimes it makes absolutely no sense for them. 00:13:24.791 --> 00:13:34.179 So flexibility, openness resources, a willingness to account and apologize, um, and ability to say we made a critical error. 00:13:34.181 --> 00:13:35.679 We made a series of critical errors. 00:13:35.681 --> 00:13:41.080 We operated in ways that are harmful and then an ability also to engage in reparation. 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:47.049 So almost all of my clients, I insist on resources for reparation. 00:13:47.529 --> 00:13:49.750 Sometimes it looks like cutting a check to someone, right? 00:13:49.750 --> 00:13:54.460 Like an ability to do that is important at this point. 00:13:57.269 --> 00:13:58.590 Thank you for turning it over. 00:13:59.009 --> 00:14:05.039 So Leroy, you have been doing activism and community organizing for how many years now? 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:10.350 Um, since I was, I would say about 20 years, 00:14:11.370 --> 00:14:12.179 20 years. 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:34.710 So I want to know from when you started organizing to where we see organizing and activism going right now, what shifts has happened, if there have been major shifts in this era of activism, post George Floyd, what do you see the difference really being 00:14:36.990 --> 00:14:50.490 Well, when I was young, I always wanted to be part of a time where there would be a black liberation movement that felt like it has the momentum and power of the movement for black lives. 00:14:51.019 --> 00:15:10.399 And around 2015, I really noticed that the prominence, um, of the discussion around abolition and the discussion around police brutality really was taken to another level by black organizers and pushed to the forefront. 00:15:11.049 --> 00:15:18.740 Um, again, and that's been a really powerful thing to be a part of and post George Floyd. 00:15:19.309 --> 00:15:32.600 I think that there's a resurgence, like people have been talking about of interests in, um, black organizing and finding abolitionists solutions, um, finding transformative solutions. 00:15:33.019 --> 00:15:51.710 But there's also a lot of, um, surface level engagement and performative engagement in so far as the reputational risk aspect, where companies are doing performative things to address anti-black racism on a surface level. 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:59.509 And, um, Naomi and I do a black liberation comic book club for youth. 00:15:59.570 --> 00:16:02.480 And we were just in session with them right before this call. 00:16:02.750 --> 00:16:14.509 And they were even calling it out at 12 and 13 years old, talking about how, um, you know, companies are saying, okay, uh, we recognize that there's problems with anti-black racism. 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:18.019 We are going to stop locking up our black hair products. 00:16:19.220 --> 00:16:28.159 Um, so, um, and like one people are admitting that that's their practice, that they have these severe anti-black racist practices. 00:16:28.160 --> 00:16:30.529 And to, that's not what we're asking for. 00:16:30.530 --> 00:16:31.730 We're not asking for that. 00:16:31.730 --> 00:16:37.850 We're asking for an end to police brutality, we're demanding that black people stop being killed by police. 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:42.559 We are demanding that black people stop being incarcerated at alarming rates. 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:48.919 We're demanding real solutions in terms of allowing communities to self-direct education. 00:16:48.950 --> 00:16:52.580 So there's also a lot of that performative engagement happening. 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:56.889 I think he touched on something that was really important. 00:16:56.890 --> 00:17:07.750 I thank you for bringing that up, which is our children and the way that they interact with the world around them and even understanding these concepts. 00:17:08.859 --> 00:17:29.140 Um, what has the shift been from, let's say in 2016, to when we first started introducing freedom school and these concepts, how have you seen, uh, kids in youth understands these movements and what has been their response to these things? 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:42.700 Well, I think that kids and youth black kids and black youth always have been engaging in creative ways, very differently from adults or people who, um, grew up when I did. 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:51.269 And I think the difference is that a lot of times this is so important, but we fight against systems. 00:17:52.170 --> 00:17:54.539 Um, we fight against systems for our survival. 00:17:54.540 --> 00:17:58.650 We fight it against systems because they're detrimental to our existence. 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.490 And there is ways that systems respond. 00:18:02.789 --> 00:18:05.160 So they respond with the consultations. 00:18:05.250 --> 00:18:08.519 They respond with prove anti-black racism exists. 00:18:08.910 --> 00:18:13.410 They respond with, okay, we'll give mandatory anti-racism training to our staff. 00:18:14.009 --> 00:18:15.269 Uh, they respond like that. 00:18:15.270 --> 00:18:34.769 And young people have, um, watched black activism unfold over decades in this country and have moved from not only fighting against systems, but creating parallel spaces and new spaces where blackness is centered. 00:18:34.980 --> 00:18:46.410 So for example, ballroom scene is creating a space where there isn't going to be a fight with the system for recognition of our humanity and our beauty and our brilliance. 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:49.950 There's just going to be a space where black trans women are. 00:18:50.220 --> 00:18:51.900 It they're at the center. 00:18:52.230 --> 00:18:58.740 They are, you know, the most beautiful and everybody else who would like to engage is going to be part of that space. 00:18:58.740 --> 00:19:03.240 It's by black and trans people for black and trans people. 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:17.160 And I think those are the type of activism that are so energizing because we really just get to create the spaces that we see and love and value, um, blacks, blackness within those spaces. 00:19:17.161 --> 00:19:31.170 So, um, freedom schools and another example, it's important for us to continue to engage within the system because many of our young people don't have a choice about whether to be there, whether to go to school. 00:19:31.710 --> 00:19:48.720 Um, so we'll never turn our backs and not engage with the system, but at the same time, we can be energized by creating solutions outside of it and not having to follow the frameworks and policies of institutions that are harmful and violent to black people. 00:19:50.349 --> 00:19:51.279 Thank you for that. 00:19:52.180 --> 00:20:31.089 Um, there's so many things that you just touched on from, uh, black libertarian movements, like ballroom and the reclaiming of space, the reclaiming of not having to look to the mainstream or into white, uh, colonized spaces for our freedom or what we're doing inside of the school systems with a lot of our black youth, what do you think a decolonized, uh, school system could look like as we're continuing to push back and fight for these things? 00:20:31.630 --> 00:20:38.230 How do you see education playing a role in where we are going with activism right now? 00:20:38.380 --> 00:20:41.589 And how was that being formed in the class? 00:20:43.619 --> 00:20:56.650 Well, I think it's really important that, um, institutions who are harming black children acknowledge that there is no need to invent a way to engage black youth. 00:20:56.950 --> 00:20:58.450 That's safe. 00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:06.579 That honors them, that is creative because these spaces already exist in the community all over the place. 00:21:06.849 --> 00:21:20.769 There's tons of black community organizations that engage, um, black children through the arts, um, through different movements based practices, um, in like so many different ways. 00:21:20.770 --> 00:21:23.920 And there just needs to be an acknowledgement that that's happening. 00:21:24.339 --> 00:21:30.190 What are these tenets of black liberatory education that community organizations are using? 00:21:30.191 --> 00:21:48.910 For example, intersectionality, land-based learning, uh, transformative justice, disability justice, bringing the family in and respecting parents and family as the first educators of black children approaching black families and parents with love and respect. 00:21:49.269 --> 00:21:54.130 So there are definitely models out there in the community for how to engage. 00:21:54.460 --> 00:22:02.170 And I think it's just a matter of how much the school system is willing to observe humbly and incorporate some of those tenants. 00:22:02.740 --> 00:22:19.539 And I also think that ultimately it's a movement for self-determination and education and that black parents should have control of what our kids are learning and that, um, the most marginalized black families should be centered within that as well, too. 00:22:19.540 --> 00:22:24.940 So I love to see just any initiative of community self-determined education. 00:22:26.109 --> 00:22:27.160 Thank you so much for that. 00:22:27.730 --> 00:22:30.069 I'm going to hand it off to Roma right now. 00:22:30.750 --> 00:22:44.519 So Rania black lives matter movement has made white supremacy, a national narrative, pretty George Floyd, white supremacy was spoken in tempered tunes. 00:22:45.089 --> 00:22:55.920 How have you pivoted around this and anti systemic racism without having to speak from a place of caution, not wanting to ruffle feathers? 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:59.009 Or were you ever in that position around here? 00:23:00.059 --> 00:23:00.059 No, 00:23:00.059 --> 00:23:00.480 I don't. 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:13.349 I don't know that any of us who like live in the world in the bodies we live in, or, you know, especially those of us who are artists and who are organizers and who are educators just being in a space ruffles feathers, right? 00:23:13.589 --> 00:23:22.740 Just being in a space where your hair, the way you want to wear your hair, speaking in the way that you speak, you ruffle feathers, you're unprofessional, your, you sound educated. 00:23:22.859 --> 00:23:24.150 You're making people uncomfortable. 00:23:24.151 --> 00:23:25.859 People feel unsafe around you. 00:23:25.861 --> 00:23:26.819 You're aggressive. 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:28.319 You have an attitude problem. 00:23:28.349 --> 00:23:37.559 And I have an attitude problem before I even said anything by virtue of the body that I walked into the room with, let alone demanding to be treated with any level of respect. 00:23:37.589 --> 00:23:45.089 So I learned a long time ago that there is a level of this that you do subconsciously and is part of protecting yourself in his face. 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:57.079 And there's a level of it that is about centering white feelings and white comfort over the actual safety of people and going into spaces that don't have a good distinction between discomfort and harm. 00:23:57.769 --> 00:24:00.710 They expect their own comfort, even at the expense of your harm. 00:24:00.711 --> 00:24:44.000 So I think a long time ago, I just made my peace with saying what I wanted to say and naming white supremacy for what it is I think what's happening right now is yes, there's an openness about explicitly talking about white supremacy, but it's still thinking of white supremacy as something that white supremacists specifically being overt, Neo Nazi, KKK white power affiliated folks do, but can't see the white supremacist ways and thinking that, you know, it's it a community's job to let you know what's wrong with your institution, or can't see the white centric ways in which they say, well, no, we just pick the art on based on how good the art was, this idea of merit. 00:24:44.089 --> 00:24:47.450 I can't see the white supremacy in, at their kitchen table. 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:50.839 So yeah, people are more openly talking about white supremacy. 00:24:50.840 --> 00:24:51.920 I think it's trendy. 00:24:51.921 --> 00:24:56.150 I think a lot of the people talking about white supremacy are white supremacists themselves. 00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:10.099 And can't see the ways in which, you know, white supremacy shows up in their practice and the space between them and the work that they do in the institutions they uphold, it's the water that we were in and that some of us are struggling to, to survive it. 00:25:10.130 --> 00:25:11.990 And for other people it's the perfect climate. 00:25:11.990 --> 00:25:12.289 Right. 00:25:12.589 --> 00:25:14.809 And can't see it because it's so normalized. 00:25:14.810 --> 00:25:21.619 So yeah, I don't think that I have any level of caution any more than I normally do. 00:25:22.069 --> 00:25:36.500 I think because I've been an organizer for so long and because I'm a femme, people feel a certain type of entitlement to like speak to me a certain way or to do threaten me or feel that I'm going to make myself smaller. 00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:39.140 So I've always had really good safety planning. 00:25:39.740 --> 00:25:51.619 I've been an organizer now for 16 years, I've just learned to like tread the water in the ways that I need to, I've learned to keep myself safe and have safety planning. 00:25:51.621 --> 00:25:59.420 You know, I organized in a frontline capacity with sex workers, um, with people escaping, you know, intimate partner violence. 00:25:59.421 --> 00:26:02.930 So I learned a lot from my community about keeping myself safe. 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:05.119 So I have strategies. 00:26:05.121 --> 00:26:09.890 I have support networks, but generally speaking, I don't think they have, I have any more caution. 00:26:10.250 --> 00:26:11.450 Do I get more hate? 00:26:11.539 --> 00:26:11.960 Yes. 00:26:11.990 --> 00:26:13.400 Do I get explicit threats? 00:26:13.460 --> 00:26:14.029 Always. 00:26:14.180 --> 00:26:15.650 It's always been a part of my work. 00:26:15.651 --> 00:26:26.299 And I now just have better systems and ways of dealing with keeping myself safe and a lot better safety planning and a lot better emotional and community interventions. 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:34.369 I think a lot of people have fallen into a false sense of safety around explicitly talking about white supremacy. 00:26:34.700 --> 00:26:39.049 What we forget to understand is these institutions deal in liberation only as theory. 00:26:39.259 --> 00:26:41.029 They don't know what it looks like in practice. 00:26:41.269 --> 00:26:47.549 So any actions that are tangible towards black freedom feel like a threat to the institution. 00:26:47.700 --> 00:26:54.960 So while it can talk about black freedom in a lot of ways, when it comes to doing the work, it punishes black people for those things. 00:26:55.289 --> 00:26:59.279 So a lot of people are feeling like, yeah, I can call out anti-black racism at my work. 00:26:59.280 --> 00:27:00.599 Now there's a space for that. 00:27:01.019 --> 00:27:01.589 And they do. 00:27:01.590 --> 00:27:03.630 And they experienced consequences, right? 00:27:03.631 --> 00:27:08.250 The consequences black people always experienced for addressing racism in their lives. 00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:16.799 It's created a false sense of safety that is not actually safe for black people, but this idea that you can talk to us, you can tell us what's wrong. 00:27:16.800 --> 00:27:26.039 We want to work with black communities and the punishment, and that might not be as swift or direct, but these institutions pretty much only deal in punishment, right? 00:27:26.460 --> 00:27:30.210 That I can come to a space and I can say, Hey, if you're going to work with me, I'm an abolitionist. 00:27:30.211 --> 00:27:38.880 Which means when I look at your policies, I'm literally going to build systems in the policies for divesting, from policing, for not calling the police. 00:27:38.881 --> 00:27:45.119 It means if you have a program that is presented in conjunction with the police Squire, that's not happening anymore. 00:27:45.329 --> 00:27:47.190 Otherwise I'm not going to be in this space. 00:27:47.400 --> 00:28:03.119 And so that exposes you to like real harm and vitriol because people are attached to their institutions, are attached to the things that keep them safe in a culture of white supremacy, and can't understand the ways in which they need to divest from those spaces. 00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:08.400 So yeah, people talk about white supremacy, but people deal in white supremacy every single day. 00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:14.490 And we forget that we still live in a world where anti-black racism is still the most accessible currency of white supremacy. 00:28:14.490 --> 00:28:25.440 So everybody deals in it and that it's not just the black people versus white people think that every community of people is deeply invested in anti-black racism and anti-blackness. 00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:38.640 And so we're navigating spaces where people who claim to be allies, um, will trade in your dehumanization if it means greater access for them and a system that rewards them for it. 00:28:38.641 --> 00:28:42.839 So, yeah, I don't know that I, I tread any differently than I always have. 00:28:43.289 --> 00:28:51.779 I just know that I'm way more weary of anybody who proclaims their politics, just as something they articulate. 00:28:52.170 --> 00:28:59.609 In words, I saw a tweet the other day that was like, don't tweet, support black women tonight and talk over me in the zoom meeting tomorrow. 00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:04.859 And then first thing, when we're working tomorrow, you're going to talk over me in a zoom meeting, right? 00:29:04.861 --> 00:29:05.250 You're not. 00:29:05.369 --> 00:29:06.750 So you're disrespecting you right now. 00:29:06.750 --> 00:29:28.799 The same people who talked to me, who talk a particular political game, and can't actually back up those politics with the ways they treat actual black people in their lives, not random strangers on the internet, so I'm jaded and weary, but I'm also, I also know freedom is, and is a constant struggle. 00:29:28.800 --> 00:29:36.150 And liberation is an achievable outcome that hasn't changed for me either, but I'm just looking upon everybody with a lot of suspicion 00:29:37.890 --> 00:29:39.750 And Naomi, Hey, 00:29:40.049 --> 00:29:40.589 Hey friends. 00:29:41.289 --> 00:29:55.960 One thing that is always very interesting for me is that when we look at a lot of these movements and when we start talking about love, these moments, it is often talked about from an Americanized point of view. 00:29:56.859 --> 00:30:04.900 Even in this conversation, we approached it from the perspective of what happens after George Floyd. 00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:15.880 Um, one thing I do know is that while George Floyd was happening in Canada, we had our own story happening as well, once it came to Regis. 00:30:17.049 --> 00:30:25.599 Um, so, and it is often believed that, you know, here in Canada, we don't experience the same racism. 00:30:26.230 --> 00:30:29.470 We don't have the same issues that America does. 00:30:30.609 --> 00:30:36.069 Um, I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about the myth of the great free north. 00:30:37.589 --> 00:30:38.190 Yeah. 00:30:38.250 --> 00:31:07.619 A lot of times when this conversation comes up, um, about comparing us to the United States, um, especially, uh, in the area of police brutality, I feel that it's so bizarre because it's just such a strange moral compass to look at a place where black people are killed by police every, what was it, eight to 28 to 28 hours or something like that, and then decide based on that moral compass, whether or not you have a problem. 00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:20.880 And I think that even without looking at that, considering that as a moral compass, Canada just clearly does have an urgent and out of control issue with police brutality. 00:31:21.809 --> 00:31:34.380 And I think that, um, the myth of the great free north is, um, what contributes to the ongoing eraser of black activism in Canada. 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:48.660 So Canada has its own history of enslavement, its own histories of segregation, its own, um, present realities of incarnations of enslavement and police brutality. 00:31:49.289 --> 00:32:06.210 But yet when we ask youth about what they learn about blackness in school, they tell us that they learn nothing or they learn about Martin Luther king and Rosa parks, or if it is about Canada, they learn about the underground railroad. 00:32:06.750 --> 00:32:23.819 And I think that this is really deliberate because it means that, um, in Canada, we could pretend white people could pretend that, um, this was the safe Haven and this is not the place that has its own shady history and its own shady ways of continuing to operate. 00:32:24.509 --> 00:32:30.420 Um, and the stories of people like Chloe Cooley, like Maddie, Joseph Angelique, those stories will just be erased. 00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:43.759 And I think it's also very connected to, um, to now, because if we erase those histories activism, then we won't be aware of how to resist. 00:32:44.119 --> 00:32:54.109 So for example, um, black action defense committee was very active in fighting against police brutality in the 1990s within the education system. 00:32:54.529 --> 00:32:57.170 And what kinds of things were they offered? 00:32:58.039 --> 00:33:06.559 Um, they were offered free anti-black, uh, they were offered anti-black racism training for every level of staff within the TDSB within the board. 00:33:06.950 --> 00:33:10.220 That's the same thing that's being offered to activists now. 00:33:11.420 --> 00:33:19.849 Um, you know, how many decades later, so we need to be aware of these histories of resistance so that we can avoid the same pitfalls. 00:33:20.299 --> 00:33:25.549 If those histories of resistance continue to be erase, it makes progress very challenging. 00:33:26.119 --> 00:33:39.529 In 2008, um, we were told that the Afrocentric alternative school is going to open, and this is the first public Afrocentric school that's going to open in Canada's history. 00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:40.640 That's not true. 00:33:41.029 --> 00:33:49.759 Black people have been fighting for, um, a black focus public school for decades and have achieved that many times over in the seventies. 00:33:49.760 --> 00:33:51.890 There was programs that were implemented. 00:33:52.250 --> 00:34:02.299 So it's so important that we fight back against this constant eraser and that stories like, um, resistance in Africville are really pushed to the forefront. 00:34:02.329 --> 00:34:17.030 This is one of the things that, um, freedom school really wants to focus on is what are our histories of black resistance here in Toronto, here in Canada and in the places that we're from the global diaspora as well, those places that were connected to 00:34:18.219 --> 00:34:20.530 You bring up such an important thing. 00:34:20.530 --> 00:34:37.389 When you talk about the anti-black racism that we face here in Canada, um, as I travel and as I go to different places, people are often so surprised when I tell them that yeah, there's racism in Canada. 00:34:37.989 --> 00:34:38.440 Yeah. 00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:40.449 There's police brutality in Canada. 00:34:40.869 --> 00:34:45.460 We are not safe and we are all affected by this no matter where we are. 00:34:46.449 --> 00:34:49.599 Um, so I thank you for touching on that. 00:34:50.590 --> 00:35:01.360 Um, and I thank you for coming up with some of those solutions of how we resist these things and it's forthcoming and how we fight back against police. 00:35:02.980 --> 00:35:08.920 Um, what do you think the future of activism holds in Canada? 00:35:09.369 --> 00:35:30.849 Moving forward, looking to the future, looking to a brighter future, where our kids are growing up, where kids are able to take on this role, uh, what are your hopes for what activism looks like after George Floyd, after whoever the next case is going to be? 00:35:31.389 --> 00:35:33.789 What is your ideal world looking like? 00:35:35.980 --> 00:35:40.739 Well, I think, or kids are already so involved in activism. 00:35:40.769 --> 00:36:07.230 I feel like, unfortunately we're probably never going to see a world, um, in our lifetime or theirs where there isn't a need to resist against anti-black racism, but I hope that, um, and like I see with this next generation that, um, they're so confident in expressing who they are in terms of intersectionality, um, the movement for black lives. 00:36:07.231 --> 00:36:12.090 Wasn't the first movement to be led by black and trans people by any means. 00:36:12.510 --> 00:36:22.050 I think that anytime that there's been black liberation movements or black resistance movements, it's always been and trans people at the forefront of those movements. 00:36:22.889 --> 00:36:47.250 Um, black, CIS women, black people, black trans people at the forefront, but in this movement, people were no longer comfortable with putting that to the side or saying that, okay, we're going to focus on, um, CIS male black experiences now because we need to center that, um, people aren't willing to put up with that anymore and people are bringing more of their whole selves to activism. 00:36:48.090 --> 00:36:52.079 Um, and I feel like that's really important and beautiful to see. 00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:57.929 And I feel like our young people are like that even more they're insisting on bringing every part of them to a space. 00:36:58.769 --> 00:37:08.690 And they are also, um, very, just so informed, so brilliant and having some of those transformative justice solutions. 00:37:08.690 --> 00:37:31.949 So thinking outside the box in terms of, um, abolition doesn't mean that instead of having prisons, we have, um, you know, um, bracelets that people wear at home, that it means that we need whole new solutions and we can look into our histories to find those solutions of how to reduce harm and violence, um, that are not punitive. 00:37:33.050 --> 00:37:39.949 Thank you for also saying that that was something that you just sparked in my head is the intersectionality of activism. 00:37:40.730 --> 00:37:51.860 I feel like when you say people are no longer having to hide who they are to be on these front lines, um, that is super important as well. 00:37:52.429 --> 00:38:08.809 But I feel like looking at movements like BLM, looking at things like this, a lot of resistance has come about with these conversations, still trying to exclude, uh, folks, trans folks, um, disabled folks. 00:38:09.260 --> 00:38:16.670 Can you also touch a little bit on the intersectionality of activism for the future and why that is so important? 00:38:17.690 --> 00:38:46.690 Well, it's important because the movement for black lives was founded by black women, black women, but just as quickly as it started, we then, um, so quickly had a need to say all black lives matter and a need to say trans lives matter because although we may be moving from a certain intersectional standpoint, the media is still not interested in the survival of black trans people. 00:38:46.929 --> 00:38:54.429 So things are always that focus is always going to be recentering black, CIS men, if anybody. 00:38:54.940 --> 00:39:09.190 So there's just a constant need for us to look at intersectionality and look at whether those of us who are most marginalized in the community are actually having our voices listened to. 00:39:09.670 --> 00:39:21.369 And whether, you know, um, like Rania was talking about before, it's like people who have light-skinned privilege, voices will be prioritized within the movement. 00:39:21.371 --> 00:39:25.510 People who are cisgendered, um, will be prioritized within the movement. 00:39:25.510 --> 00:39:32.860 So we have to be vigilant in ourselves to, to make sure that, um, space and power is being shared as well. 00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:36.150 Thank you so much Roma. 00:39:36.869 --> 00:39:42.179 And this is something I think, um, both Leroy and, um, and Rania could chime in on. 00:39:43.170 --> 00:39:47.579 Um, I think, uh, Leroy has touched on it to bring Ronnie in as well. 00:39:47.789 --> 00:39:54.539 Would we ever reach the future without having to continuously be a watch dog for Reese? 00:39:54.869 --> 00:39:59.489 I mean, in other words, would your work ever become redundant? 00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:03.840 I mean, that's, that's the goal. 00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:09.000 I don't want to, whatever work we don't do, we leave for our children around this. 00:40:09.001 --> 00:40:09.329 Right. 00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:13.650 And I think for me, when I became a parent, it became the future became less abstract. 00:40:13.980 --> 00:40:16.110 It was like right in front of me asking me for apple juice. 00:40:16.110 --> 00:40:19.110 Like it wasn't this maybe time. 00:40:19.500 --> 00:40:23.369 So I think definitely there, we will get to freedom. 00:40:23.371 --> 00:40:24.989 I don't know that I'll see it in my lifetime. 00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:33.690 We have to acknowledge that helps us feel less heavy, is that our resistance as possible because of the resistance of those who came before us. 00:40:34.019 --> 00:40:39.750 And what we do now is we build a stronger foundation for the resistance that comes after us. 00:40:39.751 --> 00:40:40.110 Right. 00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:46.800 We have taken our freedom by our own hands, literally and figuratively time and time again. 00:40:47.789 --> 00:40:52.920 Um, and to me, that's the inevitable trajectory of black life is towards our own freedom. 00:40:53.250 --> 00:40:55.530 So exactly a Leroy many times over. 00:40:55.530 --> 00:40:56.789 So we've done this already. 00:40:56.791 --> 00:40:57.869 We know how to do this. 00:40:58.409 --> 00:41:00.150 Um, and it's freedom is an iterative thing. 00:41:00.150 --> 00:41:02.969 It isn't a destination we arrive at and we remain there. 00:41:03.210 --> 00:41:17.309 It is something we struggle for every day and constantly, um, it's just softening that struggle and not making it the kind of space where we have to martyr ourselves to get these wins, um, to build a foundation for the generation that comes after us. 00:41:17.460 --> 00:41:21.510 I don't want my kids and their children to have to be doing anti-racism training. 00:41:21.809 --> 00:41:24.840 Honestly, people sometimes call me obsessed with race. 00:41:24.969 --> 00:41:32.909 And I say, listen, I would rather never talk about race, but it's not an option because it defines so much of my life. 00:41:32.929 --> 00:41:45.079 So that I would like for that to be the place that we get to that black people are able to just live full lives in which we're not defined against a backdrop of whiteness as the measure. 00:41:45.619 --> 00:41:47.420 So I know we'll get there. 00:41:47.420 --> 00:41:56.210 It's just, I want to do my part in it so that our future generations have it a little bit easier, but I know that freedom is coming. 00:41:57.829 --> 00:41:59.210 Freedom is coming. 00:42:01.190 --> 00:42:02.630 Um, Leroy, how do you feel about that? 00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:09.590 Do you think that there will be a time, you know, future when we don't have to think about, you know, policy? 00:42:09.769 --> 00:42:10.400 No worries 00:42:13.150 --> 00:42:14.050 In a war lifetime? 00:42:15.010 --> 00:42:29.469 I don't think so, but I do think that whenever I hear, um, young black people open their mouth and speak, I just feel like all power over the society should be relinquished to them. 00:42:30.250 --> 00:42:36.070 I am hopeful that optimism came to me post George Floyd. 00:42:36.070 --> 00:42:47.260 When I saw in the middle of a pandemic, we were told to isolated, separate, pointy, and stay at home and post job Floyd people took to the streets. 00:42:47.260 --> 00:42:50.530 They, they disbanded that whole notion of isolation. 00:42:50.739 --> 00:42:55.329