WEBVTT 00:00:00.059 --> 00:00:02.370 Hi, my name is Leslie Lee cam. 00:00:02.430 --> 00:00:04.200 Hello, my name is Ty Sloan 00:00:04.349 --> 00:00:15.089 And this is season two of the youth elders podcast, creating space for identities, histories, and perspectives across generations. 00:00:19.850 --> 00:00:25.100 This season takes a look at personal stories of coming out, navigating identity and finding homes 00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:34.520 While also discussing the impact of institutional spaces and activist movements on the very places we find community. 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:43.429 This season's episodes are curated and recorded by myself, Tai Sloan, Leslie Lee cam, Naomi Bain, bear Bergman and Roma Spencer. 00:00:43.909 --> 00:00:52.850 Most of our recordings were made in Toronto on the traditional territories of the Anishinaabi, the[inaudible] and the wind deck and treaty territory of the Mississaugas of the car. 00:00:53.659 --> 00:01:02.240 This episode is a round table discussion on aging access and desirability as square people. 00:01:02.509 --> 00:01:08.689 And in particular, a square people of color Roma, Spencer and I co-host. 00:01:09.049 --> 00:01:18.200 And we're joined by three wonderful guests for the conversation, Knute Lawrence, Carol tins, and Debbie Douglas. 00:01:27.530 --> 00:01:31.519 You know, this podcast, I call it as the podcast of reckoning. 00:01:31.790 --> 00:01:37.069 And I say recommend because I am reconciled with my chocolate over the years. 00:01:37.129 --> 00:01:38.989 It's been a while. 00:01:39.109 --> 00:01:45.260 I know Leslie been trying to get me on board and involved with a youth elder projects and stuff. 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:50.120 And I was like, well, me and 60 years old, I know elder. 00:01:50.689 --> 00:02:01.670 You know, so for, for some years I kept, you know, docking Leslie, because as I said, I don't consider myself a senior or elder. 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:07.819 Um, and I do thank God for probably the pandemic. 00:02:07.849 --> 00:02:16.939 I mean, everybody will know how senior I am, because I certainly and have the luxury to continuously be putting the color in the hair to hide the grids. 00:02:18.830 --> 00:02:19.370 I 00:02:19.370 --> 00:02:27.770 Kind of helped start to really reconcile with it because, you know, I realized that I'm not a youth in the community. 00:02:28.430 --> 00:02:39.080 Um, in, in, especially in the theater community, in the theater world here in Toronto, they are looking to what's me as this, this seniors, this elder and that sort of thing. 00:02:39.530 --> 00:02:45.740 And I have no other choice, but to, to, to accept it, I mean, who am I to tell them, hello? 00:02:45.741 --> 00:02:46.939 No, I'm not a senior. 00:02:46.941 --> 00:02:52.189 You can't look towards me as no, no icon, or you can look towards me as no role model. 00:02:52.191 --> 00:02:52.969 I can't do that. 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:56.360 So my little way of reconciling and saying, you know what? 00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:57.500 I am an elder. 00:02:57.800 --> 00:03:07.900 I'm not quite a, but it's a nice way of reconciling and seeing, you know, even though I'm not quite, I'm not 60 years old years yet I am getting there. 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:08.469 You know? 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:11.560 So that brings me to the question. 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:16.569 And this is for all of you to weigh in on what is a senior 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:24.750 Senia is a government tool that they came up with for political reasons, for funding. 00:03:25.860 --> 00:03:31.979 So funding for programming for youth goes up until age 29. 00:03:32.430 --> 00:03:46.680 Funding for seniors goes from 55 plus, but also the senior, when you turn 65, you can start officially getting your CPP and OAS. 00:03:47.580 --> 00:03:53.819 Now, some people don't like the term senior because it implies being old. 00:03:54.750 --> 00:03:56.789 I don't feel 67. 00:03:57.569 --> 00:04:09.960 I feel just the spy as you know, anybody else I'm maybe moving a little bit more slowly because I use a cane, but I don't feel that itch. 00:04:10.349 --> 00:04:16.680 And even within seniors communities, they don't like that with senior. 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:30.779 Some people want to have all of that adults, but for the youth elders project, we use the term elder based on lived experience and wisdom. 00:04:32.009 --> 00:04:36.389 And that also comes from African and indigenous communities. 00:04:37.170 --> 00:04:39.689 And I was deemed like Roma. 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:47.850 I was deemed to be an elder by my two spirit elders when I turned 60. 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:54.360 So I use elder more than I use Sr, depending on where I am. 00:04:54.810 --> 00:04:55.170 Debbie, 00:04:55.709 --> 00:04:57.959 Do you identify as a senior? 00:04:58.410 --> 00:05:02.970 No, I don't identify as a senior, which is interesting, but I do. 00:05:03.060 --> 00:05:05.970 I claimed the term elder very proudly. 00:05:06.870 --> 00:05:10.769 Um, I remember about four or five, five or six years ago. 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:15.689 Um, when our young worries that, um, black lives matter decided that they were going to call us elders. 00:05:15.690 --> 00:05:17.310 And we said, no, no, no, call us OGs. 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:26.519 I actually probably claim the term elder it's just for me in my head elder and age aren't necessarily don't go necessarily together. 00:05:27.029 --> 00:05:29.639 Um, but I've always looked forward to getting older. 00:05:29.641 --> 00:05:35.160 And it's interesting when I turned it didn't by age, it didn't hit me until I turned 55. 00:05:35.819 --> 00:05:42.389 Um, I don't know why 55, but at 55, I remember that whole week before my birthday thinking, oh my God, I'm 55. 00:05:42.391 --> 00:05:49.079 And for the first time really seriously thought about I've lived more than more, more years than I have to live. 00:05:49.709 --> 00:05:55.500 And for a moment that that stopped me and made me really think about what it means to be my age. 00:05:55.500 --> 00:05:55.740 Right. 00:05:56.189 --> 00:05:56.939 So I claimed it. 00:05:56.940 --> 00:05:59.600 I, my big womanness, my big draws. 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:01.519 Woman-ness what about you 00:06:04.870 --> 00:06:23.470 According to, you know, Canada's legal age, um, or the legal definition of, of a senior they say is, you know, when you're, when you want 65 years or older for me personally, I guess my definition comes from my maybe Christian upbringing. 00:06:23.769 --> 00:06:28.089 So I've always heard of and read about, you know, in the Bible three scores and 10. 00:06:28.540 --> 00:06:39.339 So, so I believe that when someone reaches, you know, 70 years of age or older, then they would be bonafide is senior or, you know, they have been retired. 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:46.209 Um, so with both definitions, I do not consider myself a senior. 00:06:47.230 --> 00:06:50.470 Um, neither do I consider myself an elder, to be honest with you. 00:06:51.310 --> 00:06:56.439 Um, I consider myself still young, but I, I do see myself as being mature. 00:06:56.829 --> 00:06:58.240 I like the word mature. 00:06:58.509 --> 00:07:02.620 I do believe also that I am gaining more wisdom. 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:07.629 So I will go with, you know, being someone who is mature, experienced and wise. 00:07:07.990 --> 00:07:18.579 And I think when I, when I gather more years and gather more wisdom than I can, I will claim the, the, the definition or the title of a senior or an editor. 00:07:19.810 --> 00:07:39.370 What about you, you know, um, Leslie cam for the last found out last year, my actual age, and I won't say, and she is been dragging me, dragging me, um, too, you got to get involved with the other project. 00:07:39.370 --> 00:07:44.110 And last year I did something with, uh, buddies and the youth at the library. 00:07:44.529 --> 00:07:48.129 You know, I don't feel like an elder. 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:58.000 Um, I consider myself a silver Fox before I'm still young at heart, uh, the Gray's happening, but I'm still hot. 00:07:58.029 --> 00:08:07.600 I still, you know, like to, when I go out, look good, feel good about myself, you know, stay in touch with what is going on. 00:08:07.810 --> 00:08:18.910 It is a struggle because, um, we live in a society that there's this dichotomy of we respect age, but we don't respect age. 00:08:19.540 --> 00:08:38.409 Um, so, you know, I struggle and walk that line myself around, you know, getting older, um, you know, losing autonomy and autonomy is something that I don't want to lose because I understand and have, you know, knowledge around. 00:08:38.410 --> 00:08:40.690 What does that mean at the end of the day? 00:08:41.649 --> 00:08:45.370 So agent is, it's an interesting topic. 00:08:45.669 --> 00:08:50.500 Don't want it, but it's dragging me there whether or not I agree with it. 00:08:51.340 --> 00:08:51.580 Yeah. 00:08:51.809 --> 00:08:51.809 But 00:08:51.809 --> 00:08:53.200 I think it's interesting what you said. 00:08:53.649 --> 00:09:05.190 Um, Carol, in terms of, um, uh, we respect or respect, um, age, and yet we, we, we make it, we make people of a particular age invisible, right? 00:09:06.090 --> 00:09:08.460 Like they, they lose their individuality. 00:09:09.379 --> 00:09:19.220 It also reminds me of that, of, of the fact that, um, in African societies, uh, the notion of aging, an eldership is it's forever. 00:09:19.789 --> 00:09:23.659 And on my visit, there are some, two to three years ago. 00:09:24.860 --> 00:09:30.200 Um, I was just amazed at how people literally used to, you know, like bow down before me. 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:39.590 And because I was seen as an elder, you know, you know, and you could do nothing you from the time you get all the car to good, I was there teaching. 00:09:39.950 --> 00:09:47.299 And from the moment you get on the vehicle, they run to you to take your bag and everything, whole everything for you, we'll take your load on for you. 00:09:47.899 --> 00:09:54.710 And, and that is because they understand and, uh, and respect the notion of, of, of being an elder. 00:09:55.159 --> 00:09:57.740 I don't think that we handle the north American society. 00:09:57.740 --> 00:10:02.840 And even, I would probably just say to that, some of us are in the Caribbean, we are losing it. 00:10:03.379 --> 00:10:04.789 I want to pick up on that. 00:10:05.210 --> 00:10:12.649 There is a history of black women being viewed as mammies, no matter how old we were. 00:10:13.009 --> 00:10:20.870 And our beauty was never acknowledged as something worthwhile to be held on a pedestal. 00:10:21.139 --> 00:10:30.409 So I think, um, and us being reluctant to be dragged into the ring of age, Bravo, Bravo, good for us. 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:39.080 I watch, you know, black women pretending to be older than they are due to systemic issues, just to gain respect. 00:10:39.379 --> 00:10:47.419 You know, it's sort of like it it's, um, it's hard when we've had to live with such a strong history of oppression. 00:10:47.870 --> 00:10:57.320 And now being in an age where, you know, feminism, black feminism have as allowed us this liberation to be who we are. 00:10:57.830 --> 00:11:00.559 But I think it's also about what I was talking about, right. 00:11:00.561 --> 00:11:04.789 Where women black women, recognizing that after a certain age, they get erased. 00:11:05.179 --> 00:11:05.179 Anyway. 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:09.860 So as you said, we are either highly overly sexualized or, or we the helper. 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:12.019 Um, and, and there's nothing in between. 00:11:12.020 --> 00:11:14.929 And, and, and the sense of I'm black woman, woman. 00:11:15.830 --> 00:11:22.370 Um, isn't, isn't often seen, I, I smiled when you asked that question because my mother never tells anyone her age. 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:26.480 My mother likes when people tell her, um, oh, is that Debbie, his older sister. 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:29.870 And she prints and tells everybody that everybody thinks I'm Debbie sister, you know? 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:36.590 Um, and she does, she looks like she looks at fishes, my sister, and I won't say our age because she'll kill me, but I keep swearing. 00:11:36.591 --> 00:11:43.039 But mom, don't, you want to tell people, all of you, because you are so fabulously looking and for her, it's like, no, it is. 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:51.529 It's about, I want people to see me in the way I present in the way I am and not have age define, um, the expectations of me. 00:11:51.769 --> 00:11:56.740 And as he probably doesn't use the same that we're using, but it comes from a sense of that, right. 00:11:56.740 --> 00:12:02.500 Of wanting to be seen, to be relevant and agency to continue to contribute 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:18.070 For me, I, as an artist, as an actor, um, auditioning, um, so many of the black bodies actors tend to hide their age. 00:12:18.129 --> 00:12:29.559 It's only between them and the agent, because if you are presenting as, as someone in your forties and you're nearly 60, okay. 00:12:30.610 --> 00:12:35.980 It becomes dishonest because it means that you've taken work from somebody who's genuinely in that age group. 00:12:36.070 --> 00:12:48.100 Like I go out for the show for parts in my forties, you know, I'm long past forties, nearly, and then fifties, but I can still go out and do it and could still get the role, you know? 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:55.779 So one of the reasons why, you know, we hide our age is, is, is basically, is to be able to get parts. 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:56.279 And 00:12:56.350 --> 00:13:00.730 We see that as well with women who migrate at an older age as well, right. 00:13:00.730 --> 00:13:06.850 In order to be able to compete in the labor market, um, they change your age or they don't disclose 00:13:06.850 --> 00:13:09.990 Their age, even when you raised in the society. 00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:19.470 Um, you know, I've lived in Canada all my life since I was a small child and I won't disclose my age on the job. 00:13:20.370 --> 00:13:37.679 Um, it, you know, you only know my age once I received an offer and you get my income tax information because it is, we get discriminated against for age women, women primarily are discriminated against based upon age. 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:43.139 So it is another factor that black women are working with. 00:13:43.169 --> 00:13:46.259 It's not only race, but we're also working with age. 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:53.220 And then if you add sexual orientation on top of that, or gender identity issues on disability. 00:13:53.221 --> 00:13:53.610 Right? 00:13:53.700 --> 00:13:54.539 Exactly. 00:13:55.019 --> 00:14:00.539 So does this, hole's a true as well for, for the black man and Canada. 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:10.080 So, you know, so where women are black women are concerned in particular, I'm going to go to the black men, of course, but it is one of the vestiges of slavery. 00:14:10.081 --> 00:14:23.940 And post-colonialism where the black woman had to work very, very hard, just like the man, you know, and the white woman, white colonial mistress would often compete against the black woman to print, to denigrate the black woman. 00:14:24.269 --> 00:14:33.240 So we are single vestiges of post-colonialism where a lot of black women, even today are very reluctant to see their age. 00:14:33.330 --> 00:14:36.269 They're very reluctant because they're afraid of being stigmatized. 00:14:36.570 --> 00:14:39.179 And I'm told that they are not desirable. 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:48.000 However, we have seen a lot of black women, you know, meet me in the celebrities because we know of them, you know, where they are 60, 70, and they look fabulous. 00:14:48.269 --> 00:14:49.799 So they're trying to change. 00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:53.450 They're trying to change that paradigm for black men. 00:14:53.750 --> 00:14:54.590 It holds true. 00:14:54.620 --> 00:15:05.450 It holds true, but to a lesser extent, because we continue to live in a male dominant world, politically speaking, we're still basically in a patriarchal society. 00:15:05.870 --> 00:15:17.870 So as long as men hold and dominate, so, so political and economic power, there's, there's less pressure on men to want to stay and look a certain way. 00:15:18.409 --> 00:15:31.730 Transistor look young as opposed to the sentiments that are discharged towards women, which we talk about dichotomy, however, in the gay community or when I go online. 00:15:32.090 --> 00:15:45.769 So dating, dating sites or hookup sites, a lot of men, my age and younger, they do not put their religion because I guess they are in fear of not getting favor or responses from younger men. 00:15:46.629 --> 00:15:47.649 Well desire. 00:15:47.769 --> 00:15:48.070 Yeah. 00:15:48.100 --> 00:15:51.279 And sex and sexual, uh, personhood. 00:15:52.299 --> 00:16:09.370 Um, I feel that once we crossed 54 women as women, we are seen as old and no longer desirable, is that your experience, even though you may be, you know, in a relationship and living with someone, do you, for instance, go at a bar and people hit on you for instance. 00:16:09.909 --> 00:16:11.620 And, and, and again, let me start with myself. 00:16:11.769 --> 00:16:14.860 I remember going home on vacation at one point in time. 00:16:16.029 --> 00:16:28.240 And for nostalgia sake, I decided to go in this particular bar, um, very popular rum shop, so to speak because I love the ambience that you get in these spaces. 00:16:28.779 --> 00:16:41.919 And I know that prior to leaving Trinidad, if I had gone in that same space, when I was in my twenties and thirties, I would have been hit on many times because I went in there as a single, as a, as a single woman. 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:46.120 I mean, I didn't go with a man or there weren't any other company with me. 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:51.309 If you go alone or you just sit down there in a drink, you know, that you will be hit on. 00:16:51.789 --> 00:17:11.289 And I remember going there, um, when I went home on a vacation to the, so that very bar and I sat there for over an hour, uh, no body like mail-outs man, no Patty came to say hi, or would you like to have a drink? 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:12.849 Nothing, nothing. 00:17:13.089 --> 00:17:20.380 And that's when I realized, you know, what it is, you old it's age, you know, you're no longer seen as desirable. 00:17:20.529 --> 00:17:31.269 So I like to hear from, from you, Carol, how you feel about that, you know, I don't know if I'm looking, I guess I'm in a different place, I'm in a relationship and I'm happy. 00:17:31.270 --> 00:17:36.339 And you know, I, you know, my partner makes me feel good about who I am. 00:17:36.339 --> 00:17:38.799 I make my partner feel good about who they are. 00:17:38.980 --> 00:17:40.750 So I don't know if I'm in that place. 00:17:40.750 --> 00:17:48.670 I, however, I don't know if I was single, if I would have a different perspective on the conversation. 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:57.869 And I also realize as a black lesbian woman, that the way I moved to the world, people also think that I'm heterosexual. 00:17:57.871 --> 00:18:00.900 So I do get hit on by white men. 00:18:01.140 --> 00:18:03.509 And it's just because of the way I move through the world. 00:18:04.140 --> 00:18:04.799 Right. 00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:09.420 Um, it felt was a different kind of woman who moves through the world very differently. 00:18:09.421 --> 00:18:11.549 That might be a different conversation. 00:18:12.930 --> 00:18:13.950 What about you, Debbie? 00:18:15.380 --> 00:18:15.950 Interesting. 00:18:16.369 --> 00:18:28.789 Um, th this conversation, um, cause when I, when I first started, when you first raised the question, I had a similar response to Carol to think, well, gap I'm in a relationship and I'm not sure I'd pay attention. 00:18:29.750 --> 00:18:32.390 Um, you know, and these things tend to go over my head anyways. 00:18:32.391 --> 00:18:39.319 But as I was thinking about it, I thought, no, in fact, um, my interaction with black man has become very different. 00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:46.009 So it's not that they don't engage me, but they don't engage me as in a guilt, you know, come here. 00:18:46.150 --> 00:18:56.000 It's, it's much more it's interestingly enough, it's a much more respectful, um, approach approach in terms of, you know, wanting, wanting to engage still fast. 00:18:56.779 --> 00:19:03.440 Um, but, but not the same way as say 10 years ago, I was walking down Sinclair and Dufferin areas and example, right. 00:19:03.890 --> 00:19:05.450 And, and getting called out. 00:19:05.539 --> 00:19:11.059 So there's some guy driving by enough car, but it's what, it's, what I've been saying is a swimming get older. 00:19:11.750 --> 00:19:18.890 Um, they're, they're seen as less desirable and I'm trying to think if that is true, um, in the lesbian world as well. 00:19:18.891 --> 00:19:20.450 And I think, um, yes, it is. 00:19:21.470 --> 00:19:22.069 Especially 00:19:24.289 --> 00:19:27.019 If you walk in with a kid, you know, 00:19:27.380 --> 00:19:30.529 A lot of the culture that we have still as gay folks. 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:35.960 And I think he was a bit different in the eighties and nineties when we had lots of house parties and those kinds of things. 00:19:36.619 --> 00:19:50.359 Um, but as you age out of the bar scene, um, where do you go as an, as an older adults, um, in the community the few times that we go during pride, for example, I remember one night we decided we were determined to go dancing and we thought, okay, we'll go at 10. 00:19:50.361 --> 00:19:50.630 Right? 00:19:50.631 --> 00:19:52.369 So he forced us up to stay up until 10. 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.000 And we got there and somebody said 10, you know, it opens at midnight. 00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:00.859 And so we sat up in this restaurant and had dinner and talked and walked and then came back. 00:20:01.009 --> 00:20:06.529 And when we go out to, when we go out into the front of the place, everybody w they're all younger than my older daughter. 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:09.740 And I thought I cannot, I don't have the energy. 00:20:10.609 --> 00:20:15.349 And they all looked at us as if we were this very strange two women wanting to come into their space. 00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:34.400 It's interesting that you say that Debbie, because I've been going to the lavender parties, well, when they were happening and I, the first one I went to, uh, during pride two years ago, the security person stopped me outside. 00:20:34.401 --> 00:20:36.950 I was, I mean, I was ready to go dancing. 00:20:37.339 --> 00:20:41.720 And the security person stopped me and said, are you going in there? 00:20:41.721 --> 00:20:45.950 Do you see how crowded it is using a cane? 00:20:46.460 --> 00:20:48.400 And I said, yeah, I'm here to dance. 00:20:49.500 --> 00:20:55.089 And that's where I go to the lavender parties and the road parties, because I want to dance. 00:20:55.839 --> 00:21:19.119 But the way they look at you, because you must be out of your mind to be that age coming into our parties and you use a cane, but I wanted to get to Knute because you started talking about earlier, the desirability that older gay men still experience all the women do. 00:21:19.829 --> 00:21:37.650 So, um, you know, the term sugar, that is a term that I, I heard from, I was not from, I was, uh, a little boy and I remember the term sugar daddy, I think originated it's related to older men, um, going with younger women, you know? 00:21:38.250 --> 00:21:41.819 Um, so basically it, it was a transactional relationship. 00:21:42.180 --> 00:21:59.309 I like to call it a symbiotic relationship where, you know, the, the younger, the younger person would receive gifts and, you know, and money and trips and all the exotic trips to exotic places, but not, but now it also exists in the, in the gay world, you know, for men. 00:21:59.990 --> 00:22:10.730 We, no, no, I, I don't see it as, um, I don't see it as a negative quality depends on the, on who's looking on, you know, but I don't see it as something negative. 00:22:11.609 --> 00:22:23.309 Um, I, a lot of guys know, I guess, because I have my, my, my, my silver, my silver beard and stuff, but a lot of guys refer to me as daddy, even though I think I look quite young, you know? 00:22:23.579 --> 00:22:27.180 And, um, I initially I did not like it. 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:30.180 And then I said, you know, what can you own it? 00:22:30.181 --> 00:22:32.099 You're in your fifties on the thing. 00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:33.029 So I own it. 00:22:33.509 --> 00:22:54.960 And, um, I also have recognized that there are these transactional relationships that th the, the, the sugar, that relationship, and some of them have evolved into genuine relationships, one of love and respect and all of that, you know, giving and receiving physical and emotional support and love. 00:22:55.289 --> 00:23:03.930 So I, one of the things we should also be aware of that love language is different for different people. 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:10.049 Some people want to receive gifts that, you know, but if you don't give them certain gifts, you know, then I guess you don't love them. 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:16.200 Some persons want to receive, um, you know, more physical attention, emotional attention. 00:23:16.349 --> 00:23:19.019 So it is a transaction between two people. 00:23:19.109 --> 00:23:22.890 And as long as they both agree with it, I don't have a problem with that. 00:23:23.220 --> 00:23:26.430 You know, there's a new term that's being used and it's Zadie. 00:23:26.670 --> 00:23:30.329 It was this, the term was created by millennials. 00:23:30.829 --> 00:23:32.069 I think we're generation X. 00:23:32.549 --> 00:24:01.099 And so th these millennials find older guys, physically and socially attractive, you know, because these older men, you know, they, they don't act as if they're old, you know, so once you can speak their language or you can go on your, go to club with them, and, you know, you are socially aware of the things that millennials like and do when they see you as a Zadie for women, younger females are not referring to their older counterparts as hot mama. 00:24:01.460 --> 00:24:10.460 And Alice is evidenced in Hollywood for years, but J-Lo has a song titled I'm not your mama where she's, she's dating this young, hot guy. 00:24:10.670 --> 00:24:15.349 And she's saying to him, look, I'm not your mama all day, and they're getting it on. 00:24:15.650 --> 00:24:19.279 So my thing is, it's a mindset, you know, the ages and it's there. 00:24:19.609 --> 00:24:24.740 But on the other hand, you know, there are young people who are going after older men, I'm going up to older women. 00:24:25.099 --> 00:24:29.480 And I think we have to see ourselves as being beautiful. 00:24:29.690 --> 00:24:31.099 It's the confidence and everything. 00:24:31.589 --> 00:24:36.680 And, you know, and just being aware of the culture, being aware of the, of the social value and all those things. 00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:41.960 Because if you, if you come across as not being aware, then you know, that's a turnoff for the millennials. 00:24:42.529 --> 00:24:44.900 And when new, where do I go now to find it? 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:55.980 That's what I was going to say, because we don't have that equivalent for all the women. 00:24:55.980 --> 00:24:57.329 It's not happening. 00:24:57.330 --> 00:25:35.849 It literally is not happening, but I like that you pointed out the difference between a sugar daddy and an intergenerational relationship, because looking at the difference between the two, but also recognizing men have this privilege of still being able to carry on sexually, but women don't seem to have that opportunity, whether it's, um, uh, usually agreeable relationship, or even as Roma was saying, you know, if we even have the opportunity to have that kind of relationship. 00:25:36.660 --> 00:25:42.029 Yeah, me too. 00:25:42.030 --> 00:25:42.900 Let me tell ya. 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:45.900 I don't know if you'll put it up. 00:25:45.930 --> 00:26:00.359 The quest slow dances, those started about, I guess, about five or six years ago, when was an opportunity where you would go into a quest space on or somebody to dance and they would dance with you. 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:05.519 So getting to know people without any strings or pressure attached. 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:12.359 And I found that when I was using my cane, I wasn't being asked to dance. 00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:16.710 When I hit my kin, I was asked to dance. 00:26:17.339 --> 00:26:23.190 And then when people saw me dancing with the cane, Abel, his remarks were made to me. 00:26:24.029 --> 00:26:26.730 So I stopped going to the slow dances. 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:30.630 That's why I started going to lavender and rude. 00:26:31.410 --> 00:26:38.160 But even in those spaces, I don't get the same courtesy as I do in straight spaces. 00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:38.670 I don't. 00:26:38.671 --> 00:26:40.230 Why, why is that? 00:26:40.259 --> 00:26:45.240 Why are we not being courteous, unkind to each other? 00:26:45.269 --> 00:26:52.170 Because as my friend, Andrew Goza says, we're all T a B temporarily. 00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:53.279 Able-bodied 00:26:56.390 --> 00:27:00.829 What was kind of the kind of remarks that were made when they showed that you were with the king 00:27:01.579 --> 00:27:02.000 First woman. 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:13.220 When she saw me using my kid, she said, oh, I didn't know you could dance without a kid, because she had been dancing with me without the kid for a slow song. 00:27:13.221 --> 00:27:16.880 And then when a fast song came on, I needed a kin for balance. 00:27:17.450 --> 00:27:19.039 And she made that remark. 00:27:19.400 --> 00:27:24.319 I know for me, I too have been using a cane because of arthritis in my right knee. 00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:31.880 And I find that they're more courtesies to me in the heterosexual world, so to speak. 00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:49.609 But I do believe that within the community, there is, or most a kind of a, not so much of a stigma, but again, there's this notion like you're no longer desirable because you're walking with a cane. 00:27:50.029 --> 00:27:50.599 You know 00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:51.349 What I mean? 00:27:51.470 --> 00:27:56.839 We're hearing from the stories is it's just the hyper sexualization of bodies. 00:27:57.230 --> 00:28:04.069 And, and so if you cannot be seen as a sexual being, then you have no value, which is, um, sad. 00:28:04.490 --> 00:28:05.079 Yes. 00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:05.480 Yes. 00:28:06.170 --> 00:28:09.410 It tells a lot about our mindset as a community. 00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:21.650 I know that this also occurred with younger people who are disabled, who talk about not being viewed as desirable because of their disability. 00:28:22.069 --> 00:28:28.819 It's almost the space that we've created for the beautiful, and which is sad. 00:28:28.820 --> 00:28:40.069 It's a sad state of affairs about our psychological mindset, um, around how we view the world and, you know, our beauties, our imperfections, 00:28:40.549 --> 00:28:43.130 That's so true, both, uh, kaolin. 00:28:43.190 --> 00:28:54.950 And, um, Debbie, what you said, if you are younger, or if you're older and you're using a mobility device and a quest space, you're not seen as a sexual being. 00:28:55.609 --> 00:29:12.769 And I rarely feel for younger women who are using mobility devices, because I see them at lavender and at the rude parties they're coming out, which is great, but the clear to see, and the kindness isn't there, which is really sad. 00:29:13.210 --> 00:29:13.490 So 00:29:13.490 --> 00:29:25.099 It seems to be that there is an absence of feminism I'm trying, I'm I use just sinking having like rose-tinted glasses or when I was younger or, um, did I, is it true that I think we had a sense of inclusion. 00:29:25.460 --> 00:29:25.460 Gender 00:29:25.549 --> 00:29:33.140 Is almost a level of invisibility is like, you're not there in the men's community as well. 00:29:34.849 --> 00:29:36.650 I've not done those in a long time. 00:29:41.650 --> 00:29:51.910 Um, you know, living with a disability, but I mean, but I've seen it, I've seen it years ago, where even though they may be in the space, you know, it's not an inclusive space. 00:29:52.210 --> 00:30:07.089 I do have two friends that they're in a wheelchair and they have, um, told me on numerous occasions that people with disabilities do have a sexual drive and people don't think that they are capable of, of that. 00:30:07.150 --> 00:30:07.329 Yeah. 00:30:07.740 --> 00:30:15.000 Know, you get desexualized sexualized, which is interesting because on the other hand, women with disabilities that have the highest, one of the highest levels of sexual abuse. 00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:18.599 So it's, it's, it's, it's having to navigate both of those things. 00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:25.650 Don't you all find that within the community, it is, it is all about sex. 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:33.569 It seems like, you know, everything has to do with our sexual abilities or the sexual desires 00:30:34.109 --> 00:30:34.440 Roma. 00:30:34.441 --> 00:30:35.549 I'm going to jump in here. 00:30:35.609 --> 00:30:38.490 There may be a lot of blow back from this, but I'm going to say it. 00:30:38.670 --> 00:30:54.990 It just seems that way partially, because when we look at gay pride events and you know, what the media portrays is men and women presenting themselves in very sexual ways. 00:30:55.410 --> 00:31:04.589 You know, I know some people may not like it, but when I look at the Toronto gay product keeps, I keep asking myself, okay, but what are the products? 00:31:04.609 --> 00:31:06.359 I mean, I want to feel proud. 00:31:06.740 --> 00:31:17.339 And when I see persons, women, and men in the streets, I am not very proud of that because it comes across that we're just selling sex and we're just sexual beings. 00:31:17.549 --> 00:31:23.849 And there's much more to us than just a beautiful body, you know, big boobs, big. 00:31:24.930 --> 00:31:28.740 There's much more to me than just my sexuality. 00:31:29.130 --> 00:31:29.279 That's 00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:31.799 True about being sex positive. 00:31:32.069 --> 00:31:36.750 The liberation movement, um, started around once, um, right. 00:31:36.750 --> 00:31:41.579 To have sex with wherever one feels like, and to be seen as, um, sexual beings. 00:31:41.580 --> 00:31:42.000 Right. 00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:47.519 And I think we've moved away from that and away from liberation and more into respectability politics. 00:31:48.029 --> 00:31:48.930 Um, and I, I agree. 00:31:48.931 --> 00:31:56.940 I think the media portrays, um, especially during pride, one type of, um, gay people, right. 00:31:57.099 --> 00:32:02.250 Because I see lots of different people that have pride, but that's not what makes the front page of the, of the Toronto star. 00:32:02.250 --> 00:32:07.019 For example, for me, it's always about, you know, yes, we have to be sex positive. 00:32:07.020 --> 00:32:07.200 Yes. 00:32:07.230 --> 00:32:08.250 It's about liberation. 00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:14.009 I think both general my right about when non-queer people think about as they think sex, right. 00:32:14.010 --> 00:32:16.890 I think people or it's about sex. 00:32:16.891 --> 00:32:18.599 And of course it's not only about sex. 00:32:19.170 --> 00:32:27.539 Um, but at the same time, I don't think we come to that by, by, by, by, um, taking on this whole respectable politics. 00:32:28.019 --> 00:32:54.230 I think that whole, um, idea of the sex, um, politics also plays out around the room that lesbians have to be liberated, like for example, the bath houses where men have always enjoyed that freedom and space and for women to have that liberation, it doesn't really exist. 00:32:54.259 --> 00:33:05.990 There's not a, a space that if a woman is single, that she could go to and connect with someone and just go home, it doesn't exist. 00:33:05.990 --> 00:33:09.410 But there's that liberation that does exist for gay men. 00:33:09.411 --> 00:33:22.430 And there's always been that space for gay men, um, who are out or not out to have those spaces to be liberated, but also to be private at the same time. 00:33:22.940 --> 00:33:23.509 Right. 00:33:23.690 --> 00:33:35.930 So I think that sometimes that's where, um, the power and I do agree with the patriarchal power that exists even in the community, um, plays itself out. 00:33:37.630 --> 00:33:41.170 We have had a very rich discussion. 00:33:41.349 --> 00:33:41.980 Thank you. 00:33:41.980 --> 00:33:42.789 All of you. 00:33:43.059 --> 00:33:45.640 So Roma, you know, 00:33:45.700 --> 00:34:01.480 I, um, I don't know if at the end of this podcast, I am going to, if somebody asks me, what's my age, that I'm going to say it, truthfully Debbie Douglas, Cairo and Kenneth Lawrence. 00:34:01.509 --> 00:34:15.070 Thank you so much for sharing with us, your stance on ageism, reconciling with your seniority, understanding that, Hey, I am mature. 00:34:15.369 --> 00:34:16.750 I have wisdom. 00:34:17.139 --> 00:34:18.070 I'm an elder. 00:34:24.219 --> 00:34:31.000 Thanks for listening to the youth elders podcast, a big thing scores to our sound editing team. 00:34:32.170 --> 00:34:32.889 Denato have fun. 00:34:33.190 --> 00:34:37.539 And em lovers with support from Maddie Bautista, 00:34:38.349 --> 00:34:46.269 The youth elders podcast is produced by buddies and bad times theater and is funded in part by the theaters community and education partner, TD bank.