Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Leslie Lee cam.
Speaker 1: Hello, my name is Ty Sloan
Speaker 2: And this is season two of the youth elders podcast, creating space for identities, histories, and perspectives across generations.
Speaker 1: This season takes a look at personal stories of coming out, navigating identity and finding homes
Speaker 2: While also discussing the impact of institutional spaces and activist movements on the very places we find community.
Speaker 1: This season's episodes are curated and recorded by myself, Tai Sloan, Leslie Lee cam, Naomi Bain, bear Bergman and Roma Spencer.
Speaker 1: Most of our recordings were made in Toronto on the traditional territories of the Anishinaabi, the[inaudible] and the wind deck and treaty territory of the Mississaugas of the car.
Speaker 2: This episode is a round table discussion on aging access and desirability as square people.
Speaker 2: And in particular, a square people of color Roma, Spencer and I co-host.
Speaker 2: And we're joined by three wonderful guests for the conversation, Knute Lawrence, Carol tins, and Debbie Douglas.
Speaker 3: You know, this podcast, I call it as the podcast of reckoning.
Speaker 3: And I say recommend because I am reconciled with my chocolate over the years.
Speaker 3: It's been a while.
Speaker 3: I know Leslie been trying to get me on board and involved with a youth elder projects and stuff.
Speaker 3: And I was like, well, me and 60 years old, I know elder.
Speaker 3: You know, so for, for some years I kept, you know, docking Leslie, because as I said, I don't consider myself a senior or elder.
Speaker 3: Um, and I do thank God for probably the pandemic.
Speaker 3: I mean, everybody will know how senior I am, because I certainly and have the luxury to continuously be putting the color in the hair to hide the grids.
Speaker 4: I
Speaker 3: Kind of helped start to really reconcile with it because, you know, I realized that I'm not a youth in the community.
Speaker 3: Um, in, in, especially in the theater community, in the theater world here in Toronto, they are looking to what's me as this, this seniors, this elder and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: And I have no other choice, but to, to, to accept it, I mean, who am I to tell them, hello?
Speaker 3: No, I'm not a senior.
Speaker 3: You can't look towards me as no, no icon, or you can look towards me as no role model.
Speaker 3: I can't do that.
Speaker 3: So my little way of reconciling and saying, you know what?
Speaker 3: I am an elder.
Speaker 3: I'm not quite a, but it's a nice way of reconciling and seeing, you know, even though I'm not quite, I'm not 60 years old years yet I am getting there.
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 3: So that brings me to the question.
Speaker 3: And this is for all of you to weigh in on what is a senior
Speaker 4: Senia is a government tool that they came up with for political reasons, for funding.
Speaker 4: So funding for programming for youth goes up until age 29.
Speaker 4: Funding for seniors goes from 55 plus, but also the senior, when you turn 65, you can start officially getting your CPP and OAS.
Speaker 4: Now, some people don't like the term senior because it implies being old.
Speaker 4: I don't feel 67.
Speaker 4: I feel just the spy as you know, anybody else I'm maybe moving a little bit more slowly because I use a cane, but I don't feel that itch.
Speaker 4: And even within seniors communities, they don't like that with senior.
Speaker 4: Some people want to have all of that adults, but for the youth elders project, we use the term elder based on lived experience and wisdom.
Speaker 4: And that also comes from African and indigenous communities.
Speaker 4: And I was deemed like Roma.
Speaker 4: I was deemed to be an elder by my two spirit elders when I turned 60.
Speaker 4: So I use elder more than I use Sr, depending on where I am.
Speaker 4: Debbie,
Speaker 3: Do you identify as a senior?
Speaker 5: No, I don't identify as a senior, which is interesting, but I do.
Speaker 5: I claimed the term elder very proudly.
Speaker 5: Um, I remember about four or five, five or six years ago.
Speaker 5: Um, when our young worries that, um, black lives matter decided that they were going to call us elders.
Speaker 5: And we said, no, no, no, call us OGs.
Speaker 5: I actually probably claim the term elder it's just for me in my head elder and age aren't necessarily don't go necessarily together.
Speaker 5: Um, but I've always looked forward to getting older.
Speaker 5: And it's interesting when I turned it didn't by age, it didn't hit me until I turned 55.
Speaker 5: Um, I don't know why 55, but at 55, I remember that whole week before my birthday thinking, oh my God, I'm 55.
Speaker 5: And for the first time really seriously thought about I've lived more than more, more years than I have to live.
Speaker 5: And for a moment that that stopped me and made me really think about what it means to be my age.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 5: So I claimed it.
Speaker 5: I, my big womanness, my big draws.
Speaker 5: Woman-ness what about you
Speaker 6: According to, you know, Canada's legal age, um, or the legal definition of, of a senior they say is, you know, when you're, when you want 65 years or older for me personally, I guess my definition comes from my maybe Christian upbringing.
Speaker 6: So I've always heard of and read about, you know, in the Bible three scores and 10.
Speaker 6: So, so I believe that when someone reaches, you know, 70 years of age or older, then they would be bonafide is senior or, you know, they have been retired.
Speaker 6: Um, so with both definitions, I do not consider myself a senior.
Speaker 6: Um, neither do I consider myself an elder, to be honest with you.
Speaker 6: Um, I consider myself still young, but I, I do see myself as being mature.
Speaker 6: I like the word mature.
Speaker 6: I do believe also that I am gaining more wisdom.
Speaker 6: So I will go with, you know, being someone who is mature, experienced and wise.
Speaker 6: And I think when I, when I gather more years and gather more wisdom than I can, I will claim the, the, the definition or the title of a senior or an editor.
Speaker 3: What about you, you know, um, Leslie cam for the last found out last year, my actual age, and I won't say, and she is been dragging me, dragging me, um, too, you got to get involved with the other project.
Speaker 3: And last year I did something with, uh, buddies and the youth at the library.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't feel like an elder.
Speaker 3: Um, I consider myself a silver Fox before I'm still young at heart, uh, the Gray's happening, but I'm still hot.
Speaker 3: I still, you know, like to, when I go out, look good, feel good about myself, you know, stay in touch with what is going on.
Speaker 3: It is a struggle because, um, we live in a society that there's this dichotomy of we respect age, but we don't respect age.
Speaker 3: Um, so, you know, I struggle and walk that line myself around, you know, getting older, um, you know, losing autonomy and autonomy is something that I don't want to lose because I understand and have, you know, knowledge around.
Speaker 3: What does that mean at the end of the day?
Speaker 3: So agent is, it's an interesting topic.
Speaker 3: Don't want it, but it's dragging me there whether or not I agree with it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But
Speaker 5: I think it's interesting what you said.
Speaker 5: Um, Carol, in terms of, um, uh, we respect or respect, um, age, and yet we, we, we make it, we make people of a particular age invisible, right?
Speaker 5: Like they, they lose their individuality.
Speaker 3: It also reminds me of that, of, of the fact that, um, in African societies, uh, the notion of aging, an eldership is it's forever.
Speaker 3: And on my visit, there are some, two to three years ago.
Speaker 3: Um, I was just amazed at how people literally used to, you know, like bow down before me.
Speaker 3: And because I was seen as an elder, you know, you know, and you could do nothing you from the time you get all the car to good, I was there teaching.
Speaker 3: And from the moment you get on the vehicle, they run to you to take your bag and everything, whole everything for you, we'll take your load on for you.
Speaker 3: And, and that is because they understand and, uh, and respect the notion of, of, of being an elder.
Speaker 3: I don't think that we handle the north American society.
Speaker 3: And even, I would probably just say to that, some of us are in the Caribbean, we are losing it.
Speaker 3: I want to pick up on that.
Speaker 3: There is a history of black women being viewed as mammies, no matter how old we were.
Speaker 3: And our beauty was never acknowledged as something worthwhile to be held on a pedestal.
Speaker 3: So I think, um, and us being reluctant to be dragged into the ring of age, Bravo, Bravo, good for us.
Speaker 3: I watch, you know, black women pretending to be older than they are due to systemic issues, just to gain respect.
Speaker 3: You know, it's sort of like it it's, um, it's hard when we've had to live with such a strong history of oppression.
Speaker 3: And now being in an age where, you know, feminism, black feminism have as allowed us this liberation to be who we are.
Speaker 5: But I think it's also about what I was talking about, right.
Speaker 5: Where women black women, recognizing that after a certain age, they get erased.
Speaker 5: Anyway.
Speaker 5: So as you said, we are either highly overly sexualized or, or we the helper.
Speaker 5: Um, and, and there's nothing in between.
Speaker 5: And, and, and the sense of I'm black woman, woman.
Speaker 5: Um, isn't, isn't often seen, I, I smiled when you asked that question because my mother never tells anyone her age.
Speaker 5: My mother likes when people tell her, um, oh, is that Debbie, his older sister.
Speaker 5: And she prints and tells everybody that everybody thinks I'm Debbie sister, you know?
Speaker 5: Um, and she does, she looks like she looks at fishes, my sister, and I won't say our age because she'll kill me, but I keep swearing.
Speaker 5: But mom, don't, you want to tell people, all of you, because you are so fabulously looking and for her, it's like, no, it is.
Speaker 5: It's about, I want people to see me in the way I present in the way I am and not have age define, um, the expectations of me.
Speaker 5: And as he probably doesn't use the same that we're using, but it comes from a sense of that, right.
Speaker 5: Of wanting to be seen, to be relevant and agency to continue to contribute
Speaker 3: For me, I, as an artist, as an actor, um, auditioning, um, so many of the black bodies actors tend to hide their age.
Speaker 3: It's only between them and the agent, because if you are presenting as, as someone in your forties and you're nearly 60, okay.
Speaker 3: It becomes dishonest because it means that you've taken work from somebody who's genuinely in that age group.
Speaker 3: Like I go out for the show for parts in my forties, you know, I'm long past forties, nearly, and then fifties, but I can still go out and do it and could still get the role, you know?
Speaker 3: So one of the reasons why, you know, we hide our age is, is, is basically, is to be able to get parts.
Speaker 3: And
Speaker 5: We see that as well with women who migrate at an older age as well, right.
Speaker 5: In order to be able to compete in the labor market, um, they change your age or they don't disclose
Speaker 3: Their age, even when you raised in the society.
Speaker 3: Um, you know, I've lived in Canada all my life since I was a small child and I won't disclose my age on the job.
Speaker 3: Um, it, you know, you only know my age once I received an offer and you get my income tax information because it is, we get discriminated against for age women, women primarily are discriminated against based upon age.
Speaker 3: So it is another factor that black women are working with.
Speaker 3: It's not only race, but we're also working with age.
Speaker 3: And then if you add sexual orientation on top of that, or gender identity issues on disability.
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 3: Exactly.
Speaker 3: So does this, hole's a true as well for, for the black man and Canada.
Speaker 6: So, you know, so where women are black women are concerned in particular, I'm going to go to the black men, of course, but it is one of the vestiges of slavery.
Speaker 6: And post-colonialism where the black woman had to work very, very hard, just like the man, you know, and the white woman, white colonial mistress would often compete against the black woman to print, to denigrate the black woman.
Speaker 6: So we are single vestiges of post-colonialism where a lot of black women, even today are very reluctant to see their age.
Speaker 6: They're very reluctant because they're afraid of being stigmatized.
Speaker 6: And I'm told that they are not desirable.
Speaker 6: However, we have seen a lot of black women, you know, meet me in the celebrities because we know of them, you know, where they are 60, 70, and they look fabulous.
Speaker 6: So they're trying to change.
Speaker 6: They're trying to change that paradigm for black men.
Speaker 6: It holds true.
Speaker 6: It holds true, but to a lesser extent, because we continue to live in a male dominant world, politically speaking, we're still basically in a patriarchal society.
Speaker 6: So as long as men hold and dominate, so, so political and economic power, there's, there's less pressure on men to want to stay and look a certain way.
Speaker 6: Transistor look young as opposed to the sentiments that are discharged towards women, which we talk about dichotomy, however, in the gay community or when I go online.
Speaker 6: So dating, dating sites or hookup sites, a lot of men, my age and younger, they do not put their religion because I guess they are in fear of not getting favor or responses from younger men.
Speaker 3: Well desire.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And sex and sexual, uh, personhood.
Speaker 3: Um, I feel that once we crossed 54 women as women, we are seen as old and no longer desirable, is that your experience, even though you may be, you know, in a relationship and living with someone, do you, for instance, go at a bar and people hit on you for instance.
Speaker 3: And, and, and again, let me start with myself.
Speaker 3: I remember going home on vacation at one point in time.
Speaker 3: And for nostalgia sake, I decided to go in this particular bar, um, very popular rum shop, so to speak because I love the ambience that you get in these spaces.
Speaker 3: And I know that prior to leaving Trinidad, if I had gone in that same space, when I was in my twenties and thirties, I would have been hit on many times because I went in there as a single, as a, as a single woman.
Speaker 3: I mean, I didn't go with a man or there weren't any other company with me.
Speaker 3: If you go alone or you just sit down there in a drink, you know, that you will be hit on.
Speaker 3: And I remember going there, um, when I went home on a vacation to the, so that very bar and I sat there for over an hour, uh, no body like mail-outs man, no Patty came to say hi, or would you like to have a drink?
Speaker 3: Nothing, nothing.
Speaker 3: And that's when I realized, you know, what it is, you old it's age, you know, you're no longer seen as desirable.
Speaker 3: So I like to hear from, from you, Carol, how you feel about that, you know, I don't know if I'm looking, I guess I'm in a different place, I'm in a relationship and I'm happy.
Speaker 3: And you know, I, you know, my partner makes me feel good about who I am.
Speaker 3: I make my partner feel good about who they are.
Speaker 3: So I don't know if I'm in that place.
Speaker 3: I, however, I don't know if I was single, if I would have a different perspective on the conversation.
Speaker 3: And I also realize as a black lesbian woman, that the way I moved to the world, people also think that I'm heterosexual.
Speaker 3: So I do get hit on by white men.
Speaker 3: And it's just because of the way I move through the world.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 3: Um, it felt was a different kind of woman who moves through the world very differently.
Speaker 3: That might be a different conversation.
Speaker 3: What about you, Debbie?
Speaker 5: Interesting.
Speaker 5: Um, th this conversation, um, cause when I, when I first started, when you first raised the question, I had a similar response to Carol to think, well, gap I'm in a relationship and I'm not sure I'd pay attention.
Speaker 5: Um, you know, and these things tend to go over my head anyways.
Speaker 5: But as I was thinking about it, I thought, no, in fact, um, my interaction with black man has become very different.
Speaker 5: So it's not that they don't engage me, but they don't engage me as in a guilt, you know, come here.
Speaker 5: It's, it's much more it's interestingly enough, it's a much more respectful, um, approach approach in terms of, you know, wanting, wanting to engage still fast.
Speaker 5: Um, but, but not the same way as say 10 years ago, I was walking down Sinclair and Dufferin areas and example, right.
Speaker 5: And, and getting called out.
Speaker 5: So there's some guy driving by enough car, but it's what, it's, what I've been saying is a swimming get older.
Speaker 5: Um, they're, they're seen as less desirable and I'm trying to think if that is true, um, in the lesbian world as well.
Speaker 5: And I think, um, yes, it is.
Speaker 5: Especially
Speaker 3: If you walk in with a kid, you know,
Speaker 5: A lot of the culture that we have still as gay folks.
Speaker 5: And I think he was a bit different in the eighties and nineties when we had lots of house parties and those kinds of things.
Speaker 5: Um, but as you age out of the bar scene, um, where do you go as an, as an older adults, um, in the community the few times that we go during pride, for example, I remember one night we decided we were determined to go dancing and we thought, okay, we'll go at 10.
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 5: So he forced us up to stay up until 10.
Speaker 5: And we got there and somebody said 10, you know, it opens at midnight.
Speaker 5: And so we sat up in this restaurant and had dinner and talked and walked and then came back.
Speaker 5: And when we go out to, when we go out into the front of the place, everybody w they're all younger than my older daughter.
Speaker 5: And I thought I cannot, I don't have the energy.
Speaker 5: And they all looked at us as if we were this very strange two women wanting to come into their space.
Speaker 4: It's interesting that you say that Debbie, because I've been going to the lavender parties, well, when they were happening and I, the first one I went to, uh, during pride two years ago, the security person stopped me outside.
Speaker 4: I was, I mean, I was ready to go dancing.
Speaker 4: And the security person stopped me and said, are you going in there?
Speaker 4: Do you see how crowded it is using a cane?
Speaker 4: And I said, yeah, I'm here to dance.
Speaker 4: And that's where I go to the lavender parties and the road parties, because I want to dance.
Speaker 4: But the way they look at you, because you must be out of your mind to be that age coming into our parties and you use a cane, but I wanted to get to Knute because you started talking about earlier, the desirability that older gay men still experience all the women do.
Speaker 6: So, um, you know, the term sugar, that is a term that I, I heard from, I was not from, I was, uh, a little boy and I remember the term sugar daddy, I think originated it's related to older men, um, going with younger women, you know?
Speaker 6: Um, so basically it, it was a transactional relationship.
Speaker 6: I like to call it a symbiotic relationship where, you know, the, the younger, the younger person would receive gifts and, you know, and money and trips and all the exotic trips to exotic places, but not, but now it also exists in the, in the gay world, you know, for men.
Speaker 6: We, no, no, I, I don't see it as, um, I don't see it as a negative quality depends on the, on who's looking on, you know, but I don't see it as something negative.
Speaker 6: Um, I, a lot of guys know, I guess, because I have my, my, my, my silver, my silver beard and stuff, but a lot of guys refer to me as daddy, even though I think I look quite young, you know?
Speaker 6: And, um, I initially I did not like it.
Speaker 6: And then I said, you know, what can you own it?
Speaker 6: You're in your fifties on the thing.
Speaker 6: So I own it.
Speaker 6: And, um, I also have recognized that there are these transactional relationships that th the, the, the sugar, that relationship, and some of them have evolved into genuine relationships, one of love and respect and all of that, you know, giving and receiving physical and emotional support and love.
Speaker 6: So I, one of the things we should also be aware of that love language is different for different people.
Speaker 6: Some people want to receive gifts that, you know, but if you don't give them certain gifts, you know, then I guess you don't love them.
Speaker 6: Some persons want to receive, um, you know, more physical attention, emotional attention.
Speaker 6: So it is a transaction between two people.
Speaker 6: And as long as they both agree with it, I don't have a problem with that.
Speaker 6: You know, there's a new term that's being used and it's Zadie.
Speaker 6: It was this, the term was created by millennials.
Speaker 6: I think we're generation X.
Speaker 6: And so th these millennials find older guys, physically and socially attractive, you know, because these older men, you know, they, they don't act as if they're old, you know, so once you can speak their language or you can go on your, go to club with them, and, you know, you are socially aware of the things that millennials like and do when they see you as a Zadie for women, younger females are not referring to their older counterparts as hot mama.
Speaker 6: And Alice is evidenced in Hollywood for years, but J-Lo has a song titled I'm not your mama where she's, she's dating this young, hot guy.
Speaker 6: And she's saying to him, look, I'm not your mama all day, and they're getting it on.
Speaker 6: So my thing is, it's a mindset, you know, the ages and it's there.
Speaker 6: But on the other hand, you know, there are young people who are going after older men, I'm going up to older women.
Speaker 6: And I think we have to see ourselves as being beautiful.
Speaker 6: It's the confidence and everything.
Speaker 6: And, you know, and just being aware of the culture, being aware of the, of the social value and all those things.
Speaker 6: Because if you, if you come across as not being aware, then you know, that's a turnoff for the millennials.
Speaker 3: And when new, where do I go now to find it?
Speaker 4: That's what I was going to say, because we don't have that equivalent for all the women.
Speaker 4: It's not happening.
Speaker 4: It literally is not happening, but I like that you pointed out the difference between a sugar daddy and an intergenerational relationship, because looking at the difference between the two, but also recognizing men have this privilege of still being able to carry on sexually, but women don't seem to have that opportunity, whether it's, um, uh, usually agreeable relationship, or even as Roma was saying, you know, if we even have the opportunity to have that kind of relationship.
Speaker 4: Yeah, me too.
Speaker 4: Let me tell ya.
Speaker 4: I don't know if you'll put it up.
Speaker 4: The quest slow dances, those started about, I guess, about five or six years ago, when was an opportunity where you would go into a quest space on or somebody to dance and they would dance with you.
Speaker 4: So getting to know people without any strings or pressure attached.
Speaker 4: And I found that when I was using my cane, I wasn't being asked to dance.
Speaker 4: When I hit my kin, I was asked to dance.
Speaker 4: And then when people saw me dancing with the cane, Abel, his remarks were made to me.
Speaker 4: So I stopped going to the slow dances.
Speaker 4: That's why I started going to lavender and rude.
Speaker 4: But even in those spaces, I don't get the same courtesy as I do in straight spaces.
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 4: Why, why is that?
Speaker 4: Why are we not being courteous, unkind to each other?
Speaker 4: Because as my friend, Andrew Goza says, we're all T a B temporarily.
Speaker 4: Able-bodied
Speaker 3: What was kind of the kind of remarks that were made when they showed that you were with the king
Speaker 4: First woman.
Speaker 4: When she saw me using my kid, she said, oh, I didn't know you could dance without a kid, because she had been dancing with me without the kid for a slow song.
Speaker 4: And then when a fast song came on, I needed a kin for balance.
Speaker 4: And she made that remark.
Speaker 3: I know for me, I too have been using a cane because of arthritis in my right knee.
Speaker 3: And I find that they're more courtesies to me in the heterosexual world, so to speak.
Speaker 3: But I do believe that within the community, there is, or most a kind of a, not so much of a stigma, but again, there's this notion like you're no longer desirable because you're walking with a cane.
Speaker 3: You know
Speaker 5: What I mean?
Speaker 5: We're hearing from the stories is it's just the hyper sexualization of bodies.
Speaker 5: And, and so if you cannot be seen as a sexual being, then you have no value, which is, um, sad.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 3: It tells a lot about our mindset as a community.
Speaker 3: I know that this also occurred with younger people who are disabled, who talk about not being viewed as desirable because of their disability.
Speaker 3: It's almost the space that we've created for the beautiful, and which is sad.
Speaker 3: It's a sad state of affairs about our psychological mindset, um, around how we view the world and, you know, our beauties, our imperfections,
Speaker 4: That's so true, both, uh, kaolin.
Speaker 4: And, um, Debbie, what you said, if you are younger, or if you're older and you're using a mobility device and a quest space, you're not seen as a sexual being.
Speaker 4: And I rarely feel for younger women who are using mobility devices, because I see them at lavender and at the rude parties they're coming out, which is great, but the clear to see, and the kindness isn't there, which is really sad.
Speaker 4: So
Speaker 5: It seems to be that there is an absence of feminism I'm trying, I'm I use just sinking having like rose-tinted glasses or when I was younger or, um, did I, is it true that I think we had a sense of inclusion.
Speaker 5: Gender
Speaker 3: Is almost a level of invisibility is like, you're not there in the men's community as well.
Speaker 6: I've not done those in a long time.
Speaker 6: Um, you know, living with a disability, but I mean, but I've seen it, I've seen it years ago, where even though they may be in the space, you know, it's not an inclusive space.
Speaker 6: I do have two friends that they're in a wheelchair and they have, um, told me on numerous occasions that people with disabilities do have a sexual drive and people don't think that they are capable of, of that.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Know, you get desexualized sexualized, which is interesting because on the other hand, women with disabilities that have the highest, one of the highest levels of sexual abuse.
Speaker 5: So it's, it's, it's, it's having to navigate both of those things.
Speaker 3: Don't you all find that within the community, it is, it is all about sex.
Speaker 3: It seems like, you know, everything has to do with our sexual abilities or the sexual desires
Speaker 6: Roma.
Speaker 6: I'm going to jump in here.
Speaker 6: There may be a lot of blow back from this, but I'm going to say it.
Speaker 6: It just seems that way partially, because when we look at gay pride events and you know, what the media portrays is men and women presenting themselves in very sexual ways.
Speaker 6: You know, I know some people may not like it, but when I look at the Toronto gay product keeps, I keep asking myself, okay, but what are the products?
Speaker 6: I mean, I want to feel proud.
Speaker 6: And when I see persons, women, and men in the streets, I am not very proud of that because it comes across that we're just selling sex and we're just sexual beings.
Speaker 6: And there's much more to us than just a beautiful body, you know, big boobs, big.
Speaker 6: There's much more to me than just my sexuality.
Speaker 6: That's
Speaker 5: True about being sex positive.
Speaker 5: The liberation movement, um, started around once, um, right.
Speaker 5: To have sex with wherever one feels like, and to be seen as, um, sexual beings.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 5: And I think we've moved away from that and away from liberation and more into respectability politics.
Speaker 5: Um, and I, I agree.
Speaker 5: I think the media portrays, um, especially during pride, one type of, um, gay people, right.
Speaker 5: Because I see lots of different people that have pride, but that's not what makes the front page of the, of the Toronto star.
Speaker 5: For example, for me, it's always about, you know, yes, we have to be sex positive.
Speaker 5: Yes.
Speaker 5: It's about liberation.
Speaker 5: I think both general my right about when non-queer people think about as they think sex, right.
Speaker 5: I think people or it's about sex.
Speaker 5: And of course it's not only about sex.
Speaker 5: Um, but at the same time, I don't think we come to that by, by, by, by, um, taking on this whole respectable politics.
Speaker 3: I think that whole, um, idea of the sex, um, politics also plays out around the room that lesbians have to be liberated, like for example, the bath houses where men have always enjoyed that freedom and space and for women to have that liberation, it doesn't really exist.
Speaker 3: There's not a, a space that if a woman is single, that she could go to and connect with someone and just go home, it doesn't exist.
Speaker 3: But there's that liberation that does exist for gay men.
Speaker 3: And there's always been that space for gay men, um, who are out or not out to have those spaces to be liberated, but also to be private at the same time.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 3: So I think that sometimes that's where, um, the power and I do agree with the patriarchal power that exists even in the community, um, plays itself out.
Speaker 4: We have had a very rich discussion.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 4: All of you.
Speaker 4: So Roma, you know,
Speaker 3: I, um, I don't know if at the end of this podcast, I am going to, if somebody asks me, what's my age, that I'm going to say it, truthfully Debbie Douglas, Cairo and Kenneth Lawrence.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for sharing with us, your stance on ageism, reconciling with your seniority, understanding that, Hey, I am mature.
Speaker 3: I have wisdom.
Speaker 3: I'm an elder.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the youth elders podcast, a big thing scores to our sound editing team.
Speaker 2: Denato have fun.
Speaker 2: And em lovers with support from Maddie Bautista,
Speaker 1: The youth elders podcast is produced by buddies and bad times theater and is funded in part by the theaters community and education partner, TD bank.