Michele Lawrence
You're listening to this as yoga therapy. I'm your host, Michele Lawrence. And I've had the opportunity to interview many of those who are making a difference at the intersections of yoga and health. And I'm here to share with you their stories and conversations. Thanks for listening. In today's episode I interviewed Soleil Hepner. Soleil is a certified yoga therapist and educator, a speaker and the former director of the Phoenix Rising School of yoga therapy. Today, she continues on as emeritus faculty with them and also works in a private practice in San Diego, where she offers individuals, couples and group yoga therapy, along with coaching and online sessions, before her career in yoga therapy, so les spent 18 years as a high tech manager, where she experienced chronic pain and stress. And it was the unrelenting physical pain in her body that over time brought her to yoga therapy. The topic for our conversation today is ambivalence. Soleil embraced the power of ambivalence herself when she announced the decision to retire from her position as Program Director with Phoenix Rising, she says that others wanted to know about the next best thing she would move on to, and that there was discomfort around not knowing she embraces this ambivalence or in the between and encourages her clients to do so as well. It's great to have you here today Soleil.

Soleil Hepner
Thanks, Michele. Nice to be here.

Michele Lawrence
So let's start by talking about your introduction to yoga therapy. as I've noted, you had a career in high tech in the 80s and 90s. And were under a lot of stress and experienced chronic pain. How did you come to yoga? And can you recall what it felt like to experience a new state where you were empowered to feel something different?

Soleil Hepner
Well, it's interesting, because I know you recognize the chronic pain. But it wasn't simply the physical pain that was going on in that time. But life in general, for me was in a rather depressed state. So there was kind of this emotional pain. And then I had this sense of what am I doing? Why am I doing it sort of those big questions that we play with as we get older, and now I had my son who was young, and I'm like, where am I and all I was doing was feeding information out into the world being in high tech at that time. So I think it was a combination, there was pain and all over the place for me. And what I noticed was, during that time, it was like, Okay, go fix this pain, you know, go to a doctor, for the chronic, you know, that physical pain go to a therapist for this kind of pain, go to friends for this kind of pain. It wasn't sort of all coming together. And I think 20 years ago, 911 happens 20 plus years now, at that time, similar to the pandemic that we're in now, there's sort of this question as to those bigger questions come out, what am I doing? Why am I doing it? What is this one precious life that I have, and so had been taking yoga. And it was mostly a physical activity at that point. And it was simply nice to use my body again, because prior actually to going into high tech, I was a dancer. And an aerobics instructor way back when go for the burn was the way to go. 

Michele Lawrence
I can see it. So you and I would have been one of your very eager students on that step, then she you know, up and down, up and down.

Soleil Hepner
And constant like I think of what i i made people do to our aerobics classes, and they loved it. I know, but oh, it was terrible. Anyway, so I went from that to sitting in front of the computer, and it just all sort of got mixed up. And so being able to find my body again, as the place where I got to start or restart my life. And then 911 came along and those bigger questions happened. And I was like, I'm done and all the dot coms were laying off at that time. So you know, I had the advantage of being able to go to my boss and say, give me out of here. Like I need severance. I have no idea what I'm going to do. But this isn't it. And it took about nine months after I went through that to find I was sitting in Santa Cruz at Mount Madonna. And I was at a workshop that I didn't like but there were other workshops going on and I sat to have lunch with someone in started talking about this thing where, where it was like the mind and the body and everything sort of came together and within like 30 seconds, I'm like, Oh my God, that's what I'm supposed to do. And it was Phoenix Rising, they were in a level two course at that point. And I thought, Oh, my God, I'm going back to school. No. I called them up, you know, after that workshop, talk to Karen, for any of those who remember Karen, who was probably the teacher to so many of the practitioners out there and signed up for all of it. And that was the beginning of something very different. It never occurred to me, I would be doing this work. And I'm very fortunate.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, well, thanks for sharing that. And I'd also like to highlight the fact that you eventually became the program director at Phoenix Rising you most recently were for these the last five years? Can you reflect on that for us a bit? And perhaps sharing? What are some of the biggest gifts from that time?

Soleil Hepner
Oh, my gosh, so many, I think people, the community, for me is always the biggest gift. Especially having come from the high tech arena where I was typically the only woman around to move into a space that was so feminine. And energy was very different, a little confusing, sometimes. But so supportive, for my growth. And so I became certified in Phoenix Rising in 2002. I started mentoring and teaching the first two levels sometime around 2005 or six and just kind of continued until Program Director in 2015. or so. I think what I love the most is watching people do the same thing that I went through that moment, where they settle in and they go, this is it. This is what I've been waiting for, for my life in a way that I can do my work and affect change at least one body at a time. And that moment when I watched that, aha pause happen is like, that's pure joy that's pure. 

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, what a blessing to have that position. Hmm.

Soleil Hepner
Yeah, to bask in it with everyone, you know?

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, no doubt, like you provided them strong leadership and all the other things that I do as a program director, and, you know, it's it is such a blessing to be in the presence of that what you've described and to bask in it a bit, too. Yeah. So it feels like a good segue to then talk about your retirement from. I mean, we're kind of like fast forwarding for your life, right. This is kind of the topic of our conversation today of it. And so, like you, you announced your retirement, and it stirred up stuff for folks like your students who perhaps were not comfortable with not knowing what you do next. Yeah, say more about that. Like, yeah, reaction, or how did that?

Soleil Hepner
I know it was, it was very interesting. So I wrote this newsletter about kind of that reaction. And even you were really interested in in that word, ambivalence, you know, the, how do we stay in the between, which is something my client has said to me a couple of weeks ago, oh, wow, this is just being in the between. And that's, to me what transition is, you have this ending, and that thing happens, but then you're in this in between, it's a very emotional and open and scary and wonderful place to be in since we started with the story of me transitioning careers into this work, I just kind of got the the hit even, you know, it took nine months between dropping and retiring, in a sense from my career in tech, to coming into this space in yoga therapy. And I love that nine months, it's just this birthing. But in those nine months, it was scary. But it was also this opportunity to open to any possibility. And so I'm weighing the felt sense between fear and faith. You know, I think that was the thing being able to be in the in between. That got me to the point of being able to recognize a moment where I could say yes, so clearly That took a lot of time. And I think it's this time in between that is very difficult for people to stay in to want to stay in because it's uncomfortable.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah. Transitions are hard for children. I think about like, my I have young kids even at my age, and it's always been a thing. Okay, let's see if we can buffer the transition a little bit right, or ease into things a little bit because it can be so wobbly. And as humans, we don't really like uncertainty. I think that's why the pandemic has been one aspect of why the pandemic has been hard. And I think about Pema children wrote a whole book on it, right, comfortable with uncertainty. So yeah, it does stir up things for people. And there's a lot of power in it, too, when you can embrace it, like you say, and find what arises from it. So I'm going to share this quote, because it says more about it, and you shared it in your email newsletter. And it's a quote from the Harvard Business Review, that says that evidence suggests that experiencing emotional ambivalence can make people more creative, receptive to advice and adaptable. On the other hand, promoting cultures of happiness through social pressure, not to experience negative emotions can actually promote rumination and loneliness and reduce well being in people experiencing negative emotional states. So it kind of speaks to the power of when you can be with the ambivalence, right, what can come from it, and, and also how it can be felt, you know, by others, too. Yeah, you want to unpack that a little bit more,

Soleil Hepner
And the thing that I love the most of about my work, and the clients that I work in, or with, is about being with what is actually here. And so when I hear things like and felt them when I was in corporate, you know, I couldn't show my emotions I wasn't allowed to, I worked with men. And I know how debilitating that was, and how it eventually I think showed up in my physical body, as well. So some of that pain was in pushing down things that I wasn't really allowed to speak to, or feel or want or wish or any of those things. So my work feels important about allowing what is and being torn in the state of ambivalence is about being with what is. And then rather than sort of skirting around and pushing things down, I'm moving through. So my work is always about moving through safely with support, if necessary, or whatever is there. It's not that I plow right through, but I get to come up to the edges of the discomfort and hang there, rather than needing to figure anything out. And if I need to pull back, that's part of it to the being torn is, is the movement in and out the breath in that tide trading and opening the window of tolerance as we talk about it within the trauma realm force. I don't know if that made sense.

Michele Lawrence
It does. You know, I guess it would be interesting to sort of here and no is like, what does your practice with that look like? Yeah, and it probably changes all the time, right? As you're present to what is but does that look like a physical practice? Does that look like a breathing practice? Does that look like meditation? Or all of it? Right, depending upon?

Soleil Hepner
Yeah, all of it. And my practice also includes community. So it includes talking with my people, whoever My people are at the moment. It includes dance. For me, I'm my dance partner part still comes through. It includes meditating in my hot tub, rather than any place in particular. But it's moment to moment. Like where am I now? Where am I now? So my practice is kind of constant, without it being as deliberate as it used to be. So I'm a little more fluid and like to follow more of the I don't know if you've ever heard secrets to meditating for women, I think it's called something like that. But just there's more of a fluidity, which I think also comes with my age. I don't think I allowed so much fluidity when I was younger, or myself I was following So many teachers in so many different ways of being. And there's something about retirement was also the recognition of turning 60. And the allowance that kind of comes with not having to fix anything or know anything or do anything or practice anything, but actually be in life. Yeah. Yeah. Right, something feels different. Mm hmm.

Michele Lawrence
And so how do you invite your clients to work with this? You probably, I'm curious about the client that came up with the quote in the between, right, so you're exploring this. And those were your clients words, you want to share more about that, and how you're able to work with that. Yeah, maybe what blessings or gifts came about to the client, or another one that you've witnessed through this work.

Soleil Hepner
I think what I'm, I'm witnessing, both for this client and other clients is, and the way that I work with it, is definitely using the body and playing with the different parts in an embodied way. I don't know what led to their standing, in a sense in the between, but I, I do remember the stance, and the stance, there was movement in it, there was a sway to it. So without needing to figure out oh, I'm moving into a posture, I'm moving out of a posture. I'm just simply here swaying in the breeze. And I say breeze because we were actually in the park, doing a session, which I'm doing for with a few clients who are during COVID. And I'm in San Diego. So so far, that's worked very well. I think there's this swaying, that happens, but and yet there's a connected ness to the ground. So it's kind of like, Oh, I think they talked about sort of being like a bamboo, you know, weed where it's really grounded. Really hard to break. And yet, there's movement. Yeah. And what they find in that well, you know, translate that to life, how do you stay grounded and still sway with the wind as it shows up? So I you say that, and to me in that what I hear is a whole lot of acceptance, a whole lot of compassion, and, and a whole lot of safety and trust.

Michele Lawrence
So I'd like to ask this question of you. And I do at the end of the podcast with each of our guests. And it has to do with just giving more insight into what your personal practice looks like. Because this is such an important thing for us as yoga therapists to put a priority on write so that we can be of service to others. And first having our own practice. So what does your daily practice look like? You've mentioned that, you know, things are evolving. And I think that's natural as we go through life, right. So it might look different now than what it did when you were younger. But what on a day to day basis, give us a little insight into what your practice looks like.

Soleil Hepner
So I pretty much follow kind of the biopsychosocial model for myself. Yeah. And as long as I'm doing something within each of those realms each day, I'm feeling pretty good about it. I'm doing a whole lot more dancing right now. But deliberate dancing, sort of mindful dancing. For me, many mornings, you'll find me doing something called Gaga, Gaga dance, and which comes out of Israel. And thankfully, during the pandemic, I found them and I'm able to move each morning and be guided in movements in a way that is, for me more natural than then the yoga asana postures, and then I let that go, and I move into a meditation of some kind. And again, I don't really worry about where that is, whether I'm laying down or sitting or if it's formal or not, whether I'm in a hot tub or with the cat on my lap. The other part of my practice right now this is going to sound odd, but I think it might be sort of under the guise of a bhakti yoga for me, which is more around the wisdom part. So I have certain things that I am committing myself to read and learn. So as I said earlier, I just came from the social justice summit conference that's going on, and I'm very diligent about keeping my mind active. And so that comes from connecting with aspects that can grow me in that more intellectual way. And the social part is being as deliberate as possible to stay connected with friends, you know, Phoenix Rising people to old friends and all and one of the things that I'm really actually looking forward to is having sitar come up. And I've already figured out who I'm staying with and who my buddies are that are going there. And actually being in person with people assuming and hoping that COVID doesn't take that one away for June this year. So, but I see it as a part of my practice, you know, like, I could have done that online. And that would have been fine. I'm like, No, I have to, like, physically be around people. And I'm just gonna assume that it will be safe enough at that. Yeah.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, that's fabulous. And I and I think it's so important that you touched upon that, right. And we know as yoga therapists and as students of yoga that there is incredible power in the Sangha. Right. And being intentional about it, especially coming after, or on the heels of the pandemic, or on the heels of the pandemic. Yeah, when isolation was a thing and is a thing for a lot of people. So I think that's a great mention to talk about how social connection Sangha is an important part of your practice. Yeah, and all of it. Really enjoy talking with you today. So lay, hopefully, I'll see you in it. sitar I have not committed to going in person doesn't have to do with Sangha. It's more just around scheduling. But I know. Yeah, just like always, right.

Soleil Hepner
Yes. Well, and usually I can't go because I'm doing teaching for Phoenix Rising. So I'm like, Oh, wow, this is the first time I get to go and and it's just me. Yeah, that sounds really

Michele Lawrence
nice. Maybe I can go under another name. Oh. Well, yeah, so enjoyed speaking with you. I'll put some links on our show notes so that folks can read more about you. Thanks a lot.

Soleil Hepner
Thank you. Bye, Michele. Bye bye.

Michele Lawrence
If you'd like to learn more about who we are and what we do, visit us at inner peace yoga therapy.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai