Michele Lawrence
You're listening to this is yoga therapy. I'm your host, Michele Lawrence. And I've had the opportunity to interview many of those who are making a difference at the intersections of yoga and health, and I'm here to share with you their stories and conversations. Thanks for listening. In today's episode, I interviewed Molly Landon Kenny. Molly is a teacher, therapist and writer who has dedicated her life to the collective reclamation and liberation of the human spirit. I love that by the way, Molly has been teaching radically inclusive yoga for over 20 years, she has started countless outreach programs in a variety of settings, including end of life care, trauma, recovery, homeless and transitional shelters and intensive care hospital units. She served on the boards of the IAA whitey that's the International Association of yoga therapists and the yoga service Council. And she's been published multiple times in various yoga oriented journals and popular press. She's a graduate of the living school with Richard Rohr. Molly lives full time at her home in the jungles of Mexico, where she is now. Molly has also been developing something she calls bedside yoga since 2003, and has worked extensively with people at end of life, including assisting and attending at scheduled deaths. We're going to explore this topic a bit on the podcast today. And it's really great to have you here today, Molly. 

Molly Lannon Kenny
Thanks, Michelle. It's great to be here.

Michele Lawrence
So I've heard your name and have known about you for some time now. And we share similar circles and have over the years yet we only met recently. And that was over the phone. And I have to say that I felt an immediate sense of connection and camaraderie with you. And then I looked around your website a bit more in preparation for this interview. And I noticed that you were born and raised in New Jersey, as you said, in a quintessential Irish Catholic family. And I was like, wow, but that's my story, too. So I think that's so funny. And we'll have to talk more about New Jersey and the different branches of our clans together another time hopefully soon. Yeah, and we don't have to get into the nitty gritty of like, what it was like to grow up in New Jersey on the podcast today. But I think it's important to start with how your background, your childhood, your family relations shaped you into who you are today. So can you share with our listeners that aspect of how growing up informs your yoga path? And then how that path led you to creating bedside yoga?

Molly Lannon Kenny
Yeah, sure, I would start just thinking about the family that I grew up in, for sure. Irish Catholic family, which I didn't know like was a thing, I will just want to add that like I always felt sort of the rest of culture. And I didn't understand that before. People were widely talking about different issues of privilege and cultural dominance and that sort of thing. And I definitely felt that sort of like I didn't have a culture of my own until I actually read the writings of a person that I met in Israel on a training. And his writings were all about growing up in New Jersey as an Irish Catholic in an Irish Catholic family. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I do have it. I do have a connection. I do have it. It was like you said, Michelle, it was like this person was like telling my story. And that was such an interesting connection for me to feel like I did sort of belong somewhere. And so I can reflect on what that actually was. And I would say one is that the church that we attended, we were very church going. And again, I wouldn't have known it until later, just super, super liberal. My parents are super liberal Catholics, which we didn't even know that that was a thing together, I guess. And we were always thinking about other people and acting in service and really recognizing that whatever privilege we had was unearned. I think we did know that long before I understood those terms at all. And my parents were also very civically oriented. So the idea of voting and participating being on boards of directors and sort of doing your part was very much part of my formation. I often will say to myself now that like if anyone would have told me in high school that I would have ended up being a person completely dedicating my life to other people, and particularly the most marginalized people, I think I wouldn't have believed it. While I grew up in this really civically and socially minded family I was also you know, you're typically like self involved, insecure teenager who didn't really think I cared that much, personally about other people, even though I knew that, like that was a family value. So I ended up moving out to Seattle when I was like 23 years old, and I got my first job working at an organization that supported develop mentally disabled adults to live in their own homes. And I won't tell the whole story, I'll let you ask me. So I don't say too much. But I guess that's how everything sort of started. So I was doing that. And then in terms of yoga, people always just told me, you should do yoga, because you're so flexible. And I just happened to be at my gym one time and I saw a yoga class. And luckily for me, it happened to be Ashtanga, because I don't think at that age at that time, if it was anything less than that, I would have continued. And so I became this like super yoga enthusiast. And then I would say those two pathways just began to converge and led me to where I am now.

Michele Lawrence
Wow, that's great. Yeah. So you opened up a yoga center in Seattle along the way, you've done so many things, I don't know how much you want to share about maybe some markers or milestones in terms of the yoga profession, or work or yoga therapy work that you have done, that kind of steers you into this direction of bedside yoga, and then how that came about, let's kind of transition into that conversation a bit, if we can.

Molly Lannon Kenny
Sure. So through the housing organization, I ended up in this kind of meandering path and ended up getting a master's in speech language pathology from the University of Washington. And from there, I went to work at group health, and I became a specialist in working with kids with autism. And then usually adults with like traumatic brain injury, and or stroke survivors. And I worked there for a while. And that was a time I was really, really, really super into Ashtanga. And I just realized I no longer wanted to be in that clinical setting in the hospital setting. And so I took a huge leap of faith, which I also always like to say is directly related to my privilege. I know that that didn't happen in a vacuum. But I took this leap of faith and I opened up this yoga center that was intended to be a Therapy Center. And that we were just going to teach yoga like on the side to pay the bills. Because this woman's friend of mine that became my longtime teaching partner and I we both knew the whole Ashtanga system. And that was kind of like a really Michie thing at that time, especially in Seattle. So we started this place sumeria Center for integrated movement therapy, and Ashtanga Yoga. And my partner at the time, was a licensed clinical social worker, as well. And so we were just always trying to think of, like different unique programs that we could add to our yoga center to our Therapy Center. Really, we were both like clinicians, I mean, not like clinicians, we're both clinicians. And so we wanted to bring that aspect. And I had never even heard of yoga therapy. And actually, I was really, really resistant to it once I did hear about it. Yeah, and I would always call it I would say yoga as therapy, because for me and my partner, we both had clinical backgrounds. And at that time, this was before there were any educational standards, it just seemed like any old person could call themselves a yoga therapist. And we really wanted to separate ourselves from that, or distinguish ourselves from that, I guess I should say, we had all these different ideas. And I'm just so grateful and fortunate. And that's how I had so much experience and working with all different kinds of people, because we would just put together either therapy sessions or groups yoga for addiction, yoga, and trauma, yoga and homelessness, yoga, mental illness, like just on and on, and people would show up. And so we started when that was yoga for grief recovery. We call it life after loss. And it was just absolutely profound class and it became my most like my pet project of all of the ones that I was teaching there. And then at some certain point, my partner Stephanie Sisson said to me, Well, if we're going to teach people in dealing with grief, why don't we work with the people who are dying themselves? And I was like, wow, okay. Well, how would we do that? How would we get into that kind of, and so with actually, with one of my interns, one of my students, we went and approached a place in Seattle, that's called the Bailey Ooh, Shea house. It's a satellite, a Virginia Mason hospital there. And it was built in the 1980s, largely to serve people living with and dying from AIDS. It's not technically a hospice, that about 1/3 of the people do die there. So we went and we pitched to the Volunteer Coordinator that we wanted to start this program, and kind of talked about what it would be and I talked about specifically my experience working in hospitals. He said that other yoga people had pitched the idea of working with his population, and he had always turned it down, because it just seemed a little too. Like I don't know what you're doing. And I don't know what your background is. And again, this is a while ago, I mean, they still might say that this was more than 20 years ago. So yeah, he led us in it was sort of a trial and error of how to work work with people and sort of what we were doing. And the program just grew. And we learned more and more. And as we were learning those things, and doing that work, I began to have more friends or acquaintances that would ask me and they'd say, Oh, no, my friends, neighbor is dying, or one time My girlfriend is dying, or my mom is dying, and can you come and help. And I would just say yes to everything. So began to gain a lot of experience in both of those in the hospital setting and then in people's homes. And it again, between that and the grief work really became the thing that I was just more interested in than anything else. It's just it's such tender, work. And then fast forward, I guess, like 17. I don't know the timing 1615 years later, or something like that. My sister who is also my best friend, who is the person I moved to Seattle, to be with was diagnosed with an aggressive cancer. And that started us on a three and a half year journey together, walking her through that process, and then ultimately being with her at the end of her life. And then I always said, like, I really thought that I was good at this work before. But that there was something about being the person who actually was the intimate partner, that gave me an entirely different viewpoint and perspective. And I want to say knowledge on hope that's quite the right word, but understanding, I guess, and so in the beginning, I didn't teach bedside yoga, really, as a thing, it was just something I did. And I would teach volunteers who are coming into the program. And I would teach my interns, my therapy graduates. But it was actually as Aaron was dying, that I started putting on retreats to teach people about how to do this work. And she was so happy that that was happening.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, thanks for sort of laying that out for us in terms of how it came together. And then really, I would say, perhaps crystallized in a different way with the passing of your sister. And it feels to me just based on the story that you shared, and the breadth that you've had of experience in this area. For a while that there's a lot to be learned from you. Like, I feel so appreciative that I am connecting with you around this because I feel like you've got so much to offer. And what I'd love to just kind of get a bit of a picture of or even just sort of an image or a flavor of is like, What is it? What is bedside yoga? What does it look like?

Molly Lannon Kenny
Yeah, so I feel like the best way for me to explain it right now is to, I'm gonna explain it in sort of the way I put together the training. And this isn't meant to like be promoting the training specifically, but my brain can think more about that. So when I moved the training from a retreat to online during the pandemic, in the beginning, I was completely like resistant to that, because I do have a lot to offer. And I love being with people in person. And I just thought like, this is not work that can be taught over the computer over zoom. But I realized this Actually, I'll consider it Oh, like it really lends itself to that, especially for me, because I'm sort of a talker and a storyteller. And doing it online sort of forced me to be a little bit more contained with each session and to develop what I call like these four units. And so I'm just kind of talk about that, like, what does it look like? So the first part is always about letting go of our ego as much as we can. And really not walking into a person's space as like I'm a yoga therapist. I'm a Reiki Master, I'm an AI or Vedic practice, whatever it might be. And I'll actually tell you something funny. The other great thing about zoom is that I felt it's allowed me to have people from all over the world and I had a student from Australia and she had just completed her yoga therapy training and about halfway through the our online training, she said, Alright, I just want to know more than what it is I didn't go to all this whole yoga therapy training just to make people sandwiches. And so we tend to use that as like a joke we'd always say like, it's more than just making people sandwiches are it's a really all it is, is making people's sandwiches I'll fast forward to say that that person did end up telling me that it was one of the best trading see ever tech lest anyone who thinks they're gonna study with me and just learn how to make sandwiches. But I think the idea is like that idea of like letting go and trusting that we're just another human being. We're just another human being on this journey. I really like the metaphor that I give of like, we're like climbing a high dive with someone you're like walking up that ladder with them and you're making sure that they're steady on the ladder, you're walking them all the way to the end, but only they're gonna jump and you're not and what a person needs more than anything, right that then as you lending them sort of your presence, and your courage and your openness and spaciousness and they actually really don't need like your instructions and techniques, techniques. Yeah, exactly. Related to that we spend a lot of time on faith foundations. You mentioned that I graduated from the program with Richard Rohr. Anyway, that's an awesome story, but I won't tell it now. But I ended up going back to talking about Irish Catholic going back to understanding my Catholicism and Christianity that I was brought up with. And especially like I said, it was super progressive and liberal, and starting to really understand how these perennial traditions overlap and map. And as I learn more about that, it deepens my own faith foundations. And so I really encourage all of my students to really lean into their faith and whatever that might be, I have no idea as about what that might be. I mean, I have some ideas, no preferences, and a couple of my students liked the word interiority, like really developing this profound sense of interiority, where I don't need to be anything, and then I can really be there with my presence. So bedside yoga, I'd say is first and foremost, that it's letting go of the idea that we're going to do anything. And then once we let go of the idea that we're going to do anything, then we figure out, well, what can we do? And really, you're working with an entire system. And so it really is everything from making sandwiches and tidying up people's homes and cleaning out their refrigerators, making schedules for people, asking questions about people's readiness, all of that sort of thing. And how do we create environments for people that are blessing and peaceful and beautiful, and sometimes people don't even recognize that their space doesn't look like that until we help them to transform their space. And then we certainly learn a lot, at least in the training that we have this as we come to bedside yoga, and just knowing the terms, what's the executor of a state, what's a trustee, what is the power of attorney, all of that sort of stuff. And then finally, it's only in the last part of the training that we actually get to the quote, unquote, yoga, because by that time, people are really ready for it. And I feel like they can really receive and pass on what they can offer. And so I would say is offering first and foremost, your presence. And at the same time, helping people to do gentle movement, or you know, we think about like when we have the flu, or I mean, I had COVID, and just lying in bed for three weeks, and how your hips her back hurts, and we can actually make people feel a little better, even though they are at the end of their lives, we can still help them to feel way more comfortable in their physical bodies. We do some really basic Thai yoga techniques, particularly just compressions. I'm doing my hand motions, but you can't just like pressing down gently on a person's body just helping energy to move. We can also offer yoga Asana and practices to the people that are around that person. So maybe it's family who has come in from out of town, maybe it's a caregiver that's sitting there all day with their loved one, and they don't want to move or they don't want to leave that we can just also help that person to move their body very gently, just get some energy flowing. So there are lots of things we can do. And I sort of yoga movement realm, but ever since I've been teaching anything that had the word yoga in it, I always remind people that we're talking about the big yoga, we're talking about the larger yoga and I feel like that's really what we offer is we're the person that's just kind of there, we're both there as a presence, kind of hanging back. And at the same time, really proactive, like finding this balance between the two, really following what the family needs.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, it all sounds like yoga to me. And I think it's amazing too, and so needed. I wonder how much you either partner with or learn from, or like you personally have learned from other fields that are similar, whether it be hospice or like this end of life, doula world that sort of coming out now that might be similar or different?

Molly Lannon Kenny
Yeah, absolutely. So besides my own direct experience, or pretty extensive direct experience in those rounds, I'm also First I'll name my students. I have a lot of students that come that are hospice nurses, or even doctors who have worked extensively in end of life. So then they're on the training, and then they definitely teach me a lot. I have not taken one of the Anelka trainings, one of the death doula trainings, so remember that just like yoga therapy was before like death doula, it's not actually a thing. I always tell my students that like just to remember that it's not really a thing yet. It's just like, people are getting to this work. And so we have to keep our minds really open about what that might look like. That said, I have lots of students who have taken the unelma training as well. And I guess what I could say without having taken it, I want to be really honest about that. And what people say is that it's the focus on the spiritual aspect. That is really different. And again, it's not proselytizing in any way. It's not that kind of spirituality. Again, it's this real interiority, it's real development of presence. And also the mystery, the mystery of what it is to be alive and the mystery of what it is to die. And then one thing I can tell anyone who's listening to this, all of my students, if they're on social media, I asked them to join the hospice and end of life care Facebook page. And I'll tell you what, I have learned more from that page probably than from anything else, just reading what people are worried about what people are going through what people are afraid of. Looking at the responses people give, as I always say, to my students, some that you're like, Wow, that is like such a moving response. I wish I would have said that, and others that you're like, Oh, that's not a nice thing to say. So honestly, I learned a lot from that as well. And I guess the other thing I would just say is that, I think part of what I've learned over the past couple of years, especially living in this tiny rural town that I live in, in Mexico is that I've learned really about the broader application of these exact same things that I work now with so many people here in my town that aren't at end of life, but that are really grappling with many of the same not only medical, and physical and kind of existential and spiritual crises, but a sense of loneliness, a sense of kind of fear, wondering what their value is in this world. So I think it's also that like, learning that while I call it bedside yoga, yoga, end of life care, it was really broad application to being with people who are in dark places really difficult places.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, that all makes sense. And it really sounds so needed and so important. And I thank you for doing what you do. So you know, as someone who works frequently with folks at end of life, I kind of would love to hear what that's offered to your life, because it just imagine it has enhanced your life in so many ways.

Molly Lannon Kenny
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'll start with my sister mean, going reverse time, I guess. I have four brothers and two sisters, and my parents. And so sometimes I'll say I named Aaron is one of my primary teachers, not just because she was like my sister that I love, but it was particularly in her death and dying, that she became, you know, my most important teachers, I think what it is given to me is, first of all, a much more profound understanding of grief. So again, I thought I was really good at grief work. And I, you know, I still think I was by now understanding it. So for example, just last Sunday, I guess I had this big grief wave, and I couldn't even get out of bed all day on Sunday, I just cried all day. And we're coming up in two weeks on three years since my sister died. And so I think that's one of the thing is, it's just a much more profound understanding of what it is to lose a sibling, what it is to really grieve how much grief changes us, and changes our lives and our outlook and our perspective and that both the challenges of grief and also the I call it like the secret gifts of grief as well. So it's really enriched my life in that way. It's also helped me to think about just the idea of death and dying and the naturalness of it. And I think probably one of the things also I say a lot that I learned from doing this work is that I can really decouple the idea of death and dying from the sadness that surrounds it. So I'll have some people, for example, not usually my students, but people that I'm talking to that will say, Well, I don't know. I mean, death just happens. It's like, whatever. I mean, we always knew that was gonna happen. And they have this sort of real protective shell where they just want to be like, whatever death. And I always say, Okay, yeah. And yeah, what people go through is real, like the grief and the loss and the fear and all that is so real. And the transformation is so real. So I talk about this decoupling, where even as bedside yoga practitioners, I can say that death is a natural part of life, that there's actually not really anything sad about it. I talk a lot about the idea of just sort of being in the flow, something I learned from ROM das, that things just happen and we can question like, that person was so young, they had so much to offer, like, why did this happen in that way, and those are the kinds of things that I feel like, we can get better at with this work of really being able to say, I just don't know, it just happened, like we're all gonna die, we're all gonna die and we're all gonna lose every single thing that we love. And we can come to terms with that sort of and put it over on one side, and then right next to it attend to the part that's actually really sad. So the parts that are sad, are loss and loss of a future and reorganization. I have a family and missing that particular person. And so this ability to sort of decouple those things I would say is a huge thing that I've learned through this work. Yeah.

Michele Lawrence
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. So if there are yoga teachers and yoga therapists listening right now who want to learn more about bedside yoga and train with you, what are some important pointers they should consider first? And how can they learn more from you? Obviously, we're going to put your website up in the show notes, but just like helping navigate if you're even are like, the right sort of person to do this kind of work, or think about this first, before you jump in with both feet.

Molly Lannon Kenny  
Yeah, thanks. Actually, first, I'm going to say that one thing that we talk about a lot is that people always say to me, I'm sure they say it to you to Michelle, and different work that you do. People say, Oh, you're so strong to do that work. Oh, you're so amazing to do that work. Oh, I could never do that where, and, obviously, you've heard that too. And I think it's really important actually, for us to point out two things is actually no, I'm not any stronger, any more special, any more anything than anyone else. I'm just another human being. And I think that, in a way, when people say that, to us, it's their way of sort of deflecting, that they don't really want to do this work, or they don't feel like they're suited to do that. And so I think that really, I would say to people who are considering should I do this work, it's going to be like a both. And on the one hand, you really have to let go of that idea. Like actually, you're not special, like you're not this like unique, super uncommon type of person that wants to do this, like we need to really sort of normalize this work. And that's what a lot of the movement, the death doula, the death matters, the death Cafe is really about this, normalizing it. So I think there's that piece is letting go of our own sort of specialness. And along with that, what I have found whether I'm training clinicians, or yoga therapists, even my friend with the sandwich, like one has to be able to come to this work, trusting that I am legitimate and valuable just in myself. And then on top of that, I know some things rather than leading with like, I'll come in, because I know these things I'll come in because I know these pranayamas, I'll come in, because I'm going to quote the Bhagavad Gita to you. So really letting go of that piece and coming with this real just clear presence, like I'm just a human being that's willing to do this and interested in doing it. I would also then say, and this is pretty standard, one should not be in their own bereavement process. Obviously, I just said that I had this big grief day, because that's going to be a lifelong process. But I can tell you that in the time that I was caring for Aaron, and right after she died, I would not have been a good candidate for this work. So I think that's really important as well, I'd say bonus points, if you have accompanied someone along the way, even if you did it just like I don't wanna say just but if it was like a family member, and you were there, because you were there, you weren't doing anything, per se, but you've been on this journey before. Yeah, that is really helpful. And it's actually a really great way to process it. So this might sound like the opposite. It's a really good way to process and integrate your own grief as well. Once you've done that, and then you can help someone else through it. Yeah, I would say those are the main things and also just, again, a real readiness to be present, that you're just there. You don't need like accolades for having done anything, it's not a sense of like, every time you leave, you're like great, I accomplished that thing, that you really feel good about like that your accomplishment is in just the fact that you've accompanied somebody, I'd say it's an exercise in humility, and spaciousness. And I would just couple that with my primary teacher that I invoke is Swami Vivekananda. And he talks so much about this, like intense personal power that we have, in his case, through our relationship with God. And we would unpack that more if the word God or the idea of God freaks people out, understandably, but actually, it's like this intense power that we have through our faith foundations that ultimately allows us to be like, super humble and yielding and kind of spacious. So it's this interesting thing. It's like from this power we develop, we become sort of the opposite of what I think our are my conditioning growing up in the United States means about what it is to be powerful, right? So what it is to be powerful. And the way I think of my conditioning was like, being big and holding your lines and not giving anything up, or whatever it might be. And there's this whole other way of being incredibly powerful, which is through all this yielding and softening. Yeah,

Michele Lawrence
I love that. Wow, you're really speaking to me. But just from like a technical standpoint, or just an informational standpoint, maybe I should say that you do have online trainings in this subject. You've got one going on right now. I imagine they'll continue when this one wraps up to you. And then you're also Can it be featured in a piece in YOGA INTERNATIONAL? Or maybe that's out already? Is that right? Yeah,

Molly Lannon Kenny
it's not out yet. But it should be coming out, hopefully this month, they're really dragging their heels for various reasons, which sometimes happens in the publishing world. But yeah, it's a piece about bedside yoga. Exactly. And it's about doing this work and sort of what it looks like. And I give a little vignette of a particular person that I was working with and talk about, on what that brought up in me to work with a 23 year old woman. I mean, when I picture her I picture girl really. And also, I think that's the other piece with this work is that we really have to be prepared that this work means you could be with someone for months, or you could be with someone for one day, one time. You only ever saw them once.

Michele Lawrence
So finally, and I asked this question, every time at the end of the podcast, in our training programs at inner peace, yoga therapy, we teach our students that are studying to become yoga therapists, that they've got to do their own work first, right? So one of the key pillars to being in working as a yoga therapist is first to have your own steady, daily sodden our spiritual practice. And this sets the foundation comes before holding space and doing any work with others. So I'm curious, can you tell us about your daily practice what it looks like?

Molly Lannon Kenny
I absolutely Can Can I just share a short little story for me? Okay, so I've been really, really fortunate to spend for different personal retreats with ROM das. And one of the retreats, he asked me, What is your sudden? And I just named off this litany of things that I did. I just wanted to impress him.  And so I just told him all these things. He just started laughing and just was like, oh, wow, I guess you do a lot, you know, kind of teasing me. And so it was maybe three or four days later into the retreat. I teased him and I said, Ram Dass, what is it that I need to do? Like I have all the practices like you've tried everything, what should I do is like I You don't have to do anything. And I was like, stop, like, I can't tell my students that my husband was sitting there, I wanted him to meditate. So it really wanted Ram Dass to tell him to meditate. And I was like, he was like, stayed in caves in the Himalayas, you've done this and that and he just kept going, you know, Molly, you don't have to do anything. And I was like, Okay, I pushed him. So finally he says, alright, I can tell you want me to you do want me to tell you something. So I'm going to tell you what you need to do. This is actually the practice and I said, Okay, and he said, you just need to think of God all the time and love everyone. And I just love that story. And I've told it to my very Catholic parents, and it is kind of like this play, right? Because he's saying, you don't have to do anything. You just have to love God all the time. I think about all the time and love everybody, which obviously requires us doing a lot of practice to get there, right? Yeah. So I think of the Bible verse straight as the gate narrow is the way that leads to the kingdom of God. Or even the idea of tapas and yoga and this like intense focus and determination on the practice, until we get there until we're sort of cooked or even in the Bhagavad Gita. And it says, When someone's an initiate, and yoga practices, the means or practices the way, once you're established in yoga, repose is the way. So that is to say that my daily practice at this point is much more about interior and contemplative practices. So I like to do things, honestly, like lying on the floor, and what I call starfish pose, and really thinking that I'm not doing anything, but I'm not in Shavasana. I'm just lying here on the floor. I do quite a bit of chanting practice. I do journaling. And I just do silence sitting and contemplative practices and specifically practices I learned out of the Christian mystic traditions. So some new practices that refreshed my practice, like lectio Divina, or centering prayer, I'm just to sort of give a boost to practices that maybe had become, I don't want to say stale, but yeah, maybe stale. And for my own asana practice, I mean, I was such a long time dedicated off tongi and then I just felt really burnt by all that. And so I began to really not like Asana, I guess because I equated it with this, like intense like doing. So I have come back to yoga Asana. I love yoga Asana. But really, I put it more for me the category of just like moving and being embodied the same way that I buy. I'm a long distance open ocean swimmer. So I do those kinds of physical practices, a little bit separated from my spiritual practice, if that makes sense. So I still do Asana. And I try to do it with intention. But for me, I don't conflate that with my spiritual practice. And when I asked students who begin bedside yoga, what their Sedna is, I always come back to them a little But with my Ram Dass ism and think that those are all great but also what can we bring in that develops the real deep interiority. So I like my practices to be based around that right now.

Michele Lawrence
 Oh, that's awesome. And I just love speaking with you today. Molly, thank you so much. And for folks who want to learn more about Molly and the work she does, you can visit Molly lannon kenny.org. And I'll put that here in the show notes. Thank you.

Molly Lannon Kenny
Thank you so much, Michelle.

Michele Lawrence
If you'd like to learn more about who we are and what we do, visit us at inner peace, yoga therapy.com

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