We've all heard about 5G or fifth-generation mobile technologies but what is it all about and what does the future hold for 5G?
To help answer this question, The Actionable Futurist® Andrew Grill spoke to Paul Scanlan who is the CTO of Huawei's Carrier Business Group.
In this episode, Paul discussed the 5 reasons to trust 5G.
1. No harmful electromagnetic fields
2. 5G is more secure than 4G
3. 5G will spur economic growth
4. 5G will produce less carbon than 4G
5. 5G increases trust in digital systems
We also spoke about:
3 Things for next week
1. Ask your operator to deploy 5G
2. Buy a 5G phone
3. Turn off 2G and 3G networks
Your Host: Actionable Futurist® & Chief Futurist Andrew Grill
For more on Andrew - what he speaks about and recent talks, please visit ActionableFuturist.com
Andrew's Social Channels
Andrew on LinkedIn
@AndrewGrill on Twitter
@Andrew.Grill on Instagram
Keynote speeches here
Andrew's upcoming book
We've all heard about 5G or fifth-generation mobile technologies but what is it all about and what does the future hold for 5G?
To help answer this question, The Actionable Futurist® Andrew Grill spoke to Paul Scanlan who is the CTO of Huawei's Carrier Business Group.
In this episode, Paul discussed the 5 reasons to trust 5G.
1. No harmful electromagnetic fields
2. 5G is more secure than 4G
3. 5G will spur economic growth
4. 5G will produce less carbon than 4G
5. 5G increases trust in digital systems
We also spoke about:
3 Things for next week
1. Ask your operator to deploy 5G
2. Buy a 5G phone
3. Turn off 2G and 3G networks
Your Host: Actionable Futurist® & Chief Futurist Andrew Grill
For more on Andrew - what he speaks about and recent talks, please visit ActionableFuturist.com
Andrew's Social Channels
Andrew on LinkedIn
@AndrewGrill on Twitter
@Andrew.Grill on Instagram
Keynote speeches here
Andrew's upcoming book
Intro: 0:02
Welcome to the Practical Futurist Podcast, a biweekly show all about the near term future with practical advice from a range of global experts to help you stay ahead of the curve. Every episode answers the question: "What's the future of..." with voices and opinions that need to be heard. Your host is international keynote speaker and Practical Futurist Andrew Grill.
Andrew Grill: 0:28
Welcome to episode 4 of Season 2 of the Practical Futurist Podcast. Today we have a special guest, Paul Scanlan, who is CTO of Huawei's carrier network business unit. Paul's career has been linked to technology, specifically information and communication technologies. A fellow Australian, he was educated at University of New South Wales and started his career with Australia's state owned OTC, a precursor to my old stomping ground of Telstra. With more than 30 years experience in the telecom and IT industries, Paul has broad experience across most technologies, having worked in a variety of senior roles across technical commercial operations, sales, marketing, programme management and R & D. Welcome, Paul
Paul Scanlan: 1:06
Thanks very much Andrew
Andrew Grill: 1:06
Now I've just been very fortunate to sit around a round table, with a bunch of influencers and you were quite candid about the challenges that you face in the industry. But this podcast is about the future of ... and I wanted to talk about the future of 5G. So for my listeners out there that may be in markets where 5G isn't live or just been launched, how would you describe 5G and why is it better than 4G?
Paul Scanlan: 1:30
You know, Andrew, this is probably the most misunderstood technology. It's been bandied around is being everything from the the evil of the world, to you know the saviour of the world, right? And I think the answer probably is leaning towards the latter, which is, you know, it's something that that really will transform. So I like to think of 5G as a platform for transformation, so I won't talk about it as a speed thing or this thing or that thing. I'll just talk about it as a platform for transformation. Everybody says, you know, 5G, it's faster, it's this, it's that and everything else. When we talk about how do you operate 4G and how do you operate 5G. When we operate 4G, generally, we designed it for this thing called 20 megahertz (MHz) of spectrum, because in 3G it was 5MHz chunks of spectrum and therefore more megahertz means you get more spectrum. Generally, you get more bang for your buck. When we talk about 5G we're talking with, we're starting with a hundred [MHz], doesn't mean it can't work in 80 or 70 60 or 50 or 10 [MHz], but it was originally thought off, let's try it for 100 MegaHertz. 100MHz against 20MHz. It's about 5:1 if I'm not mistaken, now of course, you've got the uplink in the downlink makes you have .. maybe it's about two or three to one - call a spade a spade so you have about two times or three times more spectrum. So you already not comparing 4G & 5G in like-for-like. We learnt Andrew many years ago, five years ago, in doing a thing called WttX wireless to the something way learnt that we could provide wireless communication as a sort of an alternative or certainly a better time to market than fibre by deploying wireless based technologies to provide home-based broadband solutions. Because you put an antenna in and you can sell - sort of cash and carry, you get five megabits per second 10MB/s maybe 100MB/s right?Now this fixed product is competing with the mobile product. The second one is the bandwidth is not there. So you don't really have enough resources, but we learned very quickly that if we were able to put more antennas in, we call that massive MiMo [Multiple in-Multiple-Out] , then you end up with a better result. Suddenly you can offer not 300 customers 10MB/s. You could offer 3000 customers, 10MB/s and the more customers more ARPU [Average Revenue Per User], more money. Simple. It's all about money. So now comes 5G. The first thing we do we say hang on, we've already got some empirical evidence about how much more efficient having 100 MHz of spectrum is in this WiMax area we're using 2.3 - 2.5 GHz. We've picked a different spectrum 3.5 GHz, which means 3.2 - 3.6, 3.8 GHz maybe 4.2 to 4.6 GHz
Andrew Grill: 4:03
Just for our listeners. the higher the frequency, the more efficient it can be, because you can get more bandwidth through the higher frequencies.
Paul Scanlan: 4:07
Will you get larger amount of continuous spectrum Yes, and understand little bit about how breaking spectrum up into blocks becomes very inefficient.
Paul Scanlan: 4:16
But if you have a big block of spectrum, absolutely right, and that's why the millimetre wave [30GHz+] the even higher stuff is even far more beneficial because you have a clear 1GHz [of spectrum] and suddenly wow, instead of 5MHz I've got 1GHz. Simple physics tells you you're going to get more bang for your buck. So 5G comes along. We're starting the premise is 100MHz. A huge leap ahead of 4G and we've got these improvements in efficiencies. So that's what lend that lent itself to the high throughput. But wait, there's more right, and the more bit comes about things like latency and massive connections. So we could already see that the challenge is alway the latency at the air interface. And the reason for that is because you could imagine from a base station, probably in developed countries, you can have fibre back to the core network fibre back to the core network, 5-10 milliseconds (ms) end-to-end in the UK to the top right. Japan - top to bottom is 10ms, roughly - there's a sort of rough guidances of how much delay you have across these areas. But if you want to do things that are more interesting, like connected car, you don't need 5G for connected car. But if you want autonomous driving, it's one of the options. Yes, you could use other methods, but that's not the most important one. But if you take a robot right, I don't know if you've ever shook the hand of a robot with articulated digits. But the first thing is, if you want, you know 100 kilograms of metal work comes towards you, put something out - the first thing you do is step back. When you put your hand and you grab it, if the latency is not really sharp, then by the time it gets feedback and squeezing your hand, it's probably too late.
Andrew Grill: 5:51
You might crush your hand.
Paul Scanlan: 5:52
You've got it. So we need latency. So there's a practical example, Yes, but you have more - certainly the connected car within a couple of metres. The shorter duration robotics interaction. Let's talk about the medical profession. If you wanted to do telemedicine, remote medicine, so between a practitioner, a highly capable person. Let's take a simple one like it's not really simple. Let's take ultra sounds. So you have an expert, a technician, sitting there with a couple $100,000 worth of equipment. What about the village that 200kms or 300kms away? So we just discussed about this thing called latency. What about if I wanted this person to do some remote monitoring of a man or a woman or something on the abdomen? And we've got these tactile feedback devices, but the person is 200kms away. So you imagine, there's a triage nurse strapping this thing to your body for a couple of $1000 which is cost effective. And you got the expert with all their brain power and all their analytics back up here with his scopes and everything and now he presses and 200 kilometres away it's pressing on you. And then by the time he gets the feedback, he's got to realise that I shouldn't have pushed too far.
Andrew Grill: 6:55
it's the robot problem, you don't want to crush the patient
Paul Scanlan: 6:57
You got it. So this so this same problem, this is the latency thing. So here's a couple of industries in a couple of sectors that where you can feel that latency is important. Robots inside a factory. Today factories, you know Factories Andrew haven't changed in 150 years. Everything is serial from the day we industrialised the UK right? I give you the material, you do your bit, you pass it to him, he passes it to her, she passes it to them ... what happens today? Robotic plant: Robot A does this, passes it to Robot B, passes it to Robot C. So let's suppose this boardroom that we're in now, which will be vacant in a couple of hours, is the next factory from 12noon to 6pm and in come, the robot's wheeling themselves around connected with 5G. They're all made from different companies. Kawasaki Abb, you know, etcetera and they're all connected to the cloud via 5G. So the latency is really small. And of course, if you take beyond this IoT thing of a few connections to multiple connections but person to devices everywhere lamp post, ties, dresses, salt, pepper shakers, everything the cup of tea bags all connected and they will be you might think it's stupid. But today it'll get down to something 1/3 the size of your fingernail, then everything's connected. If you have that competition of connectivity of things in a cell, a mobile cell with people, you have come back to the first problem of fixed wireless access together with mobile competing for resources. And it's signalling resources and you won't have a few 1000 people per cell. You might have hundreds of thousands.
Andrew Grill: 8:23
The thing with the it is, you don't necessarily need the speed, because some of these things are transmitting at low data rate. But if you've got millions of them in the same spot, they all want to compete for radio spectrum to say, hey, I want to give you my data.
Paul Scanlan: 8:34
You've got it, and so you're quite right, Andrew, that the data rates are pretty small less than a couple of kilobytes, but you have a lot of them, and it's the signal, you know, I've got to wake up, I've got to communicate, so it's a bit like signalling overhead, traffic's it's competing for this small amount of data, so there is lot of optimisation bottom line. So we factored that in. So that's why you have speed, latency and throughput as the three key components of 5G, but what nobody ever talks about is the social impact of 5G. The social impact directly is about energy. So today we're at the product and solution launch of Huawei and we announced that we have a 5G product that is now - it went one year ago 40 kilograms (kgs) to 25kg from 200MHz bandwidth to 400MHz bandwidth, but also consumes about the same amount of energy as a 4G site. So you've just gone for something that's 20 to 100 times better for the same amount of energy. So some of the analysis that's been done by very specifically a company called STL Partners, a consulting company here in the UK and they've done some analysis based on Huawei's products and all the competitors products and looking at all the networks around the world and their energy consumption and a very simple tagline is that if you keep building 4G networks, you double the carbon footprint of the planet. But if you use 5G, it flattens out and it starts to reduce within five years. That's not a bad reason for deploying 5G above all the others.
Andrew Grill: 9:59
I think you're a great storyteller. I said I just had the opportunity to spend an hour and half in the room and you mentioned a point about your base station equipment going down in weight. You told a great story about why that weight ... Now people know about Huawei for all different reasons, but I love this story about how the thing dropped in weight, would you care to share that story?
Paul Scanlan: 10:19
So I was at a meeting in headquarters and the CEO was sitting at the table with a number of us, including the product R&D Director and the product R&D Director was showing the new version of the 1st 5G base station that we were going to be launching in a few months, and the weight was 45 kilograms.And he said, knocked on the table. What do you mean 45 kilos? Don't you understandooccupational health and safety in Europe? It's 40 kilos. Everybody looked at him, what does that mean? Well he said "you need a crane! If you need a crane to install this, how expensive it will be for our customers and how the time delay, plus the expense and everything. Everything's The wrong targets, you know, the capital equipment costs will be too high. Three months later, our R&D engineer came back in 40 kilos, right, thank you very much. 40 kilos. We launched it now with 25 kilos, and he just stood on stage and said, do you know why it's 20 kilos? Because a person is allowed to carry a 20 kilo product and install it and you know, so we're always thinking about how do we improve person, the customer's business. It's not about we've got a great product, you want to buy it or you should buy this product because it's got these features were always thinking about from the customer's perspective. And generally everybody has the same KPIs. They have 4 KPIs. It's called revenue profit, brand, and market share. You want all of those things. That's what you want, right? That's the key metrics. So we always think about those components whenever we're building products or solutions or focusing on customers and things like that.Probably that I would say for the four lowest hanging fruit for its off five g application in industry, and this is rhetoric comes down from a lot of analytical consultants have done. Not in behalf of why we're probably all the other vendors as well and informer and all these sort of analytic companies and research cos it's really first dozen industry, understand five g because you know you're doing podcasts. Example. You might be a journalist. So what do you understand by five G? Well, I understand nothing. So no point talking to journalists. Just example, right? Same sort of thing you could say in the health industry. Not well understood. Five G And what could it do to my industry, but in manufacturing very different. And the reason is different. Manufacturing is because of this thing called connectivity. Yes, because the robots today are connected, and they're connected by sensors that are in the robotic arms and the robot equipment for one specific reason. That's predictive maintenance. They do a lot of other things, but predictive maintenance is the key one. So when we speak to the executives off thes manufacturing companies and we did it not just in UK and Germany, we did Brazil in Indonesia. So we going to do sort of a developed and developing market perspective. First question is do you understand? Five Jean? The answer is yes. What you expect it to do for you? Expected this and this and this low latency, massive connexions and ultra reliable and ultra secure. They weren't so thinking about that. Not from the first perspective. Music in the manufacturing, the streets about the connectivity bit. So what they wanted is they want to go from two or five senses 2 10 or more senses When you can't do that, if you've got a WiFi network or blue to network, the connectivity is complicated. It doesn't give you a guaranteed grade of service nor security of service.and really so the probably that I would say for the four lowest hanging fruit for its off five g application in industry, and this is rhetoric comes down from a lot of analytical consultants have done. Not in behalf of why we're probably all the other vendors as well and informer and all these sort of analytic companies and research cos it's really first dozen industry, understand five g because you know you're doing podcasts. Example. You might be a journalist. So what do you understand by five G? Well, I understand nothing. So no point talking to journalists. Just example, right? Same sort of thing you could say in the health industry. Not well understood. Five G And what could it do to my industry, but in manufacturing very different. And the reason is different. Manufacturing is because of this thing called connectivity. Yes, because the robots today are connected, and they're connected by sensors that are in the robotic arms and the robot equipment for one specific reason. That's predictive maintenance. They do a lot of other things, but predictive maintenance is the key one. So when we speak to the executives off thes manufacturing companies and we did it not just in UK and Germany, we did Brazil in Indonesia. So we going to do sort of a developed and developing market perspective. First question is do you understand? Five Jean? The answer is yes. What you expect it to do for you? Expected this and this and this low latency, massive connexions and ultra reliable and ultra secure. They weren't so thinking about that. Not from the first perspective. Music in the manufacturing, the streets about the connectivity bit. So what they wanted is they want to go from two or five senses 2 10 or more senses When you can't do that, if you've got a WiFi network or blue to network, the connectivity is complicated. It doesn't give you a guaranteed grade of service nor security of service.Probably that I would say for the four lowest hanging fruit for its off five g application in industry, and this is rhetoric comes down from a lot of analytical consultants have done. Not in behalf of why we're probably all the other vendors as well and informer and all these sort of analytic companies and research cos it's really first dozen industry, understand five g because you know you're doing podcasts. Example. You might be a journalist. So what do you understand by five G? Well, I understand nothing. So no point talking to journalists. Just example, right? Same sort of thing you could say in the health industry. Not well understood. Five G And what could it do to my industry, but in manufacturing very different. And the reason is different. Manufacturing is because of this thing called connectivity. Yes, because the robots today are connected, and they're connected by sensors that are in the robotic arms and the robot equipment for one specific reason. That's predictive maintenance. They do a lot of other things, but predictive maintenance is the key one. So when we speak to the executives off thes manufacturing companies and we did it not just in UK and Germany, we did Brazil in Indonesia. So we going to do sort of a developed and developing market perspective. First question is do you understand? Five Jean? The answer is yes. What you expect it to do for you? Expected this and this and this low latency, massive connexions and ultra reliable and ultra secure. They weren't so thinking about that. Not from the first perspective. Music in the manufacturing, the streets about the connectivity bit. So what they wanted is they want to go from two or five senses 2 10 or more senses When you can't do that, if you've got a WiFi network or blue to network, the connectivity is complicated. It doesn't give you a guaranteed grade of service nor security of service.and really so the probably that I would say for the four lowest hanging fruit for its off five g application in industry, and this is rhetoric comes down from a lot of analytical consultants have done. Not in behalf of why we're probably all the other vendors as well and informer and all these sort of analytic companies and research cos it's really first dozen industry, understand five g because you know you're doing podcasts. Example. You might be a journalist. So what do you understand by five G? Well, I understand nothing. So no point talking to journalists. Just example, right? Same sort of thing you could say in the health industry. Not well understood. Five G And what could it do to my industry, but in manufacturing very different. And the reason is different. Manufacturing is because of this thing called connectivity. Yes, because the robots today are connected, and they're connected by sensors that are in the robotic arms and the robot equipment for one specific reason. That's predictive maintenance. They do a lot of other things, but predictive maintenance is the key one. So when we speak to the executives off thes manufacturing companies and we did it not just in UK and Germany, we did Brazil in Indonesia. So we going to do sort of a developed and developing market perspective. First question is do you understand? Five Jean? The answer is yes. What you expect it to do for you? Expected this and this and this low latency, massive connexions and ultra reliable and ultra secure. They weren't so thinking about that. Not from the first perspective. Music in the manufacturing, the streets about the connectivity bit. So what they wanted is they want to go from two or five senses 2 10 or more senses When you can't do that, if you've got a WiFi network or blue to network, the connectivity is complicated. It doesn't give you a guaranteed grade of service nor security of service.and really so the probably that I would say for the four lowest hanging fruit for its off five g application in industry, and this is rhetoric comes down from a lot of analytical consultants have done. Not in behalf of why we're probably all the other vendors as well and informer and all these sort of analytic companies and research cos it's really first dozen industry, understand five g because you know you're doing podcasts. Example. You might be a journalist. So what do you understand by five G? Well, I understand nothing. So no point talking to journalists. Just example, right? Same sort of thing you could say in the health industry. Not well understood. Five G And what could it do to my industry, but in manufacturing very different. And the reason is different. Manufacturing is because of this thing called connectivity. Yes, because the robots today are connected, and they're connected by sensors that are in the robotic arms and the robot equipment for one specific reason. That's predictive maintenance. They do a lot of other things, but predictive maintenance is the key one. So when we speak to the executives off thes manufacturing companies and we did it not just in UK and Germany, we did Brazil in Indonesia. So we going to do sort of a developed and developing market perspective. First question is do you understand? Five Jean? The answer is yes. What you expect it to do for you? Expected this and this and this low latency, massive connexions and ultra reliable and ultra secure. They weren't so thinking about that. Not from the first perspective. Music in the manufacturing, the streets about the connectivity bit. So what they wanted is they want to go from two or five senses 2 10 or more senses When you can't do that, if you've got a WiFi network or blue to network, the connectivity is complicated. It doesn't give you a guaranteed grade of service nor security of service.
Andrew Grill: 0:00
Probably that I would say for the four lowest hanging fruit for its off five g application in industry, and this is rhetoric comes down from a lot of analytical consultants have done. Not in behalf of why we're probably all the other vendors as well and informer and all these sort of analytic companies and research cos it's really first dozen industry, understand five g because you know you're doing podcasts. Example. You might be a journalist. So what do you understand by five G? Well, I understand nothing. So no point talking to journalists. Just example, right? Same sort of thing you could say in the health industry. Not well understood. Five G And what could it do to my industry, but in manufacturing very different. And the reason is different. Manufacturing is because of this thing called connectivity. Yes, because the robots today are connected, and they're connected by sensors that are in the robotic arms and the robot equipment for one specific reason. That's predictive maintenance. They do a lot of other things, but predictive maintenance is the key one. So when we speak to the executives off thes manufacturing companies and we did it not just in UK and Germany, we did Brazil in Indonesia. So we going to do sort of a developed and developing market perspective. First question is do you understand? Five Jean? The answer is yes. What you expect it to do for you? Expected this and this and this low latency, massive connexions and ultra reliable and ultra secure. They weren't so thinking about that. Not from the first perspective. Music in the manufacturing, the streets about the connectivity bit. So what they wanted is they want to go from two or five senses 2 10 or more senses When you can't do that, if you've got a WiFi network or blue to network, the connectivity is complicated. It doesn't give you a guaranteed grade of service nor security of service.and really so the probably that I would say for the four lowest hanging fruit for its off five g application in industry, and this is rhetoric comes down from a lot of analytical consultants have done. Not in behalf of why we're probably all the other vendors as well and informer and all these sort of analytic companies and research cos it's really first dozen industry, understand five g because you know you're doing podcasts. Example. You might be a journalist. So what do you understand by five G? Well, I understand nothing. So no point talking to journalists. Just example, right? Same sort of thing you could say in the health industry. Not well understood. Five G And what could it do to my industry, but in manufacturing very different. And the reason is different. Manufacturing is because of this thing called connectivity. Yes, because the robots today are connected, and they're connected by sensors that are in the robotic arms and the robot equipment for one specific reason. That's predictive maintenance. They do a lot of other things, but predictive maintenance is the key one. So when we speak to the executives off thes manufacturing companies and we did it not just in UK and Germany, we did Brazil in Indonesia. So we going to do sort of a developed and developing market perspective. First question is do you understand? Five Jean? The answer is yes. What you expect it to do for you? Expected this and this and this low latency, massive connexions and ultra reliable and ultra secure. They weren't so thinking about that. Not from the first perspective. Music in the manufacturing, the streets about the connectivity bit. So what they wanted is they want to go from two or five senses 2 10 or more senses When you can't do that, if you've got a WiFi network or blue to network, the connectivity is complicated. It doesn't give you a guaranteed grade of service nor security of service.and really so the probably that I would say for the four lowest hanging fruit for its off five g application in industry, and this is rhetoric comes down from a lot of analytical consultants have done. Not in behalf of why we're probably all the other vendors as well and informer and all these sort of analytic companies and research cos it's really first dozen industry, understand five g because you know you're doing podcasts. Example. You might be a journalist. So what do you understand by five G? Well, I understand nothing. So no point talking to journalists. Just example, right? Same sort of thing you could say in the health industry. Not well understood. Five G And what could it do to my industry, but in manufacturing very different. And the reason is different. Manufacturing is because of this thing called connectivity. Yes, because the robots today are connected, and they're connected by sensors that are in the robotic arms and the robot equipment for one specific reason. That's predictive maintenance. They do a lot of other things, but predictive maintenance is the key one. So when we speak to the executives off thes manufacturing companies and we did it not just in UK and Germany, we did Brazil in Indonesia. So we going to do sort of a developed and developing market perspective. First question is do you understand? Five Jean? The answer is yes. What you expect it to do for you? Expected this and this and this low latency, massive connexions and ultra reliable and ultra secure. They weren't so thinking about that. Not from the first perspective. Music in the manufacturing, the streets about the connectivity bit. So what they wanted is they want to go from two or five senses 2 10 or more senses When you can't do that, if you've got a WiFi network or blue to network, the connectivity is complicated. It doesn't give you a guaranteed grade of service nor security of service.So we're both sitting here in London, just for some context we both were going to go to Mobile World Congress [MWC] next week at time of recording in Barcelona and due to the tragic consequences of the Coronavirus were now not going because it's been cancelled.I remember back in 2009, and I've been going to MWC like you for many years. 2009 it was all about 4G and LTE, and I think probably right now we're at the same point again where we've got this new technology, we're trying to leverage it. I remember though when 3G was launched, probably in 2006 the use case was we could make video calls. I think I've made 2 video calls in my life. If we were to have been at MWC next week, what would the chatter have been about 5G, not just from your organisation, but where do you think, and this more towards the ecosystem question - where are people unlocking the power of 5G and making it beyond carrier grade equipment and actually making people's lives better?Probably that I would say for the four lowest hanging fruit for its off five g application in industry, and this is rhetoric comes down from a lot of analytical consultants have done. Not in behalf of why we're probably all the other vendors as well and informer and all these sort of analytic companies and research cos it's really first dozen industry, understand five g because you know you're doing podcasts. Example. You might be a journalist. So what do you understand by five G? Well, I understand nothing. So no point talking to journalists. Just example, right? Same sort of thing you could say in the health industry. Not well understood. Five G And what could it do to my industry, but in manufacturing very different. And the reason is different. Manufacturing is because of this thing called connectivity. Yes, because the robots today are connected, and they're connected by sensors that are in the robotic arms and the robot equipment for one specific reason. That's predictive maintenance. They do a lot of other things, but predictive maintenance is the key one. So when we speak to the executives off thes manufacturing companies and we did it not just in UK and Germany, we did Brazil in Indonesia. So we going to do sort of a developed and developing market perspective. First question is do you understand? Five Jean? The answer is yes. What you expect it to do for you? Expected this and this and this low latency, massive connexions and ultra reliable and ultra secure. They weren't so thinking about that. Not from the first perspective. Music in the manufacturing, the streets about the connectivity bit. So what they wanted is they want to go from two or five senses 2 10 or more senses When you can't do that, if you've got a WiFi network or blue to network, the connectivity is complicated. It doesn't give you a guaranteed grade of service nor security of service.and really so the probably that I would say for the four lowest hanging fruit for its off five g application in industry, and this is rhetoric comes down from a lot of analytical consultants have done. Not in behalf of why we're probably all the other vendors as well and informer and all these sort of analytic companies and research cos it's really first dozen industry, understand five g because you know you're doing podcasts. Example. You might be a journalist. So what do you understand by five G? Well, I understand nothing. So no point talking to journalists. Just example, right? Same sort of thing you could say in the health industry. Not well understood. Five G And what could it do to my industry, but in manufacturing very different. And the reason is different. Manufacturing is because of this thing called connectivity. Yes, because the robots today are connected, and they're connected by sensors that are in the robotic arms and the robot equipment for one specific reason. That's predictive maintenance. They do a lot of other things, but predictive maintenance is the key one. So when we speak to the executives off thes manufacturing companies and we did it not just in UK and Germany, we did Brazil in Indonesia. So we going to do sort of a developed and developing market perspective. First question is do you understand? Five Jean? The answer is yes. What you expect it to do for you? Expected this and this and this low latency, massive connexions and ultra reliable and ultra secure. They weren't so thinking about that. Not from the first perspective. Music in the manufacturing, the streets about the connectivity bit. So what they wanted is they want to go from two or five senses 2 10 or more senses When you can't do that, if you've got a WiFi network or blue to network, the connectivity is complicated. It doesn't give you a guaranteed grade of service nor security of service.and really so the probably that I would say for the four lowest hanging fruit for its off five g application in industry, and this is rhetoric comes down from a lot of analytical consultants have done. Not in behalf of why we're probably all the other vendors as well and informer and all these sort of analytic companies and research cos it's really first dozen industry, understand five g because you know you're doing podcasts. Example. You might be a journalist. So what do you understand by five G? Well, I understand nothing. So no point talking to journalists. Just example, right? Same sort of thing you could say in the health industry. Not well understood. Five G And what could it do to my industry, but in manufacturing very different. And the reason is different. Manufacturing is because of this thing called connectivity. Yes, because the robots today are connected, and they're connected by sensors that are in the robotic arms and the robot equipment for one specific reason. That's predictive maintenance. They do a lot of other things, but predictive maintenance is the key one. So when we speak to the executives off thes manufacturing companies and we did it not just in UK and Germany, we did Brazil in Indonesia. So we going to do sort of a developed and developing market perspective. First question is do you understand? Five Jean? The answer is yes. What you expect it to do for you? Expected this and this and this low latency, massive connexions and ultra reliable and ultra secure. They weren't so thinking about that. Not from the first perspective. Music in the manufacturing, the streets about the connectivity bit. So what they wanted is they want to go from two or five senses 2 10 or more senses When you can't do that, if you've got a WiFi network or blue to network, the connectivity is complicated. It doesn't give you a guaranteed grade of service nor security of service.
Andrew Grill: 0:00
So we're both sitting here in London, just for some context we both were going to go to Mobile World Congress [MWC] next week at time of recording in Barcelona and due to the tragic consequences of the Coronavirus were now not going because it's been cancelled.I remember back in 2009, and I've been going to MWC like you for many years. 2009 it was all about 4G and LTE, and I think probably right now we're at the same point again where we've got this new technology, we're tr
Andrew Grill: 0:00
So we're both sitting here in London, just for some context we both were going to go to Mobile World Congress [MWC] next week at time of recording in Barcelona and due to the tragic consequences of the Coronavirus were now not going because it's been cancelled.I remember back in 2009, and I've been going to MWC like you for many years. 2009 it was all about 4G and LTE, and I think probably right now we're at the same point again where we've got this new technology, we're trying to leverage it. I remember though when 3G was launched, probably in 2006 the use case was we could make video calls. I think I've made 2 video calls in my life. If we were to have been at MWC next week, what would the chatter have been about 5G, not just from your organisation, but where do you think, and this more towards the ecosystem question - where are people unlocking the power of 5G and making it beyond carrier grade equipment and actually making people's lives better?Probably that I would say for the four lowest hanging fruit for its off five g application in industry, and this is rhetoric comes down from a lot of analytical consultants have done. Not in behalf of why we're probably all the other vendors as well and informer and all these sort of analytic companies and research cos it's really first dozen industry, understand five g because you know you're doing podcasts. Example. You might be a journalist. So what do you understand by five G? Well, I understand nothing. So no point talking to journalists. Just example, right? Same sort of thing you could say in the health industry. Not well understood. Five G And what could it do to my industry, but in manufacturing very different. And the reason is different. Manufacturing is because of this thing called connectivity. Yes, because the robots today are connected, and they're connected by sensors that are in the robotic arms and the robot equipment for one specific reason. That's predictive maintenance. They do a lot of other things, but predictive maintenance is the key one. So when we speak to the executives off thes manufacturing companies and we did it not just in UK and Germany, we did Brazil in Indonesia. So we going to do sort of a developed and developing market perspective. First question is do you understand? Five Jean? The answer is yes. What you expect it to do for you? Expected this and this and this low latency, massive connexions and ultra reliable and ultra secure. They weren't so thinking about that. Not from the first perspective. Music in the manufacturing, the streets about the connectivity bit. So what they wanted is they want to go from two or five senses 2 10 or more senses When you can't do that, if you've got a WiFi network or blue to network, the connectivity is complicated. It doesn't give you a guaranteed grade of service nor security of service.and really so the probably that I would say for the four lowest hanging fruit for its off five g application in industry, and this is rhetoric comes down from a lot of analytical consultants have done. Not in behalf of why we're probably all the other vendors as well and informer and all these sort of analytic companies and research cos it's really first dozen industry, understand five g because you know you're doing podcasts. Example. You might be a journalist. So what do you understand by five G? Well, I understand nothing. So no point talking to journalists. Just example, right? Same sort of thing you could say in the health industry. Not well understood. Five G And what could it do to my industry, but in manufacturing very different. And the reason is different. Manufacturing is because of this thing called connectivity. Yes, because the robots today are connected, and they're connected by sensors that are in the robotic arms and the robot equipment for one specific reason. That's predictive maintenance. They do a lot of other things, but predictive maintenance is the key one. So when we speak to the executives off thes manufacturing companies and we did it not just in UK and Germany, we did Brazil in Indonesia. So we going to do sort of a developed and developing market perspective. First question is do you understand? Five Jean? The answer is yes. What you expect it to do for you? Expected this and this and this low latency, massive connexions and ultra reliable and ultra secure. They weren't so thinking about that. Not from the first perspective. Music in the manufacturing, the streets about the connectivity bit. So what they wanted is they want to go from two or five senses 2 10 or more senses When you can't do that, if you've got a WiFi network or blue to network, the connectivity is complicated. It doesn't give you a guaranteed grade of service nor security of service.and really so the probably that I would say for the four lowest hanging fruit for its off five g application in industry, and this is rhetoric comes down from a lot of analytical consultants have done. Not in behalf of why we're probably all the other vendors as well and informer and all these sort of analytic companies and research cos it's really first dozen industry, understand five g because you know you're doing podcasts. Example. You might be a journalist. So what do you understand by five G? Well, I understand nothing. So no point talking to journalists. Just example, right? Same sort of thing you could say in the health industry. Not well understood. Five G And what could it do to my industry, but in manufacturing very different. And the reason is different. Manufacturing is because of this thing called connectivity. Yes, because the robots today are connected, and they're connected by sensors that are in the robotic arms and the robot equipment for one specific reason. That's predictive maintenance. They do a lot of other things, but predictive maintenance is the key one. So when we speak to the executives off thes manufacturing companies and we did it not just in UK and Germany, we did Brazil in Indonesia. So we going to do sort of a developed and developing market perspective. First question is do you understand? Five Jean? The answer is yes. What you expect it to do for you? Expected this and this and this low latency, massive connexions and ultra reliable and ultra secure. They weren't so thinking about that. Not from the first perspective. Music in the manufacturing, the streets about the connectivity bit. So what they wanted is they want to go from two or five senses 2 10 or more senses When you can't do that, if you've got a WiFi network or blue to network, the connectivity is complicated. It doesn't give you a guaranteed grade of service nor security of service.
Andrew Grill: 14:18
So just on that so what the question is going to be, Why wouldn't you use WiFi in a factory? And so why is 5Gg more secure than WiFi?
Paul Scanlan: 14:26
So that's that. I'll come back down to maybe wrap it up with that one because I'll sort of the the idea that the industry understood these sort of four areas, right? So their target is predictive maintenance, and the reason for that is 1%. Improvement is about $150 billion globally. Now that's gotta downstream effect for everything. It means the products are better, cheaper. It means that the company does consume less energy. So you're quite right. It's a downstream flow on effect, and they understand that. But in terms of five G and maybe we come back down to the other reason that five G was developed and when we were considering it. And despite all the nonsense you hear, it's quite frankly, it's nonsense, right in the press about security and while way and the way it's been intertwined and five g security. And while when all those sorts of things absolute nonsense. When we engineered five G, we engineered it to be far more secure than forgery. Let me give you a practical example. Every time you turn your mobile phone on, you know you have signalling Connexion to the base station in for G. It's pretty easy. How easy? A researcher at the university So researchers university. They're smart, they have no money. So somebody's got no money, but it is capable. Khun, build it on a laptop and he can spoof the base station. And every synergy just sits back and listens. And I've got your captors. Captors captures or so I know exactly who you are, where you are now, all this stuff. So it's not that secure. So what we did in five Jews, we did two very specific things at this air interface between the handset, the smartphone and the base station. The first thing we did was we encrypted everything encrypted into 56 pits. And if you know your listeners understanding property, do some research. You're going to calculate how many hundreds of thousands of years you need, even with a quantum computer, so you're not going to crack it too easily. First bit so encrypted. Second thing we do is we put it like a tunnel like an SSL a VPN PN. People understand that BP inserts a secure layer. We put that straight through and it goes straight through the base station so it doesn't matter if it's a while way or any other venue was base station. Nobody sees the traffic. It's a tunnel you can't see into a tunnel, so that goes away through back to the core network. That's the second thing we did for security. The third thing we did and people have heard this concept of network slicing in the core network. We already identified that we're going to have this huge amount of opportunities for different type off metrics to be monetised and to be specific for different interests. Sector video traffic versus voice versus traffic, for example. Could be yes. And maybe we take the industry. We could say maybe a secure layer for security services. Maybe another one for the health industry. Maybe another one for the gamers. Other people for the mums and dads. You know, that sort of s o by industry, by application type, you could split it by massive devices. Coyotes, you mentioned. Yes, you could do it that we get another layer for for high throughput V, our sort of thing or massive faltering. So you could do anything you liked. It is has some restrictions by the number of layers, but the principles were sliced the network. Now we never did that in for G, so we never had to think about security by service layer. So that's what we engineered and designed in the core network. So they're three areas where we enhanced security to rent very specific problems. So that means ah, five g network. It's going to be very, very difficult to snoop or eavesdrop. That's a good thing. That's good thing. From privacy perspective. It also means that perhaps administration's need to communicate with the administration's and request data rather than doing another way, perhaps way won't go there. Thiss podcast. But you get the idea right? So there's three areas where we want enhance security, and I think you know yourself. When you turn on WiFi, you get what you pay for its free so soon. Is that our senses? I want your name, details and everything else in this hotel to be able to connect to that WiFi. You say Yes. Suddenly you've given all your data away
Andrew Grill: 18:10
unless you like me. That's in something. Another podcast. I never give my real name or real birthday to any system. And surprise, Surprise. They let me s So you're saying there's a lot of fake data? E. I like talking about things in threes, but with five, you've got to go to five. So can you give us five reasons to trust five. Let
Paul Scanlan: 18:29
me explain why I picked the 1st 1 as first. I didn't really pick it first, but what I want to present it first, and it's about electromagnetic radiation. So we thought we'd start with the EU's cases and all the easy stuff or all the things that everybody. Why don't we talk about the real issues? Because that's what was topical at the time. You know, for the last 12 months, everybody has been out there, you know, to fry your brain. It'll do this. It'll do that. I've got great engineering friends in Australia.
Andrew Grill: 18:52
I don't want that he
Paul Scanlan: 18:53
were sitting on the beach. You're playing with your five g phone and it's going to fry me because I'm sitting next to you. Where's the proof? Very good question. So I did three things, you know. The first thing I said was, let's bust this myth and the first bit was first. Need a bit of fact. The first bit of fact was, let's talk about what is the IMF and where is it? And all the spacing called Spectrum Point put it in perspective. So people have a visual aid to understand. What is this stuff we're talking about? And the 2nd 1 Mr to really show the original research? Yes, and the idea wasn't to discredit anybody The idea was just to say that the research was done at a particular time by people for a particular purpose, and it was done a certain way. So that's how it was. But it wasn't done in a rigorous way to demonstrate real life situation. So, you know, you do it on mice, cells, brain cells in a lab. You get one type of result walking down the streets, a different use case, absolutely different scales. Look, you've bean. We've had mobile phone strapped away. We use for how many years? 30 years? I think we're all mostly normal, and we've all been looking at laptops. And strangely, nobody has are
Andrew Grill: 19:56
a sonically WiFi to point for Gig isn't a microwave oven to point for geeks. They're very similar. So you should be more worried about WiFi and Michael. Do you not
Paul Scanlan: 20:06
remember the first microwave ovens that came out? The next hot itself hottest selling item was a micro of radiation leakage detector, right, because everyone put in and what did it show? There's no leakage because that's right. So it was not happening. Let's talk about facts. So I just wanted to highlight the facts. What is this thing called the IMF, And where does this spectrum that we could talk about fitting with respect to radios and televisions? And by the way, a lot of research shows that they give off a lot more radiation than what we're talking about here. But the most conclusive proof is let's talk about the World Health Organisation, the A and other studies have also demonstrated this, that there's no conclusive proof that it does anything. And I thought that was a good thing to start with you rather than have this scaremongering. It'll do this. I heard that. But we just referred to a medical. A medical expert in industry, medical expert, the World Health Organisation, who has studied it, analysed, that published on I think that then. So the point. I'm making news. Let's clarify and its publishing the truce about a lot of these things, which is, I think, what you wanted me to start with her. And so IMF Avery important. Let's state the truth. It's not about saying somebody is right or wrong. It's about saying that the evidence today demonstrate that it is unlikely that there's any from whether it's five or four or three genes. It's that's not the point at all. So that's why I started with the 1st 1 You can trust five G that it's not going to fry your brain. You put it that way. The second I want to talk about was about security, because that is thie, also the current hot topic. And I think I've probably addressed that. We've tidied those sorts of things up. So five g much more secure than for G in the third area. That one, I sort of also started touching is about energy efficiency, and that's really the concept that you know. If you have demand, you need to service demand. And if you're going to build networks and build expansion, anything you need to use the thing that's the most efficient and in this case, energy efficiency. And the reason we focus on energy efficiency, quite frankly, is because if you look at an operator's operating costs his cap ex and his Op X, and just look at the first sight you'll see roughly between 60 and 67% of every operator in the world is Op X, not KPIX. It's not about how expensive equipment is. It's about my operating
Andrew Grill: 22:06
costs. Run every day at least. The site you gotta power. You've got to secure it.
Paul Scanlan: 22:09
You've got it. So the back hall on the tobacco is running roughly 17%. Power consumption is around 12%. Me and the site Leasing costs is about 30%. Rough numbers? Yes. So five G can fix two of those three, Right. It'll fix the power back the power and they'll fix the site. There isn't fixes. The site is because in one box, as we demonstrated downstairs supports 2345 g every single frequency known to man. It's in one box and it hangs on hangs on anything.
Andrew Grill: 22:37
The third
Paul Scanlan: 22:38
one really was around. Efficiency as the 4th 1 is all about the sort of the industrial applications if I'm not mistaken it. So in this case, that's where I was really trying to show, I think, by eight different industry sectors what the contribution GDP contribution five g could make. And that's the one that shows quite convincingly that you're manufacturing running about 4.3% transport distribution, running around 4.7 or something. Health, one point something percent. Okay, It looks less on health and on manufacturing. But you have to understand that they're pretty big industry, so one or 2% of a trillion dollars is a lot of money, but also represents the maturity of understanding off those industries of what five G can do to them. And remember, there's no lateral thinking yet. So we haven't built an environment where these all these things come together and partners and innovators and coming with all this technology, both five g even cloud and I quit drinking. So putting all those things together, you get a lot of different ideas. Then we move into the last one, which is really about the concept of digital systems. And the reason I may cook about digital systems is because you imagine today people are connected here and we had connectivity for a long time. We just doing SMS and voice suddenly know we've got this thing called broadband. You just mentioned maybe we're doing some podcast, maybe some video. Maybe we're interacting with Facebook or somebody else, and so suddenly you've got a couple of different things, but it still focusing around people they're going to have things were going to have connectivity between things, so it's all the chairs are going to be connected. But all the people who sit on them with their pants are also going to be connect
Andrew Grill: 24:09
on. The reason why is we want to know if there's someone sitting in the chair or not. So this morning, when the room was very busy, you could've said there were 14 seats down the front. They're unavailable because the chair is telling some system that it's available
Paul Scanlan: 24:20
and you can see it on a napkin. You see what we can do. Those things were easily so. The key is this thing called collaborative analysis. So that means collaboration between people, collaboration between things well, howto things collaborate well, they collaborate, vory I but things and people. So imagine a simple day in the future and people smoke. What do I think of the future? Will? Let's suppose all the all the cars that connected, connected and driverless cars don't crash right? You crash into me, I crash into her. That's what That's the reality. So a smart government would say, Well, hang on. I'm going to revoke all those licences and rescind all as registration. All those cars were going have autonomous cars, but there's more if all the traffic lights were connected. Or actually we don't need traffic lights and traffic lights is because this II, which is connected, all the people and all the things and all the other bits and the cars now knows that. Andrew, you can leave in three minutes because your car is parked in B two poor. You can leave in seven minutes because you're in B seven on the way you're going to drive and you know and sues. You can leave it this time, and Jenny can leave at that time because we know that you've said you're going to go home to here. We know where you are with all the traffic. We know the traffic from here from we know everything and therefore the best route to optimise this and you won't cross the street. The traffic lights. Who's no need traffic lights? Because where I'm going to see new tool cross. There'll only be three cars and 20 people, so therefore people have the priority. But the other intersection is going to be 20 cars and three people, so to optimise everything, this is what we're going to do
Andrew Grill: 25:43
well. Actually, I'll go further. As a futurist, I talk about when we have autonomous cars. Basically, we won't be allowed Teo be on roads that are autonomous only, so it looks like fences. You did write with five G, allowing cars that speech, which you don't need traffic light because the cards know where they are. So I think in our lifetime we will not be allowed to step onto a road because there'll be autonomous Lane's only and I think we are. That is a really thing that can happen, a sort of issues as well. What's one question you're most frequently asked about five G and about highway as a company. Perhaps
Paul Scanlan: 26:15
more recently, I'll take the last question is, given the geopolitical things, you know, isn't it easier just to give up in certain markets rather than carry on? But that's that's not in always nature. We've bean trying and fighting and developing and inventing and delivering for customers. You know, $17 billion in RND customers that love us. You don't get 91 contracts in five G by accident. You don't control 20% of intrinsic five G patents by accident and you don't get 87 a half 1000 patents globally by exit,
Andrew Grill: 26:44
having worked at IBM, who very part of the crowd of their patent that that's something that companies see Israel value,
Paul Scanlan: 26:49
Of course there. And that's probably why we are misunderstood. Maybe they don't want to understand this. But private company. Nobody believes that, right? Working for almost 12 years, these are the things that we do, right? I see this. They see the passion in the company to try to deliver the promise that you know the founder sets is the vision which is, you know, connect everybody intelligently. Make improve life, improve Theglobe, improve everything. That's the target. So very misunderstood company. Because of that, the questions that come to us, I will. You couldn't have done it that way. Somebody must have must have stole this. You must have done all of this stuff. Now is it all done because of your political targets? Most likely. But that's not for me to say. What I can tell you is that we get these questions relating to Trust and Weiwei and its lack of understanding. You fear what you don't know, right? And so what what we've embarked on a campaign over the last 12 months is called trust and transparency or open this and transparency. And the reason for that is you know, we're a technology company. 80,000 people on RND half the companies in our Indian where technologists we talked to the CTO, the technical officer of telecom companies. That's where we make our money. Suddenly we have to understand we have to talk to journalists and podcasters and K. Wells and the government and the this and the
Andrew Grill: 28:04
that. All these crazy questions you're asking. We didn't know that. You tell us how many d be well, you know the answer that immediately right now you tell us what you're doing Noise. This is now a political noise and you can't really attenuate that very, very
Paul Scanlan: 28:16
it's a challenge. So that's that's the problem, The most difficult part of the part of the questions that I get from generally the industry.
Andrew Grill: 28:22
The question about
Paul Scanlan: 28:23
five G so the most is really relating to the B two B industry because they sort of settled on the B to see stuff. They've understood that it's an efficiency video data throughput terribly important, reduced churn keep customers clear. That's the business they understand. But the question really now comes around too well, okay, so we can transform into. So
Andrew Grill: 28:44
how do
Paul Scanlan: 28:44
we do that? Well, the first thing is mindset, right? You probably got in an organisation. Let's take a simple organisation of 1000 people. There's probably a lot of engineers in there, probably a lot of B to C marketing people. But just now I've told you, manufacturing health, Let's take transport and energy. Let's talk about renewables. Perhaps. Do you have ah, VP of each of those in your company? Probably not. And if you did, did you take the doctor from the hospital and employ him? Yes, I did. But does he know how to run health business from with a peanut? Probably not. You see, there's a lot of challenges, so the 1st 1 is understanding the business opportunity. The KP eyes, the company direction, the DNA of the company hiring the talent haven't talked about technology. That's the first thing you need. So you need organisational transformation. You need to think that this is the business opportunity, a little bit of faith, but we've demonstrated those use cases and they work on these industries, at least half of them, half a dozen of them understand that five g can do things for me so that bits gone. So now the question is so how do I do it, Paul? What should I do first? You know that. So help me with these arteries and I think that's the reason. One reason I'm here in the UK is to set up this way. What we've already set it up. It wasn't set up by May set up last year, but this five g innovation and experienced centre and what we would like to do is we'd like to try and invite lots of different partners and telecom companies and industry players, and perhaps academics and other people to come in there with ideas. And we want to demonstrate and prove the EU's case together with the telecom operated together with the industry, want to transform and then take that to market because that's industrialisation off a product of, you know, we copy it here and why don't the UK Well UK said we trust you so carry on doing business here and therefore will invest here in the UK given the Brexit opportunity means that they have an opportunity here to try and do things in a different way, perhaps more local homegrown ideas here. No UK is already surging ahead in renewables and things like that. It still has a very good manufacturing sector. The health care sector is a challenge for every country and not just not just the UK, So there's a lot of good reasons why we feel that the UK ought to be the place where we start this pioneering work so
Andrew Grill: 30:56
quick. Fire round as is the practical futurist podcast. What are three things at Lister's Khun, due this week to take advantage of five G,
Paul Scanlan: 31:02
I ask you, a telecom operated deploy five G now for him for you because if he does, he's probably going to reduce thie energy consumption. You should buy a five g phone. The reason you should is because it's going to be more efficient. It is using your technologies, which are better, faster, smarter, cheaper. But they are more green. But perhaps the most important one would be how about we turn off all this two and three D stuff, right? Because those things are terribly energy consuming and okay, I get it that, you know, in developing countries, I've got X number of 1,000,000 people they're still using to ji just to text. I understand that in the er pose a dollar, but you know, is riding our CEO said downstairs Ahh five g handset. Last year was $300. That means during the course of this year, four g handsets of $20. How do we get a low cost device and everybody's hand? Because if they are, then a couple of things happen with this thing called smartphone. People can transform. You want to know? Farmer wants to know what the cost of the West, the witches or the rices with the next storm is coming or the right fertiliser or how fertilise or how to do this? He gets information instantly. You don't get that over an SMS easily right? You don't get that over a feature phone. You don't get efficiencies from three G and to JI, so they oughtta be removed. So if everybody could turn around now and say I want 05 slash four g handset that would transform things and head things in the right direction
Andrew Grill: 32:23
My pleasure. And thank you for listening to the practical Futurist podcast. You confined all of our previous shows at futurists dot London on DH. If you like what you've heard on the show, please consider subscribing via your favourite podcast staff. So you never miss an episode. You can find out more about Andrew on DH. How he helps corporate Navigator disruptive digital world with keynote speeches on DH. See sweet workshops at futurist dot London until next time. This has Bean, the practical futurist podcast.aul. Thank you so much for your time, I really enjoyed it. My pleasure. And thank you for listening to the practical Futurist podcast. You confined all of our previous shows at futurists dot London on DH. If you like what you've heard on the show, please consider subscribing via your favourite podcast staff. So you never miss an episode. You can find out more about Andrew on DH. How he helps corporate Navigator disruptive digital world with keynote speeches on DH. See sweet workshops at futurist dot London until next time. This has Bean, the practical futurist podcast.
Paul Scanlan: 32:57
My pleasure. A
Outro: 32:57
Thank you for listening to the practical Futurist podcast. You confined all of our previous shows at futurist.london If you like what you've heard on the show, please consider subscribing via your favourite podcast staff. So you never miss an episode. You can find out more about Andrew on DH. How he helps corporate Navigator disruptive digital world with keynote speeches on DH. See sweet workshops at futurist dot London until next time. This has been, the practical futurist podcast.