Embracing Hope and Renewal in the Fight Against Addiction w/ Louis Alvey

When the weight of addiction intersects with the strength of faith, an intense and deeply personal battle emerges. This is the journey my colleague, Lewis Alvey, and I navigate in our latest God Attachment Healing Podcast. Lewis, a mental health professional with over a decade of experience, joins me in a conversation that peels back the layers of shame and isolation that often plague Christians grappling with addiction. Together, we shed light on the complexities of recovery, from the recognition of the problem to the hopeful steps toward transformation, all within the framework of our spiritual beliefs.

The path to overcoming addiction is rarely walked alone, and our discussion reveals the importance of community and connection—elements that can be as healing as they are vital. We delve into the role of various support groups and the potential for church communities to extend a hand in this journey. The raw and honest experiences we share underscore the emotional toll addiction takes, not just on the afflicted but also on the family and friends who stand by them. Their stories of perseverance and compassion become powerful testaments to the human spirit and the transformative power of hope.

As we wrap up, we take a moment to reflect on the broader implications of our dialogue, the intersection of forgiveness, redemption, and the gospel's message of grace. It's a reminder that these tough conversations, while challenging, are necessary and can ultimately lead to healing. For anyone touched by addiction or seeking solace in faith, this episode stands as a beacon of understanding and encouragement, inviting listeners to find strength in vulnerability and renewal in their faith journey with us.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

Alright, everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. As you know, we have been making a couple of changes not big changes, but just some new direction when I introduce the podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:20

I'm especially blessed today because I have my good friend, lewis Alvey. Lewis is my neighbor, is my coworker and is my friend. We are talking today about addictions and classmate. That's right. We just there's another part of life that you can do, that's true. Yeah. So and now podcast guests Look at this. We're looking for all of those connections. So I like it. So I'm excited about today's podcast because we're talking about faith and addictions and I don't think I've done a podcast on this. So when I was thinking about I think we were having a conversation and it came up something about addictions and I was like you know what? We never really talked about that and I've never had anyone and that's one of your passions. And I said, well, we already talk enough anyways, why don't we just record it and put it out on the podcast?

Speaker 3: 1:14

right, so it makes sense You'll have a lot of editing ahead of you, our conversations meander and go. I enjoy them, but I don't know that it's clean material for podcasts. It will be. It will be good, yeah, yeah, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:28

So, louis, why don't you tell us the audience, a little bit about your background? We're going to talk about addictions, so the audience likes to know, okay, who are we talking to? And there we know some information, my personal relationship with you. But now how can you introduce yourself to the audience?

Speaker 3: 1:46

Hi audience. I'm Louis Sam's neighbor Now so I guess professional kind of resume leading up to this entered the mental health field, been in the cat back kind of capacity for the past.

Speaker 3: 1:59

I think it's over 15 years now well yeah, in various and I'll say coming into like a call addictions, I was reluctant right I was like I kept feeling a pole but I had other ideas for myself professionally and but early on was it was in some ways heavy handed, pushed in that direction. But then was one of those experiences where it resonated with me and then, once I saw it, and I saw it prevalence of it as well. I couldn't unsee it, and so now for good or bad.

Speaker 3: 2:29

Most of the way I approach mental health is through that lens of addiction right. And the things it has, like a very familiar peer recovery program would say, the Hertz habits and hangups.

Speaker 3: 2:42

And so my catchphrase, which I probably stole from Steve Nielsen, dr Nielsen's amazing guy yeah was everybody's got something right, and so whether it's a DSM recognized and cluster of criteria that we can diagnose, or if it's something that we elevate to levels of higher importance or consume more of our kind of cognitive bandwidth and that's, I think, a theme I'll come back to a little bit there is something that that we do. Then how I tie that in and how I understand that kind of from a faith or spiritual aspect is Calvin was our hearts are perpetual idol factories right, yeah.

Speaker 3: 3:23

And so in my mind, again that's, I see that, especially in our field, as being true and true to this idea of addictions, or everybody's got something that they, maybe they're holding on to or maybe they're again elevating to a place and level of importance and it's taking up more of their time and capacity than we know as Christians at all.

Speaker 1: 3:44

Yeah, and it really does. At least it feels like too many people struggle with addiction, that it controls their lives, right, it really dictates a lot of what they do. And I'm just curious because I don't think I've necessarily maybe asked this particular question, but typically when we go into the counseling field, we have a hard for an area where we ourselves have experienced hurt, or where someone close to us has experienced hurt, or just something where our skills line up well with meeting that that need. So for you, when you think about addictions, like was there, is there a personal background story there, with someone addicted to something or how did your heart Well?

Speaker 3: 4:24

I think we all have our addiction, so but, I didn't learn that.

Speaker 3: 4:27

To the other end, in my lesser Christlike moment when I was entering into the field foring into psychology, I said I just want to understand what people think. I want to understand why we do the things that we do. And at the time a lot of that for me was well, I want to dive heavy into psychological research. When do a lot of these type of things and I think God had and allowed that in my heart, that desire which I would argue is ungodly at the time because it was a lot of pride baked into that I want to know Ultimately to show well, this is, this is how that looks. Yes.

Speaker 3: 5:02

This and through the model of addiction that I relate here closely to, I think it makes, it helps me understand, and I think when I interact with people and we share that space together, it helps give them a greater understanding of as well. Well, that's why I'm here. Also, I can recognize I'm stuck and these are the contributing factors to why I'm being stuck. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:26

Yeah, and you know, for Christians I don't know if it's a different layer Do you see a difference between how Christians manage addictions versus those who are not Christian? You know, we work. We work in a Christian setting, but it seems like there's maybe little difference between how both Christians and non-Christians manage addictions or deal with addictions.

Speaker 3: 5:48

I'll say, and I'm sure we'll come back to this as well that's a trait, or yeah, of Christians with addiction is excessive. Shame, right, because there's. I should be better than this, or even questioning faith. I can't possibly be a Christian and have these things, these attachments, this misaligned affection you know, so, if anything, I'm not saying Christians are worse off, right.

Speaker 3: 6:19

I'm saying that that that con concept of shame, the things that surround that, I think are more prevalent maybe, or maybe even more intense in religious circles, and that's. I think it does come down to the individual, as you know, and so much of what group or culture they're in and what their faith and their, their belief system, kind of how it addresses that. So in all of the upbringing to like what was I taught that? How does God look at these you?

Speaker 3: 6:53

know, these kind of things so yeah all of that goes into it, but I think, unfortunately, but then also I know there's such redeeming qualities about as well. I don't want to make it sound like it's just you know, those poor Christian addicts, but yeah, that that heavy component of shame oftentimes accompanies or is more maybe intense or prevalent with Christians as they're struggling with their addiction.

Speaker 1: 7:15

That's true, yeah, yeah. And you know, when I was thinking about this particular episode, I was thinking about what verses are there that we've referenced that are true, but maybe some people have a hard time understanding. And I thought about second Corinthians 517, and the verse basically is right being a new creation. If there's anyone in Christ, therefore, he's a new creation. All things have passed away, behold, all things have become new. And there's that, that element.

Speaker 1: 7:42

And I feel it sounds like with Christians who are addicted to something kind of have that shame based approach because, well, if I'm a Christian, shouldn't all of this be passed away? Right, shouldn't this be all gone? And you know, it's interesting too, because with Christians who grew up in the church, it seems like they have that struggle and that shame much more dynamic and stronger in their lives. Those who maybe come to Lord afterwards, they now experience Christ in a new way. So everything that they've done prior to their relationship with Christ, it seems to greatly diminish once they come to Christ.

Speaker 1: 8:27

And I don't know if you've seen that I grew up in the church, so I know that those who grew up in there there's a standard that they're called to live by. Hey, you've been given more to who much is given, much is expected. So they kind of have this narrative of I need to keep that going. So when they mess up, it's all on the worst ever, with new believers who maybe come to the Lord later down the line. For them it's that was my life, I was it, I was all of these things, and now the Lord has changed me. So then you could see that 180, but I don't know, have you seen that? Is there a difference?

Speaker 3: 9:00

there that you also the former expert in the field that I like to quote the most. I mean to my wife right.

Speaker 3: 9:05

Yeah, in the mental health field prior to me she would 100% agree with that. Like she says that there is, there are things that are attached, or again this Oftentimes unhealthy belief system that comes with people that have grown up Christian advice, someone who Was saved in an older age, maybe in their teens or early adulthood, and especially saved out of addiction, because they have a different, I think, perspective or a perspective on Freedom and grace. Right, because, again I was, I was completely lost and until I was plucked from that until my eyes were open.

Speaker 3: 9:43

I was you know, no chance in the world of going to heaven and no chance in the world of a lot of things especially. With all the overlaying Kind of outlook that a lot of people with addiction have. So I'll quote Amanda and say, yeah, she would absolutely be. In some ways From our talks about this she sees it as being more hopeful, right, like there can be more hope and more Radical acceptance of that grace.

Speaker 3: 10:14

Whereas yeah, someone who has. I feel like I'm talking about growing up in a Christian household like baggage, and I don't mean it that way saying some of those things you articulated that are baked in that we can't. We have a hard time reconciling yeah, they can't. I think it can make it much more complicated and Make it more difficult in some ways, hmm, to understand and really embrace that freedom.

Speaker 1: 10:36

Embrace, yeah, absolutely, and you know to your point about Not looking at that past or growing up in a Christian home being seen as baggage, because there's a lot of pros to it. But I think the cons are different. They're still there. You know it's not perfect and you know I would say that I grew up in mostly a healthy Christian church. But as I got older I start to understand things differently and I just didn't know how to, how, to see myself not meeting the standard. So it was this expectation of I need to be this way and if I wasn't, I was just a complete failure. So I think that's kind of speaks to the shame component that we've been discussing but ultimately correct me from wrong.

Speaker 1: 11:16

Addiction is about coping with the stressor. Or is there more to it, right? So if I'm addicted to something, I'm using that to cope with the pain, with some form of stress, and if it's been my go-to for years and years and years, which is typically kind of what happens, then why would I let go of something that's helped me cope with the stressors of life? But what is addiction? That's just kind of I was gonna try to get back to you and say, yeah, well work, your licensed clinical mental health practitioners.

Speaker 3: 11:48

So when we go to our diagnostic manual, where do you find the word addiction? We don't right, so not that that's wrong. I think some people think of it as an antiquated term. I think it's very. It can be helpful and healthy in a lot of ways to give life. Yeah, yeah, but DSM 5 we're now 5 TR Is going to use different use disorders. Well, so we'll say what chemicals specifically.

Speaker 3: 12:12

Yeah so substance use disorders and then specified alcohol, you know opioids different things like that and and I think that there's utility in that criteria, so I'm not in one camp or the other. I think there's a lot that we can Utilize and it is helpful for us to do so. We'll start with Diagnostic criteria from the manual and those fall into. We can yeah, if I can, if I can, a clean real quick. It's. It has a lot to do with level of impairment of your functioning and From then trying to our to figure out how to articulate that, because you know when you're with a client that they could read the DSM if they wanted to. Yeah, so how do we break this into? Maybe?

Speaker 3: 12:54

an analogy or something that's helpful.

Speaker 3: 12:56

I look at like we have Cognitive and emotional bandwidth right like you do the internet's couldn't come through a cable and that bandwidth is taken up by different things throughout any given day, and so, as different areas of that bandwidth are consumed again, areas of functioning Relationships, things like that, those are the criteria through which we look at the severity of the what we'd call addiction, or we'll stay with substances, substance use disorder. So it appears things like our relationships, our ability to find and hold occupations, legal right that's, and that's a helpful one too, because we do, as a society, have a legal like A legal system with laws and things in place, and it can be helpful in that.

Speaker 3: 13:46

That's a whole. I could go off on a whole other Well yeah drug ports and everything else. Yeah, but stay focused looks all right. So that's that criteria and again, not to abandon that. But when we talk about addictions, again we're not gonna find that in the DSM. So how would we define addictions? I would say you take a lot of those same components and say Addictions typically think of as like behavioral things like gambling or pornography, anything like that.

Speaker 3: 14:13

I would say similar criteria, but we don't have them recognized by a state of mind, we don't have them recognized by a statistical manual yet. But again, taking up that bandwidth right it's taking up the more I am either. Oh, and also another amount would. Another criteria would be frequency, intensity and volume of use whatever I'm using.

Speaker 3: 14:33

So I think that some of that can translate over to more of our what we call behavioral addictions as well and so kind of similar look at it is how much of your bandwidth is being taken up with this and not just use of whatever. That is a very common one. Frequent is Pornography, so not just the act of viewing pornography, but how much time again, cognitive bandwidth is being taken away and devoted to that.

Speaker 3: 14:56

And then again, not just around that singular use or multiple use within one day, but, as we talked about before, the guilt, shame especially associated with that, the time and energy that you spend acquiring or thinking about acquiring or think about the next time that you're gonna engage in whatever that is. So all of that bandwidth, the more, the more and more of whatever Substance or behavior or interaction consumes that bandwidth that you have, then the more and more you are addicted to something. Yeah, but yeah and and people don't like that word yeah meaning.

Speaker 1: 15:31

I mean it has the obviously the negative connotation to it, but Some people feel relieved that it is and some people don't.

Speaker 1: 15:41

Right, and again I go back to kind of just the upbringing of the whole idea and this happens in and a meetings right where it's like I'm so-and-so, I'm an alcoholic, is that kind of what the verbiage? So it's one of those things like am I really an alcoholic? Am I really an addicted porn user? Am I really a drug at, like all of these different things and and For some it's freedom like okay, there's a reason why this is happening.

Speaker 1: 16:06

There's a name to put to this right and for others, it's like the shame gets reinforced with I'm this and sometimes and again, sometimes that becomes their identity. However, I haven't experienced that, seen with people that they make that their identity, addiction their identity. But I mean what? What have you seen it? Has that been a pro for people to identify with being addicted to something?

Speaker 3: 16:32

it? Yeah, so it depends on the individual and Okay so many other variables about what makes that person that person. But for many people it's helpful to have that right because, rather than then be this kind of maybe ambiguous or non-tangential sort of like, Struggle I've been going through. I now have alcoholism and I can put a finger on that and I've I can almost personify it.

Speaker 3: 16:55

So when I'm struggling with something, I'm not just beating the air I've got something that I can point to, especially with alcoholism, there's, you know, decades and decades of literature and a community's been phenomenal and on the peer recovery side of stuff too, for that and again for that kind of outlet that we're talking about. To your other point, and maybe not necessarily conversely, but that maybe the other side of the same point is it can be crippling or it can be in many ways shaming or again reinforce you know, elements or actual shame that's already there and be problematic for that person. I think. I think, regardless of where that person starts off, there's like an evolution that happens. So if.

Speaker 3: 17:35

I'm not willing to say I'm an addict, I'm an alcoholic at some point in time they're gonna embrace. It naturally happens. Naturally happens where I'm an addict and then sometimes that's where they stay and they're like again. I finally put a face to this thing, I've got a name for it. And sometimes the evolution continues. Where I'm still, I'm in recovery.

Speaker 3: 17:54

This is a thing that this was a part of me is certainly with behavioral addictions. They're like but I'm not. I'm not an addict. I've got so many years of being free from this, so so recovering, addict, right?

Speaker 1: 18:06

Is that kind of the words that are used?

Speaker 3: 18:08

Like I'm a, recovering addict More often times now. Yeah, I mean I'm so and so in recovery Again. That is more kind of forward facing and powering type of language and so.

Speaker 3: 18:18

And then there's some individuals that would say they don't adhere to this disease, chronic disease model, that it's something that's always there and you're always susceptible to that through whatever mechanisms they work through, that at one point in time they might have had an addiction or had a substance use disorder, but in the future they don't feel that they're susceptible to that and they're free from that, and I want to encourage that mindset.

Speaker 1: 18:39

Right, right yeah.

Speaker 3: 18:41

That's the one I'm the least comfortable with, because we know how the brain works. So we know how the body remembers things.

Speaker 1: 18:46

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 18:47

And so that's the one I'm least comfortable with. But I wouldn't take that away from someone if that's helpful for them. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 18:54

But that mindset is, I would say it's also the least scientifically supported, because I think anything that's happened, like any other injury, once you've had an injury you're at greater risk for that. I think of addictions similar to TBI's. We've seen a lot of wonderful overlap in the veteran community about how TBI's and things like PTSD have overlapping symptoms and the kind of chronicity of each of those two. So in a lot of ways I look at not exactly, but look at a lot of aspects of someone with someone who's suffered from addiction who some people would say have an addictive brain, right Like just the brain knows and remembers.

Speaker 3: 19:35

That may have healed from that, but again we're potentially one. We'll call it relapse from returning, re-engaging those neuro pathways and being right back where we were. So that sounds really gloom and doom.

Speaker 3: 19:51

But what I want to say is like, regardless of how that person enters and maybe even exits or stays in that continuum of addiction, recovery and those things, that's hopeful right, Because the non-hopeful part is never entering it, never raising to a level of awareness where this is something that I'm addressed and a lot of people spend much of their life like that. So, to save us from gloom and doom, just as a spectrum is good man.

Speaker 1: 20:15

No, no, I'm just trying to think and see what kind of questions would come up for someone who is going through that right now as a Christian, as a Christian podcast that's addressing attachment. One sign that I saw was that addiction has to do. You talked about bandwidth, emotional bandwidth, mental bandwidth, and there's this other aspect of relationship bandwidth. Right, that addiction is a form of trying to recover connection, that it is a loss of connection and because I don't feel connected, I rather not feel anything or feel something, anything right, kind of this idea, and it's just the feeling. It's the feeling of connection.

Speaker 3: 21:03

So I don't know if that's. Let me go after it from this angle. Dr Lemke, Stanford psychiatrist, and she's phenomenal.

Speaker 1: 21:12

My boy Louis super well researched, by the way, I love that's why he's here.

Speaker 3: 21:18

So, and she's got great, great content out there, she, oh, this is a plug. So when they listened to this podcast, Dr Andrew. Huberman, who we all know and love, we do, and Dr Lemke did a wonderful podcast on addiction and it's steeped in all it's like kind of the child of all of the years of research and stuff. She's on there. So and anyone that knows Huberman knows dopamine, right. So she talks heavily about dopamine and it's this she calls it the pleasure pain teeter, totter, Right. So yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:49

So more on one side or the other, and we're always, in all areas, looking for homeostasis, right, and our body wants to return to homeostasis. So an increase, you can expect at least an equal amount of decrease or movement in the other direction as well. So so what, louis? Great question. An individual will stay with substances and I think we can expand from there if necessary. Someone who uses alcohol, it's very common. Lots of research, lots of people experience things around. We'll stick there, Use alcohol and then experiences that up and that down, right All of the neurotransmitters, not least of which, on the forefront is dopamine, happening and then comes back on the other side. And now again, we've created a neuropath. We've created some sort of if you stick with Lemke pleasure, pain, teeter, totter, and so the brain and body remembers. And the next time that I need, or I feel the need to engage in pleasure and or remove pain, because it's not always just a pursuit of pleasure.

Speaker 1: 22:56

It's a pursuing pleasure or alleviating pain.

Speaker 3: 22:58

And this is where I kind of go off the deep in my own way, but again steeped in research, hayes, tonig and Levine living a lot of stuff over the past 10 to 15 years. On this steeping a lot of from the problematic pornography side of the house is there's some sort of I call an activating event or trigger that happens and that leads to a craving and leads to use. Hmm, and then let me go so.

Speaker 1: 23:24

I go late, eighties and nineties, we would say hey, we've got to eradicate this drug problem.

Speaker 3: 23:29

Yeah let's look at the behavior. They're smoking crack, they're smoking alcohol. Just say no, just stop it.

Speaker 1: 23:35

I said oh right, remember that one that was a video often used in our classes. Yeah, it was. I mean it was for fun, but still, that was the message that people were receiving.

Speaker 3: 23:45

Just say, just say no, we're saying well, there's this negative outcome, this bad behavior that's maladaptive coping, that's happening. Just stop doing it. Yeah, and surprise, it didn't work right so again, we're talking four decades worth of if you got it all up of study. Specific to this and the model that I love and that I adhere to is there's an activating event trigger right.

Speaker 3: 24:08

And then there is psychological pain or discomfort Right, and then I don't know anything about you, but I know you're an American, sam, and I know we despise discomfort right, so much so that I don't want to get on my car to go. Get my food I'll go through a drive-thru. No better yet I'll call uber eats. Soon we're gonna have robots, every thing. This right like it's what you visited earlier.

Speaker 3: 24:34

Yeah, so we despise discomfort, right? So, and that's on, that's on just feeling cold or not wanting to be inconvenienced. Talk about significant psychological discomfort, right? So many individuals that End up having what maybe call a full fledged addiction, like you there, in the grips of this thing, trauma is somewhere in their past.

Speaker 3: 24:55

Yeah so think about, from a severity scale. You know, psychological trauma that you haven't worked through, you haven't dealt with the grief you haven't gone through yet and the constant need pull to avoid that pain, to avoid that Pain. So maybe it's a flashback, maybe it's seeing someone, maybe it's the myriad of things that can trigger a negative Psychological pain reaction or discomfort reaction.

Speaker 3: 25:22

And then my brain knows oh, we don't like discomfort, we need to avoid that. Avoidance pieces is key. And so what does it do? Well, I know how to get us there. All right, at least know how to make it stop for a while. And so let's get back to alcohol. So I'm gonna drink, I can go to the bar, right, I can do this. And then the insidious part of that is is then the addiction becomes the Pain pleasure teeter-totter, because I don't know how frequently you've been like just blackout drunk in your life, sam, just kidding, but but you typically physically don't feel well afterwards, and then, when you're up in the morning, all of the things that you were drinking away.

Speaker 3: 26:03

Mm-hmm are still. They are usually compounded even more right. So now we have to deal with that reality. And then this is where that shame element typically enters in Is during that avoidance piece, if it's not already there, because now, now there is something wrong with me. Now looking, how could I do? You know all and turn on all the things, the horrible and start so lower and then that feeds it right.

Speaker 3: 26:24

Yeah, it's this negative, insidious loop of, and that's why that's why I was like, well, it's not really. Just I want to get high or just want to get drunk. It that usually leaves a long time ago and it's just.

Speaker 1: 26:37

I need to end off the pain. So now just becomes a habit. It was part of their daily life.

Speaker 3: 26:42

Yeah, yeah, you know again thinking about that bandwidth, it only consumes more and more.

Speaker 3: 26:47

Right and only consumes more and more, and the more shameful I am or feel I shouldn't say I feel Um the less I'm gonna have interactions with relationships, the less I'm gonna care about job, the less I'm going to Again, we're gonna go Adam and Eve, so we're gonna sew fig leaves. We're gonna distance ourselves from God because, well, he's perfect and especially as Christians will look what he saved me from. How could you know what I mean? And then yeah, and then we're just hitting that loop over and over again. And so not from a DSM criteria standpoint. That's why I like the term or idea of addiction Is because I think now, the more that we under understood it and we owe a lot of that to neuroscience on the past several years is, um, it really can be more things like if we look at it from, limkey would say that plain pleasure, pleasure, teeter, totter, um, and how we understand that.

Speaker 3: 27:37

You know, dopamine system, that is um. That's a good point too. So the dopamine is, it's not even I'm not even using at that point. This was, this was early on, right after I got out of school right and I be heroin drug user man. Young girl.

Speaker 3: 27:52

Oh goodness, um. She said, louis, I relapse a week before I ever put a needle in my Hand and again raised in the 80s. I was like, no, you're only an addict when you're injecting. And she walked me through the time and then further research and study on my own was like she's. She was adequately explaining. This whole dopaminergic situation she found herself in is the.

Speaker 3: 28:16

It's anticipation of both directions. It's the anticipation of pain, because our brain Thank you, dr Huberman is a massively efficient prediction machine. I know it's coming. I have to believe that. I know what's coming, that I can. Who wouldn't say this out loud? But I, I can tell the future right. I know that that interaction is going to leave me hurting. I know that, um, those people are gonna think this way about me. I know that I've got this criminal record. Now, as most people struggle with addiction do, no one in society is gonna care about me, so it's not even necessarily being confronted with the pain.

Speaker 3: 28:49

It's the anticipation of the psychological pain which can kick this in, and then that dopamine Back to our earlier reference of that young lady was. I don't even need to stick to the middle of my arm. It is the anticipation of getting there. It's calling the dealer. It's wondering when he's gonna show up. It's it's scrambling to get the money. It's doing all these things, yeah, because we know that alcohol and other chemicals and substances like that, uh, we never get that initial high. That's why they call it chasing the dragon window heroine, opioid users, because that, whatever that initial high was, whenever we felt that Pete pleasure, they're never able to replicate that.

Speaker 3: 29:27

And so again to, to kind of. I would use this to substantiate my argument for the why this is an accurate model Is because pleasure left a long time ago that high that we say we're chasing or not, we are stuck on the loop, or the that I can say that insidious cycle of avoiding pain.

Speaker 3: 29:46

And anticipating that it's coming and brain stepping in and being like I got us, I'll protect us. I got us, I know how to get us there, and um, and oftentimes it's the. The best thing that happens to someone who's, like I said, this deep in addiction is the anticipation of getting there. It's the drive to the bar, it's the um, yeah, we've got, we've had such a spike in like all the We'll say things around like sexual compulsive disorders.

Speaker 3: 30:14

Or sexual compulsive type behavior, uh, lately, and I think it pays serious credence to this right. Yeah, and so the act of itself, whatever sexual act that they're engaging in um In some way shape or form, is involving them physically, but so much of it is to lead up to it, I mean I can have. I can have people in great detail be like I just I can't delete the app. I've got to stay on whatever app.

Speaker 3: 30:37

That is that is a snapchat, or whether it's an actual app design for, you know, hooking up with people, but it's, it's that little hook that keeps me coming back. So it's not actually the time that I interface with a person or you know, fill whatever, whatever act I'm ultimately going to do, it's all of that build up, it's all that initial dope. I mean that that lead up to it. So sorry, ramble, no no, it's good ways there yeah but that I mean.

Speaker 3: 31:03

again back to how I got here. Well, I Was seeking, in a lot of ways, selfishly and pridefully, I wanted to understand, I want to know, and now I believe, and I've seen enough in my own life and lives of the I don't gosh probably hundreds or thousands of clients I've worked with, to be, like. This is what. This is what's going on. Yeah this is what is happening and this is that insidious cycle that we get pulled into, that we, that we just keep feeding.

Speaker 1: 31:29

Yeah, absolutely no, and I appreciate you sharing the Neuroscience part. Yeah, because I think the question now that becomes even more real is well, god created us this way, you know. God created us to have dopamine and, and dopamine in its proper use, I guess we could say is supposed to be there or Positive things. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Why is the thing that's meant to be good for me dopamine, feeling good right, the pleasure, seeking out, the pleasure in things that are pleasurable. Why do I feel that when I am Addicted to something? Why don't I feel pain in the addiction? But, if I'm understanding you correctly, that is part of the balance is that there's pain and then there's pleasure, and you're using one to get rid of the other, in a sense.

Speaker 3: 32:22

And, like said, oftentimes pleasures left and it's really just that pursuit. That don't mean is the pleasure You're gonna derive from that, it's just a pursuit of that. It's not even there anymore. That yeah. I is not there.

Speaker 1: 32:33

I'm. I thought that was a really good point.

Speaker 3: 32:35

I think to answer. The question too is Well, how could God do this? Why would he create us this way and all? He created everything perfect and in its time, right. And so we're humans and we human it up, you know, and then we, we take it and we, yeah, we, we pervert it in some way, or it's again. It was gonna be a fall too, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:58

And I think that's what. I think that's really what we're, what we're seeing, and I remember someone sharing a long time ago. They said you know what healthy looks like is? What is what we picture before the garden, before the fall and the go.

Speaker 1: 33:10

Yeah, what's unhealthy is everything that followed after that. I mean immediately, you see the impact of it, with Killing able and so on. But the question is what do we? What do we want that to look like? We won't have that here, right, it's gonna be in our perfect bodies when we go to heaven. For those of us who have believed in Christ, that's gonna be our eternal home in our better bodies.

Speaker 1: 33:30

But for now, as Christian counselors and as Christians, how do we help people? So there's people who are listening right now, who are thinking about maybe in addiction that they're currently having and it's affecting their relationship with God. What, what can we share with them that can give them hope? We talked a little bit about that, like you know, maybe defining it in your life, saying that it is an addiction, maybe that can provide the whole good. Maybe it'll cause some shame. How do you deal with the shame that comes after that? So what? What are some? Some words of encouragement, of wisdom they could share with others about how to Attach to God during this difficult time where they feel like God doesn't want to be close to them, like they feel, like you know, they're a failure and that maybe, even if they're not a Christian anymore.

Speaker 3: 34:18

Yeah, because there there was his name's escaped, muted, a TED talk on it, but a gentleman that kind of did a self-study on addiction he had a lot of his family's from the United Kingdom was steeped in this and the quote from him is the opposite of addiction is connection and I'd say that's, that's the one.

Speaker 1: 34:34

There's a lot of truth.

Speaker 3: 34:36

He goes a little bit further than I would with it in some kind of political and social spheres. But there's a lot of truth to that man. Okay, and I would even say the opposite of addiction is community like it's much to talk about community.

Speaker 1: 34:49

And they're eating and all about that. Oh man, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 34:53

There's a big by nature of in virtue of how they're constructed. There's people who often say well, there's no. Where's the data? Where's you know so? I think, I was like, well, they shouldn't exist. You know what I mean. Like, okay, they don't have any peer reviewed published studies, but tell all of the hundreds of thousands of people you know that's not helpful, so anyway, oh, the opposite of addiction is connection or community relationship right.

Speaker 3: 35:18

So addiction does that. It takes more and more of your bandwidth and devotes to it again. The pursuit of the consumption, of the aftermath of Whatever we're engaging in. So one which will be challenging, obviously, especially how far this has progressed, because the more Consumed we are with something, the less we have of other things we lose friendships we lose family members.

Speaker 3: 35:42

There is one that never leaves us, though, and again it would be hard, especially with Probably the compounding shame that's going on, but he's, god's there, like Christ isn't leaving us. So I would say, not just a church answer of like praying more and faith, but that being a Pinnacle of whatever recovery is gonna look like for you, and then, as well, community. I don't know what that community looks like, because there's so many Variants and so many different things that are out there, but there are great things like a, a in a, sex holics, anonymous, celebrate recovery. They have great chapters all over the place here Thomas road, freedom ministries. There are a lot of good things about them.

Speaker 3: 36:24

All of these kind of curriculum driven 12-step peer recovery groups can be good locations. I will caution people and I always do when I sit them out. It's like You're gonna go to a group that's full of hurting people or maybe even full of people who are addicts, right, so it's not necessarily a safe place just to walk in there and assume that everyone's going to be safe, that's true, but they are.

Speaker 3: 36:45

There are great communities and there are great people within those communities and as well as the lives and Relationships that you have or maybe had that were abandoned. Some of them, unfortunately, are not gonna be repaired immediately, so we can take as much time, if not longer, that they took to deconstruct. To demand, yeah, but a large part of it is going to be community.

Speaker 3: 37:04

Yeah and it's going to be. It's going to be again reclaiming a lot of that bandwidth Mm-hmm in that all. Now, if it's chemically related, especially alcohol, alcohol is a drug that you know you can die from withdrawal Most of them. Just you feel like you want to die when you're drawing but alcohol.

Speaker 3: 37:21

So if it is, if for the audience, if it is chemically related, I would say it would definitely worth speaking to a physician or maybe even going to some sort of Crisis stabilization, medical stabilization, if that's on board, but that that can be a hard first step, right, but sometimes a hard first step is enough momentum to keep because it's going to be a long process to like. I don't. That's good to know. I don't.

Speaker 3: 37:45

I don't deceive anybody, like when I talked about like. This is gonna be hard. This is arguably going to be the most difficult thing of your life, but I can tell you it's going to be worth it, because the fact that you're it's reason to your awareness and you're willing to address it means that you can't keep doing this.

Speaker 1: 38:00

Yeah, oh, and actually it's like family or people who are close to those who are addicted that kind of make that push for them to seek help right, or they reinforce that, they become kind of, I Guess, reinforce just that behavior by either allowing it to happen, I don't know what's, I guess what's the rule for someone who is has a friend or family member, because I think that's, that's difficult to do like how do I tell you know my dad, how do I tell my friend, how do I tell my sibling that they have a problem?

Speaker 1: 38:32

because usually, from what I understand addicts, they don't see it as a problem initially.

Speaker 3: 38:39

So what you don't want to do is. Yeah yeah, give both sides. Yeah, For some it depends on, like, the progressive nature and whatever that person's relationship is. Because there's just so many possibilities, I'll give a generality.

Speaker 3: 38:54

Yeah and hopefully we can derive things from that, and that is if you see someone who is Fully immersed in whatever addiction this is going on. They're probably pretty isolated, right, right, again, various stages, but general generalizing here, just to be able to See their humanity and right be like, and it's that delicate balance of being transparent, being honest and being compassionate, right, yeah, and so I'm gonna get on this soapbox to me. I'm like gosh, why does not every church just have like an addiction recovery program, if not Christians? Who is better equipped to say I see you, I know you're hurt, I know, you know, I know I've hurt, I know of being captive, I know of being shackled to something again, what thing that is, you know, god only knows. But so, man, yeah, anyway, sorry, and get back on my soapbox and just turn it back to being the church man but um oh sorry.

Speaker 3: 39:55

So that individual that believes or recognizes that someone they know and care about is again meeting them there In helping walking with them. So so much can be done With going with someone to that appointment or going with someone to that first meeting that they're going to or are going with.

Speaker 3: 40:15

It's difficult because oftentimes people that are in like, fully immersed in an addiction, it's, it's, it has kind of taken over that chronicity and More of a disease model mindset. That's not the person you knew before. Right, and you can think about that. Helps. You can think about that too. It's like you're not talking to Lewis, you're not talking to your friend. That addiction has consumed much, if not all of that bandwidth.

Speaker 3: 40:41

So, that's, that's the lens through which they're viewing life, and so it can be. It can be really hard, that can be, but that might be a good first step. For Someone who loves or is family member, friend of someone with addiction is to say, hey, if I want to, if I want a hope of getting them back, then it might be a lot of hard first steps. Yeah, but so that's what it is. You see the humanity. Have compassion and be honest with them, right.

Speaker 1: 41:09

That's good. That's good and for the person who is wanting to trust God during this time. Obviously, there's plenty of examples in scripture where God has did a bunch of 180s where change people's lives.

Speaker 1: 41:23

You have a lot of testimonies, we have our own testimony, people in the audience have their own testimonies. So it's, it's possible, and I think somewhere along the way in the midst of all that there's this loss of hope, and If you could just speak a little bit to that, you know how does someone gain hope Throughout this process, because it seems never-ending. Yeah, I don't know what the turning point is, but we touched a lot on connection and community. You know, and I think even part of the AA statements is kind of like this belief in God, or I guess they use the word higher power and so on.

Speaker 1: 41:58

But for those of us who are believers, you know Oftentimes that that loss of hope is the hardest thing to get back, and I'm just curious to hear your thoughts like how, how do people Regain that hope? What? Where do you see the shift in the process of counseling or in their stage of life, that they're in that and it's boom.

Speaker 3: 42:19

That's now they're hopeful. That's the question saying you're good podcast. That is the question, and if I had that answer I would freely share it with everyone like a cure to cancer man. Yeah, but you hit on the crux of it is hope. As long as there's hope, or as long as we have the capacity to hope, because sometimes it again the addictions consuming everything, then it's possible. And that's what I would say to anyone struggling with it. Anyone that's with someone that's struggling through it is long man. We choked up, sam oh yeah.

Speaker 3: 42:51

Yeah, as long as there's air in their lungs, right, god can still move and as long as, as long as we can continue to strengthen ourselves To help others, have a pass to help others and there's always hope, so All right. What does it actually mean? All right so yeah, find out what that is but, again.

Speaker 3: 43:14

That's that, approaching that person with Compassion and humanity and being honest with them, yeah, saying what is it? You didn't wake up one day as an eight-year-old man by the time I'm 24. I want to have a criminal rap sheet as long, as my arm and be have stolen and pilfered from so many people in my life that everyone's cut me off, done things like unspeakable things to people into myself.

Speaker 3: 43:42

Mm-hmm just to get this, whatever it is, just get this alcohol, just to get this stuff to cook up and shoot my arm. No one did that, so maybe it is speaking to that part of them, that part of them that's still alive. It's good.

Speaker 1: 43:56

Yeah, I, you know to your point about just kind of like wolf, that that struck a nerve somewhere. And you know, we're talking about hope and I'm thinking now About my mom and my uncle and one of my uncles. He was just having to drink. I I'd never Got drunk, I've never drank excessively, yeah, you know, and One of the reasons why is because I remember seeing my uncle was so drunk and I hated how they were around me, mm-hmm, and there were years where you know, they were in and out of jail and kind of doing all these different things and and I told my mom, mom, stop, stop, stop helping them or stop doing this stuff doing that.

Speaker 1: 44:37

So I was telling her and my mom said, yeah, right, yeah, it does get you. She's like I'm gonna keep praying and I'm gonna keep hoping for him and things are gonna change. And you know, today I can share that monk was changed and you know it's it was crazy because he had said that before like there's this aspect of no, I'm change, I'm new, and then go back to it. I felt disappointed that it happened.

Speaker 1: 45:03

But I remember that, not just hope for the person, but how those around the person need to hold out that hope, because they get tired, yeah, of wanting a hope, wanting to change, and then you have the people around them who can still instill that hope. So it just reminded me of that and I'm thankful for that and I'm glad that you touched on that and and that hope. And I think that this is gonna be helpful to listeners because that is a powerful thing, because sometimes we feel like giving up on the people around us and I think it just Re-emphasizes the point of the gospel right, christ came and died for us in spite of, well, how we treated him, and now you know we have the blessing to be able to minister to others by seeing what he's done in our lives and I just man thank you so much for sharing from your experience and your insights and bringing the data, which I love.

Speaker 1: 45:59

You know I love that and this is. I think this is gonna be a blessing and I appreciate you as a person, as a friend. This is fun and this was good, so do another one. Absolutely yeah okay, cool, remember the contract. Yes, yeah 50%, that's what we agree on.

Speaker 3: 46:17

Yeah, well, no, I appreciate you having me on, appreciate you being willing to approach this topic right. Especially often tonight's religious circle, it's not one that we want to do. So, it's kind of courageous you doing it.

Speaker 1: 46:35

Thank you guys.