Exploring Mentorship and its Role in Men's Spiritual and Personal Growth

When we consider the blueprint of a man's soul, we often overlook the silent architects—the mentors who guide us through the labyrinth of life's challenges. Dr. James Honeycutt joins me on a profound exploration of mentorship and its inextricable link to spiritual and personal development for men. We unravel the tapestry of our own experiences to reveal how mentors, from our fathers to our academic guides, have been the weavers of our faith and understanding, especially for those of us who have felt the void of growing up in a fatherless home.

The journey of faith is seldom a straight path—it is a road marked with questions, reconstruction, and the search for authenticity. We recount our personal narratives of shedding military-influenced perceptions of masculinity to embrace diverse male role models who preach Christian nonviolence and pacifism. With Dr. Honeycutt's insights, we navigate the complex dance of deconstructing and reconstructing faith, uncovering the urgent need for strong, present mentors for the younger generation facing a barrage of new societal pressures.

But what does it truly mean to embody a healthy male role model in today's world? This episode delves into the intersection of Stoicism and Christianity, the importance of emotional strength, and the harmonious blend of humility and conviction in leadership. We reflect on how virtues like wisdom, courage, temperance, and justice can shape not just our personal ideals, but also how we perceive and relate to the Divine. Join us as we honor these silent architects and the profound influence they hold in sculpting men of faith, character, and empathy.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

all right, well, thanks everyone. Welcome back to the god attachment healing podcast and we're knocking out hopefully we can knock out two episodes here, but I have my good friend and fellow co-worker, licensed clinical social worker, dr james honeycutt, visited me today and we were talking about the need men have for mentors. What do you think about this topic in general, james? I think it's an important topic.

Speaker 2: 0:34

I know you and I have had conversations about it.

Speaker 2: 0:37

Outside of this, it seems like something that we continue to see again and again come up, especially in research around developmental issues and how fatherless homes or young men growing up without fathers, higher rates of criminal activity and addiction and other things.

Speaker 2: 0:59

But yeah, you can approach this from a number of different ways. Whether you're looking at from a religious perspective, yeah, you can approach this from a number of different ways. Whether you're looking at from a religious perspective, it's one of the things that I remember when I did a training a while back on whether or not individuals who were raised religious stayed in the religion of their family growing up, and one of the biggest significant factors that they found was whether or not the father was involved. Yeah, so if they grow up with strong men in their lives who are active in their faith, it's a much higher likelihood that the children would stay in the faith as well. But oftentimes, you know, you see churches full of women and it's usually women leading a lot of these different areas in ministry and education and stuff, because either the fathers are minimally involved or not involved.

Speaker 1: 1:45

Yeah, yeah, and we have the. We often talk about the three pillars of society. Right, we have the home education system, and then we have the church, and we're seeing that decline in each of those areas. Now you might be asking well, what does this have to do with God, attachment healing?

Speaker 1: 2:00

Well, when you think about God, usually you know, for us, as we look at our fathers, we look at our mothers and, as men, you know, if we don't have involved fathers, emotionally involved fathers, it's hard to see in Scripture.

Speaker 1: 2:14

When we look at parts of Scripture that describe God's goodness, His grace, His mercy, you know things that we typically would associate to mom, but it's those things that we have a difficult time understanding about God in Scripture because we didn't see that with our fathers, and you know. So we might see the truth aspect, the disciplinary aspect of God, and we get it, we understand it, but when it comes to these other aspects that are very important, especially in culture today, we miss it, or a lot of people miss it. So I think that's why we were thinking about this topic. You know why men need strong, godly men in their lives. So mentors. So we were talking not too long ago about people that have influenced us in our lives. So it could be people that we authors, that we read, it could be pastors, it could have been our fathers, could have been many other people, but what do you think were the biggest influences, I guess, so far in your life that you can mention?

Speaker 2: 3:14

Well, it's funny, I know. When we talked about it initially, I just kind of jumped ahead to young adulthood and the men that influenced me then. I have come to believe, though, that maybe there's different seasons of our lives where different men will come into our lives in those seasons, ideally. And I remember, even as a child you know my dad's career military, growing up in the Air Force. You know we lived on different Air Force bases and things like that, and as a child I very much idealized my father and I used to say if I could be half the man my dad is.

Speaker 2: 3:47

You know that'll be something. He was a young father, though, so he was very active with us playing sports. He was still able to do that. You know I can't do that now.

Speaker 2: 3:56

You know. But then when I got older and then I went off to college and I, you know, was a young grad student and therapist and things like that, it was different men that came into my life. So, for example, you and I, when we had spoken before I talked about several professors that really made an impression on me and they were strong Christian men but they were at a different level in their development, not just educationally, but they helped me take it to the next level myself. You know, my dad was great as far as instilling patriotism and morals and hardworking ethics and things like this and basic skills, but he was not, he wasn't anywhere involved in higher education or things that later interested me. So he, you know, obviously we were pretty limited in what we could discuss.

Speaker 1: 4:50

Was he a believer at the time?

Speaker 2: 4:52

He was not. We were really raised and they were agnostic. I think if you asked my parents they would have said that they were Christian. But you know, we would occasionally go to church and things like that, but we moved so much that was part of being in the military and there were years of my life where he was stationed remote assignments, you know, in Alaska or Korea or Portugal or something. So that plays a role as well.

Speaker 2: 5:15

But I think that when I got into college and I was a young Christian, I had just been baptized and became a Christian at the age of 20. So I had a pretty drastic turn in my life at that point as well and seeing these men that came into my life and I mentioned by name when we had talked before but in college and grad school and stuff and just really feeling a lot of gratitude later in life. They were there at that stepping stone when I needed them to be. And I think there are men in our lives and around us if we take the time to look and invest in those relationships, because there's so much wisdom that a lot of these people have. My wife and I were just talking earlier today about how so many people will just resort to chit chat, just basic superficial conversations.

Speaker 1: 6:06

Only for a little bit. I can't leave the small talk for a little bit.

Speaker 2: 6:09

I'm right there with you. I have a low tolerance for that because I'm introverted by nature and so we spend all day listening to people you know talk. So if I'm going to invest in time to do that outside of work, it has to be something like substantial. Yeah, invest in time to do that outside of work.

Speaker 1: 6:25

It has to be something like substantial, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:26

So you know when you can find people like that and there are, you will find those gems if you look for them.

Speaker 1: 6:32

Not just, you know, men, but all people who can really have something to contribute at different stages of our lives yeah, and I wonder did you realize that they were having that type of influence on you at that time, or was it like a reflective piece later on that you're like man? They really were there for me at a very trying time or a very difficult time or a very good time in my development.

Speaker 2: 6:54

That's a great question. I think that I had a suspicion. I had a sneaky suspicion that they were getting past my defenses and affecting me on a core level that I wasn't even fully aware of at the time. But it really kind of germinated later and I realized in retrospect how much they influenced me.

Speaker 2: 7:14

I know I felt a lot of appreciation for it and I expressed it at the time, but everything was so new and a lot of my energy and capacity was just trying to process all these new ideas that I'm being exposed to and this new faith that I had just really embraced in my early 20s and that, I think, took up a lot of my time and energy. So it was later on. I look back and especially when you get older and you're comparing, maybe men that you have in your life to men, that unique men that came along, and you realize just the contrast of just how important they were.

Speaker 1: 7:48

Yeah, yeah, you know you displayed something very. That's part of God attachment healing, which is the compensation theory. And the compensation theory says that whatever you felt you lacked as a child, god fulfills for you. When you come to him later on in life, when you have that reflective piece to him later on in life, when you have that reflective piece, you reflect back on your life, right, and what was I doing? And then you come to the Lord and he just kind of fills those missing pieces in your life. Those who grew up in the church they have what's called a correspondence theory, which is whatever experience they had with their parents. They kind of carry that into adulthood and reflect the same characteristics with God. So if their parents were degrading, harsh, critical, judgmental, then they will grow up and see God as critical, harsh and judgmental. If they had parents who were caring, loving and attentive, then they will see God in that same way. Did you experience God in that way when you came to the Lord later on?

Speaker 2: 8:43

Yeah, experience got in that way when you came to the Lord later on. Yeah, it's funny that you mentioned that, because I think early on I had this naive understanding that I had to. I had to know everything Like. I had to figure it all out. Uh, part of that was because my upbringing and you're a natural study.

Speaker 2: 8:59

You love reading, but again, you know you're talking about the traits that we inherit, pass on, you know, on from our parents to us and things like that. My dad was real strict on grades. He was a good student. He really pressed that in on us to do well in school. But you know, we also had family members that were around us who had anger issues. I was surrounded by men with anger issues and so it made sense that my view of God was kind of a punitive. You better have this figured out. If you step out of line, I'm going to smite you. So it was. Yeah, I joke with people. When I graduated college I'd studied religion and philosophy. My dad asked me at graduation so what did you learn? I said humility, because I was under this ridiculous concept that I was going to grow so holy in my studies that I was going to float across the stage and receive my diploma with this air of holiness halo around me.

Speaker 2: 9:57

So, yeah, I think that that was kind of my conception of God that I came into my early Christian life with, and it was largely based on many of the authority figures that I had known growing up.

Speaker 1: 10:10

And from the so, from the men that you did that start getting involved in your life, did anyone show you like a different part? So you said, growing around angry men, were there men who were caring, intellectual, like, who were the men that were surrounding you around that time Like a character characteristic, wise?

Speaker 2: 10:26

You mean when I got into college?

Speaker 1: 10:27

and older.

Speaker 2: 10:28

Uh, yeah, it was very different than keeping in mind, like I said, you know, when you grow up in a military family and any of your listeners who have ever grown up in like missionary families and military families you kind of become a little um, I don't know, your support system, really becomes just the nuclear family, because my brother and my parents were the only consistent relationships, your friendships and familiar sites and surroundings. They change, you know, pretty frequently. So the male image was really just my dad as far as a consistent male figure in my life and occasionally we would go visit grandparents and stuff, but they were pretty minimally connected and you know uncles and things. But yeah, when I got older I was exposed to a very different type of male presence. You know, professors, like I'd mentioned a little bit before, just their, the things that they had prioritized and just their sense of inner balance that they displayed. You know, and I'd mentioned, I was coming out of the military myself.

Speaker 2: 11:30

After high school I went in the military and then I went to college because I couldn't afford to go to college before that. And so here's this guy who was planning on going into the US Marshals. I went into the military, I became a Christian. You know, two to three years into the military my whole life changed in the sense of my direction. And now here I am going into studying religion and philosophy under these guys, some of whom are pacifists or advocates for Christian nonviolence?

Speaker 2: 11:57

I'm thinking of one or two professors in particular, and I mentioned them because it was so drastically different from myself and they would challenge me.

Speaker 2: 12:06

But they were you know, there were many, many things that were said and done and that I could kind of sit at their feet and just be just kind of taking their wisdom and chew on it, reflect on it and think. You know, this is so different from anything I've been exposed to. And you know, later, when I went into, I was working and did my internship at Vanderbilt Counseling Center and they would send the divinity students to me because of my background in religion and what I had known to be true when exposed to new information and new concepts, having to reevaluate some of the most foundational things of who I am as a person and what I believe Absolutely, which is terrifying it is.

Speaker 1: 12:56

It is, and yet it's also become something very popular among I guess you'd say what millennials and Gen Zers, where deconstruction is a big part of their life, but it's different than it was before, and I don't know if that's because of the lack of role models or not, but there is this aspect of deconstructing for either the sake of it, just to do it, because everyone's doing it, or because they really are having a struggle with understanding their faith in this new, challenging way, and they don't know what to do with that, with the torn down parts to rebuild, cause that's typically what happens right and that's happened throughout history, where people who have questioned their faith, they question it, get clear on their answer and then build it back up. I don't know if you're seeing the same thing today especially, we work with college students, so we're seeing a little bit of both, maybe the same thing today especially we work with college students, so we're seeing a little bit of both maybe.

Speaker 2: 13:49

Well, and when you first started talking about that, I have to admit that I think it's actually more difficult today because at least when I was coming up, and you know, I mean I was born in 1976. So when I was in college and stuff, it was still the 1990s and early 2000. So I think that at that time there's a little bit more stability around me, Like I didn't worry so much about what society believed was true or feeling some sense of security, moving forward and things like that.

Speaker 2: 14:17

But I hear it from a lot of the young people today it's one thing when you're going through that deconstructive process and just dealing with that alone, which is difficult, but then you add to it the social pressures and concerns and worries and this. You know what is true and how do we understand all these hot topics that are now out?

Speaker 2: 14:36

and about and you got riots and pandemics and all these different things going on. It just adds a whole level of chaos to it. So the context in which you're trying to process these things feels a little bit more intense, I think.

Speaker 1: 14:50

Yeah, and the family was more stable at that time. So when we talk about fathers and we talk about men in general, so what's the? I wonder what you see as the greatest weakness? I guess for men is today because we're trying to find men to look up to right, we want to find mentors, and I have heard this from some students, where either they just don't feel like they connect with these men or they don't see anyone who they can aspire to be. They grew up in a single parent home with the, which was mainly with mom. Maybe that was not as involved, so they don't really have a clear idea of what even to look for. So I'm wondering if it's the older men.

Speaker 1: 15:29

I think even the scriptures talk about this right Of how we should respect our elders, the older men, and receive their teaching. So that seems to be lacking. I remember we would go to the park and you'd have fun just talking to an older man there and he would just give you wisdom, and now it just seems like we don't care about their wisdom. We just want to do whatever we want. So there's this aspect on both sides. Maybe the older person also feels like they can't give them anything or that they don't want to receive their wisdom, and the younger ones feel like, well, you don't have anything to teach me, so I'm just going to do whatever I want right and learn the hard way.

Speaker 2: 16:05

But I do see that a lot in culture and it's kind of sad, honestly it is, and I think it's kind of a mixed bag, you know, because I even individuals who may want to share their wisdom. Like you know, you get the analogy of going to the park and talking. It's like now you talk to a stranger at the park and you're thinking you're gonna get accused of like saying something inappropriate, or the parents can be so paranoid let them talk to anybody other than you know their little friends and uh so there's a little bit more and I think this gets back to what I was saying about just a little bit more, um, paranoia and a sense of chaos, a little bit more in culture, um.

Speaker 2: 16:41

So I I do think that adds to it. You asked a very open-ended question about what's kind of the main concern regarding male leadership and men and stuff like that. I think that that's a very layered question because we could approach that from a number of different ways. I doubt we'd have time to get into even a fraction of it. I'm a big fan of. Thomas Sowell, have you heard of him Okay so.

Speaker 2: 17:07

I mean he would obviously come at this from a financial perspective and talk about economics and you know the development of the economy and welfare state and how a lot of that affected the male role in the house when, for example, like he would talk about early 20th century, you know in a lot of the minority neighborhoods there was stable families and you know it was only later on, with some of the changes in government policy that he at least attributes to directly having an impact on the no role model. That's just one of many examples. You know, and we've already talked a little bit more about just a sense of distrust with people. And some of it is warranted.

Speaker 1: 17:45

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:45

I think some of it is warranted but we, some of it is warranted but we, you know, working with college students, we hear a lot about, uh, hesitancy to date and you know more and more people are moving into um wanting to get married but afraid that they won't be able to get married, or they're having a hard time finding partners and using dating apps and all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 3: 18:05

So I think literally just had a conversation I have to deal with.

Speaker 2: 18:08

You know growing up.

Speaker 1: 18:09

Yeah, it's definitely changed the dynamics and we have more access to information. So, even if there are people that we're wanting to gain wisdom from, we have social media. So all you do is just follow a person that you like. You have that, but it still lacks that person to person connection, which I think is what we still need to be focusing on, but, I guess, for the audience, so they can understand or see something a little better.

Speaker 1: 18:32

If you've never had exposure to what a healthy male figure looks like, maybe we can help them look for certain characteristics of what a healthy male role model looks like, because we want both of what a healthy male role model looks like, because we want both strength and the ability to care for people. Well, right, and they both feed into each other. Right, in order for me to care for someone, well, I need to be strong. In order for me to be strong, I need to learn how to use that strength to care for others. So it seems that today they lean on one side or the other, right. So you have this hyper masculine man who's just very dominant, very controlling, very demanding. So you have that part. And then you have the other one who's super passive, not really motivated to do anything, and people are going to lean towards whatever they've seen growing up. So what does a healthy male role model look like? And this is important because it's going to set the stage for how are we experiencing God? Right, we call this the God image.

Speaker 1: 19:32

How you experience God in a relationship is different than your God concept, which is how you understand God. You know, for me, I had a very good God concept, like I knew the Bible. I knew what the Bible said about God, but I didn't have that experience of what is a relationship with Jesus actually look like. But I didn't have that experience of what is a relationship with Jesus actually look like until I got older and experienced relationships with professors or just mentors who taught me that they just listened. I never knew what that was like. It was just, basically, if God says, do this, I do that. But there's the relational component to it and that was. I'm very thankful that I, that God put men in that season, both seasons in my life, to understand those different aspects of him.

Speaker 2: 20:11

Yeah, and I think you were blessed to have that. It's not something that everybody has. Yeah, that's true, and man, you're asking these tough questions I really are Because you know, again, we could go a number of different ways with this. You asked what characteristics do we look for in healthy, strong men? And you know, of course, anytime you ask that question, you're going to get a biased response.

Speaker 2: 20:35

I'll try to be as balanced as I can in this perspective because I acknowledge you know again my background I tend to defer a little bit more towards that typical stereotypical masculine you know strong, you know supporter, protector, things like that.

Speaker 1: 20:50

Which are all good?

Speaker 2: 20:50

Yeah, which is all good Absolutely, but you know, of course, any extreme is going to be unhealthy in that way. But you know, we believe that God embodies both the best of masculine and feminine qualities and that he created male and female to be complementary in that way and to exhibit, naturally you know, traits that are different but complementary in that way, and to exhibit, naturally you know, traits that are different but complimentary in that way. I think, as far as just looking at male leadership, one of the things male, healthy male role models, one of the things I think people should seek out, is men who are solid in what they believe, like they have a good belief, well-formulated belief system, a worldview that they have spent time reflecting on, but not rigid in the sense that I can say this is what I believe in.

Speaker 2: 21:38

This is why I believe that, but I'm not going to become reactionary and upset with you if you ask me questions that even challenge my views, and I think that that is something that is a little bit more difficult to find. You can find people all day who have lots of opinions. Some people will get very aggressive with those opinions. It's hard to find someone who, like the truly wise person, is someone who says I have spent this time investing in myself and understanding these things, but I always remain open to the possibility that some of this could be wrong. I might need to adjust it or tweak it.

Speaker 2: 22:12

And the best way to do that is to listen to other people with different views, and by doing so it's that kind of iron sharpens iron mentality. So I think that having a healthy male role model who can listen attentively, respectfully disagree with you, explain why they believe what they believe, but also really interested in passing what they know on to other people and I think you know, conversely, it's difficult but, I think, worth the effort to also be a good student. You know you talked about how I'm kind of a nerd. I like to do education. You obviously as well. We're both pursuing more schooling.

Speaker 2: 22:50

Who can deal with some of the frustrations and the ignorance and the I don't know apathy sometimes that students exhibit you know confronting that in a healthy way, especially if that person you're trying to teach is a family member or someone that's going to be in your life for a long time.

Speaker 1: 23:22

Yeah, yeah, no, that's good, and I'm glad that you mentioned that because it basically sums up with this aspect of humility, right. And then there's this other part of being strong, and so what does it mean for a person to be strong? You and I have had a conversation about the Stoics, right, and how they had this mentality where you know you can't let your external circumstances affect how you think or how you live your life, but rather understand your emotions and be able to press through trials and tribulations and so on. So they have this mentality, which makes a lot of sense, and I'm wondering if any teaching from the Stoics contradicts scripture. It seems that a good amount of it lines up with it, but are there areas where I don't know about that, because this is making kind of this.

Speaker 1: 24:09

I don't know if I would say it's trending, but there is this idea of to be a stoic is to not let anything around you bother you. But it gets to the point where you don't even feel your emotions, and I think that's where men get confused. They think that being a stoic not letting your external circumstances affect you is to not feel anything. So I think that's where I see the leaning towards, but the real part of it is that you are able to feel what you're feeling and have dominion or some sort of control over it, or giving that over to God.

Speaker 2: 24:39

Yeah, and I think you know, of course we we see that all the time as a defense mechanism with clients where they try to resort to either intellectualizing their problems or numbing out to the point of being indifferent, like you're describing. And you know you can paint over it and say, well, this is I'm practicing Stoic philosophy, if you want to say that. But I do think that the four cardinal virtues of Stoic philosophy, if I'm understanding the writings correctly, you know wisdom, courage, temperance and justice. Justice there you go.

Speaker 2: 25:13

So I think when you look at those four virtues, we can say, and especially as you read and kind of flesh them out in the writings, you can say, yeah, a lot of this really lines up with the Christian worldview. However, considering that the emperor Marcus Aurelius was one of the great Stoic philosophers and he was also known for persecuting Christians in his time, clearly there's not a perfect balance, because you'd like to think that if he said, hey, they think a lot like I do and so maybe I shouldn't be feeding them to the lions in the arena. But I think there are some good concepts that we can take from that that very much match with the Christian worldview, that we can take from that that very much match with the christian worldview. Uh, one of the things we constantly deal with, you know, whether it's in families, um, you know in our, in our work, whether it's with employees and bosses and things, is this idea of boundaries, right and so that's one of the things that stoics talk a lot about.

Speaker 2: 26:03

And, uh, this concept of knowing where your limits of control end and things that are outside of your control, not allowing it to upset you, not allowing it to steal your peace, because we can get upset all day about things and vent and get frustrated. When it all comes down to it, it says, is that beyond my control? Is that, do I have any control whatsoever over this? Or is there something I can do to perhaps open a door or see if this could possibly change? But recognizing, there comes a point where I've done all that I can do and then we have to.

Speaker 2: 26:36

Just, you know, as the stoics say, amor fati. You know, we just have to kind of love fate, love what we can't control, and just embrace, uh, whatever comes of it. And I think you know jesus talks a lot about that when he speaks about anxiety Don't be anxious about tomorrow. Understanding our limitations, you can't worry about these things out of Cuba, to your height. He talks about the birds and the lilies and all the different things around us. Nature teaches us to live in the moment, to trust in God and to also recognize what is beyond our capability and our control. And that can be difficult because we live in a world where we very much want to control the world around us and other people.

Speaker 1: 27:16

Oh yeah, oh yeah, especially when you have no control of anything growing up. So if you grew up in an environment where you felt like you had no control, you don't realize until you get older how much you actually want to control and how frustrating it is not to be able to be in control of anything. But yeah, I bring up the Stoic philosophy because it's something that's appealing. I mean, it speaks to the flesh. Honestly, when I hear like yeah, yeah, that sounds good. And then, looking at scripture, then it teaches something that may be more convicting for me, where I'm like I don't know if I want to forgive, or I don't know if I want to go this route or whatever the case is. So it confronts us in a different way and that, essentially, is this aspect of sanctification. What does that process look like? So when we talk about men investing in other men, we're really talking about discipleship, right, and I think the way that I've been able to picture it in my head is that every person should have someone who's older than them, kind of mentoring them. They should have a band of brothers around them, so two, three people around them that's walking the same stage, and then someone who they're also mentoring themselves. So there's almost like this ingrained accountability for that person who's surrounding themselves with those men, because the person who's ahead of you has walked life in maybe a similar path but can speak to you about hey, here's what you could face on the next stage, so here's how you can prepare for it.

Speaker 1: 28:44

The ones who are going through things with you or who are in your life stage, they kind of understand, like you feel understood, because they're experiencing similar things as you are. And those who are coming behind you, you feel like, okay, well, I've got had these experiences. Is this something that I can pass on to someone else so I can help them so that they don't make the same mistakes? I do Right, do you see anywhere? Well, I mean, we see it in Scripture with Jesus discipling his disciples and then they go on and do the same thing. Paul and Timothy similar thing. So it's biblical, this aspect of being able to mentor those who are coming after us, and also for those of us to seek mentors and I don't know if that's emphasized enough to seek out mentors.

Speaker 2: 29:24

I think that's a really good point and I agree with you. I think that when we think of Christianity, as one of my theology professors used to say, christianity today has become a thin veneer of religious practices that leave the heart unchanged. And I think that in order to truly be a disciple not just not just say that we're Christians and be these lukewarm Christians who checks the boxes and maybe some external um, you know behaviors and say, yeah, okay, I'm Christian. But I think, in the sense, like you're saying, where we're challenging ourselves, we're saying, as I grow in sanctification uh yeah, I'm going to have steps that I take backwards and I'm going to have things out of my control to the point is that we get back on course and we continue that sanctification process. And I loved what you said about that kind of chain where we're mentoring other people, someone's mentoring us, and so on and so forth, and it's great, if that works out, that you've got both.

Speaker 2: 30:28

I'd love to have people that are mentoring and people that are mentoring me. What I have found is that different seasons of my life I might have one or none- that's a good point yeah that's true, but I do agree with you.

Speaker 2: 30:40

I think that that process of sanctification and growing in holiness is not emphasized enough as an essential component. Yes, of course we're saved by grace, through faith. We understand justification is through Christ and it's not works-based. However, of course the whole passage of james, my namesake, talks about. You know, faith without works is dead. So this it has to be both in you know as far as the sanctification process and uh part of that is taking it seriously yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:13

And I'm thinking through your different men in scripture that we would look at and we'd say you know, I think sometimes we discredit people for being human.

Speaker 1: 31:22

So I know a lot of people you know will bash David for his adultery, for the murder, and yet at the end of everything, as we look back on his life, he's described as the man after God's own heart.

Speaker 1: 31:37

Back on his life, he's described as the man after God's own heart. And I wonder if that also limits our ability to just be able to follow men who are honoring the Lord and serving the Lord, but also understand that we don't put them on a pedestal. And I think there's a caution there for us that we appreciate the men in our lives who have invested in our lives, but also that we don't get to that point of putting them on a pedestal and not to expect ourselves when others put us on a pedestal, because some people are very grateful and they'll say, oh, you changed my life and it feels good. It does feel good. But even as we go through that, we're reminded that first example you gave about being humble, and part of being humble is being able to accept something that someone else gives you, and then you pass that on to God Lord, this is because of you.

Speaker 2: 32:23

Lord, someone else gives you and then you pass that on to god. Lord, this is because of you, lord this because of you. Um, but yeah, I think those, those elements, play a key role here. You know, I'm reminded of something like uh, there was a book that john chris system, one of the early church founders in the late fourth or fifth century.

Speaker 2: 32:29

he wrote a book to pastors, like to other people who are going to be serving in churches and leadership, and he basically said that's like, let praise and criticism both roll off your back. And it can be. We can have our ego stroke by people oh, you're the best thing since sliced bread, and we don't really want to build this up. And we have to do both because we can also have people that'll be very critical and tear us down, and not letting either one affect us more than we should, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:55

Absolutely. This one guy gave the example of you should walk around in leadership like this, both fingers in your ears, because you're going to hear both sides and it's just a matter of which one is louder or which one you're allowed to kind of affect you.

Speaker 2: 33:09

Yeah, absolutely, and I think that we have to always be on guard for that, you know, and the things that we we think, not thinking too highly of ourselves, but at the same time it's just like the christian walk in general, holding an intention that I can say both at the same time that I'm a sinner and yet at the same time, I'm a unique creation of god and that I'm a.

Speaker 2: 33:29

I have an eternal spirit you know it's just holding that when you think about how amazing human beings are created in the image of God and trying to grow into the likeness of Christ and the work in Christ that was done, you really can start to think, wow, we're pretty amazing that God would do that. And then, on the other hand, holding the other side, also intention. I think that's true about a lot of things in our lives. That's true and touching on that point you mentioned, holding both.

Speaker 1: 33:54

Yeah, yeah, now, we were talking about the uh characteristics of men that are healthy. So humility was one of them. Uh, strength was another one. This is this kind of emotional strength to be able to manage one's emotions.

Speaker 1: 34:10

But one thing I'd like to is conviction, like a, a person who is willing to die for something that they believe. We see this with the disciples, right. The whole point, or the whole story of the gospel that was shared by these men was they're being discredited by some people today. They're saying, well, you know, they lied. Would they lie about something that actually didn't happen? They're willing to die for that. So that's a big argument for our faith is that these men die Like what they saw, they believed and they were willing to die for it. So I think that's one element of also a healthy male role model is that they have a strong conviction about something, anything, and it's good because it doesn't deter them from whatever mission it is. So if they love the Lord and they're called to a certain mission that God has for them, they're just committed to that. Nothing deters them from that.

Speaker 2: 35:02

Well and it's funny you mentioned that because I do remember the professors that I talked about earlier Someone had asked me once what I thought separated a good professor from some of those great professors, and I said and you know, passion comes from the Latin word, which means to suffer. So it's the things for which I'm willing to suffer, and that's comes back to this idea of conviction that you're talking about.

Speaker 2: 35:24

So having passion, whether it's passion in the concepts you're teaching on, in philosophy and religion, or whatever it may be, passion for your family, passion for your faith, your country that inspires people yeah yeah, if you're the guy that's, you know, I mean willing to die for your comrades, you know in war and you know fighting alongside, you know men and women in the armed forces and things. I mean that's. We give medals to people like that we, we respect and honor people like that, and I think that it doesn't have to be quite so dramatic as well, sacrifice can also be.

Speaker 2: 35:59

you know the house mom who's making sure her kids are taken care of and fed, and you know teaching them and you know the parents who do that and male role models. You know that they're taking their role as the leader and priest of their family seriously and knowing that they're going to be held to a higher judgment because they have a responsibility by god. And how many men take that seriously? Even the men who stick around we've talked about without male role models, but even the ones who stick around, how many of them take that seriously and say, yes, this is truly a calling to be a husband and a father and to do that well yeah, like physically present, but not emotionally, spiritually, mentally present there.

Speaker 1: 36:41

Yeah well, we've talked about all the good things, is there one? Let's maybe say one or two characteristics are just red flags, right, like if you see this and man maybe that you admire, or something like that.

Speaker 2: 36:57

Um, here's something to look out for yeah, you know, we've been talking a lot about humility, so I would say, obviously, the first thing comes to mind is pride.

Speaker 1: 37:06

Yeah, hubris, uh what does that look like?

Speaker 2: 37:09

I think it looks like individuals who don't have a solid sense of themselves. They're braggadocious, they're easily offended, they're emotionally unstable, angry. Those are individuals who don't have a solid anchor in themselves, and so they're. As we've seen in psychology, their ego strength is pretty poorly formed. They'll have enough poor self to really manage their own internal system.

Speaker 2: 37:34

So I think that would be one of the biggest things that I saw with poor male role models growing up was this, you know, they would tend to resort towards anger and criticism of others and trying to tear other people down to build themselves up, and I think the healthy person can look at that individual and see right through it. But there's far more examples, I think, of unhealthy people that will join in and then it becomes kind of an echo chamber where they all, just you know, agree with each other and validated in their aggression and pride and whatnot. So, I think that is one of the biggest risks.

Speaker 1: 38:11

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:11

What would you say?

Speaker 1: 38:13

Yeah, I would agree with that, and pride is kind of tied to this aspect of anger. So someone who is just constantly angry angry they can't really enjoy anything in their lives because there's always something wrong right. So someone who complains a lot like that's also a big thing, like they have no, um no, that's what I'm looking for sense of what's within my control, what's not in my control. So there's this aspect of they're angry at everything because everything's out of their control, or they're complaining about everything because the things that you're complaining about are not within your control. And it's really hard, it's a temptation it really is, to become angry about the things that are outside of your control. And I think there's a lesson there for all of us about this aspect of pride and being angry, just having this spirit of anger towards everything and anything.

Speaker 2: 39:02

Yeah, I think that you kind of chuckled me because I realize you know we work with colleagues and I know I'll have colleagues come into my office and people that we work with and they'll vent and get frustrated. And I'm laughing because there has to be and I'm that person sometimes right. We all get to that place and we want someone to empathize with us. We want someone.

Speaker 2: 39:22

So I think that there is some degree of empathy that might look like you're joining and it's not becoming that echo chamber I've talked about. If somebody comes in and they're, you know, complaining in my office and they're frustrated about something they'd heard. And I start talking about, well, your limits of control.

Speaker 3: 39:39

You really shouldn't be upset about that Right, not the best question.

Speaker 2: 39:42

Yeah, who's gonna wanna come to?

Speaker 1: 39:44

someone like that that's true. That's a good point.

Speaker 2: 39:46

So it's finding that balance and recognizing our own humility of I've been there and I've had these days where I'm frustrated and upset and I know my wife is a good example of that. She's a great support system in that way, because we'll all get into those complaint modes. But a healthy person and a healthy man, it's not a regular occurrence. It's more the exception rather than the norm, and they usually quickly snap out of it.

Speaker 1: 40:11

Yeah, yeah, and that's true, and that's a big part of it too, because we're not looking at these one times that it happened. Because, yeah, to your point, we all do lose our cool. I would say 90% of my time as a dad is great, and then there's the 10% where I'm like, ah, I just lose my cool, right. So there's that aspect and I look at them like, ah, I still want to do better, right.

Speaker 1: 40:32

But the spirit of anger, the spirit of frustration, the spirit of complaining I think it's more so that so that's more common than the other part, where it's more in the control and is able to kind of communicate clearly, whatever it is that they're experiencing, and sometimes it's that like I can't even communicate what I want to say and it comes out in frustration, it comes out in anger and you know, speaking of healthy male role models when you grew up and you don't know what that actually looks like to communicate how you feel. It comes out in different ways through stress, it comes out through anger, comes out through a lot of different ways.

Speaker 2: 41:07

Well, and you mentioned something that I wanted to mention earlier that I think really speaks to not only what we should look for in healthy male role models, but also what we as men should strive for as well, and that's clarity of thought. And that comes back to what you're saying, because I think clarity of thought in the sense not only of what I believe but also, you know, as Christ talks about taking thoughts captive. And of course, there's a whole wing of psychology. You know, cognitive therapy built on this idea that how we choose to interpret things in the lens through which we view these different events in our lives and adversity will directly impact the way we feel and behave. And so having clarity of thought, not only already pre-formulated and within us, that we've worked on it in the sanctification process, through prayer and worship and other spiritual disciplines, so that when times of testing come, we find that we're well prepared for it. And so I think you know part of that is having a good sense and appreciating how important it is to think rightly about things.

Speaker 1: 42:08

That's good.

Speaker 1: 42:10

And I have to say this one, just because you mentioned it and you have shown this to me as well that aspect of empathy, because I think so, part of being a healthy man, healthy male role model, is having empathy. And here's the way that I picture it Someone who has suffered greatly understands the suffering of others, so they're able to sit there with them, understand what they're going through and just be there, be a calm presence in the midst of their own storm. And you know, and I'm thankful for that, you know for your friendship and for being able to show that to me, and I think that's a big part for men to seek out other men who can listen to you and just be there with you and I think about my sons too is like, when they're frustrated, instead of me getting frustrated in return because they're frustrated, I can sit there and calmly and just ask questions, just kind of help them regulate a little bit and just be there with them, right, but there is that. I think that's a big part of a healthy male role model.

Speaker 2: 43:07

And, if I can add to that just a little bit, I think that sometimes we have this idea that if I haven't suffered in exactly the same way as this other person, I won't understand. And I think that's a faulty view, because we can excuse ourselves from being imperfect or being available to people because we might say, well, I've never gone through that, so it's not my place to be a support. They need to find someone who's going through that.

Speaker 2: 43:32

or knows what that's like, as human beings we've all suffered and we all understand loss and pain and things like that. So I think that we can draw on that experience, even if it might not be exactly alike.

Speaker 1: 43:46

Um, so I I just kind of would add that, because I think we can use that to let ourselves off the hook a lot of times yeah if I haven't experienced exactly what someone else is experiencing yeah, and, and the lack of empathy is that is, I don't want to feel what you're feeling, so I just disconnect and pull back right. Um, so it creates that discomfort with actually feeling emotions. And I remember when I was first learning, just kind of like the idea of god being just loving and gracious for me is like yeah, yeah, that sounds kind of weak, like I want to be tough Latino background, you know that. So there was those little gist of machismo. I'm like this is not right. But once you experience it with other people, you're like no, this does line up with God's character, this does line up with how he treats his sons and daughters, and you see it through the Old Testament, you see it in the Old Testament, you see it in the New Testament. He is present, he's calm and he's there for us and he's able to listen to our troubles.

Speaker 1: 44:43

So I think we covered a good amount of why we need men mentors, why men need mentors in their lives, and how they can help you understand these other aspects of God that maybe don't seem attainable to you or don't seem to make sense. Right, there's these aspects of God that might make more sense to you. See, if you can see the flip side. So if you saw only the caring, loving and understanding part, can you also see the justice, truth aspect of God as well, that the truth needs to be defended, justice needs to be applied, whatever that looks like in a certain situation, but that you're able to find that balance between both. So look for what is it you need right, and I think I needed to see have men in my life who were able to share, show caring, understanding and patience, even throughout my own journey.

Speaker 2: 45:35

Yeah, and I appreciate that we've talked about this topic because I like how we've touched on things that we both experienced, but also, I think, what we would want to look for in healthy male role models to have as people in our lives and also as men ourselves, how to embody that. I get that looks like, you know, like kind of the goal to tell us of what we strive to achieve ourselves, and I think it's all, it's both and it should be all of it. So, yeah, lots of different factors that we've passed on and hopefully somebody will glean something helpful from us.

Speaker 1: 46:10

Yeah, absolutely I think they will. We're going for man, all right, guys. Well, thank you so much for joining in today, and remember to subscribe to the podcast. If you've been listening, I'm sure you have You're here today. If this is your first time, you're free to subscribe and also share with others. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time.